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On May 15 2012 08:38 captainwaffles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 08:12 Severedevil wrote:On May 12 2012 11:21 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 12 2012 11:08 Toadvine wrote:On May 12 2012 10:42 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 12 2012 09:58 Toadvine wrote:On May 12 2012 06:24 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 12 2012 04:01 Toadvine wrote:On May 11 2012 20:25 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 11 2012 20:18 ntssauce wrote:
[quote]
colossus comes out faster too! think about it . we barely cranked out vikings to get rind of colossus timing push. now it coems 10 secs faster Yeah, funny how nobody has mentioned that. That's what I mean by huge. plus observers already got a cost cut. It's the cheapest form of map hack in the game. If you guys really think observer build time affects colossus timing in any way (especially in PvT), then I guarantee you won't even notice the buff at your level of play. Brilliant argument man. Going after my level of play with no analysis from your part. It's really simple. Obs and coli come from same place. Cut the obs cost and build time and colis come way faster. Do you have any idea how hard it is to stop a 3 coli, 6 gate timing? You literally need to pull scvs or you die.... Forget about building a third. And you must figure out it's the all in version of the build by feeling the map, while protoss gets cheaper and cheaper map hacks (obs). I was trying to say that you were simply wrong, in a more roundabout way. I'll elaborate, if you still don't understand your error. In general, Colossus tech timing isn't affected by build times, but by gas costs. So, cheaper observers do help get Colossi out faster. Faster-building observers don't make any real difference. Even in a situation where you start your Robo Bay the moment your Robo Facility finishes, that's still 65 seconds to build two observers, which is almost enough given one chronoboost. So, in this specific situation which doesn't really come up often (you don't really need two observers while rushing for Colossus tech), it would make Colossi appear about 5 seconds earlier. Note that the build you're complaining about does not do this, and is 100% unaffected by the build time reduction. If anything, the obs build time reduction has the greatest impact on PvP, where Robo build time is extremely precious, and a lot of observer sniping takes place. In modern PvT, however, nobody is going to lose sleep over it. You need like 2-3 Colossi in order to secure your third, and then you can make however many observers you desire. By the way, if you're now complaining about the cost reduction, then you're like a year and a half behind schedule. Where are you getting 5 seconds from? Why wouldn't protoss make 2 obs? It's very common with almost any build. Post a replay of your own or better yet, a pro. Your made up numbers don't impress me. Coli builds are just one thing you can do. There is no way to say it won't have a big affect on the matchup. Observers are very powerful units. Give the Terran the ability to scan at 40 energy (10 energy difference) and we'll see how much protoss cry. I bring up observer cost because it's just 1 of a series of buffs protoss has received which are unnecessary. All these buffs together COMPOUND. A Robo Bay takes 65 seconds to build. Before the patch, two observers with one CB would take 70 seconds. That's 5 seconds of Robo Facility time not spent on a Colossus. And this is something practically nobody does - making a Robo Bay immediately after the Facility finishes, and then making two observers. If you're going for a Colossus all-in, you don't have gas to spare for a second observer, nor do you really need one. You were whining about Colossi coming out earlier because of this change, and I'm wasting my time explaining why you're wrong, because you can't even be arsed to research the basics of Protoss play. Also, if you're honestly complaining about the observer cost reduction, then you're probably one of the players who thought 5 rax reaper and BBS were fine. Amusingly enough, the same patch that reduced observer cost also removed VR speed, in one of the most baffling balance decisions in the history of SC2. Guess too many 4v4s were lost to speedrays, sigh. Obs builds about as fast as a chronoboosted probe? No. A chrono'd observer builds slightly slower than an unchrono'd probe. lmao. Do you know what happens when dts show up in your base (as t) and you're not prepared? You scan. You die if you've been muling properly. But you should die to that stuff if you don't prepare, shit I mean its just 1 or 2 turrets and then you just go win after saving some scans.
Or if you're actually in a position where DT's would end the game/do serious damage and you have no ability to scout it/deal with it, you leave a scan up at around 7~ before you make a blind turret/wait and assume dt's arent coming.
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On May 15 2012 08:52 -TesteR- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 05:05 Talack wrote:
Tried doing what day9 suggested in his TvP video.
Came in, tried to do damage while expanding (as always) would trade armies (usually ontop)
Delay ups, get a better economy with 1 more bases (i've been up 2-3 on protoss a couple times)
Keep trading armies to prevent him from getting lots of t3.
Get better upgrades (lucky with drops and get a 2-2 vs 1-1 advantage lots of times)
Still...does...not...matter. This matchup is completely broken for protoss late game. Blizzard is seeing something in these games that I CANNOT replicate at all. I have gotten every advantage I possibly can, i've had the right army composition and still it just comes down to them eventually getting an army that you cannot do anything at all against. The only time you win is when the protoss is extra extra greedy and you just roll over them, well that's not fun at all. That might as well have been an all-in because they played so bad in those situations.
(Mid-masters for those herp-de-derps wondering) replay please, i find this scenario hard to believe
Look at the recent Day9 Daily with Select, it was like 2-3 weeks ago I think, but he barely wins a game where he was completely ahead in, because he didn't absolutely perfectly fight the protoss army.
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Warp in should only we available with the warp prism. Warp in is honestly so retarded is basically single handidly ruins Starcraft 2, not even joking in the slightest. Can you imaging playing TvP where when you have an engagement and both armies are destroyed there isn't 20 chargelots instantly in your base? Can you imagine watching PvP where their is actually a defenders advantage instead of how BS it currently is. Blizzard needs to just admit warp gates we're broken from the start and balance protoss around non warp gates in HoTS.
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On May 15 2012 08:58 Blyadischa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 08:52 -TesteR- wrote:On May 13 2012 05:05 Talack wrote:
Tried doing what day9 suggested in his TvP video.
Came in, tried to do damage while expanding (as always) would trade armies (usually ontop)
Delay ups, get a better economy with 1 more bases (i've been up 2-3 on protoss a couple times)
Keep trading armies to prevent him from getting lots of t3.
Get better upgrades (lucky with drops and get a 2-2 vs 1-1 advantage lots of times)
Still...does...not...matter. This matchup is completely broken for protoss late game. Blizzard is seeing something in these games that I CANNOT replicate at all. I have gotten every advantage I possibly can, i've had the right army composition and still it just comes down to them eventually getting an army that you cannot do anything at all against. The only time you win is when the protoss is extra extra greedy and you just roll over them, well that's not fun at all. That might as well have been an all-in because they played so bad in those situations.
(Mid-masters for those herp-de-derps wondering) replay please, i find this scenario hard to believe Look at the recent Day9 Daily with Select, it was like 2-3 weeks ago I think, but he barely wins a game where he was completely ahead in, because he didn't absolutely perfectly fight the protoss army.
I'll do better than one replay.
Look at any pro-level TvP.
User was warned for this post
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If P is expected to defense up and get to late-game, they can do it easily. Defend drops with HT, defend ground rushes with FF. Get observers out and they are covered and prepared for everything (more easily now with faster build time).
What can P do though? They can put all their production at your new expansion and deny it. They can harass while a skirmish is going on, and it doesn't even matter if they win that skirmish if their strategy is to harass your expansion.
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On May 12 2012 10:42 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 09:58 Toadvine wrote:On May 12 2012 06:24 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 12 2012 04:01 Toadvine wrote:On May 11 2012 20:25 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 11 2012 20:18 ntssauce wrote:On May 11 2012 20:15 YaShock wrote:On May 11 2012 20:05 TRaFFiC wrote:
"this match up remains balanced according to the games we are seeing, tournament results and ladder data"
Quote from blizzard, right before protoss receives a huge buff. Anyone else thinking wtf? "huge buff" You mean 10 second faster Observer build time? Yeah that's so huge, I can't even imagine what will the Terran players do with mass Observers, so imba colossus comes out faster too! think about it . we barely cranked out vikings to get rind of colossus timing push. now it coems 10 secs faster Yeah, funny how nobody has mentioned that. That's what I mean by huge. plus observers already got a cost cut. It's the cheapest form of map hack in the game. If you guys really think observer build time affects colossus timing in any way (especially in PvT), then I guarantee you won't even notice the buff at your level of play. Brilliant argument man. Going after my level of play with no analysis from your part. It's really simple. Obs and coli come from same place. Cut the obs cost and build time and colis come way faster. Do you have any idea how hard it is to stop a 3 coli, 6 gate timing? You literally need to pull scvs or you die.... Forget about building a third. And you must figure out it's the all in version of the build by feeling the map, while protoss gets cheaper and cheaper map hacks (obs). I was trying to say that you were simply wrong, in a more roundabout way. I'll elaborate, if you still don't understand your error. In general, Colossus tech timing isn't affected by build times, but by gas costs. So, cheaper observers do help get Colossi out faster. Faster-building observers don't make any real difference. Even in a situation where you start your Robo Bay the moment your Robo Facility finishes, that's still 65 seconds to build two observers, which is almost enough given one chronoboost. So, in this specific situation which doesn't really come up often (you don't really need two observers while rushing for Colossus tech), it would make Colossi appear about 5 seconds earlier. Note that the build you're complaining about does not do this, and is 100% unaffected by the build time reduction. If anything, the obs build time reduction has the greatest impact on PvP, where Robo build time is extremely precious, and a lot of observer sniping takes place. In modern PvT, however, nobody is going to lose sleep over it. You need like 2-3 Colossi in order to secure your third, and then you can make however many observers you desire. By the way, if you're now complaining about the cost reduction, then you're like a year and a half behind schedule. Where are you getting 5 seconds from? Why wouldn't protoss make 2 obs? It's very common with almost any build. Post a replay of your own or better yet, a pro. Your made up numbers don't impress me. Coli builds are just one thing you can do. There is no way to say it won't have a big affect on the matchup. Observers are very powerful units. Give the Terran the ability to scan at 40 energy (10 energy difference) and we'll see how much protoss cry. I bring up observer cost because it's just 1 of a series of buffs protoss has received which are unnecessary. All these buffs together COMPOUND.
I think its the compounding of the little buffs, but also its the compounding of these things with the fact that protoss players are finally figuring their race out ((last race to do so)) and all those little buffs ((that they got, for being slow to develop their race, to help them keep up with the other two races)) are exponentially stronger now.
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Ironically I'm now being beaten by gateway-based all-in's more than anything else at the moment, contrary to what Blizzard says about TvP. Greedy toss players saying Terran favored early are who people are listening to I guess.
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On May 13 2012 05:05 Talack wrote:
Tried doing what day9 suggested in his TvP video.
Came in, tried to do damage while expanding (as always) would trade armies (usually ontop)
Delay ups, get a better economy with 1 more bases (i've been up 2-3 on protoss a couple times)
Keep trading armies to prevent him from getting lots of t3.
Get better upgrades (lucky with drops and get a 2-2 vs 1-1 advantage lots of times)
Still...does...not...matter. This matchup is completely broken for protoss late game. Blizzard is seeing something in these games that I CANNOT replicate at all. I have gotten every advantage I possibly can, i've had the right army composition and still it just comes down to them eventually getting an army that you cannot do anything at all against. The only time you win is when the protoss is extra extra greedy and you just roll over them, well that's not fun at all. That might as well have been an all-in because they played so bad in those situations.
(Mid-masters for those herp-de-derps wondering)
same here,
played a game today where I was ahead relatively all game, denied his third three times, constantly out producing, expanding, and he still slowly got to t3 (without ever going on the offensive...) and rolled over me with about a billion psyonic storms (i had 10 ghosts at the time)
I'm only platinum though, so my mechanics aren't as good as a master's level player, but the end result is the same, no matter what I did, no matter how big of a lead I had, it was slowly worn away by a player that did nothing to prevent me
i was even on 4 bases to 2 at one point, didn't matter.
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On May 15 2012 11:22 sGs.Stregon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 10:42 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 12 2012 09:58 Toadvine wrote:On May 12 2012 06:24 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 12 2012 04:01 Toadvine wrote:On May 11 2012 20:25 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 11 2012 20:18 ntssauce wrote:On May 11 2012 20:15 YaShock wrote:On May 11 2012 20:05 TRaFFiC wrote:
"this match up remains balanced according to the games we are seeing, tournament results and ladder data"
Quote from blizzard, right before protoss receives a huge buff. Anyone else thinking wtf? "huge buff" You mean 10 second faster Observer build time? Yeah that's so huge, I can't even imagine what will the Terran players do with mass Observers, so imba colossus comes out faster too! think about it . we barely cranked out vikings to get rind of colossus timing push. now it coems 10 secs faster Yeah, funny how nobody has mentioned that. That's what I mean by huge. plus observers already got a cost cut. It's the cheapest form of map hack in the game. If you guys really think observer build time affects colossus timing in any way (especially in PvT), then I guarantee you won't even notice the buff at your level of play. Brilliant argument man. Going after my level of play with no analysis from your part. It's really simple. Obs and coli come from same place. Cut the obs cost and build time and colis come way faster. Do you have any idea how hard it is to stop a 3 coli, 6 gate timing? You literally need to pull scvs or you die.... Forget about building a third. And you must figure out it's the all in version of the build by feeling the map, while protoss gets cheaper and cheaper map hacks (obs). I was trying to say that you were simply wrong, in a more roundabout way. I'll elaborate, if you still don't understand your error. In general, Colossus tech timing isn't affected by build times, but by gas costs. So, cheaper observers do help get Colossi out faster. Faster-building observers don't make any real difference. Even in a situation where you start your Robo Bay the moment your Robo Facility finishes, that's still 65 seconds to build two observers, which is almost enough given one chronoboost. So, in this specific situation which doesn't really come up often (you don't really need two observers while rushing for Colossus tech), it would make Colossi appear about 5 seconds earlier. Note that the build you're complaining about does not do this, and is 100% unaffected by the build time reduction. If anything, the obs build time reduction has the greatest impact on PvP, where Robo build time is extremely precious, and a lot of observer sniping takes place. In modern PvT, however, nobody is going to lose sleep over it. You need like 2-3 Colossi in order to secure your third, and then you can make however many observers you desire. By the way, if you're now complaining about the cost reduction, then you're like a year and a half behind schedule. Where are you getting 5 seconds from? Why wouldn't protoss make 2 obs? It's very common with almost any build. Post a replay of your own or better yet, a pro. Your made up numbers don't impress me. Coli builds are just one thing you can do. There is no way to say it won't have a big affect on the matchup. Observers are very powerful units. Give the Terran the ability to scan at 40 energy (10 energy difference) and we'll see how much protoss cry. I bring up observer cost because it's just 1 of a series of buffs protoss has received which are unnecessary. All these buffs together COMPOUND. I think its the compounding of the little buffs, but also its the compounding of these things with the fact that protoss players are finally figuring their race out ((last race to do so)) and all those little buffs ((that they got, for being slow to develop their race, to help them keep up with the other two races)) are exponentially stronger now.
So, you're saying Protoss is the most complicated and strategically challenging of all 3 races?
I agree, good post.
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On May 15 2012 11:36 TrickyGilligan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 11:22 sGs.Stregon wrote:On May 12 2012 10:42 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 12 2012 09:58 Toadvine wrote:On May 12 2012 06:24 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 12 2012 04:01 Toadvine wrote:On May 11 2012 20:25 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 11 2012 20:18 ntssauce wrote:On May 11 2012 20:15 YaShock wrote:On May 11 2012 20:05 TRaFFiC wrote:
"this match up remains balanced according to the games we are seeing, tournament results and ladder data"
Quote from blizzard, right before protoss receives a huge buff. Anyone else thinking wtf? "huge buff" You mean 10 second faster Observer build time? Yeah that's so huge, I can't even imagine what will the Terran players do with mass Observers, so imba colossus comes out faster too! think about it . we barely cranked out vikings to get rind of colossus timing push. now it coems 10 secs faster Yeah, funny how nobody has mentioned that. That's what I mean by huge. plus observers already got a cost cut. It's the cheapest form of map hack in the game. If you guys really think observer build time affects colossus timing in any way (especially in PvT), then I guarantee you won't even notice the buff at your level of play. Brilliant argument man. Going after my level of play with no analysis from your part. It's really simple. Obs and coli come from same place. Cut the obs cost and build time and colis come way faster. Do you have any idea how hard it is to stop a 3 coli, 6 gate timing? You literally need to pull scvs or you die.... Forget about building a third. And you must figure out it's the all in version of the build by feeling the map, while protoss gets cheaper and cheaper map hacks (obs). I was trying to say that you were simply wrong, in a more roundabout way. I'll elaborate, if you still don't understand your error. In general, Colossus tech timing isn't affected by build times, but by gas costs. So, cheaper observers do help get Colossi out faster. Faster-building observers don't make any real difference. Even in a situation where you start your Robo Bay the moment your Robo Facility finishes, that's still 65 seconds to build two observers, which is almost enough given one chronoboost. So, in this specific situation which doesn't really come up often (you don't really need two observers while rushing for Colossus tech), it would make Colossi appear about 5 seconds earlier. Note that the build you're complaining about does not do this, and is 100% unaffected by the build time reduction. If anything, the obs build time reduction has the greatest impact on PvP, where Robo build time is extremely precious, and a lot of observer sniping takes place. In modern PvT, however, nobody is going to lose sleep over it. You need like 2-3 Colossi in order to secure your third, and then you can make however many observers you desire. By the way, if you're now complaining about the cost reduction, then you're like a year and a half behind schedule. Where are you getting 5 seconds from? Why wouldn't protoss make 2 obs? It's very common with almost any build. Post a replay of your own or better yet, a pro. Your made up numbers don't impress me. Coli builds are just one thing you can do. There is no way to say it won't have a big affect on the matchup. Observers are very powerful units. Give the Terran the ability to scan at 40 energy (10 energy difference) and we'll see how much protoss cry. I bring up observer cost because it's just 1 of a series of buffs protoss has received which are unnecessary. All these buffs together COMPOUND. I think its the compounding of the little buffs, but also its the compounding of these things with the fact that protoss players are finally figuring their race out ((last race to do so)) and all those little buffs ((that they got, for being slow to develop their race, to help them keep up with the other two races)) are exponentially stronger now. So, you're saying Protoss is the most complicated and strategically challenging of all 3 races? I agree, good post.
read "complicated and strategically challenging" as "abusable"
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On May 15 2012 11:33 renaissanceMAN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 05:05 Talack wrote:
Tried doing what day9 suggested in his TvP video.
Came in, tried to do damage while expanding (as always) would trade armies (usually ontop)
Delay ups, get a better economy with 1 more bases (i've been up 2-3 on protoss a couple times)
Keep trading armies to prevent him from getting lots of t3.
Get better upgrades (lucky with drops and get a 2-2 vs 1-1 advantage lots of times)
Still...does...not...matter. This matchup is completely broken for protoss late game. Blizzard is seeing something in these games that I CANNOT replicate at all. I have gotten every advantage I possibly can, i've had the right army composition and still it just comes down to them eventually getting an army that you cannot do anything at all against. The only time you win is when the protoss is extra extra greedy and you just roll over them, well that's not fun at all. That might as well have been an all-in because they played so bad in those situations.
(Mid-masters for those herp-de-derps wondering) same here, played a game today where I was ahead relatively all game, denied his third three times, constantly out producing, expanding, and he still slowly got to t3 (without ever going on the offensive...) and rolled over me with about a billion psyonic storms (i had 10 ghosts at the time) I'm only platinum though, so my mechanics aren't as good as a master's level player, but the end result is the same, no matter what I did, no matter how big of a lead I had, it was slowly worn away by a player that did nothing to prevent me i was even on 4 bases to 2 at one point, didn't matter.
This is not a "I lost a ladder game to toss so I'll come whine about it thread". Just because you're bad at the mu doesn't mean everyone is. I'm glad blizzard relies on stats rather than anecdotes from biased platinum terrans who think the mu is impossible late game and then unsurprisingly lose in late game. I see so many posts using words/phrases like 'impossible' and 'you can only win if the protoss is terrible'. It's not surprising you lose with mindsets like that and it's just statistically not true. You might lose every game that goes late because your mindset is freaking horrible but not everyone's is. Stop making excuses for your losses and improve instead, you're nowhere near good enough to be complaining (same to the mid-masters guy).
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In nearly every episode of the metagame, certain races has needed to do damage or pressure at certain points of the game. It's not like this is news. I don't see why the OP is complaining.
And if you can't win in a straight up fight vs P use your mobility like you have said we Z's should do for ages when we complain we can't win straight up fights.
Yes, the metagame is changing, maybe protoss will destroy you if you continue doing the same as usual (look at terran metagame, it has changed the least since beta, so its not really surprising they complain, they aren't used to changing their style ... I am not saying they haven't changed, I am just saying they havent met large problems with a matchup yet... about time if you ask me).
I complain too much about matchups myself, so I shouldnt say anything. But new cool styles, and better gamers are produced when facing problems. Seeing one race rice to the top, can be good for the other races in some indirect way.
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On May 15 2012 11:33 renaissanceMAN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 05:05 Talack wrote:
Tried doing what day9 suggested in his TvP video.
Came in, tried to do damage while expanding (as always) would trade armies (usually ontop)
Delay ups, get a better economy with 1 more bases (i've been up 2-3 on protoss a couple times)
Keep trading armies to prevent him from getting lots of t3.
Get better upgrades (lucky with drops and get a 2-2 vs 1-1 advantage lots of times)
Still...does...not...matter. This matchup is completely broken for protoss late game. Blizzard is seeing something in these games that I CANNOT replicate at all. I have gotten every advantage I possibly can, i've had the right army composition and still it just comes down to them eventually getting an army that you cannot do anything at all against. The only time you win is when the protoss is extra extra greedy and you just roll over them, well that's not fun at all. That might as well have been an all-in because they played so bad in those situations.
(Mid-masters for those herp-de-derps wondering) same here, played a game today where I was ahead relatively all game, denied his third three times, constantly out producing, expanding, and he still slowly got to t3 (without ever going on the offensive...) and rolled over me with about a billion psyonic storms (i had 10 ghosts at the time) I'm only platinum though, so my mechanics aren't as good as a master's level player, but the end result is the same, no matter what I did, no matter how big of a lead I had, it was slowly worn away by a player that did nothing to prevent me i was even on 4 bases to 2 at one point, didn't matter.
I would very much like to see this replay.
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On May 15 2012 11:36 TrickyGilligan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 11:22 sGs.Stregon wrote:On May 12 2012 10:42 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 12 2012 09:58 Toadvine wrote:On May 12 2012 06:24 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 12 2012 04:01 Toadvine wrote:On May 11 2012 20:25 TRaFFiC wrote:On May 11 2012 20:18 ntssauce wrote:On May 11 2012 20:15 YaShock wrote:On May 11 2012 20:05 TRaFFiC wrote:
"this match up remains balanced according to the games we are seeing, tournament results and ladder data"
Quote from blizzard, right before protoss receives a huge buff. Anyone else thinking wtf? "huge buff" You mean 10 second faster Observer build time? Yeah that's so huge, I can't even imagine what will the Terran players do with mass Observers, so imba colossus comes out faster too! think about it . we barely cranked out vikings to get rind of colossus timing push. now it coems 10 secs faster Yeah, funny how nobody has mentioned that. That's what I mean by huge. plus observers already got a cost cut. It's the cheapest form of map hack in the game. If you guys really think observer build time affects colossus timing in any way (especially in PvT), then I guarantee you won't even notice the buff at your level of play. Brilliant argument man. Going after my level of play with no analysis from your part. It's really simple. Obs and coli come from same place. Cut the obs cost and build time and colis come way faster. Do you have any idea how hard it is to stop a 3 coli, 6 gate timing? You literally need to pull scvs or you die.... Forget about building a third. And you must figure out it's the all in version of the build by feeling the map, while protoss gets cheaper and cheaper map hacks (obs). I was trying to say that you were simply wrong, in a more roundabout way. I'll elaborate, if you still don't understand your error. In general, Colossus tech timing isn't affected by build times, but by gas costs. So, cheaper observers do help get Colossi out faster. Faster-building observers don't make any real difference. Even in a situation where you start your Robo Bay the moment your Robo Facility finishes, that's still 65 seconds to build two observers, which is almost enough given one chronoboost. So, in this specific situation which doesn't really come up often (you don't really need two observers while rushing for Colossus tech), it would make Colossi appear about 5 seconds earlier. Note that the build you're complaining about does not do this, and is 100% unaffected by the build time reduction. If anything, the obs build time reduction has the greatest impact on PvP, where Robo build time is extremely precious, and a lot of observer sniping takes place. In modern PvT, however, nobody is going to lose sleep over it. You need like 2-3 Colossi in order to secure your third, and then you can make however many observers you desire. By the way, if you're now complaining about the cost reduction, then you're like a year and a half behind schedule. Where are you getting 5 seconds from? Why wouldn't protoss make 2 obs? It's very common with almost any build. Post a replay of your own or better yet, a pro. Your made up numbers don't impress me. Coli builds are just one thing you can do. There is no way to say it won't have a big affect on the matchup. Observers are very powerful units. Give the Terran the ability to scan at 40 energy (10 energy difference) and we'll see how much protoss cry. I bring up observer cost because it's just 1 of a series of buffs protoss has received which are unnecessary. All these buffs together COMPOUND. I think its the compounding of the little buffs, but also its the compounding of these things with the fact that protoss players are finally figuring their race out ((last race to do so)) and all those little buffs ((that they got, for being slow to develop their race, to help them keep up with the other two races)) are exponentially stronger now. So, you're saying Protoss is the most complicated and strategically challenging of all 3 races? I agree, good post.
If by most complicated and strategically challenging you mean has the most players who would rather sit around Q(-.-Q)ing about how OP one of the other races are, then yes, it is very complicated and strategically challenging.. But the reality is, while Terran and Zerg were figuring their races out, protoss was just doing the same things they did from beta, so they Q(-.-Q)ed about how imba everything was, got lots of little buffs, and just now are starting to figure their race out ((while making fun of other races for laying some Q(-.-Q) down, as if protoss players have never done it, and when they admit they have done it it has always been justified, and nobody else should be allowed to Q(-.-Q) at all, because obviously its not justified if your not a protoss player)).. **Terran has had to constantly try different things, and sure they have settled into alot of cheesey all-ins, but that is were they have been forced to play from, because they have had lots of nerfs - Zerg really started figuring their race out because of stephano**
On May 15 2012 11:51 Ravnemesteren wrote:
In nearly every episode of the metagame, certain races has needed to do damage or pressure at certain points of the game. It's not like this is news. I don't see why the OP is complaining.
And if you can't win in a straight up fight vs P use your mobility like you have said we Z's should do for ages when we complain we can't win straight up fights.
Yes, the metagame is changing, maybe protoss will destroy you if you continue doing the same as usual (look at terran metagame, it has changed the least since beta, so its not really surprising they complain, they aren't used to changing their style ... I am not saying they haven't changed, I am just saying they havent met large problems with a matchup yet... about time if you ask me).
I complain too much about matchups myself, so I shouldnt say anything. But new cool styles, and better gamers are produced when facing problems. Seeing one race rice to the top, can be good for the other races in some indirect way.
It has been hard for Terran to really deviate from the MMM since beta, because everytime they start doing something different, that is effective, Blizzard comes in and nerfs it.. Reaper, Ghost, Siege Tanks, Vikings, Hellions, Ghosts, Thors, Battlecruisers, Barracks, Supply depots + other stuff, without alot of buffs..The lack of development away from MMM isnt really Terran players fault.
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On May 15 2012 11:49 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 11:33 renaissanceMAN wrote:On May 13 2012 05:05 Talack wrote:
Tried doing what day9 suggested in his TvP video.
Came in, tried to do damage while expanding (as always) would trade armies (usually ontop)
Delay ups, get a better economy with 1 more bases (i've been up 2-3 on protoss a couple times)
Keep trading armies to prevent him from getting lots of t3.
Get better upgrades (lucky with drops and get a 2-2 vs 1-1 advantage lots of times)
Still...does...not...matter. This matchup is completely broken for protoss late game. Blizzard is seeing something in these games that I CANNOT replicate at all. I have gotten every advantage I possibly can, i've had the right army composition and still it just comes down to them eventually getting an army that you cannot do anything at all against. The only time you win is when the protoss is extra extra greedy and you just roll over them, well that's not fun at all. That might as well have been an all-in because they played so bad in those situations.
(Mid-masters for those herp-de-derps wondering) same here, played a game today where I was ahead relatively all game, denied his third three times, constantly out producing, expanding, and he still slowly got to t3 (without ever going on the offensive...) and rolled over me with about a billion psyonic storms (i had 10 ghosts at the time) I'm only platinum though, so my mechanics aren't as good as a master's level player, but the end result is the same, no matter what I did, no matter how big of a lead I had, it was slowly worn away by a player that did nothing to prevent me i was even on 4 bases to 2 at one point, didn't matter. This is not a "I lost a ladder game to toss so I'll come whine about it thread". Just because you're bad at the mu doesn't mean everyone is. I'm glad blizzard relies on stats rather than anecdotes from biased platinum terrans who think the mu is impossible late game and then unsurprisingly lose in late game. I see so many posts using words/phrases like 'impossible' and 'you can only win if the protoss is terrible'. It's not surprising you lose with mindsets like that and it's just statistically not true. You might lose every game that goes late because your mindset is freaking horrible but not everyone's is. Stop making excuses for your losses and improve instead, you're nowhere near good enough to be complaining (same to the mid-masters guy).
and you're good enough to be passing judgement as well? please enlighten me.
i've been practicing at tvp for weeks now (with a friend non-competitively), and the end is always the same
the matchup IS broken, prove me wrong by showing how you get into the late game against protoss and I'll follow your build order step by step.
or continue to be a pompous asshole and point out fallacies in people's stories, blizzard wants balance? they're certainly not getting it.
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On May 15 2012 11:58 renaissanceMAN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 11:49 Scarecrow wrote:On May 15 2012 11:33 renaissanceMAN wrote:On May 13 2012 05:05 Talack wrote:
Tried doing what day9 suggested in his TvP video.
Came in, tried to do damage while expanding (as always) would trade armies (usually ontop)
Delay ups, get a better economy with 1 more bases (i've been up 2-3 on protoss a couple times)
Keep trading armies to prevent him from getting lots of t3.
Get better upgrades (lucky with drops and get a 2-2 vs 1-1 advantage lots of times)
Still...does...not...matter. This matchup is completely broken for protoss late game. Blizzard is seeing something in these games that I CANNOT replicate at all. I have gotten every advantage I possibly can, i've had the right army composition and still it just comes down to them eventually getting an army that you cannot do anything at all against. The only time you win is when the protoss is extra extra greedy and you just roll over them, well that's not fun at all. That might as well have been an all-in because they played so bad in those situations.
(Mid-masters for those herp-de-derps wondering) same here, played a game today where I was ahead relatively all game, denied his third three times, constantly out producing, expanding, and he still slowly got to t3 (without ever going on the offensive...) and rolled over me with about a billion psyonic storms (i had 10 ghosts at the time) I'm only platinum though, so my mechanics aren't as good as a master's level player, but the end result is the same, no matter what I did, no matter how big of a lead I had, it was slowly worn away by a player that did nothing to prevent me i was even on 4 bases to 2 at one point, didn't matter. This is not a "I lost a ladder game to toss so I'll come whine about it thread". Just because you're bad at the mu doesn't mean everyone is. I'm glad blizzard relies on stats rather than anecdotes from biased platinum terrans who think the mu is impossible late game and then unsurprisingly lose in late game. I see so many posts using words/phrases like 'impossible' and 'you can only win if the protoss is terrible'. It's not surprising you lose with mindsets like that and it's just statistically not true. You might lose every game that goes late because your mindset is freaking horrible but not everyone's is. Stop making excuses for your losses and improve instead, you're nowhere near good enough to be complaining (same to the mid-masters guy). and you're good enough to be passing judgement as well? please enlighten me. i've been practicing at tvp for weeks now (with a friend non-competitively), and the end is always the same either I'll all-in and win, or the game will grind to t3 and I'll lose the matchup IS broken, prove me wrong by showing how you get into the late game against protoss and I'll follow your build order step by step. or continue to be a pompous asshole and point out fallacies in people's stories, blizzard wants balance? they're certainly not getting it.
You're freaking platinum, i've been GM and I dont think i'm qualified to say a mu is broken (it's nearly always me sucking/making excuses). You have nfi what you're talking about. "i've been practicing at tvp for weeks now (with a friend non-competitively)" doesn't qualify you to commentate on shit. Your friend's just not mentally crippled and it sounds like you can't micro ghosts/spread to save your life. Your late game is broken, that's all your posts tell me.
edit: it's not about giving you a build order (though im sure yours is far from perfect). There's no magic pill BO. Spend time working specifically on your ghost control. Improve your mechanics. You'll at least start beating your friend and weaker toss. It might surprise you but not every plat toss is a late game bonjwa and they can fall apart/make mistake/get outmanouevred just like anyone else. Play the player not the race.
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On May 15 2012 11:33 renaissanceMAN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 05:05 Talack wrote:
Tried doing what day9 suggested in his TvP video.
Came in, tried to do damage while expanding (as always) would trade armies (usually ontop)
Delay ups, get a better economy with 1 more bases (i've been up 2-3 on protoss a couple times)
Keep trading armies to prevent him from getting lots of t3.
Get better upgrades (lucky with drops and get a 2-2 vs 1-1 advantage lots of times)
Still...does...not...matter. This matchup is completely broken for protoss late game. Blizzard is seeing something in these games that I CANNOT replicate at all. I have gotten every advantage I possibly can, i've had the right army composition and still it just comes down to them eventually getting an army that you cannot do anything at all against. The only time you win is when the protoss is extra extra greedy and you just roll over them, well that's not fun at all. That might as well have been an all-in because they played so bad in those situations.
(Mid-masters for those herp-de-derps wondering) same here, played a game today where I was ahead relatively all game, denied his third three times, constantly out producing, expanding, and he still slowly got to t3 (without ever going on the offensive...) and rolled over me with about a billion psyonic storms (i had 10 ghosts at the time) I'm only platinum though, so my mechanics aren't as good as a master's level player, but the end result is the same, no matter what I did, no matter how big of a lead I had, it was slowly worn away by a player that did nothing to prevent me i was even on 4 bases to 2 at one point, didn't matter.
Trust me, the same thing happens at high masters and even into GM. I've had plenty of TvP's where I am ahead economically, doing harassment and multitasking much more than the Toss only to lose to the 3/3 deathball. There's the illusion that people in masters or higher have a much easier time in TvP...we don't. The only people who can even out the playing field with pure skill are the tip top players (mostly talking pro Koreans here) who micro the living crap out of Bio.
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On May 15 2012 12:02 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 11:58 renaissanceMAN wrote:On May 15 2012 11:49 Scarecrow wrote:On May 15 2012 11:33 renaissanceMAN wrote:On May 13 2012 05:05 Talack wrote:
Tried doing what day9 suggested in his TvP video.
Came in, tried to do damage while expanding (as always) would trade armies (usually ontop)
Delay ups, get a better economy with 1 more bases (i've been up 2-3 on protoss a couple times)
Keep trading armies to prevent him from getting lots of t3.
Get better upgrades (lucky with drops and get a 2-2 vs 1-1 advantage lots of times)
Still...does...not...matter. This matchup is completely broken for protoss late game. Blizzard is seeing something in these games that I CANNOT replicate at all. I have gotten every advantage I possibly can, i've had the right army composition and still it just comes down to them eventually getting an army that you cannot do anything at all against. The only time you win is when the protoss is extra extra greedy and you just roll over them, well that's not fun at all. That might as well have been an all-in because they played so bad in those situations.
(Mid-masters for those herp-de-derps wondering) same here, played a game today where I was ahead relatively all game, denied his third three times, constantly out producing, expanding, and he still slowly got to t3 (without ever going on the offensive...) and rolled over me with about a billion psyonic storms (i had 10 ghosts at the time) I'm only platinum though, so my mechanics aren't as good as a master's level player, but the end result is the same, no matter what I did, no matter how big of a lead I had, it was slowly worn away by a player that did nothing to prevent me i was even on 4 bases to 2 at one point, didn't matter. This is not a "I lost a ladder game to toss so I'll come whine about it thread". Just because you're bad at the mu doesn't mean everyone is. I'm glad blizzard relies on stats rather than anecdotes from biased platinum terrans who think the mu is impossible late game and then unsurprisingly lose in late game. I see so many posts using words/phrases like 'impossible' and 'you can only win if the protoss is terrible'. It's not surprising you lose with mindsets like that and it's just statistically not true. You might lose every game that goes late because your mindset is freaking horrible but not everyone's is. Stop making excuses for your losses and improve instead, you're nowhere near good enough to be complaining (same to the mid-masters guy). and you're good enough to be passing judgement as well? please enlighten me. i've been practicing at tvp for weeks now (with a friend non-competitively), and the end is always the same either I'll all-in and win, or the game will grind to t3 and I'll lose the matchup IS broken, prove me wrong by showing how you get into the late game against protoss and I'll follow your build order step by step. or continue to be a pompous asshole and point out fallacies in people's stories, blizzard wants balance? they're certainly not getting it. You're freaking platinum, i've been GM. You have nfi what you're talking about. "i've been practicing at tvp for weeks now (with a friend non-competitively)" doesn't qualify you to commentate on shit. Your friend's just not mentally crippled and it sounds like you can't micro ghosts/spread to save your life. Your late game is broken, that's all your posts tell me.
so show me some replays, I'm open to learning
the matchup is still broken, unless you're MVP
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People who dont understand this one Blizzard statement just dont understand the game, and need to think more about the metagame than on the imbalance. Blizzard here just told every terran how to deal with protoss : pressure in early/mid-game to avoid the protoss teching. Like tvz and pvz on economy. You terrans need to get this in your mind once for all and find another subject to talk about. This is getting amazingly boring.
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On May 15 2012 12:07 Putain_De_Putois wrote:
People who dont understand this one Blizzard statement just dont understand the game, and need to think more about the metagame than on the imbalance. Blizzard here just told every terran how to deal with protoss : pressure in early/mid-game to avoid the protoss teching. Like tvz and pvz on economy. You terrans need to get this in your mind once for all and find another subject to talk about. This is getting amazingly boring.
OMG, this is a new revelation. how did everybody miss it... o wait, except there are so many posts through out these pages in this thread about how Terran players dont want to be forced to all-in, semi all-in every single TvP just to win.. Mabey you should actually read through the thread before ASSuming that every Terran player missed that little point you made, because there are alot of Terran players who would be willing to take nerfs to their mid game, if it ment some buffs to give them an actuall chance to macro up and win in late game..
YOU need to get this in your mind once and for all.. Most Terrans dont find all-ining, semi all-ining, every TvP enjoyable
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EPT
