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On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote:
I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices. I believe that too.
And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye. 
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On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote:
I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices. Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.  well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote:
I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices. I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2. Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote:
I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices. Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn. well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2. Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
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On April 24 2012 20:22 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote:
I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices. Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn. well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2. Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching. The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
NO. WHY? Because ZERGBONG created the galaxy. You lost your arguments  And MVP will armwrestle Flash and prove his wrist are stronger than nano-titanium wrists. I have knowledge you have fanboyism, sorry.
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^
It took me a while before I realized you were joking. That was sick convincing dude.
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On April 24 2012 20:29 bgx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 20:22 Zergneedsfood wrote:On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote:
I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices. Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn. well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2. Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching. The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me. NO. WHY? Because ZERGBONG created the galaxy. You lost your arguments And MVP will armwrestle Flash and prove his wrist are stronger than nano-titanium wrists. I have knowledge you have fanboyism, sorry.
I agree that Flash has tiny nano girly wrists (how else would be go 0-2 vs superior KT)
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On April 24 2012 20:22 Zergneedsfood wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote:
I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices. Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn. well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2. Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching. The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me. On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote:
I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices. I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2. Time to say goodbye. Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped. But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way. On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote:
I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices. Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn. well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2. Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2. Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
I totally agree with this post. I think if/when these big guns switch and got in enough practice people will have to realize how many mistakes the current top players really make. It will be a first glimpse at what flawless SC2-play might look like. PERFECT micro and macro at the same time. Take any game where your favorite player played almost perfectly and realize this is what you will have to do EVERY game just to compete for GSL and such. So many things will be done with this game we don't know are possible yet.
+ Show Spoiler +But maybe that's just me dreaming and these RTS-gods will just suck.
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On April 24 2012 21:31 Ncutable wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 20:22 Zergneedsfood wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote:
I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices. Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn. well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2. Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching. The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me. On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote:
I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices. I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2. Time to say goodbye. Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped. But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way. On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote:
I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices. Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn. well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2. Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2. Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/ I totally agree with this post. I think if/when these big guns switch and got in enough practice people will have to realize how many mistakes the current top players really make. It will be a first glimpse at what flawless SC2-play might look like. PERFECT micro and macro at the same time. Take any game where your favorite player played almost perfectly and realize this is what you will have to do EVERY game just to compete for GSL and such. So many things will be done with this game we don't know are possible yet. + Show Spoiler +But maybe that's just me dreaming and these RTS-gods will just suck.
To be frank there is no perfect macro and micro, and never will be even in sc2. You cant really make 3 things in 1 second and i could quote Bisu on that  (i dont remember exact quote TT)
Actually when the games get closer in skill level opponents will make you do more mistakes. That was the beauty of BW and maybe SC2 will evolve into more mistake inducing game. But not banelings into marines u dead, or FF your army u dead ones, kinda more drawn-out situations of crisis.
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On April 24 2012 22:21 bgx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 21:31 Ncutable wrote:On April 24 2012 20:22 Zergneedsfood wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote:
I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices. Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn. well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2. Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching. The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me. On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote:
I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices. I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2. Time to say goodbye. Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped. But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way. On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote:
I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices. Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn. well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2. Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2. Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/ I totally agree with this post. I think if/when these big guns switch and got in enough practice people will have to realize how many mistakes the current top players really make. It will be a first glimpse at what flawless SC2-play might look like. PERFECT micro and macro at the same time. Take any game where your favorite player played almost perfectly and realize this is what you will have to do EVERY game just to compete for GSL and such. So many things will be done with this game we don't know are possible yet. + Show Spoiler +But maybe that's just me dreaming and these RTS-gods will just suck. To be frank there is no perfect macro and micro, and never will be even in sc2. You cant really make 3 things in 1 second and i could quote Bisu on that (i dont remember exact quote TT) Actually when the games get closer in skill level opponents will make you do more mistakes. That was the beauty of BW and maybe SC2 will evolve into more mistake inducing game. But not banelings into marines u dead, or FF your army u dead ones, kinda more drawn-out situations of crisis.
Yea, sorry for exaggerating a bit. Also agree with you on the second part. I didn´t mean there won´t be any mistakes anymore. Just that players will not be able to afford to make kinda "unenforced" mistakes. Mistakes will be made on a "higher level" because the pressure and intensity will be so much tougher that people just cannot keep up with everything all the time. imo this point isn´t reached at all yet.
But like I said before, I have no real knowledge about BW, I just hope some of these guys will switch and then crush the present state of SC2 and bring it to the next level.
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I doubt there will be the separation that we see in BW. SC2 was designed from the ground up so that build orders and unit composition matters way more than they do in BW. There's still a distinction between foreigners and Koreans but I doubt there will be the separation between S-class and A-class or within A-class that we see in BW.
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On April 24 2012 20:22 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
Maybe you should redefine your standards of "top" - just because someone is "top" at BW doesn't mean they're "top" at SC2 or other games in general.
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The winrates between the top players in BW and the top players in SC2 are pretty much the same. SC2 players lose more.. because they play more. Flash doesn't win every single game. If the game wasn't as easy to distinguish top players.. then we wouldn't have that easily comparable stats.
There's still so many things that can be improved on micro wise in SC2.. look at MKP's storm dodging, not every player can do that properly. and even MKP doesn't do it perfectly yet. There's plenty of other examples where there are still improvements being made that are game changing.. warp prism play is still a mess, occasionally someone will do something awesome but not consistently.. but it's only a matter of time.
The games are not equal 1-1. What is impressive skill wise in BW is not necessarily the same as in SC2.. it does not mean that SC2 is worse, its just different.
For what it's worth, every game I watched of BW last season (granted not many) to me looked no different to how SC2 games played out. I did only see mostly mirrors to be fair, but if it wasn't for the graphical differences they'd could have been the same game.
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On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote:
I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices. I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2. Time to say goodbye.
While I don't say you need or should make the transition to SC2 we can't expect that every top BW pro will dominate SC2 when there are lots of very competent people that has been practicing that game for 2 years (if you include beta).
BW is a more difficult game to learn but I feel that mistakes or slight errors in decision making in SC2 can easier lose the game or be harder to come back from. This makes it harder to be consistent even though your macro/micro is superior. That does not mean it is impossible. The 3 last MLG's have had the exact same finalists and a very similar top 8. During MVP's dominance he was pretty much unbeatable but his wrist problems prevented him from practicing and he started losing (he's still doing extremely well though). Win rates of the best are same as the BW win rates and foreigners suck compared to koreans. Skill cap won't ever be reached and the best will still win the most.
That doesn't mean you have to like the switch or like SC2 at all. I'm just sure that we are far from seeing optimal play and that the game is developing. I mean less than a month ago forge fast expanding was discovered as a viable opening PvT lol.
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On April 25 2012 00:47 andrewlt wrote:
I doubt there will be the separation that we see in BW. SC2 was designed from the ground up so that build orders and unit composition matters way more than they do in BW. There's still a distinction between foreigners and Koreans but I doubt there will be the separation between S-class and A-class or within A-class that we see in BW.
...This is pretty uninformed.
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On April 25 2012 01:39 Gingerninja wrote:
The winrates between the top players in BW and the top players in SC2 are pretty much the same. SC2 players lose more.. because they play more. Flash doesn't win every single game. If the game wasn't as easy to distinguish top players.. then we wouldn't have that easily comparable stats.
There's still so many things that can be improved on micro wise in SC2.. look at MKP's storm dodging, not every player can do that properly. and even MKP doesn't do it perfectly yet. There's plenty of other examples where there are still improvements being made that are game changing.. warp prism play is still a mess, occasionally someone will do something awesome but not consistently.. but it's only a matter of time.
The games are not equal 1-1. What is impressive skill wise in BW is not necessarily the same as in SC2.. it does not mean that SC2 is worse, its just different.
For what it's worth, every game I watched of BW last season (granted not many) to me looked no different to how SC2 games played out. I did only see mostly mirrors to be fair, but if it wasn't for the graphical differences they'd could have been the same game.
i guess a picasso original and a cutout from walmart would look the same to a blind person, so that's a good point you made there.
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On April 24 2012 17:14 wassbix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 16:59 bgx wrote:On April 24 2012 16:17 Monokeros wrote:On April 24 2012 16:09 bgx wrote:On April 24 2012 15:53 Corsica wrote:
Flash: Make mech work in every mu (esp TvP)
Bisu: bring protoss to new level of multitask and teach how to use many casters at once
Jaedong: Show zergs how to properly be aggressive Stork: Show everyone the power of Carriers ? -_- ;; no that would be Jangbi, Jangbi is NOTORIOUS for going 2base carriers in TvP. I just wanted to put full TBLS, i just have the fact everyone is forgetting "B" in TBLS Taek Bisu Lee Ssang???
TaekBangLeeSsang >_>
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On April 24 2012 16:17 Monokeros wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 16:09 bgx wrote:On April 24 2012 15:53 Corsica wrote:
Flash: Make mech work in every mu (esp TvP)
Bisu: bring protoss to new level of multitask and teach how to use many casters at once
Jaedong: Show zergs how to properly be aggressive Stork: Show everyone the power of Carriers ? -_- ;; no that would be Jangbi, Jangbi is NOTORIOUS for going 2base carriers in TvP.
By the time they switch the Carrier will cease to exist probably
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On April 25 2012 02:19 SabreUK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 17:14 wassbix wrote:On April 24 2012 16:59 bgx wrote:On April 24 2012 16:17 Monokeros wrote:On April 24 2012 16:09 bgx wrote:On April 24 2012 15:53 Corsica wrote:
Flash: Make mech work in every mu (esp TvP)
Bisu: bring protoss to new level of multitask and teach how to use many casters at once
Jaedong: Show zergs how to properly be aggressive Stork: Show everyone the power of Carriers ? -_- ;; no that would be Jangbi, Jangbi is NOTORIOUS for going 2base carriers in TvP. I just wanted to put full TBLS, i just have the fact everyone is forgetting "B" in TBLS Taek Bisu Lee Ssang??? TaekBangLeeSsang >_>
Re-calibrate your sarcasm detector !
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On April 25 2012 02:11 mburke05 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 01:39 Gingerninja wrote:
The winrates between the top players in BW and the top players in SC2 are pretty much the same. SC2 players lose more.. because they play more. Flash doesn't win every single game. If the game wasn't as easy to distinguish top players.. then we wouldn't have that easily comparable stats.
There's still so many things that can be improved on micro wise in SC2.. look at MKP's storm dodging, not every player can do that properly. and even MKP doesn't do it perfectly yet. There's plenty of other examples where there are still improvements being made that are game changing.. warp prism play is still a mess, occasionally someone will do something awesome but not consistently.. but it's only a matter of time.
The games are not equal 1-1. What is impressive skill wise in BW is not necessarily the same as in SC2.. it does not mean that SC2 is worse, its just different.
For what it's worth, every game I watched of BW last season (granted not many) to me looked no different to how SC2 games played out. I did only see mostly mirrors to be fair, but if it wasn't for the graphical differences they'd could have been the same game. i guess a picasso original and a cutout from walmart would look the same to a blind person, so that's a good point you made there.
As casual viewership is what's going to save your ship from sinking, then yes its a great point. It's ok, you can remain as elitist as you wish, in a few month's it's not going to matter.
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On April 25 2012 02:05 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 00:47 andrewlt wrote:
I doubt there will be the separation that we see in BW. SC2 was designed from the ground up so that build orders and unit composition matters way more than they do in BW. There's still a distinction between foreigners and Koreans but I doubt there will be the separation between S-class and A-class or within A-class that we see in BW. ...This is pretty uninformed.
This is kind of what I meant. We see some people with win rates similar to BW pros, but the truth is, the game is still young. People are going on massive runs based off a superior understanding of small things. MC forcefields extremely well, and this gave him some very powerful gateway timings that allowed him to make some players just look outclassed. At the same time, we've seen these timings fail miserably or lose to a single banshee. Nestea has his incredible zvz record and introduced muta play as well as doing some bane vs roach play, but other zergs are catching up and beating him now (and I don't just mean other code S champion zergs).
The point is, it is very difficult to overcome a disadvantage in SC2 through superior play. Most people have seen Day[9]'s talk about frisbees vs baseballs. That is the sort of thing I mean, though on a larger scale. All the fundamentals that distinguish tiers of players are there: macro, multitask, series planning, etc. Still, something is missing.
Remember how upset flash fanboys got when he kept going 14cc and losing to anyone with an early attack? Everyone wondered why he would do that when he had the superior skill that would allow him to play safe and come back from any economic disadvantage. I feel like that sort of question doesn't come up in SC2.
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EPT
