This article is in response to the Fomos 5 year article that was recently presented. Note = this is NOT a direct translation. It's just a summary
After the coach interview, many fans have been wondering whether Starcraft 1 progamers will either stay with their main race in Starcraft 2 or will change their race once the Proleague Season 2 beginsl After asking the players some questions, many have responded that they will stay with their actual race. 72 of the 89 progamers that have responded with stay with their actual race while FireBatHero has stated that he is undecided for now. The 72 progamers who will stick with their own race stated that "it is far too late to change races now".
However, 13 progamers have answered that they will switch races. Leta, Snow, and THE ROCK stated they wish to change because they want to play a different race while Hoejja, PianO, Juni, and Great will switch races due to imbalance in SC2 for their respective races.
Hoejja answered that Protoss is just too good from what I've been hearing and have revealed that he is interested in Protoss and Juni has answered that "You must play Terran. That is all." Great has answered that he regrets playing Zerg in Starcraft 1 too much, and therefore, will switch.
What would his controls be like if Bisu were to switch from Protoss to Terran? Bisu has said that "he wishes to play Protoss, but the thought of switching to Terran has come up a lot", showing his possible intent to switch races when Starcraft 2 is released. Bisu has shown skills that makes you wonder why he did not play Terran in Starcraft 1. (especially due to his high multitasking skills, and thus may show even better games if he were to switch races).
Of course since Proleague schedules have not yet been definitive, player choices may change, but if the players were to switch races we can expect (and be excited that) a brand new style and control from each of the players.
Speaking as a huge Bisu fanboy who switched to terran in sc2 I would approve
It will be interesting to see all the race switches among the pros. I think Bisu will do well with either terran or protoss. He has good harass options with T of course and I think his multitask could really shine as protoss with warp prisms and proxy pylons harassing mulitple locations.
I am kinda sad brood war is looking really close to over though At least it ended on a high note in the proleague finals and heres hoping Bisu becomes the first starcraft 2 OSL champ !!!
What I like hearing is how many progamers have regretted their race choice in the end. How long is "too late to change"? Can't wait for all this to go down ^_^
Players switching races due to imbalance is really idiotic (if that is actually true), considering it changes so often, a couple of months ago Toss was by far the weakest race, whereas now they are doing great, if someone wants to be in Starcraft 2 for a long time they shouldn't pick their races for the next few years based off of monthly gestimates of balance.
On April 21 2012 10:27 MCDayC wrote: Players switching races due to imbalance is really idiotic (if that is actually true), considering it changes so often, a couple of months ago Toss was by far the weakest race, whereas now they are doing great, if someone wants to be in Starcraft 2 for a long time they shouldn't pick their races for the next few years based off of monthly gestimates of balance.
People have already been switching races. If someone feels one race is stronger than another, why would they not play it? Incontrol switched to protoss for SC2, Morrow has been known for race switching, Artosis switched to protoss after playing zerg in the beginning of SC2, Idra went from being terran in BW to zerg in SC2, etc. They are not looking at stats and determining their race by that, they are deciding by how they feel when playing and possibly with some advice from professional SC2 friends.
As long as we're at it... I've been checking Sc2ranks pretty often lately, trying to find out who the BW progamers were. I'm not sure how many stuck with their original BW names and how many are playing under smurfs. Does anyone keep tabs on them?
Is FBH the BraQ guy on GM with a 74% win rate? Is the Bisu guy playing Protoss Bisu? (so many people early on had all sorts of iterations of Bisu as their name) Is GoojiLa = Kal? Etc etc.
I had a list before but somehow lost it.
Possible list (those not written in Korean characters) in order of points (descending). Take note season is relatively new. Some already have an amazing amount of games characteristic of BW pros (like forgg, etc)
GM
BraQ (FBH?) Bisu maRie
Masters
last zero KDY (Kim Dae Yeob?) GooJila (Kal?) Grape Shine firebathero (toss, lol) Stork Flash (zerg, below 50% winrate... I doubt) Sharp oDin Reality movie Free (zerg... I remember seeing a free before who was toss) Light (a bad zerg, likely not Light) GGPLAY (likely someone else's smurf, as ggplay was injured and stopped BW because of that injury) Stardust (terran, lol) Flash (66% toss) Bisu (47% toss) FanTaSy Midas effort
On April 21 2012 10:27 MCDayC wrote: Players switching races due to imbalance is really idiotic (if that is actually true), considering it changes so often, a couple of months ago Toss was by far the weakest race, whereas now they are doing great, if someone wants to be in Starcraft 2 for a long time they shouldn't pick their races for the next few years based off of monthly gestimates of balance.
People have already been switching races. If someone feels one race is stronger than another, why would they not play it? Incontrol switched to protoss for SC2, Morrow has been known for race switching, Artosis switched to protoss after playing zerg in the beginning of SC2, etc. They are not looking at stats and determining their race by that, they are deciding by how how they feel when playing and possibly with some advice from professional SC2 friends.
Artosis switching his race was one of the saddest things I ever witnessed. 12 years of Terran patriotism down the drain.
On April 21 2012 10:25 GGQ wrote: Noooo Bisu you must be Protoss! My mind can't even figure out what I would do if Bisu played a different race. It'd just be wrong.
You know that Bisu was originally Terran in BW right?
On April 21 2012 10:25 GGQ wrote: Noooo Bisu you must be Protoss! My mind can't even figure out what I would do if Bisu played a different race. It'd just be wrong.
You know that Bisu was originally Terran in BW right?
(so was Best)
So was Stork. But they all found their true (and far superior) calling.
Well, i hear Hoejja saying Protoss imba and then Bisu... I have absolutely on clue on competitive SC2 so i can't really comment except that Bisu probably wants to use + Show Spoiler +
On April 21 2012 10:27 MCDayC wrote: Players switching races due to imbalance is really idiotic (if that is actually true), considering it changes so often, a couple of months ago Toss was by far the weakest race, whereas now they are doing great, if someone wants to be in Starcraft 2 for a long time they shouldn't pick their races for the next few years based off of monthly gestimates of balance.
People have already been switching races. If someone feels one race is stronger than another, why would they not play it? Incontrol switched to protoss for SC2, Morrow has been known for race switching, Artosis switched to protoss after playing zerg in the beginning of SC2, etc. They are not looking at stats and determining their race by that, they are deciding by how how they feel when playing and possibly with some advice from professional SC2 friends.
Artosis switching his race was one of the saddest things I ever witnessed. 12 years of Terran patriotism down the drain.
It's because of the marauder. He said that playing as terran with the marauder went against everything he did as a terran for the last 12 years and that he can't stand it so that's why he switched.
On April 21 2012 10:25 GGQ wrote: Noooo Bisu you must be Protoss! My mind can't even figure out what I would do if Bisu played a different race. It'd just be wrong.
You know that Bisu was originally Terran in BW right?
(so was Best)
Yup but that was before I knew he existed so it doesn't count.
if baby stays terran, and bisu plays terran, there will be 832109301293 drops going off everywhere on the map that the commentators computers will spontaneously combust.
On April 21 2012 10:27 MCDayC wrote: Players switching races due to imbalance is really idiotic (if that is actually true), considering it changes so often, a couple of months ago Toss was by far the weakest race, whereas now they are doing great, if someone wants to be in Starcraft 2 for a long time they shouldn't pick their races for the next few years based off of monthly gestimates of balance.
People have already been switching races. If someone feels one race is stronger than another, why would they not play it? Incontrol switched to protoss for SC2, Morrow has been known for race switching, Artosis switched to protoss after playing zerg in the beginning of SC2, Idra went from being terran in BW to zerg in SC2, etc. They are not looking at stats and determining their race by that, they are deciding by how they feel when playing and possibly with some advice from professional SC2 friends.
Yeah, but when you use "imbalance" as an excuse like Hoejja, Piano, Juni and great do, it doesn't make sense. If you say something like it fits their playstyle better (like how a lot of Protosses switched to Terran as it's more drop-based) or how they want to try something new then that would be a better excuse.
Imbalance is not really a good excuse as balance changes with the metagame.
He's mentioned his terran preference in SC2 before, I think around Blizzcon. And he wasn't the only one, seems likely that several top BW pro's would switch to terran in SC2.
I am seriously depressed to see this. Man... It's for the good of ESPORTS but is it really worth it? It seems they are actually making pros play SC2, they are only employees after all and their careers are in danger...
On April 21 2012 10:51 figq wrote: He's mentioned his terran preference in SC2 before, I think around Blizzcon. And he wasn't the only one, seems likely that several top BW pro's would switch to terran in SC2.
No. He most certainly has never stated any preference for Terran. His words were that it was a Terran dominated world, and that Protoss was far too weak, and that if you were going to make the race that shitty, why include it at all? He wished that Blizzard would work on the balance better, and that if he had to switch, he would play Protoss. Now that Protoss has been showing quite remarkable results, I don't think he's going to have as much of a problem with staying P.
On April 21 2012 11:01 GTR wrote: I am certain most of the IllIllIlIlII accounts on KR are the BW pros.
I have a feeling as well. They have ridiculous winrates with quite a lot of games played. Although I do remember someone in the SC2 forums saying that many of those are MarineKing's smurfs.
IllIllIlIlII - this is one of MKP account, also Puzzle and other Slayers players and other SC2 pross
i can bet pros BW using koreans nicknames, example: "Horang2 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before" so he probably get GM also in season 7, so it could be this guy http://sc2ranks.com/kr/869893/로켓단
On April 21 2012 11:01 GTR wrote: I am certain most of the IllIllIlIlII accounts on KR are the BW pros.
I have a feeling as well. They have ridiculous winrates with quite a lot of games played. Although I do remember someone in the SC2 forums saying that many of those are MarineKing's smurfs.
I watch a ton of SC2 korean streamers, and most of them have at least one account with a barcode name. I am sure there are a few BW players in there but I would argue most of them aren't. At the moment at least.
On April 21 2012 10:25 GGQ wrote: Noooo Bisu you must be Protoss! My mind can't even figure out what I would do if Bisu played a different race. It'd just be wrong.
You know that Bisu was originally Terran in BW right?
(so was Best)
So was Stork. But they all found their true (and far superior) calling.
Once you go Aiur, you can't go back.
this quote is so golden that i might have to take a warning for quoting it
When you look at the win percentages of each rate in SC2 its not a surprise that the BW pros would consider switching to Terran or Protoss simply because Zerg hasn't been showing any results lately other than a select few players and even then, its mostly T or P winning everything.
On April 21 2012 11:06 Fanek wrote: IllIllIlIlII - this is one of MKP account, also Puzzle and other Slayers players and other SC2 pross
i can bet pros BW using koreans nicknames, example: "Horang2 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before" so he probably get GM also in season 7, so it could be this guy http://sc2ranks.com/kr/869893/로켓단
No, most likely not. And the last guy is hannibal, certainly not flash. To think that the top BW pros would be top of GM with 80% winrate playing only part time is way overestimating their abilities. That's close to MKP status. It took both forgg and hyun a lot longer to achieve anything even close to that.
On April 21 2012 11:06 Fanek wrote: IllIllIlIlII - this is one of MKP account, also Puzzle and other Slayers players and other SC2 pross
i can bet pros BW using koreans nicknames, example: "Horang2 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before" so he probably get GM also in season 7, so it could be this guy http://sc2ranks.com/kr/869893/로켓단
No, most likely not. And the last guy is hannibal, certainly not flash. To think that the top BW pros would be top of GM with 80% winrate playing only part time is way overestimating their abilities. That's close to MKP status. It took both forgg and hyun a lot longer to achieve anything even close to that.
Forgg and Hyun are not good representations of the BW skillset.
On April 21 2012 11:06 Fanek wrote: IllIllIlIlII - this is one of MKP account, also Puzzle and other Slayers players and other SC2 pross
i can bet pros BW using koreans nicknames, example: "Horang2 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before" so he probably get GM also in season 7, so it could be this guy http://sc2ranks.com/kr/869893/로켓단
No, most likely not. And the last guy is hannibal, certainly not flash. To think that the top BW pros would be top of GM with 80% winrate playing only part time is way overestimating their abilities. That's close to MKP status. It took both forgg and hyun a lot longer to achieve anything even close to that.
Forgg and Hyun are not good representations of the BW skillset.
And sc2 isn't a good representation of the BW skillset....
On April 21 2012 11:06 Fanek wrote: IllIllIlIlII - this is one of MKP account, also Puzzle and other Slayers players and other SC2 pross
i can bet pros BW using koreans nicknames, example: "Horang2 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before" so he probably get GM also in season 7, so it could be this guy http://sc2ranks.com/kr/869893/로켓단
No, most likely not. And the last guy is hannibal, certainly not flash. To think that the top BW pros would be top of GM with 80% winrate playing only part time is way overestimating their abilities. That's close to MKP status. It took both forgg and hyun a lot longer to achieve anything even close to that.
Forgg and Hyun are not good representations of the BW skillset.
And sc2 isn't a good representation of the BW skillset....
Sc2 isn't a direct representation. Lemme quote you a bit.
"To think that the top BW pros would be top of GM with 80% winrate playing only part time is way overestimating their abilities."
That's a conclusion of law (sorry, lawyer). Now, let's look at your basis for saying this.
" That's close to MKP status. It took both forgg and hyun a lot longer to achieve anything even close to that."
And I simply said: No. Your conclusion is not supported by your facts. The fact that BW coaches have said their players have reached GM, and that one (Horang2) has an obnoxious winrate... well at least that's testimonial support for the position that BW players can play SC2 at a high level without a whole lot of practice time (at least, not equivalent to the current SC2 pros when they first joined the SC2 scene).
On April 21 2012 11:06 Fanek wrote: IllIllIlIlII - this is one of MKP account, also Puzzle and other Slayers players and other SC2 pross
i can bet pros BW using koreans nicknames, example: "Horang2 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before" so he probably get GM also in season 7, so it could be this guy http://sc2ranks.com/kr/869893/로켓단
No, most likely not. And the last guy is hannibal, certainly not flash. To think that the top BW pros would be top of GM with 80% winrate playing only part time is way overestimating their abilities. That's close to MKP status. It took both forgg and hyun a lot longer to achieve anything even close to that.
Forgg and Hyun are not good representations of the BW skillset.
And sc2 isn't a good representation of the BW skillset....
Sc2 isn't a direct representation. Lemme quote you a bit.
"To think that the top BW pros would be top of GM with 80% winrate playing only part time is way overestimating their abilities."
That's a conclusion of law (sorry, lawyer). Now, let's look at your basis for saying this.
" That's close to MKP status. It took both forgg and hyun a lot longer to achieve anything even close to that."
And I simply said: No. Your conclusion is not supported by your facts. The fact that BW coaches have said their players have reached GM, and that one (Horang2) has an obnoxious winrate... well at least that's testimonial support for the position that BW players can play SC2 at a high level without a whole lot of practice time (at least, not equivalent to the current SC2 pros when they first joined the SC2 scene).
? Rofl nothing in this thread is supported by facts, it's just all best guessing. Can you actually prove that that player is horang? The account that the other guy mentioned has thousands of games played since season 1. I doubt horang was playing that much since then. And I don't doubt they probably could reach GM, but 70-80% winrate? Nah. In fact, the best evidence all leads to pointing that the smurf accounts aren't BW pros but regular SC2 pros on smurfs (the players stream themselves playing on those accounts).
On April 21 2012 11:06 Fanek wrote: IllIllIlIlII - this is one of MKP account, also Puzzle and other Slayers players and other SC2 pross
i can bet pros BW using koreans nicknames, example: "Horang2 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before" so he probably get GM also in season 7, so it could be this guy http://sc2ranks.com/kr/869893/로켓단
No, most likely not. And the last guy is hannibal, certainly not flash. To think that the top BW pros would be top of GM with 80% winrate playing only part time is way overestimating their abilities. That's close to MKP status. It took both forgg and hyun a lot longer to achieve anything even close to that.
Forgg and Hyun are not good representations of the BW skillset.
And sc2 isn't a good representation of the BW skillset....
Sc2 isn't a direct representation. Lemme quote you a bit.
"To think that the top BW pros would be top of GM with 80% winrate playing only part time is way overestimating their abilities."
That's a conclusion of law (sorry, lawyer). Now, let's look at your basis for saying this.
" That's close to MKP status. It took both forgg and hyun a lot longer to achieve anything even close to that."
And I simply said: No. Your conclusion is not supported by your facts. The fact that BW coaches have said their players have reached GM, and that one (Horang2) has an obnoxious winrate... well at least that's testimonial support for the position that BW players can play SC2 at a high level without a whole lot of practice time (at least, not equivalent to the current SC2 pros when they first joined the SC2 scene).
? Rofl nothing in this thread is supported by facts, it's just all best guessing. Can you actually prove that that player is horang? And I don't doubt they probably could reach GM, but 70-80% winrate? Nah. In fact, the best evidence all leads to pointing that the smurf accounts aren't BW pros but regular SC2 pros on smurfs (the players stream themselves playing on those accounts).
No, it's FACT that the BW coaches SAID things. As far as BW pros are concerned, that's the evidence available. Now you come here and mouth off that BW pros can't possibly reach MKP level (on the ladder) without equivalent playing time... and I call bullshit on that. You have no proof whatsoever, just your perception that somehow Sc2 ladder is sacred ground. That SC2 streamers play on barcode accounts. What kind of proof is that? Negative proof? That's extremely weak to come up with conclusions of fact. Remember, the main argument we're having is that "BW pros can or cannot get to 70-80% on GM KR Ladder." And on that account, I have the interview to support my conclusion that they can. And you have... nothing.
And I agree with the above post. SC2 ladder =/= GSL. GSL is definitely the peak of SC2 play right now. However, many of the current GSL superstars (DRG especially, cause I followed him while he was failing in Code B) were born from sick ladder results/play.
Wait, can someone confirm the source of the Horang2 in GM and Fantasy as Zerg rumors? The guy who first posted that info in the other thread seemed to have deleted his post (though it still exists as quotes later on in the thread), and if they're false rumors, then I feel bad for kinda spreading them.
On April 21 2012 10:51 figq wrote: He's mentioned his terran preference in SC2 before, I think around Blizzcon. And he wasn't the only one, seems likely that several top BW pro's would switch to terran in SC2.
No. He most certainly has never stated any preference for Terran. His words were that it was a Terran dominated world, and that Protoss was far too weak, and that if you were going to make the race that shitty, why include it at all? He wished that Blizzard would work on the balance better, and that if he had to switch, he would play Protoss. Now that Protoss has been showing quite remarkable results, I don't think he's going to have as much of a problem with staying P.
Didn't word that right, but he certainly was considering Terran since then, as he also indicates he is thinking about it in this OP. This doesn't come now as a surprise, that was my point.
On April 21 2012 11:41 Sanguinarius wrote: I would love to see Bisu as terran. With his multitasking skills he would own!
Yup, would be kinda boring to watch him play protoss, seeing as protoss has the worst game design by far in SC2, Terran is actually kinda good in SC2 in terms of design and variety of play etc (except for mech in TvP), Zerg is decent it still needs alot of work tbh and Protoss needs a redesign completely.
Maan! I'm getting nerd chills when ever I read something like BW pros transitioning to SC2 or any other related news like this. It is really exciting to see if they will dominate or the SC2 Pros will keep them on check. Also will BW Pro's innovate the meta game like army composition that we have never seen before. So Excited \m/ ;D
The |||||||||||||||||| aren't bw pros, they're just accounts for team members so they don't get sniped and people can't prepare for them by looking at their match history if they ladder or custom. I know startale, nshoseo, prime members do this. More too probably.
Can someone point me towards the source on the Horang2 thing? I mean, if BW is going to give way to Sc2, the best case scenario for me is if my favourite player (aka sickest hero baller of BW) became the sickest hero baller of sc2.
On April 21 2012 11:56 Bibbit wrote: Can someone point me towards the source on the Horang2 thing? I mean, if BW is going to give way to Sc2, the best case scenario for me is if my favourite player (aka sickest hero baller of BW) became the sickest hero baller of sc2.
It was originally this guy, but he seems to have altered his original post and deleted that info.
On April 21 2012 11:56 Bibbit wrote: Can someone point me towards the source on the Horang2 thing? I mean, if BW is going to give way to Sc2, the best case scenario for me is if my favourite player (aka sickest hero baller of BW) became the sickest hero baller of sc2.
It was originally this guy, but he seems to have altered his original post and deleted that info.
Nice to see Horang2 is ripping up Sc2 while simultaneously being the best BW player (shut up and let me live in my world). Also he should totally change his name to Horang4 whenever he's playing Sc2, it only makes sense even if it removes the cute pun.
On April 21 2012 11:52 RezChi wrote: I want to watch Storks Macro Protoss and destroy everyone.
But all of his iconic tricks don't exist anymore T_T
OMG! Stork pro reaverColossus micro! SO beautiful!!
Players like Bisu and Stork could continue to develop Liquid Hero's extremely multitasking dependant PvX style (reference: ). I just hope the BW pros can take SC2 to new highs and push the game to its limits.
On April 21 2012 11:56 Bibbit wrote: Can someone point me towards the source on the Horang2 thing? I mean, if BW is going to give way to Sc2, the best case scenario for me is if my favourite player (aka sickest hero baller of BW) became the sickest hero baller of sc2.
It was originally this guy, but he seems to have altered his original post and deleted that info.
On April 21 2012 11:01 GTR wrote: I am certain most of the IllIllIlIlII accounts on KR are the BW pros.
I have a feeling as well. They have ridiculous winrates with quite a lot of games played. Although I do remember someone in the SC2 forums saying that many of those are MarineKing's smurfs.
On April 21 2012 11:56 Bibbit wrote: Can someone point me towards the source on the Horang2 thing? I mean, if BW is going to give way to Sc2, the best case scenario for me is if my favourite player (aka sickest hero baller of BW) became the sickest hero baller of sc2.
It was originally this guy, but he seems to have altered his original post and deleted that info.
On April 21 2012 11:56 Bibbit wrote: Can someone point me towards the source on the Horang2 thing? I mean, if BW is going to give way to Sc2, the best case scenario for me is if my favourite player (aka sickest hero baller of BW) became the sickest hero baller of sc2.
It was originally this guy, but he seems to have altered his original post and deleted that info.
On April 21 2012 10:25 GGQ wrote: Noooo Bisu you must be Protoss! My mind can't even figure out what I would do if Bisu played a different race. It'd just be wrong.
You know that Bisu was originally Terran in BW right?
(so was Best)
So was Stork. But they all found their true (and far superior) calling.
Once you go Aiur, you can't go back.
Obvious solution to this is to never play protoss.
On April 21 2012 10:40 Caladbolg wrote: As long as we're at it... I've been checking Sc2ranks pretty often lately, trying to find out who the BW progamers were. I'm not sure how many stuck with their original BW names and how many are playing under smurfs. Does anyone keep tabs on them?
Is FBH the BraQ guy on GM with a 74% win rate? Is the Bisu guy playing Protoss Bisu? (so many people early on had all sorts of iterations of Bisu as their name) Is GoojiLa = Kal? Etc etc.
I had a list before but somehow lost it.
Possible list (those not written in Korean characters) in order of points (descending). Take note season is relatively new. Some already have an amazing amount of games characteristic of BW pros (like forgg, etc)
*LIST*
I think alot of people just use the progamer names, I've played an Odin an a Juni in KR masters, but I doubt it was actually them.
(I got raped in both games after getting an early advantage though so idk.)
i definitely thought a lot of progamers would switch to terran, so im not too surprised about this. it just seems like a smart choice if you have great multitasking
On April 21 2012 10:40 Caladbolg wrote: As long as we're at it... I've been checking Sc2ranks pretty often lately, trying to find out who the BW progamers were. I'm not sure how many stuck with their original BW names and how many are playing under smurfs. Does anyone keep tabs on them?
Is FBH the BraQ guy on GM with a 74% win rate? Is the Bisu guy playing Protoss Bisu? (so many people early on had all sorts of iterations of Bisu as their name) Is GoojiLa = Kal? Etc etc.
I had a list before but somehow lost it.
Possible list (those not written in Korean characters) in order of points (descending). Take note season is relatively new. Some already have an amazing amount of games characteristic of BW pros (like forgg, etc)
GM
BraQ (FBH?) Bisu maRie
On April 21 2012 11:51 amazingxkcd wrote: Marie's GM?
Nice for her!
Is this for real? Makes me glad :D. Can't wait to see her play more :D
maRie has been on oGs for quite some time now... It was announced around that time when all the teams seemed to be picking up female players. She's so far failed to make it through Code A qualifiers. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285747
I think the reason he's playing terran is b/c when you download the free trial of sc2 you can only play terran. And bisu isn't going to spend any money on a shitty game.
On April 21 2012 12:27 UTL_Unlimited wrote: Quick comment: isn't the picture not allowed? I thought straight up FOMOS content wasn't allowed to be here anymore.
Eh, I would remove it to be safe, considering that that seems to be the case in other threads. I don't think it's necessary to have a random picture of Bisu no matter how beautiful he looks in it.
On April 21 2012 14:25 elt wrote: maRie has been on oGs for quite some time now... It was announced around that time when all the teams seemed to be picking up female players. She's so far failed to make it through Code A qualifiers. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285747
I know about that, I didn't know she had made it into GM though.
Seeing as they gave sc2 toss the role of scbw terran (and vise versa in a way) some people switching shouldn't really have to come as a surprise.
Flash likes to play a "passive" turtle game with the occational cheese thrown in... that's not terran in sc2 even as much as i want to believe it and go mech every other tvp. Bisu is the multitasking early to midgame kind of guy... now that is sc2 terran if anything.
- saying flash is passive isn't really the right wording but whatever, he likes his doom army/push and safe play.
I got to ask jaedong/kal/flash what race they would play in sc2 at wcg 2010. Jaedong said zerg, flash and kal both said terran. Hopefully jaedong hasn't changed his mind and we get to see what a real zerg can do.
On April 21 2012 14:40 YMCApylons wrote: In SC2, Protoss play needs a big kick in the pants away from 2-base timing pushes...Bisu/Stork, please show the way.
Don't switch to terran, Bisu! Your insane APM will serve you well, but I think you'll love warp gates more.
Bisu and Stork will make Huk, MC, and Hero look like chobos with warp prisms.
On April 21 2012 14:40 YMCApylons wrote: In SC2, Protoss play needs a big kick in the pants away from 2-base timing pushes...Bisu/Stork, please show the way.
Don't switch to terran, Bisu! Your insane APM will serve you well, but I think you'll love warp gates more.
Bisu and Stork will make Huk, MC, and Hero look like chobos with warp prisms.
You mean Stork with his 200ish apm..?
Bisu I can understand, but Stork was never known for his harassment
On April 21 2012 14:40 YMCApylons wrote: In SC2, Protoss play needs a big kick in the pants away from 2-base timing pushes...Bisu/Stork, please show the way.
Don't switch to terran, Bisu! Your insane APM will serve you well, but I think you'll love warp gates more.
Bisu and Stork will make Huk, MC, and Hero look like chobos with warp prisms.
You mean Stork with his 200ish apm..?
Bisu I can understand, but Stork was never known for his harassment
His godly well-known Shuttle-Reaver play => Colossus-Warp Prisms ?
On April 21 2012 14:40 YMCApylons wrote: In SC2, Protoss play needs a big kick in the pants away from 2-base timing pushes...Bisu/Stork, please show the way.
Don't switch to terran, Bisu! Your insane APM will serve you well, but I think you'll love warp gates more.
Bisu and Stork will make Huk, MC, and Hero look like chobos with warp prisms.
You mean Stork with his 200ish apm..?
Bisu I can understand, but Stork was never known for his harassment
His godly well-known Shuttle-Reaver play => Colossus-Warp Prisms ?
Except that Colossus-Warp Prism play is completely pointless and redundant. Maybe he might be better with some other Warp Prism tricks, but definitely not Colossus-Warp Prism.
To be honest, I think the majority of top SC2 Protoss players have poor Warp Prism control.
Even though I am not entirely excited that Bisu will switch races, at the very least I can anticipate some fantastic games coming from these BW elites as soon as they switch to SC2.
It'd be a better choice for him, protoss just wouldnt let him show his true skill. Disappointing in a way, but on the other hand I'd be sort of disappointed if he played protoss in its current state too.
Am i the only one who is really damn excited to see what kind of different playstyle these guys will have when compared to the current SC2 pros, how they will approach the game, what strats they will use.
On April 21 2012 14:40 YMCApylons wrote: In SC2, Protoss play needs a big kick in the pants away from 2-base timing pushes...Bisu/Stork, please show the way.
Don't switch to terran, Bisu! Your insane APM will serve you well, but I think you'll love warp gates more.
Bisu and Stork will make Huk, MC, and Hero look like chobos with warp prisms.
You mean Stork with his 200ish apm..?
Bisu I can understand, but Stork was never known for his harassment
His godly well-known Shuttle-Reaver play => Colossus-Warp Prisms ?
Colossus-Warp Prism is utterly useless. I watched a clip of HerO doing a colossus drop on a mineral line once, and though it was relatively impressive and I admired him for trying to inject some interesting harass in the otherwise dull game, it took a really long time (every time he dropped it, it killed like, 1 or 2 SCVs at a time), and wasn't particularly effective. Nothing like a reaver drop which has the potential to wipe out 10 workers in one explosion, or a BW storm drop that completely decimates a person's economy in 3 seconds. Storm drops in SC2, though certainly possible, are also kind of underwhelming. The radius is tiny, the damage is lower. Doesn't it take like, 4+ storms to cover a mineral line and the likely escape route?
On April 21 2012 14:40 YMCApylons wrote: In SC2, Protoss play needs a big kick in the pants away from 2-base timing pushes...Bisu/Stork, please show the way.
Don't switch to terran, Bisu! Your insane APM will serve you well, but I think you'll love warp gates more.
Bisu and Stork will make Huk, MC, and Hero look like chobos with warp prisms.
You mean Stork with his 200ish apm..?
Bisu I can understand, but Stork was never known for his harassment
His godly well-known Shuttle-Reaver play => Colossus-Warp Prisms ?
Colossus-Warp Prism is utterly useless. I watched a clip of HerO doing a colossus drop on a mineral line once, and though it was relatively impressive and I admired him for trying to inject some interesting harass in the otherwise dull game, it took a really long time (every time he dropped it, it killed like, 1 or 2 SCVs at a time), and wasn't particularly effective. Nothing like a reaver drop which has the potential to wipe out 10 workers in one explosion, or a BW storm drop that completely decimates a person's economy in 3 seconds. Storm drops in SC2, though certainly possible, are also kind of underwhelming. The radius is tiny, the damage is lower. Doesn't it take like, 4+ storms to cover a mineral line and the likely escape route?
I didn't argue over the effectiveness of Warp prism - colossus play.
On April 21 2012 14:40 YMCApylons wrote: In SC2, Protoss play needs a big kick in the pants away from 2-base timing pushes...Bisu/Stork, please show the way.
Don't switch to terran, Bisu! Your insane APM will serve you well, but I think you'll love warp gates more.
Bisu and Stork will make Huk, MC, and Hero look like chobos with warp prisms.
On April 21 2012 14:40 YMCApylons wrote: In SC2, Protoss play needs a big kick in the pants away from 2-base timing pushes...Bisu/Stork, please show the way.
Don't switch to terran, Bisu! Your insane APM will serve you well, but I think you'll love warp gates more.
Bisu and Stork will make Huk, MC, and Hero look like chobos with warp prisms.
You mean Stork with his 200ish apm..?
Bisu I can understand, but Stork was never known for his harassment
My point is that with the goddamnslow 200 apm, Stork is well known for his shuttle reaver control, surely, better than Bisu. So, then, in SCII, he will show his Warp Prisms-anyunit control, why not ? And that man said he can understand about the Bisu part and !@#$%^&*() about Stork ? lol ?
I just got mad since someone dares to underestimate Stork even with his 200ish APM. And Warp Prisms - Colossus was just an example
On April 21 2012 14:40 YMCApylons wrote: In SC2, Protoss play needs a big kick in the pants away from 2-base timing pushes...Bisu/Stork, please show the way.
Don't switch to terran, Bisu! Your insane APM will serve you well, but I think you'll love warp gates more.
Bisu and Stork will make Huk, MC, and Hero look like chobos with warp prisms.
You mean Stork with his 200ish apm..?
Bisu I can understand, but Stork was never known for his harassment
His godly well-known Shuttle-Reaver play => Colossus-Warp Prisms ?
Colossus-Warp Prism is utterly useless. I watched a clip of HerO doing a colossus drop on a mineral line once, and though it was relatively impressive and I admired him for trying to inject some interesting harass in the otherwise dull game, it took a really long time (every time he dropped it, it killed like, 1 or 2 SCVs at a time), and wasn't particularly effective. Nothing like a reaver drop which has the potential to wipe out 10 workers in one explosion, or a BW storm drop that completely decimates a person's economy in 3 seconds. Storm drops in SC2, though certainly possible, are also kind of underwhelming. The radius is tiny, the damage is lower. Doesn't it take like, 4+ storms to cover a mineral line and the likely escape route?
Drones have 40 hp, and SCVs have 45 hp (HTemplars in PvP sucks) and Storm deals 80damage/4sec. It takes 2 (well-placed) storms to cover an entire mineral line, so it would probably require 3 storms if people react in time.
If Bisu switch to Terran, they will NEVER get buffed again. Imagine Flash, Bisu, IMmvp (prolly wont even win another gsl once sc1 pros switch) and MMA as the leader for the terran race =) they will make even the BCs imba under their godly control. If Jaedong was to go terran too, then the win rate for gsl/kespa league will be terran 100% while anyone below S class level (not code S) will have 0% win rate with them because everything Flash/Bisu/Jaedong use balance =)
I would really like to see the Protoss race developed further. As it stands, a Protoss player can execute a very easy to pull off build and take games off nearly any zerg player with a 2 base timing. Turtling against Terran will lead to a free win 10 minutes later, with a massive deathball that hardly requires micro.
Speed warp prisms are the fastest air unit in the game I think (or one of the fastest), and no one makes anti drop defence vs Protoss, because nearly all Protoss players don't use the warp prism properly at all. Most leave them in the main to die after 1 warp in, its ridiculous. At least Terrans drop and pick up units even if they are dropping 3 places at once.
On April 21 2012 14:40 YMCApylons wrote: In SC2, Protoss play needs a big kick in the pants away from 2-base timing pushes...Bisu/Stork, please show the way.
Don't switch to terran, Bisu! Your insane APM will serve you well, but I think you'll love warp gates more.
Bisu and Stork will make Huk, MC, and Hero look like chobos with warp prisms.
You mean Stork with his 200ish apm..?
Bisu I can understand, but Stork was never known for his harassment
His godly well-known Shuttle-Reaver play => Colossus-Warp Prisms ?
Colossus-Warp Prism is utterly useless. I watched a clip of HerO doing a colossus drop on a mineral line once, and though it was relatively impressive and I admired him for trying to inject some interesting harass in the otherwise dull game, it took a really long time (every time he dropped it, it killed like, 1 or 2 SCVs at a time), and wasn't particularly effective. Nothing like a reaver drop which has the potential to wipe out 10 workers in one explosion, or a BW storm drop that completely decimates a person's economy in 3 seconds. Storm drops in SC2, though certainly possible, are also kind of underwhelming. The radius is tiny, the damage is lower. Doesn't it take like, 4+ storms to cover a mineral line and the likely escape route?
Yes, that's why the most common prism harass is chargelot drops+ warpins.
tbh, following SC2 since 2010, the only players that has properly utilized Protoss ability to harass has been MC, White-ra, HerO and Sase.
compare it to MMA vs zerg harass, protoss harass options are laughable, now see Bisu vs zerg harass highlights from bw it resembles multi prong sc2 terran harassment rather than anything SC2 protoss can do. How many top SC2 terrans properly utilized harass? Almost every, because its part of the gameplay, while SC2 protoss is some bastard child of harassment.
I wouldn't mind this change tbh. Like I said in the coach thread, SC2 Protoss wouldn't make justice of Bisu's mechanics and skill while Terran would. Plus Protoss is no fun to play in sc2 because of the low skill cap (= slow gameplay) and like zero harass possiblities.
I won't mind if people want to change race for sc2, as long as they stay away from Protoss tbh.
On April 21 2012 14:40 YMCApylons wrote: In SC2, Protoss play needs a big kick in the pants away from 2-base timing pushes...Bisu/Stork, please show the way.
Don't switch to terran, Bisu! Your insane APM will serve you well, but I think you'll love warp gates more.
Bisu and Stork will make Huk, MC, and Hero look like chobos with warp prisms.
You mean Stork with his 200ish apm..?
Bisu I can understand, but Stork was never known for his harassment
His godly well-known Shuttle-Reaver play => Colossus-Warp Prisms ?
Colossus-Warp Prism is utterly useless. I watched a clip of HerO doing a colossus drop on a mineral line once, and though it was relatively impressive and I admired him for trying to inject some interesting harass in the otherwise dull game, it took a really long time (every time he dropped it, it killed like, 1 or 2 SCVs at a time), and wasn't particularly effective. Nothing like a reaver drop which has the potential to wipe out 10 workers in one explosion, or a BW storm drop that completely decimates a person's economy in 3 seconds. Storm drops in SC2, though certainly possible, are also kind of underwhelming. The radius is tiny, the damage is lower. Doesn't it take like, 4+ storms to cover a mineral line and the likely escape route?
Yes, that's why the most common prism harass is chargelot drops+ warpins.
tbh, following SC2 since 2010, the only players that has properly utilized Protoss ability to harass has been MC, White-ra, HerO and Sase.
compare it to MMA vs zerg harass, protoss harass options are laughable, now see Bisu vs zerg harass highlights from bw it resembles multi prong sc2 terran harassment rather than anything SC2 protoss can do. How many top SC2 terrans properly utilized harass? Almost every, because its part of the gameplay, while SC2 protoss is some bastard child of harassment.
I don't wanna stray from the topic too much but here's my thoughts on the topic:
I think it's a side effect of how toss used to play before about 2 months ago where you never could split your army. Nowadays it seems like the pros are able to trade alot more efficiently because of cheaper upgrades, thus possibly opening up more oppurtunities for harass, I'm pretty interested in how BW players could utilize this, because they have higher EAPM than most SC2 pros.
quoting Gosi
The thing that will suck with a switch is to see those players staying/switching to Protoss in sc2. Just the thought seeing Bisu play sc2 Protoss makes me cringe so bad. All that multitasking skill and possibility wasted because the race design punish you for multitasking because your race suck ass if it's not in a deathball and you have minimal harass potential...
At least Terran and Zerg rewards good mechanics and can be a challenge to handle even with MBS because you have to hit injects and spread creep, do multipronged attacks, drop, split and kite etc during the fast phased gameplay than can occur. With Protoss you almost don't do anything. You make probes, pylons, press W every 40 seconds or whatever the warpgate cooldown is and then press where you want your units to spawn with your mouse, produce from your robo and upgrade when you have the tech. It's sad when you watch PvZ or PvT and look at the production tab, it's almost always empty for Protoss.
In the end if everyone's play will rise up even god among gods like Bisu will look boring when playing as protoss. Who cares if for now 10 times better player would play Protoss and get the last 5% of the race effectiveness if Terran and Zerg gives you almost infinite potential?
Protoss harassment is linear, its mostly zealot warpins, compare it to Reaver (and scarab mechanics) and templar drops. And the idea of MACROING from gateways. Warp mechanic is boring, it made core unit weak so protoss depends on large amount (death ball). Replacing mobile/micro intensive units like Reaver with static powerful units that are vulnerable without protection (collosus). I can go on, but those flaws are even acknowledged by blizzard...
On April 21 2012 14:40 YMCApylons wrote: In SC2, Protoss play needs a big kick in the pants away from 2-base timing pushes...Bisu/Stork, please show the way.
Don't switch to terran, Bisu! Your insane APM will serve you well, but I think you'll love warp gates more.
Bisu and Stork will make Huk, MC, and Hero look like chobos with warp prisms.
You mean Stork with his 200ish apm..?
Bisu I can understand, but Stork was never known for his harassment
His godly well-known Shuttle-Reaver play => Colossus-Warp Prisms ?
Colossus-Warp Prism is utterly useless. I watched a clip of HerO doing a colossus drop on a mineral line once, and though it was relatively impressive and I admired him for trying to inject some interesting harass in the otherwise dull game, it took a really long time (every time he dropped it, it killed like, 1 or 2 SCVs at a time), and wasn't particularly effective. Nothing like a reaver drop which has the potential to wipe out 10 workers in one explosion, or a BW storm drop that completely decimates a person's economy in 3 seconds. Storm drops in SC2, though certainly possible, are also kind of underwhelming. The radius is tiny, the damage is lower. Doesn't it take like, 4+ storms to cover a mineral line and the likely escape route?
Yes, that's why the most common prism harass is chargelot drops+ warpins.
tbh, following SC2 since 2010, the only players that has properly utilized Protoss ability to harass has been MC, White-ra, HerO and Sase.
compare it to MMA vs zerg harass, protoss harass options are laughable, now see Bisu vs zerg harass highlights from bw it resembles multi prong sc2 terran harassment rather than anything SC2 protoss can do. How many top SC2 terrans properly utilized harass? Almost every, because its part of the gameplay, while SC2 protoss is some bastard child of harassment.
I don't wanna stray from the topic too much but here's my thoughts on the topic:
I think it's a side effect of how toss used to play before about 2 months ago where you never could split your army. Nowadays it seems like the pros are able to trade alot more efficiently because of cheaper upgrades, thus possibly opening up more oppurtunities for harass, I'm pretty interested in how BW players could utilize this, because they have higher EAPM than most SC2 pros.
The thing that will suck with a switch is to see those players staying/switching to Protoss in sc2. Just the thought seeing Bisu play sc2 Protoss makes me cringe so bad. All that multitasking skill and possibility wasted because the race design punish you for multitasking because your race suck ass if it's not in a deathball and you have minimal harass potential...
At least Terran and Zerg rewards good mechanics and can be a challenge to handle even with MBS because you have to hit injects and spread creep, do multipronged attacks, drop, split and kite etc during the fast phased gameplay than can occur. With Protoss you almost don't do anything. You make probes, pylons, press W every 40 seconds or whatever the warpgate cooldown is and then press where you want your units to spawn with your mouse, produce from your robo and upgrade when you have the tech. It's sad when you watch PvZ or PvT and look at the production tab, it's almost always empty for Protoss.
In the end if everyone's play will rise up even god among gods like Bisu will look boring when playing as protoss. Who cares if for now 10 times better player would play Protoss and get the last 5% of the race effectiveness if Terran and Zerg gives you almost infinite potential?
Protoss harassment is linear, its mostly zealot warpins, compare it to Reaver (and scarab mechanics) and templar drops. And the idea of MACROING from gateways. Warp mechanic is boring, it made core unit weak so protoss depends on large amount (death ball). Replacing mobile/micro intensive units like Reaver with static powerful units that are vulnerable without protection (collosus). I can go on, but those flaws are even acknowledged by blizzard...
Watch someone like hero play. The potential there, not enough people take advantage of it. I'd hope people like Bisu would finally HAVE the EPM to use the stuff hero does, and take it to a new level and show that protoss at high levels CAN be awesome if you have the chops.
On April 21 2012 10:25 GGQ wrote: Noooo Bisu you must be Protoss! My mind can't even figure out what I would do if Bisu played a different race. It'd just be wrong.
It's worth noting that in SC2 there's an odd inversion of the TvP matchup. BW Protoss has an army that was (at its core) more mobile and consists largely of T1 units supported by a smaller number of high tech units, and BW Terran has an army of less mobile splash-heavy high tech units with a throwaway mineral dump that is surprisingly effective. Sc2 Protoss has an army that builds up to a deathball of less mobile splash-heavy high tech units with a throwaway mineral dump that is surprisingly effective, and Sc2 Terran has an army that is (at its core) more mobile and consists largely of T1 units supported by a smaller number of high tech units.
I think Bisu would make a fine Terran player in Sc2.
I tried to avoid the news to keep my hopes up that BW would live as we know it at least until the end of the season, but it seems my hopes are way too naive.
Reading these topics it seems the switch isn't a possibility anymore and it is a certainty. A closer and closer certainty
I've been around TL since 2006 (even tho I only registered in 2010) and I've followed pro BW ever since and the ending of it saddens me a lot
I watch SC2 aswell but...losing BW isn't going to be compensated by watching more SC2, I treat them as 2 different games.
It will be very strange watching these players play another game and possibly another race. The terran Bisu isn't a sight I'm eager to see to be honest.
On April 21 2012 10:25 GGQ wrote: Noooo Bisu you must be Protoss! My mind can't even figure out what I would do if Bisu played a different race. It'd just be wrong.
You know that Bisu was originally Terran in BW right?
(so was Best)
So was Stork. But they all found their true (and far superior) calling.
Once you go Aiur, you can't go back.
Kiett getting it right, this guy stands for protoss, if they have to switch they should atleast stay true to themselves.
Haha, I said that so long time ago! If Bisu were to play SC2 he better switch to Terran! It would fit him so good. He would be a much stronger Terran I feel!
This interview makes it sound like BW progamers think the races in SC:BW and SC2 play out the same way. I think there is a big difference in how different races work in SC2 compared to BW. Protoss and Terran are like opposite in PvT from BW to SC2. Terran even play with bio in that match, that alone is a complete change from BW.
On April 21 2012 10:25 GGQ wrote: Noooo Bisu you must be Protoss! My mind can't even figure out what I would do if Bisu played a different race. It'd just be wrong.
It's worth noting that in SC2 there's an odd inversion of the TvP matchup. BW Protoss has an army that was (at its core) more mobile and consists largely of T1 units supported by a smaller number of high tech units, and BW Terran has an army of less mobile splash-heavy high tech units with a throwaway mineral dump that is surprisingly effective. Sc2 Protoss has an army that builds up to a deathball of less mobile splash-heavy high tech units with a throwaway mineral dump that is surprisingly effective, and Sc2 Terran has an army that is (at its core) more mobile and consists largely of T1 units supported by a smaller number of high tech units.
I think Bisu would make a fine Terran player in Sc2.
I think if the colossus' weakness was slower movement speed, or somehow otherwise impaired mobility instead of being vulnerable to anti-air, the matchup would look even more similar to BW TvP, and in my opinion be even more exciting. It would even cause terran to stop making vikings every single game, and carrier switches could once again be a good idea in some situations
Clarification: BraQ is MK Bisu isn't real Bisu, forgot who, but it was just some current top sc2 player, nothing special. Obviously don't know all the IlIlIlIlIlIlI accounts, but they include MK, byun, most slayers guys, drg, losira.
Bisu. With a race where he can actually use up his godly multitasking skills to do stuff other than storm drop and a-move zealots/DTs/corsairs like a bitch.
Bisu probably could FF all the map chokes simultaneously.
If he wants to win all he needs is to exploit that bullshit spell that removes 100% of oponnents micro skill out of the equation. In BW we have imbalanced spells, but it is actually balanced around that imbalance so the imbalance balanced BW, be it imba spells or race-favorited maps.
But in SC2 there is no such imbalanced balance, SC2 is such a frankstein.
On April 21 2012 22:20 fabiano wrote: Bisu probably could FF all the map chokes simultaneously.
If he wants to win all he needs is to exploit that bullshit spell that removes 100% of oponnents micro skill out of the equation. In BW we have imbalanced spells, but it is actually balanced around that imbalance so the imbalance balanced BW, be it imba spells or race-favorited maps.
But in SC2 there is no such imbalanced balance, SC2 is such a franksteinvg.
On April 21 2012 10:25 GGQ wrote: Noooo Bisu you must be Protoss! My mind can't even figure out what I would do if Bisu played a different race. It'd just be wrong.
You know that Bisu was originally Terran in BW right?
(so was Best)
So was Stork. But they all found their true (and far superior) calling.
Once you go Aiur, you can't go back.
a few of the progamers told me stork enjoys playing Terran in SC2 and probably would switch to it back during one of the MLGs.
of course since then things changed but just putting it out there
On April 21 2012 22:20 fabiano wrote: Bisu probably could FF all the map chokes simultaneously.
If he wants to win all he needs is to exploit that bullshit spell that removes 100% of oponnents micro skill out of the equation. In BW we have imbalanced spells, but it is actually balanced around that imbalance so the imbalance balanced BW, be it imba spells or race-favorited maps.
But in SC2 there is no such imbalanced balance, SC2 is such a franksteinvg.
Imbalance-ception?
As stupid as it sounds, his badly written post has a point. If you looked at BW units/compositions in sc2 context, you'd shit yourself over how broken some of them are. I mean really, a unit with infinite energy that can reduce more than half the damage zerg takes from terran, while reducing an entire HUGE clump of enemy units to 1 HP? How about storm + reaver being ridiculous to the point that bio play wasnt even an option against toss? The terran 3/3 mech army? Somehow the ridiculousness balances out, and that makes for an awesome, awesome spectator sport.
On April 21 2012 10:25 GGQ wrote: Noooo Bisu you must be Protoss! My mind can't even figure out what I would do if Bisu played a different race. It'd just be wrong.
You know that Bisu was originally Terran in BW right?
(so was Best)
So was Stork. But they all found their true (and far superior) calling.
Once you go Aiur, you can't go back.
a few of the progamers told me stork enjoys playing Terran in SC2 and probably would switch to it back during one of the MLGs.
of course since then things changed but just putting it out there
sry I don't trust the words of evil zergs who try to hydra bust sweet innocent protosses and then, upon failure to break down the gosu defense and sick storms, switch to desperate muta all ins.
On April 21 2012 10:25 GGQ wrote: Noooo Bisu you must be Protoss! My mind can't even figure out what I would do if Bisu played a different race. It'd just be wrong.
You know that Bisu was originally Terran in BW right?
(so was Best)
So was Stork. But they all found their true (and far superior) calling.
Once you go Aiur, you can't go back.
a few of the progamers told me stork enjoys playing Terran in SC2 and probably would switch to it back during one of the MLGs.
of course since then things changed but just putting it out there
sry I don't trust the words of evil zergs who try to hydra bust sweet innocent protosses and then, upon failure to break down the gosu defense and sick storms, switch to desperate muta all ins.
On April 21 2012 22:20 fabiano wrote: In BW we have imbalanced spells, but it is actually balanced around that imbalance so the imbalance balanced BW, be it imba spells or race-favorited maps.
My brain hurts... I mean I know what you are talking about, but they you have putted words is just ouch.
On April 21 2012 23:36 Rinnegan5 wrote: It doesnt matter what they play MKP will crush them all.
in all honestly MKP will probably always be near the top until he gets old. he will compete with bisu/flash/JD if they switch and be considered up there with them easily. the guy works harder than anyone else in SC2. He'll just keep up his ridiculous practice schedules and be fine.
This is going to be very interesting to see the transition from Brood War to StarCraft 2. The racial changes isn't much of a big deal, but it is for the fans who support that race and look up to those pros for playing that race. As long as there happy playing their race and it just works for them.
I honestly think the top brood war guys like flash, jaedong, bisu switching from brood war to starcraft 2 is like a chess grandmaster switching over to connect 4.
While it's undeniable Terran Harrass is the strongest out of the two races, the introduction of the Oracle is more hope for multipronged Protoss Harass. With the warp prism, multiple warp ins over the map, and the Oracle, we could be seeing some more out of Protoss. I'm looking forward to it. The Oracle ability to prevent the opponent mining resources, aswel as disabling buildings for amounts of time is really dynamic .
On April 22 2012 00:51 snakeeyez wrote: I honestly think the top brood war guys like flash, jaedong, bisu switching from brood war to starcraft 2 is like a chess grandmaster switching over to connect 4.
The argument that "Its far to late to swich races" seems stupid to me. Also so what if terran seems the strongest, there will be patches, I dont know why they would pick a race they would have less fun with over this.
On April 21 2012 10:25 GGQ wrote: Noooo Bisu you must be Protoss! My mind can't even figure out what I would do if Bisu played a different race. It'd just be wrong.
You know that Bisu was originally Terran in BW right?
(so was Best)
So was Stork. But they all found their true (and far superior) calling.
Dont assume it guys, please. I read the previous thread about BW coaches talking about SC2, and SKT1 coach told other coaches that their maximum rank is Diamond. So currently, no GM.
On April 22 2012 02:07 Messi wrote: Dont assume it guys, please. I read the previous thread about BW coaches talking about SC2, and SKT1 coach told other coaches that their maximum rank is Diamond. So currently, no GM.
I certainly wouldn't assume what Coach Park said is true haha. Everyone was ganging up on him, I'm pretty sure he was just joking.
On April 22 2012 02:07 Messi wrote: Dont assume it guys, please. I read the previous thread about BW coaches talking about SC2, and SKT1 coach told other coaches that their maximum rank is Diamond. So currently, no GM.
I bet if they played more than 100 games(and never touched sc2 before), the diamond part was a joke. I know korean server is much harder than EU\NA, but come on.
ya it's MarineKing. afaik FBH was in the military.. and the dude was playing at random KST hours on Bomber, Heart streams a few months back so it definitely can't be him.
What are people going by to assume that these grandmaster players are BW pros? Of course they're all very skilled RTS players, but I doubt they're good enough to reach Korean GM with only a few months of practice, during which they were also practicing for BW leagues.
These accounts are all likely top SC2 player's (read:MarineKing) smurfs.
edit: Also I like how players of each race say they're considering switching due to imbalance.
On April 21 2012 21:31 wojciech wrote: I'm curious how SC2 balance will look like after zerg expansion, it couldn't be worse than today... or could it?
What do you mean? That zerg is overpowered? By saying that you contradict 3 korean progamers who are switching races because of imbalance. Who do you think has most insight?
On April 21 2012 21:31 wojciech wrote: I'm curious how SC2 balance will look like after zerg expansion, it couldn't be worse than today... or could it?
What do you mean? That zerg is overpowered? By saying that you contradict 3 korean progamers who are switching races because of imbalance. Who do you think has most insight?
Three teenage guys that have barely any experience at all in sc2 said something was imbalanced? Please tell me more about how solid this proof is.
I'm sad about this because the last thing SC2 needs is another amazing terran. Not that its realistic, but if they made all the BW players pick only either Z or P then the SC2 scene in KR might start to balance itself out.
It makes sense that BW players would gravitate towards terran though.... medivacs and marines are multitaskers dreams comes true.
Your medics now fly, carry 8 units, don't collide w/ ground units, give sight to high ground and can be produced 2 at a time.... sounds good.
On April 22 2012 02:50 dsousa wrote: I'm sad about this because the last thing SC2 needs is another amazing terran. Not that its realistic, but if they made all the BW players pick only either Z or P then the SC2 scene in KR might start to balance itself out.
It makes sense that BW players would gravitate towards terran though.... medivacs and marines are multitaskers dreams comes true.
Your medics now fly, carry 8 units, don't collide w/ ground units, give sight to high ground and can be produced 2 at a time.... sounds good.
On April 22 2012 02:07 Messi wrote: Dont assume it guys, please. I read the previous thread about BW coaches talking about SC2, and SKT1 coach told other coaches that their maximum rank is Diamond. So currently, no GM.
Don't assume that anything a coach says is true
That goes both ways.
But wasn't there a thread not too long back with confirmed profiles of BW pros? I'm sure some were like high Masters/low GM. So some were doing quite well.
On April 22 2012 02:50 dsousa wrote: I'm sad about this because the last thing SC2 needs is another amazing terran. Not that its realistic, but if they made all the BW players pick only either Z or P then the SC2 scene in KR might start to balance itself out.
It makes sense that BW players would gravitate towards terran though.... medivacs and marines are multitaskers dreams comes true.
Your medics now fly, carry 8 units, don't collide w/ ground units, give sight to high ground and can be produced 2 at a time.... sounds good.
@ earlier post: pretty sure that the coach was lying. I play my cousin and his friends sometimes, and they're on the KR/TW server and most of them are diamond. I'm mid-masters, and I can match most of them n a serious game. That was during Spring break, and I haven't played since then, so I'm probably worse than them now. Still, point made.
Course, it'd be cool if I played, say, Flash and won. Even if it was on SC2. He was offracing. And I six pooled.
On April 22 2012 00:51 snakeeyez wrote: I honestly think the top brood war guys like flash, jaedong, bisu switching from brood war to starcraft 2 is like a chess grandmaster switching over to connect 4.
Hahaha so funny but also so true.
There is some truth to that, but at the same time though the mechanics are easier, the ceiling still hasn't been reached. Despite the easier mechanics there are still so many things you can do that you don't have the APM for. I can just imagine a game now with Bisu's nearly unlimited APM, especially how micro-intensive terran can be. MMmm.
Reading this thread is making me want to kill myself. It's the end of the most epic s-eport ever and people are just jerking each other off at the "Loolololol Bisu P or T?" "loololol Flash Terran OP in SC2!?!??!"
I'm so sad inside seriously, it literally feels like I'm losing a loved one. From my point of view, SC2 is boring as hell and no matter how many BW pros you put into it, it will still be SC2 and not entertaining (Again, my opinion of course).
It seems I will have to remove teamliquid from my bookmark after this OSL.
I really wish bisu wouldn't switch, but I can completely understand why he would make the decision. TLPD winrates have put terran on the top and toss on the bottom for pretty much every month SC2 has been out. No amount of of nostalgia value will make up for the fact that, from a progamer's perspective, choosing protoss is flat out stupid.
On April 22 2012 02:38 Eufouria wrote: What are people going by to assume that these grandmaster players are BW pros? Of course they're all very skilled RTS players, but I doubt they're good enough to reach Korean GM with only a few months of practice, during which they were also practicing for BW leagues.
These accounts are all likely top SC2 player's (read:MarineKing) smurfs.
edit: Also I like how players of each race say they're considering switching due to imbalance.
I'm pretty sure their skill would allow them to get into GM in a month or less. However, when GM is locked it's almost impossible to get in the league.
On April 22 2012 03:13 Zephos wrote: I really wish bisu wouldn't switch, but I can completely understand why he would make the decision. TLPD winrates have put terran on the top and toss on the bottom for pretty much every month SC2 has been out. No amount of of nostalgia value will make up for the fact that, from a progamer's perspective, choosing protoss is flat out stupid.
Things change over time. There's 2 expansions coming, and already the units announced for HotS will destroy everything we know about SC2 right now. There's really no reason to think a race that's OP right this second will continue to be OP in the future. So Bisu and everyone else should pick the race that plays to their strengths.
Also, the consensus right now is that protoss is not weak anymore. I'm honestly not sure even though I follow SC2 closely. In any case, the relative strengths and player results as they stand right now are a very bad reason to pick races.
On April 22 2012 03:13 Zephos wrote: I really wish bisu wouldn't switch, but I can completely understand why he would make the decision. TLPD winrates have put terran on the top and toss on the bottom for pretty much every month SC2 has been out. No amount of of nostalgia value will make up for the fact that, from a progamer's perspective, choosing protoss is flat out stupid.
On April 21 2012 10:25 GGQ wrote: Noooo Bisu you must be Protoss! My mind can't even figure out what I would do if Bisu played a different race. It'd just be wrong.
You know that Bisu was originally Terran in BW right?
(so was Best)
So was Stork. But they all found their true (and far superior) calling.
I really want to see jaedong and flash play sc2 to see if they can dominate. Also will they be playing in the gsl or other events or are they still stuck with kespa??
I just want him to do well, but going terran would be a bit depressing... :-/ Then again how many new things can you do with protoss when compared to the other races? I feel like there is still a lot to be explored, but Protoss has the fewest options.
On April 21 2012 11:06 Fanek wrote: IllIllIlIlII - this is one of MKP account, also Puzzle and other Slayers players and other SC2 pross
i can bet pros BW using koreans nicknames, example: "Horang2 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before" so he probably get GM also in season 7, so it could be this guy http://sc2ranks.com/kr/869893/로켓단
No, most likely not. And the last guy is hannibal, certainly not flash. To think that the top BW pros would be top of GM with 80% winrate playing only part time is way overestimating their abilities. That's close to MKP status. It took both forgg and hyun a lot longer to achieve anything even close to that.
To compare Flash to any other human is blasphemy, his losses in the finals are explained by the fact hes probably been playing SC2 so much.
On April 21 2012 11:06 Fanek wrote: IllIllIlIlII - this is one of MKP account, also Puzzle and other Slayers players and other SC2 pross
i can bet pros BW using koreans nicknames, example: "Horang2 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before" so he probably get GM also in season 7, so it could be this guy http://sc2ranks.com/kr/869893/로켓단
No, most likely not. And the last guy is hannibal, certainly not flash. To think that the top BW pros would be top of GM with 80% winrate playing only part time is way overestimating their abilities. That's close to MKP status. It took both forgg and hyun a lot longer to achieve anything even close to that.
To compare Flash to any other human is blasphemy, his losses in the finals are explained by the fact hes probably been playing SC2 so much.
You think KT was playing sc2 as they had to climb from 4th place to the finals? there's no way, especially their ace.
On April 21 2012 11:06 Fanek wrote: IllIllIlIlII - this is one of MKP account, also Puzzle and other Slayers players and other SC2 pross
i can bet pros BW using koreans nicknames, example: "Horang2 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before" so he probably get GM also in season 7, so it could be this guy http://sc2ranks.com/kr/869893/로켓단
No, most likely not. And the last guy is hannibal, certainly not flash. To think that the top BW pros would be top of GM with 80% winrate playing only part time is way overestimating their abilities. That's close to MKP status. It took both forgg and hyun a lot longer to achieve anything even close to that.
To compare Flash to any other human is blasphemy, his losses in the finals are explained by the fact hes probably been playing SC2 so much.
You think KT was playing sc2 as they had to climb from 4th place to the finals? there's no way, especially their ace.
On April 21 2012 11:06 Fanek wrote: IllIllIlIlII - this is one of MKP account, also Puzzle and other Slayers players and other SC2 pross
i can bet pros BW using koreans nicknames, example: "Horang2 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before" so he probably get GM also in season 7, so it could be this guy http://sc2ranks.com/kr/869893/로켓단
No, most likely not. And the last guy is hannibal, certainly not flash. To think that the top BW pros would be top of GM with 80% winrate playing only part time is way overestimating their abilities. That's close to MKP status. It took both forgg and hyun a lot longer to achieve anything even close to that.
To compare Flash to any other human is blasphemy, his losses in the finals are explained by the fact hes probably been playing SC2 so much.
You think KT was playing sc2 as they had to climb from 4th place to the finals? there's no way, especially their ace.
I was joking. About the second part atleast : P
ah okay all is forgiven then I was a bit stunned anyone would believe Flash lost in the finals because of him playing sc2 =/
On April 22 2012 06:52 ivirj wrote: Bisu P is special in everyway because of his multitasking, thats why i love to watch his games.
Sc2 is not a very heavy multitasking game unlike bw i dont think the race he choose is gonna matter that much.
SC2 may not be as multitasking heavy as BW, but don't try to claim it's not a heavy multitasking game in it's own right. That's a flat out lie. Maybe in silver league people don't multitask but i think you'll find there is a ton of multitasking at pro level.
On April 21 2012 11:06 Fanek wrote: IllIllIlIlII - this is one of MKP account, also Puzzle and other Slayers players and other SC2 pross
i can bet pros BW using koreans nicknames, example: "Horang2 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before" so he probably get GM also in season 7, so it could be this guy http://sc2ranks.com/kr/869893/로켓단
No, most likely not. And the last guy is hannibal, certainly not flash. To think that the top BW pros would be top of GM with 80% winrate playing only part time is way overestimating their abilities. That's close to MKP status. It took both forgg and hyun a lot longer to achieve anything even close to that.
To compare Flash to any other human is blasphemy, his losses in the finals are explained by the fact hes probably been playing SC2 so much.
You guys really overvalue Flash's skills. He's just a human. We've seen that in the SPL finals - Fantasy flat out outplayed him, in Ace match against Bisu he made stupid decisions. It will take him and any other pro a lot of the time to catch up to players like MKP, Nestea etc.
On April 22 2012 03:13 Zephos wrote: I really wish bisu wouldn't switch, but I can completely understand why he would make the decision. TLPD winrates have put terran on the top and toss on the bottom for pretty much every month SC2 has been out. No amount of of nostalgia value will make up for the fact that, from a progamer's perspective, choosing protoss is flat out stupid.
....Look at the GSL. Protoss is in no way weak.
Yeah, look at the GSL. We've had only one protoss player win it (mc) and it was quite a long time ago. Your argument is solid.
so what kind of the skillsets you need to be a top protoss player? like something that is more important for toss than for the other two races? i think most progamers can play all races on about equal levels if they try and learn?
On April 21 2012 11:06 Fanek wrote: IllIllIlIlII - this is one of MKP account, also Puzzle and other Slayers players and other SC2 pross
i can bet pros BW using koreans nicknames, example: "Horang2 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before" so he probably get GM also in season 7, so it could be this guy http://sc2ranks.com/kr/869893/로켓단
No, most likely not. And the last guy is hannibal, certainly not flash. To think that the top BW pros would be top of GM with 80% winrate playing only part time is way overestimating their abilities. That's close to MKP status. It took both forgg and hyun a lot longer to achieve anything even close to that.
To compare Flash to any other human is blasphemy, his losses in the finals are explained by the fact hes probably been playing SC2 so much.
You guys really overvalue Flash's skills. He's just a human. We've seen that in the SPL finals - Fantasy flat out outplayed him, in Ace match against Bisu he made stupid decisions. It will take him and any other pro a lot of the time to catch up to players like MKP, Nestea etc.
Flash's ability to adapt is unparalleled. He relies on his incredible game sense and timings to secure his victories, not his mechanics. Any BW pro who switches over will have top mechanics on the scene, but what will separate the best from the rest will be game sense and hard work (I don't think anyone trains as hard as flash does, and his work ethic will carry over to ensure he stays on the top).
It will be funny to see that when BW elitists' predictions regarding domination by Flash and Jaedong fall flat, they will immediately blame it on SC2's game design. Calling it now and I'm gonna necro this thread when it happens.
On April 22 2012 08:45 Doodsmack wrote: It will be funny to see that when BW elitists' predictions regarding domination by Flash and Jaedong fall flat, they will immediately blame it on SC2's game design. Calling it now and I'm gonna necro this thread when it happens.
On April 22 2012 08:45 Doodsmack wrote: It will be funny to see that when BW elitists' predictions regarding domination by Flash and Jaedong fall flat, they will immediately blame it on SC2's game design. Calling it now and I'm gonna necro this thread when it happens.
lol that post is awesome. I hope they do well, and I'm sure they'll do well. It's just natural
On April 22 2012 08:45 Doodsmack wrote: It will be funny to see that when BW elitists' predictions regarding domination by Flash and Jaedong fall flat, they will immediately blame it on SC2's game design. Calling it now and I'm gonna necro this thread when it happens.
It's not "BW elitists," simple logic would tell you they would both do well. They can both play every part of the game (micro, multitask, macro, mind games, etc.) at a high level AND practice a lot. That's the thing, if they practice as much as they do now there's basically no logical reason for them to not be top-tier players in sc2, even disregarding their current BW skill.
It really depends, how do you know TBLS will actually like the game? If the game is boring for them or there's no drive to do well not quite sure they will be the best. It's like in the interview, it's a reset and whoever has the biggest drive, practices the most and gets information from current sc2 pros will do the best imo.
sc2 also has a low skill ceiling so I think whoever just practices the most and gets used to every different situation the game throws at them will do the best.
On April 22 2012 10:39 Norada wrote: It really depends, how do you know TBLS will actually like the game? If the game is boring for them or there's no drive to do well not quite sure they will be the best. It's like in the interview, it's a reset and whoever has the biggest drive, practices the most and gets information from current sc2 pros will do the best imo.
sc2 also has a low skill ceiling so I think whoever just practices the most and gets used to every different situation the game throws at them will do the best.
People like you need to be banned for trolling unless you can prove SC2 has a low skill ceiling.
On April 21 2012 10:25 GGQ wrote: Noooo Bisu you must be Protoss! My mind can't even figure out what I would do if Bisu played a different race. It'd just be wrong.
Bisu's multitasking and apm would be wasted on protoss. That would be just wrong.
On April 21 2012 10:25 GGQ wrote: Noooo Bisu you must be Protoss! My mind can't even figure out what I would do if Bisu played a different race. It'd just be wrong.
Bisu's multitasking and apm would be wasted on protoss. That would be just wrong.
not agree, i want to see bisu use 3 warp prisms, have 6 phoenixes and that new protoss unit that stops mining all at once
On April 22 2012 10:39 Norada wrote: It really depends, how do you know TBLS will actually like the game? If the game is boring for them or there's no drive to do well not quite sure they will be the best. It's like in the interview, it's a reset and whoever has the biggest drive, practices the most and gets information from current sc2 pros will do the best imo.
sc2 also has a low skill ceiling so I think whoever just practices the most and gets used to every different situation the game throws at them will do the best.
Considering the skill ceiling hasn't been reached and play is continually getting better I don't understand posts like this. That's why BW pros switching over is exciting...most people want SC2 to be stretched to its limit since no one is doing that now. There's way too much that isn't done correctly on a consistent basis to even suggest that the skill cap is close to being touched.
If BW players practice hard like they are used to doing, they can catch up to the current skill level and start paving the way for newer styles of play. That's when you'll see something special. HotS will be another reset...once everyone is thrown back to a fresh starting line, then we'll get to see a different type of SC2 evolve.
On April 22 2012 10:39 Norada wrote: It really depends, how do you know TBLS will actually like the game? If the game is boring for them or there's no drive to do well not quite sure they will be the best. It's like in the interview, it's a reset and whoever has the biggest drive, practices the most and gets information from current sc2 pros will do the best imo.
sc2 also has a low skill ceiling so I think whoever just practices the most and gets used to every different situation the game throws at them will do the best.
People like you need to be banned for trolling unless you can prove SC2 has a low skill ceiling.
It's more like:
People like you need to be banned for trolling unless you can prove SC2 hasn't a low skill ceiling.
Stop posting here and creating more BW vs sc2 rants.
On April 22 2012 10:39 Norada wrote: It really depends, how do you know TBLS will actually like the game? If the game is boring for them or there's no drive to do well not quite sure they will be the best. It's like in the interview, it's a reset and whoever has the biggest drive, practices the most and gets information from current sc2 pros will do the best imo.
sc2 also has a low skill ceiling so I think whoever just practices the most and gets used to every different situation the game throws at them will do the best.
People like you need to be banned for trolling unless you can prove SC2 has a low skill ceiling.
It's more like:
People like you need to be banned for trolling unless you can prove SC2 hasn't a low skill ceiling.
Stop posting here and creating more BW vs sc2 rants.
When people stop posting utter bullshit i'll stop calling them out. It's rediculous to say SC2 has a low skill ceiling. If the skill celing was so low, then we would see a ton more gamers at the same level, while in reality there aren't that many TOP TOP players. Also i think you should stop putting words in my mouth. I never mentioned BW at all. I didn't start any SC2 vs BW argument thanks.
I'm more intrigued by Flash possibly choosing Protoss as his race in SC2
curious if he can actually show something different with SC2 Protoss.
if I was a BW progamer choosing to play a SC2 race though, I'd be all over Terran
anyways, would have been interesting what BW players would have chosen if HotS came out or whether any will change their race after HotS comes out, but who knows when HotS will be released.
On April 21 2012 10:25 GGQ wrote: Noooo Bisu you must be Protoss! My mind can't even figure out what I would do if Bisu played a different race. It'd just be wrong.
You know that Bisu was originally Terran in BW right?
(so was Best)
So was Stork. But they all found their true (and far superior) calling.
Once you go Aiur, you can't go back.
Well said kiett, well said. I bet Bisu will go back to toss because he will like the Warp prism, since it can be used for things like collosus drops which are kinda like reaver drops except not as cool T.T, but also because of the warp mechanic which i believe he will like. I don't know what kind of imbalance they are talking about though.
On April 21 2012 10:25 GGQ wrote: Noooo Bisu you must be Protoss! My mind can't even figure out what I would do if Bisu played a different race. It'd just be wrong.
You know that Bisu was originally Terran in BW right?
(so was Best)
So was Stork. But they all found their true (and far superior) calling.
Once you go Aiur, you can't go back.
And for that matter, Nal_ra also started off as Terran. Nostalgic video:
On April 21 2012 10:25 GGQ wrote: Noooo Bisu you must be Protoss! My mind can't even figure out what I would do if Bisu played a different race. It'd just be wrong.
Bisu's multitasking and apm would be wasted on protoss. That would be just wrong.
not agree, i want to see bisu use 3 warp prisms, have 6 phoenixes and that new protoss unit that stops mining all at once
Actually now that I think about it, Protoss needs Bisu to help them innovate and show them how Protoss is meant to be played.
To all the people here that say that Bisu's mulitasking would be wasted on SC2 Protoss, watch LiquidHero play, he has topnotch multitasking. Now imagine that kind of multitasking multiplied hundredfold, and that, my friends, is how Bisu, being the Revolutionist that he is, will revolutionize SC2 Protoss.
if bisu switched to terran I would honestly be depressed. But his multitasking and his hands would pretty much be wasted on toss, so terran would probably be a good fit. There is no way for me to be happy with bisu playing sc2
At the absolute highest level, marines are the only unit that can provide the kind of satisfaction that players like Bisu find in Brood War. Not surprised at all.
On April 22 2012 10:39 Norada wrote: It really depends, how do you know TBLS will actually like the game? If the game is boring for them or there's no drive to do well not quite sure they will be the best. It's like in the interview, it's a reset and whoever has the biggest drive, practices the most and gets information from current sc2 pros will do the best imo.
sc2 also has a low skill ceiling so I think whoever just practices the most and gets used to every different situation the game throws at them will do the best.
People like you need to be banned for trolling unless you can prove SC2 has a low skill ceiling.
It's more like:
People like you need to be banned for trolling unless you can prove SC2 hasn't a low skill ceiling.
Stop posting here and creating more BW vs sc2 rants.
When people stop posting utter bullshit i'll stop calling them out. It's rediculous to say SC2 has a low skill ceiling. If the skill celing was so low, then we would see a ton more gamers at the same level, while in reality there aren't that many TOP TOP players. Also i think you should stop putting words in my mouth. I never mentioned BW at all. I didn't start any SC2 vs BW argument thanks.
lol, do you realise that something is "low" when you compare it to something else? I mean there's no way you can say Sc2 skill ceiling isn't/is low, unless you are comparing it to something, since we are in a RTS community, and the highest skill lies on BW, you are mentioning BW anyway.
Unless you live in a magical world where things that you can't measure have an absolute value, and a scale that measures how big/small that value is.
On April 22 2012 10:39 Norada wrote: It really depends, how do you know TBLS will actually like the game? If the game is boring for them or there's no drive to do well not quite sure they will be the best. It's like in the interview, it's a reset and whoever has the biggest drive, practices the most and gets information from current sc2 pros will do the best imo.
sc2 also has a low skill ceiling so I think whoever just practices the most and gets used to every different situation the game throws at them will do the best.
People like you need to be banned for trolling unless you can prove SC2 has a low skill ceiling.
It's more like:
People like you need to be banned for trolling unless you can prove SC2 hasn't a low skill ceiling.
Stop posting here and creating more BW vs sc2 rants.
When people stop posting utter bullshit i'll stop calling them out. It's rediculous to say SC2 has a low skill ceiling. If the skill celing was so low, then we would see a ton more gamers at the same level, while in reality there aren't that many TOP TOP players. Also i think you should stop putting words in my mouth. I never mentioned BW at all. I didn't start any SC2 vs BW argument thanks.
lol, do you realise that something is "low" when you compare it to something else? I mean there's no way you can say Sc2 skill ceiling isn't/is low, unless you are comparing it to something, since we are in a RTS community, and the highest skill lies on BW, you are mentioning BW anyway.
Unless you live in a magical world where things that you can't measure have an absolute value, and a scale that measures how big/small that value is.
IF we are comparing to BW. The we simply say BW has a HIGHER skill ceiling. Saying that doesn't make the SC2 skill ceiling LOW. How many games have a skill ceiling higher than SC2? IF it's just BW i'd call that a high skill ceiling.
On April 21 2012 10:25 GGQ wrote: Noooo Bisu you must be Protoss! My mind can't even figure out what I would do if Bisu played a different race. It'd just be wrong.
You know that Bisu was originally Terran in BW right?
(so was Best)
So was Stork. But they all found their true (and far superior) calling.
Once you go Aiur, you can't go back.
Unless you're boxer but boxer doesn't count because he can do anything. 0_0
As an E-sports newbie / SC2 fanboy, who still followed Brood War some before SC2 came out, this is awsome overall, but i figure it must be crushing for those who really love BW and will have to start watching an (according to most) inferior game.
On April 22 2012 15:50 derElbe wrote: Bisu as Terran will be my first terran i am a fan of.
Hoejja as toss is also good.
edit: and ALSO how did tasteless screwed up is voice so bad?
Years and years of smoking
I think he said once that it's actually not from smoking but rather to much screaming while casting SC for so many years. He has to drink warm water at every GSL break just to relieve his throat.
On April 22 2012 10:39 Norada wrote: It really depends, how do you know TBLS will actually like the game? If the game is boring for them or there's no drive to do well not quite sure they will be the best. It's like in the interview, it's a reset and whoever has the biggest drive, practices the most and gets information from current sc2 pros will do the best imo.
sc2 also has a low skill ceiling so I think whoever just practices the most and gets used to every different situation the game throws at them will do the best.
People like you need to be banned for trolling unless you can prove SC2 has a low skill ceiling.
It's more like:
People like you need to be banned for trolling unless you can prove SC2 hasn't a low skill ceiling.
Stop posting here and creating more BW vs sc2 rants.
When people stop posting utter bullshit i'll stop calling them out. It's rediculous to say SC2 has a low skill ceiling. If the skill celing was so low, then we would see a ton more gamers at the same level, while in reality there aren't that many TOP TOP players. Also i think you should stop putting words in my mouth. I never mentioned BW at all. I didn't start any SC2 vs BW argument thanks.
lol, do you realise that something is "low" when you compare it to something else? I mean there's no way you can say Sc2 skill ceiling isn't/is low, unless you are comparing it to something, since we are in a RTS community, and the highest skill lies on BW, you are mentioning BW anyway.
Unless you live in a magical world where things that you can't measure have an absolute value, and a scale that measures how big/small that value is.
You're mixing up skill ceiling with relative skill; a skill ceiling defines how much hypothetical room there is to improve in any given task. Relative skill defines the skill differential between two tasks.
As a BW Protoss turned SC2 Terran, I support this move. I think it'd be a more fitting race for him too. A time to correct a mistake you made long ago!
On April 22 2012 10:39 Norada wrote: It really depends, how do you know TBLS will actually like the game? If the game is boring for them or there's no drive to do well not quite sure they will be the best. It's like in the interview, it's a reset and whoever has the biggest drive, practices the most and gets information from current sc2 pros will do the best imo.
sc2 also has a low skill ceiling so I think whoever just practices the most and gets used to every different situation the game throws at them will do the best.
People like you need to be banned for trolling unless you can prove SC2 has a low skill ceiling.
It's more like:
People like you need to be banned for trolling unless you can prove SC2 hasn't a low skill ceiling.
Stop posting here and creating more BW vs sc2 rants.
When people stop posting utter bullshit i'll stop calling them out. It's rediculous to say SC2 has a low skill ceiling. If the skill celing was so low, then we would see a ton more gamers at the same level, while in reality there aren't that many TOP TOP players. Also i think you should stop putting words in my mouth. I never mentioned BW at all. I didn't start any SC2 vs BW argument thanks.
lol, do you realise that something is "low" when you compare it to something else? I mean there's no way you can say Sc2 skill ceiling isn't/is low, unless you are comparing it to something, since we are in a RTS community, and the highest skill lies on BW, you are mentioning BW anyway.
Unless you live in a magical world where things that you can't measure have an absolute value, and a scale that measures how big/small that value is.
IF we are comparing to BW. The we simply say BW has a HIGHER skill ceiling. Saying that doesn't make the SC2 skill ceiling LOW. How many games have a skill ceiling higher than SC2? IF it's just BW i'd call that a high skill ceiling.
I did mean a lower skill ceiling compared to bw, because what other game is worth mentioning or comparing?
Of course you can make the argument that sc2 has a higher skill ceiling than hello kitty island adventure, so there's no reason to think in generalization, we're comparing the two games and scenes.
Also im not bashing sc2 in anyway, i was GM on china and america for awhile. It's just you will likely not see someone who will dominate since the skill ceiling is low(more hard counters, ways to beat people with cheese), , and it's all about the practice and learning about different situations. You wont see people dominating and it's the exact reason why you see so many people be bi-polar in their play.(switching between winning and losing)
I hope the new expansion can make things better though, sc1 was pretty shit but when BW came it was a lot better. Hoping for the same with sc2.
On April 22 2012 17:54 Torenhire wrote: It sounds weird but if you've played both games, Terran has a pretty similar feel to BW Protoss in SC2...I'm not surprised to be honest.
Yes this is very true. Protoss in SC2 feels much more like Terran in SC1 oddly enough.
lol, do you realise that something is "low" when you compare it to something else? I mean there's no way you can say Sc2 skill ceiling isn't/is low, unless you are comparing it to something, since we are in a RTS community, and the highest skill lies on BW, you are mentioning BW anyway.
Unless you live in a magical world where things that you can't measure have an absolute value, and a scale that measures how big/small that value is.
Of course skill ceiling is something absolute. A game has a high skill ceiling if one has to invest a lot of time and effort in order to attain a high level. It is low if mastering it (that is, not playing perfectly but almost) does not require a lot of time and effort. Imagine DOTA were the only video game left in the world, would it all of a sudden stop being a low-skill ceiling game ? It wouldn't. And the reason why your reasoning does not work is that the skill ceiling of a game is per se considered from a human point of view. We could call a wall above 2 meters high, and below 1,5 m low and that would sound absurd as such, why does the change occur around 2m indeed ; but it is implied it's regarded from a human perspective. The same goes for games, all their features revolve around human ability.
Is this confirmed or only a rumor ? I'm not playing any ladder game now because I want to play the same race as Bisu. So is it confirmed that he will play Terran ?
On April 22 2012 17:54 Torenhire wrote: It sounds weird but if you've played both games, Terran has a pretty similar feel to BW Protoss in SC2...I'm not surprised to be honest.
Yes this is very true. Protoss in SC2 feels much more like Terran in SC1 oddly enough.
Comedy answer is that all races in SC2 feels like BW toss is because all you need to do is 1a2a3a
Real answer is probably because SC2 terran has a aggressive opening of Banshee which feels very similar to 2gate dts, in which you expand behind very powerful aggression (that can end the game if unprepared) or bio openings that revolve around controling the center of the map.
On April 22 2012 22:33 kamikami wrote: Is this confirmed or only a rumor ? I'm not playing any ladder game now because I want to play the same race as Bisu. So is it confirmed that he will play Terran ?
On April 22 2012 17:54 Torenhire wrote: It sounds weird but if you've played both games, Terran has a pretty similar feel to BW Protoss in SC2...I'm not surprised to be honest.
I actually noticed this. When I tried out brood war, i didn't feel comfortable at all with toss and found myself gravitating towards terran. I think it's because in bw terran uses an immobile, high tech army and toss relies heavily on their tier one, which is obviously the opposite of how it plays out in sc2.
On April 22 2012 17:54 Torenhire wrote: It sounds weird but if you've played both games, Terran has a pretty similar feel to BW Protoss in SC2...I'm not surprised to be honest.
I actually noticed this. When I tried out brood war, i didn't feel comfortable at all with toss and found myself gravitating towards terran. I think it's because in bw terran uses an immobile, high tech army and toss relies heavily on their tier one, which is obviously the opposite of how it plays out in sc2.
I have a feeling that Terran in BW = Zerg in SC2. Both races focus on inching forward with careful alignment of units or buildings. One moves with impeccable Spider Mine placements and Tanks, the other utilize the Creep Spread ability in order to gain mobility advantage. But at the end of the day, they are just turtling up until a final push. SC2 Terran's army is way too fast.
On April 22 2012 17:54 Torenhire wrote: It sounds weird but if you've played both games, Terran has a pretty similar feel to BW Protoss in SC2...I'm not surprised to be honest.
Yes this is very true. Protoss in SC2 feels much more like Terran in SC1 oddly enough.
I always thought terran n BW was similar to zerg in SC2.. Maybe it's just me
On April 22 2012 17:54 Torenhire wrote: It sounds weird but if you've played both games, Terran has a pretty similar feel to BW Protoss in SC2...I'm not surprised to be honest.
Yes this is very true. Protoss in SC2 feels much more like Terran in SC1 oddly enough.
I always thought terran n BW was similar to zerg in SC2.. Maybe it's just me
I've heard both but I've always thought that Terran plays more like Protoss than Zerg in SCII but either way, Terran doesn't play the whole unstoppable deathball style in SCII as well (unless you can get a crapton of thors)
On April 22 2012 17:54 Torenhire wrote: It sounds weird but if you've played both games, Terran has a pretty similar feel to BW Protoss in SC2...I'm not surprised to be honest.
Yes this is very true. Protoss in SC2 feels much more like Terran in SC1 oddly enough.
I always thought terran n BW was similar to zerg in SC2.. Maybe it's just me
I've heard both but I've always thought that Terran plays more like Protoss than Zerg in SCII but either way, Terran doesn't play the whole unstoppable deathball style in SCII as well (unless you can get a crapton of thors)
what about dem siege tanks? they are still pretty useful in the sequel.
On April 22 2012 17:54 Torenhire wrote: It sounds weird but if you've played both games, Terran has a pretty similar feel to BW Protoss in SC2...I'm not surprised to be honest.
Yes this is very true. Protoss in SC2 feels much more like Terran in SC1 oddly enough.
I always thought terran n BW was similar to zerg in SC2.. Maybe it's just me
I've heard both but I've always thought that Terran plays more like Protoss than Zerg in SCII but either way, Terran doesn't play the whole unstoppable deathball style in SCII as well (unless you can get a crapton of thors)
what about dem siege tanks? they are still pretty useful in the sequel.
Atleast in TvP, mass tank is only situationally better than bio.
On April 22 2012 17:54 Torenhire wrote: It sounds weird but if you've played both games, Terran has a pretty similar feel to BW Protoss in SC2...I'm not surprised to be honest.
Yes this is very true. Protoss in SC2 feels much more like Terran in SC1 oddly enough.
I always thought terran n BW was similar to zerg in SC2.. Maybe it's just me
I've heard both but I've always thought that Terran plays more like Protoss than Zerg in SCII but either way, Terran doesn't play the whole unstoppable deathball style in SCII as well (unless you can get a crapton of thors)
what about dem siege tanks? they are still pretty useful in the sequel.
Atleast in TvP, mass tank is only situationally better than bio.
Oh well, I am still using the mass marines into if I see Collusus being made, then its time for me to macro up some Siege Tanks and if he is going for a more HT/Mothership composition, I am teching up to Ghost for EMP. Got me pretty far on the ladder just with good scanning and macro.
On April 22 2012 17:54 Torenhire wrote: It sounds weird but if you've played both games, Terran has a pretty similar feel to BW Protoss in SC2...I'm not surprised to be honest.
Yes this is very true. Protoss in SC2 feels much more like Terran in SC1 oddly enough.
I always thought terran n BW was similar to zerg in SC2.. Maybe it's just me
I've heard both but I've always thought that Terran plays more like Protoss than Zerg in SCII but either way, Terran doesn't play the whole unstoppable deathball style in SCII as well (unless you can get a crapton of thors)
what about dem siege tanks? they are still pretty useful in the sequel.
Atleast in TvP, mass tank is only situationally better than bio.
And Protoss can just build 1 immortal and kill a hundred tanks (slightly exaggerated) :p
Sad to see that the switch seems to be very close but, well, maybe the BW pros will bring SC2 forward with new strategies and impressive mechanics. Still, i won't be disappointed if some new sponsor came up and gave BW just a year more.
On April 22 2012 17:54 Torenhire wrote: It sounds weird but if you've played both games, Terran has a pretty similar feel to BW Protoss in SC2...I'm not surprised to be honest.
Yes this is very true. Protoss in SC2 feels much more like Terran in SC1 oddly enough.
I always thought terran n BW was similar to zerg in SC2.. Maybe it's just me
I've heard both but I've always thought that Terran plays more like Protoss than Zerg in SCII but either way, Terran doesn't play the whole unstoppable deathball style in SCII as well (unless you can get a crapton of thors)
what about dem siege tanks? they are still pretty useful in the sequel.
Atleast in TvP, mass tank is only situationally better than bio.
And Protoss can just build 1 immortal and kill a hundred tanks (slightly exaggerated) :p
Sad to see that the switch seems to be very close but, well, maybe the BW pros will bring SC2 forward with new strategies and impressive mechanics. Still, i won't be disappointed if some new sponsor came up and gave BW just a year more.
On April 22 2012 17:54 Torenhire wrote: It sounds weird but if you've played both games, Terran has a pretty similar feel to BW Protoss in SC2...I'm not surprised to be honest.
Yes this is very true. Protoss in SC2 feels much more like Terran in SC1 oddly enough.
Only in TvP...
I'm sure mech styles will be viable in TvP in future patches/expansions. MKP crushed HuK with Mech (although there is a skill gap)at MLG Spring Arena #1 this weekend, showcasing a much more refined TvP mech build.
On April 22 2012 17:54 Torenhire wrote: It sounds weird but if you've played both games, Terran has a pretty similar feel to BW Protoss in SC2...I'm not surprised to be honest.
Yes this is very true. Protoss in SC2 feels much more like Terran in SC1 oddly enough.
Only in TvP...
I'm sure mech styles will be viable in TvP in future patches/expansions. MKP crushed HuK with Mech (although there is a skill gap)at MLG Spring Arena #1 this weekend, showcasing a much more refined TvP mech build.
Also in theory, Blizz planning to buff mech somehow in HotS
lol, do you realise that something is "low" when you compare it to something else? I mean there's no way you can say Sc2 skill ceiling isn't/is low, unless you are comparing it to something, since we are in a RTS community, and the highest skill lies on BW, you are mentioning BW anyway.
Unless you live in a magical world where things that you can't measure have an absolute value, and a scale that measures how big/small that value is.
Of course skill ceiling is something absolute. A game has a high skill ceiling if one has to invest a lot of time and effort in order to attain a high level. It is low if mastering it (that is, not playing perfectly but almost) does not require a lot of time and effort. Imagine DOTA were the only video game left in the world, would it all of a sudden stop being a low-skill ceiling game ? It wouldn't. And the reason why your reasoning does not work is that the skill ceiling of a game is per se considered from a human point of view. We could call a wall above 2 meters high, and below 1,5 m low and that would sound absurd as such, why does the change occur around 2m indeed ; but it is implied it's regarded from a human perspective. The same goes for games, all their features revolve around human ability.
But DoTA would stop being considered a low skill ceiling game, the only reason its considered low is when it is compared to BW (and SC2 players who have no clue about DoTA and think it is the same as LoL).
DoTA requires a lot of skill, I don't think you give it enough credit. Mechanical skill makes a much bigger difference in DoTA than in SC2, in DoTA (pub) you can carry a whole team with one good player (unlike LoL) even if the rest of his team sucks, if SC2 had the same skill ceiling you should be able to potentially win the game by micro-ing a single 75 mineral unit, such as the vulture, like you could in BW.
In SC2 you can't use a colossus drop to both kill all the workers and then pick it back up to defend against a back stab, or defend against infinite slow-lings while killing 100 workers with a hellion, there is no such unit in SC2. that's why the skill ceiling is considered "low". The game relies too much on gamesense, macro and timing, which would be considered skill, but it is not factored in what we call "skill ceiling" (I agree its a terribly defined word), which makes the game boring.
A lot of BW units were capable of being like DoTA like hero units and getting 40 kills with one unit, and still allowed unparalleled depth of strategy at the same time. That is what SC2 is missing.
In the true definition of the word, when we consider skill in the way we have defined it (the amount of leverage you can achieve through pure mechanics), DoTA has a higher skill ceiling than SC2. A good DoTA player can achieve much more mechanical game-winning plays over a bad player, than an SC2 player can.
lol, do you realise that something is "low" when you compare it to something else? I mean there's no way you can say Sc2 skill ceiling isn't/is low, unless you are comparing it to something, since we are in a RTS community, and the highest skill lies on BW, you are mentioning BW anyway.
Unless you live in a magical world where things that you can't measure have an absolute value, and a scale that measures how big/small that value is.
Of course skill ceiling is something absolute. A game has a high skill ceiling if one has to invest a lot of time and effort in order to attain a high level. It is low if mastering it (that is, not playing perfectly but almost) does not require a lot of time and effort. Imagine DOTA were the only video game left in the world, would it all of a sudden stop being a low-skill ceiling game ? It wouldn't. And the reason why your reasoning does not work is that the skill ceiling of a game is per se considered from a human point of view. We could call a wall above 2 meters high, and below 1,5 m low and that would sound absurd as such, why does the change occur around 2m indeed ; but it is implied it's regarded from a human perspective. The same goes for games, all their features revolve around human ability.
But DoTA would stop being considered a low skill ceiling game, the only reason its considered low is when it is compared to BW (and SC2 players who have no clue about DoTA and think it is the same as LoL).
DoTA requires a lot of skill, I don't think you give it enough credit. Mechanical skill makes a much bigger difference in DoTA than in SC2, in DoTA (pub) you can carry a whole team with one good player (unlike LoL) even if the rest of his team sucks, if SC2 had the same skill ceiling you should be able to potentially win the game by micro-ing a single 75 mineral unit, such as the vulture, like you could in BW.
In SC2 you can't use a colossus drop to both kill all the workers and then pick it back up to defend against a back stab, or defend against infinite slow-lings while killing 100 workers with a hellion, there is no such unit in SC2. that's why the skill ceiling is considered "low". The game relies too much on gamesense, macro and timing, which would be considered skill, but it is not factored in what we call "skill ceiling" (I agree its a terribly defined word), which makes the game boring.
A lot of BW units were capable of being like DoTA like hero units and getting 40 kills with one unit, and still allowed unparalleled depth of strategy at the same time. That is what SC2 is missing.
In the true definition of the word, when we consider skill in the way we have defined it (the amount of leverage you can achieve through pure mechanics), DoTA has a higher skill ceiling than SC2. A good DoTA player can achieve much more mechanical game-winning plays over a bad player, than an SC2 player can.
I'm sorry, but that logic is REALLY, really bad. Micro is not the only mechanical aspect, there is multitask and macro as well in both BW and sc2. Skill is NOT micro, micro is a PART of skill, as is gamesense, macro, multitask, timings, etc. Someone like Goody (terrible macro/micro/multitask) is more skilled than your average NA/EU semi-pro, even though his mechanics are not as good.
And even if you're just talking about mechanical skill... f someone like MVP plays against your average high-masters KR/most KR gms he ca just drop them and kill them with very little strategy. I've seen it done when he was streaming, he literally killed "pro" players with 2 medivacs pretty consistently. Bomber did it by just macroing and a-moving marines over KR masters players, and does it to kr gms with just marine micro+macro and very little strategy. Micro is not the only mechanical aspect in sc2/bw and that is why they are both mechanically harder than dota (unless you have shit micro and god-like macro/multitask); you don't have to worry about macro or multitask (depending on hero, but still not as much as either RTS) in dota.
With that being said, there definitely need to be more marines+medivacs (a-movable for bronzies, but really high levels of micro/multi-task at higher levels) and less roaches. It's a long-shot, but I'm really hoping that somehow we can get some coaches+players working on the game with Blizzard. It'd be good for the game and it'd definitely get me to love Blizzard more, but I doubt the community could have enough pull to make that happen.
A lot of BW units were capable of being like DoTA like hero units and getting 40 kills with one unit, and still allowed unparalleled depth of strategy at the same time. That is what SC2 is missing.
Fantasy pimp-est play come in to my mind when you put it that way ....
On April 22 2012 17:54 Torenhire wrote: It sounds weird but if you've played both games, Terran has a pretty similar feel to BW Protoss in SC2...I'm not surprised to be honest.
Yes this is very true. Protoss in SC2 feels much more like Terran in SC1 oddly enough.
Only in TvP...
I'm sure mech styles will be viable in TvP in future patches/expansions. MKP crushed HuK with Mech (although there is a skill gap)at MLG Spring Arena #1 this weekend, showcasing a much more refined TvP mech build.
Also in theory, Blizz planning to buff mech somehow in HotS
hellions morphing into firebats essentially makes mech viable to tank chargelots for tanks which was largely the issue for getting tanks in the current metagame.
On April 22 2012 17:54 Torenhire wrote: It sounds weird but if you've played both games, Terran has a pretty similar feel to BW Protoss in SC2...I'm not surprised to be honest.
Yes this is very true. Protoss in SC2 feels much more like Terran in SC1 oddly enough.
I always thought terran n BW was similar to zerg in SC2.. Maybe it's just me
I've heard both but I've always thought that Terran plays more like Protoss than Zerg in SCII but either way, Terran doesn't play the whole unstoppable deathball style in SCII as well (unless you can get a crapton of thors)
what about dem siege tanks? they are still pretty useful in the sequel.
Atleast in TvP, mass tank is only situationally better than bio.
Oh well, I am still using the mass marines into if I see Collusus being made, then its time for me to macro up some Siege Tanks and if he is going for a more HT/Mothership composition, I am teching up to Ghost for EMP. Got me pretty far on the ladder just with good scanning and macro.
Um I'm not sure why you think this is relevant. Here in the BW section we only consider progames valid to analyze when we are assessing how a race plays.
lol, do you realise that something is "low" when you compare it to something else? I mean there's no way you can say Sc2 skill ceiling isn't/is low, unless you are comparing it to something, since we are in a RTS community, and the highest skill lies on BW, you are mentioning BW anyway.
Unless you live in a magical world where things that you can't measure have an absolute value, and a scale that measures how big/small that value is.
Of course skill ceiling is something absolute. A game has a high skill ceiling if one has to invest a lot of time and effort in order to attain a high level. It is low if mastering it (that is, not playing perfectly but almost) does not require a lot of time and effort. Imagine DOTA were the only video game left in the world, would it all of a sudden stop being a low-skill ceiling game ? It wouldn't. And the reason why your reasoning does not work is that the skill ceiling of a game is per se considered from a human point of view. We could call a wall above 2 meters high, and below 1,5 m low and that would sound absurd as such, why does the change occur around 2m indeed ; but it is implied it's regarded from a human perspective. The same goes for games, all their features revolve around human ability.
But DoTA would stop being considered a low skill ceiling game, the only reason its considered low is when it is compared to BW (and SC2 players who have no clue about DoTA and think it is the same as LoL).
DoTA requires a lot of skill, I don't think you give it enough credit. Mechanical skill makes a much bigger difference in DoTA than in SC2, in DoTA (pub) you can carry a whole team with one good player (unlike LoL) even if the rest of his team sucks, if SC2 had the same skill ceiling you should be able to potentially win the game by micro-ing a single 75 mineral unit, such as the vulture, like you could in BW.
In SC2 you can't use a colossus drop to both kill all the workers and then pick it back up to defend against a back stab, or defend against infinite slow-lings while killing 100 workers with a hellion, there is no such unit in SC2. that's why the skill ceiling is considered "low". The game relies too much on gamesense, macro and timing, which would be considered skill, but it is not factored in what we call "skill ceiling" (I agree its a terribly defined word), which makes the game boring.
A lot of BW units were capable of being like DoTA like hero units and getting 40 kills with one unit, and still allowed unparalleled depth of strategy at the same time. That is what SC2 is missing.
In the true definition of the word, when we consider skill in the way we have defined it (the amount of leverage you can achieve through pure mechanics), DoTA has a higher skill ceiling than SC2. A good DoTA player can achieve much more mechanical game-winning plays over a bad player, than an SC2 player can.
I'm sorry, but that logic is REALLY, really bad. Micro is not the only mechanical aspect, there is multitask and macro as well in both BW and sc2. Skill is NOT micro, micro is a PART of skill, as is gamesense, macro, multitask, timings, etc. Someone like Goody (terrible macro/micro/multitask) is more skilled than your average NA/EU semi-pro, even though his mechanics are not as good.
And even if you're just talking about mechanical skill... f someone like MVP plays against your average high-masters KR/most KR gms he ca just drop them and kill them with very little strategy. I've seen it done when he was streaming, he literally killed "pro" players with 2 medivacs pretty consistently. Bomber did it by just macroing and a-moving marines over KR masters players, and does it to kr gms with just marine micro+macro and very little strategy. Micro is not the only mechanical aspect in sc2/bw and that is why they are both mechanically harder than dota (unless you have shit micro and god-like macro/multitask); you don't have to worry about macro or multitask (depending on hero, but still not as much as either RTS) in dota.
With that being said, there definitely need to be more marines+medivacs (a-movable for bronzies, but really high levels of micro/multi-task at higher levels) and less roaches. It's a long-shot, but I'm really hoping that somehow we can get some coaches+players working on the game with Blizzard. It'd be good for the game and it'd definitely get me to love Blizzard more, but I doubt the community could have enough pull to make that happen.
I'm sorry, but that logic is REALLY, really bad. Micro is not the only mechanical aspect, there is multitask and macro as well in both BW and sc2. Skill is NOT micro, micro is a PART of skill, as is gamesense, macro, multitask, timings, etc. Someone like Goody (terrible macro/micro/multitask) is more skilled than your average NA/EU semi-pro, even though his mechanics are not as good.
Its not my logic, I have huge problem with the term "skill ceiling" too, I was merely explaining that is how everyone uses the term. So yes, in the sense of the term, Goody would have less skill than a mechanical GM player. Who cares? Lets not argue semantics, and instead argue the actual point of the issue.
Also try farming 3 lanes and creeps at the same time with geomancer and then tell me DoTA has no multitask.
f someone like MVP plays against your average high-masters KR/most KR gms he ca just drop them and kill them with very little strategy
I've gotten a 20 kill tank against a gold player before by dropping and lifting a siege tank with a medivac. Doesn't mean shit, if I vsed someone my level that wouldn't be possible, that's the issue here. There is no such unit in SC2, and part of that problem is the fan-base. Imagine if a single hellion could kite speedlings on creep all day every day, or a colossus could wipe a whole base of probes in a single shot, there would be a public outcry.
With pure "skill" (micro accompanied by split-second tactics), we can win games against seemingly insurmountable odds. Time and time again, BW players will snatch games from the jaws of defeat with a flawless run of perfect micro-management executions. This is what creates the commonly described notion of "magic". This is possible in BW and it is possible in DoTA, it is almost impossible in SC2.
@on the topic of mechanics when it comes to macro After playing BW and SC2, macro (in the sense of keeping minerals low by mass clicking on buildings) is not that much harder in BW than it is in SC2. Yes losing MBS would be a big deal for SC2 only players, but once you get used to clicking on buildings, it is really not that hard to do and then it becomes the same, which is just remembering when to macro.
Just having MBS in SC2 wouldn't change much at the top level, a lot of top level players hotkey most of their production buildings anyway and select CC's/Scans using F-key->Mouse Click. Macro is so fast that the down-time created by not having MBS is almost nothing, Hiya can spam out vults faster without MBS than top SC2 players with.
SC2 macro sucks because of the way macro mechanics are designed, how expensive, powerful and high supply units are (Artosis's main complaint about BW Protoss being EZ mode ), and how worthless of an investment a 4th base is unless you have mules (an issue 6m1hyg is meant to address).
The reason BW players want MBS is probably because it is fun to do (believe me its actually fun when you get good at it), but also they can't figure out another reason why some players come out with huge armies and some don't. There is a tiny amount of difference in pure clicking macro between the top players. The reason Flash/Best gets so many units is they have perfected the timings of when to put down production buildings versus actual production, when to cut workers and expansion timings, which also makes a bigger difference in BW than it does in SC2. Although it is really cool watching FPVods of players clicking buildings and flicking screens at the speed of light, we are at a point where pure mechanical macro differences are negligible, it is arguable that the skill ceiling in that regard has already been reached.
There is the Bisu exception, but like I said, he would be just like everyone else if MBS was implemented in SC2 in its current state. His talent comes from being able to ultilize his godlike multitask to execute guerilla tactics flawlessly, something which can't be done in SC2 to that much effect, except maybe multi-prong marine drops, which gets old really fast. As addressed above, we need units that, in Day[9]'s words, you can get 9x the effect out of rather than 1.5x. Until then Bisu and Jaedong's talents will be completely wasted if they switch.
In this sense, the mechanics of macro are really negligible when it comes to the top level, macro differences are really defined by higher-level stuff that most people don't really see, and therefore it is not something we can consider when it comes to skill ceiling.
On April 21 2012 10:25 GGQ wrote: Noooo Bisu you must be Protoss! My mind can't even figure out what I would do if Bisu played a different race. It'd just be wrong.
You know that Bisu was originally Terran in BW right?
(so was Best)
Yeahhh Bisu was a terran who switched because he didnt have enough APM to play terran well MAYBE he'll switch in SC2... although its debatable because he was such an icon of PvZ in BW...
On April 21 2012 10:25 GGQ wrote: Noooo Bisu you must be Protoss! My mind can't even figure out what I would do if Bisu played a different race. It'd just be wrong.
You know that Bisu was originally Terran in BW right?
(so was Best)
So was Stork. But they all found their true (and far superior) calling.
Once you go Aiur, you can't go back.
Switching to Protoss is one thing. But leaving is just pure blasphemy. Protoss is not just a race. It's a calling, a willingness to overcome all, despite the incredible odds against you.
On April 21 2012 10:25 GGQ wrote: Noooo Bisu you must be Protoss! My mind can't even figure out what I would do if Bisu played a different race. It'd just be wrong.
You know that Bisu was originally Terran in BW right?
(so was Best)
So was Stork. But they all found their true (and far superior) calling.
Once you go Aiur, you can't go back.
Switching to Protoss is one thing. But leaving is just pure blasphemy. Protoss is not just a race. It's a calling, a willingness to overcome all, despite the incredible odds against you.
I was laddering in Sc2 as Protoss yesterday and this Zerg player with a Tassadar portrait was ranting at me about what an idiot I was for playing the weakest race. So I told him I played Protoss in BW and he continued to rant at me. Needless to say I called him a coward and ended up losing. Then the next game I beat a higher ranked Zerg with 2 base Carrier >:D.
On April 21 2012 10:25 GGQ wrote: Noooo Bisu you must be Protoss! My mind can't even figure out what I would do if Bisu played a different race. It'd just be wrong.
You know that Bisu was originally Terran in BW right?
(so was Best)
So was Stork. But they all found their true (and far superior) calling.
Once you go Aiur, you can't go back.
Switching to Protoss is one thing. But leaving is just pure blasphemy. Protoss is not just a race. It's a calling, a willingness to overcome all, despite the incredible odds against you.
You have a point, but Terran in SC2 is by far the most multitasking intensive race. I can clearly visualize one of the TBLS holding the GSL trophy in a season or two after they switch.
LOL. Im now a Hoejja fanboy Hope IdrA read that too, also wish he read what the other 72 pros who kept there BW race too >.< IdrA as terran would give me nerd chills ;;
On April 23 2012 02:05 Caphe wrote: Lets hope that BW pros will do well with SC2.
Problem is that we might not see current pros and BW-pros clashing at each other in the near future in SC2, because they will have separate league, it seems.
Wait! so is it implied in the article that Season 2 is SC2 only, or what? Or is that just a "what if" then "what race" question?
On April 23 2012 15:04 EngrishTeacher wrote: Sigh, only thing to do now is to watch TBLS dominate current top SC2 players.
Then we can at least hold onto the fact that BW is (was) a superior game.
being a better game and having a higher skill ceiling and having players better fit playing an RTS like Starcraft 1 or 2 are different things... unless your definition of a better game consists solely or dominantly by whether or not the top players in said game are highly competent people or not
ya it's MarineKing. afaik FBH was in the military.. and the dude was playing at random KST hours on Bomber, Heart streams a few months back so it definitely can't be him.
actuall marineking played braq on his stream about one month ago. He said in chat it was MakaPrime. i don't remember which vod it was to link it
Sorry for not reading the thread in whole and maybe being a little off topic. But since some people said that Terran would fit Bisu's Multitasking capability so well. I really think that Zerg might have even more room for sick Multitasking than the other races. I'd love to see some high lvl BW pros using all control groups and constantly harrassing with small groups of Zerglings and always having some overlords around to drop undefended mineral lines etc. while keeping up with their Macro. It always makes me a little bit sad to not see Overlord Drop capability or also Burrow harrass used very often. But I guess when these high lvl pros switch, we'll see some sick Multitasking and harrassment from all the races. Also, I didn't want to say that Bisu should switch to Zerg. I don't want anyone to get offended since I am an absolute BW-newbie.
On April 23 2012 19:08 Ncutable wrote: Sorry for not reading the thread in whole and maybe being a little off topic. But since some people said that Terran would fit Bisu's Multitasking capability so well. I really think that Zerg might have even more room for sick Multitasking than the other races. I'd love to see some high lvl BW pros using all control groups and constantly harrassing with small groups of Zerglings and always having some overlords around to drop undefended mineral lines etc. while keeping up with their Macro. It always makes me a little bit sad to not see Overlord Drop capability or also Burrow harrass used very often. But I guess when these high lvl pros switch, we'll see some sick Multitasking and harrassment from all the races. Also, I didn't want to say that Bisu should switch to Zerg. I don't want anyone to get offended since I am an absolute BW-newbie.
That kind of extremely fickle multitasking suits Jaedong better than Bisu. Jaedong can't multitask as well as Bisu, but his execution is sublime.
Watch how Jaedong uses one ling to deny spores until his mutas arive.
Bisu's multitasking is a lot more haphazard but at the same time, beautiful to watch. Commentators say he usually keeps tabs of 5 different screens at a time, "does he have 3 hands?!!" comes up quite a lot. He has a unique style of PvZ that others fruitlessly try to copy because they simply don't have the skill to keep corsairs roaming around the map non-stop with perfect macro and harass. He has a habit of losing his shuttle at critical moments a lot giving him the nickname "Kims Shuttle" though, its probably because he often tries to out-do himself by maintaining perfect macro with multitask.
On April 23 2012 19:08 Ncutable wrote: Sorry for not reading the thread in whole and maybe being a little off topic. But since some people said that Terran would fit Bisu's Multitasking capability so well. I really think that Zerg might have even more room for sick Multitasking than the other races. I'd love to see some high lvl BW pros using all control groups and constantly harrassing with small groups of Zerglings and always having some overlords around to drop undefended mineral lines etc. while keeping up with their Macro. It always makes me a little bit sad to not see Overlord Drop capability or also Burrow harrass used very often. But I guess when these high lvl pros switch, we'll see some sick Multitasking and harrassment from all the races. Also, I didn't want to say that Bisu should switch to Zerg. I don't want anyone to get offended since I am an absolute BW-newbie.
That kind of extremely fickle multitasking suits Jaedong better than Bisu. Jaedong can't multitask as well as Bisu, but his execution is sublime.
Watch how Jaedong uses one ling to deny spores until his mutas arive.
Bisu's multitasking is a lot more haphazard but at the same time, beautiful to watch. Commentators say he usually keeps tabs of 5 different screens at a time, "does he have 3 hands?!!" comes up quite a lot. He has a unique style of PvZ that others fruitlessly try to copy because they simply don't have the skill to keep corsairs roaming around the map non-stop with perfect macro and harass. He has a habit of losing his shuttle at critical moments a lot giving him the nickname "Kims Shuttle" though, its probably because he often tries to out-do himself by maintaining perfect macro with multitask.
, so I have to watch that later. But thanks for throwing some light on these things for a poor BW-latecomer. Here's hoping then that if Jaedong switches he will show us what Zerg is really able to do...
sick ! never saw this vid ! Would love to see a 5 prong attack on sc2
The highlights of this match was mostly
Sair/Reaver play, Speedshuttles, Sair/DT/HT. and a speedlot timing on the 4th at 11 o clock iirc.
edit: and insane scourge dodging too
Sadly half the units listed do not exist in SC2 so not sure what Bisu has to work with.
I think HoTS is around the corner though. I really hope bisu doesn't play protoss in sc2, protoss in sc2 is just boring. Hope he plays terran or zerg. That would be interesting.
sick ! never saw this vid ! Would love to see a 5 prong attack on sc2
The highlights of this match was mostly
Sair/Reaver play, Speedshuttles, Sair/DT/HT. and a speedlot timing on the 4th at 11 o clock iirc.
edit: and insane scourge dodging too
Sadly half the units listed do not exist in SC2 so not sure what Bisu has to work with.
I think HoTS is around the corner though. I really hope bisu doesn't play protoss in sc2, protoss in sc2 is just boring. Hope he plays terran or zerg. That would be interesting.
I remember watching that live. Honestly, Bisu needs to stay protoss because it's boring right now. Once we see him unlock its potential everything will be better. And I guarantee by the next two expansions sc2 will be micro crazy.
I think all bw pro's should switch to Terran than every match up will be TvT and I will be happy watching players executing mass nuke strategy everywhere on the map ^_^.
sick ! never saw this vid ! Would love to see a 5 prong attack on sc2
The highlights of this match was mostly
Sair/Reaver play, Speedshuttles, Sair/DT/HT. and a speedlot timing on the 4th at 11 o clock iirc.
edit: and insane scourge dodging too
Sadly half the units listed do not exist in SC2 so not sure what Bisu has to work with.
Speed warp prism would has a lot of possibilities though. I know there have been some PvP builds that revolve around it and some PvZ attempts that looked pretty good, but still seems like that someone with insane multi-tasking could break the unit.
nooooooooooo Bisuuuuuuuuuuu!!! Cmon dude, you are on of the protoss pillars, without your entrance in BW scene many years ago, the zerg could still crush the protoss army everywhere. We need your help in SC2!!!
This thread makes me sad. Its like my grandfather died and my cousins are talking about exchanging his priceless family heirlooms for crack and Jersey Shore DVDs.
On April 24 2012 00:45 Belha wrote: Bisu is the protoss hero, if he plays T will be the most painfull treachery.
Maybe, but i hope he will play the race he will be the most comfortable with, not the one everyone wants to see him play. If SC2 is blank page im all up for this, Boxer was playing protoss pre1.08
i can only imagine the level of ownage that Bisu will pull out if he goes to terran, and flash, if he goes toss...well everyone in the GSL may as well GG out lol. will be interesting to see how they play if they do switch though :D
sick ! never saw this vid ! Would love to see a 5 prong attack on sc2
The highlights of this match was mostly
Sair/Reaver play, Speedshuttles, Sair/DT/HT. and a speedlot timing on the 4th at 11 o clock iirc.
edit: and insane scourge dodging too
Sadly half the units listed do not exist in SC2 so not sure what Bisu has to work with.
I think HoTS is around the corner though. I really hope bisu doesn't play protoss in sc2, protoss in sc2 is just boring. Hope he plays terran or zerg. That would be interesting.
On April 21 2012 10:25 GGQ wrote: Noooo Bisu you must be Protoss! My mind can't even figure out what I would do if Bisu played a different race. It'd just be wrong.
You know that Bisu was originally Terran in BW right?
(so was Best)
So was Stork. But they all found their true (and far superior) calling.
On April 23 2012 22:50 Scribbler! wrote: Although I respect the current SC2 pro gamers — we're really going to see the game evolve once the top tier koreans transition...
I really can't wait to see some of the strats they'll bring.
They are not going to bring any new builds. They will just execute the same builds cleaner and faster.
On April 23 2012 22:50 Scribbler! wrote: Although I respect the current SC2 pro gamers — we're really going to see the game evolve once the top tier koreans transition...
I really can't wait to see some of the strats they'll bring.
They are not going to bring any new builds. They will just execute the same builds cleaner and faster.
Really? ;o Players capable of inventing new ways to play a 15 years old game won't come up with new builds for SC2? That sounds rather improbable.
On April 23 2012 19:08 Ncutable wrote: Sorry for not reading the thread in whole and maybe being a little off topic. But since some people said that Terran would fit Bisu's Multitasking capability so well. I really think that Zerg might have even more room for sick Multitasking than the other races. I'd love to see some high lvl BW pros using all control groups and constantly harrassing with small groups of Zerglings and always having some overlords around to drop undefended mineral lines etc. while keeping up with their Macro. It always makes me a little bit sad to not see Overlord Drop capability or also Burrow harrass used very often. But I guess when these high lvl pros switch, we'll see some sick Multitasking and harrassment from all the races. Also, I didn't want to say that Bisu should switch to Zerg. I don't want anyone to get offended since I am an absolute BW-newbie.
That kind of extremely fickle multitasking suits Jaedong better than Bisu. Jaedong can't multitask as well as Bisu, but his execution is sublime.
Watch how Jaedong uses one ling to deny spores until his mutas arive.
Bisu's multitasking is a lot more haphazard but at the same time, beautiful to watch. Commentators say he usually keeps tabs of 5 different screens at a time, "does he have 3 hands?!!" comes up quite a lot. He has a unique style of PvZ that others fruitlessly try to copy because they simply don't have the skill to keep corsairs roaming around the map non-stop with perfect macro and harass. He has a habit of losing his shuttle at critical moments a lot giving him the nickname "Kims Shuttle" though, its probably because he often tries to out-do himself by maintaining perfect macro with multitask.
, so I have to watch that later. But thanks for throwing some light on these things for a poor BW-latecomer. Here's hoping then that if Jaedong switches he will show us what Zerg is really able to do...
While these players will be ale to control excellently, i feel people ignore a few things. SC2 is a lot faster than BW. They will need to be faster to do all this harass etc. Secondly, have you looked at how fast MVPDongRaeGu is?. Don't tell me that anyone will be miles ahead of him. He sits constantly over 350 epm and went way higher in the recent MLG. 500 at times. I'm as excited as the next guy for them switching, but i'm cautious as to how fast they can actually be.
I think the biggest skill is actually doing 3 or more things at once. Obviously they could have a higher capability of that but wow would that be impressive.
On April 23 2012 19:08 Ncutable wrote: Sorry for not reading the thread in whole and maybe being a little off topic. But since some people said that Terran would fit Bisu's Multitasking capability so well. I really think that Zerg might have even more room for sick Multitasking than the other races. I'd love to see some high lvl BW pros using all control groups and constantly harrassing with small groups of Zerglings and always having some overlords around to drop undefended mineral lines etc. while keeping up with their Macro. It always makes me a little bit sad to not see Overlord Drop capability or also Burrow harrass used very often. But I guess when these high lvl pros switch, we'll see some sick Multitasking and harrassment from all the races. Also, I didn't want to say that Bisu should switch to Zerg. I don't want anyone to get offended since I am an absolute BW-newbie.
That kind of extremely fickle multitasking suits Jaedong better than Bisu. Jaedong can't multitask as well as Bisu, but his execution is sublime.
Watch how Jaedong uses one ling to deny spores until his mutas arive.
Bisu's multitasking is a lot more haphazard but at the same time, beautiful to watch. Commentators say he usually keeps tabs of 5 different screens at a time, "does he have 3 hands?!!" comes up quite a lot. He has a unique style of PvZ that others fruitlessly try to copy because they simply don't have the skill to keep corsairs roaming around the map non-stop with perfect macro and harass. He has a habit of losing his shuttle at critical moments a lot giving him the nickname "Kims Shuttle" though, its probably because he often tries to out-do himself by maintaining perfect macro with multitask.
, so I have to watch that later. But thanks for throwing some light on these things for a poor BW-latecomer. Here's hoping then that if Jaedong switches he will show us what Zerg is really able to do...
While these players will be ale to control excellently, i feel people ignore a few things. SC2 is a lot faster than BW. They will need to be faster to do all this harass etc. Secondly, have you looked at how fast MVPDongRaeGu is?. Don't tell me that anyone will be miles ahead of him. He sits constantly over 350 epm and went way higher in the recent MLG. 500 at times. I'm as excited as the next guy for them switching, but i'm cautious as to how fast they can actually be.
I think the biggest skill is actually doing 3 or more things at once. Obviously they could have a higher capability of that but wow would that be impressive.
Are people really now arguing SC2 as the harder game mechanically than BW.... Honestly?
Also lol at 500eapm uhhh you might want to recheck the definition of eapm
On April 24 2012 01:37 Pelopidas wrote: This thread makes me sad. Its like my grandfather died and my cousins are talking about exchanging his priceless family heirlooms for crack and Jersey Shore DVDs.
I hope that bisu sticks to protoss Liquid'Hero share a similar playstyle and its very entertaining. Imagine what Bisu will be able to do with his multitasking.
On April 24 2012 03:15 Rainfall7711 wrote: I think the biggest skill is actually doing 3 or more things at once. Obviously they could have a higher capability of that but wow would that be impressive.
Lol dude Bisu has been doing 5 things at once for eternity, it's been mentioned again and again by commentators. There's a vod where he mounted 4 simultanous attacks (2 zealot harass attacks,a corsair attack, and main army attack) at 4 different places while still building probes, put them to mining, build army....
On April 23 2012 19:08 Ncutable wrote: Sorry for not reading the thread in whole and maybe being a little off topic. But since some people said that Terran would fit Bisu's Multitasking capability so well. I really think that Zerg might have even more room for sick Multitasking than the other races. I'd love to see some high lvl BW pros using all control groups and constantly harrassing with small groups of Zerglings and always having some overlords around to drop undefended mineral lines etc. while keeping up with their Macro. It always makes me a little bit sad to not see Overlord Drop capability or also Burrow harrass used very often. But I guess when these high lvl pros switch, we'll see some sick Multitasking and harrassment from all the races. Also, I didn't want to say that Bisu should switch to Zerg. I don't want anyone to get offended since I am an absolute BW-newbie.
That kind of extremely fickle multitasking suits Jaedong better than Bisu. Jaedong can't multitask as well as Bisu, but his execution is sublime.
Watch how Jaedong uses one ling to deny spores until his mutas arive.
Bisu's multitasking is a lot more haphazard but at the same time, beautiful to watch. Commentators say he usually keeps tabs of 5 different screens at a time, "does he have 3 hands?!!" comes up quite a lot. He has a unique style of PvZ that others fruitlessly try to copy because they simply don't have the skill to keep corsairs roaming around the map non-stop with perfect macro and harass. He has a habit of losing his shuttle at critical moments a lot giving him the nickname "Kims Shuttle" though, its probably because he often tries to out-do himself by maintaining perfect macro with multitask.
, so I have to watch that later. But thanks for throwing some light on these things for a poor BW-latecomer. Here's hoping then that if Jaedong switches he will show us what Zerg is really able to do...
While these players will be ale to control excellently, i feel people ignore a few things. SC2 is a lot faster than BW. They will need to be faster to do all this harass etc. Secondly, have you looked at how fast MVPDongRaeGu is?. Don't tell me that anyone will be miles ahead of him. He sits constantly over 350 epm and went way higher in the recent MLG. 500 at times. I'm as excited as the next guy for them switching, but i'm cautious as to how fast they can actually be.
I think the biggest skill is actually doing 3 or more things at once. Obviously they could have a higher capability of that but wow would that be impressive.
350eapm? or 350apm?
Flash and Jaedong both consistently average 400-500 APM. Bisu is a bit slower at 330-390 but has very low spam and probably has the cleanest actions of all the players. Protoss is the least mechanically intensive race so Bisu having such high EAPM is a big deal. BW Protoss doesn't have APM sinks like creep spread and larva inject either, every single action he does is a unit action or macro/construction. Actions are also much harder in BW, you hold down R and spam 20 roaches, that's 20 actions, to make 20 dragoons is a lot more difficult.
He is also the only one I think that sends already working workers to work on different patches for more efficiency during mid-game.
On April 23 2012 19:08 Ncutable wrote: Sorry for not reading the thread in whole and maybe being a little off topic. But since some people said that Terran would fit Bisu's Multitasking capability so well. I really think that Zerg might have even more room for sick Multitasking than the other races. I'd love to see some high lvl BW pros using all control groups and constantly harrassing with small groups of Zerglings and always having some overlords around to drop undefended mineral lines etc. while keeping up with their Macro. It always makes me a little bit sad to not see Overlord Drop capability or also Burrow harrass used very often. But I guess when these high lvl pros switch, we'll see some sick Multitasking and harrassment from all the races. Also, I didn't want to say that Bisu should switch to Zerg. I don't want anyone to get offended since I am an absolute BW-newbie.
That kind of extremely fickle multitasking suits Jaedong better than Bisu. Jaedong can't multitask as well as Bisu, but his execution is sublime.
Watch how Jaedong uses one ling to deny spores until his mutas arive.
Bisu's multitasking is a lot more haphazard but at the same time, beautiful to watch. Commentators say he usually keeps tabs of 5 different screens at a time, "does he have 3 hands?!!" comes up quite a lot. He has a unique style of PvZ that others fruitlessly try to copy because they simply don't have the skill to keep corsairs roaming around the map non-stop with perfect macro and harass. He has a habit of losing his shuttle at critical moments a lot giving him the nickname "Kims Shuttle" though, its probably because he often tries to out-do himself by maintaining perfect macro with multitask.
, so I have to watch that later. But thanks for throwing some light on these things for a poor BW-latecomer. Here's hoping then that if Jaedong switches he will show us what Zerg is really able to do...
While these players will be ale to control excellently, i feel people ignore a few things. SC2 is a lot faster than BW. They will need to be faster to do all this harass etc. Secondly, have you looked at how fast MVPDongRaeGu is?. Don't tell me that anyone will be miles ahead of him. He sits constantly over 350 epm and went way higher in the recent MLG. 500 at times. I'm as excited as the next guy for them switching, but i'm cautious as to how fast they can actually be.
I think the biggest skill is actually doing 3 or more things at once. Obviously they could have a higher capability of that but wow would that be impressive.
high apm =/= doing shit tone of stuff really fcking fast. do you know where majority of these high apm comes from? 1 click, 2 click, 3 click. just moving your army around the map.
with easier macro in sc2, no pros will have a problem doing multiple things at once.
On April 23 2012 19:08 Ncutable wrote: Sorry for not reading the thread in whole and maybe being a little off topic. But since some people said that Terran would fit Bisu's Multitasking capability so well. I really think that Zerg might have even more room for sick Multitasking than the other races. I'd love to see some high lvl BW pros using all control groups and constantly harrassing with small groups of Zerglings and always having some overlords around to drop undefended mineral lines etc. while keeping up with their Macro. It always makes me a little bit sad to not see Overlord Drop capability or also Burrow harrass used very often. But I guess when these high lvl pros switch, we'll see some sick Multitasking and harrassment from all the races. Also, I didn't want to say that Bisu should switch to Zerg. I don't want anyone to get offended since I am an absolute BW-newbie.
That kind of extremely fickle multitasking suits Jaedong better than Bisu. Jaedong can't multitask as well as Bisu, but his execution is sublime.
Watch how Jaedong uses one ling to deny spores until his mutas arive.
Bisu's multitasking is a lot more haphazard but at the same time, beautiful to watch. Commentators say he usually keeps tabs of 5 different screens at a time, "does he have 3 hands?!!" comes up quite a lot. He has a unique style of PvZ that others fruitlessly try to copy because they simply don't have the skill to keep corsairs roaming around the map non-stop with perfect macro and harass. He has a habit of losing his shuttle at critical moments a lot giving him the nickname "Kims Shuttle" though, its probably because he often tries to out-do himself by maintaining perfect macro with multitask.
, so I have to watch that later. But thanks for throwing some light on these things for a poor BW-latecomer. Here's hoping then that if Jaedong switches he will show us what Zerg is really able to do...
While these players will be ale to control excellently, i feel people ignore a few things. SC2 is a lot faster than BW. They will need to be faster to do all this harass etc. Secondly, have you looked at how fast MVPDongRaeGu is?. Don't tell me that anyone will be miles ahead of him. He sits constantly over 350 epm and went way higher in the recent MLG. 500 at times. I'm as excited as the next guy for them switching, but i'm cautious as to how fast they can actually be.
I think the biggest skill is actually doing 3 or more things at once. Obviously they could have a higher capability of that but wow would that be impressive.
350eapm? or 350apm?
Flash and Jaedong both consistently average 400-500 APM. Bisu is a bit slower at 330-390 but has very low spam and probably has the cleanest actions of all the players. Protoss is the least mechanically intensive race so Bisu having such high EAPM is a big deal. BW Protoss doesn't have APM sinks like creep spread and larva inject either, every single action he does is a unit action or macro/construction. Actions are also much harder in BW, you hold down R and spam 20 roaches, that's 20 actions, to make 20 dragoons is a lot more difficult.
He is also the only one I think that sends already working workers to work on different patches for more efficiency during mid-game.
sick ! never saw this vid ! Would love to see a 5 prong attack on sc2
i think multitask is when you do various tasks at the same time... in the vid you can see the time jump 1-minute or more when the screen switch lol. this is a joke?
this game is real pvz multitask material: Jaedong vs Kal
On April 23 2012 23:04 SecondSandwich wrote: Bisu as terran kind of feels right to me for some reason...
The same way it felt right when Flash lost twice in the finals?
the same way it felt right when Bisu get Crushed by noobs in the osl semis? where is his pvz multitask? XD the same way it felt right when Flash won his 3 gold mice in OSL? the most important event in SC scene. the same way it felt right when GODyoungHo has been winning all the records in Proleague all this years? the same way it felt right when Flash raped Bisu in a protoss favored map in a proleague final some time before?
in this last final flash lost in a suspicious way, i don't know... "SK"telecom? "SK"Proleague? SK two consecutive lost history? final appearance? coincidence? just luck? everyone knows that Flash can crush easily bisu and fantasy in any BoX match and.... whatever.
On April 24 2012 01:37 Pelopidas wrote: This thread makes me sad. Its like my grandfather died and my cousins are talking about exchanging his priceless family heirlooms for crack and Jersey Shore DVDs.
On April 21 2012 14:40 YMCApylons wrote: In SC2, Protoss play needs a big kick in the pants away from 2-base timing pushes...Bisu/Stork, please show the way.
Don't switch to terran, Bisu! Your insane APM will serve you well, but I think you'll love warp gates more.
Bisu and Stork will make Huk, MC, and Hero look like chobos with warp prisms.
You mean Stork with his 200ish apm..?
Bisu I can understand, but Stork was never known for his harassment
if you can play sair/reaver your multitask is good for just about anything
On April 23 2012 19:08 Ncutable wrote: Sorry for not reading the thread in whole and maybe being a little off topic. But since some people said that Terran would fit Bisu's Multitasking capability so well. I really think that Zerg might have even more room for sick Multitasking than the other races. I'd love to see some high lvl BW pros using all control groups and constantly harrassing with small groups of Zerglings and always having some overlords around to drop undefended mineral lines etc. while keeping up with their Macro. It always makes me a little bit sad to not see Overlord Drop capability or also Burrow harrass used very often. But I guess when these high lvl pros switch, we'll see some sick Multitasking and harrassment from all the races. Also, I didn't want to say that Bisu should switch to Zerg. I don't want anyone to get offended since I am an absolute BW-newbie.
That kind of extremely fickle multitasking suits Jaedong better than Bisu. Jaedong can't multitask as well as Bisu, but his execution is sublime.
Watch how Jaedong uses one ling to deny spores until his mutas arive.
Bisu's multitasking is a lot more haphazard but at the same time, beautiful to watch. Commentators say he usually keeps tabs of 5 different screens at a time, "does he have 3 hands?!!" comes up quite a lot. He has a unique style of PvZ that others fruitlessly try to copy because they simply don't have the skill to keep corsairs roaming around the map non-stop with perfect macro and harass. He has a habit of losing his shuttle at critical moments a lot giving him the nickname "Kims Shuttle" though, its probably because he often tries to out-do himself by maintaining perfect macro with multitask.
, so I have to watch that later. But thanks for throwing some light on these things for a poor BW-latecomer. Here's hoping then that if Jaedong switches he will show us what Zerg is really able to do...
While these players will be ale to control excellently, i feel people ignore a few things. SC2 is a lot faster than BW. They will need to be faster to do all this harass etc. Secondly, have you looked at how fast MVPDongRaeGu is?. Don't tell me that anyone will be miles ahead of him. He sits constantly over 350 epm and went way higher in the recent MLG. 500 at times. I'm as excited as the next guy for them switching, but i'm cautious as to how fast they can actually be.
I think the biggest skill is actually doing 3 or more things at once. Obviously they could have a higher capability of that but wow would that be impressive.
Have you ever even played BW?
I also find it very hard to believe anyone plays SC2 at more than 300 APM consistently, much less 300 eAPM. There were like...two progamers in BW who consistently hit over 500 APM.
BW requires more multitasking and more actions. When they say SC2 is faster, they refer to the game's pace. Everything is compacted and happens faster. You spend less time at the beginning of the game staring at workers mining in SC2. Average game lengths are also shorter.
I'm intrigued by the idea that SC2 may be more difficult to multi-task due to it's faster pace. I understand that there are differences in game design that may also cancel that out, so to speak, but I have some hope that players like Bisu can push the metagame in amazing new directions.
sick ! never saw this vid ! Would love to see a 5 prong attack on sc2
The highlights of this match was mostly
Sair/Reaver play, Speedshuttles, Sair/DT/HT. and a speedlot timing on the 4th at 11 o clock iirc.
edit: and insane scourge dodging too
Sadly half the units listed do not exist in SC2 so not sure what Bisu has to work with.
I think HoTS is around the corner though. I really hope bisu doesn't play protoss in sc2, protoss in sc2 is just boring. Hope he plays terran or zerg. That would be interesting.
boo this man! boooooooooooooooo!
You boo me?! I BOO YOU! Bisu for the swarm! GET INFESTED BY KERRIGAN!
sick ! never saw this vid ! Would love to see a 5 prong attack on sc2
The highlights of this match was mostly
Sair/Reaver play, Speedshuttles, Sair/DT/HT. and a speedlot timing on the 4th at 11 o clock iirc.
edit: and insane scourge dodging too
Sadly half the units listed do not exist in SC2 so not sure what Bisu has to work with.
I think HoTS is around the corner though. I really hope bisu doesn't play protoss in sc2, protoss in sc2 is just boring. Hope he plays terran or zerg. That would be interesting.
boo this man! boooooooooooooooo!
You boo me?! I BOO YOU! Bisu for the swarm! GET INFESTED BY KERRIGAN!
Can't you see. Bisu is protoss and protoss is Bisu. Jaedong iz zerg and zerg is Jaedong. Flash is terran and terran is Flash. They are inseparable.
sick ! never saw this vid ! Would love to see a 5 prong attack on sc2
The highlights of this match was mostly
Sair/Reaver play, Speedshuttles, Sair/DT/HT. and a speedlot timing on the 4th at 11 o clock iirc.
edit: and insane scourge dodging too
Sadly half the units listed do not exist in SC2 so not sure what Bisu has to work with.
I think HoTS is around the corner though. I really hope bisu doesn't play protoss in sc2, protoss in sc2 is just boring. Hope he plays terran or zerg. That would be interesting.
boo this man! boooooooooooooooo!
You boo me?! I BOO YOU! Bisu for the swarm! GET INFESTED BY KERRIGAN!
Can't you see. Bisu is protoss and protoss is Bisu. Jaedong iz zerg and zerg is Jaedong. Flash is terran and terran is Flash. They are inseparable.
sick ! never saw this vid ! Would love to see a 5 prong attack on sc2
The highlights of this match was mostly
Sair/Reaver play, Speedshuttles, Sair/DT/HT. and a speedlot timing on the 4th at 11 o clock iirc.
edit: and insane scourge dodging too
Sadly half the units listed do not exist in SC2 so not sure what Bisu has to work with.
I think HoTS is around the corner though. I really hope bisu doesn't play protoss in sc2, protoss in sc2 is just boring. Hope he plays terran or zerg. That would be interesting.
boo this man! boooooooooooooooo!
You boo me?! I BOO YOU! Bisu for the swarm! GET INFESTED BY KERRIGAN!
Can't you see. Bisu is protoss and protoss is Bisu. Jaedong iz zerg and zerg is Jaedong. Flash is terran and terran is Flash. They are inseparable.
Yes Bisu has won more OSLs than any other protoss!!! He's prolly gonna win the last OSL too. EDIT: /sarcasm (If you didn't get it the joke's on you)
sick ! never saw this vid ! Would love to see a 5 prong attack on sc2
The highlights of this match was mostly
Sair/Reaver play, Speedshuttles, Sair/DT/HT. and a speedlot timing on the 4th at 11 o clock iirc.
edit: and insane scourge dodging too
Sadly half the units listed do not exist in SC2 so not sure what Bisu has to work with.
I think HoTS is around the corner though. I really hope bisu doesn't play protoss in sc2, protoss in sc2 is just boring. Hope he plays terran or zerg. That would be interesting.
boo this man! boooooooooooooooo!
You boo me?! I BOO YOU! Bisu for the swarm! GET INFESTED BY KERRIGAN!
Can't you see. Bisu is protoss and protoss is Bisu. Jaedong iz zerg and zerg is Jaedong. Flash is terran and terran is Flash. They are inseparable.
Yes Bisu has won more OSLs than any other protoss!!! He's prolly gonna win the last OSL too.
Didn't the coach interview say most players who switched race switched back once they started having trouble with their new race? I doubt we'll see much changing like that.
On April 24 2012 10:34 Ribbon wrote: Didn't the coach interview say most players who switched race switched back once they started having trouble with their new race? I doubt we'll see much changing like that.
most does not mean all, and going off of bisu's strengths and weaknesses terran is probably a better fit for him
marines & medivacs are a multitaskers dream, even moreso than speed prisms with storm and 20+ gateways backing them
On April 24 2012 10:34 Ribbon wrote: Didn't the coach interview say most players who switched race switched back once they started having trouble with their new race? I doubt we'll see much changing like that.
most does not mean all, and going off of bisu's strengths and weaknesses terran is probably a better fit for him
marines & medivacs are a multitaskers dream, even moreso than speed prisms with storm and 20+ gateways backing them
I really doubt it has to do with skill with the race more than muscle memory. Protoss players are just used to Protoss mechanics, and so forth. Hotkeys too...Zealot Z Nexus N Assimilator A Gateway G etc etc also muscle memory
On April 24 2012 10:34 Ribbon wrote: Didn't the coach interview say most players who switched race switched back once they started having trouble with their new race? I doubt we'll see much changing like that.
most does not mean all, and going off of bisu's strengths and weaknesses terran is probably a better fit for him
marines & medivacs are a multitaskers dream, even moreso than speed prisms with storm and 20+ gateways backing them
I really doubt it has to do with skill with the race more than muscle memory. Protoss players are just used to Protoss mechanics, and so forth. Hotkeys too...Zealot Z Nexus N Assimilator A Gateway G etc etc also muscle memory
Not exactly, in starcraft 2 a lot of things changed, first of all warpgate mechanic changed a lot of things, so know the protoss macro from BW is more simmilar to terran.
Also in Bw protoss harrased a lot, in starcraft 2 protoss harrass isnt very good...they are fixing that in HoTS and they buff the drop ship also, but terran in starcraft 2 is really the harrass race, basically you can harrass cost-efficiently with almost all your units, and the drop and multi drop play is very common.
Also terran is the race in starcraft 2 that has the highest skill cap, that means that you can micro a lot and get a great beneffit from that.
Protoss and zergs cant micro as much as terran, terrans units are very versatil and with stim they are so fast that you can micro the very very well, with protoss you cant do hit & run in the same way terrans do because stalkers have a delay while they are doing the animation and if you move soon that you should the stalked wont shoot (while mires in the moment that you stop they atack, also they can spread)
Stalkers in starcraft 2 can blink-micro, wich is great, but in the lategame when there are a lo more units simply you cant select 1 by one your stalkers and blink one by one to the back, so people blink them in groups but its not as effective.
Also in starcraft 2 protoss gate units arent very strong and the race relies in units from higher tech, and terrans relys mostly in tier 1 units with some support, in starcraft BW it was the oppsite way.
I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
sick ! never saw this vid ! Would love to see a 5 prong attack on sc2
The highlights of this match was mostly
Sair/Reaver play, Speedshuttles, Sair/DT/HT. and a speedlot timing on the 4th at 11 o clock iirc.
edit: and insane scourge dodging too
Sadly half the units listed do not exist in SC2 so not sure what Bisu has to work with.
I think HoTS is around the corner though. I really hope bisu doesn't play protoss in sc2, protoss in sc2 is just boring. Hope he plays terran or zerg. That would be interesting.
boo this man! boooooooooooooooo!
You boo me?! I BOO YOU! Bisu for the swarm! GET INFESTED BY KERRIGAN!
Can't you see. Bisu is protoss and protoss is Bisu. Jaedong iz zerg and zerg is Jaedong. Flash is terran and terran is Flash. They are inseparable.
Yes Bisu has won more OSLs than any other protoss!!! He's prolly gonna win the last OSL too.
sick ! never saw this vid ! Would love to see a 5 prong attack on sc2
The highlights of this match was mostly
Sair/Reaver play, Speedshuttles, Sair/DT/HT. and a speedlot timing on the 4th at 11 o clock iirc.
edit: and insane scourge dodging too
Sadly half the units listed do not exist in SC2 so not sure what Bisu has to work with.
I think HoTS is around the corner though. I really hope bisu doesn't play protoss in sc2, protoss in sc2 is just boring. Hope he plays terran or zerg. That would be interesting.
boo this man! boooooooooooooooo!
You boo me?! I BOO YOU! Bisu for the swarm! GET INFESTED BY KERRIGAN!
Can't you see. Bisu is protoss and protoss is Bisu. Jaedong iz zerg and zerg is Jaedong. Flash is terran and terran is Flash. They are inseparable.
Yes Bisu has won more OSLs than any other protoss!!! He's prolly gonna win the last OSL too.
At least Bisu isn't/wasn't a Kong liner
Hard to be a Kong liner if you go AFK mode from individual leagues for 3 years. ;D jk. not really.
On April 23 2012 19:08 Ncutable wrote: Sorry for not reading the thread in whole and maybe being a little off topic. But since some people said that Terran would fit Bisu's Multitasking capability so well. I really think that Zerg might have even more room for sick Multitasking than the other races. I'd love to see some high lvl BW pros using all control groups and constantly harrassing with small groups of Zerglings and always having some overlords around to drop undefended mineral lines etc. while keeping up with their Macro. It always makes me a little bit sad to not see Overlord Drop capability or also Burrow harrass used very often. But I guess when these high lvl pros switch, we'll see some sick Multitasking and harrassment from all the races. Also, I didn't want to say that Bisu should switch to Zerg. I don't want anyone to get offended since I am an absolute BW-newbie.
That kind of extremely fickle multitasking suits Jaedong better than Bisu. Jaedong can't multitask as well as Bisu, but his execution is sublime.
Watch how Jaedong uses one ling to deny spores until his mutas arive.
Bisu's multitasking is a lot more haphazard but at the same time, beautiful to watch. Commentators say he usually keeps tabs of 5 different screens at a time, "does he have 3 hands?!!" comes up quite a lot. He has a unique style of PvZ that others fruitlessly try to copy because they simply don't have the skill to keep corsairs roaming around the map non-stop with perfect macro and harass. He has a habit of losing his shuttle at critical moments a lot giving him the nickname "Kims Shuttle" though, its probably because he often tries to out-do himself by maintaining perfect macro with multitask.
, so I have to watch that later. But thanks for throwing some light on these things for a poor BW-latecomer. Here's hoping then that if Jaedong switches he will show us what Zerg is really able to do...
While these players will be ale to control excellently, i feel people ignore a few things. SC2 is a lot faster than BW. They will need to be faster to do all this harass etc. Secondly, have you looked at how fast MVPDongRaeGu is?. Don't tell me that anyone will be miles ahead of him. He sits constantly over 350 epm and went way higher in the recent MLG. 500 at times. I'm as excited as the next guy for them switching, but i'm cautious as to how fast they can actually be.
I think the biggest skill is actually doing 3 or more things at once. Obviously they could have a higher capability of that but wow would that be impressive.
Are people really now arguing SC2 as the harder game mechanically than BW.... Honestly?
Also lol at 500eapm uhhh you might want to recheck the definition of eapm
Also after googlin
Thats eapm chart from replays
No, he's arguing that its faster paced, not harder mechanically. Also you have to remember that those APM's are calculated based on normal game speed, to get their actual APM you have to multiply by 1.38 (from Liquipedia). I'm not saying that he was right with his eapm statement, but I just thought I would make sure that those stats are viewed in context.
sick ! never saw this vid ! Would love to see a 5 prong attack on sc2
The highlights of this match was mostly
Sair/Reaver play, Speedshuttles, Sair/DT/HT. and a speedlot timing on the 4th at 11 o clock iirc.
edit: and insane scourge dodging too
Sadly half the units listed do not exist in SC2 so not sure what Bisu has to work with.
I think HoTS is around the corner though. I really hope bisu doesn't play protoss in sc2, protoss in sc2 is just boring. Hope he plays terran or zerg. That would be interesting.
boo this man! boooooooooooooooo!
You boo me?! I BOO YOU! Bisu for the swarm! GET INFESTED BY KERRIGAN!
Can't you see. Bisu is protoss and protoss is Bisu. Jaedong iz zerg and zerg is Jaedong. Flash is terran and terran is Flash. They are inseparable.
Yes Bisu has won more OSLs than any other protoss!!! He's prolly gonna win the last OSL too.
Bisu has literally never even been in the finals of an OSL.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
The only edge those players like MVP would have would be more in-depth knowledge of the game since they would have played the game longer Can I take your bet? 200 US dollars.
sick ! never saw this vid ! Would love to see a 5 prong attack on sc2
The highlights of this match was mostly
Sair/Reaver play, Speedshuttles, Sair/DT/HT. and a speedlot timing on the 4th at 11 o clock iirc.
edit: and insane scourge dodging too
Sadly half the units listed do not exist in SC2 so not sure what Bisu has to work with.
I think HoTS is around the corner though. I really hope bisu doesn't play protoss in sc2, protoss in sc2 is just boring. Hope he plays terran or zerg. That would be interesting.
boo this man! boooooooooooooooo!
You boo me?! I BOO YOU! Bisu for the swarm! GET INFESTED BY KERRIGAN!
Can't you see. Bisu is protoss and protoss is Bisu. Jaedong iz zerg and zerg is Jaedong. Flash is terran and terran is Flash. They are inseparable.
Yes Bisu has won more OSLs than any other protoss!!! He's prolly gonna win the last OSL too.
Bisu has literally never even been in the finals of an OSL.
sick ! never saw this vid ! Would love to see a 5 prong attack on sc2
The highlights of this match was mostly
Sair/Reaver play, Speedshuttles, Sair/DT/HT. and a speedlot timing on the 4th at 11 o clock iirc.
edit: and insane scourge dodging too
Sadly half the units listed do not exist in SC2 so not sure what Bisu has to work with.
I think HoTS is around the corner though. I really hope bisu doesn't play protoss in sc2, protoss in sc2 is just boring. Hope he plays terran or zerg. That would be interesting.
boo this man! boooooooooooooooo!
You boo me?! I BOO YOU! Bisu for the swarm! GET INFESTED BY KERRIGAN!
Can't you see. Bisu is protoss and protoss is Bisu. Jaedong iz zerg and zerg is Jaedong. Flash is terran and terran is Flash. They are inseparable.
Yes Bisu has won more OSLs than any other protoss!!! He's prolly gonna win the last OSL too.
Bisu has literally never even been in the finals of an OSL.
this is true. i don't understand why people keep saying he has won OSLs when its simply not a fact.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
The only edge those players like MVP would have would be more in-depth knowledge of the game since they would have played the game longer Can I take your bet? 200 US dollars.
Can I get in on this? I'll throw another 200 in on jaedong beating MVP and I'll put money behind flash, bisu, or stork if you think they'll also be worse than MVP or any other major SCII pro.
sick ! never saw this vid ! Would love to see a 5 prong attack on sc2
The highlights of this match was mostly
Sair/Reaver play, Speedshuttles, Sair/DT/HT. and a speedlot timing on the 4th at 11 o clock iirc.
edit: and insane scourge dodging too
Sadly half the units listed do not exist in SC2 so not sure what Bisu has to work with.
I think HoTS is around the corner though. I really hope bisu doesn't play protoss in sc2, protoss in sc2 is just boring. Hope he plays terran or zerg. That would be interesting.
boo this man! boooooooooooooooo!
You boo me?! I BOO YOU! Bisu for the swarm! GET INFESTED BY KERRIGAN!
Can't you see. Bisu is protoss and protoss is Bisu. Jaedong iz zerg and zerg is Jaedong. Flash is terran and terran is Flash. They are inseparable.
Yes Bisu has won more OSLs than any other protoss!!! He's prolly gonna win the last OSL too.
Bisu has literally never even been in the finals of an OSL.
this is true. i don't understand why people keep saying he has won OSLs when its simply not a fact.
sick ! never saw this vid ! Would love to see a 5 prong attack on sc2
The highlights of this match was mostly
Sair/Reaver play, Speedshuttles, Sair/DT/HT. and a speedlot timing on the 4th at 11 o clock iirc.
edit: and insane scourge dodging too
Sadly half the units listed do not exist in SC2 so not sure what Bisu has to work with.
I think HoTS is around the corner though. I really hope bisu doesn't play protoss in sc2, protoss in sc2 is just boring. Hope he plays terran or zerg. That would be interesting.
boo this man! boooooooooooooooo!
You boo me?! I BOO YOU! Bisu for the swarm! GET INFESTED BY KERRIGAN!
Can't you see. Bisu is protoss and protoss is Bisu. Jaedong iz zerg and zerg is Jaedong. Flash is terran and terran is Flash. They are inseparable.
Yes Bisu has won more OSLs than any other protoss!!! He's prolly gonna win the last OSL too.
Bisu has literally never even been in the finals of an OSL.
this is true. i don't understand why people keep saying he has won OSLs when its simply not a fact.
On April 24 2012 14:53 SilentBonjwa wrote: hope not.
protoss and zerg need more top top players in sc2, but terran is rather oversaturated. there are more than 6 extremely good terrans already
It's not a coincidence. The marine is one of the few units you can infinitely micro in SC2 (Now, with 10 more HP!) relative to BW where you had lings, hydras, vultures, mutas, wraiths, zealots, dragoons, shuttles, etc.... BW pros want to be able to micro units at insanely high levels. If SC2 had more units with micro potential and moving shot then things would be more balanced....but it doesn't, so players that seek at least some sense of satisfaction (and for self-interest) choose terran. It's a no-brainer, really.
Flash: Make mech work in every mu (esp TvP) Bisu: bring protoss to new level of multitask and teach how to use many casters at once Jaedong: Show zergs how to properly be aggressive
On April 24 2012 15:53 Corsica wrote: Flash: Make mech work in every mu (esp TvP) Bisu: bring protoss to new level of multitask and teach how to use many casters at once Jaedong: Show zergs how to properly be aggressive
Stork: Show everyone the power of Carriers ? -_- ;;
On April 24 2012 15:53 Corsica wrote: Flash: Make mech work in every mu (esp TvP) Bisu: bring protoss to new level of multitask and teach how to use many casters at once Jaedong: Show zergs how to properly be aggressive
Stork: Show everyone the power of Carriers ? -_- ;;
no that would be Jangbi, Jangbi is NOTORIOUS for going 2base carriers in TvP.
On April 21 2012 11:01 GTR wrote: I am certain most of the IllIllIlIlII accounts on KR are the BW pros.
I have a feeling as well. They have ridiculous winrates with quite a lot of games played. Although I do remember someone in the SC2 forums saying that many of those are MarineKing's smurfs.
DRG has one of those IllIllIlIlII accounts as well, I doubt a lot of them are bw pros but it's possible still a lot of those could just be guys like leenock,nestea,drg,mkp,oz, etc..
Some of them are, forgg was playing protoss IIIIIIIIIII who was low master at GM MMR and he was having literally gold level forcefields while having good multitasking (well somehow he got this GM MMR) and weird compositions/timings. Its impossible to botch easy stuff while not having problems with difficult stuff unless you are kinda new to SC2 but have very good fundamentals.
On April 24 2012 15:53 Corsica wrote: Flash: Make mech work in every mu (esp TvP) Bisu: bring protoss to new level of multitask and teach how to use many casters at once Jaedong: Show zergs how to properly be aggressive
Stork: Show everyone the power of Carriers ? -_- ;;
no that would be Jangbi, Jangbi is NOTORIOUS for going 2base carriers in TvP.
I just wanted to put full TBLS, i just hate that everyone is forgetting "B" in TBLS
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
On April 24 2012 15:53 Corsica wrote: Flash: Make mech work in every mu (esp TvP) Bisu: bring protoss to new level of multitask and teach how to use many casters at once Jaedong: Show zergs how to properly be aggressive
Stork: Show everyone the power of Carriers ? -_- ;;
no that would be Jangbi, Jangbi is NOTORIOUS for going 2base carriers in TvP.
I just wanted to put full TBLS, i just have the fact everyone is forgetting "B" in TBLS
On April 21 2012 11:01 GTR wrote: I am certain most of the IllIllIlIlII accounts on KR are the BW pros.
I have a feeling as well. They have ridiculous winrates with quite a lot of games played. Although I do remember someone in the SC2 forums saying that many of those are MarineKing's smurfs.
DRG has one of those IllIllIlIlII accounts as well, I doubt a lot of them are bw pros but it's possible still a lot of those could just be guys like leenock,nestea,drg,mkp,oz, etc..
Maybe one or two of them are BW pros, but most of them are just SC2 teams shared accounts, and some players have individual IIIIIIIIIIIII accounts too.
On April 24 2012 15:53 Corsica wrote: Flash: Make mech work in every mu (esp TvP) Bisu: bring protoss to new level of multitask and teach how to use many casters at once Jaedong: Show zergs how to properly be aggressive
Stork: Show everyone the power of Carriers ? -_- ;;
no that would be Jangbi, Jangbi is NOTORIOUS for going 2base carriers in TvP.
I just wanted to put full TBLS, i just have the fact everyone is forgetting "B" in TBLS
The 2 base carrier build was really only for FailFinder, i could also sense a lot of Stork influence in that build.
Bang (Stork in case anyone mistakes the B for Bisu) is more famous for Carrier micro than JangBi anyway.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
On April 24 2012 15:53 Corsica wrote: Flash: Make mech work in every mu (esp TvP) Bisu: bring protoss to new level of multitask and teach how to use many casters at once Jaedong: Show zergs how to properly be aggressive
Stork: Show everyone the power of Carriers ? -_- ;;
no that would be Jangbi, Jangbi is NOTORIOUS for going 2base carriers in TvP.
I just wanted to put full TBLS, i just have the fact everyone is forgetting "B" in TBLS
The 2 base carrier build was really only for FailFinder, i could also sense a lot of Stork influence in that build.
Bang (Stork in case anyone mistakes the B for Bisu) is more famous for Carrier micro than JangBi anyway.
Well im not sure about The Truth, but the image was Stork is carrier bro, Jangbi is templar bro. While no one really knows the true statistics and shit. But 90% of talk on this forum is fanboyism so its ok
About the build, yup i had the same thought only Stork comes up with ridiculously greedy and terrible early game builds that somehow transition into most OP shit midgame when defended properly. Dino was written all over on it. I can imagine the conversation about the build, "yO J. i hear you gonna play this fkin cheeser, i have a build for ya ..."
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
NO. WHY? Because ZERGBONG created the galaxy. You lost your arguments And MVP will armwrestle Flash and prove his wrist are stronger than nano-titanium wrists. I have knowledge you have fanboyism, sorry.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
NO. WHY? Because ZERGBONG created the galaxy. You lost your arguments And MVP will armwrestle Flash and prove his wrist are stronger than nano-titanium wrists. I have knowledge you have fanboyism, sorry.
I agree that Flash has tiny nano girly wrists (how else would be go 0-2 vs superior KT)
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
I totally agree with this post. I think if/when these big guns switch and got in enough practice people will have to realize how many mistakes the current top players really make. It will be a first glimpse at what flawless SC2-play might look like. PERFECT micro and macro at the same time. Take any game where your favorite player played almost perfectly and realize this is what you will have to do EVERY game just to compete for GSL and such. So many things will be done with this game we don't know are possible yet. + Show Spoiler +
But maybe that's just me dreaming and these RTS-gods will just suck.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
I totally agree with this post. I think if/when these big guns switch and got in enough practice people will have to realize how many mistakes the current top players really make. It will be a first glimpse at what flawless SC2-play might look like. PERFECT micro and macro at the same time. Take any game where your favorite player played almost perfectly and realize this is what you will have to do EVERY game just to compete for GSL and such. So many things will be done with this game we don't know are possible yet. + Show Spoiler +
But maybe that's just me dreaming and these RTS-gods will just suck.
To be frank there is no perfect macro and micro, and never will be even in sc2. You cant really make 3 things in 1 second and i could quote Bisu on that (i dont remember exact quote TT)
Actually when the games get closer in skill level opponents will make you do more mistakes. That was the beauty of BW and maybe SC2 will evolve into more mistake inducing game. But not banelings into marines u dead, or FF your army u dead ones, kinda more drawn-out situations of crisis.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
I totally agree with this post. I think if/when these big guns switch and got in enough practice people will have to realize how many mistakes the current top players really make. It will be a first glimpse at what flawless SC2-play might look like. PERFECT micro and macro at the same time. Take any game where your favorite player played almost perfectly and realize this is what you will have to do EVERY game just to compete for GSL and such. So many things will be done with this game we don't know are possible yet. + Show Spoiler +
But maybe that's just me dreaming and these RTS-gods will just suck.
To be frank there is no perfect macro and micro, and never will be even in sc2. You cant really make 3 things in 1 second and i could quote Bisu on that (i dont remember exact quote TT)
Actually when the games get closer in skill level opponents will make you do more mistakes. That was the beauty of BW and maybe SC2 will evolve into more mistake inducing game. But not banelings into marines u dead, or FF your army u dead ones, kinda more drawn-out situations of crisis.
Yea, sorry for exaggerating a bit. Also agree with you on the second part. I didn´t mean there won´t be any mistakes anymore. Just that players will not be able to afford to make kinda "unenforced" mistakes. Mistakes will be made on a "higher level" because the pressure and intensity will be so much tougher that people just cannot keep up with everything all the time. imo this point isn´t reached at all yet. But like I said before, I have no real knowledge about BW, I just hope some of these guys will switch and then crush the present state of SC2 and bring it to the next level.
I doubt there will be the separation that we see in BW. SC2 was designed from the ground up so that build orders and unit composition matters way more than they do in BW. There's still a distinction between foreigners and Koreans but I doubt there will be the separation between S-class and A-class or within A-class that we see in BW.
The winrates between the top players in BW and the top players in SC2 are pretty much the same. SC2 players lose more.. because they play more. Flash doesn't win every single game. If the game wasn't as easy to distinguish top players.. then we wouldn't have that easily comparable stats.
There's still so many things that can be improved on micro wise in SC2.. look at MKP's storm dodging, not every player can do that properly. and even MKP doesn't do it perfectly yet. There's plenty of other examples where there are still improvements being made that are game changing.. warp prism play is still a mess, occasionally someone will do something awesome but not consistently.. but it's only a matter of time.
The games are not equal 1-1. What is impressive skill wise in BW is not necessarily the same as in SC2.. it does not mean that SC2 is worse, its just different.
For what it's worth, every game I watched of BW last season (granted not many) to me looked no different to how SC2 games played out. I did only see mostly mirrors to be fair, but if it wasn't for the graphical differences they'd could have been the same game.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
While I don't say you need or should make the transition to SC2 we can't expect that every top BW pro will dominate SC2 when there are lots of very competent people that has been practicing that game for 2 years (if you include beta).
BW is a more difficult game to learn but I feel that mistakes or slight errors in decision making in SC2 can easier lose the game or be harder to come back from. This makes it harder to be consistent even though your macro/micro is superior. That does not mean it is impossible. The 3 last MLG's have had the exact same finalists and a very similar top 8. During MVP's dominance he was pretty much unbeatable but his wrist problems prevented him from practicing and he started losing (he's still doing extremely well though). Win rates of the best are same as the BW win rates and foreigners suck compared to koreans. Skill cap won't ever be reached and the best will still win the most.
That doesn't mean you have to like the switch or like SC2 at all. I'm just sure that we are far from seeing optimal play and that the game is developing. I mean less than a month ago forge fast expanding was discovered as a viable opening PvT lol.
On April 25 2012 00:47 andrewlt wrote: I doubt there will be the separation that we see in BW. SC2 was designed from the ground up so that build orders and unit composition matters way more than they do in BW. There's still a distinction between foreigners and Koreans but I doubt there will be the separation between S-class and A-class or within A-class that we see in BW.
On April 25 2012 01:39 Gingerninja wrote: The winrates between the top players in BW and the top players in SC2 are pretty much the same. SC2 players lose more.. because they play more. Flash doesn't win every single game. If the game wasn't as easy to distinguish top players.. then we wouldn't have that easily comparable stats.
There's still so many things that can be improved on micro wise in SC2.. look at MKP's storm dodging, not every player can do that properly. and even MKP doesn't do it perfectly yet. There's plenty of other examples where there are still improvements being made that are game changing.. warp prism play is still a mess, occasionally someone will do something awesome but not consistently.. but it's only a matter of time.
The games are not equal 1-1. What is impressive skill wise in BW is not necessarily the same as in SC2.. it does not mean that SC2 is worse, its just different.
For what it's worth, every game I watched of BW last season (granted not many) to me looked no different to how SC2 games played out. I did only see mostly mirrors to be fair, but if it wasn't for the graphical differences they'd could have been the same game.
i guess a picasso original and a cutout from walmart would look the same to a blind person, so that's a good point you made there.
On April 24 2012 15:53 Corsica wrote: Flash: Make mech work in every mu (esp TvP) Bisu: bring protoss to new level of multitask and teach how to use many casters at once Jaedong: Show zergs how to properly be aggressive
Stork: Show everyone the power of Carriers ? -_- ;;
no that would be Jangbi, Jangbi is NOTORIOUS for going 2base carriers in TvP.
I just wanted to put full TBLS, i just have the fact everyone is forgetting "B" in TBLS
On April 24 2012 15:53 Corsica wrote: Flash: Make mech work in every mu (esp TvP) Bisu: bring protoss to new level of multitask and teach how to use many casters at once Jaedong: Show zergs how to properly be aggressive
Stork: Show everyone the power of Carriers ? -_- ;;
no that would be Jangbi, Jangbi is NOTORIOUS for going 2base carriers in TvP.
By the time they switch the Carrier will cease to exist probably
On April 24 2012 15:53 Corsica wrote: Flash: Make mech work in every mu (esp TvP) Bisu: bring protoss to new level of multitask and teach how to use many casters at once Jaedong: Show zergs how to properly be aggressive
Stork: Show everyone the power of Carriers ? -_- ;;
no that would be Jangbi, Jangbi is NOTORIOUS for going 2base carriers in TvP.
I just wanted to put full TBLS, i just have the fact everyone is forgetting "B" in TBLS
On April 25 2012 01:39 Gingerninja wrote: The winrates between the top players in BW and the top players in SC2 are pretty much the same. SC2 players lose more.. because they play more. Flash doesn't win every single game. If the game wasn't as easy to distinguish top players.. then we wouldn't have that easily comparable stats.
There's still so many things that can be improved on micro wise in SC2.. look at MKP's storm dodging, not every player can do that properly. and even MKP doesn't do it perfectly yet. There's plenty of other examples where there are still improvements being made that are game changing.. warp prism play is still a mess, occasionally someone will do something awesome but not consistently.. but it's only a matter of time.
The games are not equal 1-1. What is impressive skill wise in BW is not necessarily the same as in SC2.. it does not mean that SC2 is worse, its just different.
For what it's worth, every game I watched of BW last season (granted not many) to me looked no different to how SC2 games played out. I did only see mostly mirrors to be fair, but if it wasn't for the graphical differences they'd could have been the same game.
i guess a picasso original and a cutout from walmart would look the same to a blind person, so that's a good point you made there.
As casual viewership is what's going to save your ship from sinking, then yes its a great point. It's ok, you can remain as elitist as you wish, in a few month's it's not going to matter.
On April 25 2012 00:47 andrewlt wrote: I doubt there will be the separation that we see in BW. SC2 was designed from the ground up so that build orders and unit composition matters way more than they do in BW. There's still a distinction between foreigners and Koreans but I doubt there will be the separation between S-class and A-class or within A-class that we see in BW.
...This is pretty uninformed.
This is kind of what I meant. We see some people with win rates similar to BW pros, but the truth is, the game is still young. People are going on massive runs based off a superior understanding of small things. MC forcefields extremely well, and this gave him some very powerful gateway timings that allowed him to make some players just look outclassed. At the same time, we've seen these timings fail miserably or lose to a single banshee. Nestea has his incredible zvz record and introduced muta play as well as doing some bane vs roach play, but other zergs are catching up and beating him now (and I don't just mean other code S champion zergs).
The point is, it is very difficult to overcome a disadvantage in SC2 through superior play. Most people have seen Day[9]'s talk about frisbees vs baseballs. That is the sort of thing I mean, though on a larger scale. All the fundamentals that distinguish tiers of players are there: macro, multitask, series planning, etc. Still, something is missing.
Remember how upset flash fanboys got when he kept going 14cc and losing to anyone with an early attack? Everyone wondered why he would do that when he had the superior skill that would allow him to play safe and come back from any economic disadvantage. I feel like that sort of question doesn't come up in SC2.
On April 25 2012 00:47 andrewlt wrote: I doubt there will be the separation that we see in BW. SC2 was designed from the ground up so that build orders and unit composition matters way more than they do in BW. There's still a distinction between foreigners and Koreans but I doubt there will be the separation between S-class and A-class or within A-class that we see in BW.
...This is pretty uninformed.
Really? Flash made his run abusing 1-rax cc against anything and everything. The recently concluded SKT vs KT finals featured multiple games where the winner had an inferior build order.
On April 25 2012 00:47 andrewlt wrote: I doubt there will be the separation that we see in BW. SC2 was designed from the ground up so that build orders and unit composition matters way more than they do in BW. There's still a distinction between foreigners and Koreans but I doubt there will be the separation between S-class and A-class or within A-class that we see in BW.
...This is pretty uninformed.
Really? Flash made his run abusing 1-rax cc against anything and everything. The recently concluded SKT vs KT finals featured multiple games where the winner had an inferior build order.
It been said a million times and often gets shot down, but I would say in time SC2 will come down to similar needs as BW. The way its designed causes engagement to end faster, but when there are enough players with pretty flawless build execution, it will force players to be able to survive even with less that optimal build or unit choices. Players won't gg once they scout a build that work well against their general route.
I think the scene and standard of play has grown exponentially on global scale from launch, in great part due to BW lessons and training methods developed and carried over to SC2. But I really don't think we hit a ceiling yet. Perhaps the growth is slowing down such that more minor advancements are distinguishing players from one another, but thats much like BW no? At launch it was a game based on miles, then feet, inches, etc. Thats what interests me.
I was not fortunate enough to be there to see the competitive BW scene evolve into its current nuances, so I do enjoy seeing SC2 grow. Although comparatively it might seem like fast forwarding since SC2 scene has the benefit of dodging pitfalls that BW had to learn the hard way.
On April 25 2012 00:47 andrewlt wrote: I doubt there will be the separation that we see in BW. SC2 was designed from the ground up so that build orders and unit composition matters way more than they do in BW. There's still a distinction between foreigners and Koreans but I doubt there will be the separation between S-class and A-class or within A-class that we see in BW.
...This is pretty uninformed.
Really? Flash made his run abusing 1-rax cc against anything and everything. The recently concluded SKT vs KT finals featured multiple games where the winner had an inferior build order.
Well you should remember that there is a huge difference between an opening and a build. And actually Flash changes up his style vastly game to game (especially in TvZ, and TvT... TvP by nature allows less viable options from Terrans).
I agree though that Flash isn't a guaranteed bonjwa. The lack of control in sc2 compared to BW allows players to reap a lot of success by committing to stupid risky blind strategies. If anything we might just have a ton of people who are all around the same level and all win around the same amount, which I would love since it would either kill sc2 or force the developers to make it a better game.
On April 25 2012 04:56 SKDN wrote: when broodwar pros move over to sc2 its like when columbus colonized over to America, in other words we are doomed!
Despite their great mechanics, the BW pros still need to adjust to their understanding of the game. I think their early games will end up like this:
Flash vs Incontrol: Flash doesn't know that DT's can be warped to proxy pylons, got his turrets 20 seconds late. Proceeds to lose the game to Incontrol's DT's.
Jaeding vs Incontrol: Jaedong thinks that overlords can still detect invis units, doesn't make an overseer and loses to Incontrol's DT's.
On April 25 2012 15:01 ppshchik wrote: Despite their great mechanics, the BW pros still need to adjust to their understanding of the game. I think their early games will end up like this:
Flash vs Incontrol: Flash doesn't know that DT's can be warped to proxy pylons, got his turrets 20 seconds late. Proceeds to lose the game to Incontrol's DT's.
Jaeding vs Incontrol: Jaedong thinks that overlords can still detect invis units, doesn't make an overseer and loses to Incontrol's DT's.
Bisu vs Incontrol: Loses to Incontrol's 4 gate.
Nah nah. I think more the same old same old will happen.
Bisu mistakens GSL for an OSL and loses in qualifiers to miso
Flash stims 5 times in 1 second, loses control group of marines to 1 baneling.
Jaedong wonders why he has so few units, only to end up discovering 50 supply worth of ultras and infestors stuck at his main choke.
On April 25 2012 04:56 SKDN wrote: when broodwar pros move over to sc2 its like when columbus colonized over to America, in other words we are doomed!
Despite their great mechanics, the BW pros still need to adjust to their understanding of the game. I think their early games will end up like this:
Flash vs Incontrol: Flash doesn't know that DT's can be warped to proxy pylons, got his turrets 20 seconds late. Proceeds to lose the game to Incontrol's DT's.
Jaeding vs Incontrol: Jaedong thinks that overlords can still detect invis units, doesn't make an overseer and loses to Incontrol's DT's.
Bisu vs Incontrol: Loses to Incontrol's 4 gate.
...Yes. Flash is that stupid. He's gotten all the way to Masters without ever realizing that Protoss has warpgates.
On April 25 2012 15:01 ppshchik wrote: Despite their great mechanics, the BW pros still need to adjust to their understanding of the game. I think their early games will end up like this:
Flash vs Incontrol: Flash doesn't know that DT's can be warped to proxy pylons, got his turrets 20 seconds late. Proceeds to lose the game to Incontrol's DT's.
Jaeding vs Incontrol: Jaedong thinks that overlords can still detect invis units, doesn't make an overseer and loses to Incontrol's DT's.
Bisu vs Incontrol: Loses to Incontrol's 4 gate.
Nah nah. I think more the same old same old will happen.
Bisu mistakens GSL for an OSL and loses in qualifiers to miso
Flash stims 5 times in 1 second, loses control group of marines to 1 baneling.
Jaedong wonders why he has so few units, only to end up discovering 50 supply worth of ultras and infestors stuck at his main choke.
I lol'd
You forgot to add, "and Jaedong still wins anyway".
Guys when you make jokes about how BW pros can't adjust to SC2, you can't use iNcontroL in the example as the person who randomly beats TLBS.
That shit isn't even close to believable so it's not funny. You should be using persons like former bonjwas NaDa, BoxeR and July (he was at least semi-bonjwa), or former BW scrubs like MVP, MC and NesTea, or former BW scrubber-scrubs like MMA and DRG.
Yeah, it's gonna be like, "oh shit, MMA actually beat Flash in an RTS" for a couple months.
It's rather weird if Bisu will play terran. I'm Bisu fan and also Protoss fan. How will i root for him when he plays a race that i usually want to lose? :-\
On April 25 2012 15:41 tyCe wrote: Guys when you make jokes about how BW pros can't adjust to SC2, you can't use iNcontroL in the example as the person who randomly beats TLBS.
That shit isn't even close to believable so it's not funny. You should be using persons like former bonjwas NaDa, BoxeR and July (he was at least semi-bonjwa), or former BW scrubs like MVP, MC and NesTea, or former BW scrubber-scrubs like MMA and DRG.
Yeah, it's gonna be like, "oh shit, MMA actually beat Flash in an RTS" for a couple months.
Incontrol actually won a game online against jaedong in ZvZ.
On April 25 2012 15:41 tyCe wrote: Guys when you make jokes about how BW pros can't adjust to SC2, you can't use iNcontroL in the example as the person who randomly beats TLBS.
That shit isn't even close to believable so it's not funny. You should be using persons like former bonjwas NaDa, BoxeR and July (he was at least semi-bonjwa), or former BW scrubs like MVP, MC and NesTea, or former BW scrubber-scrubs like MMA and DRG.
Yeah, it's gonna be like, "oh shit, MMA actually beat Flash in an RTS" for a couple months.
The coaches themselves said that BW skill does not necessarily translate to SCII skill. Who knows how good Bisu, Flash and Jaedong will be? With their work-ethic they should get far but who knows how they can handle 3D.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too.
And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
If you're a real fan you support your heroes through everything. If you're a real fan you want to show them you're still there even though their world is getting broken down and put back together in another quise. If you're a real fan you would understand that it will be so much harder for them to switch than it will be for you.
On April 25 2012 16:25 Jenia6109 wrote: It's rather weird if Bisu will play terran. I'm Bisu fan and also Protoss fan. How will i root for him when he plays a race that i usually want to lose? :-\
Lol we have the same problem here. Yesterday I went on Liquidpedia trying to read some SC2 Terran BO, but the anti-terran mind of me is just too strong that I started to hate myself so I stopped. Bisu, why....
I can unterstand Bisu if he switches. Right now Terran is the only race able to get constant results which is a result of game design.... In BW all races had the chance to play constantly on a very high level but in SC2 it's currently only Terrans that can get it done really as Terran is the race which is less reluctant on luck imho.
well bisu would be more than just good in comparison to the pros who are now famous. alive would be a good terran and bisu would be ridiculously awesome
On April 25 2012 16:25 Jenia6109 wrote: It's rather weird if Bisu will play terran. I'm Bisu fan and also Protoss fan. How will i root for him when he plays a race that i usually want to lose? :-\
Lol we have the same problem here. Yesterday I went on Liquidpedia trying to read some SC2 Terran BO, but the anti-terran mind of me is just too strong that I started to hate myself so I stopped. Bisu, why....
I decide to cheer for the player rather than race.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
plz dont switch do it for aiur..... or u become in a traitor protoss. U will dont have fans terrans because u was protoss and protoss hates u..............
On April 25 2012 15:41 tyCe wrote: Guys when you make jokes about how BW pros can't adjust to SC2, you can't use iNcontroL in the example as the person who randomly beats TLBS.
That shit isn't even close to believable so it's not funny. You should be using persons like former bonjwas NaDa, BoxeR and July (he was at least semi-bonjwa), or former BW scrubs like MVP, MC and NesTea, or former BW scrubber-scrubs like MMA and DRG.
Yeah, it's gonna be like, "oh shit, MMA actually beat Flash in an RTS" for a couple months.
Incontrol actually won a game online against jaedong in ZvZ.
Replay was on site at some point.
lol bo9 i am sure incontrol wont win more than 2 games ^^ , is about the % , not about a single win and you think incontrol can be compare against jaedong. all progamer is not god
On April 25 2012 15:41 tyCe wrote: Guys when you make jokes about how BW pros can't adjust to SC2, you can't use iNcontroL in the example as the person who randomly beats TLBS.
That shit isn't even close to believable so it's not funny. You should be using persons like former bonjwas NaDa, BoxeR and July (he was at least semi-bonjwa), or former BW scrubs like MVP, MC and NesTea, or former BW scrubber-scrubs like MMA and DRG.
Yeah, it's gonna be like, "oh shit, MMA actually beat Flash in an RTS" for a couple months.
Incontrol actually won a game online against jaedong in ZvZ.
Replay was on site at some point.
lol bo9 i am sure incontrol wont win more than 2 games ^^ , is about the % , not about a single win and you think incontrol can be compare against jaedong. all progamer is not god
in a bo9 he wouldn't win a single game random battlenet games are really different to tournament
On April 21 2012 10:40 Caladbolg wrote: As long as we're at it... I've been checking Sc2ranks pretty often lately, trying to find out who the BW progamers were. I'm not sure how many stuck with their original BW names and how many are playing under smurfs. Does anyone keep tabs on them?
Is FBH the BraQ guy on GM with a 74% win rate? Is the Bisu guy playing Protoss Bisu? (so many people early on had all sorts of iterations of Bisu as their name) Is GoojiLa = Kal? Etc etc.
I had a list before but somehow lost it.
Possible list (those not written in Korean characters) in order of points (descending). Take note season is relatively new. Some already have an amazing amount of games characteristic of BW pros (like forgg, etc)
GM
BraQ (FBH?) Bisu maRie
Masters
last zero KDY (Kim Dae Yeob?) GooJila (Kal?) Grape Shine firebathero (toss, lol) Stork Flash (zerg, below 50% winrate... I doubt) Sharp oDin Reality movie Free (zerg... I remember seeing a free before who was toss) Light (a bad zerg, likely not Light) GGPLAY (likely someone else's smurf, as ggplay was injured and stopped BW because of that injury) Stardust (terran, lol) Flash (66% toss) Bisu (47% toss) FanTaSy Midas effort
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol
indeed, nearly every good sc2 player played broodwar at a high level
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality
What do you mean? You can bash SC2 to death here. Just don't say anything bad about Brood War, that upsets people.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol
indeed, nearly every good sc2 player played broodwar at a high level
Only korean who doesn't have BW experience and who has won a GSL is Polt, who was a wc3 amateur.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality
lol I don't care. If people are going to come in here and act like they understand BW while their posts show the exact opposite, I have no qualms about calling them out on it.
And I'm going to admit, I'm not that informed either, but at least I know enough to not make the statement:
"BW pros who have switched over have not done well."
That statement is laugh worthy and should seriously be voted for as one of the most ignorant posts in the BW/SC2 discussion in a long time.
I switched from playing Zerg in Brood War to playing Terran in SC2. It was honestly just a playstyle change and a nice change of scenery. I am sure with the amount of practice these guys put in, learning a new race will be easier.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality
lol I don't care. If people are going to come in here and act like they understand BW while their posts show the exact opposite, I have no qualms about calling them out on it.
And I'm going to admit, I'm not that informed either, but at least I know enough to not make the statement:
"BW pros who have switched over have not done well."
That statement is laugh worthy and should seriously be voted for as one of the most ignorant posts in the BW/SC2 discussion in a long time.
You know if only sc2 vs bw arguments could be epic like this .... I mean I can guarantee you both sides are not satisfied until one of us is annihilated.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality
lol I don't care. If people are going to come in here and act like they understand BW while their posts show the exact opposite, I have no qualms about calling them out on it.
And I'm going to admit, I'm not that informed either, but at least I know enough to not make the statement:
"BW pros who have switched over have not done well."
That statement is laugh worthy and should seriously be voted for as one of the most ignorant posts in the BW/SC2 discussion in a long time.
No-one really said that I think, no-one's arguing former BW players have done well in SC2. Doing well is different from dominating though.
It's a weird argument anyways, MKP, MC, MMA haven't become good at SC2 because they had a past in BW. They're this good because they practice hard and are talented RTS players. Writing their succes up to BW implies that BW and SC2 are the same game, SC2 just being a "light" version. Which time and time again has been proven wrong, SC2 is a completely different game and it requires a different skillset from it's players than BW does.
So no, BW players aren't going to be dominating like the flick of a switch. Flash and Jaedong aren't going to step in and win on pure talent. They're going to have to put in the time and effort to rise to the current level of competition in Starcraft 2.
This can't happen. T_T Bisu needs to revolutionize PvZ again. I imagine proxy pylons and warp prisms everywhere, harass from every direction and phoenix squads clearing overseers while DT's tear entire mineral lines apart. Bisu noooooooo.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality
lol I don't care. If people are going to come in here and act like they understand BW while their posts show the exact opposite, I have no qualms about calling them out on it.
And I'm going to admit, I'm not that informed either, but at least I know enough to not make the statement:
"BW pros who have switched over have not done well."
That statement is laugh worthy and should seriously be voted for as one of the most ignorant posts in the BW/SC2 discussion in a long time.
No-one really said that I think, no-one's arguing former BW players have done well in SC2. Doing well is different from dominating though.
It's a weird argument anyways, MKP, MC, MMA haven't become good at SC2 because they had a past in BW. They're this good because they practice hard and are talented RTS players. Writing their succes up to BW implies that BW and SC2 are the same game, SC2 just being a "light" version. Which time and time again has been proven wrong, SC2 is a completely different game and it requires a different skillset from it's players than BW does.
So no, BW players aren't going to be dominating like the flick of a switch. Flash and Jaedong aren't going to step in and win on pure talent. They're going to have to put in the time and effort to rise to the current level of competition in Starcraft 2.
- Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did'
Ok.. im going to leave ^ this ^ for you then. B.T.W. the rehabilitation that Ji-Hoon ((flash's coach)) was talking about, is the surgery he had on his wrist, that prevented him from competing in Sc/Bw for awhile.
So in Conclusion, a GIMPED Flash is at least Master level on Sc2, a GIMPED Flash is AT LEAST Master level on Sc2, let that sink in. So yea, players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu will still run the show if they switch over.. GGnore
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality
lol I don't care. If people are going to come in here and act like they understand BW while their posts show the exact opposite, I have no qualms about calling them out on it.
And I'm going to admit, I'm not that informed either, but at least I know enough to not make the statement:
"BW pros who have switched over have not done well."
That statement is laugh worthy and should seriously be voted for as one of the most ignorant posts in the BW/SC2 discussion in a long time.
No-one really said that I think, no-one's arguing former BW players have done well in SC2. Doing well is different from dominating though.
It's a weird argument anyways, MKP, MC, MMA haven't become good at SC2 because they had a past in BW. They're this good because they practice hard and are talented RTS players. Writing their succes up to BW implies that BW and SC2 are the same game, SC2 just being a "light" version. Which time and time again has been proven wrong, SC2 is a completely different game and it requires a different skillset from it's players than BW does.
So no, BW players aren't going to be dominating like the flick of a switch. Flash and Jaedong aren't going to step in and win on pure talent. They're going to have to put in the time and effort to rise to the current level of competition in Starcraft 2.
If by time and effort, you mean Flash getting to Masters during wrist surgery without even knowing what the new units did, then sure, I guess they'll take "time and effort".
Also, I agree that SC2 is a completely different game, because I don't want to associate it with BW in any sense. But it's not like the two are different mechanically. What mechanics in SC2 actually take effort to learn if you're a BW player? There's not a single one I can name where BW mechanics actually makes it harder.
If anything, a pro player like Bisu or Flash would just be staring at the user interface and laughing while they say "What? And I can 1a now too? lolololololol"
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote: [quote]
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality
lol I don't care. If people are going to come in here and act like they understand BW while their posts show the exact opposite, I have no qualms about calling them out on it.
And I'm going to admit, I'm not that informed either, but at least I know enough to not make the statement:
"BW pros who have switched over have not done well."
That statement is laugh worthy and should seriously be voted for as one of the most ignorant posts in the BW/SC2 discussion in a long time.
No-one really said that I think, no-one's arguing former BW players have done well in SC2. Doing well is different from dominating though.
It's a weird argument anyways, MKP, MC, MMA haven't become good at SC2 because they had a past in BW. They're this good because they practice hard and are talented RTS players. Writing their succes up to BW implies that BW and SC2 are the same game, SC2 just being a "light" version. Which time and time again has been proven wrong, SC2 is a completely different game and it requires a different skillset from it's players than BW does.
So no, BW players aren't going to be dominating like the flick of a switch. Flash and Jaedong aren't going to step in and win on pure talent. They're going to have to put in the time and effort to rise to the current level of competition in Starcraft 2.
- Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did'
Ok.. im going to leave ^ this ^ for you then. B.T.W. the rehabilitation that Ji-Hoon ((flash's coach)) was talking about, is the surgery he had on his wrist, that prevented him from competing in Sc/Bw for awhile.
So in Conclusion, a GIMPED Flash is at least Master level on Sc2, a GIMPED Flash is AT LEAST Master level on Sc2, let that sink in. So yea, players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu will still run the show if they switch over.. GGnore
Well to be fair, anyone who has been playing sc1 some what seriously on iccup or fish will get to master league pretty easy on macro and overall mechanics alone. Master league is nothing impressive, it's not like A on iccup, nor B. There is so many bad players in master league it's kinda sad that it's so easy to get master league. If Flash would have gotten GM during the time he was injured and played vs current SC2 progamers it would have been impressive. Don't look into it to much.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote: [quote]
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality
lol I don't care. If people are going to come in here and act like they understand BW while their posts show the exact opposite, I have no qualms about calling them out on it.
And I'm going to admit, I'm not that informed either, but at least I know enough to not make the statement:
"BW pros who have switched over have not done well."
That statement is laugh worthy and should seriously be voted for as one of the most ignorant posts in the BW/SC2 discussion in a long time.
No-one really said that I think, no-one's arguing former BW players have done well in SC2. Doing well is different from dominating though.
It's a weird argument anyways, MKP, MC, MMA haven't become good at SC2 because they had a past in BW. They're this good because they practice hard and are talented RTS players. Writing their succes up to BW implies that BW and SC2 are the same game, SC2 just being a "light" version. Which time and time again has been proven wrong, SC2 is a completely different game and it requires a different skillset from it's players than BW does.
So no, BW players aren't going to be dominating like the flick of a switch. Flash and Jaedong aren't going to step in and win on pure talent. They're going to have to put in the time and effort to rise to the current level of competition in Starcraft 2.
- Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did'
Ok.. im going to leave ^ this ^ for you then. B.T.W. the rehabilitation that Ji-Hoon ((flash's coach)) was talking about, is the surgery he had on his wrist, that prevented him from competing in Sc/Bw for awhile.
So in Conclusion, a GIMPED Flash is at least Master level on Sc2, a GIMPED Flash is AT LEAST Master level on Sc2, let that sink in. So yea, players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu will still run the show if they switch over.. GGnore
Well to be fair, anyone who has been playing sc1 some what seriously on iccup or fish will get to master league pretty easy on macro and overall mechanics alone. Master league is nothing impressive, it's not like A on iccup, nor B. There is so many bad players in master league it's kinda sad that it's so easy to get master league. If Flash would have gotten GM during the time he was injured and played vs current SC2 progamers it would have been impressive. Don't look into it to much.
Yea.. how about you dont try making a fallacious argument.. Flash was gimped, he could not play Sc/Bw because of his surgery, and he was still able to get to Masters, without knowing any Build Orders, counters this that and the other thing. The fact remains, he was Gimped ((presumably only used one hand)) didnt know anything about the game, and reached masters no problem.. he can ((if he switch's, he will)) get Code S easily((better than Grand Master)), because he will know builds, he will have actually put in training and what have you. For counter balance ((if you are intent on sticking to your fallacious arguments)) SKT already has a fair number of Grand Masters, if you belive all the Sc/Bw coach's.
What's impressive is that he still didn't know what the new units did . I think most BW pros would at least already try out sc2 for fun in their free time. Child labor terran ftw :|.
The only way I see TBLS not succeeding in sc2 is if they lose their spirit from being forced to switch & if some of them were already sick of being a pro. Since they are top tier of BW with ridiculous work ethic and talent, I doubt it applies to them much.
^well, no one would be surprised if A-/A iccup korean amateur got into masters on korean server, not knowing the BOs & how the units work. That'd be still better than almost every foreigner at the time when foreigners switched; although they would have to catch up on all the BO's, making up builds enough to get to masters would be intuitive. Now, compared to the abstract korean amateur, Flash is bunch of levels higher (Flash > S class >> PL/SL regular >> A teamer >>> B teamer >> A-/A amateur > foreigner bw players / equal to top of them) So yeah, not surprising.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote: [quote]
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality
lol I don't care. If people are going to come in here and act like they understand BW while their posts show the exact opposite, I have no qualms about calling them out on it.
And I'm going to admit, I'm not that informed either, but at least I know enough to not make the statement:
"BW pros who have switched over have not done well."
That statement is laugh worthy and should seriously be voted for as one of the most ignorant posts in the BW/SC2 discussion in a long time.
No-one really said that I think, no-one's arguing former BW players have done well in SC2. Doing well is different from dominating though.
It's a weird argument anyways, MKP, MC, MMA haven't become good at SC2 because they had a past in BW. They're this good because they practice hard and are talented RTS players. Writing their succes up to BW implies that BW and SC2 are the same game, SC2 just being a "light" version. Which time and time again has been proven wrong, SC2 is a completely different game and it requires a different skillset from it's players than BW does.
So no, BW players aren't going to be dominating like the flick of a switch. Flash and Jaedong aren't going to step in and win on pure talent. They're going to have to put in the time and effort to rise to the current level of competition in Starcraft 2.
- Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did'
Ok.. im going to leave ^ this ^ for you then. B.T.W. the rehabilitation that Ji-Hoon ((flash's coach)) was talking about, is the surgery he had on his wrist, that prevented him from competing in Sc/Bw for awhile.
So in Conclusion, a GIMPED Flash is at least Master level on Sc2, a GIMPED Flash is AT LEAST Master level on Sc2, let that sink in. So yea, players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu will still run the show if they switch over.. GGnore
Well to be fair, anyone who has been playing sc1 some what seriously on iccup or fish will get to master league pretty easy on macro and overall mechanics alone. Master league is nothing impressive, it's not like A on iccup, nor B. There is so many bad players in master league it's kinda sad that it's so easy to get master league. If Flash would have gotten GM during the time he was injured and played vs current SC2 progamers it would have been impressive. Don't look into it to much.
This is true for NA masters, but not for KR. Masters on KR is more like mid-high GM NA/EU, and is filled with code A level players. Low Masters NA is about plat or high gold on KR.
For reference: I play 1200-1300pt NA masters players and low GM's, but I'm low/mid diamond on KR
On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote: [quote]
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote: [quote]I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote: [quote]
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality
lol I don't care. If people are going to come in here and act like they understand BW while their posts show the exact opposite, I have no qualms about calling them out on it.
And I'm going to admit, I'm not that informed either, but at least I know enough to not make the statement:
"BW pros who have switched over have not done well."
That statement is laugh worthy and should seriously be voted for as one of the most ignorant posts in the BW/SC2 discussion in a long time.
No-one really said that I think, no-one's arguing former BW players have done well in SC2. Doing well is different from dominating though.
It's a weird argument anyways, MKP, MC, MMA haven't become good at SC2 because they had a past in BW. They're this good because they practice hard and are talented RTS players. Writing their succes up to BW implies that BW and SC2 are the same game, SC2 just being a "light" version. Which time and time again has been proven wrong, SC2 is a completely different game and it requires a different skillset from it's players than BW does.
So no, BW players aren't going to be dominating like the flick of a switch. Flash and Jaedong aren't going to step in and win on pure talent. They're going to have to put in the time and effort to rise to the current level of competition in Starcraft 2.
- Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did'
Ok.. im going to leave ^ this ^ for you then. B.T.W. the rehabilitation that Ji-Hoon ((flash's coach)) was talking about, is the surgery he had on his wrist, that prevented him from competing in Sc/Bw for awhile.
So in Conclusion, a GIMPED Flash is at least Master level on Sc2, a GIMPED Flash is AT LEAST Master level on Sc2, let that sink in. So yea, players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu will still run the show if they switch over.. GGnore
Well to be fair, anyone who has been playing sc1 some what seriously on iccup or fish will get to master league pretty easy on macro and overall mechanics alone. Master league is nothing impressive, it's not like A on iccup, nor B. There is so many bad players in master league it's kinda sad that it's so easy to get master league. If Flash would have gotten GM during the time he was injured and played vs current SC2 progamers it would have been impressive. Don't look into it to much.
This is true for NA masters, but not for KR. Masters on KR is more like mid-high GM NA/EU, and is filled with code A level players. Low Masters NA is about plat or high gold on KR.
For reference: I play 1200-1300pt NA masters players and low GM's, but I'm low/mid diamond on KR
And I'm ~1700 Terran EU and master on KR with Zerg in sc2. It doesn't say anything.
On April 24 2012 20:22 Zergneedsfood wrote: [quote]
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
[quote]
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
[quote]
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality
lol I don't care. If people are going to come in here and act like they understand BW while their posts show the exact opposite, I have no qualms about calling them out on it.
And I'm going to admit, I'm not that informed either, but at least I know enough to not make the statement:
"BW pros who have switched over have not done well."
That statement is laugh worthy and should seriously be voted for as one of the most ignorant posts in the BW/SC2 discussion in a long time.
No-one really said that I think, no-one's arguing former BW players have done well in SC2. Doing well is different from dominating though.
It's a weird argument anyways, MKP, MC, MMA haven't become good at SC2 because they had a past in BW. They're this good because they practice hard and are talented RTS players. Writing their succes up to BW implies that BW and SC2 are the same game, SC2 just being a "light" version. Which time and time again has been proven wrong, SC2 is a completely different game and it requires a different skillset from it's players than BW does.
So no, BW players aren't going to be dominating like the flick of a switch. Flash and Jaedong aren't going to step in and win on pure talent. They're going to have to put in the time and effort to rise to the current level of competition in Starcraft 2.
- Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did'
Ok.. im going to leave ^ this ^ for you then. B.T.W. the rehabilitation that Ji-Hoon ((flash's coach)) was talking about, is the surgery he had on his wrist, that prevented him from competing in Sc/Bw for awhile.
So in Conclusion, a GIMPED Flash is at least Master level on Sc2, a GIMPED Flash is AT LEAST Master level on Sc2, let that sink in. So yea, players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu will still run the show if they switch over.. GGnore
Well to be fair, anyone who has been playing sc1 some what seriously on iccup or fish will get to master league pretty easy on macro and overall mechanics alone. Master league is nothing impressive, it's not like A on iccup, nor B. There is so many bad players in master league it's kinda sad that it's so easy to get master league. If Flash would have gotten GM during the time he was injured and played vs current SC2 progamers it would have been impressive. Don't look into it to much.
This is true for NA masters, but not for KR. Masters on KR is more like mid-high GM NA/EU, and is filled with code A level players. Low Masters NA is about plat or high gold on KR.
For reference: I play 1200-1300pt NA masters players and low GM's, but I'm low/mid diamond on KR
And I'm ~1700 Terran EU and master on KR with Zerg in sc2. It doesn't say anything.
Well, given as how 1700pts is impossible, you're full of shit. The highest anybody got last season was about 1400, and that was stephano on NA. What exactly are you trying to prove?
On April 24 2012 20:22 Zergneedsfood wrote: [quote]
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
[quote]
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
[quote]
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality
lol I don't care. If people are going to come in here and act like they understand BW while their posts show the exact opposite, I have no qualms about calling them out on it.
And I'm going to admit, I'm not that informed either, but at least I know enough to not make the statement:
"BW pros who have switched over have not done well."
That statement is laugh worthy and should seriously be voted for as one of the most ignorant posts in the BW/SC2 discussion in a long time.
No-one really said that I think, no-one's arguing former BW players have done well in SC2. Doing well is different from dominating though.
It's a weird argument anyways, MKP, MC, MMA haven't become good at SC2 because they had a past in BW. They're this good because they practice hard and are talented RTS players. Writing their succes up to BW implies that BW and SC2 are the same game, SC2 just being a "light" version. Which time and time again has been proven wrong, SC2 is a completely different game and it requires a different skillset from it's players than BW does.
So no, BW players aren't going to be dominating like the flick of a switch. Flash and Jaedong aren't going to step in and win on pure talent. They're going to have to put in the time and effort to rise to the current level of competition in Starcraft 2.
- Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did'
Ok.. im going to leave ^ this ^ for you then. B.T.W. the rehabilitation that Ji-Hoon ((flash's coach)) was talking about, is the surgery he had on his wrist, that prevented him from competing in Sc/Bw for awhile.
So in Conclusion, a GIMPED Flash is at least Master level on Sc2, a GIMPED Flash is AT LEAST Master level on Sc2, let that sink in. So yea, players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu will still run the show if they switch over.. GGnore
Well to be fair, anyone who has been playing sc1 some what seriously on iccup or fish will get to master league pretty easy on macro and overall mechanics alone. Master league is nothing impressive, it's not like A on iccup, nor B. There is so many bad players in master league it's kinda sad that it's so easy to get master league. If Flash would have gotten GM during the time he was injured and played vs current SC2 progamers it would have been impressive. Don't look into it to much.
This is true for NA masters, but not for KR. Masters on KR is more like mid-high GM NA/EU, and is filled with code A level players. Low Masters NA is about plat or high gold on KR.
For reference: I play 1200-1300pt NA masters players and low GM's, but I'm low/mid diamond on KR
And I'm ~1700 Terran EU and master on KR with Zerg in sc2. It doesn't say anything.
wait a minute. so You are a Grand Master Eu Terran ((im assuming by the 1700, since i dont honestly know, but the guy you quoted plays masters/low GM's at 1200-1300)) and you were only able to make in into ((the everybody and their mother can make it into)) masters league on KR? So Flash is better than you? Because you have probley put in some time to get to that point,years of gaming if its anything like ICCUP/fish ((assuming you have been playing near its release)), and Flash barely knew anything about the game and reached ((the everybody and their mother can make it into)) master league on KR, while being gimped.
It'd be really funny to see what kind of excuses these rabid BW fanboys come up with when Flash/Jaedong and Bisu don't just change to Sc2 and win everything.
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality
lol I don't care. If people are going to come in here and act like they understand BW while their posts show the exact opposite, I have no qualms about calling them out on it.
And I'm going to admit, I'm not that informed either, but at least I know enough to not make the statement:
"BW pros who have switched over have not done well."
That statement is laugh worthy and should seriously be voted for as one of the most ignorant posts in the BW/SC2 discussion in a long time.
No-one really said that I think, no-one's arguing former BW players have done well in SC2. Doing well is different from dominating though.
It's a weird argument anyways, MKP, MC, MMA haven't become good at SC2 because they had a past in BW. They're this good because they practice hard and are talented RTS players. Writing their succes up to BW implies that BW and SC2 are the same game, SC2 just being a "light" version. Which time and time again has been proven wrong, SC2 is a completely different game and it requires a different skillset from it's players than BW does.
So no, BW players aren't going to be dominating like the flick of a switch. Flash and Jaedong aren't going to step in and win on pure talent. They're going to have to put in the time and effort to rise to the current level of competition in Starcraft 2.
- Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did'
Ok.. im going to leave ^ this ^ for you then. B.T.W. the rehabilitation that Ji-Hoon ((flash's coach)) was talking about, is the surgery he had on his wrist, that prevented him from competing in Sc/Bw for awhile.
So in Conclusion, a GIMPED Flash is at least Master level on Sc2, a GIMPED Flash is AT LEAST Master level on Sc2, let that sink in. So yea, players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu will still run the show if they switch over.. GGnore
Well to be fair, anyone who has been playing sc1 some what seriously on iccup or fish will get to master league pretty easy on macro and overall mechanics alone. Master league is nothing impressive, it's not like A on iccup, nor B. There is so many bad players in master league it's kinda sad that it's so easy to get master league. If Flash would have gotten GM during the time he was injured and played vs current SC2 progamers it would have been impressive. Don't look into it to much.
This is true for NA masters, but not for KR. Masters on KR is more like mid-high GM NA/EU, and is filled with code A level players. Low Masters NA is about plat or high gold on KR.
For reference: I play 1200-1300pt NA masters players and low GM's, but I'm low/mid diamond on KR
And I'm ~1700 Terran EU and master on KR with Zerg in sc2. It doesn't say anything.
wait a minute. so You are a Grand Master Eu Terran ((im assuming by the 1700, since i dont honestly know, but the guy you quoted is masters at 1200-1300)) and you were only able to make in into ((the everybody and their mother can make it into)) masters league on KR? So Flash is better than you? Because you have probley put in some time to get to that point, numerous hours of gaming if its anything like ICCUP, and Flash barely knew anything about the game and reached ((the everybody and their mother can make it into)) master league on KR, while being gimped.
That's not quite how the points work - his number is completely fictitious. The point is that flash was essentially playing at a level equivalent to most north america semi-pro players while not knowing anything about the game or it's strategy, which is just absurd and terrifying.
On April 26 2012 00:03 Zergneedsfood wrote: [quote]
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality
lol I don't care. If people are going to come in here and act like they understand BW while their posts show the exact opposite, I have no qualms about calling them out on it.
And I'm going to admit, I'm not that informed either, but at least I know enough to not make the statement:
"BW pros who have switched over have not done well."
That statement is laugh worthy and should seriously be voted for as one of the most ignorant posts in the BW/SC2 discussion in a long time.
No-one really said that I think, no-one's arguing former BW players have done well in SC2. Doing well is different from dominating though.
It's a weird argument anyways, MKP, MC, MMA haven't become good at SC2 because they had a past in BW. They're this good because they practice hard and are talented RTS players. Writing their succes up to BW implies that BW and SC2 are the same game, SC2 just being a "light" version. Which time and time again has been proven wrong, SC2 is a completely different game and it requires a different skillset from it's players than BW does.
So no, BW players aren't going to be dominating like the flick of a switch. Flash and Jaedong aren't going to step in and win on pure talent. They're going to have to put in the time and effort to rise to the current level of competition in Starcraft 2.
- Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did'
Ok.. im going to leave ^ this ^ for you then. B.T.W. the rehabilitation that Ji-Hoon ((flash's coach)) was talking about, is the surgery he had on his wrist, that prevented him from competing in Sc/Bw for awhile.
So in Conclusion, a GIMPED Flash is at least Master level on Sc2, a GIMPED Flash is AT LEAST Master level on Sc2, let that sink in. So yea, players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu will still run the show if they switch over.. GGnore
Well to be fair, anyone who has been playing sc1 some what seriously on iccup or fish will get to master league pretty easy on macro and overall mechanics alone. Master league is nothing impressive, it's not like A on iccup, nor B. There is so many bad players in master league it's kinda sad that it's so easy to get master league. If Flash would have gotten GM during the time he was injured and played vs current SC2 progamers it would have been impressive. Don't look into it to much.
This is true for NA masters, but not for KR. Masters on KR is more like mid-high GM NA/EU, and is filled with code A level players. Low Masters NA is about plat or high gold on KR.
For reference: I play 1200-1300pt NA masters players and low GM's, but I'm low/mid diamond on KR
And I'm ~1700 Terran EU and master on KR with Zerg in sc2. It doesn't say anything.
wait a minute. so You are a Grand Master Eu Terran ((im assuming by the 1700, since i dont honestly know, but the guy you quoted is masters at 1200-1300)) and you were only able to make in into ((the everybody and their mother can make it into)) masters league on KR? So Flash is better than you? Because you have probley put in some time to get to that point, numerous hours of gaming if its anything like ICCUP, and Flash barely knew anything about the game and reached ((the everybody and their mother can make it into)) master league on KR, while being gimped.
That's not quite how the points work - his number is completely fictitious. The point is that flash was essentially playing at a level equivalent to most north america semi-pro players while not knowing anything about the game or it's strategy, which is just absurd and terrifying.
yes, but dont foget to mention that he was gimped while doing so ^
On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote: [quote]
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote: [quote]I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote: [quote]
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality
lol I don't care. If people are going to come in here and act like they understand BW while their posts show the exact opposite, I have no qualms about calling them out on it.
And I'm going to admit, I'm not that informed either, but at least I know enough to not make the statement:
"BW pros who have switched over have not done well."
That statement is laugh worthy and should seriously be voted for as one of the most ignorant posts in the BW/SC2 discussion in a long time.
No-one really said that I think, no-one's arguing former BW players have done well in SC2. Doing well is different from dominating though.
It's a weird argument anyways, MKP, MC, MMA haven't become good at SC2 because they had a past in BW. They're this good because they practice hard and are talented RTS players. Writing their succes up to BW implies that BW and SC2 are the same game, SC2 just being a "light" version. Which time and time again has been proven wrong, SC2 is a completely different game and it requires a different skillset from it's players than BW does.
So no, BW players aren't going to be dominating like the flick of a switch. Flash and Jaedong aren't going to step in and win on pure talent. They're going to have to put in the time and effort to rise to the current level of competition in Starcraft 2.
- Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did'
Ok.. im going to leave ^ this ^ for you then. B.T.W. the rehabilitation that Ji-Hoon ((flash's coach)) was talking about, is the surgery he had on his wrist, that prevented him from competing in Sc/Bw for awhile.
So in Conclusion, a GIMPED Flash is at least Master level on Sc2, a GIMPED Flash is AT LEAST Master level on Sc2, let that sink in. So yea, players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu will still run the show if they switch over.. GGnore
Well to be fair, anyone who has been playing sc1 some what seriously on iccup or fish will get to master league pretty easy on macro and overall mechanics alone. Master league is nothing impressive, it's not like A on iccup, nor B. There is so many bad players in master league it's kinda sad that it's so easy to get master league. If Flash would have gotten GM during the time he was injured and played vs current SC2 progamers it would have been impressive. Don't look into it to much.
Yea.. how about you dont try making a fallacious argument.. Flash was gimped, he could not play Sc/Bw because of his surgery, and he was still able to get to Masters, without knowing any Build Orders, counters this that and the other thing. The fact remains, he was Gimped ((presumably only used one hand)) didnt know anything about the game, and reached masters no problem.. he can ((if he switch's, he will)) get Code S easily((better than Grand Master)), because he will know builds, he will have actually put in training and what have you.
Sorry, but you can't just call someone out for a fallacious argument, not point out what was fallacious, then make unfounded statements about Flash's condition at the time of making Masters (mouse only, really?) and make the conclusion he will get code S upon switching.
There's a reason Kespa is keeping their progamers separate from GSL and vice versa for the new season of Proleague. The BW players would get schooled by current SC2 pro's and that would be bad for their league's image. Obviously not because they're untalented RTS players, but assuming BW players would just compete out of the gates is silly.
If you want to quote that article, there's plenty of coach banter that implies BW players aren't at the same level as current SC2 progamers in their respective game.
" ▶ How fast will the existing progamers adapt to SC2?
Fomos: When SC2 is incorporated, one of the major worries is that neither game will be at the high quality we are accustomed to. Let’s discuss.
STX Coach Lee: Right now, there is no point in comparing with GSL or other established SC2 leagues. Our job is to work hard to appeal to our fans in the best way possible.
CJ Coach Kim: I agree that we shouldn’t be comparing game level/quality with other established leagues, but fans will still compare. Then again, our fans have confidence in our progaming team system and the years of experience, so they will patiently wait for us to catch up and even exceed."
Also there's signs that BW skills don't transfer 1:1 to SC2;
" Stars Coach Lee: I first thought that the better players in SC1 would be better players in SC2, but it didn’t hold true for everyone. It’s more of a case-by-case thing. Some players are only good at SC1, some only at SC2, and some are good at both. In any case, I’m confident that practice will make up for the gaps. Honestly, some of the players that were, let’s say, terrible at SC1, are now absolutely demolishing others in SC2. We all started at the same time, but already we’re seeing skill differences. "
On April 26 2012 03:02 InoyouS2 wrote: It'd be really funny to see what kind of excuses these rabid BW fanboys come up with when Flash/Jaedong and Bisu don't just change to Sc2 and win everything.
It's going to be really funny to see what kind of excuses these rabid Sc2 fangirls come up with IF Flash/Jaedong and Bisu change to Sc2 and win everything.
On April 26 2012 03:02 InoyouS2 wrote: It'd be really funny to see what kind of excuses these rabid BW fanboys come up with when Flash/Jaedong and Bisu don't just change to Sc2 and win everything.
It's going to be really funny to see what kind of excuses these rabid Sc2 fangirls come up with when Flash/Jaedong and Bisu change to Sc2 and win everything.
Hooray for immaturity, but I bet my bottom dollar that they will not dominate in Sc2.
On April 26 2012 03:02 InoyouS2 wrote: It'd be really funny to see what kind of excuses these rabid BW fanboys come up with when Flash/Jaedong and Bisu don't just change to Sc2 and win everything.
It's going to be really funny to see what kind of excuses these rabid Sc2 fangirls come up with when Flash/Jaedong and Bisu change to Sc2 and win everything.
Hooray for immaturity, but I bet my bottom dollar that they will not dominate in Sc2.
There has been a trend of strong tactical BW players doing extremely well in sc2. I don't expect every BW pro to come over and dominate, but the truly exceptional BW players will likely carry their intelligence and strategic insight into sc2 and stomp all over the likes of zergbong etc. IMMVP is one of the better bw players to switch (at the time of the switch, so don't give me a hard time about boxer, nada, july etc), and he really mauled the hell out of everybody badly before his injury got too severe.
Edit:to be fair, even old, mechanically weaker players such as the above mentioned boxer,nada, july etc have done extremely well just because of their strategic prowess.
On April 24 2012 20:22 Zergneedsfood wrote: [quote]
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
[quote]
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
[quote]
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality
lol I don't care. If people are going to come in here and act like they understand BW while their posts show the exact opposite, I have no qualms about calling them out on it.
And I'm going to admit, I'm not that informed either, but at least I know enough to not make the statement:
"BW pros who have switched over have not done well."
That statement is laugh worthy and should seriously be voted for as one of the most ignorant posts in the BW/SC2 discussion in a long time.
No-one really said that I think, no-one's arguing former BW players have done well in SC2. Doing well is different from dominating though.
It's a weird argument anyways, MKP, MC, MMA haven't become good at SC2 because they had a past in BW. They're this good because they practice hard and are talented RTS players. Writing their succes up to BW implies that BW and SC2 are the same game, SC2 just being a "light" version. Which time and time again has been proven wrong, SC2 is a completely different game and it requires a different skillset from it's players than BW does.
So no, BW players aren't going to be dominating like the flick of a switch. Flash and Jaedong aren't going to step in and win on pure talent. They're going to have to put in the time and effort to rise to the current level of competition in Starcraft 2.
- Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did'
Ok.. im going to leave ^ this ^ for you then. B.T.W. the rehabilitation that Ji-Hoon ((flash's coach)) was talking about, is the surgery he had on his wrist, that prevented him from competing in Sc/Bw for awhile.
So in Conclusion, a GIMPED Flash is at least Master level on Sc2, a GIMPED Flash is AT LEAST Master level on Sc2, let that sink in. So yea, players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu will still run the show if they switch over.. GGnore
Well to be fair, anyone who has been playing sc1 some what seriously on iccup or fish will get to master league pretty easy on macro and overall mechanics alone. Master league is nothing impressive, it's not like A on iccup, nor B. There is so many bad players in master league it's kinda sad that it's so easy to get master league. If Flash would have gotten GM during the time he was injured and played vs current SC2 progamers it would have been impressive. Don't look into it to much.
Yea.. how about you dont try making a fallacious argument.. Flash was gimped, he could not play Sc/Bw because of his surgery, and he was still able to get to Masters, without knowing any Build Orders, counters this that and the other thing. The fact remains, he was Gimped ((presumably only used one hand)) didnt know anything about the game, and reached masters no problem.. he can ((if he switch's, he will)) get Code S easily((better than Grand Master)), because he will know builds, he will have actually put in training and what have you.
Sorry, but you can't just call someone out for a fallacious argument, not point out what was fallacious, then make unfounded statements about Flash's condition at the time of making Masters (mouse only, really?) and make the conclusion he will get code S upon switching.
There's a reason Kespa is keeping their progamers separate from GSL and vice versa for the new season of Proleague. The BW players would get schooled by current SC2 pro's and that would be bad for their league's image. Obviously not because they're untalented RTS players, but assuming BW players would just compete out of the gates is silly.
If you want to quote that article, there's plenty of coach banter that implies BW players aren't at the same level as current SC2 progamers in their respective game.
" ▶ How fast will the existing progamers adapt to SC2?
Fomos: When SC2 is incorporated, one of the major worries is that neither game will be at the high quality we are accustomed to. Let’s discuss.
STX Coach Lee: Right now, there is no point in comparing with GSL or other established SC2 leagues. Our job is to work hard to appeal to our fans in the best way possible.
CJ Coach Kim: I agree that we shouldn’t be comparing game level/quality with other established leagues, but fans will still compare. Then again, our fans have confidence in our progaming team system and the years of experience, so they will patiently wait for us to catch up and even exceed."
Also there's signs that BW skills don't transfer 1:1 to SC2;
" Stars Coach Lee: I first thought that the better players in SC1 would be better players in SC2, but it didn’t hold true for everyone. It’s more of a case-by-case thing. Some players are only good at SC1, some only at SC2, and some are good at both. In any case, I’m confident that practice will make up for the gaps. Honestly, some of the players that were, let’s say, terrible at SC1, are now absolutely demolishing others in SC2. We all started at the same time, but already we’re seeing skill differences. "
The Fallacious argument he makes, is that Masters is full of bad players, so its no big deal for a gimped player to reach it without knowing anything about the game. And Therefor Sc:Bw pro players cant compete out of the gate in Sc2.
Im honestly indifferent. I dont expect Sc:Bw pros to dominate the day they hit the scene, i look at it like the Sc:Bw coach's, its going to take time, but ill go a step further and say that they WILL exceed, just because they have the systems im place to exceed, where as the foreigne scene is just learning how to do some of the things that Sc:Bw pros have been doing for years.. But im a realist, and I do realise that its going to take a little while.. Even IF players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong do switch over, im still going to root for TSL.Polt, because im a Polt fanboy, deal with it.
Im just sick of the snobbery that Sc2 players have, and the lack of respect they show twords Sc:Bw.. You could say the same about Sc:Bw players, but hey Sc:Bw has been around 14 years, the player base has earned their right to look down upon Sc2, and show a lack of respect to the new kid on the block.. Sc2 Players havnt earned the right to look down upon Sc:Bw yet, because they havnt surpassed Sc:Bw in any aspect, other than being more popular for foreigners.
On April 26 2012 03:02 InoyouS2 wrote: It'd be really funny to see what kind of excuses these rabid BW fanboys come up with when Flash/Jaedong and Bisu don't just change to Sc2 and win everything.
It's going to be really funny to see what kind of excuses these rabid Sc2 fangirls come up with when Flash/Jaedong and Bisu change to Sc2 and win everything.
Hooray for immaturity, but I bet my bottom dollar that they will not dominate in Sc2.
There has been a trend of strong tactical BW players doing extremely well in sc2. I don't expect every BW pro to come over and dominate, but the truly exceptional BW players will likely carry their intelligence and strategic insight into sc2 and stomp all over the likes of zergbong etc. IMMVP is one of the better bw players to switch (at the time of the switch, so don't give me a hard time about boxer, nada, july etc), and he really mauled the hell out of everybody badly before his injury got too severe.
While the game was developing, the mechanics of brood war pros increased their chances of performing well at Sc2, which some did.
However at the current point in the game's development, it will take a lot more than BW experience and mechanics to compete in Sc2, especially since Sc2 is a lot more coinflippy compared with BW. But at the end of the day they are both different games, so being good at BW may help in Sc2, but it definitely won't give you a free pass by any stretch, mostly I'm just shocked at how loud some BW fans are being, I like both games for different reasons and other people should be a little more accepting of new things.
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality
lol I don't care. If people are going to come in here and act like they understand BW while their posts show the exact opposite, I have no qualms about calling them out on it.
And I'm going to admit, I'm not that informed either, but at least I know enough to not make the statement:
"BW pros who have switched over have not done well."
That statement is laugh worthy and should seriously be voted for as one of the most ignorant posts in the BW/SC2 discussion in a long time.
No-one really said that I think, no-one's arguing former BW players have done well in SC2. Doing well is different from dominating though.
It's a weird argument anyways, MKP, MC, MMA haven't become good at SC2 because they had a past in BW. They're this good because they practice hard and are talented RTS players. Writing their succes up to BW implies that BW and SC2 are the same game, SC2 just being a "light" version. Which time and time again has been proven wrong, SC2 is a completely different game and it requires a different skillset from it's players than BW does.
So no, BW players aren't going to be dominating like the flick of a switch. Flash and Jaedong aren't going to step in and win on pure talent. They're going to have to put in the time and effort to rise to the current level of competition in Starcraft 2.
- Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did'
Ok.. im going to leave ^ this ^ for you then. B.T.W. the rehabilitation that Ji-Hoon ((flash's coach)) was talking about, is the surgery he had on his wrist, that prevented him from competing in Sc/Bw for awhile.
So in Conclusion, a GIMPED Flash is at least Master level on Sc2, a GIMPED Flash is AT LEAST Master level on Sc2, let that sink in. So yea, players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu will still run the show if they switch over.. GGnore
Well to be fair, anyone who has been playing sc1 some what seriously on iccup or fish will get to master league pretty easy on macro and overall mechanics alone. Master league is nothing impressive, it's not like A on iccup, nor B. There is so many bad players in master league it's kinda sad that it's so easy to get master league. If Flash would have gotten GM during the time he was injured and played vs current SC2 progamers it would have been impressive. Don't look into it to much.
Yea.. how about you dont try making a fallacious argument.. Flash was gimped, he could not play Sc/Bw because of his surgery, and he was still able to get to Masters, without knowing any Build Orders, counters this that and the other thing. The fact remains, he was Gimped ((presumably only used one hand)) didnt know anything about the game, and reached masters no problem.. he can ((if he switch's, he will)) get Code S easily((better than Grand Master)), because he will know builds, he will have actually put in training and what have you.
Sorry, but you can't just call someone out for a fallacious argument, not point out what was fallacious, then make unfounded statements about Flash's condition at the time of making Masters (mouse only, really?) and make the conclusion he will get code S upon switching.
There's a reason Kespa is keeping their progamers separate from GSL and vice versa for the new season of Proleague. The BW players would get schooled by current SC2 pro's and that would be bad for their league's image. Obviously not because they're untalented RTS players, but assuming BW players would just compete out of the gates is silly.
If you want to quote that article, there's plenty of coach banter that implies BW players aren't at the same level as current SC2 progamers in their respective game.
" ▶ How fast will the existing progamers adapt to SC2?
Fomos: When SC2 is incorporated, one of the major worries is that neither game will be at the high quality we are accustomed to. Let’s discuss.
STX Coach Lee: Right now, there is no point in comparing with GSL or other established SC2 leagues. Our job is to work hard to appeal to our fans in the best way possible.
CJ Coach Kim: I agree that we shouldn’t be comparing game level/quality with other established leagues, but fans will still compare. Then again, our fans have confidence in our progaming team system and the years of experience, so they will patiently wait for us to catch up and even exceed."
Also there's signs that BW skills don't transfer 1:1 to SC2;
" Stars Coach Lee: I first thought that the better players in SC1 would be better players in SC2, but it didn’t hold true for everyone. It’s more of a case-by-case thing. Some players are only good at SC1, some only at SC2, and some are good at both. In any case, I’m confident that practice will make up for the gaps. Honestly, some of the players that were, let’s say, terrible at SC1, are now absolutely demolishing others in SC2. We all started at the same time, but already we’re seeing skill differences. "
The Fallacious argument he makes, is that Masters is full of bad players, so its no big deal for a gimped player to reach it without knowing anything about the game. And Therefor Sc:Bw pro players cant compete out of the gate in Sc2.
Im honestly indifferent. I dont expect Sc:Bw pros to dominate the day they hit the scene, i look at it like the Sc:Bw coach's, its going to take time, but ill go a step further and say that they WILL exceed, just because they have the systems im place to exceed, where as the foreigne scene is just learning how to do some of the things that Sc:Bw pros have been doing for years.. But im a realist, and I do realise that its going to take a little while.. Even IF players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong do switch over, im still going to root for TSL.Polt, because im a Polt fanboy, deal with it.
Im just sick of the snobbery that Sc2 players have, and the lack of respect they show twords Sc:Bw.. You could say the same about Sc:Bw players, but hey Sc:Bw has been around 14 years, the player base has earned their right to look down upon Sc2, and show a lack of respect to the new kid on the block.. Sc2 Players havnt earned the right to look down upon Sc:Bw yet, because they havnt surpassed Sc:Bw in any aspect, other than being more popular to for foreigners.
Dumbest reason for being overly aggressive and ignorant EVER. For starters most Sc2 pro players and fans transferred over from BW, and still enjoy watching both (I am, and mostly due to the much more regular tournaments in Sc2 as well).
Please don't try and make the BW fanbase look so bad, not everyone has the same views as you do.
On April 26 2012 03:02 InoyouS2 wrote: It'd be really funny to see what kind of excuses these rabid BW fanboys come up with when Flash/Jaedong and Bisu don't just change to Sc2 and win everything.
It's going to be really funny to see what kind of excuses these rabid Sc2 fangirls come up with when Flash/Jaedong and Bisu change to Sc2 and win everything.
Hooray for immaturity, but I bet my bottom dollar that they will not dominate in Sc2.
There has been a trend of strong tactical BW players doing extremely well in sc2. I don't expect every BW pro to come over and dominate, but the truly exceptional BW players will likely carry their intelligence and strategic insight into sc2 and stomp all over the likes of zergbong etc. IMMVP is one of the better bw players to switch (at the time of the switch, so don't give me a hard time about boxer, nada, july etc), and he really mauled the hell out of everybody badly before his injury got too severe.
While the game was developing, the mechanics of brood war pros increased their chances of performing well at Sc2, which some did.
However at the current point in the game's development, it will take a lot more than BW experience and mechanics to compete in Sc2, especially since Sc2 is a lot more coinflippy compared with BW. But at the end of the day they are both different games, so being good at BW may help in Sc2, but it definitely won't give you a free pass by any stretch, mostly I'm just shocked at how loud some BW fans are being, I like both games for different reasons and other people should be a little more accepting of new things.
I am tired of this argument.. Would you say Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 are two different games? League of Legends and StarCraft 2 are two different games.. StarCraft/BroodWar and StarCraft2 are not different games, they are the same game, they just play a little differently.
On April 26 2012 03:02 InoyouS2 wrote: It'd be really funny to see what kind of excuses these rabid BW fanboys come up with when Flash/Jaedong and Bisu don't just change to Sc2 and win everything.
It's going to be really funny to see what kind of excuses these rabid Sc2 fangirls come up with when Flash/Jaedong and Bisu change to Sc2 and win everything.
Hooray for immaturity, but I bet my bottom dollar that they will not dominate in Sc2.
There has been a trend of strong tactical BW players doing extremely well in sc2. I don't expect every BW pro to come over and dominate, but the truly exceptional BW players will likely carry their intelligence and strategic insight into sc2 and stomp all over the likes of zergbong etc. IMMVP is one of the better bw players to switch (at the time of the switch, so don't give me a hard time about boxer, nada, july etc), and he really mauled the hell out of everybody badly before his injury got too severe.
While the game was developing, the mechanics of brood war pros increased their chances of performing well at Sc2, which some did.
However at the current point in the game's development, it will take a lot more than BW experience and mechanics to compete in Sc2, especially since Sc2 is a lot more coinflippy compared with BW. But at the end of the day they are both different games, so being good at BW may help in Sc2, but it definitely won't give you a free pass by any stretch, mostly I'm just shocked at how loud some BW fans are being, I like both games for different reasons and other people should be a little more accepting of new things.
I am tired of this argument.. League of Legends and StarCraft 2 are two different games.. StarCraft/BroodWar and StarCraft2 are not different games, they are the same game, they just play a little differently.
No, they are different games; saying Starcraft 2 is the same as Starcraft:BW is absolutely stupid.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote: [quote]
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality
lol I don't care. If people are going to come in here and act like they understand BW while their posts show the exact opposite, I have no qualms about calling them out on it.
And I'm going to admit, I'm not that informed either, but at least I know enough to not make the statement:
"BW pros who have switched over have not done well."
That statement is laugh worthy and should seriously be voted for as one of the most ignorant posts in the BW/SC2 discussion in a long time.
No-one really said that I think, no-one's arguing former BW players have done well in SC2. Doing well is different from dominating though.
It's a weird argument anyways, MKP, MC, MMA haven't become good at SC2 because they had a past in BW. They're this good because they practice hard and are talented RTS players. Writing their succes up to BW implies that BW and SC2 are the same game, SC2 just being a "light" version. Which time and time again has been proven wrong, SC2 is a completely different game and it requires a different skillset from it's players than BW does.
So no, BW players aren't going to be dominating like the flick of a switch. Flash and Jaedong aren't going to step in and win on pure talent. They're going to have to put in the time and effort to rise to the current level of competition in Starcraft 2.
If by time and effort, you mean Flash getting to Masters during wrist surgery without even knowing what the new units did, then sure, I guess they'll take "time and effort".
Also, I agree that SC2 is a completely different game, because I don't want to associate it with BW in any sense. But it's not like the two are different mechanically. What mechanics in SC2 actually take effort to learn if you're a BW player? There's not a single one I can name where BW mechanics actually makes it harder.
If anything, a pro player like Bisu or Flash would just be staring at the user interface and laughing while they say "What? And I can 1a now too? lolololololol"
Warpgates and injects can definitely take time getting used to.
On April 26 2012 03:02 InoyouS2 wrote: It'd be really funny to see what kind of excuses these rabid BW fanboys come up with when Flash/Jaedong and Bisu don't just change to Sc2 and win everything.
It's going to be really funny to see what kind of excuses these rabid Sc2 fangirls come up with when Flash/Jaedong and Bisu change to Sc2 and win everything.
Hooray for immaturity, but I bet my bottom dollar that they will not dominate in Sc2.
There has been a trend of strong tactical BW players doing extremely well in sc2. I don't expect every BW pro to come over and dominate, but the truly exceptional BW players will likely carry their intelligence and strategic insight into sc2 and stomp all over the likes of zergbong etc. IMMVP is one of the better bw players to switch (at the time of the switch, so don't give me a hard time about boxer, nada, july etc), and he really mauled the hell out of everybody badly before his injury got too severe.
While the game was developing, the mechanics of brood war pros increased their chances of performing well at Sc2, which some did.
However at the current point in the game's development, it will take a lot more than BW experience and mechanics to compete in Sc2, especially since Sc2 is a lot more coinflippy compared with BW. But at the end of the day they are both different games, so being good at BW may help in Sc2, but it definitely won't give you a free pass by any stretch, mostly I'm just shocked at how loud some BW fans are being, I like both games for different reasons and other people should be a little more accepting of new things.
I am tired of this argument.. League of Legends and StarCraft 2 are two different games.. StarCraft/BroodWar and StarCraft2 are not different games, they are the same game, they just play a little differently.
No, they are different games; saying Starcraft 2 is the same as Starcraft:BW is absolutely stupid.
Prove your point please. Both have 3 races, the 3 races preform the same in each game ((besides Protoss and Terran basically being swapped in Sc2)), they both require you manage an economy while building infrastructer//an army. They both require you to use tactical desicions to achive goals. They both require scouting, and have tech paths for different situations that you scout. I can go on.. They are both the same game, they just play a little differently.. Blizzard would not put the title StarCraft 2 onto a game that was different than StarCraft/Brood War, because not even they are that dumb..
On April 26 2012 03:02 InoyouS2 wrote: It'd be really funny to see what kind of excuses these rabid BW fanboys come up with when Flash/Jaedong and Bisu don't just change to Sc2 and win everything.
It's going to be really funny to see what kind of excuses these rabid Sc2 fangirls come up with when Flash/Jaedong and Bisu change to Sc2 and win everything.
Hooray for immaturity, but I bet my bottom dollar that they will not dominate in Sc2.
There has been a trend of strong tactical BW players doing extremely well in sc2. I don't expect every BW pro to come over and dominate, but the truly exceptional BW players will likely carry their intelligence and strategic insight into sc2 and stomp all over the likes of zergbong etc. IMMVP is one of the better bw players to switch (at the time of the switch, so don't give me a hard time about boxer, nada, july etc), and he really mauled the hell out of everybody badly before his injury got too severe.
While the game was developing, the mechanics of brood war pros increased their chances of performing well at Sc2, which some did.
However at the current point in the game's development, it will take a lot more than BW experience and mechanics to compete in Sc2, especially since Sc2 is a lot more coinflippy compared with BW. But at the end of the day they are both different games, so being good at BW may help in Sc2, but it definitely won't give you a free pass by any stretch, mostly I'm just shocked at how loud some BW fans are being, I like both games for different reasons and other people should be a little more accepting of new things.
I am tired of this argument.. League of Legends and StarCraft 2 are two different games.. StarCraft/BroodWar and StarCraft2 are not different games, they are the same game, they just play a little differently.
No, they are different games; saying Starcraft 2 is the same as Starcraft:BW is absolutely stupid.
Prove your point please. Both have 3 races, the 3 races preform the same in each game ((besides Protoss and Terran basically being swapped in Sc2)), they both require you manage an economy while building an army. They both require you to use tactical desicions to achive goals. They both require scouting, and have tech paths for different situations that you scout. I can go on.. They are both the same game, they just play a little differently..
I refuse to believe a BW fanboy would post something like this, I'll just back out now and let someone else deal with you :D.
On April 26 2012 03:02 InoyouS2 wrote: It'd be really funny to see what kind of excuses these rabid BW fanboys come up with when Flash/Jaedong and Bisu don't just change to Sc2 and win everything.
It's going to be really funny to see what kind of excuses these rabid Sc2 fangirls come up with when Flash/Jaedong and Bisu change to Sc2 and win everything.
Hooray for immaturity, but I bet my bottom dollar that they will not dominate in Sc2.
There has been a trend of strong tactical BW players doing extremely well in sc2. I don't expect every BW pro to come over and dominate, but the truly exceptional BW players will likely carry their intelligence and strategic insight into sc2 and stomp all over the likes of zergbong etc. IMMVP is one of the better bw players to switch (at the time of the switch, so don't give me a hard time about boxer, nada, july etc), and he really mauled the hell out of everybody badly before his injury got too severe.
While the game was developing, the mechanics of brood war pros increased their chances of performing well at Sc2, which some did.
However at the current point in the game's development, it will take a lot more than BW experience and mechanics to compete in Sc2, especially since Sc2 is a lot more coinflippy compared with BW. But at the end of the day they are both different games, so being good at BW may help in Sc2, but it definitely won't give you a free pass by any stretch, mostly I'm just shocked at how loud some BW fans are being, I like both games for different reasons and other people should be a little more accepting of new things.
I am tired of this argument.. League of Legends and StarCraft 2 are two different games.. StarCraft/BroodWar and StarCraft2 are not different games, they are the same game, they just play a little differently.
No, they are different games; saying Starcraft 2 is the same as Starcraft:BW is absolutely stupid.
Prove your point please. Both have 3 races, the 3 races preform the same in each game ((besides Protoss and Terran basically being swapped in Sc2)), they both require you manage an economy while building infrastructer//an army. They both require you to use tactical desicions to achive goals. They both require scouting, and have tech paths for different situations that you scout. I can go on.. They are both the same game, they just play a little differently.. Blizzard would not put the title StarCraft 2 onto a game that was different than StarCraft/Brood War, because not even they are that dumb..
That's a terrible argument. They are completely different games, just as Guild Wars 1 and 2 are indeed different games. The mechanics are different, the pathing is different, the units are different, the economy works differently, the controls are different.
As you said it yourself, only apparently one race works the same, except Zerg in BW and SC2 aren't even remotely simialr, with the exception of "knowing when to drone."
Your points are interchangeable with nearly every RTS in existence. Every RTS requires you to manage an economy while building an infrastructure. All RTS games require you to use tactical decisions to achieve goals. All RTS games require scouting, and have tech paths for different situations that you scout.
Please go on, because you haven't given a single valid point.
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality
lol I don't care. If people are going to come in here and act like they understand BW while their posts show the exact opposite, I have no qualms about calling them out on it.
And I'm going to admit, I'm not that informed either, but at least I know enough to not make the statement:
"BW pros who have switched over have not done well."
That statement is laugh worthy and should seriously be voted for as one of the most ignorant posts in the BW/SC2 discussion in a long time.
No-one really said that I think, no-one's arguing former BW players have done well in SC2. Doing well is different from dominating though.
It's a weird argument anyways, MKP, MC, MMA haven't become good at SC2 because they had a past in BW. They're this good because they practice hard and are talented RTS players. Writing their succes up to BW implies that BW and SC2 are the same game, SC2 just being a "light" version. Which time and time again has been proven wrong, SC2 is a completely different game and it requires a different skillset from it's players than BW does.
So no, BW players aren't going to be dominating like the flick of a switch. Flash and Jaedong aren't going to step in and win on pure talent. They're going to have to put in the time and effort to rise to the current level of competition in Starcraft 2.
- Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did'
Ok.. im going to leave ^ this ^ for you then. B.T.W. the rehabilitation that Ji-Hoon ((flash's coach)) was talking about, is the surgery he had on his wrist, that prevented him from competing in Sc/Bw for awhile.
So in Conclusion, a GIMPED Flash is at least Master level on Sc2, a GIMPED Flash is AT LEAST Master level on Sc2, let that sink in. So yea, players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu will still run the show if they switch over.. GGnore
Well to be fair, anyone who has been playing sc1 some what seriously on iccup or fish will get to master league pretty easy on macro and overall mechanics alone. Master league is nothing impressive, it's not like A on iccup, nor B. There is so many bad players in master league it's kinda sad that it's so easy to get master league. If Flash would have gotten GM during the time he was injured and played vs current SC2 progamers it would have been impressive. Don't look into it to much.
This is true for NA masters, but not for KR. Masters on KR is more like mid-high GM NA/EU, and is filled with code A level players. Low Masters NA is about plat or high gold on KR.
For reference: I play 1200-1300pt NA masters players and low GM's, but I'm low/mid diamond on KR
And I'm ~1700 Terran EU and master on KR with Zerg in sc2. It doesn't say anything.
Well, given as how 1700pts is impossible, you're full of shit. The highest anybody got last season was about 1400, and that was stephano on NA. What exactly are you trying to prove?
I didn't play more than say 40-50 games on EU the last two seasons. When I played "serious" the seasons were longer and I got around 1700 at the end of the seasons, therefor I said I was 1700pt since that was my cap. I guess you can't count like that anymore then when the seasons are like 1 month and you can't get that much point anymore. My bad I guess.
Why do people keep posting "Flash didn't know what the units did" like it's some kind of fact. One it's a translation, so there will be translation loss, especially as it's coming from an Asian language. Two, judging by the tone of the rest of the conversation, it seems like they were joking around bullshitting each other.
OMGz Flash is so good he didn't know what he was doing and he still won trololol...
Yeah because I'm sure it would take someone who is that good at RTS long to figure out what the Maruader did...
On April 26 2012 00:03 Zergneedsfood wrote: [quote]
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality
lol I don't care. If people are going to come in here and act like they understand BW while their posts show the exact opposite, I have no qualms about calling them out on it.
And I'm going to admit, I'm not that informed either, but at least I know enough to not make the statement:
"BW pros who have switched over have not done well."
That statement is laugh worthy and should seriously be voted for as one of the most ignorant posts in the BW/SC2 discussion in a long time.
No-one really said that I think, no-one's arguing former BW players have done well in SC2. Doing well is different from dominating though.
It's a weird argument anyways, MKP, MC, MMA haven't become good at SC2 because they had a past in BW. They're this good because they practice hard and are talented RTS players. Writing their succes up to BW implies that BW and SC2 are the same game, SC2 just being a "light" version. Which time and time again has been proven wrong, SC2 is a completely different game and it requires a different skillset from it's players than BW does.
So no, BW players aren't going to be dominating like the flick of a switch. Flash and Jaedong aren't going to step in and win on pure talent. They're going to have to put in the time and effort to rise to the current level of competition in Starcraft 2.
- Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did'
Ok.. im going to leave ^ this ^ for you then. B.T.W. the rehabilitation that Ji-Hoon ((flash's coach)) was talking about, is the surgery he had on his wrist, that prevented him from competing in Sc/Bw for awhile.
So in Conclusion, a GIMPED Flash is at least Master level on Sc2, a GIMPED Flash is AT LEAST Master level on Sc2, let that sink in. So yea, players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu will still run the show if they switch over.. GGnore
Well to be fair, anyone who has been playing sc1 some what seriously on iccup or fish will get to master league pretty easy on macro and overall mechanics alone. Master league is nothing impressive, it's not like A on iccup, nor B. There is so many bad players in master league it's kinda sad that it's so easy to get master league. If Flash would have gotten GM during the time he was injured and played vs current SC2 progamers it would have been impressive. Don't look into it to much.
This is true for NA masters, but not for KR. Masters on KR is more like mid-high GM NA/EU, and is filled with code A level players. Low Masters NA is about plat or high gold on KR.
For reference: I play 1200-1300pt NA masters players and low GM's, but I'm low/mid diamond on KR
And I'm ~1700 Terran EU and master on KR with Zerg in sc2. It doesn't say anything.
Well, given as how 1700pts is impossible, you're full of shit. The highest anybody got last season was about 1400, and that was stephano on NA. What exactly are you trying to prove?
I didn't play more than say 40-50 games on EU the last two seasons. When I played "serious" the seasons were longer and I got around 1700 at the end of the seasons, therefor I said I was 1700pt since that was my cap. I guess you can't count like that anymore then when the seasons are like 1 month and you can't get that much point anymore. My bad I guess.
Pretty sure the highest ranked players across every single server hasn't hit 1700 pts in at least 3 seasons (if you include this one). They've always capped out at around 1400, MAYBE the absolute top hit 1500ish.
Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality
lol I don't care. If people are going to come in here and act like they understand BW while their posts show the exact opposite, I have no qualms about calling them out on it.
And I'm going to admit, I'm not that informed either, but at least I know enough to not make the statement:
"BW pros who have switched over have not done well."
That statement is laugh worthy and should seriously be voted for as one of the most ignorant posts in the BW/SC2 discussion in a long time.
No-one really said that I think, no-one's arguing former BW players have done well in SC2. Doing well is different from dominating though.
It's a weird argument anyways, MKP, MC, MMA haven't become good at SC2 because they had a past in BW. They're this good because they practice hard and are talented RTS players. Writing their succes up to BW implies that BW and SC2 are the same game, SC2 just being a "light" version. Which time and time again has been proven wrong, SC2 is a completely different game and it requires a different skillset from it's players than BW does.
So no, BW players aren't going to be dominating like the flick of a switch. Flash and Jaedong aren't going to step in and win on pure talent. They're going to have to put in the time and effort to rise to the current level of competition in Starcraft 2.
- Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did'
Ok.. im going to leave ^ this ^ for you then. B.T.W. the rehabilitation that Ji-Hoon ((flash's coach)) was talking about, is the surgery he had on his wrist, that prevented him from competing in Sc/Bw for awhile.
So in Conclusion, a GIMPED Flash is at least Master level on Sc2, a GIMPED Flash is AT LEAST Master level on Sc2, let that sink in. So yea, players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu will still run the show if they switch over.. GGnore
Well to be fair, anyone who has been playing sc1 some what seriously on iccup or fish will get to master league pretty easy on macro and overall mechanics alone. Master league is nothing impressive, it's not like A on iccup, nor B. There is so many bad players in master league it's kinda sad that it's so easy to get master league. If Flash would have gotten GM during the time he was injured and played vs current SC2 progamers it would have been impressive. Don't look into it to much.
This is true for NA masters, but not for KR. Masters on KR is more like mid-high GM NA/EU, and is filled with code A level players. Low Masters NA is about plat or high gold on KR.
For reference: I play 1200-1300pt NA masters players and low GM's, but I'm low/mid diamond on KR
And I'm ~1700 Terran EU and master on KR with Zerg in sc2. It doesn't say anything.
Well, given as how 1700pts is impossible, you're full of shit. The highest anybody got last season was about 1400, and that was stephano on NA. What exactly are you trying to prove?
I didn't play more than say 40-50 games on EU the last two seasons. When I played "serious" the seasons were longer and I got around 1700 at the end of the seasons, therefor I said I was 1700pt since that was my cap. I guess you can't count like that anymore then when the seasons are like 1 month and you can't get that much point anymore. My bad I guess.
Pretty sure the highest ranked players across every single server hasn't hit 1700 pts in at least 3 seasons (if you include this one). They've always capped out at around 1400, MAYBE the absolute top hit 1500ish.
I got a bit more than 1500 3 seasons ago and was still master.
On April 26 2012 03:02 InoyouS2 wrote: It'd be really funny to see what kind of excuses these rabid BW fanboys come up with when Flash/Jaedong and Bisu don't just change to Sc2 and win everything.
It's going to be really funny to see what kind of excuses these rabid Sc2 fangirls come up with when Flash/Jaedong and Bisu change to Sc2 and win everything.
Hooray for immaturity, but I bet my bottom dollar that they will not dominate in Sc2.
There has been a trend of strong tactical BW players doing extremely well in sc2. I don't expect every BW pro to come over and dominate, but the truly exceptional BW players will likely carry their intelligence and strategic insight into sc2 and stomp all over the likes of zergbong etc. IMMVP is one of the better bw players to switch (at the time of the switch, so don't give me a hard time about boxer, nada, july etc), and he really mauled the hell out of everybody badly before his injury got too severe.
While the game was developing, the mechanics of brood war pros increased their chances of performing well at Sc2, which some did.
However at the current point in the game's development, it will take a lot more than BW experience and mechanics to compete in Sc2, especially since Sc2 is a lot more coinflippy compared with BW. But at the end of the day they are both different games, so being good at BW may help in Sc2, but it definitely won't give you a free pass by any stretch, mostly I'm just shocked at how loud some BW fans are being, I like both games for different reasons and other people should be a little more accepting of new things.
I am tired of this argument.. League of Legends and StarCraft 2 are two different games.. StarCraft/BroodWar and StarCraft2 are not different games, they are the same game, they just play a little differently.
No, they are different games; saying Starcraft 2 is the same as Starcraft:BW is absolutely stupid.
Prove your point please. Both have 3 races, the 3 races preform the same in each game ((besides Protoss and Terran basically being swapped in Sc2)), they both require you manage an economy while building infrastructer//an army. They both require you to use tactical desicions to achive goals. They both require scouting, and have tech paths for different situations that you scout. I can go on.. They are both the same game, they just play a little differently.. Blizzard would not put the title StarCraft 2 onto a game that was different than StarCraft/Brood War, because not even they are that dumb..
That's a terrible argument. They are completely different games, just as Guild Wars 1 and 2 are indeed different games. The mechanics are different, the pathing is different, the units are different, the economy works differently, the controls are different.
As you said it yourself, only apparently one race works the same, except Zerg in BW and SC2 aren't even remotely simialr, with the exception of "knowing when to drone."
Your points are interchangeable with nearly every RTS in existence. Every RTS requires you to manage an economy while building an infrastructure. All RTS games require you to use tactical decisions to achieve goals. All RTS games require scouting, and have tech paths for different situations that you scout.
Please go on, because you haven't given a single valid point.
Visually, they are differnet Mechanically they differ ((not different, just differ)) Pathing they differ ((not different, just differ)) Unit wise they are different Economicly they are not that different ((Sc2 is just faster, but its no different)) Control Wise they differ ((Sc2 the controls are alot easier, not a insult, just fact.. The keys are basically all on the left side of the keyboard, Sc:Bw they are all over the keyboard))
Your comment about zerg is wrong.. They preform the same in each game, Swarm your opponent, and try making cost effective trades.. Because its about out numbering with droves of weak units, instead of having a critical mass of strong units. The 3 races still preform the same((protoss and terran have just been swapped)) You have one very aggressive race((Sc2 Terran, Sc:Bw Protoss)), you have one turtley race((Sc2 Protoss, Sc:Bw Terran)), and one race that expands like crazy ((Sc2 & Sc:Bw Zerg))
If they were trully different games, it would not be called StarCraft 2, because that was the most anticipated game EVER (( I, personally, waited 12 years for Sc2 to be released)).. It would be marketing suicide to call a game StarCraft 2, and have it be different than StarCraft/BrooWar. Blizzard is not dumb, and wouldnt make that kind of mistake.. StarCraft/BroodWar and StarCraft 2 DIFFER, yes, but they ARE NOT different.. Sorry to burst your bubble..
*note - there is a big difference when using the words Differ and Different. ex. a pitbull and a boxer DIFFER, a pitbull and a hamster are DIFFERENT*
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote: [quote]
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality
lol I don't care. If people are going to come in here and act like they understand BW while their posts show the exact opposite, I have no qualms about calling them out on it.
And I'm going to admit, I'm not that informed either, but at least I know enough to not make the statement:
"BW pros who have switched over have not done well."
That statement is laugh worthy and should seriously be voted for as one of the most ignorant posts in the BW/SC2 discussion in a long time.
No-one really said that I think, no-one's arguing former BW players have done well in SC2. Doing well is different from dominating though.
It's a weird argument anyways, MKP, MC, MMA haven't become good at SC2 because they had a past in BW. They're this good because they practice hard and are talented RTS players. Writing their succes up to BW implies that BW and SC2 are the same game, SC2 just being a "light" version. Which time and time again has been proven wrong, SC2 is a completely different game and it requires a different skillset from it's players than BW does.
So no, BW players aren't going to be dominating like the flick of a switch. Flash and Jaedong aren't going to step in and win on pure talent. They're going to have to put in the time and effort to rise to the current level of competition in Starcraft 2.
If by time and effort, you mean Flash getting to Masters during wrist surgery without even knowing what the new units did, then sure, I guess they'll take "time and effort".
Also, I agree that SC2 is a completely different game, because I don't want to associate it with BW in any sense. But it's not like the two are different mechanically. What mechanics in SC2 actually take effort to learn if you're a BW player? There's not a single one I can name where BW mechanics actually makes it harder.
If anything, a pro player like Bisu or Flash would just be staring at the user interface and laughing while they say "What? And I can 1a now too? lolololololol"
Warpgates and injects can definitely take time getting used to.
Hmmm....No, you're right. That one I definitely didn't consider. Good point. My mistake.
On April 26 2012 00:55 Zergneedsfood wrote: [quote]
lol I don't care. If people are going to come in here and act like they understand BW while their posts show the exact opposite, I have no qualms about calling them out on it.
And I'm going to admit, I'm not that informed either, but at least I know enough to not make the statement:
"BW pros who have switched over have not done well."
That statement is laugh worthy and should seriously be voted for as one of the most ignorant posts in the BW/SC2 discussion in a long time.
No-one really said that I think, no-one's arguing former BW players have done well in SC2. Doing well is different from dominating though.
It's a weird argument anyways, MKP, MC, MMA haven't become good at SC2 because they had a past in BW. They're this good because they practice hard and are talented RTS players. Writing their succes up to BW implies that BW and SC2 are the same game, SC2 just being a "light" version. Which time and time again has been proven wrong, SC2 is a completely different game and it requires a different skillset from it's players than BW does.
So no, BW players aren't going to be dominating like the flick of a switch. Flash and Jaedong aren't going to step in and win on pure talent. They're going to have to put in the time and effort to rise to the current level of competition in Starcraft 2.
- Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did'
Ok.. im going to leave ^ this ^ for you then. B.T.W. the rehabilitation that Ji-Hoon ((flash's coach)) was talking about, is the surgery he had on his wrist, that prevented him from competing in Sc/Bw for awhile.
So in Conclusion, a GIMPED Flash is at least Master level on Sc2, a GIMPED Flash is AT LEAST Master level on Sc2, let that sink in. So yea, players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu will still run the show if they switch over.. GGnore
Well to be fair, anyone who has been playing sc1 some what seriously on iccup or fish will get to master league pretty easy on macro and overall mechanics alone. Master league is nothing impressive, it's not like A on iccup, nor B. There is so many bad players in master league it's kinda sad that it's so easy to get master league. If Flash would have gotten GM during the time he was injured and played vs current SC2 progamers it would have been impressive. Don't look into it to much.
This is true for NA masters, but not for KR. Masters on KR is more like mid-high GM NA/EU, and is filled with code A level players. Low Masters NA is about plat or high gold on KR.
For reference: I play 1200-1300pt NA masters players and low GM's, but I'm low/mid diamond on KR
And I'm ~1700 Terran EU and master on KR with Zerg in sc2. It doesn't say anything.
Well, given as how 1700pts is impossible, you're full of shit. The highest anybody got last season was about 1400, and that was stephano on NA. What exactly are you trying to prove?
I didn't play more than say 40-50 games on EU the last two seasons. When I played "serious" the seasons were longer and I got around 1700 at the end of the seasons, therefor I said I was 1700pt since that was my cap. I guess you can't count like that anymore then when the seasons are like 1 month and you can't get that much point anymore. My bad I guess.
Pretty sure the highest ranked players across every single server hasn't hit 1700 pts in at least 3 seasons (if you include this one). They've always capped out at around 1400, MAYBE the absolute top hit 1500ish.
I got a bit more than 1500 3 seasons ago and was still master.
Ok? I mentioned "at least 3 seasons." What's your point? You said 1700 point Terran.
On April 26 2012 03:02 InoyouS2 wrote: It'd be really funny to see what kind of excuses these rabid BW fanboys come up with when Flash/Jaedong and Bisu don't just change to Sc2 and win everything.
It's going to be really funny to see what kind of excuses these rabid Sc2 fangirls come up with when Flash/Jaedong and Bisu change to Sc2 and win everything.
Hooray for immaturity, but I bet my bottom dollar that they will not dominate in Sc2.
There has been a trend of strong tactical BW players doing extremely well in sc2. I don't expect every BW pro to come over and dominate, but the truly exceptional BW players will likely carry their intelligence and strategic insight into sc2 and stomp all over the likes of zergbong etc. IMMVP is one of the better bw players to switch (at the time of the switch, so don't give me a hard time about boxer, nada, july etc), and he really mauled the hell out of everybody badly before his injury got too severe.
While the game was developing, the mechanics of brood war pros increased their chances of performing well at Sc2, which some did.
However at the current point in the game's development, it will take a lot more than BW experience and mechanics to compete in Sc2, especially since Sc2 is a lot more coinflippy compared with BW. But at the end of the day they are both different games, so being good at BW may help in Sc2, but it definitely won't give you a free pass by any stretch, mostly I'm just shocked at how loud some BW fans are being, I like both games for different reasons and other people should be a little more accepting of new things.
I am tired of this argument.. League of Legends and StarCraft 2 are two different games.. StarCraft/BroodWar and StarCraft2 are not different games, they are the same game, they just play a little differently.
No, they are different games; saying Starcraft 2 is the same as Starcraft:BW is absolutely stupid.
Prove your point please. Both have 3 races, the 3 races preform the same in each game ((besides Protoss and Terran basically being swapped in Sc2)), they both require you manage an economy while building infrastructer//an army. They both require you to use tactical desicions to achive goals. They both require scouting, and have tech paths for different situations that you scout. I can go on.. They are both the same game, they just play a little differently.. Blizzard would not put the title StarCraft 2 onto a game that was different than StarCraft/Brood War, because not even they are that dumb..
That's a terrible argument. They are completely different games, just as Guild Wars 1 and 2 are indeed different games. The mechanics are different, the pathing is different, the units are different, the economy works differently, the controls are different.
As you said it yourself, only apparently one race works the same, except Zerg in BW and SC2 aren't even remotely simialr, with the exception of "knowing when to drone."
Your points are interchangeable with nearly every RTS in existence. Every RTS requires you to manage an economy while building an infrastructure. All RTS games require you to use tactical decisions to achieve goals. All RTS games require scouting, and have tech paths for different situations that you scout.
Please go on, because you haven't given a single valid point.
Visually, they are differnet Mechanically they differ ((not different, just differ)) Pathing they differ ((not different, just differ)) Unit wise they are different Economicly they are not that different ((Sc2 is just faster, but its no different)) Control Wise they differ ((Sc2 the controls are alot easier, not a insult, just fact.. The keys are basically all on the left side of the keyboard, Sc:Bw they are all over the keyboard))
Your comment about zerg is wrong.. They preform the same in each game, Swarm your opponent, and try making cost effective trades.. Because its about out numbering with droves of weak units, instead of having a critical mass of strong units. The 3 races still preform the same((protoss and terran have just been swapped)) You have one very aggressive race((Sc2 Terran, Sc:Bw Protoss)), you have one turtley race((Sc2 Protoss, Sc:Bw Terran)), and one race that expands like crazy ((Sc2 & Sc:Bw Zerg))
If they were trully different games, it would not be called StarCraft 2, because that was the most anticipated game EVER (( I, personally, waited 12 years for Sc2 to be released)).. It would be marketing suicide to call a game StarCraft 2, and have it be different than StarCraft/BrooWar. Blizzard is not dumb, and wouldnt make that kind of mistake.. StarCraft/BroodWar and StarCraft 2 DIFFER, yes, but they ARE NOT different.. Sorry to burst your bubble..
*note - there is a big difference when using the words Differ and Different. ex. a pitbull and a boxer DIFFER, a pitbull and a hamster are DIFFERENT*
On April 26 2012 03:45 sGs.Stregon wrote: *note - there is a big difference when using the words Differ and Different. ex. a pitbull and a boxer DIFFER, a pitbull and a hamster are DIFFERENT*
If two things differ, then they are different.
How hard is that to understand.
The only thing that won't be different from Brood War, is Brood War. The fact that it's called Wings of Liberty and plays differently is proof.
On April 26 2012 03:45 sGs.Stregon wrote: *note - there is a big difference when using the words Differ and Different. ex. a pitbull and a boxer DIFFER, a pitbull and a hamster are DIFFERENT*
If two things differ, then they are different.
How hard is that to understand.
The only thing that won't be different from Brood War, is Brood War. The fact that it's called Wings of Liberty and plays differently is proof.
Starcraft is the name of the franchise.
"you cannot argue with an idiot, because they will just bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience", as my mother use to tell me.
You can manipulate the way you use different to fit your argument all you want, it doesnt change the fact that they are,in fact, not different in the way that people imply.
Sc/Bw and Sc2 are indeed different games. But they are not different games like WC3 and Diablo 2 are different games. So stop insinuating that they are.
On April 26 2012 03:45 sGs.Stregon wrote: *note - there is a big difference when using the words Differ and Different. ex. a pitbull and a boxer DIFFER, a pitbull and a hamster are DIFFERENT*
If two things differ, then they are different.
How hard is that to understand.
The only thing that won't be different from Brood War, is Brood War. The fact that it's called Wings of Liberty and plays differently is proof.
Starcraft is the name of the franchise.
"you cannot argue with an idiot, because they will just bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience", as my mother use to tell me.
You can manipulate the way you use different to fit your argument all you want, it doesnt change the fact that they are,in fact, not different in the way that people imply.
Sc/Bw and Sc2 are indeed different games. But they are not different games like WC3 and Diablo 2 are different games. So stop insinuating that they are.
You can say they have similar properties. You cannot say that are not different games. That's what you have been saying, not even insinuating, so I'm not sure where you're going with this.
On April 26 2012 03:45 sGs.Stregon wrote: *note - there is a big difference when using the words Differ and Different. ex. a pitbull and a boxer DIFFER, a pitbull and a hamster are DIFFERENT*
If two things differ, then they are different.
How hard is that to understand.
The only thing that won't be different from Brood War, is Brood War. The fact that it's called Wings of Liberty and plays differently is proof.
Starcraft is the name of the franchise.
"you cannot argue with an idiot, because they will just bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience", as my mother use to tell me.
You can manipulate the way you use different to fit your argument all you want, it doesnt change the fact that they are,in fact, not different in the way that people imply.
Sc/Bw and Sc2 are indeed different games. But they are not different games like WC3 and Diablo 2 are different games. So stop insinuating that they are.
On April 26 2012 03:45 sGs.Stregon wrote: *note - there is a big difference when using the words Differ and Different. ex. a pitbull and a boxer DIFFER, a pitbull and a hamster are DIFFERENT*
If two things differ, then they are different.
How hard is that to understand.
The only thing that won't be different from Brood War, is Brood War. The fact that it's called Wings of Liberty and plays differently is proof.
Starcraft is the name of the franchise.
"you cannot argue with an idiot, because they will just bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience", as my mother use to tell me.
You can manipulate the way you use different to fit your argument all you want, it doesnt change the fact that they are,in fact, not different in the way that people imply.
Sc/Bw and Sc2 are indeed different games. But they are not different games like WC3 and Diablo 2 are different games. So stop insinuating that they are.
You can say they have similar properties. You cannot say that are not different games. That's what you have been saying, not even insinuating, so I'm not sure where you're going with this.
What I am getting at, is the way that people use that phrase "they are different games" does not apply, in the sense that they are using it.. Yes, they are different, but they are not League of Legends and Halo different. ((if they were, then Sc:Bw skills would not transition over to Sc2))
They are different, but the skills that a Flash/Jaedong/Bisu would have from Sc:Bw would transition too Sc2 very good, and trying to make an argument that they wouldnt, because they are different games, is not very informed, as some of the biggest names Sc2 has had up untill this point came from Sc:Bw backgrounds.
We can argue symantics all day, and you would win, because yes they are different games.. But if we got past the symantics of it, and delved into how people use that phrase "they are different games" i would be right, because people are missusing it.
On April 26 2012 03:45 sGs.Stregon wrote: *note - there is a big difference when using the words Differ and Different. ex. a pitbull and a boxer DIFFER, a pitbull and a hamster are DIFFERENT*
If two things differ, then they are different.
How hard is that to understand.
The only thing that won't be different from Brood War, is Brood War. The fact that it's called Wings of Liberty and plays differently is proof.
Starcraft is the name of the franchise.
"you cannot argue with an idiot, because they will just bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience", as my mother use to tell me.
You can manipulate the way you use different to fit your argument all you want, it doesnt change the fact that they are,in fact, not different in the way that people imply.
Sc/Bw and Sc2 are indeed different games. But they are not different games like WC3 and Diablo 2 are different games. So stop insinuating that they are.
So.... basically the only thing you've established is that SCBW and SC2 are both RTS. Good job! Brilliant.
On April 26 2012 03:02 InoyouS2 wrote: It'd be really funny to see what kind of excuses these rabid BW fanboys come up with when Flash/Jaedong and Bisu don't just change to Sc2 and win everything.
It's going to be really funny to see what kind of excuses these rabid Sc2 fangirls come up with when Flash/Jaedong and Bisu change to Sc2 and win everything.
Hooray for immaturity, but I bet my bottom dollar that they will not dominate in Sc2.
There has been a trend of strong tactical BW players doing extremely well in sc2. I don't expect every BW pro to come over and dominate, but the truly exceptional BW players will likely carry their intelligence and strategic insight into sc2 and stomp all over the likes of zergbong etc. IMMVP is one of the better bw players to switch (at the time of the switch, so don't give me a hard time about boxer, nada, july etc), and he really mauled the hell out of everybody badly before his injury got too severe.
While the game was developing, the mechanics of brood war pros increased their chances of performing well at Sc2, which some did.
However at the current point in the game's development, it will take a lot more than BW experience and mechanics to compete in Sc2, especially since Sc2 is a lot more coinflippy compared with BW. But at the end of the day they are both different games, so being good at BW may help in Sc2, but it definitely won't give you a free pass by any stretch, mostly I'm just shocked at how loud some BW fans are being, I like both games for different reasons and other people should be a little more accepting of new things.
I am tired of this argument.. League of Legends and StarCraft 2 are two different games.. StarCraft/BroodWar and StarCraft2 are not different games, they are the same game, they just play a little differently.
No, they are different games; saying Starcraft 2 is the same as Starcraft:BW is absolutely stupid.
Prove your point please. Both have 3 races, the 3 races preform the same in each game ((besides Protoss and Terran basically being swapped in Sc2)), they both require you manage an economy while building infrastructer//an army. They both require you to use tactical desicions to achive goals. They both require scouting, and have tech paths for different situations that you scout. I can go on.. They are both the same game, they just play a little differently.. Blizzard would not put the title StarCraft 2 onto a game that was different than StarCraft/Brood War, because not even they are that dumb..
It sounds to me like you think all Real Time Strategy games are the same o.O
In a RTS, as in other wargames, the participants position and maneuver units and structures under their control to secure areas of the map and/or destroy their opponents' assets. In a typical RTS, it is possible to create additional units and structures during the course of a game. This is generally limited by a requirement to expend accumulated resources. These resources are in turn garnered by controlling special points on the map and/or possessing certain types of units and structures devoted to this purpose. More specifically, the typical game of the RTS genre features resource gathering, base building, in-game technological development and indirect control of units.[4][5] ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_strategy
Are Banjo Kazooie and Banjo Tooie the same game? Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Bros. 2 (and 3)? Diablo I and Diablo II (and Diablo III)? Pokemon Red/ Blue and Pokemon Gold/ Silver? The next model comes from the same genre and obviously contains many (if not most) of the same elements that they original had. That's why it's a frickin sequel. The game creators and designers had success with the first, and they wanted to make another one. StarCraft 2 is the sequel to StarCraft 1.
I am trying to make the argument that players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would still be top players IF they switched to Sc2, and trying to get past this B.S. argument that Sc:Bw and Sc2 are different games so players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would not do well at it.. YES THEY ARE expletive DIFFERNT GAMES, BUT NOT THE THE expletive SENSE PEOPLE USE THAT expletive PHRASE.. JESUS H. CHRIST.
I am sorry that you feel the need to gangbang me for trying to defend Sc:Bw pros, mabey yall should find a home in the Starcraft2 forums, and join your little fanboy clubs **for ex Sc:Bw pros/amateurs**..
On April 26 2012 05:09 sGs.Stregon wrote: to Kiett and DarkPlasmaBall
I am trying to make the argument that players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would still be top players IF they switched to Sc2, and trying to get past this B.S. argument that Sc:Bw and Sc2 are different games so players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would not do well at it.. YES THEY ARE F*CKING DIFFERNT, BUT NOT THE THE SENSE PEOPLE USE THAT PHRASE.. JESUS H. CHRIST.
I am sorry that you feel the need to gangbang me for trying to defend Sc:Bw pros, mabey yall should find a home in the Starcraft2 forums..
Eventually, yes they will.
These players have natural abilities that most of us can only dream of. On top of that, they have hours upon hours upon weeks upon months upon years of more practice than most players have in any RTS setting (SC:BW is notorious for how grueling training can be in team houses - 8 hour days are common, without a pool and mansion in Arizona).
The assumption that they will immediately enter the pro-scene and win is incorrect. ForGG is a great example of this. Obviously he's not Flash, Bisu, etc- nobody is- but he's a good example of the quality you can expect from top-tier BW pros. The fact of the matter is there will obviously be a period where the mechanics these players acquired from BW will essentially cease to win them games. What I mean by this is that their opponents will also always make workers, never get supply blocked, and be able to micro effectively. This is usually mid-high masters Korea. At that point, these top pros will need to learn the nuances of the game. Keep in mind, for example, that Flash established Mech TvP in BroodWar, while that conversely is a nearly impossible avenue in StarCraft 2. That may change (and I hope to god it does), but at least for the moment these players are essentially going to learn a completely new style to play. While the matchup (ie TvP) is the same, the units, interactions, maps, graphics, interface, fuck it- basically EVERYTHING- else is different.
The top BW pros will be excellent SC2 pros, when they have trained and put in the time to learn the game. Until that point, they're just going to be really, really good players.
This concept is pretty basic, and should be understood to everyone. I see no reason to believe otherwise without citing bias or fanboyism as your evidence.
tl:dr Everyone needs to get over themselves. If you've watched SC:BW and SC2, there is no reason to not be excited about what Bisu will do with a warp prism. Oh wait, there's talk about him playing Terran, so that may be moot. There you are OP topic!
On April 26 2012 05:09 sGs.Stregon wrote: to Kiett and DarkPlasmaBall
I am trying to make the argument that players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would still be top players IF they switched to Sc2, and trying to get past this B.S. argument that Sc:Bw and Sc2 are different games so players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would not do well at it.. YES THEY ARE F*CKING DIFFERNT, BUT NOT THE THE GOD DAM SENSE PEOPLE USE THAT F*CKING PHRASE.. JESUS H. CHRIST.
I am sorry that you feel the need to gangbang me for trying to defend Sc:Bw pros, mabey yall should find a home in the Starcraft2 forums..
They are different games and it's very possible they won't experience the same level of success. You know why? Because the skill ceiling is lowered. Most people are under the assumption Flash would not dominate at the same level he did in BW. Why? Because it's easier, so the skill discrepancy isn't as apparent. Flash dominated because of insane mechanics as well as his ability to easily analyze what his opponent had and what he could have a bit from then. In SC2, mechanics are easier, thus his advantage is heavily diminished. At the same time, SC2 is ridiculously more volatile than SC1, considering that all of a sudden a Zerg in SC2 can make a million units at once when his injects finish, while a SC1 Zerg cannot (he will have to start preparing for the allin at least a full round prior). Same thing with warpgate timings, etc.
They work differently. All you've said is that they are both RTS, as I've stated earlier, and many other people have pointed out as well. That's a silly point, really. As Deep posted, they're sequels, so of course they share many similar traits, and it would be far easier to transition from one to the other. It doesn't detract from the point that they are still different games.
On April 26 2012 05:09 sGs.Stregon wrote: to Kiett and DarkPlasmaBall
I am trying to make the argument that players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would still be top players IF they switched to Sc2, and trying to get past this B.S. argument that Sc:Bw and Sc2 are different games so players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would not do well at it.. YES THEY ARE expletive DIFFERNT GAMES, BUT NOT THE THE expletive SENSE PEOPLE USE THAT expletive PHRASE.. JESUS H. CHRIST.
I am sorry that you feel the need to gangbang me for trying to defend Sc:Bw pros, mabey yall should find a home in the Starcraft2 forums..
Compare performances of fOrGG and MC and you got a good reason why skill might not transfer 100%
On April 26 2012 05:09 sGs.Stregon wrote: to Kiett and DarkPlasmaBall
I am trying to make the argument that players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would still be top players IF they switched to Sc2, and trying to get past this B.S. argument that Sc:Bw and Sc2 are different games so players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would not do well at it.. YES THEY ARE expletive DIFFERNT GAMES, BUT NOT THE THE expletive SENSE PEOPLE USE THAT expletive PHRASE.. JESUS H. CHRIST.
I am sorry that you feel the need to gangbang me for trying to defend Sc:Bw pros, mabey yall should find a home in the Starcraft2 forums..
Compare performances of fOrGG and MC and you got a good reason why skill might not transfer 100%
Yout right, MVP was a second rate amateur in Sc:Bw and look at him =/
On April 26 2012 05:09 sGs.Stregon wrote: to Kiett and DarkPlasmaBall
I am trying to make the argument that players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would still be top players IF they switched to Sc2, and trying to get past this B.S. argument that Sc:Bw and Sc2 are different games so players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would not do well at it.. YES THEY ARE expletive DIFFERNT GAMES, BUT NOT THE THE expletive SENSE PEOPLE USE THAT expletive PHRASE.. JESUS H. CHRIST.
I am sorry that you feel the need to gangbang me for trying to defend Sc:Bw pros, mabey yall should find a home in the Starcraft2 forums..
Compare performances of fOrGG and MC and you got a good reason why skill might not transfer 100%
Yout right, MVP was a second rate amateur in Sc:Bw and look at him =/
Despite MVP was one of the lessor A-teamers, not a second rate amateur, that's the point exactly. Skill didn't translate directly. People that performed better than MVP are performing worse, such as ForGG, a starleague winner.
On April 26 2012 05:09 sGs.Stregon wrote: to Kiett and DarkPlasmaBall
I am trying to make the argument that players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would still be top players IF they switched to Sc2, and trying to get past this B.S. argument that Sc:Bw and Sc2 are different games so players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would not do well at it.. YES THEY ARE expletive DIFFERNT GAMES, BUT NOT THE THE expletive SENSE PEOPLE USE THAT expletive PHRASE.. JESUS H. CHRIST.
I am sorry that you feel the need to gangbang me for trying to defend Sc:Bw pros, mabey yall should find a home in the Starcraft2 forums..
Compare performances of fOrGG and MC and you got a good reason why skill might not transfer 100%
Yout right, MVP was a second rate amateur in Sc:Bw and look at him =/
Despite MVP was one of the lessor A-teamers, not a second rate amateur, that's the point exactly. Skill didn't translate directly. People that performed better than MVP are performing worse, such as ForGG, a starleague winner.
ForGG slumped in 2008 (i think? mabey 2009) and didnt really acomplish anything form that point on.. Trying to use him as an example of what it would be like if a top tier player like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong switched to Sc2, is not entirely fair.
On April 26 2012 05:09 sGs.Stregon wrote: to Kiett and DarkPlasmaBall
I am trying to make the argument that players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would still be top players IF they switched to Sc2, and trying to get past this B.S. argument that Sc:Bw and Sc2 are different games so players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would not do well at it.. YES THEY ARE expletive DIFFERNT GAMES, BUT NOT THE THE expletive SENSE PEOPLE USE THAT expletive PHRASE.. JESUS H. CHRIST.
I am sorry that you feel the need to gangbang me for trying to defend Sc:Bw pros, mabey yall should find a home in the Starcraft2 forums..
Compare performances of fOrGG and MC and you got a good reason why skill might not transfer 100%
Yout right, MVP was a second rate amateur in Sc:Bw and look at him =/
Despite MVP was one of the lessor A-teamers, not a second rate amateur, that's the point exactly. Skill didn't translate directly. People that performed better than MVP are performing worse, such as ForGG, a starleague winner.
ForGG slumped in 2008 (i think? mabey 2009) and didnt really acomplish anything form that point on.. Trying to use him as an example of what it would be like if a top tier player like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong switched to Sc2, is not entirely fair.
I'm aware, but he was still considered better than MVP. Hyun was also better than MVP.
On April 26 2012 05:09 sGs.Stregon wrote: to Kiett and DarkPlasmaBall
I am trying to make the argument that players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would still be top players IF they switched to Sc2, and trying to get past this B.S. argument that Sc:Bw and Sc2 are different games so players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would not do well at it.. YES THEY ARE expletive DIFFERNT GAMES, BUT NOT THE THE expletive SENSE PEOPLE USE THAT expletive PHRASE.. JESUS H. CHRIST.
I am sorry that you feel the need to gangbang me for trying to defend Sc:Bw pros, mabey yall should find a home in the Starcraft2 forums..
Compare performances of fOrGG and MC and you got a good reason why skill might not transfer 100%
Yout right, MVP was a second rate amateur in Sc:Bw and look at him =/
Despite MVP was one of the lessor A-teamers, not a second rate amateur, that's the point exactly. Skill didn't translate directly. People that performed better than MVP are performing worse, such as ForGG, a starleague winner.
ForGG slumped in 2008 (i think? mabey 2009) and didnt really acomplish anything form that point on.. Trying to use him as an example of what it would be like if a top tier player like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong switched to Sc2, is not entirely fair.
I'm aware, but he was still considered better than MVP. Hyun was also better than MVP.
Hyun only got to top 30 in elo when he luckily beat Flash when Flash was in his over 2400 elo rampage. From that, Hyun gained so much point and for the rest of his BW career, he had a very mediocre record.
ForGG kept on doing 2 Factory power push play that the Protoss players knew what was coming and his Terran vs Zerg have had some really bad micro and macro.
While MVP was able to take one game from Flash that was strickly based on skills and pure micro/macro.
From this perspective, MVP was certainly a better player than ForGG and Hyun.
On April 26 2012 05:09 sGs.Stregon wrote: to Kiett and DarkPlasmaBall
I am trying to make the argument that players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would still be top players IF they switched to Sc2, and trying to get past this B.S. argument that Sc:Bw and Sc2 are different games so players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would not do well at it.. YES THEY ARE expletive DIFFERNT GAMES, BUT NOT THE THE expletive SENSE PEOPLE USE THAT expletive PHRASE.. JESUS H. CHRIST.
I am sorry that you feel the need to gangbang me for trying to defend Sc:Bw pros, mabey yall should find a home in the Starcraft2 forums..
Compare performances of fOrGG and MC and you got a good reason why skill might not transfer 100%
Yout right, MVP was a second rate amateur in Sc:Bw and look at him =/
Despite MVP was one of the lessor A-teamers, not a second rate amateur, that's the point exactly. Skill didn't translate directly. People that performed better than MVP are performing worse, such as ForGG, a starleague winner.
ForGG slumped in 2008 (i think? mabey 2009) and didnt really acomplish anything form that point on.. Trying to use him as an example of what it would be like if a top tier player like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong switched to Sc2, is not entirely fair.
I'm aware, but he was still considered better than MVP. Hyun was also better than MVP.
Hyun only got to top 30 in elo when he luckily beat Flash when Flash was in his over 2400 elo rampage. From that, Hyun gained so much point and for the rest of his BW career, he had a very mediocre record.
ForGG kept on doing 2 Factory power push play that the Protoss players knew what was coming and his Terran vs Zerg have had some really bad micro and macro.
While MVP was able to take one game from Flash that was strickly based on skills and pure micro/macro.
From this perspective, MVP was certainly a better player than ForGG and Hyun.
Hardly. I don't consider the "take a single game off Flash" a valid argument, especially when he went 1-3 overall vs him, and had a sub 50% record. What matters was results, as far as I'm concerned. Flash still dominated the set.
I think Bisu would make a better Terran, than he would a Protoss in Sc2.. But I would like to see him play Protoss in Sc2 too see if protoss can be thought of more than 1a ftw ((wether true or not, that is how people view that race))
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote: [quote]
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality
lol I don't care. If people are going to come in here and act like they understand BW while their posts show the exact opposite, I have no qualms about calling them out on it.
And I'm going to admit, I'm not that informed either, but at least I know enough to not make the statement:
"BW pros who have switched over have not done well."
That statement is laugh worthy and should seriously be voted for as one of the most ignorant posts in the BW/SC2 discussion in a long time.
No-one really said that I think, no-one's arguing former BW players have done well in SC2. Doing well is different from dominating though.
It's a weird argument anyways, MKP, MC, MMA haven't become good at SC2 because they had a past in BW. They're this good because they practice hard and are talented RTS players. Writing their succes up to BW implies that BW and SC2 are the same game, SC2 just being a "light" version. Which time and time again has been proven wrong, SC2 is a completely different game and it requires a different skillset from it's players than BW does.
So no, BW players aren't going to be dominating like the flick of a switch. Flash and Jaedong aren't going to step in and win on pure talent. They're going to have to put in the time and effort to rise to the current level of competition in Starcraft 2.
If by time and effort, you mean Flash getting to Masters during wrist surgery without even knowing what the new units did, then sure, I guess they'll take "time and effort".
Also, I agree that SC2 is a completely different game, because I don't want to associate it with BW in any sense. But it's not like the two are different mechanically. What mechanics in SC2 actually take effort to learn if you're a BW player? There's not a single one I can name where BW mechanics actually makes it harder.
If anything, a pro player like Bisu or Flash would just be staring at the user interface and laughing while they say "What? And I can 1a now too? lolololololol"
Warpgates and injects can definitely take time getting used to.
lol that won't be hard for a brood war pro at all as SC2 requires A LOT less multitasking than Brood War.
On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote: [quote]
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote: [quote]I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote: [quote]
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality
lol I don't care. If people are going to come in here and act like they understand BW while their posts show the exact opposite, I have no qualms about calling them out on it.
And I'm going to admit, I'm not that informed either, but at least I know enough to not make the statement:
"BW pros who have switched over have not done well."
That statement is laugh worthy and should seriously be voted for as one of the most ignorant posts in the BW/SC2 discussion in a long time.
No-one really said that I think, no-one's arguing former BW players have done well in SC2. Doing well is different from dominating though.
It's a weird argument anyways, MKP, MC, MMA haven't become good at SC2 because they had a past in BW. They're this good because they practice hard and are talented RTS players. Writing their succes up to BW implies that BW and SC2 are the same game, SC2 just being a "light" version. Which time and time again has been proven wrong, SC2 is a completely different game and it requires a different skillset from it's players than BW does.
So no, BW players aren't going to be dominating like the flick of a switch. Flash and Jaedong aren't going to step in and win on pure talent. They're going to have to put in the time and effort to rise to the current level of competition in Starcraft 2.
If by time and effort, you mean Flash getting to Masters during wrist surgery without even knowing what the new units did, then sure, I guess they'll take "time and effort".
Also, I agree that SC2 is a completely different game, because I don't want to associate it with BW in any sense. But it's not like the two are different mechanically. What mechanics in SC2 actually take effort to learn if you're a BW player? There's not a single one I can name where BW mechanics actually makes it harder.
If anything, a pro player like Bisu or Flash would just be staring at the user interface and laughing while they say "What? And I can 1a now too? lolololololol"
Warpgates and injects can definitely take time getting used to.
lol that won't be hard for a brood war pro at all as SC2 requires A LOT less multitasking than Brood War.
Yeah, well I mean I didn't mean that it would be hard, but rather it would take time getting used to. I played BW until SC2 release, I know full well how much harder it was^^.
On April 26 2012 05:09 sGs.Stregon wrote: to Kiett and DarkPlasmaBall
I am trying to make the argument that players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would still be top players IF they switched to Sc2, and trying to get past this B.S. argument that Sc:Bw and Sc2 are different games so players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would not do well at it.. YES THEY ARE expletive DIFFERNT GAMES, BUT NOT THE THE expletive SENSE PEOPLE USE THAT expletive PHRASE.. JESUS H. CHRIST.
I am sorry that you feel the need to gangbang me for trying to defend Sc:Bw pros, mabey yall should find a home in the Starcraft2 forums..
Compare performances of fOrGG and MC and you got a good reason why skill might not transfer 100%
Yout right, MVP was a second rate amateur in Sc:Bw and look at him =/
Despite MVP was one of the lessor A-teamers, not a second rate amateur, that's the point exactly. Skill didn't translate directly. People that performed better than MVP are performing worse, such as ForGG, a starleague winner.
ForGG slumped in 2008 (i think? mabey 2009) and didnt really acomplish anything form that point on.. Trying to use him as an example of what it would be like if a top tier player like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong switched to Sc2, is not entirely fair.
I'm aware, but he was still considered better than MVP. Hyun was also better than MVP.
All these players are lonewolfs too. It's not like they had their teammates, strategists and coaches with them when they transferred over. All of them have mediocre teammates (if you compare them to pro bw players) to practice with.
When one of the S-Class players decide to switch to SC2, you can bet that their teammates will want to follow as well and that's what's going to change the game. MVP trains with who? Zergbong? Flash will be practicing with Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy, etc and all of the other legends. They probably won't stream either and play only in leagues where replays won't be released so people can't copy them step by step as they have in Brood War.
On April 24 2012 20:22 Zergneedsfood wrote: [quote]
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
[quote]
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
[quote]
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Oh ZnF this is not going to end well ... not when you say sc2 is literally dog poo quality
lol I don't care. If people are going to come in here and act like they understand BW while their posts show the exact opposite, I have no qualms about calling them out on it.
And I'm going to admit, I'm not that informed either, but at least I know enough to not make the statement:
"BW pros who have switched over have not done well."
That statement is laugh worthy and should seriously be voted for as one of the most ignorant posts in the BW/SC2 discussion in a long time.
No-one really said that I think, no-one's arguing former BW players have done well in SC2. Doing well is different from dominating though.
It's a weird argument anyways, MKP, MC, MMA haven't become good at SC2 because they had a past in BW. They're this good because they practice hard and are talented RTS players. Writing their succes up to BW implies that BW and SC2 are the same game, SC2 just being a "light" version. Which time and time again has been proven wrong, SC2 is a completely different game and it requires a different skillset from it's players than BW does.
So no, BW players aren't going to be dominating like the flick of a switch. Flash and Jaedong aren't going to step in and win on pure talent. They're going to have to put in the time and effort to rise to the current level of competition in Starcraft 2.
If by time and effort, you mean Flash getting to Masters during wrist surgery without even knowing what the new units did, then sure, I guess they'll take "time and effort".
Also, I agree that SC2 is a completely different game, because I don't want to associate it with BW in any sense. But it's not like the two are different mechanically. What mechanics in SC2 actually take effort to learn if you're a BW player? There's not a single one I can name where BW mechanics actually makes it harder.
If anything, a pro player like Bisu or Flash would just be staring at the user interface and laughing while they say "What? And I can 1a now too? lolololololol"
Warpgates and injects can definitely take time getting used to.
lol that won't be hard for a brood war pro at all as SC2 requires A LOT less multitasking than Brood War.
Yeah, well I mean I didn't mean that it would be hard, but rather it would take time getting used to. I played BW until SC2 release, I know full well how much harder it was^^.
Yeah, 12 units per hotkey is no joke in the late game while trying to macro lol
On April 26 2012 05:09 sGs.Stregon wrote: to Kiett and DarkPlasmaBall
I am trying to make the argument that players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would still be top players IF they switched to Sc2, and trying to get past this B.S. argument that Sc:Bw and Sc2 are different games so players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would not do well at it.. YES THEY ARE expletive DIFFERNT GAMES, BUT NOT THE THE expletive SENSE PEOPLE USE THAT expletive PHRASE.. JESUS H. CHRIST.
I am sorry that you feel the need to gangbang me for trying to defend Sc:Bw pros, mabey yall should find a home in the Starcraft2 forums..
Compare performances of fOrGG and MC and you got a good reason why skill might not transfer 100%
Yout right, MVP was a second rate amateur in Sc:Bw and look at him =/
Despite MVP was one of the lessor A-teamers, not a second rate amateur, that's the point exactly. Skill didn't translate directly. People that performed better than MVP are performing worse, such as ForGG, a starleague winner.
ForGG slumped in 2008 (i think? mabey 2009) and didnt really acomplish anything form that point on.. Trying to use him as an example of what it would be like if a top tier player like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong switched to Sc2, is not entirely fair.
I'm aware, but he was still considered better than MVP. Hyun was also better than MVP.
All these players are lonewolfs too. It's not like they had their teammates, strategists and coaches with them when they transferred over. All of them have mediocre teammates (if you compare them to pro bw players) to practice with.
When one of the S-Class players decide to switch to SC2, you can bet that their teammates will want to follow as well and that's what's going to change the game. MVP trains with who? Zergbong? Flash will be practicing with Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy, etc and all of the other legends. They probably won't stream either and play only in leagues where replays won't be released so people can't copy them step by step as they have in Brood War.
Quite possible. I guess we'll see. I wouldn't mind.
On April 26 2012 05:09 sGs.Stregon wrote: to Kiett and DarkPlasmaBall
I am trying to make the argument that players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would still be top players IF they switched to Sc2, and trying to get past this B.S. argument that Sc:Bw and Sc2 are different games so players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would not do well at it.. YES THEY ARE expletive DIFFERNT GAMES, BUT NOT THE THE expletive SENSE PEOPLE USE THAT expletive PHRASE.. JESUS H. CHRIST.
I am sorry that you feel the need to gangbang me for trying to defend Sc:Bw pros, mabey yall should find a home in the Starcraft2 forums..
Compare performances of fOrGG and MC and you got a good reason why skill might not transfer 100%
Yout right, MVP was a second rate amateur in Sc:Bw and look at him =/
Despite MVP was one of the lessor A-teamers, not a second rate amateur, that's the point exactly. Skill didn't translate directly. People that performed better than MVP are performing worse, such as ForGG, a starleague winner.
ForGG slumped in 2008 (i think? mabey 2009) and didnt really acomplish anything form that point on.. Trying to use him as an example of what it would be like if a top tier player like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong switched to Sc2, is not entirely fair.
I'm aware, but he was still considered better than MVP. Hyun was also better than MVP.
All these players are lonewolfs too. It's not like they had their teammates, strategists and coaches with them when they transferred over. All of them have mediocre teammates (if you compare them to pro bw players) to practice with.
When one of the S-Class players decide to switch to SC2, you can bet that their teammates will want to follow as well and that's what's going to change the game. MVP trains with who? Zergbong? Flash will be practicing with Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy, etc and all of the other legends. They probably won't stream either and play only in leagues where replays won't be released so people can't copy them step by step as they have in Brood War.
Quite possible. I guess we'll see. I wouldn't mind.
For a moment, pause a realize how awesome it would be to the guy at Blizzard who manages the B.net database. The same database that keep a record of all the games everyone on of the players play. Holy Grail of SC.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Tell me who was better in BW out of Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP and Nada, Boxer and July?
Also ForGG switched over more recently and showed that his BW mechanics could only get him so far, he made it into code S but not past the first round. Hyun switched over even more recently and he didn't make it past the first round of code A.
Your mindset is perfectly legitimate, for a child, so of course you don't understand. The childish part is not that you don't like Sc2, can't you comprehend a simple statement? I said that your stereotyping of fans is childish.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Tell me who was better in BW out of Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP and Nada, Boxer and July?
Also ForGG switched over more recently and showed that his BW mechanics could only get him so far, he made it into code S but not past the first round. Hyun switched over even more recently and he didn't make it past the first round of code A.
Your mindset is perfectly legitimate, for a child, so of course you don't understand. The childish part is not that you don't like Sc2, can't you comprehend a simple statement? I said that your stereotyping of fans is childish.
MVP was the best, followed by a virtually tie most likely between Nada and Nestea, then July, then probably Boxer and last MMA (I know nothing of MMA) around the time of their switches.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Tell me who was better in BW out of Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP and Nada, Boxer and July?
Also ForGG switched over more recently and showed that his BW mechanics could only get him so far, he made it into code S but not past the first round. Hyun switched over even more recently and he didn't make it past the first round of code A.
Your mindset is perfectly legitimate, for a child, so of course you don't understand. The childish part is not that you don't like Sc2, can't you comprehend a simple statement? I said that your stereotyping of fans is childish.
Your ignorance on this topic means there's really no point in actually discussing this with you, because you obviously haven't followed BW enough to make any arguments regarding the relative skill levels of BW players. Nada/Boxer/July are past their prime and are pretty bad relative to everyone else.
MVP actually took a game off of Flash. Regardless, any of the first four can probably beat Nada, Boxer, and July consistently (actually, I don't know about MMA or MKP, but the point is still the same).
Also, both Hyun and ForGG are just bad. ForGG would 2fac every game and would sunken break every Zerg. Those are strategies that inherently don't transition well and he's still in Code S.
lol, easy transition if I've ever seen one.
You're just ignorant. I don't know why you keep arguing about who's better in BW when you clearly don't even know yourself.
On April 26 2012 05:09 sGs.Stregon wrote: to Kiett and DarkPlasmaBall
I am trying to make the argument that players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would still be top players IF they switched to Sc2, and trying to get past this B.S. argument that Sc:Bw and Sc2 are different games so players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would not do well at it.. YES THEY ARE expletive DIFFERNT GAMES, BUT NOT THE THE expletive SENSE PEOPLE USE THAT expletive PHRASE.. JESUS H. CHRIST.
I am sorry that you feel the need to gangbang me for trying to defend Sc:Bw pros, mabey yall should find a home in the Starcraft2 forums..
Compare performances of fOrGG and MC and you got a good reason why skill might not transfer 100%
Yout right, MVP was a second rate amateur in Sc:Bw and look at him =/
Despite MVP was one of the lessor A-teamers, not a second rate amateur, that's the point exactly. Skill didn't translate directly. People that performed better than MVP are performing worse, such as ForGG, a starleague winner.
ForGG slumped in 2008 (i think? mabey 2009) and didnt really acomplish anything form that point on.. Trying to use him as an example of what it would be like if a top tier player like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong switched to Sc2, is not entirely fair.
I'm aware, but he was still considered better than MVP. Hyun was also better than MVP.
All these players are lonewolfs too. It's not like they had their teammates, strategists and coaches with them when they transferred over. All of them have mediocre teammates (if you compare them to pro bw players) to practice with.
When one of the S-Class players decide to switch to SC2, you can bet that their teammates will want to follow as well and that's what's going to change the game. MVP trains with who? Zergbong? Flash will be practicing with Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy, etc and all of the other legends. They probably won't stream either and play only in leagues where replays won't be released so people can't copy them step by step as they have in Brood War.
Dude you're crazy if you think Flash, etc etc won't play the korean ladder. Of course they will, and of course people will eventually figure out which ID is who. SC2's ladder is just way too good to pass up for a progamer. Don't get me wrong, of course they will play tons of in house practice, but I promise you we will see Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, etc etc floating around korea GM eventually.
The wisest decision is to wait and see, we can't assume who is better if we didn't see them play yet.
I don't know SC2 and I am not very interested either.
However, I think that BW pros will do better than the average Code A players in a shorter time because of the simpler mechanics in SC2.
Don't forget that this transition is for the best of eSports, and even if they don't like it only the guys that actually like the game can succeed. Hope TBLS with such talent won't give up on SC2. It is a pity that the BW proscene is coming to an end, but I wish it's legacy can continue in this new game. Afterall, for me BW pros are protagonists of this new era and I am sure they will keep up. The only reason I can come up with this statement is because BW pro teams train hard. Very hard.
Curious to see how some of the skill sets transition over.. i expect flash to be the most dominant player in sc2 in time.. I believe his particular skill set will be the best for sc2. Very methodical player with a strong understanding of the consequences of each decision.
On April 26 2012 05:09 sGs.Stregon wrote: to Kiett and DarkPlasmaBall
I am trying to make the argument that players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would still be top players IF they switched to Sc2, and trying to get past this B.S. argument that Sc:Bw and Sc2 are different games so players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would not do well at it.. YES THEY ARE expletive DIFFERNT GAMES, BUT NOT THE THE expletive SENSE PEOPLE USE THAT expletive PHRASE.. JESUS H. CHRIST.
I am sorry that you feel the need to gangbang me for trying to defend Sc:Bw pros, mabey yall should find a home in the Starcraft2 forums..
Compare performances of fOrGG and MC and you got a good reason why skill might not transfer 100%
Yout right, MVP was a second rate amateur in Sc:Bw and look at him =/
Despite MVP was one of the lessor A-teamers, not a second rate amateur, that's the point exactly. Skill didn't translate directly. People that performed better than MVP are performing worse, such as ForGG, a starleague winner.
ForGG slumped in 2008 (i think? mabey 2009) and didnt really acomplish anything form that point on.. Trying to use him as an example of what it would be like if a top tier player like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong switched to Sc2, is not entirely fair.
I'm aware, but he was still considered better than MVP. Hyun was also better than MVP.
All these players are lonewolfs too. It's not like they had their teammates, strategists and coaches with them when they transferred over. All of them have mediocre teammates (if you compare them to pro bw players) to practice with.
When one of the S-Class players decide to switch to SC2, you can bet that their teammates will want to follow as well and that's what's going to change the game. MVP trains with who? Zergbong? Flash will be practicing with Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy, etc and all of the other legends. They probably won't stream either and play only in leagues where replays won't be released so people can't copy them step by step as they have in Brood War.
Dude you're crazy if you think Flash, etc etc won't play the korean ladder. Of course they will, and of course people will eventually figure out which ID is who. SC2's ladder is just way too good to pass up for a progamer. Don't get me wrong, of course they will play tons of in house practice, but I promise you we will see Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, etc etc floating around korea GM eventually.
Hehe, even all the progamers like Flash and Jaedong played ladder (iCCuP) in BW.
On April 26 2012 05:09 sGs.Stregon wrote: to Kiett and DarkPlasmaBall
I am trying to make the argument that players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would still be top players IF they switched to Sc2, and trying to get past this B.S. argument that Sc:Bw and Sc2 are different games so players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would not do well at it.. YES THEY ARE expletive DIFFERNT GAMES, BUT NOT THE THE expletive SENSE PEOPLE USE THAT expletive PHRASE.. JESUS H. CHRIST.
I am sorry that you feel the need to gangbang me for trying to defend Sc:Bw pros, mabey yall should find a home in the Starcraft2 forums..
Compare performances of fOrGG and MC and you got a good reason why skill might not transfer 100%
Yout right, MVP was a second rate amateur in Sc:Bw and look at him =/
Despite MVP was one of the lessor A-teamers, not a second rate amateur, that's the point exactly. Skill didn't translate directly. People that performed better than MVP are performing worse, such as ForGG, a starleague winner.
ForGG slumped in 2008 (i think? mabey 2009) and didnt really acomplish anything form that point on.. Trying to use him as an example of what it would be like if a top tier player like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong switched to Sc2, is not entirely fair.
I'm aware, but he was still considered better than MVP. Hyun was also better than MVP.
All these players are lonewolfs too. It's not like they had their teammates, strategists and coaches with them when they transferred over. All of them have mediocre teammates (if you compare them to pro bw players) to practice with.
When one of the S-Class players decide to switch to SC2, you can bet that their teammates will want to follow as well and that's what's going to change the game. MVP trains with who? Zergbong? Flash will be practicing with Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy, etc and all of the other legends. They probably won't stream either and play only in leagues where replays won't be released so people can't copy them step by step as they have in Brood War.
Dude you're crazy if you think Flash, etc etc won't play the korean ladder. Of course they will, and of course people will eventually figure out which ID is who. SC2's ladder is just way too good to pass up for a progamer. Don't get me wrong, of course they will play tons of in house practice, but I promise you we will see Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, etc etc floating around korea GM eventually.
Hehe, even all the progamers like Flash and Jaedong played ladder (iCCuP) in BW.
which brings to mind.. I wounder if the ICCup attack is still on.
I don't get how some of them say they are changing races due to balance... every race was won multiple GSL's... so obviously they can win at the highest level with any race that they are comfortable playing and train hard.
On April 26 2012 13:55 ChosenSC2 wrote: I don't get how some of them say they are changing races due to balance... every race was won multiple GSL's... so obviously they can win at the highest level with any race that they are comfortable playing and train hard.
How often do you see a protoss in the finals, let alone the semi finals? It is always a TvZ, or TvT. I think they are right when they say T has more to offer with his multitasking, They have many different tech paths, mech or bio, where as protoss it seems are forced to utilize every unit anyway.
Since the same discussion has cropped up here again, ill just repost my response in the other thread.
On April 20 2012 23:57 ShadeR wrote: Not buying the whole elephant in the room thing. Not because of the players but rather because of SC2. I do not believe SC2 currently or in the future has the capacity to really show of the skill disparity between god tier players and good players.
TBH I follow Broodwar since 2009 but don't know who's better by the time they retire between ForGG and MVP
Many anti-elephant fans use ForGG as an example because he is under performing in SC2 (for his hype at least) While on the other hand many pro-elephant fans use MVP as an example because he's a MSL quarter finalist (better than any recent success of ex-BW SC2 pros) and is already raping the scene.
Is MVP's one win over Flash in 2010 more impressive than ForGG beating Flash in a series in 2008?
On April 26 2012 14:32 ppshchik wrote: TBH I follow Broodwar since 2009 but don't know who's better by the time they retire between ForGG and MVP
Many anti-elephant fans use ForGG as an example because he is under performing in SC2 (for his hype at least) While on the other hand many pro-elephant fans use MVP as an example because he's a MSL quarter finalist (better than any recent success of ex-BW SC2 pros) and is already raping the scene.
Is MVP's one win over Flash in 2010 more impressive than ForGG beating Flash in a series in 2008?
It's more an issue of relative skill at time of switching. MVP easily.
On April 20 2012 23:57 ShadeR wrote: Not buying the whole elephant in the room thing. Not because of the players but rather because of SC2. I do not believe SC2 currently or in the future has the capacity to really show of the skill disparity between god tier players and good players.
I would ask for a qualification on what factors you consider to contribute to player "skill". I agree that the certain aspects in competitive BW used to quanitfy skill likely will not carry over 1:1. But take SC2 as a stand alone game and I would think if the competition required it, pro players will find a way to differentiate themselves. People say SC2 moves too fast (or something like that) so maybe a mark of skill would be how fast and accurate your decision making skills are. Like if someone looks back on your game, they can reason out why you chose to do "x" over all the other possibilities after mapping out the next 5 likely "moves". Im just spitballing, but I happen to think if you put $1000 on the table and tell a true god tier player to go win, they will find a way to differentiate themselves in order to do so. Players are only as good as they need to be in order to win.
day9 explained it better than me in baseballs vs frizbees. problem is i cant view sc2 as a stand alone title. its all relative. cue sex analogy. once you go black you never go back.
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Tell me who was better in BW out of Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP and Nada, Boxer and July?
Also ForGG switched over more recently and showed that his BW mechanics could only get him so far, he made it into code S but not past the first round. Hyun switched over even more recently and he didn't make it past the first round of code A.
Your mindset is perfectly legitimate, for a child, so of course you don't understand. The childish part is not that you don't like Sc2, can't you comprehend a simple statement? I said that your stereotyping of fans is childish.
Your ignorance on this topic means there's really no point in actually discussing this with you, because you obviously haven't followed BW enough to make any arguments regarding the relative skill levels of BW players. Nada/Boxer/July are past their prime and are pretty bad relative to everyone else.
MVP actually took a game off of Flash. Regardless, any of the first four can probably beat Nada, Boxer, and July consistently (actually, I don't know about MMA or MKP, but the point is still the same).
Also, both Hyun and ForGG are just bad. ForGG would 2fac every game and would sunken break every Zerg. Those are strategies that inherently don't transition well and he's still in Code S.
lol, easy transition if I've ever seen one.
You're just ignorant. I don't know why you keep arguing about who's better in BW when you clearly don't even know yourself.
Keep arguing? I made one statement about BW players and it was a genuine question. My point is that BW skill does not necessarily translate straight into SC2. You assume that just because players were better at BW means they will be better at SC2, not just given time and practice but straight away, that is just not the case. For months players like Flash will be mediocre at SC2, especially if they are only half practicing it while still practicing BW, to think otherwise is underestimating the current Korean SC2 talent.
Actually no, ForGG made it back into code S and got knocked out in the first round again, at least he managed to win one match this time, but your ignorance on the topic makes it not worth discussing I suppose...
You are clearly so blinded by BW bias that I can't be bothered trying to argue with you anymore, I hope you stick around long enough after the switch to see your heroes fall to "trash players" like MVP, Nestea and MC.
On April 26 2012 15:20 ShadeR wrote: day9 explained it better than me in baseballs vs frizbees. problem is i cant view sc2 as a stand alone title. its all relative. cue sex analogy. once you go black you never go back.
Well you are entitled to you opinion on the two games. I kinda hope you figure at a way to appreciate SC2 in for its own merits and not allow your love of BW jade any potential enjoyment to be had from SC2. Its for both sides hard to seperate the games from all the drama and stuff that goes on around it, but maybe in a couple years Team BW and Team SC2 will just merge to Team SC or something. We can all get together and kick the next C&C game in the nuts.
lol at people saying FLASH didn't no what untis do in sc2, it took literally 1~2 hours at most to learn all the units and buildings of three races. please name one players who was really dominant in BW and is now dominating in SC2.
On April 26 2012 17:05 HellionDrop wrote: lol at people saying FLASH didn't no what untis do in sc2, it took literally 1~2 hours at most to learn all the units and buildings of three races. please name one players who was really dominant in BW and is now dominating in SC2.
Please name one player who was really dominant in Brood War when they switched to Starcraft 2.
lol fine, but at least it shows that even in a best case scenario, very few top tier BW pros is actually going to dominate, in fact i think people who can do well are those who are still very young and have tons of upside. and to people who think having good mechanic in BW gives you any advantage, i argue that it's like a person who can type super fast in one language and is now asked to type in another langauge he's not very familiar with. Sure he can move his fingers fast, but compares to the native he's going to be limited.
Really wanted to see all the BW pros especially the top caliber players stick to their races, although unrealistic one can dream... Good luck to Bisu and I can't wait to see his Terran/Toss just him play in general actually lol
On April 26 2012 17:27 HellionDrop wrote: lol fine, but at least it shows that even in a best case scenario, very few top tier BW pros is actually going to dominate, in fact i think people who can do well are those who are still very young and have tons of upside. and to people who think having good mechanic in BW gives you any advantage, i argue that it's like a person who can type super fast in one language and is now asked to type in another langauge he's not very familiar with. Sure he can move his fingers fast, but compares to the native he's going to be limited.
...Um. Flash is really young. He's still only 19. He still has countless years ahead of him to dominate in every game he touches.
On April 26 2012 17:27 HellionDrop wrote: lol fine, but at least it shows that even in a best case scenario, very few top tier BW pros is actually going to dominate, in fact i think people who can do well are those who are still very young and have tons of upside. and to people who think having good mechanic in BW gives you any advantage, i argue that it's like a person who can type super fast in one language and is now asked to type in another langauge he's not very familiar with. Sure he can move his fingers fast, but compares to the native he's going to be limited.
...Um. Flash is really young. He's still only 19. He still has countless years ahead of him to dominate in every game he touches.
i'm not talking about just one player, but in general. Up to date, none of the so-called BW legends are the best in sc2, Granted that they are all past their prime, but the competition really isn't any easier. Not trying to compare two games, there are very talented players on both sides, so i really don't think the switch would be easy for the BW pros.
For all those Protoss fans, there will always be HoeJJa and KT to cheer for if Bisu ends up betraying his loyalty for Aiur. He will become the first Protoss bonjwa.
On April 21 2012 11:06 Fanek wrote: IllIllIlIlII - this is one of MKP account, also Puzzle and other Slayers players and other SC2 pross
i can bet pros BW using koreans nicknames, example: "Horang2 90% winrate in Korean Grandmaster before" so he probably get GM also in season 7, so it could be this guy http://sc2ranks.com/kr/869893/로켓단
No, most likely not. And the last guy is hannibal, certainly not flash. To think that the top BW pros would be top of GM with 80% winrate playing only part time is way overestimating their abilities. That's close to MKP status. It took both forgg and hyun a lot longer to achieve anything even close to that.
Forgg and Hyun are not good representations of the BW skillset.
And sc2 isn't a good representation of the BW skillset....
Sc2 isn't a direct representation. Lemme quote you a bit.
"To think that the top BW pros would be top of GM with 80% winrate playing only part time is way overestimating their abilities."
That's a conclusion of law (sorry, lawyer). Now, let's look at your basis for saying this.
" That's close to MKP status. It took both forgg and hyun a lot longer to achieve anything even close to that."
And I simply said: No. Your conclusion is not supported by your facts. The fact that BW coaches have said their players have reached GM, and that one (Horang2) has an obnoxious winrate... well at least that's testimonial support for the position that BW players can play SC2 at a high level without a whole lot of practice time (at least, not equivalent to the current SC2 pros when they first joined the SC2 scene).
? Rofl nothing in this thread is supported by facts, it's just all best guessing. Can you actually prove that that player is horang? And I don't doubt they probably could reach GM, but 70-80% winrate? Nah. In fact, the best evidence all leads to pointing that the smurf accounts aren't BW pros but regular SC2 pros on smurfs (the players stream themselves playing on those accounts).
No, it's FACT that the BW coaches SAID things. As far as BW pros are concerned, that's the evidence available. Now you come here and mouth off that BW pros can't possibly reach MKP level (on the ladder) without equivalent playing time... and I call bullshit on that. You have no proof whatsoever, just your perception that somehow Sc2 ladder is sacred ground. That SC2 streamers play on barcode accounts. What kind of proof is that? Negative proof? That's extremely weak to come up with conclusions of fact. Remember, the main argument we're having is that "BW pros can or cannot get to 70-80% on GM KR Ladder." And on that account, I have the interview to support my conclusion that they can. And you have... nothing.
And I agree with the above post. SC2 ladder =/= GSL. GSL is definitely the peak of SC2 play right now. However, many of the current GSL superstars (DRG especially, cause I followed him while he was failing in Code B) were born from sick ladder results/play.
Don't enjoy self-quoting, but:
On April 26 2012 17:46 lastshadow wrote: Some of the lllllllll's on kr ladder are in fact, yes, STX progamers, but no other team or progamers are doing this that I'm aware of.
LS is a mainstay on KR masters/gm so he'd probably know.
On April 26 2012 17:05 HellionDrop wrote: lol at people saying FLASH didn't no what untis do in sc2, it took literally 1~2 hours at most to learn all the units and buildings of three races. please name one players who was really dominant in BW and is now dominating in SC2.
Noone dominant at the time of their switch has switched. The best player at the time of their switch was MVP and he is the most accomplished SC2 player.
On April 26 2012 17:05 HellionDrop wrote: lol at people saying FLASH didn't no what untis do in sc2, it took literally 1~2 hours at most to learn all the units and buildings of three races. please name one players who was really dominant in BW and is now dominating in SC2.
Noone dominant at the time of their switch has switched. The best player at the time of their switch was MVP and he is the most accomplished SC2 player.
This may just be my opinion, but I feel hyun was a better BW player when he switched
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Except there's no such thing as a bonjwa status in SC2, and there shouldn't be. It'd taint the name of bonjwa, and saying MVP is a bonjwa compared to the likes of BW bonjwas......oh god it hurts my heart. T_T
People just need to stop denying the inevitable. If BW players switch they're going to smash the game to pieces and kick the crap out of everyone. If they weren't, then no SC2 fan would be excited about them switching.
The way SC2 fans are putting it: "Oh! BW players are switching! Yay! They'll change the game! But don't worry, they're going to be mediocre players who lose to the likes of GREAT PLAYERS like MVP and Nestea!" Like....so many things are wrong with that argument. Sounds like stupid talk to me.
On April 24 2012 20:18 Askalaphos wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
I believe that too. And because I don't want to see my heros get smashed by some Guys I hardly know, I don't think I make the transition to SC2.
Time to say goodbye.
Why do you believe that? It's a dumb argument. That's basically like saying...that since Nada or iloveoov had so many years ahead of everyone in BW, then no new contender would ever beat them. Flash should get stomped. Jaedong should get stomped. Bisu should always get stomped.
But that didn't happen. They came in and dominated, and they dominated trash players like MVP and Nestea. It's going to happen again. People who think otherwise are pretty wrong to think that way.
On April 24 2012 18:47 phyren wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:33 SilentBonjwa wrote:
On April 24 2012 17:13 wassbix wrote:
On April 24 2012 12:04 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of people will be disappointed when they watch these brood war legends lose games in starcraft 2 to stephano and other korean pros. I still dont see the huge skill gap between jaedong and someone like immvp that will let jaedong dominate immvp the majority of the time. Even better micro and multitasking I just dont see it consistently winning in this game. The hard counters and units dying so much faster and when jaedong gets his ramp force fielded while the hatch is taken out I dont think jaedong can micro out of that. Time will tell, but I would take the bet immvp can beat jaedong any day of the week at starcraft 2 no matter how long jaedong practices.
Floored me to realize that we're actually comparing MVP to Jaedong. A B-string woonjin terran to Jaedong. God. Damn.
well BW and SC2 are still different games, and while MVP isnt top notch in BW, he certainly was close to Bonjwa status in SC2.
Honestly, he makes some reasonable points. SC2, as a game, really allows almost anyone to beat anyone else. It is very difficult to play a style that is safe against everything, even if you are willing to take a macro disadvantage to do so. Saying MVP will beat Jaedong consistantly is pretty insane, but I worry that TBLS wont be able to be as dominant in SC2.
Does that mean it's a bad game? That the game is so easy that top players can get floored by noobies? That must suck to watch. :/
In time you might be correct that they will kick the crap out of everyone, but if you think that will happen straight away you are seriously kidding yourself. All the Brood War players that have switched so far have not dominated the scene, so it's retarded to assume that the majority that switch over will dominate. In time the top Brood War players are likely to become top Sc2 players assuming they do switch and keep their interest.
I disagree with the point that anyone can beat anyone else, (see MVP, Nestea with 3 GSL's each and MC, MMA with 2 as well as general Korean dominance over foreigners) though it is certainly more volatile than BW is.
Oh and by the way you have a terrible mindset, the whole SC2 fans/BW fans stereotyping is really childish, if all the BW players do switch over you will either become an SC2 fan or else you will stop watching, in which case I think the scene will be better off without you.
WTF? So Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP, etc. etc. weren't BW players?
lol, you sound just like every other ignorant person who doesn't understand that the almost every top players are Koreans who have played BW at a high level, relative to foreigners.
Also, I think my mindset is perfectly legitimate. If I think that SC2 is a garbage game that's not worth my attention, I'm going to think that way, and if BW pros switch, then I'm just not going to watch them. I don't understand how that's childish at all.
Tell me who was better in BW out of Nestea, MVP, MMA, MKP and Nada, Boxer and July?
Also ForGG switched over more recently and showed that his BW mechanics could only get him so far, he made it into code S but not past the first round. Hyun switched over even more recently and he didn't make it past the first round of code A.
Your mindset is perfectly legitimate, for a child, so of course you don't understand. The childish part is not that you don't like Sc2, can't you comprehend a simple statement? I said that your stereotyping of fans is childish.
Your ignorance on this topic means there's really no point in actually discussing this with you, because you obviously haven't followed BW enough to make any arguments regarding the relative skill levels of BW players. Nada/Boxer/July are past their prime and are pretty bad relative to everyone else.
MVP actually took a game off of Flash. Regardless, any of the first four can probably beat Nada, Boxer, and July consistently (actually, I don't know about MMA or MKP, but the point is still the same).
Also, both Hyun and ForGG are just bad. ForGG would 2fac every game and would sunken break every Zerg. Those are strategies that inherently don't transition well and he's still in Code S.
lol, easy transition if I've ever seen one.
You're just ignorant. I don't know why you keep arguing about who's better in BW when you clearly don't even know yourself.
Keep arguing? I made one statement about BW players and it was a genuine question. My point is that BW skill does not necessarily translate straight into SC2. You assume that just because players were better at BW means they will be better at SC2, not just given time and practice but straight away, that is just not the case. For months players like Flash will be mediocre at SC2, especially if they are only half practicing it while still practicing BW, to think otherwise is underestimating the current Korean SC2 talent.
Actually no, ForGG made it back into code S and got knocked out in the first round again, at least he managed to win one match this time, but your ignorance on the topic makes it not worth discussing I suppose...
You are clearly so blinded by BW bias that I can't be bothered trying to argue with you anymore, I hope you stick around long enough after the switch to see your heroes fall to "trash players" like MVP, Nestea and MC.
Does not translate straight into SC2: Every SC2 player who was better in BW is a top player. Even if you point at one example where it doesn't apply, in statistics we call that an outlier.
All I'm saying is you're ignorant. I have BW bias, I admit, but people around here know already that all I do is tell people why what they're saying is just wrong, and that doesn't stop you from just not knowing you're talking about. When you're pointing at random BW pros thinking they're comparable to people like Flash, it's hilarious because Flash is on another level.
And again, if people are so adamant that BW pros are "going to get stomped" for a few months, why does everyone even care about them switching over? The games are so different, why do you expect the players to be the same? Just kind of shows the level difference between really good players (bw players considering the switch) and terrible players (the bw players that got stomped on by the bw players considering the switch and switched first to sc2 to get an early lead).
Flash jumped onto the scene at age 16 and destroyed everyone. There was no time for "adjustments". He just killed people, and if I recall correctly he wasn't even playing the game for very long, relative to everyone else.
BW is easily harder to learn than SC2. I fail to see why Flash won't just do the same and stomp.
On April 26 2012 17:05 HellionDrop wrote: lol at people saying FLASH didn't no what untis do in sc2, it took literally 1~2 hours at most to learn all the units and buildings of three races. please name one players who was really dominant in BW and is now dominating in SC2.
Noone dominant at the time of their switch has switched. The best player at the time of their switch was MVP and he is the most accomplished SC2 player.
This may just be my opinion, but I feel hyun was a better BW player when he switched
Yeah, this should provide some epic epic games. However I believe that this wave of highly motivated, talented, experienced pro gamers will spell disaster for any foreigner aiming to win international events. ;O.
Within one year flash will be top 3 terran, anyone who thinks differently must have stopped watching sc1 proleague. The guy is a robot ;o.
lol @ all the "whoever is good @ sc2, was somewhat, somewhere good @ bw or on a bw pro team. If there are top players that didnt play BW they are outliers"
ROFL. how about polt + all the wc3 players doing well?
On April 26 2012 20:16 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Does not translate straight into SC2: Every SC2 player who was better in BW is a top player. Even if you point at one example where it doesn't apply, in statistics we call that an outlier.
All I'm saying is you're ignorant.
aren't you being ignorant yourself by calling every top level sc2 player who hasnt played bw as "outliers". Basically just a sneaky way of discrediting the game, saying its shit and BW players will stop cuz BW takes skill? thats the message conveyed no?
On April 26 2012 22:52 MDMA_ wrote: lol @ all the "whoever is good @ sc2, was somewhat, somewhere good @ bw or on a bw pro team. If there are top players that didnt play BW they are outliers"
ROFL. how about polt + all the wc3 players doing well?
Does not translate straight into SC2: Every SC2 player who was better in BW is a top player. Even if you point at one example where it doesn't apply, in statistics we call that an outlier.
All I'm saying is you're ignorant.
aren't you being ignorant yourself by calling every top level sc2 player who hasnt played bw as "outliers". Basically just a sneaky way of discrediting the game, saying its shit and BW players will stop cuz BW takes skill? thats the message conveyed no?
You need to get your eyes cleaned. There's a difference between "all good BW pros are doing well in SC2" and "all pros doing well in SC2 were also good at BW." It's like the first thing you learn in logic.
On April 26 2012 22:52 MDMA_ wrote: lol @ all the "whoever is good @ sc2, was somewhat, somewhere good @ bw or on a bw pro team. If there are top players that didnt play BW they are outliers"
ROFL. how about polt + all the wc3 players doing well?
On April 26 2012 20:16 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Does not translate straight into SC2: Every SC2 player who was better in BW is a top player. Even if you point at one example where it doesn't apply, in statistics we call that an outlier.
All I'm saying is you're ignorant.
aren't you being ignorant yourself by calling every top level sc2 player who hasnt played bw as "outliers". Basically just a sneaky way of discrediting the game, saying its shit and BW players will stop cuz BW takes skill? thats the message conveyed no?
You need to get your eyes cleaned. There's a difference between "all good BW pros are doing well in SC2" and "all pros doing well in SC2 were also good at BW." It's like the first thing you learn in logic.
YOU need to get your eyes cleared. "Every SC2 player who was better in BW is a top player". Stephano was not a better BW player, nor were any of the wc3 players.
On April 26 2012 17:56 eviltomahawk wrote: For all those Protoss fans, there will always be HoeJJa and KT to cheer for if Bisu ends up betraying his loyalty for Aiur. He will become the first Protoss bonjwa.
This is so awkward to see those icons tied up with those names, feels so wrong.
And guys, for gods sake, ignore the (ignorant part of the) SC2 fellas. Arguing with them is like arguing with a wall. Just let them babble whatever bullshit they want so they can feel they have achieved something.
So, if a retarded SC2 fan makes a retarded post, ignore, if an intelligent SC2 fan makes a post with good points, then we have someone who is actually worth talking to.
On April 26 2012 17:56 eviltomahawk wrote: For all those Protoss fans, there will always be HoeJJa and KT to cheer for if Bisu ends up betraying his loyalty for Aiur. He will become the first Protoss bonjwa.
This is so awkward to see those icons tied up with those names, feels so wrong.
And guys, for gods sake, ignore the (ignorant part of the) SC2 fellas. Arguing with them is like arguing with a wall. Just let them babble whatever bullshit they want so they can feel they have achieved something.
So, if a retarded SC2 fan makes a retarded post, ignore, if an intelligent SC2 fan makes a post with good points, then we have someone who is actually worth talking to.
have u even watched sc2? the game is completely imbalanced and pretty retarded. this is coming from a "retarded sc2 fan". All that most of the sc2 fans are saying is, the "stomp" wont be instant cuz in SC2 ANY player can lose to ANYONE. Its just the nature of the balance of the game. There are way too many cheeses and its way easier to cheese and win. I like the point that the fellow made about typing fast in one language doesnt meant you can type fast in another. The only skill that translates is typing fast. Theres no doubt the current top S-Class players in BW wont suceed in sc2, it just may take some time. All you BW die hard fanboys just cant accept that your "bw gods" have the potential to lose at the beginning in sc2.
To begin with, I agree with you. Flash, Bisu and co. won't just land in SC2 scene and beat the shit out of everyone... that's pretty obvious. It will take time until they feel themselves comfortable with the game, then we might see dominance.
In fact, I believe SC2 will chop out their inhuman skills and put them with normal good players like MVP, DRG and etc. The reason has been explained by Day[9] with frisbees and baseballs.
All we can do is to wait, nothing more. While SC2 fans wait anxiously for their scene to be legitimized, BW fans struggle in sorrow because the scene is fading away.
On April 26 2012 23:34 fabiano wrote: What's up mate?
To begin with, I agree with you. Flash, Bisu and co. won't just land in SC2 scene and beat the shit out of everyone... that's pretty obvious. It will take time until they feel themselves comfortable with the game, then we might see dominance.
In fact, I believe SC2 will chop out their inhuman skills and put them with normal good players like MVP, DRG and etc. The reason has been explained by Day[9] with frisbees and baseballs.
All we can do is to wait, nothing more. While SC2 fans wait anxiously for their scene to be legitimized, BW fans struggle in sorrow because the scene is fading away.
I just dont like how a lotta die hard BW fans completely discredit SC2. AFAIK the games really are 2 different games, and the ONLY link is the fucking name "starcarft". As for what you said about BW inhuman skills, i dont think those will be chopped out. For example me personally (not a BW die hard, watched some of it) i would rather see Flash play zerg because i thing those "inhuman" skills can be shown with that race (mechanics pretty much). I wanna see Bisu play Protoss, cuz its fucking broken in sc2 and i really do wanna see his "inhuman" skill, cuz i think with his level of mechanics, skill and strategy he could really make some "inhuman" plays in sc2! I dont really think that bw inhuman skills "disappear" because even though on a metagame level the 2 are completely different, when it comes down to BASICS micro, macro and overall RTS, the skills do transfer over well. In fact, ive always thought if some CHESS GRANDMASTERS (far fetched i know)played bw OR sc2 i wonder how far just "strategy" can take them. In the same way i wonder how far "bw skills" will take bw pros in sc2.
On April 26 2012 17:56 eviltomahawk wrote: For all those Protoss fans, there will always be HoeJJa and KT to cheer for if Bisu ends up betraying his loyalty for Aiur. He will become the first Protoss bonjwa.
This is so awkward to see those icons tied up with those names, feels so wrong.
And guys, for gods sake, ignore the (ignorant part of the) SC2 fellas. Arguing with them is like arguing with a wall. Just let them babble whatever bullshit they want so they can feel they have achieved something.
So, if a retarded SC2 fan makes a retarded post, ignore, if an intelligent SC2 fan makes a post with good points, then we have someone who is actually worth talking to.
have u even watched sc2? the game is completely imbalanced and pretty retarded. this is coming from a "retarded sc2 fan". All that most of the sc2 fans are saying is, the "stomp" wont be instant cuz in SC2 ANY player can lose to ANYONE. Its just the nature of the balance of the game. There are way too many cheeses and its way easier to cheese and win. I like the point that the fellow made about typing fast in one language doesnt meant you can type fast in another. The only skill that translates is typing fast. Theres no doubt the current top S-Class players in BW wont suceed in sc2, it just may take some time. All you BW die hard fanboys just cant accept that your "bw gods" have the potential to lose at the beginning in sc2.
I dare any sc2 professional players to play b05 on any of our proleague map and choose all the maps you want and see if you gets crush by them or not . On another note if kespa was actually that ignorant and actually believe their players are at the capability of gsl fully grown professionals they have right now they would have sent flash,bisu,stork and jaedong to gsl right now . Because after all if they are good in bw they must be good in sc2 ? Nah they ain't doing that they are going to start from the basics letting their player get familiar with the game before setting them out to the wolves out there .
On April 26 2012 17:56 eviltomahawk wrote: For all those Protoss fans, there will always be HoeJJa and KT to cheer for if Bisu ends up betraying his loyalty for Aiur. He will become the first Protoss bonjwa.
This is so awkward to see those icons tied up with those names, feels so wrong.
And guys, for gods sake, ignore the (ignorant part of the) SC2 fellas. Arguing with them is like arguing with a wall. Just let them babble whatever bullshit they want so they can feel they have achieved something.
So, if a retarded SC2 fan makes a retarded post, ignore, if an intelligent SC2 fan makes a post with good points, then we have someone who is actually worth talking to.
have u even watched sc2? the game is completely imbalanced and pretty retarded. this is coming from a "retarded sc2 fan". All that most of the sc2 fans are saying is, the "stomp" wont be instant cuz in SC2 ANY player can lose to ANYONE. Its just the nature of the balance of the game. There are way too many cheeses and its way easier to cheese and win. I like the point that the fellow made about typing fast in one language doesnt meant you can type fast in another. The only skill that translates is typing fast. Theres no doubt the current top S-Class players in BW wont suceed in sc2, it just may take some time. All you BW die hard fanboys just cant accept that your "bw gods" have the potential to lose at the beginning in sc2.
I dare any sc2 professional players to play b05 on any of our proleague map and choose all the maps you want and see if you gets crush by them or not . On another note if kespa was actually that ignorant and actually believe their players are at the capability of gsl fully grown professionals they have right now they would have sent flash,bisu,stork and jaedong to gsl right now . Because after all if they are good in bw they must be good in sc2 ? Nah they ain't doing that they are going to start from the basics letting their player get familiar with the game before setting them out to the wolves out there .
how is that relevant? the discussion is BW players moving TO sc2, there is no desire for the other way around. sure u can say that bw players would win. IDC, cuz as far as im concerned right now, your gods are coming over to this NEW game not vice versa which means whatever they did in BW DOESNT MATTER because BW is one game and SC2 is ANOTHER. 2 compeltely different games. why try to compare this champion to that champion? true the skills transfer somewhat but until i SEE flash win 3 GSLs ( this shouldnt take long btw ) BW players are NOT better at SC2 then current SC2 pros.
On April 26 2012 17:56 eviltomahawk wrote: For all those Protoss fans, there will always be HoeJJa and KT to cheer for if Bisu ends up betraying his loyalty for Aiur. He will become the first Protoss bonjwa.
This is so awkward to see those icons tied up with those names, feels so wrong.
And guys, for gods sake, ignore the (ignorant part of the) SC2 fellas. Arguing with them is like arguing with a wall. Just let them babble whatever bullshit they want so they can feel they have achieved something.
So, if a retarded SC2 fan makes a retarded post, ignore, if an intelligent SC2 fan makes a post with good points, then we have someone who is actually worth talking to.
have u even watched sc2? the game is completely imbalanced and pretty retarded. this is coming from a "retarded sc2 fan". All that most of the sc2 fans are saying is, the "stomp" wont be instant cuz in SC2 ANY player can lose to ANYONE. Its just the nature of the balance of the game. There are way too many cheeses and its way easier to cheese and win. I like the point that the fellow made about typing fast in one language doesnt meant you can type fast in another. The only skill that translates is typing fast. Theres no doubt the current top S-Class players in BW wont suceed in sc2, it just may take some time. All you BW die hard fanboys just cant accept that your "bw gods" have the potential to lose at the beginning in sc2.
I dare any sc2 professional players to play b05 on any of our proleague map and choose all the maps you want and see if you gets crush by them or not . On another note if kespa was actually that ignorant and actually believe their players are at the capability of gsl fully grown professionals they have right now they would have sent flash,bisu,stork and jaedong to gsl right now . Because after all if they are good in bw they must be good in sc2 ? Nah they ain't doing that they are going to start from the basics letting their player get familiar with the game before setting them out to the wolves out there .
how is that relevant? the discussion is BW players moving TO sc2, there is no desire for the other way around. sure u can say that bw players would win. IDC, cuz as far as im concerned right now, your gods are coming over to this NEW game not vice versa which means whatever they did in BW DOESNT MATTER because BW is one game and SC2 is ANOTHER. 2 compeltely different games. why try to compare this champion to that champion? true the skills transfer somewhat but until i SEE flash win 3 GSLs ( this shouldnt take long btw ) BW players are NOT better at SC2 then current SC2 pros.
I don't see the point of you posting caps on your arguments it does not help that the whole paragraph is full of arguments that does not seem to be coherent at all . You say you don't really care and yet you are spending time trying to convinced people that our bw player wont succeed in sc2 .
On April 26 2012 17:56 eviltomahawk wrote: For all those Protoss fans, there will always be HoeJJa and KT to cheer for if Bisu ends up betraying his loyalty for Aiur. He will become the first Protoss bonjwa.
This is so awkward to see those icons tied up with those names, feels so wrong.
And guys, for gods sake, ignore the (ignorant part of the) SC2 fellas. Arguing with them is like arguing with a wall. Just let them babble whatever bullshit they want so they can feel they have achieved something.
So, if a retarded SC2 fan makes a retarded post, ignore, if an intelligent SC2 fan makes a post with good points, then we have someone who is actually worth talking to.
have u even watched sc2? the game is completely imbalanced and pretty retarded.
Someone make a Conspiracy Bisu about fake statistics please.
I've been watching SC2 again, just to keep up to date.
And what I've seen is that if a stalker gets caught by a marauder with concussive shells, no micro can help you out. If your roaches get caught by FF, no micro can help you out. If your zealots get caught by FG, no micro can help you out.
Where all the micro has gone then? Well, it went to a step before those spells are cast: you have to avoid to be in range of that shit. What does it means? It means less epic micro battles, instead more back and forth army dance where nothing actually happens, and that's one less thing to expectators to find exciting.
Notice that in BW units were microed individually, even in big battles, making it really exciting to the expectator. In SC2 you don't micro a single marauder, you stutter step 15 of them at the same time. This is why the only exciting thing in SC2 is baneling vs marine micro, because you have to spread all your units at once, and not stutter step shit.
Also, as a protoss player, you actually get punished for spreading out your army, you have to keep it all in one single death ball. The warp prism is a great harass helper units, but protoss has no harass units to use, except for the storm drops.
So, where would Bisu use his godly multitasking abilities? The only race I think that he can make use of it is terran with multi drops and marine splitting. In fact, if Bisu gets a hang of SC2 terran, we might see how incredibly broken MMM+stim can be in the hands of the likes like Bisu.
In the end, SC2 has very little space to the players use their superior multitask skills, but there is some at least.
To finish it up, I would like to mention that those Xel'Naga towers must be removed from the game, since they make the games even less exciting for discouraging players to flank.
On April 26 2012 17:56 eviltomahawk wrote: For all those Protoss fans, there will always be HoeJJa and KT to cheer for if Bisu ends up betraying his loyalty for Aiur. He will become the first Protoss bonjwa.
This is so awkward to see those icons tied up with those names, feels so wrong.
And guys, for gods sake, ignore the (ignorant part of the) SC2 fellas. Arguing with them is like arguing with a wall. Just let them babble whatever bullshit they want so they can feel they have achieved something.
So, if a retarded SC2 fan makes a retarded post, ignore, if an intelligent SC2 fan makes a post with good points, then we have someone who is actually worth talking to.
have u even watched sc2? the game is completely imbalanced and pretty retarded.
Someone make a Conspiracy Bisu about fake statistics please.
hey dont misquote me . i love sc2 but i know that in terms of balance and game play it is still lacking. Believe it or not, while i did watch some BW before becoming a sc2 fan, SC2 made me APPRECIATE bw MORE.
On April 26 2012 17:56 eviltomahawk wrote: For all those Protoss fans, there will always be HoeJJa and KT to cheer for if Bisu ends up betraying his loyalty for Aiur. He will become the first Protoss bonjwa.
This is so awkward to see those icons tied up with those names, feels so wrong.
And guys, for gods sake, ignore the (ignorant part of the) SC2 fellas. Arguing with them is like arguing with a wall. Just let them babble whatever bullshit they want so they can feel they have achieved something.
So, if a retarded SC2 fan makes a retarded post, ignore, if an intelligent SC2 fan makes a post with good points, then we have someone who is actually worth talking to.
have u even watched sc2? the game is completely imbalanced and pretty retarded. this is coming from a "retarded sc2 fan". All that most of the sc2 fans are saying is, the "stomp" wont be instant cuz in SC2 ANY player can lose to ANYONE. Its just the nature of the balance of the game. There are way too many cheeses and its way easier to cheese and win. I like the point that the fellow made about typing fast in one language doesnt meant you can type fast in another. The only skill that translates is typing fast. Theres no doubt the current top S-Class players in BW wont suceed in sc2, it just may take some time. All you BW die hard fanboys just cant accept that your "bw gods" have the potential to lose at the beginning in sc2.
I dare any sc2 professional players to play b05 on any of our proleague map and choose all the maps you want and see if you gets crush by them or not . On another note if kespa was actually that ignorant and actually believe their players are at the capability of gsl fully grown professionals they have right now they would have sent flash,bisu,stork and jaedong to gsl right now . Because after all if they are good in bw they must be good in sc2 ? Nah they ain't doing that they are going to start from the basics letting their player get familiar with the game before setting them out to the wolves out there .
how is that relevant? the discussion is BW players moving TO sc2, there is no desire for the other way around. sure u can say that bw players would win. IDC, cuz as far as im concerned right now, your gods are coming over to this NEW game not vice versa which means whatever they did in BW DOESNT MATTER because BW is one game and SC2 is ANOTHER. 2 compeltely different games. why try to compare this champion to that champion? true the skills transfer somewhat but until i SEE flash win 3 GSLs ( this shouldnt take long btw ) BW players are NOT better at SC2 then current SC2 pros.
I don't see the point of you posting caps on your arguments it does not help that the whole paragraph is full of arguments that does not seem to be coherent at all . You say you don't really care and yet you are spending time trying to convinced people that our bw player wont succeed in sc2 .
Can't wait for your next reply.
as for you, the arguements are all valid. yours are the ones that are incoherent. If you dont see the point of the caps, then you cant read in english, as it is pretty obvious the caps are for emphasis on important points. you tried to argue that if any sc2 player played a bw pro he'd lose regardless of the situation. how is that in any way valid or relevant? we are talking about bw pros moving to sc2 not the other way around. you are exactly what the community does not need die hard bw fan that doesnt know english and spews drama and shit everywhere. NO WHERE did i saw bw players wont succeed in sc2. if u read i even said "until i SEE flash win 3 GSLs ( this shouldnt take long btw ) ". notice how i said it wouldnt take flash long cuz i know he has the skill to do it. So before you wait for my reply, or type up another reply why dont you learn some fucking english and then reading comprehension while youre at it.
On April 26 2012 17:56 eviltomahawk wrote: For all those Protoss fans, there will always be HoeJJa and KT to cheer for if Bisu ends up betraying his loyalty for Aiur. He will become the first Protoss bonjwa.
This is so awkward to see those icons tied up with those names, feels so wrong.
And guys, for gods sake, ignore the (ignorant part of the) SC2 fellas. Arguing with them is like arguing with a wall. Just let them babble whatever bullshit they want so they can feel they have achieved something.
So, if a retarded SC2 fan makes a retarded post, ignore, if an intelligent SC2 fan makes a post with good points, then we have someone who is actually worth talking to.
have u even watched sc2? the game is completely imbalanced and pretty retarded. this is coming from a "retarded sc2 fan". All that most of the sc2 fans are saying is, the "stomp" wont be instant cuz in SC2 ANY player can lose to ANYONE. Its just the nature of the balance of the game. There are way too many cheeses and its way easier to cheese and win. I like the point that the fellow made about typing fast in one language doesnt meant you can type fast in another. The only skill that translates is typing fast. Theres no doubt the current top S-Class players in BW wont suceed in sc2, it just may take some time. All you BW die hard fanboys just cant accept that your "bw gods" have the potential to lose at the beginning in sc2.
I'm actually fairly certain there's a higher portion of the 'die hard BW fanboys' who think that the top players in BW will be less successful in sc2 due to the nature of starcraft 2. I don't know who you're yelling at, but I struggled to piece together the main points from your posts following this one.
If anything I'd actually say there is a higher percentage of the pure sc2 fans who think that TBLS will revolutionize the scene than BW ones.
On April 26 2012 17:56 eviltomahawk wrote: For all those Protoss fans, there will always be HoeJJa and KT to cheer for if Bisu ends up betraying his loyalty for Aiur. He will become the first Protoss bonjwa.
This is so awkward to see those icons tied up with those names, feels so wrong.
And guys, for gods sake, ignore the (ignorant part of the) SC2 fellas. Arguing with them is like arguing with a wall. Just let them babble whatever bullshit they want so they can feel they have achieved something.
So, if a retarded SC2 fan makes a retarded post, ignore, if an intelligent SC2 fan makes a post with good points, then we have someone who is actually worth talking to.
have u even watched sc2? the game is completely imbalanced and pretty retarded.
Someone make a Conspiracy Bisu about fake statistics please.
hey dont misquote me . i love sc2 but i know that in terms of balance and game play it is still lacking. Believe it or not, while i did watch some BW before becoming a sc2 fan, SC2 made me APPRECIATE bw MORE.
On April 26 2012 17:56 eviltomahawk wrote: For all those Protoss fans, there will always be HoeJJa and KT to cheer for if Bisu ends up betraying his loyalty for Aiur. He will become the first Protoss bonjwa.
This is so awkward to see those icons tied up with those names, feels so wrong.
And guys, for gods sake, ignore the (ignorant part of the) SC2 fellas. Arguing with them is like arguing with a wall. Just let them babble whatever bullshit they want so they can feel they have achieved something.
So, if a retarded SC2 fan makes a retarded post, ignore, if an intelligent SC2 fan makes a post with good points, then we have someone who is actually worth talking to.
have u even watched sc2? the game is completely imbalanced and pretty retarded. this is coming from a "retarded sc2 fan". All that most of the sc2 fans are saying is, the "stomp" wont be instant cuz in SC2 ANY player can lose to ANYONE. Its just the nature of the balance of the game. There are way too many cheeses and its way easier to cheese and win. I like the point that the fellow made about typing fast in one language doesnt meant you can type fast in another. The only skill that translates is typing fast. Theres no doubt the current top S-Class players in BW wont suceed in sc2, it just may take some time. All you BW die hard fanboys just cant accept that your "bw gods" have the potential to lose at the beginning in sc2.
I dare any sc2 professional players to play b05 on any of our proleague map and choose all the maps you want and see if you gets crush by them or not . On another note if kespa was actually that ignorant and actually believe their players are at the capability of gsl fully grown professionals they have right now they would have sent flash,bisu,stork and jaedong to gsl right now . Because after all if they are good in bw they must be good in sc2 ? Nah they ain't doing that they are going to start from the basics letting their player get familiar with the game before setting them out to the wolves out there .
how is that relevant? the discussion is BW players moving TO sc2, there is no desire for the other way around. sure u can say that bw players would win. IDC, cuz as far as im concerned right now, your gods are coming over to this NEW game not vice versa which means whatever they did in BW DOESNT MATTER because BW is one game and SC2 is ANOTHER. 2 compeltely different games. why try to compare this champion to that champion? true the skills transfer somewhat but until i SEE flash win 3 GSLs ( this shouldnt take long btw ) BW players are NOT better at SC2 then current SC2 pros.
I don't see the point of you posting caps on your arguments it does not help that the whole paragraph is full of arguments that does not seem to be coherent at all . You say you don't really care and yet you are spending time trying to convinced people that our bw player wont succeed in sc2 .
Can't wait for your next reply.
as for you, the arguements are all valid. yours are the ones that are incoherent. If you dont see the point of the caps, then you cant read in english, as it is pretty obvious the caps are for emphasis on important points. you tried to argue that if any sc2 player played a bw pro he'd lose regardless of the situation. how is that in any way valid or relevant? we are talking about bw pros moving to sc2 not the other way around. you are exactly what the community does not need die hard bw fan that doesnt know english. NO WHERE did i saw bw players wont succeed in sc2. if u read i even said "until i SEE flash win 3 GSLs ( this shouldnt take long btw ) ". notice how i said it wouldnt take flash long cuz i know he has the skill to do it. So before you wait for my reply, or type up another reply why dont you learn some fucking english and then reading comprehension while youre at it.
Heh trying to pick at me for having poor english, just look at the way you spell man you can't even spell "you" without it being "U" . Come on kid give it up . Also people don't capitalized every word to get their point across but I guess this is the internet there is no grammar rule in effect here.
On April 26 2012 17:56 eviltomahawk wrote: For all those Protoss fans, there will always be HoeJJa and KT to cheer for if Bisu ends up betraying his loyalty for Aiur. He will become the first Protoss bonjwa.
This is so awkward to see those icons tied up with those names, feels so wrong.
And guys, for gods sake, ignore the (ignorant part of the) SC2 fellas. Arguing with them is like arguing with a wall. Just let them babble whatever bullshit they want so they can feel they have achieved something.
So, if a retarded SC2 fan makes a retarded post, ignore, if an intelligent SC2 fan makes a post with good points, then we have someone who is actually worth talking to.
have u even watched sc2? the game is completely imbalanced and pretty retarded. this is coming from a "retarded sc2 fan". All that most of the sc2 fans are saying is, the "stomp" wont be instant cuz in SC2 ANY player can lose to ANYONE. Its just the nature of the balance of the game. There are way too many cheeses and its way easier to cheese and win. I like the point that the fellow made about typing fast in one language doesnt meant you can type fast in another. The only skill that translates is typing fast. Theres no doubt the current top S-Class players in BW wont suceed in sc2, it just may take some time. All you BW die hard fanboys just cant accept that your "bw gods" have the potential to lose at the beginning in sc2.
I'm actually fairly certain there's a higher portion of the 'die hard BW fanboys' who think that the top players in BW will be less successful in sc2 due to the nature of starcraft 2. I don't know who you're yelling at, but I struggled to piece together the main points from your posts following this one.
If anything I'd actually say there is a higher percentage of the pure sc2 fans who think that TBLS will revolutionize the scene than BW ones.
hey, im one of those sc2 fans that think TBLS will revolutionize the scene . the thing is,most bw fans are expecting their players to decimate the sc2 immediately. I just dont think this will happen and i personally cant wait to seee bw players play sc2. even if they dont "revolutionize the scene", i just want a higher level of competition which would lead to the metagame changes the balance etc and if BW players ca bring that im all for it.
Heh trying to pick at me for having poor english, just look at the way you spell man you can't even spell "you" without it being "U" . Come on kid give it up . Also people don't capitalized every word to get their point across but I guess this is the internet there is no grammar rule in effect here.
i didnt pick on your english. you told me that my argument was incoherent and didnt make sense which was clearly not the case. in fact you misread what i typed, fired back an angry reply and when i point out your mistakes, you miraculously turn into the grammer police. If you knew english you wouldve read everything properly and not twist my words.
By the way, you are using the word metagame incorrectly.
Metagame is not related to strategies and trends, but to use outside of the game information, like we know IdrA will not cheese, so we don't need to cannon first.
Heh trying to pick at me for having poor english, just look at the way you spell man you can't even spell "you" without it being "U" . Come on kid give it up . Also people don't capitalized every word to get their point across but I guess this is the internet there is no grammar rule in effect here.
i didnt pick on your english. you told me that my argument was incoherent and didnt make sense which was clearly not the case. in fact you misread what i typed, fired back an angry reply and when i point out your mistakes, you miraculously turn into the grammer police. If you knew english you wouldve read everything properly and not twist my words.
It's hard to read your words when they are all jumbled in this kind of for example " sad I AM not HAPPY because Sc2 is GOOD IDC about anything else my words are GOLD" . No offence, but no one stated here that bw pro's will start dominating sc2 right off the bat .
On April 26 2012 17:56 eviltomahawk wrote: For all those Protoss fans, there will always be HoeJJa and KT to cheer for if Bisu ends up betraying his loyalty for Aiur. He will become the first Protoss bonjwa.
This is so awkward to see those icons tied up with those names, feels so wrong.
And guys, for gods sake, ignore the (ignorant part of the) SC2 fellas. Arguing with them is like arguing with a wall. Just let them babble whatever bullshit they want so they can feel they have achieved something.
So, if a retarded SC2 fan makes a retarded post, ignore, if an intelligent SC2 fan makes a post with good points, then we have someone who is actually worth talking to.
have u even watched sc2? the game is completely imbalanced and pretty retarded. this is coming from a "retarded sc2 fan". All that most of the sc2 fans are saying is, the "stomp" wont be instant cuz in SC2 ANY player can lose to ANYONE. Its just the nature of the balance of the game. There are way too many cheeses and its way easier to cheese and win. I like the point that the fellow made about typing fast in one language doesnt meant you can type fast in another. The only skill that translates is typing fast. Theres no doubt the current top S-Class players in BW wont suceed in sc2, it just may take some time. All you BW die hard fanboys just cant accept that your "bw gods" have the potential to lose at the beginning in sc2.
I'm actually fairly certain there's a higher portion of the 'die hard BW fanboys' who think that the top players in BW will be less successful in sc2 due to the nature of starcraft 2. I don't know who you're yelling at, but I struggled to piece together the main points from your posts following this one.
If anything I'd actually say there is a higher percentage of the pure sc2 fans who think that TBLS will revolutionize the scene than BW ones.
hey, im one of those sc2 fans that think TBLS will revolutionize the scene . the thing is,most bw fans are expecting their players to decimate the sc2 immediately. I just dont think this will happen and i personally cant wait to seee bw players play sc2. even if they dont "revolutionize the scene", i just want a higher level of competition which would lead to the metagame changes the balance etc and if BW players ca bring that im all for it.
Not at all, we are expecting the level of work ethic and dedication to a video game that former top tier BW players have shown. Flash got a surgery and endured personal physical and emotional pain just so he can keep playing, a surgery on a condition that was aggravated because he was playing said video game, and he's got the scar to prove it. BW "fanboys" are upset because this isn't just BW players going to play SC2, this is BW becoming irrelevant all together. When Michael Jordan swapped to baseball, Michael Jordan fans were upset, but the level of emotional outburst would have been astronomically higher if Michael Jordan swapped to baseball because baseball was becoming the only professional sport out of basketball and baseball for arbituary financial reasons that the fans dont care about.
I don't know about mkp being the best terran player in sc2 . But if that was flash in broodwar playing versus a Zerg he would be on more bases than just 4 .... 4 freaking saturated bases man .. with that kind of cash flow and the smoke screen you are throwing up with your force on the move you could have at least another 2 more bases making it 6 to keep the war machine producing forever.
On April 27 2012 00:45 Sawamura wrote: I don't know about mkp being the best terran player in sc2 . But if that was flash in broodwar playing versus a Zerg he would be on more bases than just 4 .... 4 freaking saturated bases man .. with that kind of cash flow and the smoke screen you are throwing up with your force on the move you could have at least another 2 more bases making it 6 to keep the war machine producing forever.
SC2 is faster paced, I don't think it's a valid argument since it takes approx 1/2 your max population to fully saturate 4 bases in SC2, and for some races, especially zerg in BW, it could take up to or less than 100 pop of drones to operate optimally on 6.
On April 27 2012 00:45 Sawamura wrote: I don't know about mkp being the best terran player in sc2 . But if that was flash in broodwar playing versus a Zerg he would be on more bases than just 4 .... 4 freaking saturated bases man .. with that kind of cash flow and the smoke screen you are throwing up with your force on the move you could have at least another 2 more bases making it 6 to keep the war machine producing forever.
SC2 is faster paced, I don't think it's a valid argument since it takes approx 1/2 your max population to fully saturate 4 bases in SC2, and for some races, especially zerg in BW, it could take up to or less than 100 pop of drones to operate optimally on 6.
Fungal growth on marines are much worse than plague man ... At least plague doesn't kill units but fungal is really too good against bio or any units out there . Also sooner or later your minerals will run out and that extra base that has been running even for a while will help out your macro in a way at least for a while .
I do agree that units die really fast in sc2 ..... damn marines look like they were made out of butter.
On April 27 2012 00:45 Sawamura wrote: I don't know about mkp being the best terran player in sc2 . But if that was flash in broodwar playing versus a Zerg he would be on more bases than just 4 .... 4 freaking saturated bases man .. with that kind of cash flow and the smoke screen you are throwing up with your force on the move you could have at least another 2 more bases making it 6 to keep the war machine producing forever.
SC2 is faster paced, I don't think it's a valid argument since it takes approx 1/2 your max population to fully saturate 4 bases in SC2, and for some races, especially zerg in BW, it could take up to or less than 100 pop of drones to operate optimally on 6.
Fungal growth on marines are much worse than plague man ... At least plague doesn't kill units but fungal is really too good against bio or any units out there . Also sooner or later your minerals will run out and that extra base that has been running even for a while will help out your macro in a way at least for a while .
I do agree that units die really fast in sc2 ..... damn marines look like they were made out of butter.
I'm really confused about why your replying about BW caster units vs SC2 caster units lol. Alot of BW strategies that revolve around BW units and compositions being slow and the game being slower paced are gone in SC2 because of pacing (zerg taking faster 3rd / 4th far away to split the terran army, protosses taking >4 bases to split terran mech, etc), but the faster pace also lends itself to new strategies in SC2, unfortunately all we've really seen out of it is some basic drop play with baneling / marine medivac / immortal, flanking, or other strategic manuvers that we've already seen in SC1.
On April 27 2012 00:45 Sawamura wrote: I don't know about mkp being the best terran player in sc2 . But if that was flash in broodwar playing versus a Zerg he would be on more bases than just 4 .... 4 freaking saturated bases man .. with that kind of cash flow and the smoke screen you are throwing up with your force on the move you could have at least another 2 more bases making it 6 to keep the war machine producing forever.
SC2 is faster paced, I don't think it's a valid argument since it takes approx 1/2 your max population to fully saturate 4 bases in SC2, and for some races, especially zerg in BW, it could take up to or less than 100 pop of drones to operate optimally on 6.
Fungal growth on marines are much worse than plague man ... At least plague doesn't kill units but fungal is really too good against bio or any units out there . Also sooner or later your minerals will run out and that extra base that has been running even for a while will help out your macro in a way at least for a while .
I do agree that units die really fast in sc2 ..... damn marines look like they were made out of butter.
I'm really confused about why your replying about BW caster units vs SC2 caster units lol.
I am sorry I am just ranting about how good sc2 spell caster for zergs seems to be just basing on the vods that I have watch ..
On April 26 2012 22:52 MDMA_ wrote: lol @ all the "whoever is good @ sc2, was somewhat, somewhere good @ bw or on a bw pro team. If there are top players that didnt play BW they are outliers"
ROFL. how about polt + all the wc3 players doing well?
On April 26 2012 20:16 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Does not translate straight into SC2: Every SC2 player who was better in BW is a top player. Even if you point at one example where it doesn't apply, in statistics we call that an outlier.
All I'm saying is you're ignorant.
aren't you being ignorant yourself by calling every top level sc2 player who hasnt played bw as "outliers". Basically just a sneaky way of discrediting the game, saying its shit and BW players will stop cuz BW takes skill? thats the message conveyed no?
You need to get your eyes cleaned. There's a difference between "all good BW pros are doing well in SC2" and "all pros doing well in SC2 were also good at BW." It's like the first thing you learn in logic.
YOU need to get your eyes cleared. "Every SC2 player who was better in BW is a top player". Stephano was not a better BW player, nor were any of the wc3 players.
is forGG a top player in SC2 yet?i don't really follow but he switched and jioned SlayerS or?
On April 27 2012 00:45 Sawamura wrote: I don't know about mkp being the best terran player in sc2 . But if that was flash in broodwar playing versus a Zerg he would be on more bases than just 4 .... 4 freaking saturated bases man .. with that kind of cash flow and the smoke screen you are throwing up with your force on the move you could have at least another 2 more bases making it 6 to keep the war machine producing forever.
SC2 is faster paced, I don't think it's a valid argument since it takes approx 1/2 your max population to fully saturate 4 bases in SC2, and for some races, especially zerg in BW, it could take up to or less than 100 pop of drones to operate optimally on 6.
Fungal growth on marines are much worse than plague man ... At least plague doesn't kill units but fungal is really too good against bio or any units out there . Also sooner or later your minerals will run out and that extra base that has been running even for a while will help out your macro in a way at least for a while .
I do agree that units die really fast in sc2 ..... damn marines look like they were made out of butter.
I'm really confused about why your replying about BW caster units vs SC2 caster units lol.
I am sorry I am just ranting about how good sc2 spell caster for zergs seems to be just basing on the vods that I have watch ..
BW spells are alot more powerful on paper and in reality, it's just that because casters are easier to control in SC2 because of the improved AI people can mass produce them, you rarely ever see more than 3-4 defilers / arbiters on the map at the same time (with a specific instance to the contrary being science vessels in TvZ, but it's easily punished and extremely crucial to your army and it takes a long time to get up to a high number), but you get to see alot more than that in infestors / ghosts / high templars or sentries.
On April 26 2012 22:52 MDMA_ wrote: lol @ all the "whoever is good @ sc2, was somewhat, somewhere good @ bw or on a bw pro team. If there are top players that didnt play BW they are outliers"
ROFL. how about polt + all the wc3 players doing well?
On April 26 2012 20:16 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Does not translate straight into SC2: Every SC2 player who was better in BW is a top player. Even if you point at one example where it doesn't apply, in statistics we call that an outlier.
All I'm saying is you're ignorant.
aren't you being ignorant yourself by calling every top level sc2 player who hasnt played bw as "outliers". Basically just a sneaky way of discrediting the game, saying its shit and BW players will stop cuz BW takes skill? thats the message conveyed no?
You need to get your eyes cleaned. There's a difference between "all good BW pros are doing well in SC2" and "all pros doing well in SC2 were also good at BW." It's like the first thing you learn in logic.
YOU need to get your eyes cleared. "Every SC2 player who was better in BW is a top player". Stephano was not a better BW player, nor were any of the wc3 players.
is forGG a top player in SC2 yet?i don't really follow but he switched and jioned SlayerS or?
No, he's shown some promise but didn't make it far or even stablized in Code S yet, he's on oGs.
On April 27 2012 00:45 Sawamura wrote: I don't know about mkp being the best terran player in sc2 . But if that was flash in broodwar playing versus a Zerg he would be on more bases than just 4 .... 4 freaking saturated bases man .. with that kind of cash flow and the smoke screen you are throwing up with your force on the move you could have at least another 2 more bases making it 6 to keep the war machine producing forever.
SC2 is faster paced, I don't think it's a valid argument since it takes approx 1/2 your max population to fully saturate 4 bases in SC2, and for some races, especially zerg in BW, it could take up to or less than 100 pop of drones to operate optimally on 6.
Fungal growth on marines are much worse than plague man ... At least plague doesn't kill units but fungal is really too good against bio or any units out there . Also sooner or later your minerals will run out and that extra base that has been running even for a while will help out your macro in a way at least for a while .
I do agree that units die really fast in sc2 ..... damn marines look like they were made out of butter.
I'm really confused about why your replying about BW caster units vs SC2 caster units lol.
I am sorry I am just ranting about how good sc2 spell caster for zergs seems to be just basing on the vods that I have watch ..
If i had to single out a single unit which ruined SC2 it'd be the medivac lmao.
On April 27 2012 00:45 Sawamura wrote: I don't know about mkp being the best terran player in sc2 . But if that was flash in broodwar playing versus a Zerg he would be on more bases than just 4 .... 4 freaking saturated bases man .. with that kind of cash flow and the smoke screen you are throwing up with your force on the move you could have at least another 2 more bases making it 6 to keep the war machine producing forever.
SC2 is faster paced, I don't think it's a valid argument since it takes approx 1/2 your max population to fully saturate 4 bases in SC2, and for some races, especially zerg in BW, it could take up to or less than 100 pop of drones to operate optimally on 6.
Fungal growth on marines are much worse than plague man ... At least plague doesn't kill units but fungal is really too good against bio or any units out there . Also sooner or later your minerals will run out and that extra base that has been running even for a while will help out your macro in a way at least for a while .
I do agree that units die really fast in sc2 ..... damn marines look like they were made out of butter.
I'm really confused about why your replying about BW caster units vs SC2 caster units lol.
I am sorry I am just ranting about how good sc2 spell caster for zergs seems to be just basing on the vods that I have watch ..
Meh, no zerg unit has a dark swarm equivalent, and it's pretty easy to kill infestors with the other spellcasters, which is not the case in BW
On April 27 2012 00:45 Sawamura wrote: I don't know about mkp being the best terran player in sc2 . But if that was flash in broodwar playing versus a Zerg he would be on more bases than just 4 .... 4 freaking saturated bases man .. with that kind of cash flow and the smoke screen you are throwing up with your force on the move you could have at least another 2 more bases making it 6 to keep the war machine producing forever.
SC2 is faster paced, I don't think it's a valid argument since it takes approx 1/2 your max population to fully saturate 4 bases in SC2, and for some races, especially zerg in BW, it could take up to or less than 100 pop of drones to operate optimally on 6.
Fungal growth on marines are much worse than plague man ... At least plague doesn't kill units but fungal is really too good against bio or any units out there . Also sooner or later your minerals will run out and that extra base that has been running even for a while will help out your macro in a way at least for a while .
I do agree that units die really fast in sc2 ..... damn marines look like they were made out of butter.
I'm really confused about why your replying about BW caster units vs SC2 caster units lol.
I am sorry I am just ranting about how good sc2 spell caster for zergs seems to be just basing on the vods that I have watch ..
If i had to single out a single unit which ruined SC2 it'd be the medivac lmao.
Yeah I can see why you are saying that people can just tech to 1 racks wall with supply depot make factory and starport and produce medivac and instant mobility is in your hand and not only can It fly it can heal at the same time . But how does medivac kill sc2 ? It takes time to build one single dropship with healing ability .
On April 26 2012 22:52 MDMA_ wrote: lol @ all the "whoever is good @ sc2, was somewhat, somewhere good @ bw or on a bw pro team. If there are top players that didnt play BW they are outliers"
ROFL. how about polt + all the wc3 players doing well?
On April 26 2012 20:16 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Does not translate straight into SC2: Every SC2 player who was better in BW is a top player. Even if you point at one example where it doesn't apply, in statistics we call that an outlier.
All I'm saying is you're ignorant.
aren't you being ignorant yourself by calling every top level sc2 player who hasnt played bw as "outliers". Basically just a sneaky way of discrediting the game, saying its shit and BW players will stop cuz BW takes skill? thats the message conveyed no?
You need to get your eyes cleaned. There's a difference between "all good BW pros are doing well in SC2" and "all pros doing well in SC2 were also good at BW." It's like the first thing you learn in logic.
YOU need to get your eyes cleared. "Every SC2 player who was better in BW is a top player". Stephano was not a better BW player, nor were any of the wc3 players.
Meh. Stephano's not that good, and the vast majority of good SC2 players supports the BW claim. This has nothing to do with wc3 or whatever. It's just showing the easy transition from one game to the other. I'm fine with wc3 players doing well in SC2. It's natural that there are people who are just naturally good at RTS games.........like Flash.
Maybe I have an underlying message, but that doesn't really matter.
At this point, people are just debating the same position. People are saying BW players are going to rape. And then other people are saying that BW players are going to rape later.
At this point, I think the one thing that the BW/SC2 community can mutually agree on is that BW players are going to stomp out the current crop in some unknown time span. There are of course people who still believe in a blossoming foreign scene, but to be honest as much as we were excited about potential foreign players in the past (there were people like Elky, Nony, Ret), it's not realistic to think that they're going to last that long.
On April 27 2012 00:45 Sawamura wrote: I don't know about mkp being the best terran player in sc2 . But if that was flash in broodwar playing versus a Zerg he would be on more bases than just 4 .... 4 freaking saturated bases man .. with that kind of cash flow and the smoke screen you are throwing up with your force on the move you could have at least another 2 more bases making it 6 to keep the war machine producing forever.
SC2 is faster paced, I don't think it's a valid argument since it takes approx 1/2 your max population to fully saturate 4 bases in SC2, and for some races, especially zerg in BW, it could take up to or less than 100 pop of drones to operate optimally on 6.
Fungal growth on marines are much worse than plague man ... At least plague doesn't kill units but fungal is really too good against bio or any units out there . Also sooner or later your minerals will run out and that extra base that has been running even for a while will help out your macro in a way at least for a while .
I do agree that units die really fast in sc2 ..... damn marines look like they were made out of butter.
I'm really confused about why your replying about BW caster units vs SC2 caster units lol.
I am sorry I am just ranting about how good sc2 spell caster for zergs seems to be just basing on the vods that I have watch ..
If i had to single out a single unit which ruined SC2 it'd be the medivac lmao.
Yeah I can see why you are saying that people can just tech to 1 racks wall with supply depot make factory and starport and produce medivac and instant mobility is in your hand and not only can It fly it can heal at the same time . But how does medivac kill sc2 ? It takes time to build one single dropship with healing ability .
It's not that the medivac is too powerful, it's that BW has effective counters for dropship play with marine / medic in the form of scourge in the only match up where it's commonly used (TvZ). If anything dropship play with vultures / mech in BW is alot more potent than drop play in SC2. It's true that the medivac is alot easier to micro than a marine / medic combination in almost all situations though.
On April 27 2012 00:45 Sawamura wrote: I don't know about mkp being the best terran player in sc2 . But if that was flash in broodwar playing versus a Zerg he would be on more bases than just 4 .... 4 freaking saturated bases man .. with that kind of cash flow and the smoke screen you are throwing up with your force on the move you could have at least another 2 more bases making it 6 to keep the war machine producing forever.
SC2 is faster paced, I don't think it's a valid argument since it takes approx 1/2 your max population to fully saturate 4 bases in SC2, and for some races, especially zerg in BW, it could take up to or less than 100 pop of drones to operate optimally on 6.
Fungal growth on marines are much worse than plague man ... At least plague doesn't kill units but fungal is really too good against bio or any units out there . Also sooner or later your minerals will run out and that extra base that has been running even for a while will help out your macro in a way at least for a while .
I do agree that units die really fast in sc2 ..... damn marines look like they were made out of butter.
I'm really confused about why your replying about BW caster units vs SC2 caster units lol.
I am sorry I am just ranting about how good sc2 spell caster for zergs seems to be just basing on the vods that I have watch ..
If i had to single out a single unit which ruined SC2 it'd be the medivac lmao.
Yeah I can see why you are saying that people can just tech to 1 racks wall with supply depot make factory and starport and produce medivac and instant mobility is in your hand and not only can It fly it can heal at the same time . But how does medivac kill sc2 ? It takes time to build one single dropship with healing ability .
It's not that the medivac is too powerful, it's that BW has effective counters for dropship play with marine / medic in the form of scourge in the only match up where it's commonly used (TvZ). If anything dropship play with vultures / mech in BW is alot more potent than drop play in SC2. It's true that the medivac is alot easier to micro than a marine / medic combination in almost all situations though.
On April 27 2012 00:45 Sawamura wrote: I don't know about mkp being the best terran player in sc2 . But if that was flash in broodwar playing versus a Zerg he would be on more bases than just 4 .... 4 freaking saturated bases man .. with that kind of cash flow and the smoke screen you are throwing up with your force on the move you could have at least another 2 more bases making it 6 to keep the war machine producing forever.
SC2 is faster paced, I don't think it's a valid argument since it takes approx 1/2 your max population to fully saturate 4 bases in SC2, and for some races, especially zerg in BW, it could take up to or less than 100 pop of drones to operate optimally on 6.
Fungal growth on marines are much worse than plague man ... At least plague doesn't kill units but fungal is really too good against bio or any units out there . Also sooner or later your minerals will run out and that extra base that has been running even for a while will help out your macro in a way at least for a while .
I do agree that units die really fast in sc2 ..... damn marines look like they were made out of butter.
I'm really confused about why your replying about BW caster units vs SC2 caster units lol.
I am sorry I am just ranting about how good sc2 spell caster for zergs seems to be just basing on the vods that I have watch ..
If i had to single out a single unit which ruined SC2 it'd be the medivac lmao.
Yeah I can see why you are saying that people can just tech to 1 racks wall with supply depot make factory and starport and produce medivac and instant mobility is in your hand and not only can It fly it can heal at the same time . But how does medivac kill sc2 ? It takes time to build one single dropship with healing ability .
It's not that the medivac is too powerful, it's that BW has effective counters for dropship play with marine / medic in the form of scourge in the only match up where it's commonly used (TvZ). If anything dropship play with vultures / mech in BW is alot more potent than drop play in SC2. It's true that the medivac is alot easier to micro than a marine / medic combination in almost all situations though.
No massive drop ship play for TvT in sc2 ?
Alot safer to just mech push since vikings are so relevant, not safe to take the risk, drops in TvT are usually for harassment and not doom drops. If you are playing Bio you can bio drop.
On April 27 2012 00:45 Sawamura wrote: I don't know about mkp being the best terran player in sc2 . But if that was flash in broodwar playing versus a Zerg he would be on more bases than just 4 .... 4 freaking saturated bases man .. with that kind of cash flow and the smoke screen you are throwing up with your force on the move you could have at least another 2 more bases making it 6 to keep the war machine producing forever.
SC2 is faster paced, I don't think it's a valid argument since it takes approx 1/2 your max population to fully saturate 4 bases in SC2, and for some races, especially zerg in BW, it could take up to or less than 100 pop of drones to operate optimally on 6.
Fungal growth on marines are much worse than plague man ... At least plague doesn't kill units but fungal is really too good against bio or any units out there . Also sooner or later your minerals will run out and that extra base that has been running even for a while will help out your macro in a way at least for a while .
I do agree that units die really fast in sc2 ..... damn marines look like they were made out of butter.
I'm really confused about why your replying about BW caster units vs SC2 caster units lol.
I am sorry I am just ranting about how good sc2 spell caster for zergs seems to be just basing on the vods that I have watch ..
If i had to single out a single unit which ruined SC2 it'd be the medivac lmao.
Yeah I can see why you are saying that people can just tech to 1 racks wall with supply depot make factory and starport and produce medivac and instant mobility is in your hand and not only can It fly it can heal at the same time . But how does medivac kill sc2 ? It takes time to build one single dropship with healing ability .
It's not that the medivac is too powerful, it's that BW has effective counters for dropship play with marine / medic in the form of scourge in the only match up where it's commonly used (TvZ). If anything dropship play with vultures / mech in BW is alot more potent than drop play in SC2. It's true that the medivac is alot easier to micro than a marine / medic combination in almost all situations though.
No massive drop ship play for TvT in sc2 ?
Alot safer to just mech push since vikings are so relevant, not safe to take the risk, drops in TvT are usually for harassment and not doom drops. If you are playing Bio you can bio drop.
SC2 is faster paced, I don't think it's a valid argument since it takes approx 1/2 your max population to fully saturate 4 bases in SC2, and for some races, especially zerg in BW, it could take up to or less than 100 pop of drones to operate optimally on 6.
Fungal growth on marines are much worse than plague man ... At least plague doesn't kill units but fungal is really too good against bio or any units out there . Also sooner or later your minerals will run out and that extra base that has been running even for a while will help out your macro in a way at least for a while .
I do agree that units die really fast in sc2 ..... damn marines look like they were made out of butter.
I'm really confused about why your replying about BW caster units vs SC2 caster units lol.
I am sorry I am just ranting about how good sc2 spell caster for zergs seems to be just basing on the vods that I have watch ..
If i had to single out a single unit which ruined SC2 it'd be the medivac lmao.
Yeah I can see why you are saying that people can just tech to 1 racks wall with supply depot make factory and starport and produce medivac and instant mobility is in your hand and not only can It fly it can heal at the same time . But how does medivac kill sc2 ? It takes time to build one single dropship with healing ability .
It's not that the medivac is too powerful, it's that BW has effective counters for dropship play with marine / medic in the form of scourge in the only match up where it's commonly used (TvZ). If anything dropship play with vultures / mech in BW is alot more potent than drop play in SC2. It's true that the medivac is alot easier to micro than a marine / medic combination in almost all situations though.
No massive drop ship play for TvT in sc2 ?
Alot safer to just mech push since vikings are so relevant, not safe to take the risk, drops in TvT are usually for harassment and not doom drops. If you are playing Bio you can bio drop.
my bw terran heart sank for a while ....
Problem with mass drop play is that because the game is so fast paced it usually results in a base trade scenario thats irrevocable (base trade scenarios in general are rarely recoverable in SC2) You can almost never defend it if it happens, and if your drop gets caught you lose almost instantly if the other person capitalizes on it. I've only seen one or two instances where a game like this one could be played out in SC2.
Meh. Stephano's not that good, and the vast majority of good SC2 players supports the BW claim.
Why so many broodwar gamers are so ignorant of the current SC2 pro scene
Dumb comment. You are probably equally as ignorant of the BW scene.
I'm thinking about making a gigantic thread to introduce bw strategy / key players / history in the SC2 general forums but I don't even know if it would be appreciated given the responses :/
Meh. Stephano's not that good, and the vast majority of good SC2 players supports the BW claim.
Why so many broodwar gamers are so ignorant of the current SC2 pro scene
Dumb comment. You are probably equally as ignorant of the BW scene.
I'm thinking about making a gigantic thread to introduce bw strategy / key players / history in the SC2 general forums but I don't even know if it would be appreciated given the responses :/
Post it on blog ^_^ I don't mind reading about it or if you want you can also post it on broodwar forum also.
Meh. Stephano's not that good, and the vast majority of good SC2 players supports the BW claim.
Why so many broodwar gamers are so ignorant of the current SC2 pro scene
Dumb comment. You are probably equally as ignorant of the BW scene.
I'm thinking about making a gigantic thread to introduce bw strategy / key players / history in the SC2 general forums but I don't even know if it would be appreciated given the responses :/
Post it on blog ^_^ I don't mind reading about it or if you want you can also post it on broodwar forum also.
LOL i would be so interested as well. like i said after really getting into sc2, i really learned to appreciate watching BW VoDs and what was happening and exactly why it is so difficult to do what they are doing. If BW players can bring that same level of intesity and skill, it would be absolutely awesome.
Meh. Stephano's not that good, and the vast majority of good SC2 players supports the BW claim.
Why so many broodwar gamers are so ignorant of the current SC2 pro scene
Dumb comment. You are probably equally as ignorant of the BW scene.
I'm thinking about making a gigantic thread to introduce bw strategy / key players / history in the SC2 general forums but I don't even know if it would be appreciated given the responses :/
Post it on blog ^_^ I don't mind reading about it or if you want you can also post it on broodwar forum also.
LOL i would be so interested as well. like i said after really getting into sc2, i really learned to appreciate watching BW VoDs and what was happening and exactly why it is so difficult to do what they are doing. If BW players can bring that same level of intesity and skill, it would be absolutely awesome.
Skills and good looks aside, Bisu was popular in BW because he played Protoss which were the underdogs and least played at high levels, and this hasn't changed much in SC2 (not counting the last 2 months). Terran has such a bad rep now for dominating too much that switching to Terran might take away from his fame and glory.
On April 26 2012 22:52 MDMA_ wrote: lol @ all the "whoever is good @ sc2, was somewhat, somewhere good @ bw or on a bw pro team. If there are top players that didnt play BW they are outliers"
ROFL. how about polt + all the wc3 players doing well?
On April 26 2012 20:16 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Does not translate straight into SC2: Every SC2 player who was better in BW is a top player. Even if you point at one example where it doesn't apply, in statistics we call that an outlier.
All I'm saying is you're ignorant.
aren't you being ignorant yourself by calling every top level sc2 player who hasnt played bw as "outliers". Basically just a sneaky way of discrediting the game, saying its shit and BW players will stop cuz BW takes skill? thats the message conveyed no?
You need to get your eyes cleaned. There's a difference between "all good BW pros are doing well in SC2" and "all pros doing well in SC2 were also good at BW." It's like the first thing you learn in logic.
YOU need to get your eyes cleared. "Every SC2 player who was better in BW is a top player". Stephano was not a better BW player, nor were any of the wc3 players.
Meh. Stephano's not that good, and the vast majority of good SC2 players supports the BW claim. This has nothing to do with wc3 or whatever. It's just showing the easy transition from one game to the other. I'm fine with wc3 players doing well in SC2. It's natural that there are people who are just naturally good at RTS games.........like Flash.
Maybe I have an underlying message, but that doesn't really matter.
At this point, people are just debating the same position. People are saying BW players are going to rape. And then other people are saying that BW players are going to rape later.
At this point, I think the one thing that the BW/SC2 community can mutually agree on is that BW players are going to stomp out the current crop in some unknown time span. There are of course people who still believe in a blossoming foreign scene, but to be honest as much as we were excited about potential foreign players in the past (there were people like Elky, Nony, Ret), it's not realistic to think that they're going to last that long.
Since you have finally made some statements that aren't laden with insults I'm happy to civilly discuss this topic.
I still don't agree with your statement as a whole. My opinion is that top BW players will become top SC2 players, by that I mean on a similar level to current top players which shift around every couple of months or so depending on who has figured out certain matchups at the time and who's style has been figured out. The rest of BW pros I expect some to end up at a similar level to they are now, possibly a bit higher or lower than before depending on how well they can apply their BW skills and adjust to the differences of a new game and others to fall out completely for other external reasons (not enjoying the game etc). This is not to say that I agree that they will stomp out and replace the current SC2 pros, but that they will slot into the current standings alongside the current SC2 Koreans.
Keep in mind I do appreciate that BW is harder than SC2, but SC2 is not BW. Since it is easier to play mechanically, players will not always win just because they have superior mechanics, so it comes down to strategy and understanding the game, and it's my opinion that 2 years of practicing SC2 gives the current pros a strategic edge while BW pros will have an edge in mechanics (after having played enough SC2 to correctly apply their mechanical skill) until months down the track when both will approximately even out.
You can call me ignorant about BW all you like, but you are also ignorant about SC2 and neither of us can say for sure how things will actually play out, so only time will tell.
As for the comments about the foreign scene, the beauty of the current foreign scene is that since the tournaments are held overseas you only get a certain percentage of Korean's depending on the tournament. It's generally a mixture of the number of Koreans the tournament decides to invite + Korean's whose teams can afford to send them (assuming an open bracket) + Korean's on foreigner teams that are attending. So the only real difference I see when BW teams switch over is that since those teams generally have a lot of money (if I understand correctly) then they will be able to afford to send more players, meaning that only tournaments with open brackets will really be affected, as the number of invites will generally be the same. This does mean that it will be even harder for foreigners to break into the Korean tournaments, but GSL invites a few every now and again so there will always be a couple of foreigners in the Korean scene that fans can root for.
The foreign scene has pretty much been designed around the fact that their is a skill gap between foreigners and Korean's, so while I agree that BW pros switching over will increase the skill gap (not that you actually said that but I believe it was implied), I think the foreign scene will continue to survive after the switch and maintain competitiveness. If we want the scene to continue to grow it pretty much has to survive because many new fans (myself not included) are only interested in watching foreigners and foreigner hope against Korean's is definitely one of the most popular stories that generate the most hype and bring in the largest crowds.
Hey everyone, I finally find the solution for all the Bisu fans who are undecided about race right now (since it's not confirmed that Bisu will play Terran).
Right now, just stick with Protoss, but only learn and play PvT. Doing so will improve your P, and at the same time improve your understanding of the MU, which indirectly improve your T.
So, if Bisu switch, you can follow him, and already have a good level in TvP. If he doesn't switch, you have already learned PvT, time to learn the other 2 MUs.
It's a win-win situation !!! I'm so happy finding this solution, hope that helps !!!!
On April 29 2012 19:53 kamikami wrote: Hey everyone, I finally find the solution for all the Bisu fans who are undecided about race right now (since it's not confirmed that Bisu will play Terran).
Right now, just stick with Protoss, but only learn and play PvT. Doing so will improve your P, and at the same time improve your understanding of the MU, which indirectly improve your T.
So, if Bisu switch, you can follow him, and already have a good level in TvP. If he doesn't switch, you have already learned PvT, time to learn the other 2 MUs.
It's a win-win situation !!! I'm so happy finding this solution, hope that helps !!!!
huh? So people are choosing race based on what a pro is playing instead of finding the race that suits them the best?
On April 29 2012 19:53 kamikami wrote: Hey everyone, I finally find the solution for all the Bisu fans who are undecided about race right now (since it's not confirmed that Bisu will play Terran).
Right now, just stick with Protoss, but only learn and play PvT. Doing so will improve your P, and at the same time improve your understanding of the MU, which indirectly improve your T.
So, if Bisu switch, you can follow him, and already have a good level in TvP. If he doesn't switch, you have already learned PvT, time to learn the other 2 MUs.
It's a win-win situation !!! I'm so happy finding this solution, hope that helps !!!!
huh? So people are choosing race based on what a pro is playing instead of finding the race that suits them the best?
Hm I guess it´s going to be pretty boring because almost every Korean plays Terran. Bisu wouldn´t be the best Terra I presume. Hope he sticks to Protoss.
Myrddraal Since it is easier to play mechanically, players will not always win just because they have superior mechanics, so it comes down to strategy and understanding the game, and it's my opinion that 2 years of practicing SC2 gives the current pros a strategic edge while BW pros will have an edge in mechanics (after having played enough SC2 to correctly apply their mechanical skill) until months down the track when both will approximately even out.
Like having superior mechanics will always ensure a win for you huh ? Seriously I have played TvP against protoss player who have more higher apm than me and macro and yet they still lose to me although I have only 8 factories in the late game while he has 30 gates producing goons and zealot from gateway all the time . I think this is some sort of a ignorant opinion most sc2 fans have they think that bw is all about having superior mechanics and not using strategy to win the game .
For me the immobility of the terran mech in the late game always plays well in to my strength since I get very fast +1 ugprades in the beginning and with that I am always on par with my protoss enemy even though my macro isn't good and keeping my army and siege tank line always in good position and not clump always let me wins the game . Protoss may have the ability to macro their unit's as fast as they can although as long as I can get a few more expansion running and keep my units in tactical formation and if I come out always on top of all the engagement I would likely win if I don't screw up by being greedy and try to push a 5k mineral stack protoss base macroing 30 gates with pure zealots ..
I will probably always win with just good engagement and strategy and that's to me isn't about how you are able to macro and 1a2a3a4a into victory but how you manage your troops and keep your bases in check from recalls and flanks from either side. God damn terran war machine have to love it sad that the mech in Sc2 is really that bad in the game, players can no longer do pure mech because the unit is pretty much naked without units like medivac and marauders plus marine to accompany siege tanks.
Also you do realized your perspective on the view of bw players only knowing mechanics is their best weapon against sc2 strategic players ? Fantasy Revolution(Mech vs Zerg) and Bisu revolution (FFE vs Zerg ) are all strategic in terms of them being able to counter their opponent with a different build that isn't standard at that time and it caught most of their opponent off guard because they weren't train to deal with this kind of situation i.e Bisu mopping floor with savior with his bisu build and since Fantasy sucks really bad in MnM with his fantasy build he was able to utilized his vulture really well so he can survive in to the mid game with valks to counter muta's .
I am really sick and tired that sc2 fans are giving all this crap at us that bw (is only a button mashing game ) and I would like to play with you guys and prove you really wrong .
On April 26 2012 22:52 MDMA_ wrote: lol @ all the "whoever is good @ sc2, was somewhat, somewhere good @ bw or on a bw pro team. If there are top players that didnt play BW they are outliers"
ROFL. how about polt + all the wc3 players doing well?
On April 26 2012 20:16 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Does not translate straight into SC2: Every SC2 player who was better in BW is a top player. Even if you point at one example where it doesn't apply, in statistics we call that an outlier.
All I'm saying is you're ignorant.
aren't you being ignorant yourself by calling every top level sc2 player who hasnt played bw as "outliers". Basically just a sneaky way of discrediting the game, saying its shit and BW players will stop cuz BW takes skill? thats the message conveyed no?
You need to get your eyes cleaned. There's a difference between "all good BW pros are doing well in SC2" and "all pros doing well in SC2 were also good at BW." It's like the first thing you learn in logic.
YOU need to get your eyes cleared. "Every SC2 player who was better in BW is a top player". Stephano was not a better BW player, nor were any of the wc3 players.
Meh. Stephano's not that good, and the vast majority of good SC2 players supports the BW claim. This has nothing to do with wc3 or whatever. It's just showing the easy transition from one game to the other. I'm fine with wc3 players doing well in SC2. It's natural that there are people who are just naturally good at RTS games.........like Flash.
Maybe I have an underlying message, but that doesn't really matter.
At this point, people are just debating the same position. People are saying BW players are going to rape. And then other people are saying that BW players are going to rape later.
At this point, I think the one thing that the BW/SC2 community can mutually agree on is that BW players are going to stomp out the current crop in some unknown time span. There are of course people who still believe in a blossoming foreign scene, but to be honest as much as we were excited about potential foreign players in the past (there were people like Elky, Nony, Ret), it's not realistic to think that they're going to last that long.
Since you have finally made some statements that aren't laden with insults I'm happy to civilly discuss this topic.
I still don't agree with your statement as a whole. My opinion is that top BW players will become top SC2 players, by that I mean on a similar level to current top players which shift around every couple of months or so depending on who has figured out certain matchups at the time and who's style has been figured out. The rest of BW pros I expect some to end up at a similar level to they are now, possibly a bit higher or lower than before depending on how well they can apply their BW skills and adjust to the differences of a new game and others to fall out completely for other external reasons (not enjoying the game etc). This is not to say that I agree that they will stomp out and replace the current SC2 pros, but that they will slot into the current standings alongside the current SC2 Koreans.
Keep in mind I do appreciate that BW is harder than SC2, but SC2 is not BW. Since it is easier to play mechanically, players will not always win just because they have superior mechanics, so it comes down to strategy and understanding the game, and it's my opinion that 2 years of practicing SC2 gives the current pros a strategic edge while BW pros will have an edge in mechanics (after having played enough SC2 to correctly apply their mechanical skill) until months down the track when both will approximately even out.
You can call me ignorant about BW all you like, but you are also ignorant about SC2 and neither of us can say for sure how things will actually play out, so only time will tell.
As for the comments about the foreign scene, the beauty of the current foreign scene is that since the tournaments are held overseas you only get a certain percentage of Korean's depending on the tournament. It's generally a mixture of the number of Koreans the tournament decides to invite + Korean's whose teams can afford to send them (assuming an open bracket) + Korean's on foreigner teams that are attending. So the only real difference I see when BW teams switch over is that since those teams generally have a lot of money (if I understand correctly) then they will be able to afford to send more players, meaning that only tournaments with open brackets will really be affected, as the number of invites will generally be the same. This does mean that it will be even harder for foreigners to break into the Korean tournaments, but GSL invites a few every now and again so there will always be a couple of foreigners in the Korean scene that fans can root for.
The foreign scene has pretty much been designed around the fact that their is a skill gap between foreigners and Korean's, so while I agree that BW pros switching over will increase the skill gap (not that you actually said that but I believe it was implied), I think the foreign scene will continue to survive after the switch and maintain competitiveness. If we want the scene to continue to grow it pretty much has to survive because many new fans (myself not included) are only interested in watching foreigners and foreigner hope against Korean's is definitely one of the most popular stories that generate the most hype and bring in the largest crowds.
Nah, Starcraft (1+2) has three main components to it: Economy, Tech, and Army. As long as you understand these three main things perfectly, you pretty much understand 70% of the game. BW pros have had a long time exposure to Starcraft and they understand why certain strategies work and certain strategies do not work. The same line of thinking applies to both games of Starcraft.
Some BW players have made builds that have completely changed the course of how an entire matchup is played. It's not like they are going to load up some MLG replay, look at it, and go "WTF". They understand things like worker count, upgrades (it's friggin flash we're talking about), map control, harassment, positioning, multitasking, etc.. to a level much higher than you could imagine. I'm not saying that means "OMG INSTANT BONJWA" but I would genuinely be surprised if they didn't fill 50% of Code S.
On April 30 2012 15:18 Sawamura wrote: ... I am really sick and tired that sc2 fans are giving all this crap at us that bw (is only a button mashing game ) and I would like to play with you guys and prove you really wrong .
I think that perception comes from some BW fanatics bashing SC2 with the argument that the UI is so "easy" and requiring less mechanics. That gives the impression that the thing making BW supposedly superior to SC2 is its mechanics.
On April 30 2012 15:18 Sawamura wrote: Also you do realized your perspective on the view of bw players only knowing mechanics is their best weapon against sc2 strategic players ? Fantasy Revolution(Mech vs Zerg) and Bisu revolution (FFE vs Zerg ) are all strategic in terms of them being able to counter their opponent with a different build that isn't standard at that time and it caught most of their opponent off guard because they weren't train to deal with this kind of situation i.e Bisu mopping floor with savior with his bisu build and since Fantasy sucks really bad in MnM with his fantasy build he was able to utilized his vulture really well so he can survive in to the mid game with valks to counter muta's .
I am really sick and tired that sc2 fans are giving all this crap at us that bw (is only a button mashing game ) and I would like to play with you guys and prove you really wrong .
There is something to be said that the base mechanics needed for BW is higher than any other RTS game, meaning the BW teams would reject potentially great SC2 players that lack the mechanics needed for BW. For example, Zero was scouted simply because the coach saw his 300+ APM. PJ once mentioned how in the SKT1 house, you have to reach certain APMs to stay around(something like ~250ish for protoss, can't remember). So yes, there are certainly high level BW players that may not really be any better than current top SC2 guys simply because their mechanical advantage is gone.
So I think a player like Modesty, for example, would not transition well since his awesome ZvZ micro is not worth nearly as much in SC2. While a player like Stork may actually benefit from the transition, since he no longer has to worry about his diminishing APM and instead be able to fully show his great game management.
On April 30 2012 15:18 Sawamura wrote: Also you do realized your perspective on the view of bw players only knowing mechanics is their best weapon against sc2 strategic players ? Fantasy Revolution(Mech vs Zerg) and Bisu revolution (FFE vs Zerg ) are all strategic in terms of them being able to counter their opponent with a different build that isn't standard at that time and it caught most of their opponent off guard because they weren't train to deal with this kind of situation i.e Bisu mopping floor with savior with his bisu build and since Fantasy sucks really bad in MnM with his fantasy build he was able to utilized his vulture really well so he can survive in to the mid game with valks to counter muta's .
I am really sick and tired that sc2 fans are giving all this crap at us that bw (is only a button mashing game ) and I would like to play with you guys and prove you really wrong .
There is something to be said that the base mechanics needed for BW is higher than any other RTS game, meaning the BW teams would reject potentially great SC2 players that lack the mechanics needed for BW. For example, Zero was scouted simply because the coach saw his 300+ APM. PJ once mentioned how in the SKT1 house, you have to reach certain APMs to stay around(something like ~250ish for protoss, can't remember). So yes, there are certainly high level BW players that may not really be any better than current top SC2 guys simply because their mechanical advantage is gone.
So I think a player like Modesty, for example, would not transition well since his awesome ZvZ micro is not worth nearly as much in SC2. While a player like Stork may actually benefit from the transition, since he no longer has to worry about his diminishing APM and instead be able to fully show his great game management.
I think it's too early to speculate how well our bw pro gamers will transition to sc2 basically we are just looking at something that will or will not transition their skill to sc2 but I won't base it on their mechanics and It will depend on how well this players will adapt to the new environment they are getting in to . New timings,New build order, New strategies, Although starcraft 2 does look like starcraft but with the addition of Larvae Inject,Mule,Chrono boost the game is definitely not a broodwar clone but a mix of other strategy games concept in it . Marauders spell which is the concussion spell does look a little like a warcraft 3 spell from a hero .
Macro mechanics I believe were inserted due to the player having an easy time macroing through mbs without the need to go back to the base and macro each individual buildings now they have to get used to microing units more than they used to although having a good solid mechanic and work ethic would probably speed up the learning process much more faster than we can think of.
This is something broodwar players have to take in to account and that being said players basically are on the same level now if bw players were to transition to sc2 right now . I have good faith that given time our bw players will be the best out there in sc2 .
On April 29 2012 19:53 kamikami wrote: Hey everyone, I finally find the solution for all the Bisu fans who are undecided about race right now (since it's not confirmed that Bisu will play Terran).
Right now, just stick with Protoss, but only learn and play PvT. Doing so will improve your P, and at the same time improve your understanding of the MU, which indirectly improve your T.
So, if Bisu switch, you can follow him, and already have a good level in TvP. If he doesn't switch, you have already learned PvT, time to learn the other 2 MUs.
It's a win-win situation !!! I'm so happy finding this solution, hope that helps !!!!
huh? So people are choosing race based on what a pro is playing instead of finding the race that suits them the best?
Myrddraal Since it is easier to play mechanically, players will not always win just because they have superior mechanics, so it comes down to strategy and understanding the game, and it's my opinion that 2 years of practicing SC2 gives the current pros a strategic edge while BW pros will have an edge in mechanics (after having played enough SC2 to correctly apply their mechanical skill) until months down the track when both will approximately even out.
Like having superior mechanics will always ensure a win for you huh ? Seriously I have played TvP against protoss player who have more higher apm than me and macro and yet they still lose to me although I have only 8 factories in the late game while he has 30 gates producing goons and zealot from gateway all the time . I think this is some sort of a ignorant opinion most sc2 fans have they think that bw is all about having superior mechanics and not using strategy to win the game
I don't think you interpret his post correctly. you are of course right when you would take his post literally People that wére (not saying all) relying on mechanics, will not be able to be as dominant in sc2 as they were in bw. That's how i read his post. and i can (at least partly) agree with that. Making a game more reliant on strategy compared to mechanics gives a shift in the needed skillset. the other way round would be exactly the same.
Myrddraal Since it is easier to play mechanically, players will not always win just because they have superior mechanics, so it comes down to strategy and understanding the game, and it's my opinion that 2 years of practicing SC2 gives the current pros a strategic edge while BW pros will have an edge in mechanics (after having played enough SC2 to correctly apply their mechanical skill) until months down the track when both will approximately even out.
Like having superior mechanics will always ensure a win for you huh ? Seriously I have played TvP against protoss player who have more higher apm than me and macro and yet they still lose to me although I have only 8 factories in the late game while he has 30 gates producing goons and zealot from gateway all the time . I think this is some sort of a ignorant opinion most sc2 fans have they think that bw is all about having superior mechanics and not using strategy to win the game
I don't think you interpret his post correctly. you are of course right when you would take his post literally People that wére (not saying all) relying on mechanics, will not be able to be as dominant in sc2 as they were in bw. That's how i read his post. and i can (at least partly) agree with that. Making a game more reliant on strategy compared to mechanics gives a shift in the needed skillset. the other way round would be exactly the same.
Look my example I gave was my mechanics wasn't really good and my strategy provided me an advantage over my superior mechanic opponent although my macro was only at best being able to produce the units when I want to . Than again he clearly stated that we bw oldies are merely superior because we have superior mechanics and that's not true . Strategy does play apart in to the mechanics that is implemented in broodwar .
Also if you want to make a game more reliant on strategy total annihilation and supreme commander series is a better game than sc2 in that department . With mechanics out of the question and resources are actually mine automatically without any user control you can focus on strategy all the time ...
How can we read the future and say that oh just because he relies merely on mechanics he must be a no brainer and won't perform well in a STRATEGIC game like sc2 .
This isn't all that surprising. I think the general consensus is that Terran in SC2 plays more like classic starcraft than the other races. It's much more like BW than the other options .
I didn't want to bump the more appropriate BW coaches on SC2 thread, but here's the live report on the big meeting KeSPA/Gom/Blizzard/OGN is having, which is likely important to BW
On April 30 2012 16:05 Toastie wrote: Multitaskers should play Terran - Protoss units in small groups are inferior to any opposition.
Yes, sadly Protoss are that way in Starcraft2.
What a bad design from Blizzard, destroying all the awesome multitask from BW protoss.
Yeah it's aggravating. There's no analgous shuttle reaver or sair dt micro that a Stork or Bisu can pull off to overcome all and win. Bisu as a terran and hell especially Flash is going to show how incomplete SC2 is.
On April 30 2012 16:05 Toastie wrote: Multitaskers should play Terran - Protoss units in small groups are inferior to any opposition.
Yes, sadly Protoss are that way in Starcraft2.
What a bad design from Blizzard, destroying all the awesome multitask from BW protoss.
Yeah it's aggravating. There's no analgous shuttle reaver or sair dt micro that a Stork or Bisu can pull off to overcome all and win. Bisu as a terran and hell especially Flash is going to show how incomplete SC2 is.
On April 30 2012 16:05 Toastie wrote: Multitaskers should play Terran - Protoss units in small groups are inferior to any opposition.
Yes, sadly Protoss are that way in Starcraft2.
What a bad design from Blizzard, destroying all the awesome multitask from BW protoss.
Yeah it's aggravating. There's no analgous shuttle reaver or sair dt micro that a Stork or Bisu can pull off to overcome all and win. Bisu as a terran and hell especially Flash is going to show how incomplete SC2 is.
That's what zergs do man.
The protoss and zerg titles need to change. With all the freaking zergs in the Starleagues it should be the protoss overcoming all and the zergs with their victory after victory.
On May 02 2012 12:36 below66 wrote: Long live sc2!!!!! so happy, hopefully blizzard comes up with some magic for the HoTS release, that's when stuff will really start kicking off.
On May 02 2012 12:36 below66 wrote: Long live sc2!!!!! so happy, hopefully blizzard comes up with some magic for the HoTS release, that's when stuff will really start kicking off.
On May 02 2012 12:36 below66 wrote: Long live sc2!!!!! so happy, hopefully blizzard comes up with some magic for the HoTS release, that's when stuff will really start kicking off.
please exit the broodwar section. dont come back even if there is a reference to Sc2..
On May 02 2012 13:05 Caladbolg wrote: Morituri te salutant.
those who are about to die salute you
dude we are not dead yet please -_-
On May 02 2012 12:36 below66 wrote: Long live sc2!!!!! so happy, hopefully blizzard comes up with some magic for the HoTS release, that's when stuff will really start kicking off.
This is the same guy who dislike kespa ^_^
Don't like KESPA at all, don't want them near sc2, but this is still exciting info nonetheless, we will see if it can all come full circle and take off with the release of HoTS.
A lot of pressure on blizzard now, if they deliver, the scene will blossom.
On May 03 2012 01:33 Zenon wrote: Just out of interest, how long do you guys think Brood War's unofficial servers will stay online for after the switchover?
Isn't Diablo 1 servers still up and running? I don't know, Blizzard may be attempting to kill off professional BW, but I don't think they wanna kill of the game totally. So they will probably stay up.
On May 03 2012 01:33 Zenon wrote: Just out of interest, how long do you guys think Brood War's unofficial servers will stay online for after the switchover?
Isn't Diablo 1 servers still up and running? I don't know, Blizzard may be attempting to kill off professional BW, but I don't think they wanna kill of the game totally. So they will probably stay up.
On May 03 2012 01:33 Zenon wrote: Just out of interest, how long do you guys think Brood War's unofficial servers will stay online for after the switchover?
Isn't Diablo 1 servers still up and running? I don't know, Blizzard may be attempting to kill off professional BW, but I don't think they wanna kill of the game totally. So they will probably stay up.
On May 05 2012 13:29 HellKey wrote: If bisu switches to terran, i will switch thats how big of a fan boy i am
Hey man, always good to try new things!
Yes the more i think about it the more terran looks appealing: -NO more PvP -Can play mech for sure in TvT and TvZ -Can somehow play mech in TvP (but for now its tricky and i dont know if it will grow as a good style)
I think in lategame, tank (dmg dealer) hellion (taking dmg) Thor/Viking (anti -air) and raven (support), could be the ultimate TvP composition. (i could be very wrong tho)
The raven would be key it will either make the protoss army run from the seeker missile and give me time to position my tanks at a good place or once the battle has started send a missile to do good splash dmg to compliment the tank splash dmg. But im not sure yet i will have to play a lot of terran to see if it can work (and to manage to get at point in the game) or see pros doing it. The game is still not a mapped as BW, there's a lot of strats that are yet to be discovered and optimized...
If this unit composition can work terran will be super fun to play imho. (depending also on what i have to do to get to late game)
Ps: It might be just me dreaming to get rid of the ''ball'' style of play that i hate so much in sc2 and so much splash dmg will might even force P to spread.
Also dont get me wrong i love bio in BW but in sc2 the fact that you can put all your army in 1 hotkey makes bio lame
Edit: Just saw Lastshadow using pretty much the same composition except that he had much more thors than siege tanks (makes sense against broodlords)
On May 05 2012 13:29 HellKey wrote: If bisu switches to terran, i will switch thats how big of a fan boy i am
Hey man, always good to try new things!
Yes the more i think about it the more terran looks appealing: -NO more PvP -Can play mech for sure in TvT and TvZ -Can somehow play mech in TvP (but for now its tricky and i dont know if it will grow as a good style)
I think in lategame, tank (dmg dealer) hellion (taking dmg) Thor/Viking (anti -air) and raven (support), could be the ultimate TvP composition. (i could be very wrong tho)
The raven would be key it will either make the protoss army run from the seeker missile and give me time to position my tanks at a good place or once the battle has started send a missile to do good splash dmg to compliment the tank splash dmg. But im not sure yet i will have to play a lot of terran to see if it can work (and to manage to get at point in the game) or see pros doing it. The game is still not a mapped as BW, there's a lot of strats that are yet to be discovered and optimized...
If this unit composition can work terran will be super fun to play imho. (depending also on what i have to do to get to late game)
Ps: It might be just me dreaming to get rid of the ''ball'' style of play that i hate so much in sc2 and so much splash dmg will might even force P to spread.
Also dont get me wrong i love bio in BW but in sc2 the fact that you can put all your army in 1 hotkey makes bio lame
With the changes coming to hots, it looks like Blizzard really wants to make mech viable in every matchup, so it should work fine
On May 03 2012 03:01 MaV_gGSC wrote: Muahahaha join the dark side Bisu! You know you wanna stim and 1a
err? i didn't know bio was 1a
In the first year of sc2 Terran was considered the easiest 1a race, since others didn't find the right anserwers for early / mid bio pushes. Most of the games ended when the Terran stim timing came, specially in PvT
On May 02 2012 12:36 below66 wrote: Long live sc2!!!!! so happy, hopefully blizzard comes up with some magic for the HoTS release, that's when stuff will really start kicking off.
please exit the broodwar section. dont come back even if there is a reference to Sc2..
Yeah, damn those positive and happy people! They are such assholes!
On May 02 2012 12:36 below66 wrote: Long live sc2!!!!! so happy, hopefully blizzard comes up with some magic for the HoTS release, that's when stuff will really start kicking off.
please exit the broodwar section. dont come back even if there is a reference to Sc2..
Yeah, damn those positive and happy people! They are such assholes!
Im going to start spamming all the Sc2 forums with happiness to let them know that Sc:Bw is the better game.. I mean, obviously it doesnt matter the disrepect shown, as long as you do it with happiness, right?
On May 02 2012 12:36 below66 wrote: Long live sc2!!!!! so happy, hopefully blizzard comes up with some magic for the HoTS release, that's when stuff will really start kicking off.
please exit the broodwar section. dont come back even if there is a reference to Sc2..
Yeah, damn those positive and happy people! They are such assholes!
Im going to start spamming all the Sc2 forums with happiness to let them know that Sc:Bw is the better game.. I mean, obviously it doesnt matter the disrepect shown, as long as you do it with happiness, right?
Except he never said Sc2 was the better game or showed any real disrespect... You're just over reacting. Yes lots of people have shit on BW and are trollin up the bw forums. But he is not one of them, never said anything bad about BW, merely showed that he was happy.
DRG was playing against some scrub in some showmatch. There was a decent sized audience in a decent sized stadium, but there were quite a few empty seats as well. They cheered loudly as DRG crushed that random player and "played with his food" per say.
Then after the game, Bisu came up to the stage in his orange SKT1 uniform and started to announce the changes in Proleague.
But alas, I didn't hear those changes. My dream switched to me wandering around New York City for some reason.
It'd be really cool to see the kind of things that Bisu could do as terran, but I think there are enough BW-SC2 Terran players already, and I'm also interested in what Bisu could do as Protoss.
This thread hurts. I keep reading this damn thing, and I'm realizing it sucks not knowing what's up with all these personalities within SC2. The race changes we'll see and trying to predict them makes my brain hurt.
I secretly wish they'd all stay with the same race.
On May 02 2012 12:36 below66 wrote: Long live sc2!!!!! so happy, hopefully blizzard comes up with some magic for the HoTS release, that's when stuff will really start kicking off.
please exit the broodwar section. dont come back even if there is a reference to Sc2..
Yeah, damn those positive and happy people! They are such assholes!
Its not the happiness and positivity. Its the kicking us when were down.
The KT house is in full force SC2 rightnow. Flash being No1 at a division, most likely Master. Can't wait to see them in action but I doubt most of them will success. Hopefully Flash will dominate though
On May 02 2012 12:36 below66 wrote: Long live sc2!!!!! so happy, hopefully blizzard comes up with some magic for the HoTS release, that's when stuff will really start kicking off.
please exit the broodwar section. dont come back even if there is a reference to Sc2..
Yeah, damn those positive and happy people! They are such assholes!
Im going to start spamming all the Sc2 forums with happiness to let them know that Sc:Bw is the better game.. I mean, obviously it doesnt matter the disrepect shown, as long as you do it with happiness, right?
But....what's disrespectful about his post? He doesn't at all state anything about BW, only that he is happy about what is happening. Just because you're really upset about BW falling off doesn't mean he's being disrespectful by being happy.
On May 02 2012 12:36 below66 wrote: Long live sc2!!!!! so happy, hopefully blizzard comes up with some magic for the HoTS release, that's when stuff will really start kicking off.
please exit the broodwar section. dont come back even if there is a reference to Sc2..
Yeah, damn those positive and happy people! They are such assholes!
Its not the happiness and positivity. Its the kicking us when were down.
There is no kicking. He's just expressing his emotions about the situation. He didn't state anything disrespectful at all. If you find his happiness disrespectful then i feel sorry for you.
Meh. Stephano's not that good, and the vast majority of good SC2 players supports the BW claim.
Why so many broodwar gamers are so ignorant of the current SC2 pro scene
Dumb comment. You are probably equally as ignorant of the BW scene.
I'm thinking about making a gigantic thread to introduce bw strategy / key players / history in the SC2 general forums but I don't even know if it would be appreciated given the responses :/
I would really like it! I've discovered sc:bw when I started sc2 but I feel like I missed something...
On May 10 2012 19:40 Ornithorynquez wrote: I didn't checked all the posts in the "Media Day" thread, but according to the Q&A looks like Bisu didn't switched to terran after all.
Bisu is playing terran on NA ladder, or at least someone with the same name who is rank 1 masters and is beating top 10 grandmasters on ladder. I don't know if it's him but with the 75% winrate vs GM's he has I would guess it is? Then again this is NA so he may be offracing.
On May 02 2012 12:36 below66 wrote: Long live sc2!!!!! so happy, hopefully blizzard comes up with some magic for the HoTS release, that's when stuff will really start kicking off.
please exit the broodwar section. dont come back even if there is a reference to Sc2..
Yeah, damn those positive and happy people! They are such assholes!
Its not the happiness and positivity. Its the kicking us when were down.
There is no kicking. He's just expressing his emotions about the situation. He didn't state anything disrespectful at all. If you find his happiness disrespectful then i feel sorry for you.
They're saying it because the post is pretty insensitive. If you come in here and people are saying "dude this sucks, my favorite player is switching to a game that I think is inferior and/or a piece of garbage", you don't go "YAY I'M SO HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY."
It's fine to be excited about this thing, but at least recognize that when you post in here there are plenty of people unhappy with what's going on.
On May 10 2012 19:40 Ornithorynquez wrote: I didn't checked all the posts in the "Media Day" thread, but according to the Q&A looks like Bisu didn't switched to terran after all.
Q: Could you talk about any other famous players who changed races? Park Yong Woon (T1): In the end, no one. One player did attempt it, however.
Yes !!!! Long live Bisu !!! Long live Protoss !!! For Aiur !!!
Yeh mehn!!! If you thought Toss was imba before, wait till you have 200 excess APM playing it :DDDDDD
On May 02 2012 12:36 below66 wrote: Long live sc2!!!!! so happy, hopefully blizzard comes up with some magic for the HoTS release, that's when stuff will really start kicking off.
please exit the broodwar section. dont come back even if there is a reference to Sc2..
Yeah, damn those positive and happy people! They are such assholes!
Its not the happiness and positivity. Its the kicking us when were down.
There is no kicking. He's just expressing his emotions about the situation. He didn't state anything disrespectful at all. If you find his happiness disrespectful then i feel sorry for you.
They're saying it because the post is pretty insensitive. If you come in here and people are saying "dude this sucks, my favorite player is switching to a game that I think is inferior and/or a piece of garbage", you don't go "YAY I'M SO HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY."
It's fine to be excited about this thing, but at least recognize that when you post in here there are plenty of people unhappy with what's going on.
But their unhappiness about the situation does still not make his post at all disrespectful. This is a thread with relevance to sc2, so if he is not allowed to post his happiness which is very relevant to the thread topic without being tasteless or disrespectful, then something is very wrong. You might think it's tasteless to do so, but in reality his happiness should have no impact on your sadness.
On April 21 2012 10:27 MCDayC wrote: Players switching races due to imbalance is really idiotic (if that is actually true), considering it changes so often, a couple of months ago Toss was by far the weakest race, whereas now they are doing great, if someone wants to be in Starcraft 2 for a long time they shouldn't pick their races for the next few years based off of monthly gestimates of balance.
Though what you say is true, a lot of pros in BW chose their race based on perceived imbalance, even though today it's generally accepted as a (perfectly) balanced game.
On May 10 2012 19:40 Ornithorynquez wrote: I didn't checked all the posts in the "Media Day" thread, but according to the Q&A looks like Bisu didn't switched to terran after all.
Q: Could you talk about any other famous players who changed races? Park Yong Woon (T1): In the end, no one. One player did attempt it, however.
Yes !!!! Long live Bisu !!! Long live Protoss !!! For Aiur !!!
And in the same article, Flash looks to be considering a change to Protoss. I bet this is just hype on his and his team's part. I dont see him changing but I would be so happy if Bisu and Flash both played the "true" race
On May 10 2012 19:40 Ornithorynquez wrote: I didn't checked all the posts in the "Media Day" thread, but according to the Q&A looks like Bisu didn't switched to terran after all.
Q: Could you talk about any other famous players who changed races? Park Yong Woon (T1): In the end, no one. One player did attempt it, however.
Yes !!!! Long live Bisu !!! Long live Protoss !!! For Aiur !!!
Yeh mehn!!! If you thought Toss was imba before, wait till you have 200 excess APM playing it :DDDDDD
uhhh every gsl code S protoss has that 200 excess apm -___- high apm isn't that abnormal at the highest level bisu's specialty is just his multitask meaning that he would be a stronger version of hero given the proper amount of practice the difference is not that mind blowing at the highest level
I can see why Bisu is thinking of playing Terran in SC2 cause of kinda same mechanics to Toss in BW. But nontheless I'd rather see him stay with his destiny -which is to fight for aiur-
On May 10 2012 20:59 eXeSnight wrote: Bisu is playing terran on NA ladder, or at least someone with the same name who is rank 1 masters and is beating top 10 grandmasters on ladder. I don't know if it's him but with the 75% winrate vs GM's he has I would guess it is? Then again this is NA so he may be offracing.
im pretty sure it isnt him, as there would be absolutely no reason for a korean to play on NA.
additionally i dont think he can possibly be so strong that hes constantly beating top 10 gm players now, even if its just on NA.
I think we can put this god aweful thread to rest. It was pure speculation from the beginning and should be closed forever. <3 Bisu.<3 Protoss. I can't wait for the stalker micro!
On May 02 2012 12:36 below66 wrote: Long live sc2!!!!! so happy, hopefully blizzard comes up with some magic for the HoTS release, that's when stuff will really start kicking off.
please exit the broodwar section. dont come back even if there is a reference to Sc2..
Yeah, damn those positive and happy people! They are such assholes!
Its not the happiness and positivity. Its the kicking us when were down.
There is no kicking. He's just expressing his emotions about the situation. He didn't state anything disrespectful at all. If you find his happiness disrespectful then i feel sorry for you.
Dunno why were still talking about this, but its like going on a Republican/Romney form and spamming smiley face emoticons after Obama wins the 2012 election. To each is their own, but its just not very classy.
On May 02 2012 12:36 below66 wrote: Long live sc2!!!!! so happy, hopefully blizzard comes up with some magic for the HoTS release, that's when stuff will really start kicking off.
please exit the broodwar section. dont come back even if there is a reference to Sc2..
Yeah, damn those positive and happy people! They are such assholes!
Its not the happiness and positivity. Its the kicking us when were down.
There is no kicking. He's just expressing his emotions about the situation. He didn't state anything disrespectful at all. If you find his happiness disrespectful then i feel sorry for you.
Dunno why were still talking about this, but its like going on a Republican/Romney form and spamming smiley face emoticons after Obama wins the 2012 election. To each is their own, but its just not very classy.
Except BW and SC2 aren't enemies, they're friends.
i dont understand why some bw people hate sc2 so much. I played sc1 then bw for probably ~6 yrs, loved it, watched the pro scene and loved the depth and competitive aspect. When sc2 came out i was sooo ecstatic. Played beginning of beta until now. I loved bw and i love sc2 the same.
To be honest I haven't played bw since i first played sc2. I have continued to follow the pros that still played however. I guess i never felt sad about leaving bw because its so old and i trust in blizzard. imo if they made that game i loved so much, why wouldn't they make the 2nd one great too and i was excited to be a part of it. I mean, why not move on to the sequel, similar exciting pro scene to follow and a whole new generation of metagame changes.
There just wasn't any negativity or missing it, in my mind, my love for bw just fueled my love for sc2.
On May 11 2012 08:55 N.geNuity wrote: they're friends when they're side by side and progamers who want to switch are free to do so (mvp, nestea, forgg, anyppi, etc).
They're not friends when one replaces the other.
Not true. Evidence is the movie "The Prestige" with the characters played by Chistain Bale. They constantly replaced each other AND were brothers. Checkmate.
On May 11 2012 08:55 N.geNuity wrote:They're not friends when one replaces the other.
And what was the alternative? BW was dying, and it wasn't because of the 20 people in Korea who like SC2. Would you have preferred they switch to LoL?
the alternative is dying a natural death, not throwing in a mixed league. Mvp and others have commented how the format really doesn't seem generous to the players. If the players were calling for the switch, then so be it. I know it's a weird situation because some players may not want to have switched ever, but I'd rather have a definitive "this will be last season of brood war, next season is all sc2" than a bunch of rumours swirling around, and then throwing in a mixed league forcing players to switch between the games.
Even the teams didn't know what the SK planet proleague was going to be and had to awkwardly prepare for whatever could be thrown their way. Some practiced some sc2 before season 1 because they didn't even know when sc2 may be put in place.
On May 11 2012 08:55 N.geNuity wrote:They're not friends when one replaces the other.
And what was the alternative? BW was dying, and it wasn't because of the 20 people in Korea who like SC2. Would you have preferred they switch to LoL?
the alternative is dying a natural death, not throwing in a mixed league. Mvp and others have commented how the format really doesn't seem generous to the players. If the players were calling for the switch, then so be it. I know it's a weird situation because some players may not want to have switched ever, but I'd rather have a definitive "this will be last season of brood war, next season is all sc2" than a bunch of rumours swirling around, and then throwing in a mixed league forcing players to switch between the games.
Even the teams didn't know what the SK planet proleague was going to be and had to awkwardly prepare for whatever could be thrown their way. Some practiced some sc2 before season 1 because they didn't even know when sc2 may be put in place.
its not their fault that you have no business sense.
Businessmen got to do what's best for their company
I'm just saying my opinion on what I wished happened; I know that kespa sponsors clearly have stated they wish to expand their businesses and have global presence. I didn't post about a switch not happening, just the process.
I also don't think ambiguity and rumours are indicative of good business, but whatever.
EPT
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At least it ended on a high note in the proleague finals and heres hoping Bisu becomes the first starcraft 2 OSL champ !!!
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