On April 14 2012 09:49 FlyingTurtle wrote: What I don't understand is why you would go for Marauders and Reapers when your tech path is so gas-intensive. Why not the normal 1rax expo into reactored Hellions? You can take all 4 gas and save it up while making gas-free Marines and Hellions. You only need gas for Stim/Combat and upgrades...all the units cost no gas.
because its more fun. there doesnt have to be a sense in the build, thats the joke about those posts. sry for being a bit offensive, but i could as well post replays where i crush low masters players with stalker drops all over the place into carriers. not that it would make any sense or be worth a strategy thread.
On April 14 2012 08:54 Drolla wrote: The fact that you are using Vikings as anti air means that mutas will just overrun you.
There is a reason why builds like this are not done at a pro level and it is because they are so easily exploitable.
The Ravens provide PDD as well as Seeker Missile, so it's actually no problem
Ravens are not reliable anti-air, hence why pros don't use them. PDD are stationary and seeker missiles can be easily out micro'd.
Not true at all. Ravens are insanely good anti air and a major investment. The reason pros don't go them is because it's insanely costly transition, leaves you open to timings during the transition, and creates a window as well where you can't pressure Zerg and thus run the possibility of his econ going out of control.
They are insanely good anti air. I use them myself, just supplemental however, not as a core army component. I'm not necessarily endorsing the build, just pointing out that you're using faulty reasons.
Have you tried going hellion instead of reaper in the opening at all? They serve similar purposes in the terran army and force similar responses from the zerg, while not costing gas or using barracks production time. You don't seem to be using your factory much in the build anyway, if you are going to wall your nat with a PF, tanks aren't as much of a necessity. If you are using medivacs which can drop hellions on high ground, then reapers aren't really any better than hellions. I personally like reapers as a concept, they're a cool unit, but hellions seem like they would accomplish the same purpose in your build more efficiently, and leave you much more gas for your air transition.
On April 14 2012 09:49 FlyingTurtle wrote: What I don't understand is why you would go for Marauders and Reapers when your tech path is so gas-intensive. Why not the normal 1rax expo into reactored Hellions? You can take all 4 gas and save it up while making gas-free Marines and Hellions. You only need gas for Stim/Combat and upgrades...all the units cost no gas.
On April 14 2012 10:00 Fyrewolf wrote: Have you tried going hellion instead of reaper in the opening at all? They serve similar purposes in the terran army and force similar responses from the zerg, while not costing gas or using barracks production time. You don't seem to be using your factory much in the build anyway, if you are going to wall your nat with a PF, tanks aren't as much of a necessity. If you are using medivacs which can drop hellions on high ground, then reapers aren't really any better than hellions. I personally like reapers as a concept, they're a cool unit, but hellions seem like they would accomplish the same purpose in your build more efficiently, and leave you much more gas for your air transition.
That's a good question, I find the composition and timing is suprising for a lot of zerg and they don't deal with it well; I have won games outright with the opening many times.Reapers are awesome vs light (ie: zerglings) and buildings with around 16dps, and Marauders soak damage well and are good vs queens and buildings. Coupled with the Medivac and good micro, this makes for a pretty potent combination. That being said, there is a good elevator opening of 2 hellions and 8 marines that I have seen pro's use, and I've been thinking about trying it.
Why don't you use the reapers to harass at all (first vod) before you get your medivac out? You could at the very least force more units instead of drones earlier on, which matters a lot more.
On April 14 2012 09:27 iAmJeffReY wrote: Again, how would you stop ling infestor fast upgrades for a 2/2 bust?
Or, how would you stop an econ bane bust?
Or, how would you stop a roach bane bust?
My three questions.
I don't really have too many problems with busts at the natural (as it is heavily walled with siege tanks and bunkers behind, but sometimes at the third if I haven't built up effective defense. If my third goes down usually it's at a fairly large loss to zerg and I try to quickly reestablish the third. PF's with upgrades (5 armor) are pretty beefy especially if you build supply depots/CC's around it
On April 14 2012 09:35 iAmJeffReY wrote: Your reapers will be out faster. Here's an example of the opening, it's my TvT opening and surprisingly works well against Z for what you're trying to accomplish.
I don't know why you delay gas, but if you just cut an scv early you can get gas earlier, and have a better, more streamline economy and still achieve the same goals, if not faster.
That build order is an interesting idea, and I will definitely take a look at it. Cheers
On April 14 2012 10:39 Najda wrote: Why don't you use the reapers to harass at all (first vod) before you get your medivac out? You could at the very least force more units instead of drones earlier on, which matters a lot more.
That's a great point. I definitely harass more lately, and should have more so in those games; it would also be beneficial for scouting purposes.
This guy took the time to share his ideas with the community and he gets bashed. Who cares if Idra laughs at the strategy section! TeamLiquid is a sc2 community. If it's a community, then everyone should be able to contribute. Please remember that only a small amount of people on players are in masters or above! (Isn't masters the top 10% and Gm the top 5%?)
I'm not in masters and don't consider myself as a theorycrafter so the next time I play a monobattle or team matches, I will try this out :D
I'm curious, does everyone care about ranks? "you are in masters.... your skill level is gold/plat..." To me, a masters player will enjoy the game as much as a silver player... Don't we all make probes, structures, army and then kill each other? If you make mistakes, you lose. If your opponent makes mistakes, you win. As you get higher ranks, the skill level rises but deep down, the cycle repeats itself over and over. It's not easy to write a detailed guide so at the very least, applaud him for giving an effort and not giving up.
The viability of his build doesnt necessarily matter. This isnt some elitist club for Master's players so all the builds don't have to be tailored to you. This guy put time into his build and worked hard, so stop shitting on him.
It depends what you are looking for when you are looking at a guide and deciding whether it may "help" you or not.
Just saying, Rainbow does mass raven and/or air occasionally at high masters on KR, and it works. So, yeah. And yes he defends early mutas with just ravens.
On April 14 2012 09:24 AegiS_ wrote: I think this belongs on the bnet forums where the standards for builds are a bit.. lower.
Generally, well received builds on these forums are ones that can work up to pro level, not just diamond league. People here come to seriously improve (a lot of aspiring master players trying to get GM) and not just "have fun" with builds that have never been tested above diamond MMR.
threads like these are why pro's like Idra/ Artosis make fun of the TL strategy forum. They just don't belong here..
What? A number but not all people here come to seriously improve. If you're one of them, then fine, but criticizing the OP for posting such a guide on TL just cus it didn't suit your tastes? Unnecessary. Some people like to try new things and have fun. Hey, if a player doesn't know how to defend against a random kind of build/strategy like this, why not abuse that? (Like on ladder). If they don't know how to defend it, it's their loss. Maybe they should learn how so that if, for some chance, it is used in a tournament setting, they won't lose stupidly.
On April 14 2012 10:47 CommanchyWattkins wrote: comments are so negative
This guy took the time to share his ideas with the community and he gets bashed. Who cares if Idra laughs at the strategy section! TeamLiquid is a sc2 community. If it's a community, then everyone should be able to contribute. Please remember that only a small amount of people on players are in masters or above! (Isn't masters the top 10% and Gm the top 5%?)
I'm not in masters and don't consider myself as a theorycrafter so the next time I play a monobattle or team matches, I will try this out :D
I'm curious, does everyone care about ranks? "you are in masters.... your skill level is gold/plat..." To me, a masters player will enjoy the game as much as a silver player... Don't we all make probes, structures, army and then kill each other? If you make mistakes, you lose. If your opponent makes mistakes, you win. As you get higher ranks, the skill level rises but deep down, the cycle repeats itself over and over. It's not easy to write a detailed guide so at the very least, applaud him for giving an effort and not giving up.
Well the reason why everyone is bashing him is because these builds dont work unless the opponent isnt that good. I guess people frown upon spreading "really bad builds" that just makes the terran race look more gimicky and pathetic.
I wasn't trying to be negative or elitist, I just feel the best type of guides for this forum should be ones that work til pro level or are designed around pro builds. Why? Because they are 10x more refined than stuff like this, thus a low league player can practice said tested-build and become a better player.
I can make a build that is "cool" or "fun" like mass carrier and then make youtube videos against zergs that float 4k minerals pre-200/200 to give it credit, but what's the point? Anyway, my point is he should at least put some disclaimer for low league players and say this isn't designed to be a competitive build, but is moreso for fun and will not help you improve your SC2 skill.
I dono, maybe i'm biased because this guy makes posts on the bnet forums attention-whoring because he got master league (and demoted a few days later), or because his other thread got locked by a mod due to him calling people in TL strategy "dorks on a forum". OR because he just got banned for making a thread raging at the mods for closing a different thread of his.
Yes, he put some effort into the OP. But how much of it was to get attention and more views for his youtube channel, and how much of it was to legitimately create a good sc2 "strategy" that will help players out, is up to you to decide.
Quite frankly it doesn't matter if this guide won't work against GM level. The point of the guide is to open our eyes to see other ways of doing things, for you guys to bash the OP is being elitist is the epitiomite of snobbishness which shouldn't be allowed.
There are other strats and other ways to play the game, not always MMMVG vs protoss or marine/tank vs zerg. Seeing stuff like this is interesting and like Yoshi said, if Rainbow can beat other KR on his ladder, using a variation of mass raven, then it's definitely saying something.
Sorry if you guys turn up your nose at new strats, I for one fully support the OP. I do not care one iota that he is a little bit of a showboat(who cares?)
On April 14 2012 08:24 HammerSC2 wrote: Introduction
Hi guys, this is a really a fun build I've been doing for some time now; the core army composition is Raven Viking Banshee - in that order. The opening (reaper/marauder/medivac) is a strong, unique one that is really effective with good micro. With a quick third, and solid defense, the build sets the stage for an often confusing and effective mid-game versus zerg opponents.
Please let me know if you have any questions and CONSTRUCTIVE feedback - I will not be responding to otherwise negative responses that are not beneficial to the thread. This build may not work at the highest levels, but I am sharing it for MAINSTREAM players I have had success with it at a Diamond/Masters level. It's really fun to pull off and to watch! Cheers.
Build Order
10 Supply Depot 12 Barracks 14 Barracks 15 Orbital Command 15 Refinery x 2 16 Marine 16 Supply Depot 18 Tech Lab x 2 20 Reaper x 2 23 Command Center ---> Delay 1 SCV 23 Factory 24 Reaper x 2 28 Marauder x 2 30 Starport 33 Orbital Command 33 Reaper x 2 36 Medivac ---> Move OC to natural 39 Command Center
Now...
o Move barracks to make a wall at natural o Pull 8 SCV's to natural and build 2 x refineries, ebay (wall), bunker (behind), supply depot o Push out with your 8 minute timing attack force o Put factory and starport on tech labs o Start making tanks (5/6 + siege tech), marines, 2 x bunkers, turrets as minerals allow o Move 3rd CC to appropriate base, quickly make into PF and put down turrets o Make sure all bases have 4-6 missile turrets - more if you suspect heavy muta play o Research Hi-Sec Autotracking and Building Armor from the ebay o Lay down 5 starports as money allows, and begin Corvid Reactor research o 5 starports should have a tech lab, 1 core reactor o Produce non-stop ravens, vikings, banshee's (rough ratio 4:2:1) o Research Durable Materials and Seeker Missile o Based on what you scout and tech switches produce units accordingly (ie: air based more vikings, heavy lings/ground more banshees) o Once minerals allow build additional CC's and 6-10 barracks
Analysis - Early Game
The build does a few things early on; zerg typically will produce lings/spines in order to counter "2 rax" aggression that they scout. Then, on seeing reapers, zerg will often build more lings/spines to counter the harass, especially if you kill early lings with your first 2 reapers. This helps reduce early zerg economy. If the zerg player has a large amount of lings, to the point that it is restricting your ability to use reapers for map control, be cautious with the reapers and keep them close or in your natural until you push out (you've already done "damage" as he has less workers due to the lings).
One aspect of the build I like is the ability to counter early bust aggression without having to overly react. The reason why I do 2 reaper, 2 reaper, 2 marauder, 2 reaper (in that order) is to have some marauders available to counter early roach pressure or bain busts. That coupled with creative walling at the main, and then natural should help a lot of players with early game aggression.
During the 8 minute timing attack try to skirt edges as much as possible. Use mineral/extractor gaps to limit the surface area of the army to lings and be careful to not let the medivac be focused by queens. You can also use the vision of the medivac to micro the units up/down cliffs. If there are more than 3 or so roaches, do what damage you can and leave. If there are is an overwhelming amount of lings, same thing applies. Often if I don't do damage, I go to the expected third expansion to deny it, and keep them "pinned" as I establish my own third.
On April 14 2012 15:38 D_K_night wrote: Quite frankly it doesn't matter if this guide won't work against GM level. The point of the guide is to open our eyes to see other ways of doing things, for you guys to bash the OP is being elitist is the epitiomite of snobbishness which shouldn't be allowed.
There are other strats and other ways to play the game, not always MMMVG vs protoss or marine/tank vs zerg. Seeing stuff like this is interesting and like Yoshi said, if Rainbow can beat other KR on his ladder, using a variation of mass raven, then it's definitely saying something.
Sorry if you guys turn up your nose at new strats, I for one fully support the OP. I do not care one iota that he is a little bit of a showboat(who cares?)
AGREE!!! in all points!!!
Nice job, Mr. HammerSc2...your TvP works greate for me....very big thnks for sharing this with us!
Dont care about haters, most of them never do something for the community.
who cares if BO works in Master or GM....they represent only 3 % of the SC2 community...
On April 14 2012 15:38 D_K_night wrote: Quite frankly it doesn't matter if this guide won't work against GM level. The point of the guide is to open our eyes to see other ways of doing things, for you guys to bash the OP is being elitist is the epitiomite of snobbishness which shouldn't be allowed.
There are other strats and other ways to play the game, not always MMMVG vs protoss or marine/tank vs zerg. Seeing stuff like this is interesting and like Yoshi said, if Rainbow can beat other KR on his ladder, using a variation of mass raven, then it's definitely saying something.
Sorry if you guys turn up your nose at new strats, I for one fully support the OP. I do not care one iota that he is a little bit of a showboat(who cares?)
the point of the guide is to open our eyes? we all knew that mass raven exists. is it good? no. can it work 1/10 games if a player with SC:BW mechanics does it (rainbow) SURE!
but MOST of the time, you are relying on your opponent to be bad with strats like this. do you want the TL strategy forum to be known for it's guides that only work if your opponent is bad? I surely don't. That's what the bnet forums are for.
and LMAO at the guy with 1 post above me. Hammer gets banned. Then suddenly a wild 1-post-user appears to defend himself in the thread! I wonder who it is!!
On April 14 2012 15:38 D_K_night wrote: Quite frankly it doesn't matter if this guide won't work against GM level. The point of the guide is to open our eyes to see other ways of doing things, for you guys to bash the OP is being elitist is the epitiomite of snobbishness which shouldn't be allowed.
There are other strats and other ways to play the game, not always MMMVG vs protoss or marine/tank vs zerg. Seeing stuff like this is interesting and like Yoshi said, if Rainbow can beat other KR on his ladder, using a variation of mass raven, then it's definitely saying something.
Sorry if you guys turn up your nose at new strats, I for one fully support the OP. I do not care one iota that he is a little bit of a showboat(who cares?)
the point of the guide is to open our eyes? we all knew that mass raven exists. is it good? no. can it work 1/10 games if a player with SC:BW mechanics does it (rainbow) SURE!
but MOST of the time, you are relying on your opponent to be bad with strats like this. do you want the TL strategy forum to be known for it's guides that only work if your opponent is bad? I surely don't. That's what the bnet forums are for.
and LMAO at the guy with 1 post above me. Hammer gets banned. Then suddenly a wild 1-post-user appears to defend himself in the thread! I wonder who it is!!
Then again, it all comes down to how many games you win. Are you saying that if people don't know how to defend vs something, you should not abuse that? Who are you to judge what people spend their time on? I play mech cus even if it is "harder", I am successful with it, and part of that has to do with players being much more used to playing vs bio.
Anyway, my point is he should at least put some disclaimer for low league players and say this isn't designed to be a competitive build, but is moreso for fun and will not help you improve your SC2 skill.
I thought this was pretty clear from the OP and his replies o.o
On April 14 2012 11:14 Inquisitor1323 wrote: The viability of his build doesnt necessarily matter. This isnt some elitist club for Master's players so all the builds don't have to be tailored to you. This guy put time into his build and worked hard, so stop shitting on him.
People are being critical so the level in the strategy section stays on par. If I as a master player am browsing this section I don't want to have to triple check for what level it is meant.
EPT
