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On April 14 2012 18:38 Baseic wrote:
People are being critical so the level in the strategy section stays on par. If I as a master player am browsing this section I don't want to have to triple check for what level it is meant.
In many ways it goes the other way around as well. If I as a plat level browse this section I want to find some strategies that work at my level and does not require Master level mechanics to pull off.
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How will you defend such a quick 3rd CC without tanks or banshees?
It's like writing a guide where you're relying on a hidden expansion ㅜ.ㅜ
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On April 14 2012 10:40 HammerSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 09:27 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Again, how would you stop ling infestor fast upgrades for a 2/2 bust?
Or, how would you stop an econ bane bust?
Or, how would you stop a roach bane bust?
My three questions. I don't really have too many problems with busts at the natural (as it is heavily walled with siege tanks and bunkers behind, but sometimes at the third if I haven't built up effective defense. If my third goes down usually it's at a fairly large loss to zerg and I try to quickly reestablish the third. PF's with upgrades (5 armor) are pretty beefy especially if you build supply depots/CC's around it  Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 09:35 iAmJeffReY wrote:Your reapers will be out faster. Here's an example of the opening, it's my TvT opening and surprisingly works well against Z for what you're trying to accomplish. http://drop.sc/159131I don't know why you delay gas, but if you just cut an scv early you can get gas earlier, and have a better, more streamline economy and still achieve the same goals, if not faster. That build order is an interesting idea, and I will definitely take a look at it. Cheers
Going RR - RR - MM - RR you will not have tanks + siege out in time to defend a econ bane bust (~7-8 min) or a roach bane bust (~8-10min)
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On April 14 2012 08:54 Drolla wrote:
The fact that you are using Vikings as anti air means that mutas will just overrun you.
There is a reason why builds like this are not done at a pro level and it is because they are so easily exploitable.
Why bother to respond if you dont bother reading the OP? It clearly states in the 2nd paragraph that it probably wont work at higher levels, and absolutely nowhere does it say "hey pro's look here - its a build that will work at your level!"
Seems like a fun build to try at MY level (silver league).
Keep up the good work Hammer, I really enjoy your builds and the nice instruction videos you apparently put a lot of effort into (they are NEVER included in posts that claim to work at higher levels).
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On April 15 2012 02:25 Grubbegrabbn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 08:54 Drolla wrote:
The fact that you are using Vikings as anti air means that mutas will just overrun you.
There is a reason why builds like this are not done at a pro level and it is because they are so easily exploitable. Why bother to respond if you dont bother reading the OP? It clearly states in the 2nd paragraph that it probably wont work at higher levels, and absolutely nowhere does it say "hey pro's look here - its a build that will work at your level!" Seems like a fun build to try at MY level (silver league). Keep up the good work Hammer, I really enjoy your builds and the nice instruction videos you apparently put a lot of effort into (they are NEVER included in posts that claim to work at higher levels).
That's the thing. Mass air/raven isn't very friendly. One chain fungal and your lowapm non spread units all die. It takes APM to play auto turrets, PDD, cast out seeker missles and not lose all your ravens in the process. Which, at your level, you don't have. If you have any want to improve, hammer's builds both TvP and TvZ are garbage and will not do anything but get you free fluke wins against noobs on ladder. You will reach a point where they don't work, and will be unprepared to go back and play any other style because all you did were 1a cheeses.
If you want to get to mass ravens, do a nice FE -> siege expand -> 3rd CC and just bunker + tank + marine on 3 base to get 6 gas, then go into 3 port, as 5 ports is just stupid. You won't be able to support 5 ports on 2 bases, along with marines, and tanks..
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If you want to get to mass ravens, search avilo's late game tvz raven transition. Don't use hammer's garbage builds. The guy got banned for trying to spam the forum with his shitty guides.
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On April 14 2012 15:58 blebb wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 15:38 D_K_night wrote:
Quite frankly it doesn't matter if this guide won't work against GM level. The point of the guide is to open our eyes to see other ways of doing things, for you guys to bash the OP is being elitist is the epitiomite of snobbishness which shouldn't be allowed.
There are other strats and other ways to play the game, not always MMMVG vs protoss or marine/tank vs zerg. Seeing stuff like this is interesting and like Yoshi said, if Rainbow can beat other KR on his ladder, using a variation of mass raven, then it's definitely saying something.
Sorry if you guys turn up your nose at new strats, I for one fully support the OP. I do not care one iota that he is a little bit of a showboat(who cares?) AGREE!!! in all points!!! Nice job, Mr. HammerSc2...your TvP works greate for me....very big thnks for sharing this with us! Dont care about haters, most of them never do something for the community. who cares if BO works in Master or GM....they represent only 3 % of the SC2 community... tnks again for posting your BO, ill try it.
Thank you sir. Much appreciated! I'm glad to hear your having some fun with the builds. Let me know if you ever have any questions hammer#218.
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On April 14 2012 16:26 MashuOni wrote:
Have you include banshees in your unit composition?
I def include banshees in the composition now. If you look at the notes you will see that is mentioned, and the video's are earlier renditions of the build. Banshee's are pretty key if the opponent is running a good ground game (lings), and also for helping to counter infestor play.
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Again with the shameless bumping. Banshees do not 'counter' Infestors. Infestors are only weak to Banshees if the Zerg is significantly less skilled than you. In fact, Infestors annihilate everything about this build.
Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor, the most standard of late game compositions, while be out by the time you have any decent number of ravens. Corruptors+Fungal are pretty good against Raven/Banshee I hear.
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This was definitely a "WTF am I playing against" build. It seems like infestors can be strong against this, but can be mitigated by splitting the air force some to avoid huge fungals. Feels like kind of a meta-game build in that it throws people off as one of the strong points, but we'll see if I get rematched against you.
PS. Sorry for the bit of BM (not leaving) I was on a bit of a losing streak. Also there actually was pizza.
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On April 17 2012 03:04 crocodile wrote:
Again with the shameless bumping. Banshees do not 'counter' Infestors. Infestors are only weak to Banshees if the Zerg is significantly less skilled than you. In fact, Infestors annihilate everything about this build.
Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor, the most standard of late game compositions, while be out by the time you have any decent number of ravens. Corruptors+Fungal are pretty good against Raven/Banshee I hear.
I haven't responded to many of the posts, that's okay if I do isn't it? Lol you're hilarious.
A curious question, do you use a mass raven build, do you have experience implementing play with them? I do.. and Banshees absolutely help to mitigate Infestors with my build. You give very strong opinions and I suspect you have limited experience using mass ravens.
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On April 17 2012 03:05 SirPsychoMantis wrote:
This was definitely a "WTF am I playing against" build. It seems like infestors can be strong against this, but can be mitigated by splitting the air force some to avoid huge fungals. Feels like kind of a meta-game build in that it throws people off as one of the strong points, but we'll see if I get rematched against you.
PS. Sorry for the bit of BM (not leaving) I was on a bit of a losing streak. Also there actually was pizza.
Haha quite alright! I remember our game.. it does seem suspicious though that your units were still being moved even after you "left the room"  Part of what makes the build successful on the ladder is as you mentioned, throwing opponents off as its not even close to standard play. Thanks for being a good sport, and for your feedback!
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what do you do if your opponents dont bank 5k minerals and use it for spores spines etc?
and what do you do if they dont let you get your ninja expansion? you cant move out with 2 base raven/vikings
1 more thing: when you make videos and refer to unitslost/ressorcenlost:
you should consider that you mostly only use gas. so most of your ressorcen are in turrets and stuff that actually do nothing. if it would be calculated the right way it would add all the ressorces you spend on turrets and extra rax and pf you dont even really use. they are there so your opponent doesnt hit you hard. but if he doesnt even try to kill you you just loose like 10k ressorcec only to turrets and pfs and rax which dont do anything
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On April 17 2012 03:15 HammerSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 03:04 crocodile wrote:
Again with the shameless bumping. Banshees do not 'counter' Infestors. Infestors are only weak to Banshees if the Zerg is significantly less skilled than you. In fact, Infestors annihilate everything about this build.
Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor, the most standard of late game compositions, while be out by the time you have any decent number of ravens. Corruptors+Fungal are pretty good against Raven/Banshee I hear. I haven't responded to many of the posts, that's okay if I do isn't it? Lol you're hilarious. A curious question, do you use a mass raven build, do you have experience implementing play with them? I do.. and Banshees absolutely help to mitigate Infestors with my build. You give very strong opinions and I suspect you have limited experience using mass ravens.
why the passive aggressiveness? He brings up a pretty good point, infestors seem pretty strong vs. this, and banshees would likely only work if the zerg isn't being active, or leaves his infestors lying around. Just saying 'you have limited experience', therefore your opinion is null doesn't really help discussion right? Reading this thread, I'd have liked to see intelligent responses to intelligent questions.
If banshees work, how do they work? If banshees don't work vs infestor play, isn't that a weakness people should be made aware of and be able to discuss? Saying that banshees counter infestors is a pretty radical claim by itself.
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On April 17 2012 03:15 HammerSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 03:04 crocodile wrote:
Again with the shameless bumping. Banshees do not 'counter' Infestors. Infestors are only weak to Banshees if the Zerg is significantly less skilled than you. In fact, Infestors annihilate everything about this build.
Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor, the most standard of late game compositions, while be out by the time you have any decent number of ravens. Corruptors+Fungal are pretty good against Raven/Banshee I hear. I haven't responded to many of the posts, that's okay if I do isn't it? Lol you're hilarious. A curious question, do you use a mass raven build, do you have experience implementing play with them? I do.. and Banshees absolutely help to mitigate Infestors with my build. You give very strong opinions and I suspect you have limited experience using mass ravens.
How do banshees help mitigate infestors?
Infestors counter both banshees and ravens because both units are used as "harass" type of units, meaning you're kiting them back and forth on your attacks. 1 fungal ruins both.
*and just for the record I'm a high diamond player(600 pt) and I've tried using a mass raven build. As many others have pointed out your build is terrible and makes little to no sense.
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On April 14 2012 09:21 DKR wrote:
Haters gonna hate, I mean it's not a reliable build, but some people might not enjoy that, they enjoy the quirky stuff the game has to offer. As long as there is detail in your guide, I see no reason for it to not be posted.
And potatoes gonna potate.
IMO (and others as well) strategy should be reserved for "reliable" builds as well as discussion of those trusty strategies. This seems like one guy's weird build that has some big holes, which others have pointed out.
IMO, this doesn't belong in Strategy. OP, make a blog and post it there.
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On April 17 2012 03:39 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 03:15 HammerSC2 wrote:On April 17 2012 03:04 crocodile wrote:
Again with the shameless bumping. Banshees do not 'counter' Infestors. Infestors are only weak to Banshees if the Zerg is significantly less skilled than you. In fact, Infestors annihilate everything about this build.
Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor, the most standard of late game compositions, while be out by the time you have any decent number of ravens. Corruptors+Fungal are pretty good against Raven/Banshee I hear. I haven't responded to many of the posts, that's okay if I do isn't it? Lol you're hilarious. A curious question, do you use a mass raven build, do you have experience implementing play with them? I do.. and Banshees absolutely help to mitigate Infestors with my build. You give very strong opinions and I suspect you have limited experience using mass ravens. why the passive aggressiveness? He brings up a pretty good point, infestors seem pretty strong vs. this, and banshees would likely only work if the zerg isn't being active, or leaves his infestors lying around. Just saying 'you have limited experience', therefore your opinion is null doesn't really help discussion right? Reading this thread, I'd have liked to see intelligent responses to intelligent questions. If banshees work, how do they work? If banshees don't work vs infestor play, isn't that a weakness people should be made aware of and be able to discuss? Saying that banshees counter infestors is a pretty radical claim by itself.
Said poster is consistently rude on threads; saying something nonconstructive and obnoxious and then continuing to ask pertinent questions to make it a relevant post. Moving along..
I have had good success using banshee's in the composition to help mete infestor play (not hard countering them or anything). Infestors are a great unit to be sure, and with good control can be hard to deal with. This build requires you to be cautious and use effective scans regularly. Having banshees on the field forces the opponent to maintain good control of the infestors and, coupled with ravens laying down turrets and proper control (not clumping), works well in many situations.
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Ive tried this style and the marauder reaper opening is very nice but mass raven is just not a very good composition. It dies to fingal so easily.
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Great build if you're interested in having fun but not winning. Have you every tried the "Mass Landed Vikings with +3 Armor" strat. I've beaten some zergs with it before. I've also lost a lot too.
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EPT
