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Also, where is your mid and late game analysis? That part of the guide appears to have been under construction for quite a while now.
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On April 17 2012 10:24 FinalForm wrote:
What league are you?
Bouncin between Masters and Diamond. I lose more games than I should as I try a lot non-conventional builds on ladder to feature them on my channel 
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On April 17 2012 09:24 HammerSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 08:55 Treva wrote:
I see problems with your build, all of which cover the spectrum of a game that would go into the later stages. Sorry for the wall of text, I tried to break it up to make it more bearable and these are just my personal thoughts about your build.
Early Game:
Early roach would shut down your push and set you far behind. The meta game for TvZ right now, at least in masters of NA, is favoring zergs to get early roaches to try to punish greedy hellion play or used preemptively for defense. A very ill prepared and greedy zerg would have problems with your push I admit but an early scout of a 2 rax opener usually leaves zergs more cautious about expanding/droning (being greedy) and defensive. Another note would be a quick muta build, like the one in your youtube video in the op. This type of opener makes you have absolutely no map awareness from the point your opponent has mutas to the point you move out and forces you to sink very large amounts of money in turrets as the few marines would be no match for a counter attack. No map presence, or even threat of map presence, leaves the zerg to do almost anything.
Mid Game:
Your follow up is basically turtle super, super hard until you get a mass amount of ravens. That is a kind of transition that relies on you doing MASSIVE amounts of early damage with your reaper push. I'm talking the amount of damage that should end a game but your opponent decides to stay in anyway. However my problem is the degree of turtling. You can not be aggressive at all in the mid game, period. You have almost no ground force, any extra cash is spend in defense and ravens in small numbers aren't very good, meaning you need to sit and wait until you get a massive amount of them before looking to threaten your opponent. Any zerg who saw you turtle THAT hard would just take every available base on the map and just keep trading until you are starved out or just sit and wait for you to push, eventually destroy your army with their superior economy and then starve you out. Again, no map presence and no way of being aggressive is not a good position to be in, regardless of the MU.
Late Game:
Finally the re-enforcement option is basically air as you are pretty much just left with starports, and pure air against Zerg is pretty bad unless, again, you have a huge advantage from earlier in the game. You also will have a very hard time getting more bases (on most maps past 3) as this build needs massive structural defense in order to protect a base and getting that defense can be made pretty much impossible by a zerg who doesn't have even a scouting overlord at every base he/she doesn't have. I mean you could try to sneak a base, like you did in your video, and hope they don't scout it but that's a very unreliable approach which only becomes more difficult the better the opponent you're playing.
Side Note:
If this build is meant for the lower leagues then disregard my criticisms as I can see it being fun and effective there. I'm just a masters terran so my view comes from if I were playing a masters zerg which if was the case I could not see this build being very successful. I do applaud you for coming here and posting a build you created yourself. I know it's not easy to have people dissect something you thought up so props for that. I appreciate constructive feedback You make some great points! There are a few things I have been considering that maybe you could comment on: 1) Producing 2-4 Banshee's following the 8 minute push; to have some mid-game pressure and force zerg to spend $ on defense and perhaps channel them towards muta play 2) While building several defensive siege tanks, research blue flame then build reactor on factory and pump helli's for better map control/harass and for securing expansions easier. I will say though, I don't have too many problems with early game pressure. The threat of two rax typically reduces some early econ for my opponent, and when they see reapers on the field even more so. I typically push in with the first 2 reapers, scout as much as possible, kill workers and force more defense spending. Also if the reaper/marauder timing attack isn't an effective one, it doesn't mean you lose all the units and can often still drop (or threaten to) in order to pin and deny 3rd.
Instead of banshees I would recommend just getting a few medis especially if you plan on going the blue flame route. Sending out little squads of hellions in the early part of the mid game and dropping them in bases can be helpful harass. The thing with hellions though with zerg is that as the game goes on, pretty much past the early portion of the mid game where creep spread may not be terribly good, is that hellions get less and less effective. I mean making banshees, while it can be good, to force mutas only makes your hellions much less useful. With hellions and drops you force a lot more defense (spines, in base units for defense) and it's a lot easier to drop and roam the map with hellions when mutas aren't present since once you get a good amount of them zerg needs either help from roaches or something like mutas.
Hellions will help you establish a little more map control near your base but mid-late game and onward they will essentially become useless for that, if you want to use them then you need to use them for drops or punish zergs who take bases away from their main and have little to no defense. However usually once you show that you will be consistently making hellions, zergs will prepare in advance pretty well with spines for potential run-bys.
Of course this all goes in the theory testing category, I would try it out a few games and just see what happens, how it feels. You do float a lot of minerals, which is the case with a lot of heavy gas builds, so you won't really be sacrificing much except 150 gas for BF upgrade. While I don't think this particular build and style will be supportive of hellions for map control and harass I can't say for sure since I haven't messed with it or thought about it too long. Best of luck.
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On April 17 2012 10:34 HammerSC2 wrote:Bouncin between Masters and Diamond. I lose more games than I should as I try a lot non-conventional builds on ladder to feature them on my channel
Boy, you should see the games on his channel. I just took a few minutes to zip through them; wow. I know it's been said before, but he is facing TERRIBLE opponents. In one game the Zerg goes for straight Broodlords with absolutely no AA and just amoves them to Hammer's base. Another game, the Zerg suicides like 20 mutas into a fuckton of turrets. In another game, the Zerg goes for Broodlord/Corruptor with no Infestors! Absolutely no games demonstrating him playing vs Infestors in any significant numbers.
My point is, this build will only work against opponents who have so little knowledge of the metagame that they do not think to make Infestor/Corruptor/Broodlord even when left unharassed for basically the entire game. There's a reason there are no replays of him playing vs zergs who are not embarrassingly bad.
On a side note: Hammer's voice is quite annoying.
Furthermore, take note of the fact that Hammer is actively replying to people in the thread giving him praise and suggesting things to him, but he has not addressed my concerns with the build which I have listed at least 4 times, nor those of IamJeffrey, nor Aegis, nor anybody else who isn't sucking his dick, and uses way too many of these annoying smiley faces.
User was temp banned for this post.
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@ crocodile Sticks and stones bud. Grow up. I'm not making comments about the picture in your profile of some big time loser and a really ugly fat girl, because there is no need to make it personal right? And you go on my channel and go on crazy immature swearing rants... you've got a few screws loose my man. You're rude, abrasive and a troll and there's no need to respond to people like you.
On topic: I have answered questions on how I respond to early pressure from roach/bain/ling. Please refer to my previous posts.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On April 17 2012 10:36 Treva wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 09:24 HammerSC2 wrote:On April 17 2012 08:55 Treva wrote:
I see problems with your build, all of which cover the spectrum of a game that would go into the later stages. Sorry for the wall of text, I tried to break it up to make it more bearable and these are just my personal thoughts about your build.
Early Game:
Early roach would shut down your push and set you far behind. The meta game for TvZ right now, at least in masters of NA, is favoring zergs to get early roaches to try to punish greedy hellion play or used preemptively for defense. A very ill prepared and greedy zerg would have problems with your push I admit but an early scout of a 2 rax opener usually leaves zergs more cautious about expanding/droning (being greedy) and defensive. Another note would be a quick muta build, like the one in your youtube video in the op. This type of opener makes you have absolutely no map awareness from the point your opponent has mutas to the point you move out and forces you to sink very large amounts of money in turrets as the few marines would be no match for a counter attack. No map presence, or even threat of map presence, leaves the zerg to do almost anything.
Mid Game:
Your follow up is basically turtle super, super hard until you get a mass amount of ravens. That is a kind of transition that relies on you doing MASSIVE amounts of early damage with your reaper push. I'm talking the amount of damage that should end a game but your opponent decides to stay in anyway. However my problem is the degree of turtling. You can not be aggressive at all in the mid game, period. You have almost no ground force, any extra cash is spend in defense and ravens in small numbers aren't very good, meaning you need to sit and wait until you get a massive amount of them before looking to threaten your opponent. Any zerg who saw you turtle THAT hard would just take every available base on the map and just keep trading until you are starved out or just sit and wait for you to push, eventually destroy your army with their superior economy and then starve you out. Again, no map presence and no way of being aggressive is not a good position to be in, regardless of the MU.
Late Game:
Finally the re-enforcement option is basically air as you are pretty much just left with starports, and pure air against Zerg is pretty bad unless, again, you have a huge advantage from earlier in the game. You also will have a very hard time getting more bases (on most maps past 3) as this build needs massive structural defense in order to protect a base and getting that defense can be made pretty much impossible by a zerg who doesn't have even a scouting overlord at every base he/she doesn't have. I mean you could try to sneak a base, like you did in your video, and hope they don't scout it but that's a very unreliable approach which only becomes more difficult the better the opponent you're playing.
Side Note:
If this build is meant for the lower leagues then disregard my criticisms as I can see it being fun and effective there. I'm just a masters terran so my view comes from if I were playing a masters zerg which if was the case I could not see this build being very successful. I do applaud you for coming here and posting a build you created yourself. I know it's not easy to have people dissect something you thought up so props for that. I appreciate constructive feedback You make some great points! There are a few things I have been considering that maybe you could comment on: 1) Producing 2-4 Banshee's following the 8 minute push; to have some mid-game pressure and force zerg to spend $ on defense and perhaps channel them towards muta play 2) While building several defensive siege tanks, research blue flame then build reactor on factory and pump helli's for better map control/harass and for securing expansions easier. I will say though, I don't have too many problems with early game pressure. The threat of two rax typically reduces some early econ for my opponent, and when they see reapers on the field even more so. I typically push in with the first 2 reapers, scout as much as possible, kill workers and force more defense spending. Also if the reaper/marauder timing attack isn't an effective one, it doesn't mean you lose all the units and can often still drop (or threaten to) in order to pin and deny 3rd. Instead of banshees I would recommend just getting a few medis especially if you plan on going the blue flame route. Sending out little squads of hellions in the early part of the mid game and dropping them in bases can be helpful harass. The thing with hellions though with zerg is that as the game goes on, pretty much past the early portion of the mid game where creep spread may not be terribly good, is that hellions get less and less effective. I mean making banshees, while it can be good, to force mutas only makes your hellions much less useful. With hellions and drops you force a lot more defense (spines, in base units for defense) and it's a lot easier to drop and roam the map with hellions when mutas aren't present since once you get a good amount of them zerg needs either help from roaches or something like mutas. Hellions will help you establish a little more map control near your base but mid-late game and onward they will essentially become useless for that, if you want to use them then you need to use them for drops or punish zergs who take bases away from their main and have little to no defense. However usually once you show that you will be consistently making hellions, zergs will prepare in advance pretty well with spines for potential run-bys. Of course this all goes in the theory testing category, I would try it out a few games and just see what happens, how it feels. You do float a lot of minerals, which is the case with a lot of heavy gas builds, so you won't really be sacrificing much except 150 gas for BF upgrade. While I don't think this particular build and style will be supportive of hellions for map control and harass I can't say for sure since I haven't messed with it or thought about it too long. Best of luck.
Thanks Treva. I appreciate your insight and the thoughtful response. If you have any other idea's I would like to hear em Cheers.
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EPT
