[G] TvZ Hammer RRR - Mass Raven!!! - Page 5

On April 17 2012 06:23 crocodile wrote:
I'd just like to add to the thread that Hammer is PMing me personal attacks for criticizing him in his thread, while still ignoring every valid point that has been made here.

What a joke.

On April 17 2012 06:27 SomeONEx wrote:
Gonna check it out tomorrow, going to sleep now.

On April 17 2012 08:55 Treva wrote:
I see problems with your build, all of which cover the spectrum of a game that would go into the later stages. Sorry for the wall of text, I tried to break it up to make it more bearable and these are just my personal thoughts about your build.

Early Game:

Early roach would shut down your push and set you far behind. The meta game for TvZ right now, at least in masters of NA, is favoring zergs to get early roaches to try to punish greedy hellion play or used preemptively for defense. A very ill prepared and greedy zerg would have problems with your push I admit but an early scout of a 2 rax opener usually leaves zergs more cautious about expanding/droning (being greedy) and defensive. Another note would be a quick muta build, like the one in your youtube video in the op. This type of opener makes you have absolutely no map awareness from the point your opponent has mutas to the point you move out and forces you to sink very large amounts of money in turrets as the few marines would be no match for a counter attack. No map presence, or even threat of map presence, leaves the zerg to do almost anything.

Mid Game:

Your follow up is basically turtle super, super hard until you get a mass amount of ravens. That is a kind of transition that relies on you doing MASSIVE amounts of early damage with your reaper push. I'm talking the amount of damage that should end a game but your opponent decides to stay in anyway. However my problem is the degree of turtling. You can not be aggressive at all in the mid game, period. You have almost no ground force, any extra cash is spend in defense and ravens in small numbers aren't very good, meaning you need to sit and wait until you get a massive amount of them before looking to threaten your opponent. Any zerg who saw you turtle THAT hard would just take every available base on the map and just keep trading until you are starved out or just sit and wait for you to push, eventually destroy your army with their superior economy and then starve you out. Again, no map presence and no way of being aggressive is not a good position to be in, regardless of the MU.

Late Game:

Finally the re-enforcement option is basically air as you are pretty much just left with starports, and pure air against Zerg is pretty bad unless, again, you have a huge advantage from earlier in the game. You also will have a very hard time getting more bases (on most maps past 3) as this build needs massive structural defense in order to protect a base and getting that defense can be made pretty much impossible by a zerg who doesn't have even a scouting overlord at every base he/she doesn't have. I mean you could try to sneak a base, like you did in your video, and hope they don't scout it but that's a very unreliable approach which only becomes more difficult the better the opponent you're playing.

Side Note:

If this build is meant for the lower leagues then disregard my criticisms as I can see it being fun and effective there. I'm just a masters terran so my view comes from if I were playing a masters zerg which if was the case I could not see this build being very successful. I do applaud you for coming here and posting a build you created yourself. I know it's not easy to have people dissect something you thought up so props for that.

On April 17 2012 09:29 Vanchen wrote:
Just a thought, if this is for lower league players, diamond and under perhaps, won't they have a very hard time using ravens. I mean I have a tough time using just 5 ravens with my lategame army and I'm masters. It just doesn't seem very noob friendly becuase one fungal will kill all your ravens and lower league players can't split air units well.

On April 17 2012 09:43 kyllinghest wrote:
You keep floating so many minerals, is there any way you can build some usefull stuff with the cash? Just building hellions and marines and attack moving them across the map is better than banking several thousand minerals while you're not even at 100 suply at the 19 minute mark.
I think your opening is cool and creative, but I also think it could be a good idea to stop building reapers earlier, so you can focus your gas towards tanks and setting up a good infastructure.
How zergs with infestors fail to win against this is beyond my grasp, but its cool that you innovate and try out new things even though they perhaps arn't viable at the top level. How many people are top level anyways? Interesting build, I'll be sure to try it out.

On April 17 2012 09:52 DYEAlabaster wrote:
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't it against the rules to post a very poorly thought out, unviable build with little evidence/sense to it? Shouldn't this have a [H] tag with the OP asking how to make this build work (in any sense) at a reasonably competitive level?

Isn't that what this forum is about?

Moreover, the OP isn't answering criticisms from the people trying to help him, doesn't that warrant a closure?

On topic- mass raven/viking/banshee (ie, sky terran) works only vs T in ultra-late-game or in weird games v mass toss air (say you were going mech, they went air, you could counter with this)

On April 17 2012 09:52 DYEAlabaster wrote:
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't it against the rules to post a very poorly thought out, unviable build with little evidence/sense to it? Shouldn't this have a [H] tag with the OP asking how to make this build work (in any sense) at a reasonably competitive level?

Isn't that what this forum is about?

Moreover, the OP isn't answering criticisms from the people trying to help him, doesn't that warrant a closure?

On topic- mass raven/viking/banshee (ie, sky terran) works only vs T in ultra-late-game or in weird games v mass toss air (say you were going mech, they went air, you could counter with this)