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On April 17 2012 04:48 FinalForm wrote:
Great build if you're interested in having fun but not winning. Have you every tried the "Mass Landed Vikings with +3 Armor" strat. I've beaten some zergs with it before. I've also lost a lot too.
I'm not sure what to tell you.. I win more than I lose with the build. In my mind that makes it viable.
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I can't see how this build holds a roach ling bling all-in between 8 and 10 minutes.
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The issue here is all you do is ignore anyone with good questions, and statements and just pass them off.
Much like my how do you stop a bane, or roach bane bust. In the video I watched, it's 10 minutes, well past either of these busts and you have 47 supply..
2 marauders pop at 7:20. A roach attack off a hatch first will hit before that, as they cross the map about the time 2-4 hellions are out, before 6:30.
Oh, and you should've won with the reaper/marauder attack if you had any idea of micro. Again, 10 minutes, 38 supply.
On April 17 2012 05:05 chadissilent wrote:
I can't see how this build holds a roach ling bling all-in between 8 and 10 minutes.
Asked again, I asked on page 1 and got told he does it with sim city, which is a joke because one roach bane bust and he's dead, there's no coming back.
The thing is it doesn't, it has been asked already and Hammer has been succesful at dodging the question.
Exactly, he dodges any real proof of holes, and only answers people who praise this 'build'
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On April 17 2012 05:05 chadissilent wrote:
I can't see how this build holds a roach ling bling all-in between 8 and 10 minutes.
The thing is it doesn't, it has been asked already and Hammer has been succesful at dodging the question.
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On April 17 2012 05:12 Cokefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 05:05 chadissilent wrote:
I can't see how this build holds a roach ling bling all-in between 8 and 10 minutes. The thing is it doesn't, it has been asked already and Hammer has been succesful at dodging the question.
Which is why I'm asking again. I'm genuinely curious, because if this build can solve that problem I'll start having some of my players work on variation of this build to use in a tournament.
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On April 17 2012 03:56 HammerSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 03:39 caradoc wrote:On April 17 2012 03:15 HammerSC2 wrote:On April 17 2012 03:04 crocodile wrote:
Again with the shameless bumping. Banshees do not 'counter' Infestors. Infestors are only weak to Banshees if the Zerg is significantly less skilled than you. In fact, Infestors annihilate everything about this build.
Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor, the most standard of late game compositions, while be out by the time you have any decent number of ravens. Corruptors+Fungal are pretty good against Raven/Banshee I hear. I haven't responded to many of the posts, that's okay if I do isn't it? Lol you're hilarious. A curious question, do you use a mass raven build, do you have experience implementing play with them? I do.. and Banshees absolutely help to mitigate Infestors with my build. You give very strong opinions and I suspect you have limited experience using mass ravens. why the passive aggressiveness? He brings up a pretty good point, infestors seem pretty strong vs. this, and banshees would likely only work if the zerg isn't being active, or leaves his infestors lying around. Just saying 'you have limited experience', therefore your opinion is null doesn't really help discussion right? Reading this thread, I'd have liked to see intelligent responses to intelligent questions. If banshees work, how do they work? If banshees don't work vs infestor play, isn't that a weakness people should be made aware of and be able to discuss? Saying that banshees counter infestors is a pretty radical claim by itself. Said poster is consistently rude on threads; saying something nonconstructive and obnoxious and then continuing to ask pertinent questions to make it a relevant post. Moving along.. I have had good success using banshee's in the composition to help mete infestor play (not hard countering them or anything). Infestors are a great unit to be sure, and with good control can be hard to deal with. This build requires you to be cautious and use effective scans regularly. Having banshees on the field forces the opponent to maintain good control of the infestors and, coupled with ravens laying down turrets and proper control (not clumping), works well in many situations.
Hammer, what are you trying to accomplish with these guides? It's clear at this point that you don't care about actually helping people to play sc2, or about improving your build in any way. People have been asking you relevant questions since page 1 of your guide and you've completely failed at addressing any issues with your build despite your insistence on bumping the guide whenever it falls off the front page of the strategy forum.
As for me being rude, is this coming from the guy who got BANNED for spam posting his absolutely useless guides and making insulting, dismissive posts when defending them? Or do you not remember calling people 'nerdtards' and insisting that anyone who disagreed with you is an angry loser who has no social life?
Also: Inb4 you make a response calling me a nerd, failing to address my original point about standard infestor play, and using lots of smiley faces 
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This is so bad, every Zerg that can macro or think a bit will roflstomp this, i'm sorry.
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On April 17 2012 05:05 chadissilent wrote:
I can't see how this build holds a roach ling bling all-in between 8 and 10 minutes.
This is sometimes difficult to hold depending on the timing - if it hits right as I'm transitioning into my natural for instance. Otherwise though, I put on pressure at my opponents main (with reaper/marine/marauder) to divide his attention, and usually have good walling. If I have to retreat into my natural I do so but typically already have siege tanks in production or on the field at this point.
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Note to self, ignore anyone that puts "SC2" at the end of their handle.
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On April 17 2012 05:36 HammerSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 05:05 chadissilent wrote:
I can't see how this build holds a roach ling bling all-in between 8 and 10 minutes. This is sometimes difficult to hold depending on the timing - if it hits right as I'm transitioning into my natural for instance. Otherwise though, I put on pressure at my opponents main (with reaper/marine/marauder) do divide his attention, and usually have good walling. If I have to retreat into my natural I do so but typically already have siege tanks in production or on the field at this point.
You need bunkers and 2-3 tanks to hold a well executed roach bane bust, that's assuming you have marines already. You have none of this. I don't think you've faced such a bust, is the issue.
Again, 10 min, past roach bane timing, you have just one tank started, no units at home, and under 50 supply. At 10 minutes.
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On April 17 2012 05:42 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 05:36 HammerSC2 wrote:On April 17 2012 05:05 chadissilent wrote:
I can't see how this build holds a roach ling bling all-in between 8 and 10 minutes. This is sometimes difficult to hold depending on the timing - if it hits right as I'm transitioning into my natural for instance. Otherwise though, I put on pressure at my opponents main (with reaper/marine/marauder) do divide his attention, and usually have good walling. If I have to retreat into my natural I do so but typically already have siege tanks in production or on the field at this point. You need bunkers and 2-3 tanks to hold a well executed roach bane bust, that's assuming you have marines already. You have none of this. I don't think you've faced such a bust, is the issue. Again, 10 min, past roach bane timing, you have just one tank started, no units at home, and under 50 supply. At 10 minutes.
You are certainly right on what you need to address a well executed roach-bane bust. When I push out to main, I build an ebay and land the 2 rax to make a formidable wall, and build at least one bunker behind as as begin tank production. I also start producing marines. Perhaps in the video's this happens later, but as I've stated those are earlier examples - and in time I've def learned what kills me through trial and error
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On April 17 2012 05:49 HammerSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 05:42 iAmJeffReY wrote:On April 17 2012 05:36 HammerSC2 wrote:On April 17 2012 05:05 chadissilent wrote:
I can't see how this build holds a roach ling bling all-in between 8 and 10 minutes. This is sometimes difficult to hold depending on the timing - if it hits right as I'm transitioning into my natural for instance. Otherwise though, I put on pressure at my opponents main (with reaper/marine/marauder) do divide his attention, and usually have good walling. If I have to retreat into my natural I do so but typically already have siege tanks in production or on the field at this point. You need bunkers and 2-3 tanks to hold a well executed roach bane bust, that's assuming you have marines already. You have none of this. I don't think you've faced such a bust, is the issue. Again, 10 min, past roach bane timing, you have just one tank started, no units at home, and under 50 supply. At 10 minutes. You are certainly right on what you need to address a well executed roach-bane bust. When I push out to main, I build an ebay and land the 2 rax to make a formidable wall, and build at least one bunker behind as as begin tank production. I also start producing marines. Perhaps in the video's this happens later, but as I've stated those are earlier examples - and in time I've def learned what kills me through trial and error
A barracks wall won't hold 12 roaches and 12-18 banelings with ling rally. You will die every time if you rely on 1 bunker and a barracks wall.
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On April 17 2012 05:53 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 05:49 HammerSC2 wrote:On April 17 2012 05:42 iAmJeffReY wrote:On April 17 2012 05:36 HammerSC2 wrote:On April 17 2012 05:05 chadissilent wrote:
I can't see how this build holds a roach ling bling all-in between 8 and 10 minutes. This is sometimes difficult to hold depending on the timing - if it hits right as I'm transitioning into my natural for instance. Otherwise though, I put on pressure at my opponents main (with reaper/marine/marauder) do divide his attention, and usually have good walling. If I have to retreat into my natural I do so but typically already have siege tanks in production or on the field at this point. You need bunkers and 2-3 tanks to hold a well executed roach bane bust, that's assuming you have marines already. You have none of this. I don't think you've faced such a bust, is the issue. Again, 10 min, past roach bane timing, you have just one tank started, no units at home, and under 50 supply. At 10 minutes. You are certainly right on what you need to address a well executed roach-bane bust. When I push out to main, I build an ebay and land the 2 rax to make a formidable wall, and build at least one bunker behind as as begin tank production. I also start producing marines. Perhaps in the video's this happens later, but as I've stated those are earlier examples - and in time I've def learned what kills me through trial and error A barracks wall won't hold 12 roaches and 12-18 banelings with ling rally. You will die every time if you rely on 1 bunker and a barracks wall.
Correct, that's why I make more bunkers. Also If I see early roaches and suspect strong early aggression I start producing banshees.
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I guess it could be a great build at the lower levels when your opponents aren't able to read your build or have mastered any timings. I just don't see it working at the higher levels right now.
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On April 17 2012 05:57 HammerSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 05:53 chadissilent wrote:On April 17 2012 05:49 HammerSC2 wrote:On April 17 2012 05:42 iAmJeffReY wrote:On April 17 2012 05:36 HammerSC2 wrote:On April 17 2012 05:05 chadissilent wrote:
I can't see how this build holds a roach ling bling all-in between 8 and 10 minutes. This is sometimes difficult to hold depending on the timing - if it hits right as I'm transitioning into my natural for instance. Otherwise though, I put on pressure at my opponents main (with reaper/marine/marauder) do divide his attention, and usually have good walling. If I have to retreat into my natural I do so but typically already have siege tanks in production or on the field at this point. You need bunkers and 2-3 tanks to hold a well executed roach bane bust, that's assuming you have marines already. You have none of this. I don't think you've faced such a bust, is the issue. Again, 10 min, past roach bane timing, you have just one tank started, no units at home, and under 50 supply. At 10 minutes. You are certainly right on what you need to address a well executed roach-bane bust. When I push out to main, I build an ebay and land the 2 rax to make a formidable wall, and build at least one bunker behind as as begin tank production. I also start producing marines. Perhaps in the video's this happens later, but as I've stated those are earlier examples - and in time I've def learned what kills me through trial and error A barracks wall won't hold 12 roaches and 12-18 banelings with ling rally. You will die every time if you rely on 1 bunker and a barracks wall. Correct, that's why I make more bunkers. Also If I see early roaches and suspect strong early aggression I start producing banshees.
bunkers are not enough against roach bane. It's been proven time and time again, it requires tanks, or just fucking sexy ass micro and repair + dodging banes etc.
Which means a unit count. Which is what you DO NOT HAVE at that timing. We're not saying the build is flawed, although I am, it just has an opening in defense you need to look out for if you want to keep lo---err doing it.
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That's the point that this thread really exists to discuss, if anything. Do we want garbage builds like Hammer's on the TL strategy forum, because they appear to be fun and interesting for low level players, or do we think that the strategy forum should have higher standards than this?
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On April 15 2012 02:25 Grubbegrabbn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 08:54 Drolla wrote:
The fact that you are using Vikings as anti air means that mutas will just overrun you.
There is a reason why builds like this are not done at a pro level and it is because they are so easily exploitable. Why bother to respond if you dont bother reading the OP? It clearly states in the 2nd paragraph that it probably wont work at higher levels, and absolutely nowhere does it say "hey pro's look here - its a build that will work at your level!" Seems like a fun build to try at MY level (silver league). Keep up the good work Hammer, I really enjoy your builds and the nice instruction videos you apparently put a lot of effort into (they are NEVER included in posts that claim to work at higher levels).
Well if you want fun builds that work in lower leagues, I'd be happy to write up a guide for my 8 hatch 0/3 150 drone timing push...
It's still an awful guide regardless of it's viability in other leagues. ravens isn't the easiest thing considering they have so many spells and there's nothing in the guide about what spells to use when, when to attack, how to defend against ling infestor, mutaling bling, or any zerg composition for that matter. It says nothing about how to transition in the late game, nothing about how to beat broodlord infestor. There's nothing about army positioning, how to scout what zerg is doing, how to hold various all ins. There's basically nothing to this guide except a build order. I know the guide is under construction, but it's so unrefined that it's not really worth someone's time to use it.
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I'd just like to add to the thread that Hammer is PMing me personal attacks for criticizing him in his thread, while still ignoring every valid point that has been made here.
What a joke.
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On April 17 2012 06:23 crocodile wrote:
I'd just like to add to the thread that Hammer is PMing me personal attacks for criticizing him in his thread, while still ignoring every valid point that has been made here.
What a joke.
I take it you missed his epic posts on bnet forums as well after he got 2-day banned here, title was something like TL forums = nazi germany :D
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Can a mod please close this pathetic excuse for a thread?
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EPT
