Hi guys, this is a really a fun build I've been doing for some time now; the core army composition is Raven Viking Banshee - in that order. The opening (reaper/marauder/medivac) is a strong, unique one that is really effective with good micro. With a quick third, and solid defense, the build sets the stage for an often confusing and effective mid-game versus zerg opponents.
Please let me know if you have any questions and CONSTRUCTIVE feedback - I will not be responding to otherwise negative responses that are not beneficial to the thread. This build may not work at the highest levels, but I am sharing it for MAINSTREAM players I have had success with it at a Diamond/Masters level. It's really fun to pull off and to watch! Cheers.
Build Order
10 Supply Depot 12 Barracks 14 Barracks 15 Orbital Command 15 Refinery x 2 16 Marine 16 Supply Depot 18 Tech Lab x 2 20 Reaper x 2 23 Command Center ---> Delay 1 SCV 23 Factory 24 Reaper x 2 28 Marauder x 2 30 Starport 33 Orbital Command 33 Reaper x 2 36 Medivac ---> Move OC to natural 39 Command Center
Now...
o Move barracks to make a wall at natural o Pull 8 SCV's to natural and build 2 x refineries, ebay (wall), bunker (behind), supply depot o Push out with your 8 minute timing attack force o Put factory and starport on tech labs o Start making tanks (5/6 + siege tech), marines, 2 x bunkers, turrets as minerals allow o Move 3rd CC to appropriate base, quickly make into PF and put down turrets o Make sure all bases have 4-6 missile turrets - more if you suspect heavy muta play o Research Hi-Sec Autotracking and Building Armor from the ebay o Lay down 5 starports as money allows, and begin Corvid Reactor research o 5 starports should have a tech lab, 1 core reactor o Produce non-stop ravens, vikings, banshee's (rough ratio 4:2:1) o Research Durable Materials and Seeker Missile o Based on what you scout and tech switches produce units accordingly (ie: air based more vikings, heavy lings/ground more banshees) o Once minerals allow build additional CC's and 6-10 barracks
Analysis - Early Game
The build does a few things early on; zerg typically will produce lings/spines in order to counter "2 rax" aggression that they scout. Then, on seeing reapers, zerg will often build more lings/spines to counter the harass, especially if you kill early lings with your first 2 reapers. This helps reduce early zerg economy. If the zerg player has a large amount of lings, to the point that it is restricting your ability to use reapers for map control, be cautious with the reapers and keep them close or in your natural until you push out (you've already done "damage" as he has less workers due to the lings).
One aspect of the build I like is the ability to counter early bust aggression without having to overly react. The reason why I do 2 reaper, 2 reaper, 2 marauder, 2 reaper (in that order) is to have some marauders available to counter early roach pressure or bain busts. That coupled with creative walling at the main, and then natural should help a lot of players with early game aggression.
During the 8 minute timing attack try to skirt edges as much as possible. Use mineral/extractor gaps to limit the surface area of the army to lings and be careful to not let the medivac be focused by queens. You can also use the vision of the medivac to micro the units up/down cliffs. If there are more than 3 or so roaches, do what damage you can and leave. If there are is an overwhelming amount of lings, same thing applies. Often if I don't do damage, I go to the expected third expansion to deny it, and keep them "pinned" as I establish my own third.
And what others have said is stilll detrimental to this:
- early mutas wreck your whole build - infestors own your whole army -any zerg who can macro will kill you even if he just ignores your ravens and goes full roach ling whatever
You should stop posting your neat little battle.net guides on tl. Just try to atleast post something solid instead of cheese into cheese into mass my opponent can't scout and macro so I win.
On April 14 2012 08:44 OmegaKnetus wrote: lol how often do you want to post this?
And what others have said is stilll detrimental to this:
- early mutas wreck your whole build - infestors own your whole army -any zerg who can macro will kill you even if he just ignores your ravens and goes full roach ling whatever
You should stop posting your neat little battle.net guides on tl. Just try to atleast post something solid instead of cheese into cheese into mass my opponent can't scout and macro so I win.
The moderators advised that I put more analysis into the post, which I have done, and will continue to do.
The build does well against early muta play, in fact that might be the best thing to face as zerg does not expect the level of defense. The combination of LOTS of early turrets and building range/armor upgrades often quickly nullifies muta harass, and in fact some players keen on continuing the attacks often lose a lot of units/economy.
Against an infestor armies you clearly need to be careful, but you are wrong as I have won many games against zerg opponents using infestors.
Clearly any build/style can be beat, but there are lots of variables such as terrain and decision making that will ultimately lead to victory or defeat.
Thanks for you input, and lets try to keep things positive
Is third time in a row a new record? Closed section is going to look pretty funny with 3 threads having the exactly same title
Mass Raven is a really gimmicky strategy, not something to actually practice for, I sometimes do it in teamgames for fun but it's not really a legit strategy against any Zerg that can use fungal.
Haters gonna hate, I mean it's not a reliable build, but some people might not enjoy that, they enjoy the quirky stuff the game has to offer. As long as there is detail in your guide, I see no reason for it to not be posted.
I think this belongs on the bnet forums where the standards for builds are a bit.. lower.
Generally, well received builds on these forums are ones that can work up to pro level, not just diamond league. People here come to seriously improve (a lot of aspiring master players trying to get GM) and not just "have fun" with builds that have never been tested above diamond MMR.
threads like these are why pro's like Idra/ Artosis make fun of the TL strategy forum. They just don't belong here..
As you post a guide I'd expect some reliable refined build. Your build is about having fun so why not make a thread for every gimmick mothership hidden cloack expo build (, not sure what you'd mean by mainstream but that's not important). Glhf with the build, sure fun style to play especially when opponents will go wtfisgoingon!?
I saw someone do this but without viking, he built turrets and PF everywhere on map and threw autoturrets all over the map. Sure fun to try in koth or against friend.
On April 14 2012 09:21 DKR wrote: Haters gonna hate, I mean it's not a reliable build, but some people might not enjoy that, they enjoy the quirky stuff the game has to offer. As long as there is detail in your guide, I see no reason for it to not be posted.
Thanks, and you're right - it's not the be-all-end-all of builds. It's for fun! It does work though, especially Diamond and below. It's entertaining and something different from standard play.
This build is awsome! I can not wait to try this out. Mass Raven is probably the most fun way to play the game - the problem is how do you mass them without dying before you get a critical mass. Opening like this may solve that problem since you seem quite safe early and midgame. Still I would like to see how this build deals with mass infestors. Mixing in banshees is probably a must in order to kill the infestors before they can chain-fungal your Ravens.
Who cares it it works at pro level? If you wish to play like pros go copy pros. This way of playing seems much more fun than the conventional builds.
Your reapers will be out faster. Here's an example of the opening, it's my TvT opening and surprisingly works well against Z for what you're trying to accomplish.
I don't know why you delay gas, but if you just cut an scv early you can get gas earlier, and have a better, more streamline economy and still achieve the same goals, if not faster.
As I wrote last time you posted this godawful idea of an opening: ********* Watched the first video, while shaking my head and feeling shameful on behalf of both players. I´d like to see a video showing the actual ladder search, to prove you´re playing against master ranked players and not some custom games against low leaguers or friends. There were so many things (on both sides) that really made me question if both of you are even above diamond. This seems more like a gold/platinum play for me to be honest. Or maybe at very best low diamond opponent playing random and not very familiar with zerg.
The reason of this is that the zerg goes for mutas, and his muta timing is 3 minute late and when he finally gets them out, he keeps suiciding them to turrets where you had plenty of holes in your main he could have abused. He knew you made that planetary at behind the rocks and should have felt comfortable just taking 3rd and 4th since you even had a bloody planetary at your ramp and no offensive capabilities. Similary your own play is really lacking, floating 2k gas for 5 minutes isn´t a good opening even if you´re intentionally saving up. Anyways talking anymore of this would give me a severe headache. Your idea is cute, but its horribly executed and your opponents are even worse. ******
watched the 2nd video as well, another clueless zerg - also going for mutas and also being extremely late and ineffective with them. Both videos show zergs that drones too little, expands too late, and have late timings and bad replies for your mass raven.
Where as many others just are saying "fast muta wreck you" and "infestors wreck you" - the truth is that zerg should have taken 4-5 bases around 12 minute with 80-90 drones and sick creep spread - then infestor hydra along with some spores would pretty much shut you down while teching for ultras. Hydras on creep are extremely good vs ravens/vikings and are more easy to spread than lings, mutas and corrupters. Ultras lategame will laugh at planetaries and autoturrets and even seeker missiles wont do much, as the splash wont hit more than max 2 ultras at a time.
PS when people say early mutas, they don´t mean 13-14 minute mutas like in your videos. Standard is 10.30 to 11.30, and in your first video your first turrets finishes 11.50.
The fact that u won games against players who went infestor and is a clear indicator for your build being awesome.
srsly, you take a random opening and transition it into a unit comp consisting of 1 unit. From now on i say: go for 3 gate agression into mass voidray vs terran. Because its fun. I even won against terrans going marines with it, so it works.
What I don't understand is why you would go for Marauders and Reapers when your tech path is so gas-intensive. Why not the normal 1rax expo into reactored Hellions? You can take all 4 gas and save it up while making gas-free Marines and Hellions. You only need gas for Stim/Combat and upgrades...all the units cost no gas.
On April 14 2012 09:49 FlyingTurtle wrote: What I don't understand is why you would go for Marauders and Reapers when your tech path is so gas-intensive. Why not the normal 1rax expo into reactored Hellions? You can take all 4 gas and save it up while making gas-free Marines and Hellions. You only need gas for Stim/Combat and upgrades...all the units cost no gas.
because its more fun. there doesnt have to be a sense in the build, thats the joke about those posts. sry for being a bit offensive, but i could as well post replays where i crush low masters players with stalker drops all over the place into carriers. not that it would make any sense or be worth a strategy thread.
On April 14 2012 08:54 Drolla wrote: The fact that you are using Vikings as anti air means that mutas will just overrun you.
There is a reason why builds like this are not done at a pro level and it is because they are so easily exploitable.
The Ravens provide PDD as well as Seeker Missile, so it's actually no problem
Ravens are not reliable anti-air, hence why pros don't use them. PDD are stationary and seeker missiles can be easily out micro'd.
Not true at all. Ravens are insanely good anti air and a major investment. The reason pros don't go them is because it's insanely costly transition, leaves you open to timings during the transition, and creates a window as well where you can't pressure Zerg and thus run the possibility of his econ going out of control.
They are insanely good anti air. I use them myself, just supplemental however, not as a core army component. I'm not necessarily endorsing the build, just pointing out that you're using faulty reasons.
Have you tried going hellion instead of reaper in the opening at all? They serve similar purposes in the terran army and force similar responses from the zerg, while not costing gas or using barracks production time. You don't seem to be using your factory much in the build anyway, if you are going to wall your nat with a PF, tanks aren't as much of a necessity. If you are using medivacs which can drop hellions on high ground, then reapers aren't really any better than hellions. I personally like reapers as a concept, they're a cool unit, but hellions seem like they would accomplish the same purpose in your build more efficiently, and leave you much more gas for your air transition.
On April 14 2012 09:49 FlyingTurtle wrote: What I don't understand is why you would go for Marauders and Reapers when your tech path is so gas-intensive. Why not the normal 1rax expo into reactored Hellions? You can take all 4 gas and save it up while making gas-free Marines and Hellions. You only need gas for Stim/Combat and upgrades...all the units cost no gas.
On April 14 2012 10:00 Fyrewolf wrote: Have you tried going hellion instead of reaper in the opening at all? They serve similar purposes in the terran army and force similar responses from the zerg, while not costing gas or using barracks production time. You don't seem to be using your factory much in the build anyway, if you are going to wall your nat with a PF, tanks aren't as much of a necessity. If you are using medivacs which can drop hellions on high ground, then reapers aren't really any better than hellions. I personally like reapers as a concept, they're a cool unit, but hellions seem like they would accomplish the same purpose in your build more efficiently, and leave you much more gas for your air transition.
That's a good question, I find the composition and timing is suprising for a lot of zerg and they don't deal with it well; I have won games outright with the opening many times.Reapers are awesome vs light (ie: zerglings) and buildings with around 16dps, and Marauders soak damage well and are good vs queens and buildings. Coupled with the Medivac and good micro, this makes for a pretty potent combination. That being said, there is a good elevator opening of 2 hellions and 8 marines that I have seen pro's use, and I've been thinking about trying it.
Why don't you use the reapers to harass at all (first vod) before you get your medivac out? You could at the very least force more units instead of drones earlier on, which matters a lot more.
On April 14 2012 09:27 iAmJeffReY wrote: Again, how would you stop ling infestor fast upgrades for a 2/2 bust?
Or, how would you stop an econ bane bust?
Or, how would you stop a roach bane bust?
My three questions.
I don't really have too many problems with busts at the natural (as it is heavily walled with siege tanks and bunkers behind, but sometimes at the third if I haven't built up effective defense. If my third goes down usually it's at a fairly large loss to zerg and I try to quickly reestablish the third. PF's with upgrades (5 armor) are pretty beefy especially if you build supply depots/CC's around it
On April 14 2012 09:35 iAmJeffReY wrote: Your reapers will be out faster. Here's an example of the opening, it's my TvT opening and surprisingly works well against Z for what you're trying to accomplish.
I don't know why you delay gas, but if you just cut an scv early you can get gas earlier, and have a better, more streamline economy and still achieve the same goals, if not faster.
That build order is an interesting idea, and I will definitely take a look at it. Cheers
On April 14 2012 10:39 Najda wrote: Why don't you use the reapers to harass at all (first vod) before you get your medivac out? You could at the very least force more units instead of drones earlier on, which matters a lot more.
That's a great point. I definitely harass more lately, and should have more so in those games; it would also be beneficial for scouting purposes.
This guy took the time to share his ideas with the community and he gets bashed. Who cares if Idra laughs at the strategy section! TeamLiquid is a sc2 community. If it's a community, then everyone should be able to contribute. Please remember that only a small amount of people on players are in masters or above! (Isn't masters the top 10% and Gm the top 5%?)
I'm not in masters and don't consider myself as a theorycrafter so the next time I play a monobattle or team matches, I will try this out :D
I'm curious, does everyone care about ranks? "you are in masters.... your skill level is gold/plat..." To me, a masters player will enjoy the game as much as a silver player... Don't we all make probes, structures, army and then kill each other? If you make mistakes, you lose. If your opponent makes mistakes, you win. As you get higher ranks, the skill level rises but deep down, the cycle repeats itself over and over. It's not easy to write a detailed guide so at the very least, applaud him for giving an effort and not giving up.
The viability of his build doesnt necessarily matter. This isnt some elitist club for Master's players so all the builds don't have to be tailored to you. This guy put time into his build and worked hard, so stop shitting on him.
It depends what you are looking for when you are looking at a guide and deciding whether it may "help" you or not.
Just saying, Rainbow does mass raven and/or air occasionally at high masters on KR, and it works. So, yeah. And yes he defends early mutas with just ravens.
On April 14 2012 09:24 AegiS_ wrote: I think this belongs on the bnet forums where the standards for builds are a bit.. lower.
Generally, well received builds on these forums are ones that can work up to pro level, not just diamond league. People here come to seriously improve (a lot of aspiring master players trying to get GM) and not just "have fun" with builds that have never been tested above diamond MMR.
threads like these are why pro's like Idra/ Artosis make fun of the TL strategy forum. They just don't belong here..
What? A number but not all people here come to seriously improve. If you're one of them, then fine, but criticizing the OP for posting such a guide on TL just cus it didn't suit your tastes? Unnecessary. Some people like to try new things and have fun. Hey, if a player doesn't know how to defend against a random kind of build/strategy like this, why not abuse that? (Like on ladder). If they don't know how to defend it, it's their loss. Maybe they should learn how so that if, for some chance, it is used in a tournament setting, they won't lose stupidly.
On April 14 2012 10:47 CommanchyWattkins wrote: comments are so negative
This guy took the time to share his ideas with the community and he gets bashed. Who cares if Idra laughs at the strategy section! TeamLiquid is a sc2 community. If it's a community, then everyone should be able to contribute. Please remember that only a small amount of people on players are in masters or above! (Isn't masters the top 10% and Gm the top 5%?)
I'm not in masters and don't consider myself as a theorycrafter so the next time I play a monobattle or team matches, I will try this out :D
I'm curious, does everyone care about ranks? "you are in masters.... your skill level is gold/plat..." To me, a masters player will enjoy the game as much as a silver player... Don't we all make probes, structures, army and then kill each other? If you make mistakes, you lose. If your opponent makes mistakes, you win. As you get higher ranks, the skill level rises but deep down, the cycle repeats itself over and over. It's not easy to write a detailed guide so at the very least, applaud him for giving an effort and not giving up.
Well the reason why everyone is bashing him is because these builds dont work unless the opponent isnt that good. I guess people frown upon spreading "really bad builds" that just makes the terran race look more gimicky and pathetic.
I wasn't trying to be negative or elitist, I just feel the best type of guides for this forum should be ones that work til pro level or are designed around pro builds. Why? Because they are 10x more refined than stuff like this, thus a low league player can practice said tested-build and become a better player.
I can make a build that is "cool" or "fun" like mass carrier and then make youtube videos against zergs that float 4k minerals pre-200/200 to give it credit, but what's the point? Anyway, my point is he should at least put some disclaimer for low league players and say this isn't designed to be a competitive build, but is moreso for fun and will not help you improve your SC2 skill.
I dono, maybe i'm biased because this guy makes posts on the bnet forums attention-whoring because he got master league (and demoted a few days later), or because his other thread got locked by a mod due to him calling people in TL strategy "dorks on a forum". OR because he just got banned for making a thread raging at the mods for closing a different thread of his.
Yes, he put some effort into the OP. But how much of it was to get attention and more views for his youtube channel, and how much of it was to legitimately create a good sc2 "strategy" that will help players out, is up to you to decide.
Quite frankly it doesn't matter if this guide won't work against GM level. The point of the guide is to open our eyes to see other ways of doing things, for you guys to bash the OP is being elitist is the epitiomite of snobbishness which shouldn't be allowed.
There are other strats and other ways to play the game, not always MMMVG vs protoss or marine/tank vs zerg. Seeing stuff like this is interesting and like Yoshi said, if Rainbow can beat other KR on his ladder, using a variation of mass raven, then it's definitely saying something.
Sorry if you guys turn up your nose at new strats, I for one fully support the OP. I do not care one iota that he is a little bit of a showboat(who cares?)
On April 14 2012 08:24 HammerSC2 wrote: Introduction
Hi guys, this is a really a fun build I've been doing for some time now; the core army composition is Raven Viking Banshee - in that order. The opening (reaper/marauder/medivac) is a strong, unique one that is really effective with good micro. With a quick third, and solid defense, the build sets the stage for an often confusing and effective mid-game versus zerg opponents.
Please let me know if you have any questions and CONSTRUCTIVE feedback - I will not be responding to otherwise negative responses that are not beneficial to the thread. This build may not work at the highest levels, but I am sharing it for MAINSTREAM players I have had success with it at a Diamond/Masters level. It's really fun to pull off and to watch! Cheers.
Build Order
10 Supply Depot 12 Barracks 14 Barracks 15 Orbital Command 15 Refinery x 2 16 Marine 16 Supply Depot 18 Tech Lab x 2 20 Reaper x 2 23 Command Center ---> Delay 1 SCV 23 Factory 24 Reaper x 2 28 Marauder x 2 30 Starport 33 Orbital Command 33 Reaper x 2 36 Medivac ---> Move OC to natural 39 Command Center
Now...
o Move barracks to make a wall at natural o Pull 8 SCV's to natural and build 2 x refineries, ebay (wall), bunker (behind), supply depot o Push out with your 8 minute timing attack force o Put factory and starport on tech labs o Start making tanks (5/6 + siege tech), marines, 2 x bunkers, turrets as minerals allow o Move 3rd CC to appropriate base, quickly make into PF and put down turrets o Make sure all bases have 4-6 missile turrets - more if you suspect heavy muta play o Research Hi-Sec Autotracking and Building Armor from the ebay o Lay down 5 starports as money allows, and begin Corvid Reactor research o 5 starports should have a tech lab, 1 core reactor o Produce non-stop ravens, vikings, banshee's (rough ratio 4:2:1) o Research Durable Materials and Seeker Missile o Based on what you scout and tech switches produce units accordingly (ie: air based more vikings, heavy lings/ground more banshees) o Once minerals allow build additional CC's and 6-10 barracks
Analysis - Early Game
The build does a few things early on; zerg typically will produce lings/spines in order to counter "2 rax" aggression that they scout. Then, on seeing reapers, zerg will often build more lings/spines to counter the harass, especially if you kill early lings with your first 2 reapers. This helps reduce early zerg economy. If the zerg player has a large amount of lings, to the point that it is restricting your ability to use reapers for map control, be cautious with the reapers and keep them close or in your natural until you push out (you've already done "damage" as he has less workers due to the lings).
One aspect of the build I like is the ability to counter early bust aggression without having to overly react. The reason why I do 2 reaper, 2 reaper, 2 marauder, 2 reaper (in that order) is to have some marauders available to counter early roach pressure or bain busts. That coupled with creative walling at the main, and then natural should help a lot of players with early game aggression.
During the 8 minute timing attack try to skirt edges as much as possible. Use mineral/extractor gaps to limit the surface area of the army to lings and be careful to not let the medivac be focused by queens. You can also use the vision of the medivac to micro the units up/down cliffs. If there are more than 3 or so roaches, do what damage you can and leave. If there are is an overwhelming amount of lings, same thing applies. Often if I don't do damage, I go to the expected third expansion to deny it, and keep them "pinned" as I establish my own third.
On April 14 2012 15:38 D_K_night wrote: Quite frankly it doesn't matter if this guide won't work against GM level. The point of the guide is to open our eyes to see other ways of doing things, for you guys to bash the OP is being elitist is the epitiomite of snobbishness which shouldn't be allowed.
There are other strats and other ways to play the game, not always MMMVG vs protoss or marine/tank vs zerg. Seeing stuff like this is interesting and like Yoshi said, if Rainbow can beat other KR on his ladder, using a variation of mass raven, then it's definitely saying something.
Sorry if you guys turn up your nose at new strats, I for one fully support the OP. I do not care one iota that he is a little bit of a showboat(who cares?)
AGREE!!! in all points!!!
Nice job, Mr. HammerSc2...your TvP works greate for me....very big thnks for sharing this with us!
Dont care about haters, most of them never do something for the community.
who cares if BO works in Master or GM....they represent only 3 % of the SC2 community...
On April 14 2012 15:38 D_K_night wrote: Quite frankly it doesn't matter if this guide won't work against GM level. The point of the guide is to open our eyes to see other ways of doing things, for you guys to bash the OP is being elitist is the epitiomite of snobbishness which shouldn't be allowed.
There are other strats and other ways to play the game, not always MMMVG vs protoss or marine/tank vs zerg. Seeing stuff like this is interesting and like Yoshi said, if Rainbow can beat other KR on his ladder, using a variation of mass raven, then it's definitely saying something.
Sorry if you guys turn up your nose at new strats, I for one fully support the OP. I do not care one iota that he is a little bit of a showboat(who cares?)
the point of the guide is to open our eyes? we all knew that mass raven exists. is it good? no. can it work 1/10 games if a player with SC:BW mechanics does it (rainbow) SURE!
but MOST of the time, you are relying on your opponent to be bad with strats like this. do you want the TL strategy forum to be known for it's guides that only work if your opponent is bad? I surely don't. That's what the bnet forums are for.
and LMAO at the guy with 1 post above me. Hammer gets banned. Then suddenly a wild 1-post-user appears to defend himself in the thread! I wonder who it is!!
On April 14 2012 15:38 D_K_night wrote: Quite frankly it doesn't matter if this guide won't work against GM level. The point of the guide is to open our eyes to see other ways of doing things, for you guys to bash the OP is being elitist is the epitiomite of snobbishness which shouldn't be allowed.
There are other strats and other ways to play the game, not always MMMVG vs protoss or marine/tank vs zerg. Seeing stuff like this is interesting and like Yoshi said, if Rainbow can beat other KR on his ladder, using a variation of mass raven, then it's definitely saying something.
Sorry if you guys turn up your nose at new strats, I for one fully support the OP. I do not care one iota that he is a little bit of a showboat(who cares?)
the point of the guide is to open our eyes? we all knew that mass raven exists. is it good? no. can it work 1/10 games if a player with SC:BW mechanics does it (rainbow) SURE!
but MOST of the time, you are relying on your opponent to be bad with strats like this. do you want the TL strategy forum to be known for it's guides that only work if your opponent is bad? I surely don't. That's what the bnet forums are for.
and LMAO at the guy with 1 post above me. Hammer gets banned. Then suddenly a wild 1-post-user appears to defend himself in the thread! I wonder who it is!!
Then again, it all comes down to how many games you win. Are you saying that if people don't know how to defend vs something, you should not abuse that? Who are you to judge what people spend their time on? I play mech cus even if it is "harder", I am successful with it, and part of that has to do with players being much more used to playing vs bio.
Anyway, my point is he should at least put some disclaimer for low league players and say this isn't designed to be a competitive build, but is moreso for fun and will not help you improve your SC2 skill.
I thought this was pretty clear from the OP and his replies o.o
On April 14 2012 11:14 Inquisitor1323 wrote: The viability of his build doesnt necessarily matter. This isnt some elitist club for Master's players so all the builds don't have to be tailored to you. This guy put time into his build and worked hard, so stop shitting on him.
People are being critical so the level in the strategy section stays on par. If I as a master player am browsing this section I don't want to have to triple check for what level it is meant.
On April 14 2012 18:38 Baseic wrote: People are being critical so the level in the strategy section stays on par. If I as a master player am browsing this section I don't want to have to triple check for what level it is meant.
In many ways it goes the other way around as well. If I as a plat level browse this section I want to find some strategies that work at my level and does not require Master level mechanics to pull off.
On April 14 2012 09:27 iAmJeffReY wrote: Again, how would you stop ling infestor fast upgrades for a 2/2 bust?
Or, how would you stop an econ bane bust?
Or, how would you stop a roach bane bust?
My three questions.
I don't really have too many problems with busts at the natural (as it is heavily walled with siege tanks and bunkers behind, but sometimes at the third if I haven't built up effective defense. If my third goes down usually it's at a fairly large loss to zerg and I try to quickly reestablish the third. PF's with upgrades (5 armor) are pretty beefy especially if you build supply depots/CC's around it
On April 14 2012 09:35 iAmJeffReY wrote: Your reapers will be out faster. Here's an example of the opening, it's my TvT opening and surprisingly works well against Z for what you're trying to accomplish.
I don't know why you delay gas, but if you just cut an scv early you can get gas earlier, and have a better, more streamline economy and still achieve the same goals, if not faster.
That build order is an interesting idea, and I will definitely take a look at it. Cheers
Going RR - RR - MM - RR you will not have tanks + siege out in time to defend a econ bane bust (~7-8 min) or a roach bane bust (~8-10min)
On April 14 2012 08:54 Drolla wrote: The fact that you are using Vikings as anti air means that mutas will just overrun you.
There is a reason why builds like this are not done at a pro level and it is because they are so easily exploitable.
Why bother to respond if you dont bother reading the OP? It clearly states in the 2nd paragraph that it probably wont work at higher levels, and absolutely nowhere does it say "hey pro's look here - its a build that will work at your level!"
Seems like a fun build to try at MY level (silver league).
Keep up the good work Hammer, I really enjoy your builds and the nice instruction videos you apparently put a lot of effort into (they are NEVER included in posts that claim to work at higher levels).
On April 14 2012 08:54 Drolla wrote: The fact that you are using Vikings as anti air means that mutas will just overrun you.
There is a reason why builds like this are not done at a pro level and it is because they are so easily exploitable.
Why bother to respond if you dont bother reading the OP? It clearly states in the 2nd paragraph that it probably wont work at higher levels, and absolutely nowhere does it say "hey pro's look here - its a build that will work at your level!"
Seems like a fun build to try at MY level (silver league).
Keep up the good work Hammer, I really enjoy your builds and the nice instruction videos you apparently put a lot of effort into (they are NEVER included in posts that claim to work at higher levels).
That's the thing. Mass air/raven isn't very friendly. One chain fungal and your lowapm non spread units all die. It takes APM to play auto turrets, PDD, cast out seeker missles and not lose all your ravens in the process. Which, at your level, you don't have. If you have any want to improve, hammer's builds both TvP and TvZ are garbage and will not do anything but get you free fluke wins against noobs on ladder. You will reach a point where they don't work, and will be unprepared to go back and play any other style because all you did were 1a cheeses.
If you want to get to mass ravens, do a nice FE -> siege expand -> 3rd CC and just bunker + tank + marine on 3 base to get 6 gas, then go into 3 port, as 5 ports is just stupid. You won't be able to support 5 ports on 2 bases, along with marines, and tanks..
If you want to get to mass ravens, search avilo's late game tvz raven transition. Don't use hammer's garbage builds. The guy got banned for trying to spam the forum with his shitty guides.
On April 14 2012 15:38 D_K_night wrote: Quite frankly it doesn't matter if this guide won't work against GM level. The point of the guide is to open our eyes to see other ways of doing things, for you guys to bash the OP is being elitist is the epitiomite of snobbishness which shouldn't be allowed.
There are other strats and other ways to play the game, not always MMMVG vs protoss or marine/tank vs zerg. Seeing stuff like this is interesting and like Yoshi said, if Rainbow can beat other KR on his ladder, using a variation of mass raven, then it's definitely saying something.
Sorry if you guys turn up your nose at new strats, I for one fully support the OP. I do not care one iota that he is a little bit of a showboat(who cares?)
AGREE!!! in all points!!!
Nice job, Mr. HammerSc2...your TvP works greate for me....very big thnks for sharing this with us!
Dont care about haters, most of them never do something for the community.
who cares if BO works in Master or GM....they represent only 3 % of the SC2 community...
tnks again for posting your BO, ill try it.
Thank you sir. Much appreciated! I'm glad to hear your having some fun with the builds. Let me know if you ever have any questions hammer#218.
On April 14 2012 16:26 MashuOni wrote: Have you include banshees in your unit composition?
I def include banshees in the composition now. If you look at the notes you will see that is mentioned, and the video's are earlier renditions of the build. Banshee's are pretty key if the opponent is running a good ground game (lings), and also for helping to counter infestor play.
Again with the shameless bumping. Banshees do not 'counter' Infestors. Infestors are only weak to Banshees if the Zerg is significantly less skilled than you. In fact, Infestors annihilate everything about this build.
Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor, the most standard of late game compositions, while be out by the time you have any decent number of ravens. Corruptors+Fungal are pretty good against Raven/Banshee I hear.
This was definitely a "WTF am I playing against" build. It seems like infestors can be strong against this, but can be mitigated by splitting the air force some to avoid huge fungals. Feels like kind of a meta-game build in that it throws people off as one of the strong points, but we'll see if I get rematched against you.
PS. Sorry for the bit of BM (not leaving) I was on a bit of a losing streak. Also there actually was pizza.
On April 17 2012 03:04 crocodile wrote: Again with the shameless bumping. Banshees do not 'counter' Infestors. Infestors are only weak to Banshees if the Zerg is significantly less skilled than you. In fact, Infestors annihilate everything about this build.
Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor, the most standard of late game compositions, while be out by the time you have any decent number of ravens. Corruptors+Fungal are pretty good against Raven/Banshee I hear.
I haven't responded to many of the posts, that's okay if I do isn't it? Lol you're hilarious.
A curious question, do you use a mass raven build, do you have experience implementing play with them? I do.. and Banshees absolutely help to mitigate Infestors with my build. You give very strong opinions and I suspect you have limited experience using mass ravens.
On April 17 2012 03:05 SirPsychoMantis wrote: This was definitely a "WTF am I playing against" build. It seems like infestors can be strong against this, but can be mitigated by splitting the air force some to avoid huge fungals. Feels like kind of a meta-game build in that it throws people off as one of the strong points, but we'll see if I get rematched against you.
PS. Sorry for the bit of BM (not leaving) I was on a bit of a losing streak. Also there actually was pizza.
Haha quite alright! I remember our game.. it does seem suspicious though that your units were still being moved even after you "left the room" Part of what makes the build successful on the ladder is as you mentioned, throwing opponents off as its not even close to standard play. Thanks for being a good sport, and for your feedback!
what do you do if your opponents dont bank 5k minerals and use it for spores spines etc?
and what do you do if they dont let you get your ninja expansion? you cant move out with 2 base raven/vikings
1 more thing: when you make videos and refer to unitslost/ressorcenlost: you should consider that you mostly only use gas. so most of your ressorcen are in turrets and stuff that actually do nothing. if it would be calculated the right way it would add all the ressorces you spend on turrets and extra rax and pf you dont even really use. they are there so your opponent doesnt hit you hard. but if he doesnt even try to kill you you just loose like 10k ressorcec only to turrets and pfs and rax which dont do anything
On April 17 2012 03:04 crocodile wrote: Again with the shameless bumping. Banshees do not 'counter' Infestors. Infestors are only weak to Banshees if the Zerg is significantly less skilled than you. In fact, Infestors annihilate everything about this build.
Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor, the most standard of late game compositions, while be out by the time you have any decent number of ravens. Corruptors+Fungal are pretty good against Raven/Banshee I hear.
I haven't responded to many of the posts, that's okay if I do isn't it? Lol you're hilarious.
A curious question, do you use a mass raven build, do you have experience implementing play with them? I do.. and Banshees absolutely help to mitigate Infestors with my build. You give very strong opinions and I suspect you have limited experience using mass ravens.
why the passive aggressiveness? He brings up a pretty good point, infestors seem pretty strong vs. this, and banshees would likely only work if the zerg isn't being active, or leaves his infestors lying around. Just saying 'you have limited experience', therefore your opinion is null doesn't really help discussion right? Reading this thread, I'd have liked to see intelligent responses to intelligent questions.
If banshees work, how do they work? If banshees don't work vs infestor play, isn't that a weakness people should be made aware of and be able to discuss? Saying that banshees counter infestors is a pretty radical claim by itself.
On April 17 2012 03:04 crocodile wrote: Again with the shameless bumping. Banshees do not 'counter' Infestors. Infestors are only weak to Banshees if the Zerg is significantly less skilled than you. In fact, Infestors annihilate everything about this build.
Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor, the most standard of late game compositions, while be out by the time you have any decent number of ravens. Corruptors+Fungal are pretty good against Raven/Banshee I hear.
I haven't responded to many of the posts, that's okay if I do isn't it? Lol you're hilarious.
A curious question, do you use a mass raven build, do you have experience implementing play with them? I do.. and Banshees absolutely help to mitigate Infestors with my build. You give very strong opinions and I suspect you have limited experience using mass ravens.
How do banshees help mitigate infestors?
Infestors counter both banshees and ravens because both units are used as "harass" type of units, meaning you're kiting them back and forth on your attacks. 1 fungal ruins both.
*and just for the record I'm a high diamond player(600 pt) and I've tried using a mass raven build. As many others have pointed out your build is terrible and makes little to no sense.
On April 14 2012 09:21 DKR wrote: Haters gonna hate, I mean it's not a reliable build, but some people might not enjoy that, they enjoy the quirky stuff the game has to offer. As long as there is detail in your guide, I see no reason for it to not be posted.
And potatoes gonna potate.
IMO (and others as well) strategy should be reserved for "reliable" builds as well as discussion of those trusty strategies. This seems like one guy's weird build that has some big holes, which others have pointed out.
IMO, this doesn't belong in Strategy. OP, make a blog and post it there.
On April 17 2012 03:04 crocodile wrote: Again with the shameless bumping. Banshees do not 'counter' Infestors. Infestors are only weak to Banshees if the Zerg is significantly less skilled than you. In fact, Infestors annihilate everything about this build.
Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor, the most standard of late game compositions, while be out by the time you have any decent number of ravens. Corruptors+Fungal are pretty good against Raven/Banshee I hear.
I haven't responded to many of the posts, that's okay if I do isn't it? Lol you're hilarious.
A curious question, do you use a mass raven build, do you have experience implementing play with them? I do.. and Banshees absolutely help to mitigate Infestors with my build. You give very strong opinions and I suspect you have limited experience using mass ravens.
why the passive aggressiveness? He brings up a pretty good point, infestors seem pretty strong vs. this, and banshees would likely only work if the zerg isn't being active, or leaves his infestors lying around. Just saying 'you have limited experience', therefore your opinion is null doesn't really help discussion right? Reading this thread, I'd have liked to see intelligent responses to intelligent questions.
If banshees work, how do they work? If banshees don't work vs infestor play, isn't that a weakness people should be made aware of and be able to discuss? Saying that banshees counter infestors is a pretty radical claim by itself.
Said poster is consistently rude on threads; saying something nonconstructive and obnoxious and then continuing to ask pertinent questions to make it a relevant post. Moving along..
I have had good success using banshee's in the composition to help mete infestor play (not hard countering them or anything). Infestors are a great unit to be sure, and with good control can be hard to deal with. This build requires you to be cautious and use effective scans regularly. Having banshees on the field forces the opponent to maintain good control of the infestors and, coupled with ravens laying down turrets and proper control (not clumping), works well in many situations.
Great build if you're interested in having fun but not winning. Have you every tried the "Mass Landed Vikings with +3 Armor" strat. I've beaten some zergs with it before. I've also lost a lot too.
On April 17 2012 04:48 FinalForm wrote: Great build if you're interested in having fun but not winning. Have you every tried the "Mass Landed Vikings with +3 Armor" strat. I've beaten some zergs with it before. I've also lost a lot too.
I'm not sure what to tell you.. I win more than I lose with the build. In my mind that makes it viable.
The issue here is all you do is ignore anyone with good questions, and statements and just pass them off.
Much like my how do you stop a bane, or roach bane bust. In the video I watched, it's 10 minutes, well past either of these busts and you have 47 supply..
2 marauders pop at 7:20. A roach attack off a hatch first will hit before that, as they cross the map about the time 2-4 hellions are out, before 6:30.
Oh, and you should've won with the reaper/marauder attack if you had any idea of micro. Again, 10 minutes, 38 supply.
On April 17 2012 05:05 chadissilent wrote: I can't see how this build holds a roach ling bling all-in between 8 and 10 minutes.
Asked again, I asked on page 1 and got told he does it with sim city, which is a joke because one roach bane bust and he's dead, there's no coming back.
The thing is it doesn't, it has been asked already and Hammer has been succesful at dodging the question.
Exactly, he dodges any real proof of holes, and only answers people who praise this 'build'
On April 17 2012 05:05 chadissilent wrote: I can't see how this build holds a roach ling bling all-in between 8 and 10 minutes.
The thing is it doesn't, it has been asked already and Hammer has been succesful at dodging the question.
Which is why I'm asking again. I'm genuinely curious, because if this build can solve that problem I'll start having some of my players work on variation of this build to use in a tournament.
On April 17 2012 03:04 crocodile wrote: Again with the shameless bumping. Banshees do not 'counter' Infestors. Infestors are only weak to Banshees if the Zerg is significantly less skilled than you. In fact, Infestors annihilate everything about this build.
Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor, the most standard of late game compositions, while be out by the time you have any decent number of ravens. Corruptors+Fungal are pretty good against Raven/Banshee I hear.
I haven't responded to many of the posts, that's okay if I do isn't it? Lol you're hilarious.
A curious question, do you use a mass raven build, do you have experience implementing play with them? I do.. and Banshees absolutely help to mitigate Infestors with my build. You give very strong opinions and I suspect you have limited experience using mass ravens.
why the passive aggressiveness? He brings up a pretty good point, infestors seem pretty strong vs. this, and banshees would likely only work if the zerg isn't being active, or leaves his infestors lying around. Just saying 'you have limited experience', therefore your opinion is null doesn't really help discussion right? Reading this thread, I'd have liked to see intelligent responses to intelligent questions.
If banshees work, how do they work? If banshees don't work vs infestor play, isn't that a weakness people should be made aware of and be able to discuss? Saying that banshees counter infestors is a pretty radical claim by itself.
Said poster is consistently rude on threads; saying something nonconstructive and obnoxious and then continuing to ask pertinent questions to make it a relevant post. Moving along..
I have had good success using banshee's in the composition to help mete infestor play (not hard countering them or anything). Infestors are a great unit to be sure, and with good control can be hard to deal with. This build requires you to be cautious and use effective scans regularly. Having banshees on the field forces the opponent to maintain good control of the infestors and, coupled with ravens laying down turrets and proper control (not clumping), works well in many situations.
Hammer, what are you trying to accomplish with these guides? It's clear at this point that you don't care about actually helping people to play sc2, or about improving your build in any way. People have been asking you relevant questions since page 1 of your guide and you've completely failed at addressing any issues with your build despite your insistence on bumping the guide whenever it falls off the front page of the strategy forum.
As for me being rude, is this coming from the guy who got BANNED for spam posting his absolutely useless guides and making insulting, dismissive posts when defending them? Or do you not remember calling people 'nerdtards' and insisting that anyone who disagreed with you is an angry loser who has no social life?
Also: Inb4 you make a response calling me a nerd, failing to address my original point about standard infestor play, and using lots of smiley faces
On April 17 2012 05:05 chadissilent wrote: I can't see how this build holds a roach ling bling all-in between 8 and 10 minutes.
This is sometimes difficult to hold depending on the timing - if it hits right as I'm transitioning into my natural for instance. Otherwise though, I put on pressure at my opponents main (with reaper/marine/marauder) to divide his attention, and usually have good walling. If I have to retreat into my natural I do so but typically already have siege tanks in production or on the field at this point.
On April 17 2012 05:05 chadissilent wrote: I can't see how this build holds a roach ling bling all-in between 8 and 10 minutes.
This is sometimes difficult to hold depending on the timing - if it hits right as I'm transitioning into my natural for instance. Otherwise though, I put on pressure at my opponents main (with reaper/marine/marauder) do divide his attention, and usually have good walling. If I have to retreat into my natural I do so but typically already have siege tanks in production or on the field at this point.
You need bunkers and 2-3 tanks to hold a well executed roach bane bust, that's assuming you have marines already. You have none of this. I don't think you've faced such a bust, is the issue.
Again, 10 min, past roach bane timing, you have just one tank started, no units at home, and under 50 supply. At 10 minutes.
On April 17 2012 05:05 chadissilent wrote: I can't see how this build holds a roach ling bling all-in between 8 and 10 minutes.
This is sometimes difficult to hold depending on the timing - if it hits right as I'm transitioning into my natural for instance. Otherwise though, I put on pressure at my opponents main (with reaper/marine/marauder) do divide his attention, and usually have good walling. If I have to retreat into my natural I do so but typically already have siege tanks in production or on the field at this point.
You need bunkers and 2-3 tanks to hold a well executed roach bane bust, that's assuming you have marines already. You have none of this. I don't think you've faced such a bust, is the issue.
Again, 10 min, past roach bane timing, you have just one tank started, no units at home, and under 50 supply. At 10 minutes.
You are certainly right on what you need to address a well executed roach-bane bust. When I push out to main, I build an ebay and land the 2 rax to make a formidable wall, and build at least one bunker behind as as begin tank production. I also start producing marines. Perhaps in the video's this happens later, but as I've stated those are earlier examples - and in time I've def learned what kills me through trial and error
On April 17 2012 05:05 chadissilent wrote: I can't see how this build holds a roach ling bling all-in between 8 and 10 minutes.
This is sometimes difficult to hold depending on the timing - if it hits right as I'm transitioning into my natural for instance. Otherwise though, I put on pressure at my opponents main (with reaper/marine/marauder) do divide his attention, and usually have good walling. If I have to retreat into my natural I do so but typically already have siege tanks in production or on the field at this point.
You need bunkers and 2-3 tanks to hold a well executed roach bane bust, that's assuming you have marines already. You have none of this. I don't think you've faced such a bust, is the issue.
Again, 10 min, past roach bane timing, you have just one tank started, no units at home, and under 50 supply. At 10 minutes.
You are certainly right on what you need to address a well executed roach-bane bust. When I push out to main, I build an ebay and land the 2 rax to make a formidable wall, and build at least one bunker behind as as begin tank production. I also start producing marines. Perhaps in the video's this happens later, but as I've stated those are earlier examples - and in time I've def learned what kills me through trial and error
A barracks wall won't hold 12 roaches and 12-18 banelings with ling rally. You will die every time if you rely on 1 bunker and a barracks wall.
On April 17 2012 05:05 chadissilent wrote: I can't see how this build holds a roach ling bling all-in between 8 and 10 minutes.
This is sometimes difficult to hold depending on the timing - if it hits right as I'm transitioning into my natural for instance. Otherwise though, I put on pressure at my opponents main (with reaper/marine/marauder) do divide his attention, and usually have good walling. If I have to retreat into my natural I do so but typically already have siege tanks in production or on the field at this point.
You need bunkers and 2-3 tanks to hold a well executed roach bane bust, that's assuming you have marines already. You have none of this. I don't think you've faced such a bust, is the issue.
Again, 10 min, past roach bane timing, you have just one tank started, no units at home, and under 50 supply. At 10 minutes.
You are certainly right on what you need to address a well executed roach-bane bust. When I push out to main, I build an ebay and land the 2 rax to make a formidable wall, and build at least one bunker behind as as begin tank production. I also start producing marines. Perhaps in the video's this happens later, but as I've stated those are earlier examples - and in time I've def learned what kills me through trial and error
A barracks wall won't hold 12 roaches and 12-18 banelings with ling rally. You will die every time if you rely on 1 bunker and a barracks wall.
Correct, that's why I make more bunkers. Also If I see early roaches and suspect strong early aggression I start producing banshees.
I guess it could be a great build at the lower levels when your opponents aren't able to read your build or have mastered any timings. I just don't see it working at the higher levels right now.
On April 17 2012 05:05 chadissilent wrote: I can't see how this build holds a roach ling bling all-in between 8 and 10 minutes.
This is sometimes difficult to hold depending on the timing - if it hits right as I'm transitioning into my natural for instance. Otherwise though, I put on pressure at my opponents main (with reaper/marine/marauder) do divide his attention, and usually have good walling. If I have to retreat into my natural I do so but typically already have siege tanks in production or on the field at this point.
You need bunkers and 2-3 tanks to hold a well executed roach bane bust, that's assuming you have marines already. You have none of this. I don't think you've faced such a bust, is the issue.
Again, 10 min, past roach bane timing, you have just one tank started, no units at home, and under 50 supply. At 10 minutes.
You are certainly right on what you need to address a well executed roach-bane bust. When I push out to main, I build an ebay and land the 2 rax to make a formidable wall, and build at least one bunker behind as as begin tank production. I also start producing marines. Perhaps in the video's this happens later, but as I've stated those are earlier examples - and in time I've def learned what kills me through trial and error
A barracks wall won't hold 12 roaches and 12-18 banelings with ling rally. You will die every time if you rely on 1 bunker and a barracks wall.
Correct, that's why I make more bunkers. Also If I see early roaches and suspect strong early aggression I start producing banshees.
bunkers are not enough against roach bane. It's been proven time and time again, it requires tanks, or just fucking sexy ass micro and repair + dodging banes etc.
Which means a unit count. Which is what you DO NOT HAVE at that timing. We're not saying the build is flawed, although I am, it just has an opening in defense you need to look out for if you want to keep lo---err doing it.
That's the point that this thread really exists to discuss, if anything. Do we want garbage builds like Hammer's on the TL strategy forum, because they appear to be fun and interesting for low level players, or do we think that the strategy forum should have higher standards than this?
On April 14 2012 08:54 Drolla wrote: The fact that you are using Vikings as anti air means that mutas will just overrun you.
There is a reason why builds like this are not done at a pro level and it is because they are so easily exploitable.
Why bother to respond if you dont bother reading the OP? It clearly states in the 2nd paragraph that it probably wont work at higher levels, and absolutely nowhere does it say "hey pro's look here - its a build that will work at your level!"
Seems like a fun build to try at MY level (silver league).
Keep up the good work Hammer, I really enjoy your builds and the nice instruction videos you apparently put a lot of effort into (they are NEVER included in posts that claim to work at higher levels).
Well if you want fun builds that work in lower leagues, I'd be happy to write up a guide for my 8 hatch 0/3 150 drone timing push...
It's still an awful guide regardless of it's viability in other leagues. ravens isn't the easiest thing considering they have so many spells and there's nothing in the guide about what spells to use when, when to attack, how to defend against ling infestor, mutaling bling, or any zerg composition for that matter. It says nothing about how to transition in the late game, nothing about how to beat broodlord infestor. There's nothing about army positioning, how to scout what zerg is doing, how to hold various all ins. There's basically nothing to this guide except a build order. I know the guide is under construction, but it's so unrefined that it's not really worth someone's time to use it.
I'd just like to add to the thread that Hammer is PMing me personal attacks for criticizing him in his thread, while still ignoring every valid point that has been made here.
On April 17 2012 06:23 crocodile wrote: I'd just like to add to the thread that Hammer is PMing me personal attacks for criticizing him in his thread, while still ignoring every valid point that has been made here.
What a joke.
I take it you missed his epic posts on bnet forums as well after he got 2-day banned here, title was something like TL forums = nazi germany :D
On April 17 2012 06:23 crocodile wrote: I'd just like to add to the thread that Hammer is PMing me personal attacks for criticizing him in his thread, while still ignoring every valid point that has been made here.
What a joke.
Actually was just wondering why you're so obsessed with trying to be so negative and troll threads. I've been responding to the reasonable, constructive and polite posters and I took the time to write a guide to a build that has worked well for me up to this point, I'm not sure what the problem is here.
If you don't like the build, say you're points and move along. You can give constructive feedback without being overly negative or having a rude demeanor. I will only be responding to comments by those who have legitimate questions or constructive feedback, and are not just trying to flame/troll threads because they're angry small people. Move along buds.
I have to admit that I lost to this build maybe 3 weeks ago? Honestly, the best defense of the viability of this build is simply that it's so rare to see people aren't prepared for it. When I was playing against it I crushed the initial poke with reapers, denied a third (which he built again later), saw the starports and prepared for mass banshee play, and generally had a good feeling about everything. Then I lost my flock of mutas to a couple HSMs and I just couldn't get air superiority back. I transitioned to infestors but it was tricky trying to get into position to fungal while he was dropping turrets everywhere. Eventually I baneling busted him and wiped out his base, but he just flew off and kept killing my bases all over the map.
It wasn't really my proudest moment, losing that game. I know I could have won the game early if I'd tried, but I'm just not used to trying to win in the early game against Terran. I held him back and figured I could just macro and protect myself from banshee play, but it didn't work.
So, yeah, despite losing to this build I can see the holes in it after going back over the replay. I think you can still win more games than you lose with it assuming you're below masters simply because it's unexpected.
I see problems with your build, all of which cover the spectrum of a game that would go into the later stages. Sorry for the wall of text, I tried to break it up to make it more bearable and these are just my personal thoughts about your build.
Early Game:
Early roach would shut down your push and set you far behind. The meta game for TvZ right now, at least in masters of NA, is favoring zergs to get early roaches to try to punish greedy hellion play or used preemptively for defense. A very ill prepared and greedy zerg would have problems with your push I admit but an early scout of a 2 rax opener usually leaves zergs more cautious about expanding/droning (being greedy) and defensive. Another note would be a quick muta build, like the one in your youtube video in the op. This type of opener makes you have absolutely no map awareness from the point your opponent has mutas to the point you move out and forces you to sink very large amounts of money in turrets as the few marines would be no match for a counter attack. No map presence, or even threat of map presence, leaves the zerg to do almost anything.
Mid Game:
Your follow up is basically turtle super, super hard until you get a mass amount of ravens. That is a kind of transition that relies on you doing MASSIVE amounts of early damage with your reaper push. I'm talking the amount of damage that should end a game but your opponent decides to stay in anyway. However my problem is the degree of turtling. You can not be aggressive at all in the mid game, period. You have almost no ground force, any extra cash is spend in defense and ravens in small numbers aren't very good, meaning you need to sit and wait until you get a massive amount of them before looking to threaten your opponent. Any zerg who saw you turtle THAT hard would just take every available base on the map and just keep trading until you are starved out or just sit and wait for you to push, eventually destroy your army with their superior economy and then starve you out. Again, no map presence and no way of being aggressive is not a good position to be in, regardless of the MU.
Late Game:
Finally the re-enforcement option is basically air as you are pretty much just left with starports, and pure air against Zerg is pretty bad unless, again, you have a huge advantage from earlier in the game. You also will have a very hard time getting more bases (on most maps past 3) as this build needs massive structural defense in order to protect a base and getting that defense can be made pretty much impossible by a zerg who doesn't have even a scouting overlord at every base he/she doesn't have. I mean you could try to sneak a base, like you did in your video, and hope they don't scout it but that's a very unreliable approach which only becomes more difficult the better the opponent you're playing.
Side Note:
If this build is meant for the lower leagues then disregard my criticisms as I can see it being fun and effective there. I'm just a masters terran so my view comes from if I were playing a masters zerg which if was the case I could not see this build being very successful. I do applaud you for coming here and posting a build you created yourself. I know it's not easy to have people dissect something you thought up so props for that.
The problem is that even in the lower leagues, it relies on you being significantly better than your opponent to pull this off. And it's completely not viable at Master league level.
On April 17 2012 08:55 Treva wrote: I see problems with your build, all of which cover the spectrum of a game that would go into the later stages. Sorry for the wall of text, I tried to break it up to make it more bearable and these are just my personal thoughts about your build.
Early Game:
Early roach would shut down your push and set you far behind. The meta game for TvZ right now, at least in masters of NA, is favoring zergs to get early roaches to try to punish greedy hellion play or used preemptively for defense. A very ill prepared and greedy zerg would have problems with your push I admit but an early scout of a 2 rax opener usually leaves zergs more cautious about expanding/droning (being greedy) and defensive. Another note would be a quick muta build, like the one in your youtube video in the op. This type of opener makes you have absolutely no map awareness from the point your opponent has mutas to the point you move out and forces you to sink very large amounts of money in turrets as the few marines would be no match for a counter attack. No map presence, or even threat of map presence, leaves the zerg to do almost anything.
Mid Game:
Your follow up is basically turtle super, super hard until you get a mass amount of ravens. That is a kind of transition that relies on you doing MASSIVE amounts of early damage with your reaper push. I'm talking the amount of damage that should end a game but your opponent decides to stay in anyway. However my problem is the degree of turtling. You can not be aggressive at all in the mid game, period. You have almost no ground force, any extra cash is spend in defense and ravens in small numbers aren't very good, meaning you need to sit and wait until you get a massive amount of them before looking to threaten your opponent. Any zerg who saw you turtle THAT hard would just take every available base on the map and just keep trading until you are starved out or just sit and wait for you to push, eventually destroy your army with their superior economy and then starve you out. Again, no map presence and no way of being aggressive is not a good position to be in, regardless of the MU.
Late Game:
Finally the re-enforcement option is basically air as you are pretty much just left with starports, and pure air against Zerg is pretty bad unless, again, you have a huge advantage from earlier in the game. You also will have a very hard time getting more bases (on most maps past 3) as this build needs massive structural defense in order to protect a base and getting that defense can be made pretty much impossible by a zerg who doesn't have even a scouting overlord at every base he/she doesn't have. I mean you could try to sneak a base, like you did in your video, and hope they don't scout it but that's a very unreliable approach which only becomes more difficult the better the opponent you're playing.
Side Note:
If this build is meant for the lower leagues then disregard my criticisms as I can see it being fun and effective there. I'm just a masters terran so my view comes from if I were playing a masters zerg which if was the case I could not see this build being very successful. I do applaud you for coming here and posting a build you created yourself. I know it's not easy to have people dissect something you thought up so props for that.
I appreciate constructive feedback You make some great points! There are a few things I have been considering that maybe you could comment on:
1) Producing 2-4 Banshee's following the 8 minute push; to have some mid-game pressure and force zerg to spend $ on defense and perhaps channel them towards muta play
2) While building several defensive siege tanks, research blue flame then build reactor on factory and pump helli's for better map control/harass and for securing expansions easier.
I will say though, I don't have too many problems with early game pressure. The threat of two rax typically reduces some early econ for my opponent, and when they see reapers on the field even more so. I typically push in with the first 2 reapers, scout as much as possible, kill workers and force more defense spending. Also if the reaper/marauder timing attack isn't an effective one, it doesn't mean you lose all the units and can often still drop (or threaten to) in order to pin and deny 3rd.
Just a thought, if this is for lower league players, diamond and under perhaps, won't they have a very hard time using ravens. I mean I have a tough time using just 5 ravens with my lategame army and I'm masters. It just doesn't seem very noob friendly becuase one fungal will kill all your ravens and lower league players can't split air units well.
On April 17 2012 09:29 Vanchen wrote: Just a thought, if this is for lower league players, diamond and under perhaps, won't they have a very hard time using ravens. I mean I have a tough time using just 5 ravens with my lategame army and I'm masters. It just doesn't seem very noob friendly becuase one fungal will kill all your ravens and lower league players can't split air units well.
Hmm you think platinum/diamond players can't handle some raven control? That being said that's a good point for some of the lowest leagues, but practice makes perfect, and any play/strategy/build improves with practice and better micro. Additionally, lower league opponents won't respond as well in terms of economy and composition so it could be that much easier.
You keep floating so many minerals, is there any way you can build some usefull stuff with the cash? Just building hellions and marines and attack moving them across the map is better than banking several thousand minerals while you're not even at 100 suply at the 19 minute mark. I think your opening is cool and creative, but I also think it could be a good idea to stop building reapers earlier, so you can focus your gas towards tanks and setting up a good infastructure. How zergs with infestors fail to win against this is beyond my grasp, but its cool that you innovate and try out new things even though they perhaps arn't viable at the top level. How many people are top level anyways? Interesting build, I'll be sure to try it out.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't it against the rules to post a very poorly thought out, unviable build with little evidence/sense to it? Shouldn't this have a [H] tag with the OP asking how to make this build work (in any sense) at a reasonably competitive level?
Isn't that what this forum is about?
Moreover, the OP isn't answering criticisms from the people trying to help him, doesn't that warrant a closure?
On topic- mass raven/viking/banshee (ie, sky terran) works only vs T in ultra-late-game or in weird games v mass toss air (say you were going mech, they went air, you could counter with this)
On April 17 2012 09:43 kyllinghest wrote: You keep floating so many minerals, is there any way you can build some usefull stuff with the cash? Just building hellions and marines and attack moving them across the map is better than banking several thousand minerals while you're not even at 100 suply at the 19 minute mark. I think your opening is cool and creative, but I also think it could be a good idea to stop building reapers earlier, so you can focus your gas towards tanks and setting up a good infastructure. How zergs with infestors fail to win against this is beyond my grasp, but its cool that you innovate and try out new things even though they perhaps arn't viable at the top level. How many people are top level anyways? Interesting build, I'll be sure to try it out.
In regards to the high mineral count I am now MUCH more pro-active in building more CC's and marines. I have DEFINITELY been thinking I need to start pumping helli's though as it would really help with map-control and reduce zergling numbers.
Hmm reapers are only 50 gas each, what are you thinkin.. like attack with 4reap/2maraud/med?
Thanks for your feeback, and I appreciate your positivity!
On April 17 2012 09:52 DYEAlabaster wrote: Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't it against the rules to post a very poorly thought out, unviable build with little evidence/sense to it? Shouldn't this have a [H] tag with the OP asking how to make this build work (in any sense) at a reasonably competitive level?
Isn't that what this forum is about?
Moreover, the OP isn't answering criticisms from the people trying to help him, doesn't that warrant a closure?
On topic- mass raven/viking/banshee (ie, sky terran) works only vs T in ultra-late-game or in weird games v mass toss air (say you were going mech, they went air, you could counter with this)
This exactly. And the OP will probably ignore your post or call you an angry nerd just for stating this obvious fact. I cannot believe this thread has not been closed, where are the mods??
On April 17 2012 09:52 DYEAlabaster wrote: Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't it against the rules to post a very poorly thought out, unviable build with little evidence/sense to it? Shouldn't this have a [H] tag with the OP asking how to make this build work (in any sense) at a reasonably competitive level?
Isn't that what this forum is about?
Moreover, the OP isn't answering criticisms from the people trying to help him, doesn't that warrant a closure?
On topic- mass raven/viking/banshee (ie, sky terran) works only vs T in ultra-late-game or in weird games v mass toss air (say you were going mech, they went air, you could counter with this)
Forgiven and you're wrong I've used this build for a long time on ladder, and refined it quite a bit. It IS viable as I win more than I lose, and I've beat MANY Masters level players with it.
I AM responding to constructive criticism, take a look at this page.. and the others. Lol.
On topic: I win regularly with the composition, so you're wrong again. That's a silly statement to say it only works vs T when I have evidence to the contrary in replays at reasonably high levels of play...
...that and the feedback on this thread from Zerg players that lost to the build.
@ crocodile Aren't you tired of being an angry little troll on this thread? You're the one that should be warned, and subsequently banned if you continue being an angry little person and not contributing anything of value to the discussion.
I'll keep explaining why this is a stupid thread until you address the point I made 3 fucking pages ago.
1. Post replays of you defending a Roach/Baneling bust, which this build cannot defend unless the Zerg fucks up majorly.
2. Post replays of you dealing with Ling/Infestor into either Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor or Ultra/Ling, both of which are completely standard unit compositions that should absolutely wreck any sort of Raven play. If the Zerg is playing even REMOTELY adequately and you still win, I will shut up.
3. Post BETTER replays of you against Muta play. The Zergs who went Muta in your VODs had such poor control I would honestly have guessed that they had a stroke while you were playing.
On April 17 2012 08:55 Treva wrote: I see problems with your build, all of which cover the spectrum of a game that would go into the later stages. Sorry for the wall of text, I tried to break it up to make it more bearable and these are just my personal thoughts about your build.
Early Game:
Early roach would shut down your push and set you far behind. The meta game for TvZ right now, at least in masters of NA, is favoring zergs to get early roaches to try to punish greedy hellion play or used preemptively for defense. A very ill prepared and greedy zerg would have problems with your push I admit but an early scout of a 2 rax opener usually leaves zergs more cautious about expanding/droning (being greedy) and defensive. Another note would be a quick muta build, like the one in your youtube video in the op. This type of opener makes you have absolutely no map awareness from the point your opponent has mutas to the point you move out and forces you to sink very large amounts of money in turrets as the few marines would be no match for a counter attack. No map presence, or even threat of map presence, leaves the zerg to do almost anything.
Mid Game:
Your follow up is basically turtle super, super hard until you get a mass amount of ravens. That is a kind of transition that relies on you doing MASSIVE amounts of early damage with your reaper push. I'm talking the amount of damage that should end a game but your opponent decides to stay in anyway. However my problem is the degree of turtling. You can not be aggressive at all in the mid game, period. You have almost no ground force, any extra cash is spend in defense and ravens in small numbers aren't very good, meaning you need to sit and wait until you get a massive amount of them before looking to threaten your opponent. Any zerg who saw you turtle THAT hard would just take every available base on the map and just keep trading until you are starved out or just sit and wait for you to push, eventually destroy your army with their superior economy and then starve you out. Again, no map presence and no way of being aggressive is not a good position to be in, regardless of the MU.
Late Game:
Finally the re-enforcement option is basically air as you are pretty much just left with starports, and pure air against Zerg is pretty bad unless, again, you have a huge advantage from earlier in the game. You also will have a very hard time getting more bases (on most maps past 3) as this build needs massive structural defense in order to protect a base and getting that defense can be made pretty much impossible by a zerg who doesn't have even a scouting overlord at every base he/she doesn't have. I mean you could try to sneak a base, like you did in your video, and hope they don't scout it but that's a very unreliable approach which only becomes more difficult the better the opponent you're playing.
Side Note:
If this build is meant for the lower leagues then disregard my criticisms as I can see it being fun and effective there. I'm just a masters terran so my view comes from if I were playing a masters zerg which if was the case I could not see this build being very successful. I do applaud you for coming here and posting a build you created yourself. I know it's not easy to have people dissect something you thought up so props for that.
I appreciate constructive feedback You make some great points! There are a few things I have been considering that maybe you could comment on:
1) Producing 2-4 Banshee's following the 8 minute push; to have some mid-game pressure and force zerg to spend $ on defense and perhaps channel them towards muta play
2) While building several defensive siege tanks, research blue flame then build reactor on factory and pump helli's for better map control/harass and for securing expansions easier.
I will say though, I don't have too many problems with early game pressure. The threat of two rax typically reduces some early econ for my opponent, and when they see reapers on the field even more so. I typically push in with the first 2 reapers, scout as much as possible, kill workers and force more defense spending. Also if the reaper/marauder timing attack isn't an effective one, it doesn't mean you lose all the units and can often still drop (or threaten to) in order to pin and deny 3rd.
Instead of banshees I would recommend just getting a few medis especially if you plan on going the blue flame route. Sending out little squads of hellions in the early part of the mid game and dropping them in bases can be helpful harass. The thing with hellions though with zerg is that as the game goes on, pretty much past the early portion of the mid game where creep spread may not be terribly good, is that hellions get less and less effective. I mean making banshees, while it can be good, to force mutas only makes your hellions much less useful. With hellions and drops you force a lot more defense (spines, in base units for defense) and it's a lot easier to drop and roam the map with hellions when mutas aren't present since once you get a good amount of them zerg needs either help from roaches or something like mutas.
Hellions will help you establish a little more map control near your base but mid-late game and onward they will essentially become useless for that, if you want to use them then you need to use them for drops or punish zergs who take bases away from their main and have little to no defense. However usually once you show that you will be consistently making hellions, zergs will prepare in advance pretty well with spines for potential run-bys.
Of course this all goes in the theory testing category, I would try it out a few games and just see what happens, how it feels. You do float a lot of minerals, which is the case with a lot of heavy gas builds, so you won't really be sacrificing much except 150 gas for BF upgrade. While I don't think this particular build and style will be supportive of hellions for map control and harass I can't say for sure since I haven't messed with it or thought about it too long. Best of luck.
On April 17 2012 10:24 FinalForm wrote: What league are you?
Bouncin between Masters and Diamond. I lose more games than I should as I try a lot non-conventional builds on ladder to feature them on my channel
Boy, you should see the games on his channel. I just took a few minutes to zip through them; wow. I know it's been said before, but he is facing TERRIBLE opponents. In one game the Zerg goes for straight Broodlords with absolutely no AA and just amoves them to Hammer's base. Another game, the Zerg suicides like 20 mutas into a fuckton of turrets. In another game, the Zerg goes for Broodlord/Corruptor with no Infestors! Absolutely no games demonstrating him playing vs Infestors in any significant numbers.
My point is, this build will only work against opponents who have so little knowledge of the metagame that they do not think to make Infestor/Corruptor/Broodlord even when left unharassed for basically the entire game. There's a reason there are no replays of him playing vs zergs who are not embarrassingly bad.
On a side note: Hammer's voice is quite annoying.
Furthermore, take note of the fact that Hammer is actively replying to people in the thread giving him praise and suggesting things to him, but he has not addressed my concerns with the build which I have listed at least 4 times, nor those of IamJeffrey, nor Aegis, nor anybody else who isn't sucking his dick, and uses way too many of these annoying smiley faces.
@ crocodile Sticks and stones bud. Grow up. I'm not making comments about the picture in your profile of some big time loser and a really ugly fat girl, because there is no need to make it personal right? And you go on my channel and go on crazy immature swearing rants... you've got a few screws loose my man. You're rude, abrasive and a troll and there's no need to respond to people like you.
On topic: I have answered questions on how I respond to early pressure from roach/bain/ling. Please refer to my previous posts.
On April 17 2012 08:55 Treva wrote: I see problems with your build, all of which cover the spectrum of a game that would go into the later stages. Sorry for the wall of text, I tried to break it up to make it more bearable and these are just my personal thoughts about your build.
Early Game:
Early roach would shut down your push and set you far behind. The meta game for TvZ right now, at least in masters of NA, is favoring zergs to get early roaches to try to punish greedy hellion play or used preemptively for defense. A very ill prepared and greedy zerg would have problems with your push I admit but an early scout of a 2 rax opener usually leaves zergs more cautious about expanding/droning (being greedy) and defensive. Another note would be a quick muta build, like the one in your youtube video in the op. This type of opener makes you have absolutely no map awareness from the point your opponent has mutas to the point you move out and forces you to sink very large amounts of money in turrets as the few marines would be no match for a counter attack. No map presence, or even threat of map presence, leaves the zerg to do almost anything.
Mid Game:
Your follow up is basically turtle super, super hard until you get a mass amount of ravens. That is a kind of transition that relies on you doing MASSIVE amounts of early damage with your reaper push. I'm talking the amount of damage that should end a game but your opponent decides to stay in anyway. However my problem is the degree of turtling. You can not be aggressive at all in the mid game, period. You have almost no ground force, any extra cash is spend in defense and ravens in small numbers aren't very good, meaning you need to sit and wait until you get a massive amount of them before looking to threaten your opponent. Any zerg who saw you turtle THAT hard would just take every available base on the map and just keep trading until you are starved out or just sit and wait for you to push, eventually destroy your army with their superior economy and then starve you out. Again, no map presence and no way of being aggressive is not a good position to be in, regardless of the MU.
Late Game:
Finally the re-enforcement option is basically air as you are pretty much just left with starports, and pure air against Zerg is pretty bad unless, again, you have a huge advantage from earlier in the game. You also will have a very hard time getting more bases (on most maps past 3) as this build needs massive structural defense in order to protect a base and getting that defense can be made pretty much impossible by a zerg who doesn't have even a scouting overlord at every base he/she doesn't have. I mean you could try to sneak a base, like you did in your video, and hope they don't scout it but that's a very unreliable approach which only becomes more difficult the better the opponent you're playing.
Side Note:
If this build is meant for the lower leagues then disregard my criticisms as I can see it being fun and effective there. I'm just a masters terran so my view comes from if I were playing a masters zerg which if was the case I could not see this build being very successful. I do applaud you for coming here and posting a build you created yourself. I know it's not easy to have people dissect something you thought up so props for that.
I appreciate constructive feedback You make some great points! There are a few things I have been considering that maybe you could comment on:
1) Producing 2-4 Banshee's following the 8 minute push; to have some mid-game pressure and force zerg to spend $ on defense and perhaps channel them towards muta play
2) While building several defensive siege tanks, research blue flame then build reactor on factory and pump helli's for better map control/harass and for securing expansions easier.
I will say though, I don't have too many problems with early game pressure. The threat of two rax typically reduces some early econ for my opponent, and when they see reapers on the field even more so. I typically push in with the first 2 reapers, scout as much as possible, kill workers and force more defense spending. Also if the reaper/marauder timing attack isn't an effective one, it doesn't mean you lose all the units and can often still drop (or threaten to) in order to pin and deny 3rd.
Instead of banshees I would recommend just getting a few medis especially if you plan on going the blue flame route. Sending out little squads of hellions in the early part of the mid game and dropping them in bases can be helpful harass. The thing with hellions though with zerg is that as the game goes on, pretty much past the early portion of the mid game where creep spread may not be terribly good, is that hellions get less and less effective. I mean making banshees, while it can be good, to force mutas only makes your hellions much less useful. With hellions and drops you force a lot more defense (spines, in base units for defense) and it's a lot easier to drop and roam the map with hellions when mutas aren't present since once you get a good amount of them zerg needs either help from roaches or something like mutas.
Hellions will help you establish a little more map control near your base but mid-late game and onward they will essentially become useless for that, if you want to use them then you need to use them for drops or punish zergs who take bases away from their main and have little to no defense. However usually once you show that you will be consistently making hellions, zergs will prepare in advance pretty well with spines for potential run-bys.
Of course this all goes in the theory testing category, I would try it out a few games and just see what happens, how it feels. You do float a lot of minerals, which is the case with a lot of heavy gas builds, so you won't really be sacrificing much except 150 gas for BF upgrade. While I don't think this particular build and style will be supportive of hellions for map control and harass I can't say for sure since I haven't messed with it or thought about it too long. Best of luck.
Thanks Treva. I appreciate your insight and the thoughtful response. If you have any other idea's I would like to hear em Cheers.
EPT
I have had success with it at a Diamond/Masters level. It's really fun to pull off and to watch! Cheers.
Part of what makes the build successful on the ladder is as you mentioned, throwing opponents off as its not even close to standard play. Thanks for being a good sport, and for your feedback!
