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MoonfireSpam
United Kingdom1153 Posts
On April 11 2012 03:37 RageBot wrote: Korean = Country. Black People = Race. And, guess what, most people worldwide don't watch NBA as much as they watch their own local leagues. Point taken. Can hate on countries. | ||
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fishjie
United States1519 Posts
the only thing that keeps sc2 remotely interesting is the actual skilled players (koreans) who can multi task and do multi prong harass. so the racist xenophobes can stop pretending to speak for everyone else. people want to see the best players play. | ||
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Maekchu
140 Posts
On April 11 2012 03:22 RageBot wrote: There are more evidance on the contarary: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327880¤tpage=28#548 So according to this link, the foreigners have much bigger fanclubs than any of the Koreans, as well as many more viewers on their streams. This would mean, they'd get much higher income from sponsors enabling them to spend much more time perfecting their gameplay. Yet, somehow the Koreans in general are still far superior. Maybe it's time for the foreign teams to re-evaluate their training practices, since they don't spend their resources correctly. In a community where e-sports is such a fundamental value, I cannot understand why there are some people that wants to limit Starcraft by "banning" out the competition. Competition is good for Starcraft and e-sports in general. The people that cannot comprehend this fact should just leave Starcraft, since you are hurting e-sports and the development of the game. | ||
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1sz2sz3sz
Andorra173 Posts
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments Lets take a look at the ones foreigners did win though (in 2011) that actually had koreans in it Stephano won ESWC that only had MKP and MC HuK won MLG Orlando after winning his PvP bracket and then taking out MKP 2-0 and stc 2-1 and an extended series final 4-1 against MC Naniwa wins MLG Global Invitational, 2 koreans Idra wins Guanzhou after only having to play ONE korean, Puma, his team mate Stephano takes IPL3 after beating Inori, STC and Lucky HuK wins DH Winter, only having to play Moon twice, in bracket and finals, and July Thorzain wins TSL3, online tournament I think people complained about lag? So besides Huk, Idra and Stephano, when are foreigners gonna step it up? | ||
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ref4
2933 Posts
On April 11 2012 03:37 RageBot wrote: Korean = Country. Black People = Race. And, guess what, most people worldwide don't watch NBA as much as they watch their own local leagues. so by your logic we should ban African Americans from playing in Olympics basketball they are too good? or the Chinese from Olympic weightlifting? or white people from swimming? | ||
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RageBot
Israel1530 Posts
Can you try and explain to me, in your words, what the people who are "anti-korean" actually say, and not your twisted, strawman version of what you think they say? I just want to see if you are actually trying to understand us or not. | ||
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ladyumbra
Canada1699 Posts
On April 11 2012 02:09 YodaGoneMad wrote: Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win. The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans. Again I ask what happens when we start getting good foreign players who don't speak any english. Do we start othering brazilian players who only speak Portuguese? What if stephano could only speak french, does he no longer get to be a foreign hero because you can't connect to him due to langauge barrier? There are langauges in this world other than english, people comes from different cultures with different customs. Sometimes you will have to see people who are not like you. Also in a sense a lot of the scene is essentially appropriating heros from other countries. Naniwa has been quite clear that while he appreciates having fans from everywhere his swedish fans mean the most to him. He doesn't respond often to fans on twitter but when he does it's usually to those tweeting to him in swedish. Hell he's skipping what is almost garunteed money for him at mlg to go to dreamhack because it means that much to him. If you're not swedish and you like him only because he's good and not korean than you are being predjudiced. You are not actually relating to your idol because there's more to being Naniwa than just " normal guy who's good at the game." Which isn't to say that someone can't be non swedish and be a genuine fan but that people like that are invested in Naniwa for a variety of reasons and have taken the time to know as much about him as they can. IDK this generic " anyone but a korean" attitude is so god damned offensive to so many different people. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On April 11 2012 03:40 fishjie wrote: people want to see the best players play. Except they don't. Plenty of top level Korean pro-gamers stream nowadays - yet their stream numbers are not in the ballpark of popular foreigner players - ie IdrA, Stephano, White-Ra, TLO, etc. Tyler gets bigger numbers when he streams than Code S Koreans - what do you think about that? | ||
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RageBot
Israel1530 Posts
On April 11 2012 03:42 ref4 wrote: so by your logic we should ban African Americans from playing in Olympics basketball they are too good? or the Chinese from Olympic weightlifting? or white people from swimming? Nope, that's your logic  In all of these other games, the "smaller leagues" have enough support of their own, and they also have a lot of viewers, compared to the difference in skill levels, so there's no need for that, when people want to watch big hype games of "local heroes" they have that, and when they want to watch the peak of gameplay, they can also watch that, just like in any normal sport (which, considering the name "eSport", is what we should be trying to emulate). For example - Israeli soccer is terrible, I don't think that we qualified for anything, anywhere, for the last 15 years, however, during our recent yearly league, an underdog team of a club from a relatively small town managed to win it all, there were headlines on all of the newspapers, there were celebrations, there were 20,000+ people in the stadium that day. And why is that? Because it means something to us Isralies, the team that won will probably never, ever get anything done in the european level, but for us it is a big deal. There should be an option for people to see the best play - they already have it with the GSL, there's also needs to be an option for people to see the people that they care about play. | ||
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ref4
2933 Posts
On April 11 2012 03:46 Azarkon wrote: Except they don't. Plenty of top level Korean pro-gamers stream nowadays - yet their stream numbers are not in the ballpark of popular foreigner players - ie IdrA, Stephano, White-Ra, TLO, etc. Tyler gets bigger numbers when he streams than Code S Koreans - what do you think about that? Most Code S Koreands do not get enough exposure. Tyler has been streaming forever and he is on SoTG & other shows etc., 99% Code S Koreans JUST started streaming recently. btw what you said is not 100% accurate. When MKP streamed he pulled in tons of viewers too, somebody could pull up the exact numbers but I can't atm. | ||
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xRevelation21
United States13 Posts
On April 11 2012 03:37 RageBot wrote: Korean = Country. Black People = Race. And, guess what, most people worldwide don't watch NBA as much as they watch their own local leagues. Not really... Korean = Race Black People = Race Korea = Country | ||
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peacenl
550 Posts
Stephano, Huk and a few other seems to be one of the few that realy know ho to adapt this style to their own. While in tournament play, time and time again I see foreigners play it out overly safe, which might just cost them the game. | ||
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Maekchu
140 Posts
On April 11 2012 03:46 Azarkon wrote: Except they don't. Plenty of top level Korean pro-gamers stream nowadays - yet their stream numbers are not in the ballpark of popular foreigner players - ie IdrA, Stephano, White-Ra, TLO, etc. Tyler gets bigger numbers when he streams than Code S Koreans - what do you think about that? So by your logic, if two platinum players had higher stream viewers than two GM players, you'd prefer to watch them play? In tournaments, I definetly say we want to see the best of the best. It's really simple, the best wins. And that's why limiting tournaments just because Koreans are better is really an ackward argument. Even if they don't have as big a follower group as us, we still want to see the best in the bigger tournaments. Also, many of those players you have mentioned have been streaming a very long time, thus enabling them to gather a very big group of followers. | ||
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Scrubwave
Poland1786 Posts
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On April 11 2012 03:48 RageBot wrote: There should be an option for people to see the best play - they already have it with the GSL, there's also needs to be an option for people to see the people that they care about play. Then the international scene needs to set up a tournament structure that roughly goes from amateur ---> semipro ---> national ---> continental ---> world instead of the current scattered scene. One of the main problems with the SC2 scene is that it is simply a collection of organizations and interests competing against each other for viewership and money. I've already said in other threads that this will be the death of "e-sports" in the western scene, not Korean dominance. | ||
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ref4
2933 Posts
On April 11 2012 03:54 CosmicSpiral wrote: Then the international scene needs to set up a tournament structure that roughly goes from amateur ---> semipro ---> national ---> continental ---> world instead of the current scattered scene. but let's no kid ourselves nobody would watch the amateur to continental tournaments (How many watched The Gathering?) that's like saying tons of people watch the WNBA (rofl). | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On April 11 2012 03:43 ladyumbra wrote: Again I ask what happens when we start getting good foreign players who don't speak any english. Do we start othering brazilian players who only speak Portuguese? What if stephano could only speak french, does he no longer get to be a foreign hero because you can't connect to him due to langauge barrier? There are langauges in this world other than english, people comes from different cultures with different customs. Sometimes you will have to see people who are not like you. Also in a sense a lot of the scene is essentially appropriating heros from other countries. Naniwa has been quite clear that while he appreciates having fans from everywhere his swedish fans mean the most to him. He doesn't respond often to fans on twitter but when he does it's usually to those tweeting to him in swedish. Hell he's skipping what is almost garunteed money for him at mlg to go to dreamhack because it means that much to him. If you're not swedish and you like him only because he's good and not korean than you are being predjudiced. You are not actually relating to your idol because there's more to being Naniwa than just " normal guy who's good at the game." Which isn't to say that someone can't be non swedish and be a genuine fan but that people like that are invested in Naniwa for a variety of reasons and have taken the time to know as much about him as they can. IDK this generic " anyone but a korean" attitude is so god damned offensive to so many different people. Why do you think Naniwa has far fewer fans than IdrA, Stephano, and HuK? It's precisely because of his attitude, which includes what you just posted. That said, the reason people appropriate heroes from other countries is because foreigner vs. Korean is the rivalry that stands out in SC 2 - NA vs. EU works just as well, but because Korean vs. foreigner is the bigger rivalry, it doesn't feature. It's these rivalries - and their ability to attract spectators to throw down their personal stakes in them - that give sports events meaning and popularity beyond the game itself - which, in SC 2's case, isn't all that great. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On April 11 2012 03:51 xRevelation21 wrote: Not really... Korean = Race Black People = Race Korea = Country Korean isn't a race. It's a nationality; an ethnic group. | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
It would make the tournaments a lot more interesting for me at least, I prefer to watch someone like Nerchio/White-ra/Mana/Thorzain play someone like Alive as opposed to watching Leenock vs Polt, even though the skill level of the second game is higher. Korea vs Foreigners has been the biggest story line in SC2 history, and now when we have players like Alive and Nestea who lack all personality, it feels like watching robots play to me. And that is not what I'm after, just as how sport fans do the same. | ||
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Maekchu
140 Posts
On April 11 2012 03:48 RageBot wrote: Nope, that's your logic In all of these other games, the "smaller leagues" have enough support of their own, and they also have a lot of viewers, compared to the difference in skill levels, so there's no need for that, when people want to watch big hype games of "local heroes" they have that, and when they want to watch the peak of gameplay, they can also watch that, just like in any normal sport (which, considering the name "eSport", is what we should be trying to emulate). For example - Israeli soccer is terrible, I don't think that we qualified for anything, anywhere, for the last 15 years, however, during our recent yearly league, an underdog team of a club from a relatively small town managed to win it all, there were headlines on all of the newspapers, there were celebrations, there were 20,000+ people in the stadium that day. And why is that? Because it means something to us Isralies, the team that won will probably never, ever get anything done in the european level, but for us it is a big deal. There should be an option for people to see the best play - they already have it with the GSL, there's also needs to be an option for people to see the people that they care about play. This is why you have smaller local tournaments. An example I know of is "Copenhagen Games" where there were no Korean entrants as far as I can see. And you'd be able to see the Danish players as well as some from other European countries. Of course, this requires someone to arrange these events. Maybe you should do that in your area... As you can see, Koreans are not entering every tournament. And what people, including myself is against, is the fact that people want to limit MAJOR tournamants (or at least that is the impression we get from reading this thread). Major tournaments should be won by the best, therefore limiting them in any way would just be ridiculous. | ||
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