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On April 11 2012 03:52 Maekchu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 03:46 Azarkon wrote:On April 11 2012 03:40 fishjie wrote:
people want to see the best players play. Except they don't. Plenty of top level Korean pro-gamers stream nowadays - yet their stream numbers are not in the ballpark of popular foreigner players - ie IdrA, Stephano, White-Ra, TLO, etc. Tyler gets bigger numbers when he streams than Code S Koreans - what do you think about that? So by your logic, if two platinum players had higher stream viewers than two GM players, you'd prefer to watch them play? In tournaments, I definetly say we want to see the best of the best. It's really simple, the best wins. And that's why limiting tournaments just because Koreans are better is really an ackward argument. Even if they don't have as big a follower group as us, we still want to see the best in the bigger tournaments. Also, many of those players you have mentioned have been streaming a very long time, thus enabling them to gather a very big group of followers.
Refrain from we when you mean me. Tournaments and streams are two sides of the same coin - you don't go from watching IdrA stream to not watching him in tournaments. Fans follow players, which is why a tournament featuring IdrA crushing a bunch of Platinums gets a huge number of views, but a bunch of Platinums crushing each other gets none.
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On April 11 2012 04:00 FiWiFaKi wrote:
I actually am going to agree with the OP's point. We need to have foreigners in tournaments, Starcraft isn't cock-fighting. You need to have personality, and just as much as an opponents starcraft gets involved into whether you cheer for them or not, it is the exact same for if their nationality, why not let some nationalism and patriotism get involved?
It would make the tournaments a lot more interesting for me at least, I prefer to watch someone like Nerchio/White-ra/Mana/Thorzain play someone like Alive as opposed to watching Leenock vs Polt, even though the skill level of the second game is higher.
Korea vs Foreigners has been the biggest story line in SC2 history, and now when we have players like Alive and Nestea who lack all personality, it feels like watching robots play to me. And that is not what I'm after, just as how sport fans do the same.
Of those you listed only White-ra has personality, and I am sorry to say but he will get utterly demolished by aLive, heck, any Code B Korean, it's not even remotely entertaining to watch. Right now watching foreigners vs. Koreans is like watching a middle school bully fighting Mike Tyson. I would much rather watch Ali vs. Tyson even if both of them lack personalities or happened to be gigantic assholes.
The reason Korean pros lack personality is b/c they can't speak English. I really think they need to take English classes for the good of eSports. But that means translators will be out of work! Poor Smix 
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On April 11 2012 04:00 Maekchu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 03:48 RageBot wrote:On April 11 2012 03:42 ref4 wrote:On April 11 2012 03:37 RageBot wrote:On April 11 2012 03:34 MoonfireSpam wrote:
So if black guys were better at basketball, would you ban them? Korean = Country. Black People = Race. And, guess what, most people worldwide don't watch NBA as much as they watch their own local leagues. so by your logic we should ban African Americans from playing in Olympics basketball they are too good? or the Chinese from Olympic weightlifting? or white people from swimming? Nope, that's your logic  In all of these other games, the "smaller leagues" have enough support of their own, and they also have a lot of viewers, compared to the difference in skill levels, so there's no need for that, when people want to watch big hype games of "local heroes" they have that, and when they want to watch the peak of gameplay, they can also watch that, just like in any normal sport (which, considering the name "eSport", is what we should be trying to emulate). For example - Israeli soccer is terrible, I don't think that we qualified for anything, anywhere, for the last 15 years, however, during our recent yearly league, an underdog team of a club from a relatively small town managed to win it all, there were headlines on all of the newspapers, there were celebrations, there were 20,000+ people in the stadium that day. And why is that? Because it means something to us Isralies, the team that won will probably never, ever get anything done in the european level, but for us it is a big deal. There should be an option for people to see the best play - they already have it with the GSL, there's also needs to be an option for people to see the people that they care about play. This is why you have smaller local tournaments. An example I know of is "Copenhagen Games" where there were no Korean entrants as far as I can see. And you'd be able to see the Danish players as well as some from other European countries. Of course, this requires someone to arrange these events. Maybe you should do that in your area... As you can see, Koreans are not entering every tournament. And what people, including myself is against, is the fact that people want to limit MAJOR tournamants (or at least that is the impression we get from reading this thread). Major tournaments should be won by the best, therefore limiting them in any way would just be ridiculous.
Why will it be ridiculous? Again, the most watched american event was Orlando, it didn't have the best quality of games, it didn't have the most Koreans, it had the most interesting storyline with Huk winning.
The only people who are hurt, short term, from having less (notice - i've said less, not no) Koreans are:
The specific Korean players who would've got top 8/16.
The "Hardcore" fans who only want to watch amazing games everywhere, even while they have the GSL for that.
While people who get hurt are - the majority of the fans.
Now... long term:
All of the Koreans get hurt due to the scene imploding.
All of the hardcore fans, due to the scene imploding.
All of the casual fans, due to the scene imploding.
What's ridiculous is doing something that is against the long term benefit of yourself, of your scene, of everybody who loves starcraft.
It should go like this:
Premier league - GSL, with no Foreign seeds.
Major leagues - DH, IEM, MLG, IPL and so on, allow Koreans but limit them to around 8.
Minor tournemants - like the gathering and so on, it wouldn't matter if you ban Koreans or not because they won't come anyway.
Dailies/Weeklies - Like Playhem, Go4SC2, should be region based, AKA, no Koreans in NA Playhem, because that stunts the growth of local players.
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United States15275 Posts
On April 11 2012 03:56 ref4 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 03:54 CosmicSpiral wrote:On April 11 2012 03:48 RageBot wrote:
There should be an option for people to see the best play - they already have it with the GSL, there's also needs to be an option for people to see the people that they care about play. Then the international scene needs to set up a tournament structure that roughly goes from amateur ---> semipro ---> national ---> continental ---> world instead of the current scattered scene. but let's no kid ourselves nobody would watch the amateur to continental tournaments (How many watched The Gathering?) that's like saying tons of people watch the WNBA (rofl).
A lot of people didn't watch the Gathering because it occurred over the same weekend as IPL4, as did Copenhagen Games and Medion Trophy. This just further proves my point: there is no comprehensible reason why all these tournaments should be playing at the same time and forcing viewers to choose between them.
LOL don't be stupid. Ever heard of March Madness, D-league, NBA, the Olympic national team? Every successful sport in history has an identifiable structure by which you can trace the bottom level to the top level. College basketball certainly wasn't pushed by the same forces that created the NBA, but that is the appeal. They all have different audiences and there is no need to compete with each other for fans since one can be a fan at all levels for entirely different reasons. But we don't have any of this for SC2.
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On April 11 2012 04:00 FiWiFaKi wrote:
[...]and now when we have players like Alive and Nestea who lack all personality, it feels like watching robots play to me. [...]
In your eyes it's lack of personality, in others it's just Korean culture. If you knew a bit about how cultures work you'd understand.
But personality doesn't really change the fact that they are better and wins tournaments.
Do you like the personalities of all the top athletes in the world? I suppose you probably don't. But then again, what are you going to do against that?
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On April 11 2012 02:22 RageBot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 00:55 ladyumbra wrote:On April 10 2012 23:46 RageBot wrote:
I find it hilarious, not a single person of the "pro-korean" posters have said anything about the actual points of the "anti-korean" posters.
You just blame us for being "racist", say stuff like "we should work harder" (while you are never part of that "we" since you are just a guy posting in TL without a hint of SC2 skill), you don't realize that we (the "casual" fans) are the majority (check out the voting on HuK vs Heart on the last MLG).
You also seem to be uncapable of realizing that we don't wish to ban Koreans altogether, we just don't want 30+ Koreans in a tournemant. Ok lets try this. concern 1 . We can't relate to the koreans ! * Already disproven by multiple people in multiple posts. It is entirely possible to relate to people outside your own culture. NA probably has the largest casual fanbase and the least Pros capable of showing off impressive games. Chances are the last foreigner in a tournament will be european and/ or currently training in korea. Most of the time the primary language of that player will not be english. Even if they speak english it will not always be entirely smooth becuase of different grammar structures etc (ex. naniwa. white-ra, stephano). While not racist saying " I only want to cheer for people who're like me" is certainly predjudiced and false since the average new yorker probably has nothing in common with Mana or Bling or Kas etc. Casual fans like that are creating their own boundaries on who they feel they can relate to. If we suddenly get a slew of foreign pros from idk south america who can win major tournaments but need a translator because they don't speak english I highly doubt they will be embraced by all. The world VS korea nonsense gives an illusion of a united western scene but such a thing does not exist. Concern 2. We want to see a variety of players ! * So do I, which means not seeing the same few foreign hopes trotted out at every tournament. However that requires the pro scenes of different regions to produce players who can actually qualify for events. . Limiting how many players can come from each region will almost always lead to only the same players coming from each region. Even if you hold qualifiers, NA will almost always end up being HuK, Idra, Select etc. EU would have to split into mini regions but would predictaly be a zerg like ret, morrow or nerchio, a toss like Naniwa, Mana or Sase, and a terran like Thorzain, Tarson or Kas. Korea would actually have the most fluid roster since they have a wider amount of top level pros who can all beat each other on any given day. Also the scene is currently not set up to have such a system because all our tournaments are run by different leagues. It'd be awkward if one league introduced region limits and others didn't. Then you basically split the fanbase between those who want equal representation and those who want to see the best play out of people who legit earned thier way into a tournament. teams then also have to choose which competitions to send their players too and how that looks to the general public. Plus you know most foreign teams have atleast one korean player now, I'm sure it'd be great if liquid was like " Hey guys we're taking everyone to mlg for open bracket but um Hero and Zenio and Taeja becuase you see we can't have too many koreans." Concern 3 All koreans is boring to watch! * This is subjective and it depends on the players in question. If you fill a tournament with drg, mc, mma, mkp etc even casual people will like it becuase they like those players and their playstyles. Concern 4 We can't qualify becuase we can't get through open bracket! * Tough cookies, a qualifier like open bracket weeds out the weak, if foreign players can't get through then they didn't deserve to be there anyways. How many god damned times did people bitch about incontrol going 0-5 in groups at mlg because he could not keep up with what was still mostly just other foreign players and a handful of koreans. Limiting how many koreans can play in qualifers and open brackets would only lead to more awkward situations where someone undeserving makes it to groups and gets facerolled. Huk and Sase almost made it to pool play at IPl4 and they took down several koreans to do so. If we redid that open bracket multiple times there's a good chance some of those times they'd get through becuase they've proven capable of consistent high level play. However this time they failed, it's not the end of the world. concern 5. There are more casual fans we deserve to be the biggest voice! * Dosen't matter, especially as tournaments move towards more sustainable revenue types. Hardcore watchers are more likely to pay for HD, vods, multiple cameras so they can watch from a pros pov etc. Being the majority does not make you more important and doesn't even garuntee that you contribute the most to the community despite having more people to do so with. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327880¤tpage=28#548Here are some actualy numbers, not your opinion based on a vocal part (maybe majority, maybe not) of a site that at most includes 25% of the SC2 viewerbase (probably around 10%, during IPL4 there were 180,000 live views on the streams while only 17,000 people were on TL).
I'm unsure as to your point here. I know people like watching foreigners. I like watching and cheering for foreigners. That still doesn't tell me why tournaments should start doing region limiting for all the reasons I pointed out before. It's going to limit variety more than we already get, it puts teams in awkward situations etc etc.
Wanting more visible foreign players is not a problematic view. Attempting to enforce it via region limiting is, especially when the majority of the money is in big international tournaments.
Honestly a more unified and organized starcraft scene is needed to sort this thing out. There needs to be more tournaments at the local level that allow players to compete for fame within their region more readily. Hell I think between gsl, ksl and esv weeklies korea may have the most steady group of recurring tournaments that keep players active and motivated. More stuff like that would appeal to casual watchers and be on at better hours for each locale.
Big tournaments though I still feel those should be merit based. It may suck to see Huk fall short of pool play but I just can't honestly say I feel comfortable letting in weaker players over stronger ones. Does it not invalidate a win a little when you know you didn't face as hard a challenge as you could have. Even idra was less proud of his iem win where all he faced was puma then his orlando placement where he went toe to toe with bomber and came out ahead.
Also an IP4 situation is not likely to happen again. Korean teams do not have the money to fly out thier whole team to play in open brakcets whenever they want. there is already naturally limiting factors to how many korean players will be at any given tournament.
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On April 11 2012 04:06 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 03:56 ref4 wrote:On April 11 2012 03:54 CosmicSpiral wrote:On April 11 2012 03:48 RageBot wrote:
There should be an option for people to see the best play - they already have it with the GSL, there's also needs to be an option for people to see the people that they care about play. Then the international scene needs to set up a tournament structure that roughly goes from amateur ---> semipro ---> national ---> continental ---> world instead of the current scattered scene. but let's no kid ourselves nobody would watch the amateur to continental tournaments (How many watched The Gathering?) that's like saying tons of people watch the WNBA (rofl). A lot of people didn't watch the Gathering because it occurred over the same weekend as IPL4, as did Copenhagen Games and Medion Trophy. This just further proves my point: there is no comprehensible reason why all these tournaments should be playing at the same time and forcing viewers to choose between them. LOL don't be stupid. Ever heard of March Madness, D-league, the Olympic national team? Every successful sport in history has an identifiable structure by which you can trace the bottom level to the top level. College basketball certainly wasn't pushed by the same forces that created the NBA, but that is the appeal.
Of course I have heard of them. I am just saying at the current level most Foreign pros are like WNBA players while Korean pros are NBA players. Naniwa, Huk, Stephano, IdrA (maybe if all the stars aligned) are college men basketballers.
Again, nobody likes to watch the WNBA (besides women I guess), which was my point.
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So you guys would seriously rather watch low level foreign play than top level Korean play because you can "relate" to crappy foreigners, or because underdog stories are nice?
Or because lack of foreigners are killing the SC2 scene? Not the emergence of other PC titles like LoL? It's lack of foreigners?
Seriously... TL come on now. I come here for intelligent discussion...
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Austria24417 Posts
I'm a Destiny fan. Do I think Koreans should be banned from tournaments just so I can see him play at the IPL group stages or whatever? Hell no. There will still be smaller tournaments which only few Koreans will attend, the various european tournaments like Homestory Cup for example. Watch those if you wanna see your favorite players. If they do decide to compete with the best of the best at the biggest tournaments and get crushed, it's their fault. You can't just ban Koreans for that, of course they're gonna attend tournaments with huge opportunities in money and prestige and they should, because they work hard as hell for exactly that.
Your logic is off if you think that restricting tournaments so more foreigners play in them will benefit eSports at all. If anything, this will result in less prestige upon winning those tournaments, less prize money because less competition AND fewer viewers.
There's a reason why the GSL stream and website completely crashed during the finals - it's because most people wanna see the best of the best.
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On April 11 2012 04:01 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 03:52 Maekchu wrote:On April 11 2012 03:46 Azarkon wrote:On April 11 2012 03:40 fishjie wrote:
people want to see the best players play. Except they don't. Plenty of top level Korean pro-gamers stream nowadays - yet their stream numbers are not in the ballpark of popular foreigner players - ie IdrA, Stephano, White-Ra, TLO, etc. Tyler gets bigger numbers when he streams than Code S Koreans - what do you think about that? So by your logic, if two platinum players had higher stream viewers than two GM players, you'd prefer to watch them play? In tournaments, I definetly say we want to see the best of the best. It's really simple, the best wins. And that's why limiting tournaments just because Koreans are better is really an ackward argument. Even if they don't have as big a follower group as us, we still want to see the best in the bigger tournaments. Also, many of those players you have mentioned have been streaming a very long time, thus enabling them to gather a very big group of followers. Don't say we when you mean me. Tournaments and streams are two sides of the same coin - you don't go from watching IdrA stream to not watching him in tournaments. Fans follow players, which is why a tournament featuring IdrA crushing a bunch of Platinums gets a huge number of views, but a bunch of Platinums crushing each other gets none.
First of all you didn't really answer my question.
Second, yes I used "we", because if I made a poll I'm pretty sure the majority of the Starcraft community would prefer to watch the best of the best in the major tournaments instead of watching two mediocre players.
Also, you can follow your national "hero" in a tournament but that doesn't mean you cannot enjoy the rest of it just because your "hero" didn't win it all. For example, when Denmark enters the World Cup, I don't expect them to win (even though it would be nice), yet I can still watch the finals even though Denmark is not playing.
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Hm. The way I see it, right now we are in a very special phase of sc2 where the competition truly is international. But, it's temporary and everyone knows it. The gap is widening and at some point the time when a foreigner could make a sweet run for the money in a tournament full of S-class koreans will be seen as a parenthesis in the history of sc2. That's one of the reasons I cheer for foreigners, I really do enjoy the international style competition we have right now with people travelling all over the world and people from so many nations competing in sc2. I hope for the foreigners to do well, because that in itself extends the period in which we get to see this sort of competition.
When the odds of the very best foreigners beating B-teamers starts approaching null as was the case in broodwar, I fully expect there to be foreigner only or region limited tournaments and leagues. I don't really mind it though, because personally I loved TSL and proleague almost equally, but what we have right now is better. Enjoy it while it lasts.
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On April 11 2012 04:11 Flonomenalz wrote:
So you guys would seriously rather watch low level foreign play than top level Korean play because you can "relate" to crappy foreigners, or because underdog stories are nice?
Or because lack of foreigners are killing the SC2 scene? Not the emergence of other PC titles like LoL? It's lack of foreigners?
Seriously... TL come on now. I come here for intelligent discussion...
These words could be coming from my heart. The suggestion by the OP is not thought out at all.
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United States15275 Posts
On April 11 2012 04:10 ref4 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 04:06 CosmicSpiral wrote:On April 11 2012 03:56 ref4 wrote:On April 11 2012 03:54 CosmicSpiral wrote:On April 11 2012 03:48 RageBot wrote:
There should be an option for people to see the best play - they already have it with the GSL, there's also needs to be an option for people to see the people that they care about play. Then the international scene needs to set up a tournament structure that roughly goes from amateur ---> semipro ---> national ---> continental ---> world instead of the current scattered scene. but let's no kid ourselves nobody would watch the amateur to continental tournaments (How many watched The Gathering?) that's like saying tons of people watch the WNBA (rofl). A lot of people didn't watch the Gathering because it occurred over the same weekend as IPL4, as did Copenhagen Games and Medion Trophy. This just further proves my point: there is no comprehensible reason why all these tournaments should be playing at the same time and forcing viewers to choose between them. LOL don't be stupid. Ever heard of March Madness, D-league, the Olympic national team? Every successful sport in history has an identifiable structure by which you can trace the bottom level to the top level. College basketball certainly wasn't pushed by the same forces that created the NBA, but that is the appeal. Of course I have heard of them. I am just saying at the current level most Foreign pros are like WNBA players while Korean pros are NBA players. Naniwa, Huk, Stephano, IdrA (maybe if all the stars aligned) are college men basketballers. Again, nobody likes to watch the WNBA (besides women I guess), which was my point.
The NBA is as far ahead of the WNBA as the NBA is ahead of college basketball. So I guess every foreigner is a WNBA player?
People like to watch college basketball despite the fact that most college players get murdered in the NBA. The difference is college basketball is not trying to promote itself as an alternative to the NBA, a position which the WNBA will always be in.
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On April 11 2012 04:13 Maekchu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 04:01 Azarkon wrote:On April 11 2012 03:52 Maekchu wrote:On April 11 2012 03:46 Azarkon wrote:On April 11 2012 03:40 fishjie wrote:
people want to see the best players play. Except they don't. Plenty of top level Korean pro-gamers stream nowadays - yet their stream numbers are not in the ballpark of popular foreigner players - ie IdrA, Stephano, White-Ra, TLO, etc. Tyler gets bigger numbers when he streams than Code S Koreans - what do you think about that? So by your logic, if two platinum players had higher stream viewers than two GM players, you'd prefer to watch them play? In tournaments, I definetly say we want to see the best of the best. It's really simple, the best wins. And that's why limiting tournaments just because Koreans are better is really an ackward argument. Even if they don't have as big a follower group as us, we still want to see the best in the bigger tournaments. Also, many of those players you have mentioned have been streaming a very long time, thus enabling them to gather a very big group of followers. Don't say we when you mean me. Tournaments and streams are two sides of the same coin - you don't go from watching IdrA stream to not watching him in tournaments. Fans follow players, which is why a tournament featuring IdrA crushing a bunch of Platinums gets a huge number of views, but a bunch of Platinums crushing each other gets none. First of all you didn't really answer my question. Second, yes I used "we", because if I made a poll I'm pretty sure the majority of the Starcraft community would prefer to watch the best of the best in the major tournaments instead of watching two mediocre players. Also, you can follow your national "hero" in a tournament but that doesn't mean you cannot enjoy the rest of it just because your "hero" didn't win it all. For example, when Denmark enters the World Cup, I don't expect them to win (even though it would be nice), yet I can still watch the finals even though Denmark is not playing.
Go for it, make that poll, post it on TL, Reddit, /V/, EG's site, Mouz's site, pretty much the site of every team, every eSports site, ask Day[9] to post it, ask Tastosis to post it, go for IEM, DH, IPL, MLG and so on.
This will be the best for this discussion, wouldn't it?
And again - evidance are against you, check the popular streamers, they are not Korean, check out the fan clubs (on the hardcore TL site!) - the biggest ones are not Korean, neither are most of the medium scale ones, which MLGs are the most watched? Foreigner wins over Koreans, same for IPL, same for IEM, same for everyone, even gomtv.
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On April 11 2012 04:11 Flonomenalz wrote:
So you guys would seriously rather watch low level foreign play than top level Korean play because you can "relate" to crappy foreigners, or because underdog stories are nice?
Or because lack of foreigners are killing the SC2 scene? Not the emergence of other PC titles like LoL? It's lack of foreigners?
Seriously... TL come on now. I come here for intelligent discussion...
No, you didn't, you came here to find other people with similar viewpoints, and that you can discuss stuff that interests you.
AKA - people you can relate too 
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On April 11 2012 04:08 ladyumbra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 02:22 RageBot wrote:On April 11 2012 00:55 ladyumbra wrote:On April 10 2012 23:46 RageBot wrote:
I find it hilarious, not a single person of the "pro-korean" posters have said anything about the actual points of the "anti-korean" posters.
You just blame us for being "racist", say stuff like "we should work harder" (while you are never part of that "we" since you are just a guy posting in TL without a hint of SC2 skill), you don't realize that we (the "casual" fans) are the majority (check out the voting on HuK vs Heart on the last MLG).
You also seem to be uncapable of realizing that we don't wish to ban Koreans altogether, we just don't want 30+ Koreans in a tournemant. Ok lets try this. concern 1 . We can't relate to the koreans ! * Already disproven by multiple people in multiple posts. It is entirely possible to relate to people outside your own culture. NA probably has the largest casual fanbase and the least Pros capable of showing off impressive games. Chances are the last foreigner in a tournament will be european and/ or currently training in korea. Most of the time the primary language of that player will not be english. Even if they speak english it will not always be entirely smooth becuase of different grammar structures etc (ex. naniwa. white-ra, stephano). While not racist saying " I only want to cheer for people who're like me" is certainly predjudiced and false since the average new yorker probably has nothing in common with Mana or Bling or Kas etc. Casual fans like that are creating their own boundaries on who they feel they can relate to. If we suddenly get a slew of foreign pros from idk south america who can win major tournaments but need a translator because they don't speak english I highly doubt they will be embraced by all. The world VS korea nonsense gives an illusion of a united western scene but such a thing does not exist. Concern 2. We want to see a variety of players ! * So do I, which means not seeing the same few foreign hopes trotted out at every tournament. However that requires the pro scenes of different regions to produce players who can actually qualify for events. . Limiting how many players can come from each region will almost always lead to only the same players coming from each region. Even if you hold qualifiers, NA will almost always end up being HuK, Idra, Select etc. EU would have to split into mini regions but would predictaly be a zerg like ret, morrow or nerchio, a toss like Naniwa, Mana or Sase, and a terran like Thorzain, Tarson or Kas. Korea would actually have the most fluid roster since they have a wider amount of top level pros who can all beat each other on any given day. Also the scene is currently not set up to have such a system because all our tournaments are run by different leagues. It'd be awkward if one league introduced region limits and others didn't. Then you basically split the fanbase between those who want equal representation and those who want to see the best play out of people who legit earned thier way into a tournament. teams then also have to choose which competitions to send their players too and how that looks to the general public. Plus you know most foreign teams have atleast one korean player now, I'm sure it'd be great if liquid was like " Hey guys we're taking everyone to mlg for open bracket but um Hero and Zenio and Taeja becuase you see we can't have too many koreans." Concern 3 All koreans is boring to watch! * This is subjective and it depends on the players in question. If you fill a tournament with drg, mc, mma, mkp etc even casual people will like it becuase they like those players and their playstyles. Concern 4 We can't qualify becuase we can't get through open bracket! * Tough cookies, a qualifier like open bracket weeds out the weak, if foreign players can't get through then they didn't deserve to be there anyways. How many god damned times did people bitch about incontrol going 0-5 in groups at mlg because he could not keep up with what was still mostly just other foreign players and a handful of koreans. Limiting how many koreans can play in qualifers and open brackets would only lead to more awkward situations where someone undeserving makes it to groups and gets facerolled. Huk and Sase almost made it to pool play at IPl4 and they took down several koreans to do so. If we redid that open bracket multiple times there's a good chance some of those times they'd get through becuase they've proven capable of consistent high level play. However this time they failed, it's not the end of the world. concern 5. There are more casual fans we deserve to be the biggest voice! * Dosen't matter, especially as tournaments move towards more sustainable revenue types. Hardcore watchers are more likely to pay for HD, vods, multiple cameras so they can watch from a pros pov etc. Being the majority does not make you more important and doesn't even garuntee that you contribute the most to the community despite having more people to do so with. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327880¤tpage=28#548Here are some actualy numbers, not your opinion based on a vocal part (maybe majority, maybe not) of a site that at most includes 25% of the SC2 viewerbase (probably around 10%, during IPL4 there were 180,000 live views on the streams while only 17,000 people were on TL). I'm unsure as to your point here. I know people like watching foreigners. I like watching and cheering for foreigners. That still doesn't tell me why tournaments should start doing region limiting for all the reasons I pointed out before. It's going to limit variety more than we already get, it puts teams in awkward situations etc etc. Wanting more visible foreign players is not a problematic view. Attempting to enforce it via region limiting is, especially when the majority of the money is in big international tournaments. Honestly a more unified and organized starcraft scene is needed to sort this thing out. There needs to be more tournaments at the local level that allow players to compete for fame within their region more readily. HellI think betwen gsl, ksl and esv weeklies korea may have the most steady group of recurring tournaments that keep players active and motivated. More stuff like that would appeal to casual watchers and be on at better hours for each locale. Big tournaments though I still feel those should be merit based. It may suck to see Huk fall short of pool play but I just can't honestly say I feel comfortable letting in weaker players over stronger ones. Does it not invalidate a win a little when you know you didn't face as hard a challenge as you could have. even idra was less proud of his iem win where all he faced was puma then his orlando placement where he went toe to toe with bomber and came out ahead. Also an IP4 situation is not likely to happen again. Korean teams do not have the money to fly out thier whole team to play in open brakcets whenever they want. there is already naturally limiting factors to how many korean players will be at any given tournament.
Region limiting tournaments has a number of positives and negatives. Lowering diversity is not, however, one of its negatives.
Region limiting has the following effects on tournament organization:
* It promotes diversity. Having 16 Koreans is not diversity. Having 4 Koreans, 4 Americans, 4 Europeans, and 4 Southeast Asians is diversity.
* It lowers costs. With 16 Koreans, tournament organizers in NA and EU have to intercontinentally fly in every single one of its players. With 4 Americans, however, they don't.
* It gives viewers all over the world home favorites to cheer for, and gives a global feel to the event.
It has the following drawbacks:
* It lowers the average level of play.
* It is not strictly meritocratic.
A middle ground solution for major weekend tournaments is, I think, to reserve a larger number of spots for Koreans - ie 30-40% instead of 25% - and to structure brackets such that Korean vs. foreigner matches happen throughout the course of the weekend.
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On April 11 2012 04:06 RageBot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 04:00 Maekchu wrote:On April 11 2012 03:48 RageBot wrote:On April 11 2012 03:42 ref4 wrote:On April 11 2012 03:37 RageBot wrote:On April 11 2012 03:34 MoonfireSpam wrote:
So if black guys were better at basketball, would you ban them? Korean = Country. Black People = Race. And, guess what, most people worldwide don't watch NBA as much as they watch their own local leagues. so by your logic we should ban African Americans from playing in Olympics basketball they are too good? or the Chinese from Olympic weightlifting? or white people from swimming? Nope, that's your logic In all of these other games, the "smaller leagues" have enough support of their own, and they also have a lot of viewers, compared to the difference in skill levels, so there's no need for that, when people want to watch big hype games of "local heroes" they have that, and when they want to watch the peak of gameplay, they can also watch that, just like in any normal sport (which, considering the name "eSport", is what we should be trying to emulate). For example - Israeli soccer is terrible, I don't think that we qualified for anything, anywhere, for the last 15 years, however, during our recent yearly league, an underdog team of a club from a relatively small town managed to win it all, there were headlines on all of the newspapers, there were celebrations, there were 20,000+ people in the stadium that day. And why is that? Because it means something to us Isralies, the team that won will probably never, ever get anything done in the european level, but for us it is a big deal. There should be an option for people to see the best play - they already have it with the GSL, there's also needs to be an option for people to see the people that they care about play. This is why you have smaller local tournaments. An example I know of is "Copenhagen Games" where there were no Korean entrants as far as I can see. And you'd be able to see the Danish players as well as some from other European countries. Of course, this requires someone to arrange these events. Maybe you should do that in your area... As you can see, Koreans are not entering every tournament. And what people, including myself is against, is the fact that people want to limit MAJOR tournamants (or at least that is the impression we get from reading this thread). Major tournaments should be won by the best, therefore limiting them in any way would just be ridiculous. Why will it be ridiculous? Again, the most watched american event was Orlando, it didn't have the best quality of games, it didn't have the most Koreans, it had the most interesting storyline with Huk winning. The only people who are hurt, short term, from having less (notice - i've said less, not no) Koreans are: The specific Korean players who would've got top 8/16. The "Hardcore" fans who only want to watch amazing games everywhere, even while they have the GSL for that. While people who get hurt are - the majority of the fans. Now... long term: All of the Koreans get hurt due to the scene imploding. All of the hardcore fans, due to the scene imploding. All of the casual fans, due to the scene imploding. What's ridiculous is doing something that is against the long term benefit of yourself, of your scene, of everybody who loves starcraft. It should go like this: Premier league - GSL, with no Foreign seeds. Major leagues - DH, IEM, MLG, IPL and so on, allow Koreans but limit them to around 8. Minor tournemants - like the gathering and so on, it wouldn't matter if you ban Koreans or not because they won't come anyway. Dailies/Weeklies - Like Playhem, Go4SC2, should be region based, AKA, no Koreans in NA Playhem, because that stunts the growth of local players.
I do agree that the e-sports scene should get much more organized (someone have written about this a bit earlier as well), in terms of having something like world championships, national championships etc. But I'm against banning someone out of a competition solely based on their nationality, since that is discrimination.
Something like a National Championship, where only teams of that nation could enter, could be nice for those people following their national "heroes". Whether or not an American team have acquired Koreans to play for them shouldn't matter though (Just as for example football teams acquire foreign players).
But a discussion about expanding and organizing the e-sports scene is a whole other discussion compared to what this thread is...
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IPL and MLG already noticed that they need more regional qualifiers for their events or else people lose interest.
IEM does it right except that they didn't have Korean/Asian Qualifiers.
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Sigh...
Short answer: Huk, Stephano, and Naniwa (in that order).
Slightly-longer answer: Illusion, Major, State, Scarlett, Morrow.
Long answer:
I think the people who keep making sports analogies fall short of their point. It's not because they argued their point badly, but because there is an inherent limitation in using analogies: apples are not oranges.
Sports thrive on a local scene because they need physical presence in that particular scene. The players, despite their training, are also figures in a community that everyone in a town has probably seen or met at least once. This doesn't quite ring true for computer games, because of the nature of the internet. Thus, physical sports will always be more "localized" than computer games.
Now as to the general arguments... while for the short term it would appear that limiting Korean participation would give more chances for foreigners to win, it would do nothing for the long term. Foreigners don't need to win more, they need to get better. 10th place at a tourney with 16 Koreans is far more impressive than getting 3rd with only 2 Koreans in the mix. Foreigners need to step up. And it's not the infrastructure that needs changing, it's the culture. The culture of practice, of work ethic, of replay analysis and experimentation - all of that is present in the current Korean infrastructure but would not have been possible if not for the hard-working culture the Koreans embraced due to their past as a 3rd world country. And for the claims that the non-Koreans pros practice does not pay off as much as Korean practice does, I can say this with certainty: most pros already practice on the Korean server. That argument is worth little in the light of Battlenet 2.0 and the corresponding globalization of electronic sports. That's the beauty of e-sports, there are no borders.
And I don't know about you, but I'd like to keep things that way.
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that's like saying, bro everyone from brazil dominates brazilian jiu jitsu and we gotta do something about this. almost no one beats them!
well no shit man, it's everyone else's fault for not caring as much and not putting as much effort. they deserve to win, just like the koreans do, because they put in the work.
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EPT
