|
On April 11 2012 05:14 RageBot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 05:12 MoonfireSpam wrote:On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote:This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play. the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers! Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did. What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans. To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come  Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan. People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants. For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing.
As for choosing what to match to show, that is a valid point, and one that future tourney organisers should definately consider and I agree that they should not necessarily focus on Koreans all the time.
I dont think you can stop Korean top 8 finishes though. For example, would you limit the number of American entrants into the open bracket?
|
woopsiedoodles, wrong thread, nothing to see here, move along
|
I think one of the interesting things about how WCG used to work is that it meant something to be the best player from the US, or whatever. It is a shame to lose that, but at the end of the day, I just like seeing good players and I don't particularly care where they live.
|
Re: no one wants to see crappy foreigners play strawman.
You're right, nobody wants to see foreigners play when the first six zerglings a Korean pro sends kills them outright - as Jaedoing did to his foreigner opponents in BW WCG.
But this isn't the problem in SC 2 right now. The problem is that we have a handful of foreigner favorites who are able to compete vs. Koreans - and at times upset them - but no one gets to see them play because they get knocked out during the qualifiers and OBs.
Get better, you say? But that's not the problem - the problem is the ratio of top Koreans to top foreigners. HuK, Illusion, and SaSe took out 2-3 Code A/Code S Koreans each, but where did it get them? Nowhere. Under the current format, you have to outclass Code A/Code S Koreans to make it into pool play from the OBs as a foreigner and that's never going to happen.
It's a counting game. The Korean SC 2 scene has a huge pool of Code A/Code S level pros to the handful that foreigners have, and when they show in force to foreigner tournaments they are able to prevent foreigner pros of equivalent skill from advancing into pool play.
Take Stephano, for example. He has a slightly less than 50% win rate against top Korean pros. By that stat he has what it takes to compete. But put him in an OB with 20-30 top Korean pros and he's going to be knocked out within 2-3 rounds. The sheer ratio of Korean pros to foreigner pros ensures that tournaments running the format they're running right now are going to have entirely Korean line-ups during main stage play.
People who watch SC 2 striclty for the level of skill displayed has no issue with this - Stephano to them is the same as a random Korean Code A Zerg. But this is not how eSports viewership works, hence the need for change.
|
The korean teams just provide the best conditions for practicing a lot. Combine that with the korean practicing mentality, and it is no surprise koreans are so dominant in the scene.
The European and American teams and players just need to step up a bit. I think the tournament experience they are getting against koreans is helping. I think that reducing the amount of koreans in major tournaments or seperating koreans and foreigners would only hurt the scene. Major e-sports events should always be an international experience and definitely not segregated by your nationality.
|
Hopefully koreans will continue to dominate because they always provide the best games for me to watch
|
Great thread! I'm glad someone has the courage to bring this up on this forum.
+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2012 18:04 naastyOne wrote:
Hello everyone,
While I do understand that TL webforum is quite a "certain type of people" community, there is so ridiculous amound of not called upon fail i just wanted to get in.
First of all, sport is about the SHOW, not determining who has the longest dick. While skill is an integral part of the Show, more skill doesn`t necessary means better show. When about half of matches are predictably Korean terran MMM&drops, you might as well not watch half of the tournament. Simple as that, pick the "best"(the highest in position or whatever criterium) don`t waste time on the else. Obviously this is an example, but you get the drill.
Secondly 95% to 99% will not see the difference between the "code A" and "code S" doing same BO and style of play, while they can very vell notice different styles of play and different BOs. What does it means? Basically that there is no need for 90% of tournament to be super mega pro skilled players for it to be entertaining, on contray, such tournament is less predictable, and thurs more interesting.
That is the thing that is widely seen world-wide. The lesser leagues, i mean every friging european country has 2-3 leagues of football. Strangely, they have enough fans and money to live their life, despite the fact that uniting them into one "mega" league would result in overall "higher skill".
Could continue with other sports, but pretty much all sports have their lowest competitions at inter schools or inter-university levels, with kids/students playing in free of study time, so the argument holds perfectly.
Now, Look at SC2 itself. How many of the "skilled" players praise HD/day9/whoever, and dislike Husky(H to the usky husky). Guesswhat, Husky pretty much has larger auditory than all other english casters brought together. Ever thought why? Well, he manages to do the "show" part better, while casting same replays as others.
Ever wondered why the for example Football World Cup is much more noticeable and attended event than European Cup, despite the fact that Europeans dominate football, and a part from Argentina and Brazil, pretty much no national team can stand up? Despite the fact that a lot of European underdogs are probably better than some/most of teams from other than Europe/SA region.
So what does this means? It means in an order to survive and develop any sport needs a balance of local and international events, local and international teams, and most importantly content for broad spectre of dedication, and international events should be international, it should be serving to promote and advertise the sport apon broad community.
The problem may be not the IPL itself, but the fact that there is a lack of the local/non-korean tournaments, (while there are very plenty of korean dominated tournaments) and IPL was looking like the missing part, but it was just pretty much ended up as MLG, so largely failed to provide something different and unique.
Lastly, the ones about "they need to get better" got it upside down. When korea has community, which generates enough revenue to pay large enough number of pro-gamers for a living, In NA/EU, it does not exists, so foreign players can not really dedicate themselves to SC2, because they also have education and work which is not connected to SC2 and takes time from it.
Which again brings down the question of how to build up the international community, and "international tournaments"(coupled with local ones) are a great thing to do, bot only if the "domination of one nation" is impossible, otherwise the entire event serves only as another local competition for that country.
And the words of IPL4 manager pretty much confirms it, IPL4 failed on it`s purpose of an international tournament. Still interesting event, but largely irrelevant.
This guy really hit it right on the money, and from a personal reference, I'd definitely stop watching SC2 if foreigners never won a big tournament. I don't even care if there are koreans in it or not. If some organization put on a great great show like MLG or IPL with huge prize money but only had foreigners playing, I'd definitely watch that over a weekend like this one in IPL where I might as well have been watching the GSL.
Contrary to popular belief, you don't really get better at sc2 by watching other players play. Unless you know specifically what you are looking for to improve your own play, you are not just gonna watch and get better. And, if you do know what you are looking for, there are easier ways to find it than use an entire weekend watching a tournament with a huge variety of plays. I simply don't understand this obsession with watching "the highest level play". Especially when most people can't truly recognize what makes one play slightly better than the other. I think it has just become this cool thing to say. Like somehow people want to show that they truly understand SC2... as they sit and watch other people play...
That being said, it really truly blows my freaking mind that koreans are dominating this much. You have the entire bloody planet vs one, not even that huge, country! I truly wish everyone else would be doing better. It's really disheartening when you face off vs a high GM player and get smashed and you know that this dude isn't worth squat compared to players from this one nation. Makes any goals of being a good player seem too far fetched and unreal.
|
Ok.
Lets think for a second. Foreigner tournaments ban Koreans like some of you want. Then, hypothetically, Swedes start to win everything. Should they receive the same treatment? Will American tourneys limit the number of players from Sweden or ban them just like they did with Koreans?
People will come up with the same BS. "i dont wanna watch Europeans, i wanna watch Americans! USAUSAUSA!"
Or if Americans start to win every tournament, should European events start to ban them too?
|
Meh, following the logic of the "Korean Dominance as a Threat to the Growth of E-SPORTS!" you could just as well apply the same argumentation to say, Basketball. It's not as if Starcraft is unique by not having a globally evenly distributed amount of practitioners. In fact, the sports that do see a truly global competitive field are the exception rather than the rule. (What do we have really? Footie and athletics?) If the foundations of the game itself are solid this really is a non-issue though.
|
make more korean dominance threads -_-
|
On April 11 2012 05:14 RageBot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 05:12 MoonfireSpam wrote:On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote:This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play. the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers! Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did. What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans. To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan. People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants. For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing.
Indeed.
I don't care that Koreans win. I care that I don't get to see a single foreigner play in the main streams of premier tournaments. I think it's downright absurd for premier tournament organizers to say that Starcraft is a global game and that this is the best international tournament ever, and then bring out two dozen Korean contestants and call it a night. But I understand just the same that they have to do this to get sponsors and viewers.
Koreans winning tournaments isn't hurting the game. Koreans taking practically every spot in the line-up of premier tournaments is. You are not going to convince sponsors and viewers that the game is global and that the competition is global when you end up with a line-up of 16 Koreans before the games begin. BW was that way, and no one thought BW was a global game.
|
On April 11 2012 05:37 ishyishy wrote:Hopefully koreans will continue to dominate because they always provide the best games for me to watch
Amen. When I first read the OP I just thought 'What to do? Just sit back and enjoy the Show!'
|
On April 11 2012 05:52 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 05:14 RageBot wrote:On April 11 2012 05:12 MoonfireSpam wrote:On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote:This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play. the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers! Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did. What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans. To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan. People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants. For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing. Indeed. I don't care that Koreans win. I care that I don't get to see a single foreigner play in the main streams of premier tournaments. I think it's downright absurd for premier tournament organizers to say that Starcraft is a global game and that this is the best international tournament ever, and then bring out two dozen Korean contestants and call it a night. But I understand just the same that they have to do this to get sponsors and viewers. Koreans winning tournaments isn't hurting the game. Koreans taking practically every spot in the line-up of premier tournaments is. You are not going to convince sponsors and viewers that the game is global and that the competition is global when you end up with a line-up of 16 Koreans before the games begin. BW was that way, and no one thought BW was a global game.
It's not a global game because foreigners as a whole are not as strong. Thats the problem. Guess what! Excluding nationalities doesn't make it global either.
How can you legitimise limiting entrants from one country but not another? (FYI im taking about IPL4 OB which probs had more USA than Koreans in it assuming that at least some of the unknowns in the OB were from USA, which is pretty likely).
Or better still "Hey GSTL guys, come play GSTL, but GTFO from our other tourney".
As said earlier, they should show foreigners on the main stream and spotlight local talent if anything for sponsorships sake, anything else is on dodgy ground.
|
On April 11 2012 05:52 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 05:14 RageBot wrote:On April 11 2012 05:12 MoonfireSpam wrote:On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote:This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play. the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers! Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did. What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans. To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan. People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants. For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing. Indeed. I don't care that Koreans win. I care that I don't get to see a single foreigner play in the main streams of premier tournaments. I think it's downright absurd for premier tournament organizers to say that Starcraft is a global game and that this is the best international tournament ever, and then bring out two dozen Korean contestants and call it a night. But I understand just the same that they have to do this to get sponsors and viewers. Koreans winning tournaments isn't hurting the game. Koreans taking practically every spot in the line-up of premier tournaments is. You are not going to convince sponsors and viewers that the game is global and that the competition is global when you end up with a line-up of 16 Koreans before the games begin. BW was that way, and no one thought BW was a global game.
The foreigners got their chance but failed to qualify. What's the problem? It's far worse to give charity spots out based on nationality/skin color and have completely 1 sided stomp-fests.
|
On April 11 2012 05:55 MoonfireSpam wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 05:52 Azarkon wrote:On April 11 2012 05:14 RageBot wrote:On April 11 2012 05:12 MoonfireSpam wrote:On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote:This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play. the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers! Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did. What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans. To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan. People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants. For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing. Indeed. I don't care that Koreans win. I care that I don't get to see a single foreigner play in the main streams of premier tournaments. I think it's downright absurd for premier tournament organizers to say that Starcraft is a global game and that this is the best international tournament ever, and then bring out two dozen Korean contestants and call it a night. But I understand just the same that they have to do this to get sponsors and viewers. Koreans winning tournaments isn't hurting the game. Koreans taking practically every spot in the line-up of premier tournaments is. You are not going to convince sponsors and viewers that the game is global and that the competition is global when you end up with a line-up of 16 Koreans before the games begin. BW was that way, and no one thought BW was a global game. It's not a global game. Thats the problem. Guess what! Excluding nationalities doesn't make it global either. How can you legitimise limiting entrants from one country but not another? (FYI im taking about IPL4 OB which probs had more USA than Koreans in it assuming that at least some of the unknowns in the OB were from USA, which is pretty likely).
I don't know where you got the idea that regional qualifiers only limit entrants from Korea. They limit entrants from every region. Having Swedes take the Top 3 in a major tournament is a non-issue for me. Having every player in a major tournament be Swede, on the other hand, is an issue. I want to see global competition, and I think SC 2 still has it - but it's being killed.
|
On April 11 2012 05:58 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 05:52 Azarkon wrote:On April 11 2012 05:14 RageBot wrote:On April 11 2012 05:12 MoonfireSpam wrote:On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote:This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play. the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers! Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did. What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans. To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan. People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants. For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing. Indeed. I don't care that Koreans win. I care that I don't get to see a single foreigner play in the main streams of premier tournaments. I think it's downright absurd for premier tournament organizers to say that Starcraft is a global game and that this is the best international tournament ever, and then bring out two dozen Korean contestants and call it a night. But I understand just the same that they have to do this to get sponsors and viewers. Koreans winning tournaments isn't hurting the game. Koreans taking practically every spot in the line-up of premier tournaments is. You are not going to convince sponsors and viewers that the game is global and that the competition is global when you end up with a line-up of 16 Koreans before the games begin. BW was that way, and no one thought BW was a global game. The foreigners got their chance but failed to qualify. What's the problem? It's far worse to give charity spots out based on nationality/skin color and have completely 1 sided stomp-fests.
It's not going to end up with one sided stomp-fests. Foreigners failed to qualify because it was 2-3 top foreigners vs. 10-15 Korean pros in the open qualifiers. Having equivalent skill doesn't help in that case.
|
On April 11 2012 06:01 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 05:55 MoonfireSpam wrote:On April 11 2012 05:52 Azarkon wrote:On April 11 2012 05:14 RageBot wrote:On April 11 2012 05:12 MoonfireSpam wrote:On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote:This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play. the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers! Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did. What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans. To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan. People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants. For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing. Indeed. I don't care that Koreans win. I care that I don't get to see a single foreigner play in the main streams of premier tournaments. I think it's downright absurd for premier tournament organizers to say that Starcraft is a global game and that this is the best international tournament ever, and then bring out two dozen Korean contestants and call it a night. But I understand just the same that they have to do this to get sponsors and viewers. Koreans winning tournaments isn't hurting the game. Koreans taking practically every spot in the line-up of premier tournaments is. You are not going to convince sponsors and viewers that the game is global and that the competition is global when you end up with a line-up of 16 Koreans before the games begin. BW was that way, and no one thought BW was a global game. It's not a global game. Thats the problem. Guess what! Excluding nationalities doesn't make it global either. How can you legitimise limiting entrants from one country but not another? (FYI im taking about IPL4 OB which probs had more USA than Koreans in it assuming that at least some of the unknowns in the OB were from USA, which is pretty likely). I don't know where you got the idea that regional qualifiers only limit entrants from Korea. They limit entrants from every region. Having Swedes take the Top 3 in a major tournament is a non-issue for me. Having every player in a major tournament be Swede, on the other hand, is an issue. I want to see global competition, and I think SC 2 still has it - but it's being killed.
Because at round one you have a field of 25% Koreans (yes I counted) and by RO16 you still something like 15/16 Koreans. (Open Bracket). However if you limit Korean entries, why would you still let more USA guys in? And how could you say it would not undermine the Open Bracket?
Now yes IPL4 fucked up the "regional" qualifiers big time. Sase should have been in Pools from the UK set and a NA only qualis would have been nice.
What you really want to ask is "Where were the "top" foreigners?" in the OB?
|
Make a REAL GSL Style tournament in an area of the US that LOVES starcraft.
Do not spend shit tons of money supporting the players(by giving them houses and shit, but advertise them of course), teams can do that themselves and they should.
Influence higher hours of PRACTICE for 1 matchup instead of trying to beat EVERYTHING all the time.
Build a localized scene for 1 area that other places want to replicate by making their own. DO NOT Expand globally, DO Allow the globe to watch their scene.
IE: Make a GSL in California(And when I say STARLEAGUE, I mean STARCRAFT LEAGUE), Get LIVE qualifiers, LIVE matches, make it an INVESTMENT for pros to go there but make it worth it.
You will LOSE money on the first event, but keep at it and promote it with good shit.
P.S. Don't hire the NASL Soundguy
P.P.S Profit from influenced performance and local heros.
|
On April 11 2012 06:01 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 05:55 MoonfireSpam wrote:On April 11 2012 05:52 Azarkon wrote:On April 11 2012 05:14 RageBot wrote:On April 11 2012 05:12 MoonfireSpam wrote:On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote:This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play. the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers! Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did. What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans. To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan. People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants. For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing. Indeed. I don't care that Koreans win. I care that I don't get to see a single foreigner play in the main streams of premier tournaments. I think it's downright absurd for premier tournament organizers to say that Starcraft is a global game and that this is the best international tournament ever, and then bring out two dozen Korean contestants and call it a night. But I understand just the same that they have to do this to get sponsors and viewers. Koreans winning tournaments isn't hurting the game. Koreans taking practically every spot in the line-up of premier tournaments is. You are not going to convince sponsors and viewers that the game is global and that the competition is global when you end up with a line-up of 16 Koreans before the games begin. BW was that way, and no one thought BW was a global game. It's not a global game. Thats the problem. Guess what! Excluding nationalities doesn't make it global either. How can you legitimise limiting entrants from one country but not another? (FYI im taking about IPL4 OB which probs had more USA than Koreans in it assuming that at least some of the unknowns in the OB were from USA, which is pretty likely). I don't know where you got the idea that regional qualifiers only limit entrants from Korea. They limit entrants from every region. Having Swedes take the Top 3 in a major tournament is a non-issue for me. Having every player in a major tournament be Swede, on the other hand, is an issue. I want to see global competition, and I think SC 2 still has it - but it's being killed.
It's getting killed because foreigners suck.
Look, you're making IPL out like foreigners all had to win open bracket and Koreans just got invited. That's not the case. Koreans had to FIRST WIN TOURNAMENTS by BEATING OUT FOREIGNERS. Okay? They had local tournaments where, despite having umpteenth foreigners, none except stephano could break through against the koreans. What does that tell you? Foreigners suck and Koreans legitimately deserved the top spots. Foreigners were given EVERY CHANCE to take the spots for pool play. Boo hoo they weren't invited to give a shitty showmatch.
And your example from Tennis shows just how little you take this into account. You stated that there was no tournament where it starts with everyone from one country. NEITHER DID IPL4. It just happened that the best came to the top, not through one tournament, but two. Koreans happened to be the best. That's analogous to Federer, Djokovic, Nadal, and Murray coming out on top. Everyone was allowed to compete IN BOTH SITUATIONS. It just happened that the dominant ones came out on top IN BOTH SITUATIONS. Let's also look at the fact that tennis happened to be declining in the US. Does the article say that the US Open is now banning Swedes, Spanish, Serbs, and English? Or does it say that the US needed more skilled player and that a lack of talent and skill was the problem?
|
I love how you guys think "caring" about this nonsense is going to change anything. The only people that matter and should care are the players and the teams (and their sponsers obv). You guys can cry and moan and whine all you want; you can say "they should do this and that and the other thing" as many times as you want, but that wont change anything.
Do you think saying "wow I cant believe all the foreigners are losing every tournament" is going to help in any way at all? Also, do you think anyone except for you and/or your little group of angry pitch fork carrying farmers cares about your opinions?
If you cant accept that the best players, regardless of their race or country, will always rise to the top then just stop watching sc2, esports isnt going to *die* because the 150 or so angry nerds stop watching. The best korean players ever arent going to throw games because the angry or annoyed non-korean fans are up in arms.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
