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On April 11 2012 05:22 MoonfireSpam wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 05:14 RageBot wrote:On April 11 2012 05:12 MoonfireSpam wrote:On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote:This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play. the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers! Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did. What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans. To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come  Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan. People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants. For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing. As for choosing what to match to show, that is a valid point, and one that future tourney organisers should definately consider and I agree that they should not necessarily focus on Koreans all the time. I dont think you can stop Korean top 8 finishes though. For example, would you limit the number of American entrants into the open bracket?
Due to the fact that the main in-venue audience of MLG is americans, I think that it is in their best benefit to have as many american players as they can, so that there may be a breakout like Ostoijy or Scarlett.
When there are enough american players who can compete with Koreans, maybe that will be the time to stop limiting Koreans.
And MLG Orlando and Providence showed that an all-Korean top 8 isn't a certainty, just a high probability.
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On April 11 2012 06:03 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 05:58 oxxo wrote:On April 11 2012 05:52 Azarkon wrote:On April 11 2012 05:14 RageBot wrote:On April 11 2012 05:12 MoonfireSpam wrote:On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote:This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play. the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers! Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did. What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans. To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan. People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants. For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing. Indeed. I don't care that Koreans win. I care that I don't get to see a single foreigner play in the main streams of premier tournaments. I think it's downright absurd for premier tournament organizers to say that Starcraft is a global game and that this is the best international tournament ever, and then bring out two dozen Korean contestants and call it a night. But I understand just the same that they have to do this to get sponsors and viewers. Koreans winning tournaments isn't hurting the game. Koreans taking practically every spot in the line-up of premier tournaments is. You are not going to convince sponsors and viewers that the game is global and that the competition is global when you end up with a line-up of 16 Koreans before the games begin. BW was that way, and no one thought BW was a global game. The foreigners got their chance but failed to qualify. What's the problem? It's far worse to give charity spots out based on nationality/skin color and have completely 1 sided stomp-fests. It's not going to end up with one sided stomp-fests. Foreigners failed to qualify because it was 2-3 top foreigners vs. 10-15 Korean pros in the open qualifiers. Having equivalent skill doesn't help in that case.
No, not it was not.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IGN_ProLeague_Season_4/UK_Qualifiers How many koreans do you count? How many foreigners?
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IGN_ProLeague_Season_4/Online_Qualifier_1 Count again.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IGN_ProLeague_Season_4/Online_Qualifier_2 And once more.
You know what the problem is? It's not that there are too many koreans. It's that foreigners can't win against koreans because they need to practice more/harder/more efficiently.
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This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events.
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On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote:
This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events.
WORSE?
What's wrong with Koreans?
This thread is getting more and more racist by the minute.
"Let's ban Korean players because they're so much better than us." That'll make a good example of e-sports and competition in general.
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On April 11 2012 05:47 Bashion wrote:
Ok.
Lets think for a second. Foreigner tournaments ban Koreans like some of you want. Then, hypothetically, Swedes start to win everything. Should they receive the same treatment? Will American tourneys limit the number of players from Sweden or ban them just like they did with Koreans?
People will come up with the same BS. "i dont wanna watch Europeans, i wanna watch Americans! USAUSAUSA!"
Or if Americans start to win every tournament, should European events start to ban them too?
I think you meant "limit", not "ban", there's a difference between the two.
Now, the problem in Koreans dominating, as opposed to europeans or americans have already been stated.
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I've never understood why people care more about ethnicity (or in this case: nationality) than overall quality of games.
Why would you ever care if the guy is white, yellow or brown-ish as long as he delivers great games?
I'm always puzzled when seeing comments like:
"When the foreigner hope is out of the tournament, I stop watching.", as if the games were getting worse when the white guys got their asses handed to them once more.
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Actually, guys, guys, I have an idea. You know that if you play cross server at atrocious times with incredible amounts of lag for Koreans, foreigners will get an unfair advantage and finally be able to take games off any korean player. This way, foreigners can win against koreans and there will be less koreans in the tournaments. Perfect solution right? Let's hold all tournaments as online, cross-server, 3am korean time tournaments. How much more exciting it'll be than IPL4!!! What marvelous play we'll see! What incredible hype we'll feel! My god! Please take me up on this modest proposal, tournament planners!
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On April 11 2012 06:12 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 06:03 Azarkon wrote:On April 11 2012 05:58 oxxo wrote:On April 11 2012 05:52 Azarkon wrote:On April 11 2012 05:14 RageBot wrote:On April 11 2012 05:12 MoonfireSpam wrote:On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote:This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play. the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers! Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did. What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans. To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan. People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants. For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing. Indeed. I don't care that Koreans win. I care that I don't get to see a single foreigner play in the main streams of premier tournaments. I think it's downright absurd for premier tournament organizers to say that Starcraft is a global game and that this is the best international tournament ever, and then bring out two dozen Korean contestants and call it a night. But I understand just the same that they have to do this to get sponsors and viewers. Koreans winning tournaments isn't hurting the game. Koreans taking practically every spot in the line-up of premier tournaments is. You are not going to convince sponsors and viewers that the game is global and that the competition is global when you end up with a line-up of 16 Koreans before the games begin. BW was that way, and no one thought BW was a global game. The foreigners got their chance but failed to qualify. What's the problem? It's far worse to give charity spots out based on nationality/skin color and have completely 1 sided stomp-fests. It's not going to end up with one sided stomp-fests. Foreigners failed to qualify because it was 2-3 top foreigners vs. 10-15 Korean pros in the open qualifiers. Having equivalent skill doesn't help in that case. No, not it was not. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IGN_ProLeague_Season_4/UK_Qualifiers How many koreans do you count? How many foreigners? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IGN_ProLeague_Season_4/Online_Qualifier_1 Count again. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IGN_ProLeague_Season_4/Online_Qualifier_2 And once more. You know what the problem is? It's not that there are too many koreans. It's that foreigners can't win against koreans because they need to practice more/harder/more efficiently.
When he said "top" he meant Stephano, Sase, Naniwa, Huk and... maybe 2-3 other foreigners.
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On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote:
This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events.
I hope the Stephano's of the world, the talented foreign players, are the only ones that ever have any success for the foreign players. I like most of the non-koreans as people, I think some of them have very entertaining personalities, especially on camera, but most of them just need to move on from pro gaming unless they see some moderate success in the near future. Either that or just dont put them on the main stage. I dont want to see bad games. All i ask for is the best players vs the other best players because more often than not, they provide the most entertaining games. The IPL semi finals and finals were some of the scrappiest games ive ever seen and I only see that from korean players.
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On April 11 2012 06:17 kafkaesque wrote:
I've never understood why people care more about ethnicity (or in this case: nationality) than overall quality of games.
Why would you ever care if the guy is white, yellow or brown-ish as long as he delivers great games?
I'm always puzzled when seeing comments like:
"When the foreigner hope is out of the tournament, I stop watching.", as if the games were getting worse when the white guys got their asses handed to them once more.
You keep looking at this through the mind of someone on TL. Most people on Tl have generally been a fan of Korean SC for awhile. For a lot of us this isn't a big deal if we see only Koreans because most of TL only wants quality.
Thing is TL is still a niche audience. If you want the scene to grow you need players that a broader audience can relate to and cheer for. That's just the way it works. I hate to tell you this, but it DOES matter to A LOT of people.
I personally think that foreign players just need to get better if winning is their goal. It's not the fault of the Koreans that they are better at the game. Foreigners have the same potential to be good at the game if they have the same structure to support them.
Also it's a myth that Progamers are revered in Korea. The very very good ones are(and I'm talking bonjwa level good...like Flash, Bisu, Nada etc.) but most are never heard of, crammed in a team house with a really low pay if any at all. The willingness to do that, however, also separated them from foreign players. I don't know, it seems like a different sort of dedication.
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On April 11 2012 06:15 Pantythief wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote:
This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events. WORSE? What's wrong with Koreans? This thread is getting more and more racist by the minute. "Let's ban Korean players because they're so much better than us." That'll make a good example of e-sports and competition in general.
Mods should seriously ban every person who calls another one racist on this thread.
If I change the word "Korean" to "People who can't speak english, are completely shy and are an uninteresting personality with usually boring, although mechanically precise gameplay" is that okay? Even if 99% of all the Korean players fall into this category?
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On April 11 2012 06:21 ishyishy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote:
This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events. I hope the Stephano's of the world, the talented foreign players, are the only ones that ever have any success for the foreign players. I like most of the non-koreans as people, I think some of them have very entertaining personalities, especially on camera, but most of them just need to move on from pro gaming unless they see some moderate success in the near future. Either that or just dont put them on the main stage. I dont want to see bad games. All i ask for is the best players vs the other best players because more often than not, they provide the most entertaining games. The IPL semi finals and finals were some of the scrappiest games ive ever seen and I only see that from korean players.
Honestly, I think using the final matches of IPL 4 as a demonstration of the superior quality of play by Koreans is rather deluded. From nestea vs squirtle and forward it was coin-flip all-in every second game..
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On April 11 2012 06:12 RageBot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 05:22 MoonfireSpam wrote:On April 11 2012 05:14 RageBot wrote:On April 11 2012 05:12 MoonfireSpam wrote:On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote:This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play. the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers! Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did. What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans. To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan. People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants. For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing. As for choosing what to match to show, that is a valid point, and one that future tourney organisers should definately consider and I agree that they should not necessarily focus on Koreans all the time. I dont think you can stop Korean top 8 finishes though. For example, would you limit the number of American entrants into the open bracket? Due to the fact that the main in-venue audience of MLG is americans, I think that it is in their best benefit to have as many american players as they can, so that there may be a breakout like Ostoijy or Scarlett. When there are enough american players who can compete with Koreans, maybe that will be the time to stop limiting Koreans. And MLG Orlando and Providence showed that an all-Korean top 8 isn't a certainty, just a high probability.
So you would limit Koreans but not Americans?
Would you fix the draw so that Koreans knock each other out early?
Given MLG Orlando and Providence, do foreigners need a crutch?
I don't argue that hero stories are great a la Scarlett or entertaining the possibility of Nony winning something. My main irk is that people could and are considering biasing a tournament so this is more likely to happen. Doing that in a fair way e.g. 5 Koreans, 5 Americans, 5 Cubans etc. is all happy, doing it in an unfair way e.g. 1 Korean blindfolded, juggling flaming axes while trying to perform cunnilingus vs 100 Americans with maphack vs 100 Europeans being able to hear commentry is not cool.
That's an obvious exaggeration and I'm not saying you want that, but it's a feeling I kinda get in some posts.
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On April 11 2012 06:22 RageBot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 06:15 Pantythief wrote:On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote:
This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events. WORSE? What's wrong with Koreans? This thread is getting more and more racist by the minute. "Let's ban Korean players because they're so much better than us." That'll make a good example of e-sports and competition in general. Mods should seriously ban every person who calls another one racist on this thread. If I change the word "Korean" to "People who can't speak english, are completely shy and are an uninteresting personality with usually boring, although mechanically precise gameplay" is that okay? Even if 99% of all the Korean players fall into this category?
I love how you perpetuate incorrect stereotypes.
I guess all Chinese people study hard, want to be a doctor or lawyer, have a 4.0 GPA, are world-level at math, and have tiny eyes.Would it be alright to say that just those people shouldn't participate in tournaments even though 99% of all Chinese people fall into this category? I guess all black people have guns, commit crimes, wear hoodies, and are deviants. Is it alright if I change my description of black to that even though 99% of black people fall into this category?
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On April 11 2012 06:22 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 06:17 kafkaesque wrote:
I've never understood why people care more about ethnicity (or in this case: nationality) than overall quality of games.
Why would you ever care if the guy is white, yellow or brown-ish as long as he delivers great games?
I'm always puzzled when seeing comments like:
"When the foreigner hope is out of the tournament, I stop watching.", as if the games were getting worse when the white guys got their asses handed to them once more.
You keep looking at this through the mind of someone on TL. Most people on Tl have generally been a fan of Korean SC for awhile. For a lot of us this isn't a big deal if we see only Koreans because most of TL only wants quality. Thing is TL is still a niche audience. If you want the scene to grow you need players that a broader audience can relate to and cheer for. That's just the way it works. I hate to tell you this, but it DOES matter to A LOT of people. I personally think that foreign players just need to get better if winning is their goal. It's not the fault of the Koreans that they are better at the game. Foreigners have the same potential to be good at the game if they have the same structure to support them. Also it's a myth that Progamers are revered in Korea. The very very good ones are(and I'm talking bonjwa level good...like Flash, Bisu, Nada etc.) but most are never heard of, crammed in a team house with a really low pay if any at all. The willingness to do that, however, also separated them from foreign players. I don't know, it seems like a different sort of dedication.
For one who has shit for honor, this reply made a lot of sense.
Maybe I'm biased in that I don't want the competition to cheapen for the sake of growing the community.
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On April 11 2012 06:23 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 06:21 ishyishy wrote:On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote:
This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events. I hope the Stephano's of the world, the talented foreign players, are the only ones that ever have any success for the foreign players. I like most of the non-koreans as people, I think some of them have very entertaining personalities, especially on camera, but most of them just need to move on from pro gaming unless they see some moderate success in the near future. Either that or just dont put them on the main stage. I dont want to see bad games. All i ask for is the best players vs the other best players because more often than not, they provide the most entertaining games. The IPL semi finals and finals were some of the scrappiest games ive ever seen and I only see that from korean players. Honestly, I think using the final matches of IPL 4 as a demonstration of the superior quality of play by Koreans is rather deluded. From nestea vs squirtle and forward it was coin-flip all-in every second game..
I didnt mean for you to think I said this was an "example of superior play" ...I said koreans provide the most entertaining games for me, and I doubt that I'm the only one that feels that way lol.
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On April 11 2012 06:22 RageBot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 06:15 Pantythief wrote:On April 11 2012 06:13 yourself2k8 wrote:
This will surely only be made worse once/if KeSPA players move over to SC2. I'd be more concerned about what will happen when that swap happens than how things are now, but I guess you have to start somewhere. At least now foreigners can compete with the koreans. Nestea has said a few times that once the rest of the BW scene switches there will be another tier of play in SC2. Unless the KeSPA players are yet again not allowed to travel to foreign events. WORSE? What's wrong with Koreans? This thread is getting more and more racist by the minute. "Let's ban Korean players because they're so much better than us." That'll make a good example of e-sports and competition in general. Mods should seriously ban every person who calls another one racist on this thread. If I change the word "Korean" to "People who can't speak english, are completely shy and are an uninteresting personality with usually boring, although mechanically precise gameplay" is that okay? Even if 99% of all the Korean players fall into this category?
Even better. Mods should close this thread, because clearly you can't control this.
In case you haven't already noticed, this thread isn't about "people who can't speak English, are completely shy and are an uninteresting personality with usually boring, although mechically precise gameplay" as you quite 'racistly' described Koreans, this thread is about "Koreans" dominating the pro-scene because they're "Koreans." If people looked past the obvious, and started to accept that they're simply people playing this game better than us, then there would be no problem in the first place. If you don't like the fact that they're dominating the scene because they're Korean, then why are you complaining?
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Survival of the fittest.
The strong survives while the weak gets eliminated unless they evolve to adapt to the enviroment.
In this case, Koreans are the strong ones, the foreigners are the weak one. Foreigners will always get behind and lose to the Koreans if they do not 1) train harder, 2) train harder and 3) train harder.
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On April 11 2012 06:25 MoonfireSpam wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 06:12 RageBot wrote:On April 11 2012 05:22 MoonfireSpam wrote:On April 11 2012 05:14 RageBot wrote:On April 11 2012 05:12 MoonfireSpam wrote:On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote:This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play. the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers! Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did. What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans. To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan. People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants. For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing. As for choosing what to match to show, that is a valid point, and one that future tourney organisers should definately consider and I agree that they should not necessarily focus on Koreans all the time. I dont think you can stop Korean top 8 finishes though. For example, would you limit the number of American entrants into the open bracket? Due to the fact that the main in-venue audience of MLG is americans, I think that it is in their best benefit to have as many american players as they can, so that there may be a breakout like Ostoijy or Scarlett. When there are enough american players who can compete with Koreans, maybe that will be the time to stop limiting Koreans. And MLG Orlando and Providence showed that an all-Korean top 8 isn't a certainty, just a high probability. So you would limit Koreans but not Americans? Would you fix the draw so that Koreans knock each other out early? Given MLG Orlando and Providence, do foreigners need a crutch? I don't argue that hero stories are great a la Scarlett or entertaining the possibility of Nony winning something. My main irk is that people could and are considering biasing a tournament so this is more likely to happen. Doing that in a fair way e.g. 5 Koreans, 5 Americans, 5 Cubans etc. is all happy, doing it in an unfair way e.g. 1 Korean blindfolded, juggling flaming axes while trying to perform cunnilingus vs 100 Americans with maphack vs 100 Europeans being able to hear commentry is not cool. That's an obvious exaggeration and I'm not saying you want that, but it's a feeling I kinda get in some posts.
-Yes, for now I would limit Koreans and not Americans.
-No, I wouldn't fix the draw, the Koreans are there for the "Korea vs the world" storyline, if anything I would fix the draw so that if they keep on winning, all of the Koreans would reach top 16 before running into each other.
-Foreigner viewers want to see less Koreans, but what the foreigner players actually need is amateur leagues, without invites, so that up and coming players could invest more and more of their time into the game until they break out on one of the big leagues (kind of Thorzain and Nani on TSL3).
And actually, I think that limiting Koreans for a year, while improving foreign infrastracture can lead to a situation in which the limit is no longer needed in around a year or so.
And i've already stated, I am not indifferent to all of the Koreans, I actually really like DRG, MKP MC and Genius (due to their personalities), the only player that i'm a fan of his playstyle is MMA..
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EPT
