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On April 11 2012 04:13 Maekchu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 04:01 Azarkon wrote:On April 11 2012 03:52 Maekchu wrote:On April 11 2012 03:46 Azarkon wrote:On April 11 2012 03:40 fishjie wrote:
people want to see the best players play. Except they don't. Plenty of top level Korean pro-gamers stream nowadays - yet their stream numbers are not in the ballpark of popular foreigner players - ie IdrA, Stephano, White-Ra, TLO, etc. Tyler gets bigger numbers when he streams than Code S Koreans - what do you think about that? So by your logic, if two platinum players had higher stream viewers than two GM players, you'd prefer to watch them play? In tournaments, I definetly say we want to see the best of the best. It's really simple, the best wins. And that's why limiting tournaments just because Koreans are better is really an ackward argument. Even if they don't have as big a follower group as us, we still want to see the best in the bigger tournaments. Also, many of those players you have mentioned have been streaming a very long time, thus enabling them to gather a very big group of followers. Don't say we when you mean me. Tournaments and streams are two sides of the same coin - you don't go from watching IdrA stream to not watching him in tournaments. Fans follow players, which is why a tournament featuring IdrA crushing a bunch of Platinums gets a huge number of views, but a bunch of Platinums crushing each other gets none. First of all you didn't really answer my question. Second, yes I used "we", because if I made a poll I'm pretty sure the majority of the Starcraft community would prefer to watch the best of the best in the major tournaments instead of watching two mediocre players. Also, you can follow your national "hero" in a tournament but that doesn't mean you cannot enjoy the rest of it just because your "hero" didn't win it all. For example, when Denmark enters the World Cup, I don't expect them to win (even though it would be nice), yet I can still watch the finals even though Denmark is not playing.
First, your question was inane, but in the case that platinum players are what people want to see, then yes - tournaments have to involve them in the players list.
Second, polls on TL are not a proper sampling of the SC 2 viewer base. Post it on reddit, and ask - Who do you want to see in the next MLG, given that you are able to pick only one? with the choices being DRG, Nestea, Life, Symbol, Curious, IdrA, and Stephano, then see what you get.
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United States15275 Posts
On April 11 2012 04:26 Caladbolg wrote:
Sports thrive on a local scene because they need physical presence in that particular scene. The players, despite their training, are also figures in a community that everyone in a town has probably seen or met at least once. This doesn't quite ring true for computer games, because of the nature of the internet. Thus, physical sports will always be more "localized" than computer games.
The problem with this rationalization is that it is not how the human brain works. Look at the main reasons why people support HuK, Stephano, Naniwa, etc. in this very thread: they are actually pretty goddamn weak in terms of being the building blocks of an industry. Liking a player because he speaks English and is remotely similar to you is a far weaker motivation than liking a player because he lives in your area, plays for your college/university, and represents something intimate beyond a conflict at the international level. Like it or not this type of identification drives the fandom of every sport.
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On April 11 2012 03:43 RageBot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 03:39 MoonfireSpam wrote:On April 11 2012 03:37 RageBot wrote:On April 11 2012 03:34 MoonfireSpam wrote:
So if black guys were better at basketball, would you ban them? Korean = Country. Black People = Race. And, guess what, most people worldwide don't watch NBA as much as they watch their own local leagues. Point taken. Can hate on countries. Can you try and explain to me, in your words, what the people who are "anti-korean" actually say, and not your twisted, strawman version of what you think they say? I just want to see if you are actually trying to understand us or not.
The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327880¤tpage=30#582
Mostly I'm throwing that arguement out there to make people consider how if you switch "Korean" with "Muslim", "Woman" or "Jew" it becomes a pretty discriminatory comment. Now it's cool that people support their guys, but when it becomes "How can I make sure my man goes balls deep into this tourney?" it's crap.
I do get that National or Regional caps would make for a potentially awesome tournament with local qualfiers run over a decent number of games. For example a "UEFA Champions League" format would be good and probably work really well and be a huge success by EU / NA / Korea / SEA + Aus / World divisions or something. Can you do that for every tournament? No.
Anyways, in the Open Bracket for IPL4 25% were Korean, which really isn't that big a majority. Actually it isn't a majority. The problem is that the other 75% got shitted on so that by the Quarter Finals in Winners bracket you are down to almost all Koreans. No format can really stop that happening.
What they could have done is to make regional qualis actually regional so you at least seed foreigners into pool play, which is a change I would have approved of. What is a shitty thing to do is to cap nationality in an Open Bracket. On a national scale, I don't think I can name 5 players from the same country outside of Sweden, US and Canada.
In finishing, IPL4 was an international tourney until the Quater Finals of open bracket, Koreans just dominated.
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Yes, instead of maybe pressuring our 'pros' to practice harder and keep up with the Koreans, lets discuss banning/limiting Koreans from coming to our tournaments. Because nobody wants to see the best games possible at a big tournament right?
This is kind of pathetic if you really take a step back and think about it. If you can't get past the fact a certain group of people are better then you are not really a fan of SC2, You are a fan of your country/foreigners. Which is fine, but don't try and stop fans of SC2 from getting the best quality games just because you want to root for your 'home' team.
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On April 11 2012 02:34 YodaGoneMad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 02:26 Sein wrote:On April 11 2012 02:09 YodaGoneMad wrote:On April 11 2012 02:00 Sein wrote:On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote:
Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO.
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything.
For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching?
Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time. Who are the "hometown heroes" for you? Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win. The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans. Where would the guys like Polt, Moon, Lyn, Cella fit? They "speak passable English", but they don't fit into "anyone but a Korean" criteria. Only one I have heard of is Cella, he is a pretty cool guy and I would be invested in watching him win. As far as I know he hasn't been a contender in any recent tournies?
...Really? You haven't heard of Polt and Moon?
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On April 11 2012 04:29 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 04:13 Maekchu wrote:On April 11 2012 04:01 Azarkon wrote:On April 11 2012 03:52 Maekchu wrote:On April 11 2012 03:46 Azarkon wrote:On April 11 2012 03:40 fishjie wrote:
people want to see the best players play. Except they don't. Plenty of top level Korean pro-gamers stream nowadays - yet their stream numbers are not in the ballpark of popular foreigner players - ie IdrA, Stephano, White-Ra, TLO, etc. Tyler gets bigger numbers when he streams than Code S Koreans - what do you think about that? So by your logic, if two platinum players had higher stream viewers than two GM players, you'd prefer to watch them play? In tournaments, I definetly say we want to see the best of the best. It's really simple, the best wins. And that's why limiting tournaments just because Koreans are better is really an ackward argument. Even if they don't have as big a follower group as us, we still want to see the best in the bigger tournaments. Also, many of those players you have mentioned have been streaming a very long time, thus enabling them to gather a very big group of followers. Don't say we when you mean me. Tournaments and streams are two sides of the same coin - you don't go from watching IdrA stream to not watching him in tournaments. Fans follow players, which is why a tournament featuring IdrA crushing a bunch of Platinums gets a huge number of views, but a bunch of Platinums crushing each other gets none. First of all you didn't really answer my question. Second, yes I used "we", because if I made a poll I'm pretty sure the majority of the Starcraft community would prefer to watch the best of the best in the major tournaments instead of watching two mediocre players. Also, you can follow your national "hero" in a tournament but that doesn't mean you cannot enjoy the rest of it just because your "hero" didn't win it all. For example, when Denmark enters the World Cup, I don't expect them to win (even though it would be nice), yet I can still watch the finals even though Denmark is not playing. First, your question was inane, but in the case that platinum players are what people want to see, then yes - tournaments have to involve them in the players list. Second, polls on TL are not a proper sampling of the SC 2 viewer base. Post it on reddit, and ask - Who do you want to see in the next MLG, given that you are able to pick only one? with the choices being DRG, Nestea, Life, Symbol, Curious, IdrA, and Stephano, then see what you get.
The question Who do you want to see in the next MLG, given that you are able to pick only one?, is not the same as the example I gave above. Obviously people want to watch their favorite player, but sometimes that player is not the best and does not deserve to participate in or win a tournament.
A question like What should be the major factor for advancing in a tournament? Skill or popularity?, is actually more what I'm asking about. And as far as my own opinion goes, I have to say in major tournaments skill should be the deciding and only factor that influences how players progress.
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this is all about entertainment. And it seems like SC2 is more western oriented than BW, Korean Oriented. In terms of
marketability, foreign tournaments(IEM, IPL, MLG), and more foreign Teams. But to make SC2 grow, I tend to agree
that growth will come from Foreigner interest in foreigner players.
It would be great if Flash and Bisu could become worldwide superstars of SC2 Hots, and have fans
adoring them over Huk and Idra. But clearly, there will be more viewers on streams and more interest in buying
aparrel for Huk and Idra than say SK Bisu or KT Flash. If Blizzard is serious about making SC2 grow, I would say
that limiting Korean participation would be one avenue or option to explore. GSL can still be for Koreans, and the prize pool can increase to 100,000 for the winner. But the world wide tournaments need to be more foreigner involved
to get the eyes on the streams.
I think SC2 would also grow if Blizzard sold SC2 for free around the world. And then make their money through
advertisements online and through online tournaments in my estimation. That would REALLY
elevate SC2's popularity all around the freaking world. Then you will have the best of the best, and not just Korea,
truly compete in a global game/sport.
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It's not even 'practicing harder' per se. What seems to be a big issue is the mindset behind practicing certain aspects of the game. Korean cheese versus foreign cheese probably has a larger gap to it than mid to late game management. It is more apparent late game because we can see the split in attention rather largely, but foreigner micro for the most part lags behind Korean counterparts. I think that "macro macro macro" mindset hurts our pros and it bleeds down to lower levels because that's what's being communicated and taught for the most part. Additionally, I think foreigners are missing that sort of ruthless efficiency from using unts to harass, scout, defend, and attack that Koreans seem to exhibit at all stages of the game, which again is related to a micro/control issue.
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On April 11 2012 04:06 RageBot wrote:
It should go like this:
Premier league - GSL, with no Foreign seeds.
Major leagues - DH, IEM, MLG, IPL and so on, allow Koreans but limit them to around 8.
Minor tournemants - like the gathering and so on, it wouldn't matter if you ban Koreans or not because they won't come anyway.
Dailies/Weeklies - Like Playhem, Go4SC2, should be region based, AKA, no Koreans in NA Playhem, because that stunts the growth of local players.
IEM has already region based qualifiers and Dreamhack doesn't have a huge number of Koreans. And even at MLG the number of Koreans is not that huge as people make it sound.
The reason why so many Koreans where at IPL 4 is that IPL paid for them to visit the GSTL Finals. Without that we wouldn't see this amount of Koreans players.
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On April 11 2012 04:22 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 04:08 ladyumbra wrote:On April 11 2012 02:22 RageBot wrote:On April 11 2012 00:55 ladyumbra wrote:On April 10 2012 23:46 RageBot wrote:
I find it hilarious, not a single person of the "pro-korean" posters have said anything about the actual points of the "anti-korean" posters.
You just blame us for being "racist", say stuff like "we should work harder" (while you are never part of that "we" since you are just a guy posting in TL without a hint of SC2 skill), you don't realize that we (the "casual" fans) are the majority (check out the voting on HuK vs Heart on the last MLG).
You also seem to be uncapable of realizing that we don't wish to ban Koreans altogether, we just don't want 30+ Koreans in a tournemant. Ok lets try this. concern 1 . We can't relate to the koreans ! * Already disproven by multiple people in multiple posts. It is entirely possible to relate to people outside your own culture. NA probably has the largest casual fanbase and the least Pros capable of showing off impressive games. Chances are the last foreigner in a tournament will be european and/ or currently training in korea. Most of the time the primary language of that player will not be english. Even if they speak english it will not always be entirely smooth becuase of different grammar structures etc (ex. naniwa. white-ra, stephano). While not racist saying " I only want to cheer for people who're like me" is certainly predjudiced and false since the average new yorker probably has nothing in common with Mana or Bling or Kas etc. Casual fans like that are creating their own boundaries on who they feel they can relate to. If we suddenly get a slew of foreign pros from idk south america who can win major tournaments but need a translator because they don't speak english I highly doubt they will be embraced by all. The world VS korea nonsense gives an illusion of a united western scene but such a thing does not exist. Concern 2. We want to see a variety of players ! * So do I, which means not seeing the same few foreign hopes trotted out at every tournament. However that requires the pro scenes of different regions to produce players who can actually qualify for events. . Limiting how many players can come from each region will almost always lead to only the same players coming from each region. Even if you hold qualifiers, NA will almost always end up being HuK, Idra, Select etc. EU would have to split into mini regions but would predictaly be a zerg like ret, morrow or nerchio, a toss like Naniwa, Mana or Sase, and a terran like Thorzain, Tarson or Kas. Korea would actually have the most fluid roster since they have a wider amount of top level pros who can all beat each other on any given day. Also the scene is currently not set up to have such a system because all our tournaments are run by different leagues. It'd be awkward if one league introduced region limits and others didn't. Then you basically split the fanbase between those who want equal representation and those who want to see the best play out of people who legit earned thier way into a tournament. teams then also have to choose which competitions to send their players too and how that looks to the general public. Plus you know most foreign teams have atleast one korean player now, I'm sure it'd be great if liquid was like " Hey guys we're taking everyone to mlg for open bracket but um Hero and Zenio and Taeja becuase you see we can't have too many koreans." Concern 3 All koreans is boring to watch! * This is subjective and it depends on the players in question. If you fill a tournament with drg, mc, mma, mkp etc even casual people will like it becuase they like those players and their playstyles. Concern 4 We can't qualify becuase we can't get through open bracket! * Tough cookies, a qualifier like open bracket weeds out the weak, if foreign players can't get through then they didn't deserve to be there anyways. How many god damned times did people bitch about incontrol going 0-5 in groups at mlg because he could not keep up with what was still mostly just other foreign players and a handful of koreans. Limiting how many koreans can play in qualifers and open brackets would only lead to more awkward situations where someone undeserving makes it to groups and gets facerolled. Huk and Sase almost made it to pool play at IPl4 and they took down several koreans to do so. If we redid that open bracket multiple times there's a good chance some of those times they'd get through becuase they've proven capable of consistent high level play. However this time they failed, it's not the end of the world. concern 5. There are more casual fans we deserve to be the biggest voice! * Dosen't matter, especially as tournaments move towards more sustainable revenue types. Hardcore watchers are more likely to pay for HD, vods, multiple cameras so they can watch from a pros pov etc. Being the majority does not make you more important and doesn't even garuntee that you contribute the most to the community despite having more people to do so with. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327880¤tpage=28#548Here are some actualy numbers, not your opinion based on a vocal part (maybe majority, maybe not) of a site that at most includes 25% of the SC2 viewerbase (probably around 10%, during IPL4 there were 180,000 live views on the streams while only 17,000 people were on TL). I'm unsure as to your point here. I know people like watching foreigners. I like watching and cheering for foreigners. That still doesn't tell me why tournaments should start doing region limiting for all the reasons I pointed out before. It's going to limit variety more than we already get, it puts teams in awkward situations etc etc. Wanting more visible foreign players is not a problematic view. Attempting to enforce it via region limiting is, especially when the majority of the money is in big international tournaments. Honestly a more unified and organized starcraft scene is needed to sort this thing out. There needs to be more tournaments at the local level that allow players to compete for fame within their region more readily. HellI think betwen gsl, ksl and esv weeklies korea may have the most steady group of recurring tournaments that keep players active and motivated. More stuff like that would appeal to casual watchers and be on at better hours for each locale. Big tournaments though I still feel those should be merit based. It may suck to see Huk fall short of pool play but I just can't honestly say I feel comfortable letting in weaker players over stronger ones. Does it not invalidate a win a little when you know you didn't face as hard a challenge as you could have. even idra was less proud of his iem win where all he faced was puma then his orlando placement where he went toe to toe with bomber and came out ahead. Also an IP4 situation is not likely to happen again. Korean teams do not have the money to fly out thier whole team to play in open brakcets whenever they want. there is already naturally limiting factors to how many korean players will be at any given tournament. Region limiting tournaments has a number of positives and negatives. Lowering diversity is not, however, one of its negatives. Region limiting has the following effects on tournament organization: * It promotes diversity. Having 16 Koreans is not diversity. Having 4 Koreans, 4 Americans, 4 Europeans, and 4 Southeast Asians is diversity. * It lowers costs. With 16 Koreans, tournament organizers in NA and EU have to intercontinentally fly in every single one of its players. With 4 Americans, however, they don't. * It gives viewers all over the world home favorites to cheer for, and gives a global feel to the event. It has the following drawbacks: * It lowers the average level of play. * It is not strictly meritocratic. A middle ground solution for major weekend tournaments is, I think, to reserve a larger number of spots for Koreans - ie 30-40% instead of 25% - and to structure brackets such that Korean vs. foreigner matches happen throughout the course of the weekend.
How do you do that and be fair to players and teams ? If say mlg said ok only 8 koreans can enter the open bracket for the next mlg how do they decide who gets in. Is it just whoever signs up first? Then basically you're going to have teams always constantly watching tournaments to see when registration opens and one korean team or one foreign team with many koreans could grab all the spots. If you limit one korean per team then teams now have to decide who to bring to each event etc. Plus it looks awkward as hell if only koreans are being limited like bring all the swedes you want on your team but only one korean, becuase that won't cause problems with interteam relations. Limiting people from every region in open bracket makes things even more of a pain in the ass depending on how big the bracket is and how many people from certain area can come.
Invite only spots are less problematic because tournaments can jusitfy inviting whoever the hell they want and are already filtering based on getting good racial diversity.
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when foreign's start to play 8-10 hours on pratice mode(not laddering) the gap will be substantial closing.
korean way of training is somewhat uber comparing with the foreigns ones ....
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On April 11 2012 02:07 Fueled wrote:Show nested quote +Wow, and intelligent post. Amazing.
Sure, their are similarities. But the differences are huge. When have you seen a woman begging for a man with a gamers body instead of an athletes. How many job interviews are impressed with "70-100 hours a week" gaming? How many people in the world can even relate to a SC2 player? How many impressive leadership skills have you seen? How many jobs are there in the SC2 former player catagory? Have you seen heard these 12 hour / day korean gamers.
I mean, even the most dedicated athlete has some personal time. However, it seems like every fan wants the players to turn into some sort of 14 hour a day zombie robot that only play SC2. I honestly feel guilty watching these games now. Its a whole different ball game in the Korean scene. Pro gamers over there are treated like celebrities, its just that the majority of them aren't getting paid enough. What you are saying though mostly applies to the foreign scene. Its because the majority of people outside of pro gaming see it as a waste of time and don't take it serious. I remember watching a Stephano interview and him saying that his mother wasn't happy that he got into pro gaming. That was of course until he won his first major prized tournament and it changed her viewing of it. Heck, Idra gave up a scholarship to college to persue his pro gaming career. Look at him now, no college degree, but making a six figure income. People outside of the gaming world in the foreign scene need to wake up and see that there's a boat load of money in this industry and that people are and can make a living off it.
This post is so awesome it hurts. Guess what, Korean pro gamers are not treated like celebrities. They are paid nothing, packed in a house with 20 other people, and told to play a single computer game 14 hours straight every day for the rest of the adolescent and young adult life. I'm not sure how celebrities are treated in your world.
They have limited contact with the real world and how things work. Most of them haven't had a real job and have no social & professional skills, leadership ability or anything other than playing a single computer game. There are very few opportunities out there for players who've essentially done nothing with their lives.
So I'll see your Idra and raise you reality. Your idea of boat load of money and celebrity status is different than mine. Most of the winners in IPL4 wouldn't be able to pay for their trip let alone be "successful".
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On April 11 2012 04:32 MoonfireSpam wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 03:43 RageBot wrote:On April 11 2012 03:39 MoonfireSpam wrote:On April 11 2012 03:37 RageBot wrote:On April 11 2012 03:34 MoonfireSpam wrote:
So if black guys were better at basketball, would you ban them? Korean = Country. Black People = Race. And, guess what, most people worldwide don't watch NBA as much as they watch their own local leagues. Point taken. Can hate on countries. Can you try and explain to me, in your words, what the people who are "anti-korean" actually say, and not your twisted, strawman version of what you think they say? I just want to see if you are actually trying to understand us or not. The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327880¤tpage=30#582Mostly I'm throwing that arguement out there to make people consider how if you switch "Korean" with "Muslim", "Woman" or "Jew" it becomes a pretty discriminatory comment. Now it's cool that people support their guys, but when it becomes "How can I make sure my man goes balls deep into this tourney?" it's crap. I do get that National or Regional caps would make for a potentially awesome tournament with local qualfiers run over a decent number of games. For example a "UEFA Champions League" format would be good and probably work really well and be a huge success by EU / NA / Korea / SEA + Aus / World divisions or something. Can you do that for every tournament? No. Anyways, in the Open Bracket for IPL4 25% were Korean, which really isn't that big a majority. Actually it isn't a majority. The problem is that the other 75% got shitted on so that by the Quarter Finals in Winners bracket you are down to almost all Koreans. No format can really stop that happening. What they could have done is to make regional qualis actually regional so you at least seed foreigners into pool play, which is a change I would have approved of. What is a shitty thing to do is to cap nationality in an Open Bracket. On a national scale, I don't think I can name 5 players from the same country outside of Sweden, US and Canada. In finishing, IPL4 was an international tourney until the Quater Finals of open bracket, Koreans just dominated.
Yeah, but woman is a gender, a Korean is someone from a specific nation.
Muslim is someone with a specific faith, Jew is... kinda strange, it's half a belief and half "race", I don't want to elaborate about this here (many people ins Israel see themselves as Jewish atheists).
I can also switch the word "Korean" with "Someone who I just can't relate to", would you like it better if that was the word used? And it just so happened that most players that people have problems relating to are Koreans?
And saying that someone is Korean means several more things - odds are he is acting boring (as being defined by a large number of people) on stage, odds are he doesn't speak english, and so on, you can't say that on the "typical" woman, muslim or a jew, because they are more diverse as groups.
Also, the guy that you've quoted doesn't represent us, he represents a more extreme view, for example, I really like Genius, MMA, MKP, MC and DRG (MMA is the only one who I like due to his playing style, out of them), most of us would like to have some Koreans, but not such a large number.
Do you understand that we don't hate Koreans? Do you understand that we are just indifferent to most of them? And that what we hate is that a large number of people towards which we are indifferent are the only people being broadcasted?
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Oh if anyone wants more numbers:
Pacific Qualis: 12/32
UK: 3/32 (all 3 from Online Quali, 1 was a replacement for minigun) -> Tails got seeded as Stephano was already qualified.
Aus: 0/32 -> went to Pacific qualis where both lost to Koreans.
Online #1: 39/64
Online #2: 36/64
Its still pretty fucking international.
And to dude above. Mate did I not say I don't care if you root for your hometown hero? I'll make it shorter.
You support not Korea. OK!. You try make Korea(or anyone else) lose by fixing tourney. Not OK!.
And yeah, ignore the bit about 75% foreigner participation in the open bracket.
Btw I supported the idea of regional qualifiers if you fucking read.
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On April 11 2012 04:44 Uracil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 04:06 RageBot wrote:
It should go like this:
Premier league - GSL, with no Foreign seeds.
Major leagues - DH, IEM, MLG, IPL and so on, allow Koreans but limit them to around 8.
Minor tournemants - like the gathering and so on, it wouldn't matter if you ban Koreans or not because they won't come anyway.
Dailies/Weeklies - Like Playhem, Go4SC2, should be region based, AKA, no Koreans in NA Playhem, because that stunts the growth of local players. IEM has already region based qualifiers and Dreamhack doesn't have a huge number of Koreans. And even at MLG the number of Koreans is not that huge as people make it sound. The reason why so many Koreans where at IPL 4 is that IPL paid for them to visit the GSTL Finals. Without that we wouldn't see this amount of Koreans players.
I thought Korean players participating in IPL 4 had qualified either through the Korean regional qualifiers or through another region's qualifiers. What's the point of regional qualifiers when people play cross-server anyway? The entire idea is laughable.
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This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play.
the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers!
Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did.
What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans.
To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come 
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Dont worry guys, Koreans will kill the sc2 scene and they'll have nothing to play. Then the foreign scene can rise from the ashes like a phoenix and flourish! Then Koreans will start playing and rape foreigners all over again! LOL
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On April 11 2012 04:56 dUTtrOACh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 04:44 Uracil wrote:On April 11 2012 04:06 RageBot wrote:
It should go like this:
Premier league - GSL, with no Foreign seeds.
Major leagues - DH, IEM, MLG, IPL and so on, allow Koreans but limit them to around 8.
Minor tournemants - like the gathering and so on, it wouldn't matter if you ban Koreans or not because they won't come anyway.
Dailies/Weeklies - Like Playhem, Go4SC2, should be region based, AKA, no Koreans in NA Playhem, because that stunts the growth of local players. IEM has already region based qualifiers and Dreamhack doesn't have a huge number of Koreans. And even at MLG the number of Koreans is not that huge as people make it sound. The reason why so many Koreans where at IPL 4 is that IPL paid for them to visit the GSTL Finals. Without that we wouldn't see this amount of Koreans players. I thought Korean players participating in IPL 4 had qualified either through the Korean regional qualifiers or through another region's qualifiers. What's the point of regional qualifiers when people play cross-server anyway? The entire idea is laughable.
Those in pool play qualified in open (not regional) qualifiers. But a lot of the many Koreans in the open bracket were from Startale and Prime. Those teams were paid to come Vegas and play the GSTL.
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On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote:This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play. the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers! Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did. What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans. To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come
Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan.
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On April 11 2012 05:12 MoonfireSpam wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 05:01 SirRobin wrote:This keeps coming up because it's an important issue. I hear so many hardcore fans say they don't give a crap, they just want to see the best level of play. the growth of esports requires a growth of viewers, obviously. So we need more eyes on the game. Now a lot of hardcore fans would argue that, hey, if we're showing the best of the best play, it's what I want, and it's best for the growth of esports because these incredible plays will attract more viewers! Well, in our small niche, yes. But in the grand scheme of things, the difference of skill between EG and coL compared to IM or Prime is minimal. If you know anything about the NA scene, you know most people describe it as a popularity contest. Many NA fans are casuals and that skill differentiation is miniscule. Thus, they focus on the player's personalities, their story, their team's story. Sports have drama and passion. These are things that are appealing to NA casual gamers, not that 1 crazy specific play that some Korean did. What if the whole foreign scene didn't get better? What if the Korean Brood War players switch over and every tournament is won by a Korean? If we look at it from a marketing standpoint, the NA scene would be a community seen as just a bunch of nerdy kids who are in love with some Korean pro gamers. In order to appeal to Americans, we need fellow American gamers. We can't be a group of fans all cheering for other nationalties, as much as we don't care, other people do. Many koreans can't speak english, are not apart of American culture, and therefore are just not simply marketable to most Americans. To grow eSports, there has to be competition at a national level. It seems as though Blizzard understands this with their new World Championship Series and I'm very excited for things to come Because it will in no way be a repeat of Blizzcon 2011 where two Koreans entered into a field of 16 (soz Select, you are USA!) and finish top 2. No doubt should it happen again people will still bitch and moan.
People have no problems with Koreans winning, we have problems with them being the only thing we see, and filling entire top 8 or top 16 of tournemants.
For example, if IPL4 would've showed Sase's games against the Koreans, or Huk's, they would've got more viewers than showing as Alive vs... whoever he was playing.
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EPT
