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As always, with topics as complex and sensitive as these, please take a minute to think before you post. If this thread is to stay open the following must be avoided:
- Disrespect to any of the parties involved (be it the bullies or bullied)
The above includes:
- Justifying or glorifying death or suicide as deserved
- Disregarding or belittling the circumstances that give rise to these situations
There's a reason why these discussions are always so sensitive. There are extremes on either side of the discussion that are disrespectful and narrow-minded in their own ways; the best approach is to carefully consider the other side before posting
Warnings and bans will be handed out for unreasoned and insensitive statements. |
On February 29 2012 09:06 Spekulatius wrote:
I'd appreciate if you stopped calling everyone that disagrees with you someone with no brain, kellenr.
I cannot help it if that's the way I feel. I could lie, and pretend I don't feel that way, but what's the point? The shooter is the guilty party, and the people that got shot are the victims. If you don't agree with that, you are an idiot. It's as simple as that.
Also, the reason I keep saying it is because it's obvious most of you haven't done any real research on school shootings. If everyone was spouting off with intellegent, fact based arguments, rather than "LOL BULLYING SUX THOSE BASTS GOT WHAT THEY HAD COMIN'" then I wouldn't have to keep saying it.
If people are going to be ignorant, i'm going to call them on it. I'm sorry if that offends you. Hopefully it will motivate you to get more educated on the subject.
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the mad-world strikes again... just sad -.-
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Even if bullying were taken seriously in schools saddly it would still happen... just on a different scale.
We should instead find a way to reach kids with the message to not do horrible things like this no matter how much they are picked on. People need to be strong
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On February 29 2012 07:52 Shantastic wrote:
Just because something is wrong does not mean that the perpetrator is the only one responsible. While it is not right to kill someone for bullying, the unimpeded act of bullying invited the fate. They did something wrong with impunity, and something worse happened. In this case, those at greatest fault must be the teachers. It is the responsibility of teachers to monitor the demeanors of the students during school hours. A lot of people blame upbringing, and it is with merit usually, but not just with parents. That is what your teacher is paid for; to educate and take care of your child from 8-4 every day, and to keep you up to date on what your child is doing and how he is interacting with his peers.
Teachers should not be baby sitters. Discipline should be handled 99% of the time at home. Of course any direct conflict is stopped and discouraged, but what you're saying is not possible. How is it the teachers' fault that someone's child not only found a gun but brought it to school? How is it a teacher's fault that his parents didn't talk to him about his life and find out something was fucked up? Teachers are great people, but they aren't miracle workers. If some kid has gone through 8 years of school with no checks and balances, and arrives at high school with a new staff how can that new staff be blamed? etc.
Teachers are a part of the child raising process, but as a teacher, I deny this proposition that "the greatest fault must be with the teachers."
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On February 28 2012 04:51 Yergidy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:41 ASNheat wrote:
We'll continue to see school shootings until the root of the problem is addressed. In the current US school system, students are taught to ignore bullies, and go on with their lives. However, in a lot of cases, the psychological damage still exists and instead of ignoring the anger and frustration they feel, it only festers inside them, eventually leading to school shootings. I believe that a total reversal of the current system should be used where children are taught to express their feelings, both negative and positive, in socially constructive activities. In my eyes, it's clearly evident that there is a much deeper societal problem at the root of things because school shootings have been almost a constant for many years now. It also doesn't help that they're plastered all over the news for potential copycats to see. So what happens when they are bullied as adults? Yes believe it or not there are adult jerks too. You have to learn to deal with it or you're just going to be just as bad off in the future. The world is full of dicks and it's always going to be that way, pretending like we can make the world a dick free environment is idealistic and will never happen, no matter what you do.
please understand that the psychology of a developing teenager is very different from that of a mature adult. You are essentially suggesting that an immature youth has the responsibility to respond to abuse (emotional and/or physical) as though he were a mature adult. This is not only unreasonable; it is analogous to suggesting that gay men have a responsibility to be sexually attracted to women.
What's wrong with this picture is not that these youths did not behave like mature adults; What's wrong is that mature, responsible adults were not in the picture at all.
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On February 29 2012 08:41 ampson wrote:But if you're merely a social outcast, it's probably your own fault.
Yeah, it's totally your own fault if you're a social outcast. You're probably disabled, or gay, or atheist, or otherwise somehow different, and that's totally your responsibility to fix. /sarcasm
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So I just watched one of the press conferences on this incident, and it was stated that the shooter picked his targets at random, and then fled the scene. They made it a point to explicitly say it was NOT a case of bullying.
Does anyone know if bullying actually was a factor, or were people just assuming?
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On February 29 2012 09:30 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 09:06 Spekulatius wrote:
I'd appreciate if you stopped calling everyone that disagrees with you someone with no brain, kellenr. I cannot help it if that's the way I feel. I could lie, and pretend I don't feel that way, but what's the point? The shooter is the guilty party, and the people that got shot are the victims. If you don't agree with that, you are an idiot. It's as simple as that. Also, the reason I keep saying it is because it's obvious most of you haven't done any real research on school shootings. If everyone was spouting off with intellegent, fact based arguments, rather than "LOL BULLYING SUX THOSE BASTS GOT WHAT THEY HAD COMIN'" then I wouldn't have to keep saying it. If people are going to be ignorant, i'm going to call them on it. I'm sorry if that offends you. Hopefully it will motivate you to get more educated on the subject.
What you're doing so far is presuming. You might have read a lot about previous shootings. That doesn't change the fact that up until this point we know were little about why the shooting happened.
You can go ahead and deduct from Columbine and Virginia Tech what might have happened here and why and how it could've been prevented. But fact is, about the shooting at hand you know as little as we do. So unless there's evidence for your statements and the comparability of the situations, you're just doing educated guesses. I acknowledge this hurts your pride, but it's no reason to get angry at people.
And about the question if we should feel sympathy for the bullied: again, it's a matter of opinion, not of fact. It's your view on the situation against the others, or more precisely your feelings against those of the rest. And - I've said it before - very few people confuse the victim and the guilty party here. They're just empathising a little with what we thought was the victim of extensive bullying.
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On February 29 2012 09:38 Bigtony wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 07:52 Shantastic wrote:
Just because something is wrong does not mean that the perpetrator is the only one responsible. While it is not right to kill someone for bullying, the unimpeded act of bullying invited the fate. They did something wrong with impunity, and something worse happened. In this case, those at greatest fault must be the teachers. It is the responsibility of teachers to monitor the demeanors of the students during school hours. A lot of people blame upbringing, and it is with merit usually, but not just with parents. That is what your teacher is paid for; to educate and take care of your child from 8-4 every day, and to keep you up to date on what your child is doing and how he is interacting with his peers.
Teachers should not be baby sitters. Discipline should be handled 99% of the time at home. Of course any direct conflict is stopped and discouraged, but what you're saying is not possible. How is it the teachers' fault that someone's child not only found a gun but brought it to school? How is it a teacher's fault that his parents didn't talk to him about his life and find out something was fucked up? Teachers are great people, but they aren't miracle workers. If some kid has gone through 8 years of school with no checks and balances, and arrives at high school with a new staff how can that new staff be blamed? etc. Teachers are a part of the child raising process, but as a teacher, I deny this proposition that "the greatest fault must be with the teachers."
I'm sorry, but children lie to their parents. My brother did to mine, just like I did, just like the kid I used to tease did, until he had the guts to tell me that what I said was actually hurting his feelings, at which point I realized I was bullying him and stopped. It's a problem with ego, and most children have it. I never said it's the teacher's fault that the shooting happened; no one party is at fault, but at the same time, no one party is free of responsibility. If the teachers do not know a child is being bullied, how can the parents know? The school must find a way to make sure that bullying does not go unnoticed, and that requires engagement in the student's life. Teachers need to be more accountable than they are now, and they need to make a lot more money for it than they are now. That's just what I believe, because education is everything of a childhood that the family life isn't. It develops knowledge, friendships, and social skills. Morality and discipline are parental responsibilities, but in order to know how to proceed, a reliable witness to the child's behavior is needed. If not the teacher, then who?
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http://stateimpact.npr.org/ohio/2012/02/27/tragic-but-rare-odds-of-dying-in-a-school-shooting-as-in-chardon-at-least-one-in-a-million/
To all of you so concerned about bullying and its effects, and to all of you who think rules and intervention will do anything about it in exchange for yet more of a students limited freedom and required subordination to arbitrary bureaucrats, first consider this statistic and tell me how much we need serious, proactive intervention against bullying.
" In contrast, the odds that a child would die in school–by homicide or suicide–are, fortunately, no greater than 1 in 1 million."
It seems our cultural climate is becoming more and more paranoid and less and less realistic, in our so called humanitarian and sympathetic pity we dont realize that you can take a fuckin' chance. I would take these odds any day.
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I don't consider myself in any way paranoid for thinking 1 in a million is 1/1000000 too hgh.
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I don't understand how people just love to rage at each other on the internet. People are arguing when they actually agree with each other. When this happens alot of people start to think, "Why did this happen?" Since this is the most important question. We can't really do anything to prevent what already happened, but if we can figure out why it happened, maybe we can prevent this from happening in the future. So when people think, maybe he was bullied, maybe he was mentally sick, maybe he had a shitty home life, a whole bunch of yahoos read this as "it's okay to kill people if he was bullied, or sick, or had a shitty home life" which is clearly not what people are saying. No one in this thread is trying to say that it's okay to kill people for picking on you or because your life is shitty. So everyone saying that trying to find out why it happens is "justifying' the murders needs to shut up.
Either everyone on TL needs to take a class on logic or they should all become lawyers.
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I wonder how they're going to prosecute this. Does the offender count as a minor, and will he be tried as an adult anyway? Death penalty on the table? How would this work in other countries that don't allowed minors to be tried as adults, especially if the guy killed like 10+ people? Still a few years in juvie?
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This is Virgina Tech all over again.
It will never disappear...cu
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Why are people blaming the teachers? Its not their fault.
The parents need to assume more responsibility. School is not a day care.
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On February 29 2012 11:37 xmaine wrote:
Why are people blaming the teachers? Its not their fault.
The parents need to assume more responsibility. School is not a day care.
Agreed, wait till they get to college where you see just how babied you were by high school teachers.
Teachers are not baby sitters, they are paid to make sure the students learn the given subject and that's it. Its the parents jobs to teach morals and ethics just like its always been.
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On February 29 2012 09:50 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 08:41 ampson wrote:But if you're merely a social outcast, it's probably your own fault. Yeah, it's totally your own fault if you're a social outcast. You're probably disabled, or gay, or atheist, or otherwise somehow different, and that's totally your responsibility to fix. /sarcasm
Note that I said probably. And in my experience, it's theists who are shunned more than atheists. Schools can vary, however.
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God, the entire thread revolved around the OP and him mentioning bullying but it turns out there was no bullying. What a load of shit I spent so much time on this thread too.
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On February 29 2012 12:47 ampson wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 09:50 sunprince wrote:On February 29 2012 08:41 ampson wrote:But if you're merely a social outcast, it's probably your own fault. Yeah, it's totally your own fault if you're a social outcast. You're probably disabled, or gay, or atheist, or otherwise somehow different, and that's totally your responsibility to fix. /sarcasm Note that I said probably. And in my experience, it's theists who are shunned more than atheists. Schools can vary, however.
You obviously don't live in the south...
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EPT
