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As always, with topics as complex and sensitive as these, please take a minute to think before you post. If this thread is to stay open the following must be avoided:
- Disrespect to any of the parties involved (be it the bullies or bullied)
The above includes:
- Justifying or glorifying death or suicide as deserved
- Disregarding or belittling the circumstances that give rise to these situations
There's a reason why these discussions are always so sensitive. There are extremes on either side of the discussion that are disrespectful and narrow-minded in their own ways; the best approach is to carefully consider the other side before posting
Warnings and bans will be handed out for unreasoned and insensitive statements. |
On February 29 2012 04:05 NoSlack wrote:There is another thread on gun control here ( link). Let's try to stay on topic? I just watch a story on CNN and surprisingly their "expert" is blaming the parents as well for this. I'd have expected CNN to blame republicans and gun control laws. No matter the pressure a child should never consider doing what this kid did. All teenagers do crazy stuff, I know I did, but damn... I said it 10 pages ago and I'll say it again for those that missed it. There are no bad children, only bad parents.
Sigh...more platitudes. Sorry, but there are definitely bad children. There is no doubt that parents have a huge hand in the behavior of their child, and that some (most) of the blame here rests with the parents for not seeing this coming or doing anything to prevent it. On the other hand, under no circumstances should the child be excused for murdering 3 people because of "bad parenting" or "being sad." He needs to be rehabilitated, not pitied.
And gun control in this context is on-topic. This is the one scenario where I think it could actually make a difference, since it's difficult (read: impossible) for most teenagers to get a gun in order to do something like this if it isn't already lying around their house.
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On February 29 2012 04:14 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 04:05 NoSlack wrote:There is another thread on gun control here ( link). Let's try to stay on topic? I just watch a story on CNN and surprisingly their "expert" is blaming the parents as well for this. I'd have expected CNN to blame republicans and gun control laws. No matter the pressure a child should never consider doing what this kid did. All teenagers do crazy stuff, I know I did, but damn... I said it 10 pages ago and I'll say it again for those that missed it. There are no bad children, only bad parents. Sigh...more platitudes. Sorry, but there are definitely bad children. There is no doubt that parents have a huge hand in the behavior of their child, and that some (most) of the blame here rests with the parents for not seeing this coming or doing anything to prevent it. On the other hand, under no circumstances should the child be excused for murdering 3 people because of "bad parenting" or "being sad." He needs to be rehabilitated, not pitied. And gun control in this context is on-topic. This is the one scenario where I think it could actually make a difference, since it's difficult (read: impossible) for most teenagers to get a gun in order to do something like this if it isn't already lying around their house.
I agree the child is old enough to blame here. His thoughts leading up to this event were shaped by his parents over the years, though. He should be tried as an adult and deserves whatever they decide to give him and more.
As for the gun control... I still blame the parents for reasons mentioned in the other thread that is actually about gun control.
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On February 28 2012 12:26 Slithe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:42 kellenr wrote:
I was wondering when this argument would come. I was literally going to postulate it myself. It's obvious to me that literally the only problem with capital punishment is that an innocent person could be executed and I must say, I don't really have a good answer for it.
I guess it's just a lose lose. I couldn't stand the thought of an innoent person getting executed, and I couldn't stand the thought of this dude from Oslo getting life in prison.
So how do I reconcile those two? No simple answer, obviously. We can get back on topic. Didn't mean to run this into a ditch over capital punishment. It's just, I feel like i'm an expert on serial killers, and as such, I just know there's people out there that deserve the death penalty. Actually, no. They deserve much, much worse.
Oh, and also. I don't know if you guys from other countries know this or not but... America kind of has the biggest serial killer problem in the whole effing world. So it would stand to reason more people over here would support capital punishment, seeing as how we have wayyyyy more deserving inmates than most countries do.
Extreme crimes call for extreme punishment. So, I could understand countries that don't have an extreme violent crime problem supporting capital punishment.
How do you feel about frilly toohpicks? I'm for 'em.
I think the interesting question is why do we have so many serial killers in America? Do you think that we just naturally have a higher percentage of serial killers? Hey, maybe it's because we have a bullying problem that we also have a serial killer problem. I think the other nations are far more pragmatic in their approach to crime as a whole. Focus on rehabilitation, rather than punishment. I think that the USA's fixation on punishment is blurring the line between justice and vengeance in a bad way.
I'm sorry I just couldn't let this one slide... Did you really just suggest that America's serial killing problem is a result of bullying? Seriously, have you read even one single book on serial killers? While spree killers (killing more than 3 people in one event without a cool down period in between) and school shooters are sometimes partially motivated by bullying, serial killers (killing more than 3 people at 3 separate times with a cool down period in between) are generally altogether different. They are more methodical, more rational, more terrifying, better liars, harder to catch and more demented in every way imaginable. While a spree killer is generally new to murder, a serial killer is literally a master of it. More well practiced in every way. For a spree killer the goal is a dead body. For a serial killer, the goal is the actual act of murdering someone. They are not after a dead body, they are after the rush and the thrill of the kill itself. Thus, one dead body is never enough. They have to keep recreating that experience.
All I'm getting at is, while spree killers are often partially motivated by bullying, serial killers are not. Nine out of ten times, it's their parents. Usually, the parents are psychopaths too. Generally, people aren't born without empathy. It is systematically stripped away from them, usually by insanely abusive parents (which, I know someone's going to say is a form of bullying, but when I say bullying I mean by peers) over the course of a very long time. Their sympathy for other people is usually physically beaten out of them, to a point where the only thing that makes sense to them is violence. They literally cannot project their psyche onto another person like you or I easily can, and do on a daily, almost minute to minute basis. In other words they cannot "see it from your shoes" ever. Period. To them, they are their own whole world. Other people are literally just a collection of atoms, they are not "people." No different than a rock or twig or insect. Something to be snapped in half, used up, taken advantage of.
But that's only half of it. The other half is American culture. It's literally a competition. News agency’s can’t wait to make their bold, new highest body count ever! These stories sell, they become social scripts, and other budding psychopaths follow them. American culture has an intense interest in violence and tragedy. We literally subconsciously encourage it, and hope for it. Add that to our ridiculously staggering gun problem, and it's a ticking time bomb.
Also, while I do agree our judicial system focuses too much on punishment rather than rehabilitation, even this notion can be misleading, with specific regard to serial killers. It has been systematically scientifically proven that counseling actually makes psychopaths worse. For a psychopath, the ultimate phantasy is the lie. They lie about literally everything at all times. And when you counsel them, they get good at lying. They dupe their psychiatrists on a regular basis, and getting the opportunity to sharpen their wit against an intellectual foe allows them to more easily dupe everyday citizens once they are released. Psychopathy is almost, in a sense, completely untreatable.
Both Eric and Dylan were court ordered to undergo counseling and enter a diversions program after they were caught stealing stereo equipment from a car. While Dylan barely passed his sessions, Eric (the obvious psychopathic leader of the criminal dyad) was deemed by his counselor to be totally remorseful. He even wrote a touching letter to the owner of the vehicle, apologizing for his actions. All the counseling did was allow him to hone his art of deception. Something both Eric and Dylan powerfully leveraged against their parents.
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Regarding the gun, it came out a short while ago that he stole it from his uncle, who had purchased it legally.
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On February 28 2012 04:25 Kamais Ookin wrote:
This is what happens when no one in school gives a single fuck about bullying.
Or this kids learn a very valuable lesson about bullying Don't do or bad shit happens. Same with that little kid who was bullying the fat kids in Australia.
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I actually go to school 10 mins away from Chardon where the shooting happened. I do not know any of the victims personally, but I do have friends that do and it's quite emotional. The police has been told to stay in surrounding schools, but I have no idea why. It's not like there are going to be intruders that will all of a sudden go into neighborhood schools and start shooting.
Also, I don't know if it's been updated in this thread yet, but it is now a confirmed 3 dead and 2 in critical condition.
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Blame here as usual lies squarely on the system that allows for bullying to happen. The blood is more on the hands of the bullies (and their parents) and the teachers than anyone else. Of course not every single school shooting is due to bullies, some people are just mentally disturbed, all evidence here points to that. Schools where this happen should be temprorarily shut down while a rigorous evaluation of the teaching staff takes place. I would even be in favour of holding the parents of the bullies responsible for the deaths as well.
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On February 29 2012 04:33 NoSlack wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 04:14 ZasZ. wrote:On February 29 2012 04:05 NoSlack wrote:There is another thread on gun control here ( link). Let's try to stay on topic? I just watch a story on CNN and surprisingly their "expert" is blaming the parents as well for this. I'd have expected CNN to blame republicans and gun control laws. No matter the pressure a child should never consider doing what this kid did. All teenagers do crazy stuff, I know I did, but damn... I said it 10 pages ago and I'll say it again for those that missed it. There are no bad children, only bad parents. Sigh...more platitudes. Sorry, but there are definitely bad children. There is no doubt that parents have a huge hand in the behavior of their child, and that some (most) of the blame here rests with the parents for not seeing this coming or doing anything to prevent it. On the other hand, under no circumstances should the child be excused for murdering 3 people because of "bad parenting" or "being sad." He needs to be rehabilitated, not pitied. And gun control in this context is on-topic. This is the one scenario where I think it could actually make a difference, since it's difficult (read: impossible) for most teenagers to get a gun in order to do something like this if it isn't already lying around their house. I agree the child is old enough to blame here. His thoughts leading up to this event were shaped by his parents over the years, though. He should be tried as an adult and deserves whatever they decide to give him and more. As for the gun control... I still blame the parents for reasons mentioned in the other thread that is actually about gun control.
I don't have the time to look up for the full research right now, but the enviorment in which a person grows - school, friends etc, have way more effect on how his personality is going to shape than the influence of his parents.
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On February 29 2012 06:37 RageBot wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 04:33 NoSlack wrote:On February 29 2012 04:14 ZasZ. wrote:On February 29 2012 04:05 NoSlack wrote:There is another thread on gun control here ( link). Let's try to stay on topic? I just watch a story on CNN and surprisingly their "expert" is blaming the parents as well for this. I'd have expected CNN to blame republicans and gun control laws. No matter the pressure a child should never consider doing what this kid did. All teenagers do crazy stuff, I know I did, but damn... I said it 10 pages ago and I'll say it again for those that missed it. There are no bad children, only bad parents. Sigh...more platitudes. Sorry, but there are definitely bad children. There is no doubt that parents have a huge hand in the behavior of their child, and that some (most) of the blame here rests with the parents for not seeing this coming or doing anything to prevent it. On the other hand, under no circumstances should the child be excused for murdering 3 people because of "bad parenting" or "being sad." He needs to be rehabilitated, not pitied. And gun control in this context is on-topic. This is the one scenario where I think it could actually make a difference, since it's difficult (read: impossible) for most teenagers to get a gun in order to do something like this if it isn't already lying around their house. I agree the child is old enough to blame here. His thoughts leading up to this event were shaped by his parents over the years, though. He should be tried as an adult and deserves whatever they decide to give him and more. As for the gun control... I still blame the parents for reasons mentioned in the other thread that is actually about gun control. I don't have the time to look up for the full research right now, but the enviorment in which a person grows - school, friends etc, have way more effect on how his personality is going to shape than the influence of his parents.
Only because parents don't do anything anymore. Also, last I checked your home (you know the place where you live, sleep, eat, etc) is a pretty big part of that environment.
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Bloody hell. These cases are always pretty tragic. I think there needs to be more support then things like this wouldn't happen.
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On February 29 2012 06:41 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 06:37 RageBot wrote:On February 29 2012 04:33 NoSlack wrote:On February 29 2012 04:14 ZasZ. wrote:On February 29 2012 04:05 NoSlack wrote:There is another thread on gun control here ( link). Let's try to stay on topic? I just watch a story on CNN and surprisingly their "expert" is blaming the parents as well for this. I'd have expected CNN to blame republicans and gun control laws. No matter the pressure a child should never consider doing what this kid did. All teenagers do crazy stuff, I know I did, but damn... I said it 10 pages ago and I'll say it again for those that missed it. There are no bad children, only bad parents. Sigh...more platitudes. Sorry, but there are definitely bad children. There is no doubt that parents have a huge hand in the behavior of their child, and that some (most) of the blame here rests with the parents for not seeing this coming or doing anything to prevent it. On the other hand, under no circumstances should the child be excused for murdering 3 people because of "bad parenting" or "being sad." He needs to be rehabilitated, not pitied. And gun control in this context is on-topic. This is the one scenario where I think it could actually make a difference, since it's difficult (read: impossible) for most teenagers to get a gun in order to do something like this if it isn't already lying around their house. I agree the child is old enough to blame here. His thoughts leading up to this event were shaped by his parents over the years, though. He should be tried as an adult and deserves whatever they decide to give him and more. As for the gun control... I still blame the parents for reasons mentioned in the other thread that is actually about gun control. I don't have the time to look up for the full research right now, but the enviorment in which a person grows - school, friends etc, have way more effect on how his personality is going to shape than the influence of his parents. Only because parents don't do anything anymore. Also, last I checked your home (you know the place where you live, sleep, eat, etc) is a pretty big part of that environment.
The sad thing is, terrible parents have a huge effect on their kids. They literally break them through physical and mental abuse. But good parents have far less of an effect on their children, as they generally encourage them to become autonomous, and give them a breath of privacy. Good parents are the easiest to fool. My parents were literally awesome and super involved in my life, but they had no idea I spent most of my time at home doing drugs in my bathroom all through highschool. And I could never blame them for not knowing; I was adept at hiding it, as most of these school shooters are as well. Dylan Kleebold had great parents as well. They constantly checked up on him, accompanied him to college visitations, and monitored his grades and expected much of him.
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On February 29 2012 06:32 ComusLoM wrote:
Blame here as usual lies squarely on the system that allows for bullying to happen. The blood is more on the hands of the bullies (and their parents) and the teachers than anyone else. Of course not every single school shooting is due to bullies, some people are just mentally disturbed, all evidence here points to that. Schools where this happen should be temprorarily shut down while a rigorous evaluation of the teaching staff takes place. I would even be in favour of holding the parents of the bullies responsible for the deaths as well.
Yet another person jumping on the bullying bandwagon. There is absolutely no evidence here that suggests this kid was bullied, other than the fact that he is obviously a little strange, and they tend to attract that sort of attention. All first or second hand accounts so far suggest that the shooter didn't even go to the same school as the victims, but was there to get picked up so he could go to his "special-needs" academy. Apparently there was some bad blood between them over a girl, but I don't know any information other than that.
But in your hypothetical, fairy-tale scenario where these kids left him no choice but to shoot them dead because of how mean they are, the blood still isn't on the hands of the bullies. Bullying is a serious problem in American schools, there is no doubt about that, but as far as the criminal/moral scale goes, murder is a far worse act than bullying. Justifying premeditated murder with "well, they had it coming!" is cold-blooded to say the least.
The one part of your post that does make sense is that the teachers/administrative staff should be held partially responsible for this tragedy. Not because of the bullying (which didn't even occur), but because other students tried to warn them about what this kid was going to do and nobody took them seriously. Also, whoever spent time around the shooter (parents, teachers) should have been able to tell that he was a little off, especially when he's posting pictures on the internet of him posing with his guns.
To say the parents of the bullies should be held responsible is lol-worthy however. Speaking from personal experience (some of the kids I knew in elementary/middle school could be considered bullies, and I knew their parents), most parents have absolutely no idea how their child behaves at school or around other children unless the teachers report incidents of bullying (which never happens). Even the bullies know how to be sweet to their parents in order to get what they want.
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On February 28 2012 04:25 Kamais Ookin wrote:
This is what happens when no one in school gives a single fuck about bullying.
Sadly, this is a fairly accurate statement. If schools do not make the effort to intervene in situations of bullying, then more people will be pushed over the edge. And then we'll have more tragedies like Columbine and this Ohio school.
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being bullied is not an acceptable excuse for going around shooting bulliers
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they were kids, and kids always bully or get bullied... it will always exist until the finally grow up and realize that bullying is actually a wrong thing to do.
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Alright, where are all these ignorant "the bullies got what they deserved" posters now? Does everyone feel equally silly for so quickly jumping on the bully-bandwagon? Because you should.
I hate to say I told you so but... I told you so.
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Wow, it's even worse than I thought. I'd been correcting the people decrying "Bullying kills!" thinking that it was over the girl as some people close to the incident had thought. If he really did choose them randomly, then he's a psychopath and should be tried as an adult.
The amount of people in this thread still talking about bullying is astounding though, really.
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On February 28 2012 08:27 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:45 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:38 kellenr wrote:On February 28 2012 07:31 Spekulatius wrote:On February 28 2012 07:23 Endymion wrote:
i really don't get how people sympathize with the gunmen... he ended someones life, tried to kill 4 others, and people are saying "oh it was because he was bullied.." fuck this kid, you should feel bad for all of the people getting bullied who are nice enough to not shoot up a school.. oh well, it's easy to be anonymous on the internet
edit ~ violence shouldn't be met with more violence, it should be met with reason and order... we aren't barbarians. I think we have a big misunderstanding in this thread. You can't deny the bolded statement if the media coverage isn't total crap. 1) The bullying was the cause of the shooting. That's kinda clear. 2) People feel sympathy for the shooter because he was bullied. Of course this causes more empathy because the shooter was a former victim. Even more so since many of us have gone through the same pain. 3) The related, yet to be separately answered question is that of the justification. And I don't even think there's a lot of disagreement there. Of course shooting someone for bullying you, no matter the duration and severity, is not justified. But given the backstory, it's easily explainable. People just need to stop confusing explanation and justification. You cannot say bullying was the cause at this point!! Did you even follow Columbine?? Everyone jumped on the bully bandwagon within MINUTES. There was literally a whole, national campaign against bullying. But guess what... that's not why they did it! Eric was the most stereotypical psychopath EVER. He had no empathy, he hated the human race, he believed in natural selection, and he wanted to be infamous. He was an adept liar and he spent all his spare time making pipe bombs in his basement. Eric was dating like a 23 year old girl, Dylan had a date to prom! These kids were not the big losers they were made out to be. Eric was a classic psychopath and Dylan was a suicidal follower. I'm not saying bullying wasn't the cause, i'm saying we can't know conclusively yet if it was. a) So if the cause was bullying, would you agree with me? b) That's why I included "if the media coverage isn't total crap" in my post. We can only discuss the information that's being given to us right now. We shouldn't be taking too much from Columbine or Virginia Tech as they're particular cases. If there are patterns in school shooters' characters that lead to those shootings, fine, we can cautiously use them to analyse the Ohio shooting at hand. But what we have so far is "bullied student shoots his bully + collateral damage". And that's what being talked about, right? If we were supposed to shut up until the situation is cleared up entirely in some months' time, this thread wouldn't be open. Yes if the investigation concludes it was bullying, I will agree that that was the motive. But I don't feel any sympathy for a guy that brings a gun to school and starts shooting his peers, regardless of the "reasons" he did it. Zilch, zero, nada. I will feel sorry for the victims that where shot, killed and maimed, and only those said victims. I'm just baffled I seem to be in the minority.
And I just had to quote this... You didn't have to shut up for "some months" to hear the reality of the story. You had to shut up for literally one day.
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On February 29 2012 07:08 ZasZ. wrote:Wow, it's even worse than I thought. I'd been correcting the people decrying "Bullying kills!" thinking that it was over the girl as some people close to the incident had thought. If he really did choose them randomly, then he's a psychopath and should be tried as an adult. The amount of people in this thread still talking about bullying is astounding though, really.
Although I also disagree with those trying to defend the shooter and saying that the victims "deserved" it, is it a for sure thing that he chose people at random?
It says in the article:
The hearing came hours after the death toll rose to three, and as schoolmates and townspeople grappled with the tragedy and wondered what could have set the gunman off — a mystery the court appearance did nothing to solve.
It was the prosecutor who claims he didn't know his victims...and this is just the first hearing. So I think it'd be a good idea to wait for more information before making anymore assumptions.
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