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As always, with topics as complex and sensitive as these, please take a minute to think before you post. If this thread is to stay open the following must be avoided: - Disrespect to any of the parties involved (be it the bullies or bullied) The above includes: - Justifying or glorifying death or suicide as deserved - Disregarding or belittling the circumstances that give rise to these situations There's a reason why these discussions are always so sensitive. There are extremes on either side of the discussion that are disrespectful and narrow-minded in their own ways; the best approach is to carefully consider the other side before posting Warnings and bans will be handed out for unreasoned and insensitive statements. | ||
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TsoBadGuy
United States221 Posts
This problem is so charged some people see, "This is why he did it." And other's see that as "This is why he's justified." And the argument takes a whole new bad direction, lashing out is never justified, it can only be related to by those who've been pushed. I've seen no one say, bold-faced, this was justified. Yet, I see so many other threads, asking how this can possibly be justified in someone elses eyes. Let it go. It's just awful that it happened. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
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kellenr
98 Posts
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/28/10526993-third-student-dies-in-shooting-gunman-said-to-have-fired-randomly | ||
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Shantastic
United States435 Posts
That said, when you tell your 11 y/o kid about the four kids who took a bullet for what they did, your kid is much less likely to be a bully, no? Just because something is wrong does not mean that the perpetrator is the only one responsible. While it is not right to kill someone for bullying, the unimpeded act of bullying invited the fate. They did something wrong with impunity, and something worse happened. In this case, those at greatest fault must be the teachers. It is the responsibility of teachers to monitor the demeanors of the students during school hours. A lot of people blame upbringing, and it is with merit usually, but not just with parents. That is what your teacher is paid for; to educate and take care of your child from 8-4 every day, and to keep you up to date on what your child is doing and how he is interacting with his peers. To talk about how the bullies chose to be assholes is so moronic, it makes me weep for the educated. Kids are stupid. No exceptions. I'm still stupid, and I'm 19 years old. The only difference between me and an 11-year-old is that I know better than to be a dick, because I grew up in an environment that taught me to make my own determinations of what is right and what is wrong, one that helped me to develop my own moral compass. Kids choose to bully because they don't know better, and no one taught them any better. So yes. Upbringing is very important, and it was at fault for what happened here, without a doubt. That said, everyone deserves a bit of empathy in some way. Nothing is ever completely one person's fault, and it is harmful to think that way. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
T.J. Lane, 17, admitted taking a .22-caliber pistol to Chardon High School along with a knife and firing 10 shots at a group of students sitting at a cafeteria table Monday morning, Prosecutor David Joyce said. The hearing came hours after the death toll rose to three, and as schoolmates and townspeople grappled with the tragedy and wondered what could have set the gunman off — a mystery the court appearance did nothing to solve. "He did not know the students but chose them randomly," Joyce said. | ||
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Spekulatius
Germany2413 Posts
On February 29 2012 07:16 kellenr wrote: And I just had to quote this... You didn't have to shut up for "some months" to hear the reality of the story. You had to shut up for literally one day. The prosecutors are gonna charge the killer in 15 days (other sources say they have until March 1st). The verdict will come out in a few months. All you have for now is several more news reports. It's not like the full truth is out there yet. (Read this article among other reports that say "The police did not offer any information about a possible motive or about where the suspect obtained a gun. | ||
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Ungrateful
United States71 Posts
On February 29 2012 07:56 Spekulatius wrote: The prosecutors are gonna charge the killer in 15 days. The verdict will come out in a few months. All you have for now is several more news reports. It's not like the full truth is out there yet. But if we take what we have as information now, it seems like the whole bullying discussion is rendered moot, I agree. If you read the article above they already have surveillance of the event. This kid is a dead man walking, no controversy about it, it was him and only him that killed 3 people and wounded 2 others and he will be in jail for a long long long time. FACT | ||
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shizna
United Kingdom803 Posts
such an unbelievably hypocritical view in my opinion. the vulnerability and pain of being bullied is not comparable to the vulnerability and pain of being shot like game. ppl getting bullied should be strong and use the anger to do something productive with their life... not sacrifice their entire life for dumb revenge... the shooter obviously thought the bullies were more important than his own life - which is so sad that it's actually funny. edit: wait... he didn't even know the kids he shot...? so all of the talk of bullying in this thread is irrelevant i guess. User was warned for this post | ||
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Spekulatius
Germany2413 Posts
On February 29 2012 07:58 Ungrateful wrote: If you read the article above they already have surveillance of the event. This kid is a dead man walking, no controversy about it, it was him and only him that killed 3 people and wounded 2 others and he will be in jail for a long long long time. FACT I never said he didn't shoot them. Read my post and the nested quotes... | ||
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Ryder.
1117 Posts
On February 29 2012 05:00 logikly wrote: Or this kids learn a very valuable lesson about bullying Don't do or bad shit happens. Same with that little kid who was bullying the fat kids in Australia. Maybe we should execute thieves too, so that they learn a valuable lesson not to steal or bad shit happens to them :/ justice is about having a punishment that fits the crime, I am astounded at how many people seem supportive of this kid dying, presumably because they were bullied themselves. Ive been bullied too but ffs get some perspective. Anyway this whole thing looks fishy, as in the extent that there was bullying or even if it happened at all. Edit: yes I think victims should stand up for themselves. Do I consider premeditated murder as an appropriate way to do so? Shit no | ||
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Ungrateful
United States71 Posts
On February 29 2012 08:07 Ryder. wrote: Maybe we should execute thieves too, so that they learn a valuable lesson not to steal or bad shit happens to them :/ justice is about having a punishment that fits the crime, I am astounded at how many people seem supportive of this kid dying, presumably because they were bullied themselves. Ive been bullied too but ffs get some perspective. Anyway this whole thing looks fishy, as in the extent that there was bullying or even if it happened at all. Read the last half a page and you would know that there are 3 dead and the shooter himself admitted to shooting random people. Edit: I agree with you however alot of your post has been answered/changed | ||
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Ryder.
1117 Posts
On February 29 2012 08:09 Ungrateful wrote: Read the last half a page and you would know that there are 3 dead and the shooter himself admitted to shooting random people. Edit: I agree with you however alot of your post has been answered/changed Oops in sorry missed the last few posts as I was replying to this. Regardless, what I said to the guy I quoted is still relevant. But yeah the whole thing did seem odd if the whole thing was about bullying, especially the stuff about him taking photos of himself with guns, makes more sense that it isn't I suppose. | ||
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Shantastic
United States435 Posts
On February 29 2012 08:01 shizna wrote: typical american response in the OP... the victims don't deserve sympathy? This statement makes me so fucking furious. You must be a complete fucking idiot, which, by the way, has NOTHING to do with the fact that you're British. You call the statement of one person something typically American, without any regard as to what any other Americans say in this thread, which is plain idiotic, which, by the way, has NOTHING to do with the fact that you're British. Learn not to insult 300 million people by identifying them all with the statement of one person, then come back and revise your statement. | ||
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ampson
United States2355 Posts
On February 29 2012 08:01 shizna wrote: typical american response in the OP... the victims don't deserve sympathy? Screw off. You're being an ignorant asshat by generalizing 300 million people based on what 1 person said. What he said isn't even the most popular view in America, most people feel sorry for the deceased. Anyway, new news findings are indicating that bullying probably wasn't even a factor. TL.net always jumps on the bully bandwagon way too quickly, it's as if everyone here has been shoved into lockers repeatedly. Murder is never justified, ever. In addition, 99% of kids are bullied at some point. It's up to the parents and the kids to deal with it appropriately and not kill people. Recently, I think that we have gotten too.... soft when it comes to bullying. Sure, you should seek help if you're being beaten up by 3 kids every day. But if you're merely a social outcast, it's probably your own fault. People need to teach kids that there is a life beyond high school, and that lives are valuable. Far too many commit suicide or kill, or both. Kill count is up to 3, with more injured. My best wishes to the families of the deceased, and I hope that the danger to society who committed the crime is removed. | ||
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OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
On February 29 2012 06:51 ZasZ. wrote: Yet another person jumping on the bullying bandwagon. There is absolutely no evidence here that suggests this kid was bullied, other than the fact that he is obviously a little strange, and they tend to attract that sort of attention. All first or second hand accounts so far suggest that the shooter didn't even go to the same school as the victims, but was there to get picked up so he could go to his "special-needs" academy. Apparently there was some bad blood between them over a girl, but I don't know any information other than that. But in your hypothetical, fairy-tale scenario where these kids left him no choice but to shoot them dead because of how mean they are, the blood still isn't on the hands of the bullies. Bullying is a serious problem in American schools, there is no doubt about that, but as far as the criminal/moral scale goes, murder is a far worse act than bullying. Justifying premeditated murder with "well, they had it coming!" is cold-blooded to say the least. The one part of your post that does make sense is that the teachers/administrative staff should be held partially responsible for this tragedy. Not because of the bullying (which didn't even occur), but because other students tried to warn them about what this kid was going to do and nobody took them seriously. Also, whoever spent time around the shooter (parents, teachers) should have been able to tell that he was a little off, especially when he's posting pictures on the internet of him posing with his guns. To say the parents of the bullies should be held responsible is lol-worthy however. Speaking from personal experience (some of the kids I knew in elementary/middle school could be considered bullies, and I knew their parents), most parents have absolutely no idea how their child behaves at school or around other children unless the teachers report incidents of bullying (which never happens). Even the bullies know how to be sweet to their parents in order to get what they want. You make some pretty bold claims for making things up. According to this interview he was bullied, so unless she's making things up for no reason then it DID in fact occur. http://cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2012/02/28/savidge-school-shooting.cnn The statement that would be more fitting if he didn't know his victims is that those specific victims hadn't bullied him. But he was in fact bullied. We'll find out if he's a psycho when he gets a psychiatric evaluation. This was obviously premeditated since he posted pics the day before. Just because he lashed out at one person doesn't mean that bullying had no effect on him leading up to the events, even if that person wasn't the source of bullying. Bully, bully, bully, FML, F this, F everyone, act of violence. | ||
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
On February 29 2012 08:41 ampson wrote: TL.net always jumps on the bully bandwagon way too quickly, it's as if everyone here has been shoved into lockers repeatedly. you can blame the media for that. they always run off the assumption that it's bullying that caused it. makes for a more "dramatic story". i remember when columbine happened the narrative was that they were bullied, and then years later we found out that they were bullies themselves, and were most likely not bullied at all. sometimes its just crazy people doing crazy stuff. not trying to say that its never the bullied lashing out, but a lot of times its not. still, its all irrelevant anyway. kids are dead and hurt and there is nothing we can do except try to move on and pay more attention when kids make threats like this one did. edit: im not saying anythign about this case specifically, as i don't know the facts. but in general, the media does play stuff up to try to make it more dramatic. thought i should clarify that. | ||
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kellenr
98 Posts
On February 29 2012 08:47 sc2superfan101 wrote: you can blame the media for that. they always run off the assumption that it's bullying that caused it. makes for a more "dramatic story". i remember when columbine happened the narrative was that they were bullied, and then years later we found out that they were bullies themselves, and were most likely not bullied at all. sometimes its just crazy people doing crazy stuff. not trying to say that its never the bullied lashing out, but a lot of times its not. still, its all irrelevant anyway. kids are dead and hurt and there is nothing we can do except try to move on and pay more attention when kids make threats like this one did. edit: im not saying anythign about this case specifically, as i don't know the facts. but in general, the media does play stuff up to try to make it more dramatic. thought i should clarify that. Finally someone with a brain that did a little research on Columbine. This bully thing is run with literally after EVERY school shooting. It usually starts with a reporter shoving a microphone into the face of a some traumatized teen with a half story. That was one of the biggest problems with Columbine's reporting, they pretty much let the kids cover the story, and their interpretation of the events were often clouded by the commotion. I.E. - Everyone thinking Cassy Bernall proclaimed her faith in God before she was killed. Not true at all. There was a girl literally hiding under the table with her. Eric walked up to the table, slapped the top twice, said "peek-a-boo" and shot under the table without even looking under it. They never even spoke a word to each other. The only time God was brought up was when Bree was asked by Dylan if she believed in God, and she vacillated back and forth "Yes.. No.. I don't know" searching for the right answer. She was spared. Someone heard this, attributed it to Cassy, and the rest is history. | ||
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Spekulatius
Germany2413 Posts
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Phyre
United States1288 Posts
On February 29 2012 08:01 shizna wrote: typical american response in the OP... the victims don't deserve sympathy? such an unbelievably hypocritical view in my opinion. the vulnerability and pain of being bullied is not comparable to the vulnerability and pain of being shot like game. ppl getting bullied should be strong and use the anger to do something productive with their life... not sacrifice their entire life for dumb revenge... the shooter obviously thought the bullies were more important than his own life - which is so sad that it's actually funny. edit: wait... he didn't even know the kids he shot...? so all of the talk of bullying in this thread is irrelevant i guess. Get strong? Why didn't we think of that, it's genius! It's just that easy! Seriously though, I'm not sure what you were thinking with that statement. If someone takes a gun to a bully they were probably not a "strong" person, mentally, physically, or both. Getting a weapon probably constituted "getting strong" in their minds, acting as an equalizer. Especially if the bullying was physical, as in that case it's almost guaranteed that the bullied is weaker than the bully. | ||
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Shantastic
United States435 Posts
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