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As always, with topics as complex and sensitive as these, please take a minute to think before you post. If this thread is to stay open the following must be avoided:
- Disrespect to any of the parties involved (be it the bullies or bullied)
The above includes:
- Justifying or glorifying death or suicide as deserved
- Disregarding or belittling the circumstances that give rise to these situations
There's a reason why these discussions are always so sensitive. There are extremes on either side of the discussion that are disrespectful and narrow-minded in their own ways; the best approach is to carefully consider the other side before posting
Warnings and bans will be handed out for unreasoned and insensitive statements. |
On February 29 2012 16:56 Fourn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 15:03 Hyuzak wrote:On February 29 2012 10:19 Phenom01 wrote:http://stateimpact.npr.org/ohio/2012/02/27/tragic-but-rare-odds-of-dying-in-a-school-shooting-as-in-chardon-at-least-one-in-a-million/To all of you so concerned about bullying and its effects, and to all of you who think rules and intervention will do anything about it in exchange for yet more of a students limited freedom and required subordination to arbitrary bureaucrats, first consider this statistic and tell me how much we need serious, proactive intervention against bullying. " In contrast, the odds that a child would die in school–by homicide or suicide–are, fortunately, no greater than 1 in 1 million." It seems our cultural climate is becoming more and more paranoid and less and less realistic, in our so called humanitarian and sympathetic pity we dont realize that you can take a fuckin' chance. I would take these odds any day. School shootings are not the only thing that bullying can cause. Depression, Suicide, low self esteem, etc are all major issues that can be caused from being bullied. Saying that we don't need to worry about bullying just because not very many people die from school shootings is stupid. This. Though I do not agree with the actions of the shooter and in no way are his actions justifiable, but it is definitely understandable. I know what it's like to be bullied and as a result have very low self esteem now, but I would never lash out at my attackers. Fighting back, IMO, is just as worse as bullying and makes you no better than them. This shooter is a scumbag, but he should have never been subjected to bullying in the first place and I feel bad for him (and his victims) because he's probably fucked up in the head as a result of bullying. Anyone against cracking down on bullying just because the odds of being killed in a school shooting are ridiculously high is a moron. School shootings are not the only result of bullying. I personally think that bullying should be made illegal, no questions asked. It fucks people up for their entire lives and I'm certainly fucked up in the head a little because of what I had to go through in middle and high school. Detention/Suspension clearly does not get the message across.
Where the hell do you draw the line if you were going to make it illegal? Bullying obviously has varying degrees of severity and effects people in different ways. We can't go ape shit with repercussions just because some immature kid is mean to another kid.
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On February 29 2012 16:58 zalz wrote:
I think it would grace the people that told these victims that they "deserved it," to apologize.
You spoke out before the facts were in, you made horrible claims. Have a little spine and admit you were wrong and ended up saying something disgusting.
i think they weren't specifically talking about this case, but led into the hypothetical 'bullies deserve to be killed' argument, which seems to come up in almost every thread involving violence and school kids.
as much as i hate bullies, intentionally murdering anyone is a completely uncomparable level of unforgivable selfishness, evil and crazy. i think anyone who disagree's with this has a seriously flawed view on morality.
assume a bully makes 2-3 years of your life a living hell, if you kill them you're condemning yourself for at least 20 years, effectively ruining your life. not to mention your family and friends will never look at you in the same way... also, the family and friends of the deceased are completely innocent and will undoubtedly suffer for years thanks to the cowardly acts of the 'victim'.
these bully victims should realise there are likely thousands of kids worldwide who get picked on and bulled more than them, who feel equally helpless - but will go on to live successful and happy lives. meanwhile, the emo narcicistic weirdos think they'll make a difference by making a stand and killing their bully, with no thought about anyone but themselves.
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On February 29 2012 16:58 zalz wrote:
I think it would grace the people that told these victims that they "deserved it," to apologize.
You spoke out before the facts were in, you made horrible claims. Have a little spine and admit you were wrong and ended up saying something disgusting.
I fully agree with this. I spined up and admitted I had no good answer for capital punishment accidentally executing an innocent person. It's just pathetic these people can't admit they were wrong, and that they spoke out of turn based purely on assumption and conjecture.
I just saw the mother of one of the murdered kid's on TV...
Fucking heart breaking. Literally couldn't imagine that. Wake up one morning, take your son to school. Wake up the next, take him to his funeral.
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On March 01 2012 01:41 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 16:58 zalz wrote:
I think it would grace the people that told these victims that they "deserved it," to apologize.
You spoke out before the facts were in, you made horrible claims. Have a little spine and admit you were wrong and ended up saying something disgusting. I fully agree with this. I spined up and admitted I had no good answer for capital punishment accidentally executing an innocent person. It's just pathetic these people can't admit they were wrong, and that they spoke out of turn based purely on assumption and conjecture. I just saw the mother of one of the murdered kid's on TV... Fucking heart breaking. Literally couldn't imagine that. Wake up one morning, take your son to school. Wake up the next, take him to his funeral. Dude it wasn't my fault, the OP was shitty and all direction of any discussion comes from OP.
Since there was no bullying and such I admit I was wrong, the shooter deserves to be jailed for life.
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On February 29 2012 16:56 Fourn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 15:03 Hyuzak wrote:On February 29 2012 10:19 Phenom01 wrote:http://stateimpact.npr.org/ohio/2012/02/27/tragic-but-rare-odds-of-dying-in-a-school-shooting-as-in-chardon-at-least-one-in-a-million/To all of you so concerned about bullying and its effects, and to all of you who think rules and intervention will do anything about it in exchange for yet more of a students limited freedom and required subordination to arbitrary bureaucrats, first consider this statistic and tell me how much we need serious, proactive intervention against bullying. " In contrast, the odds that a child would die in school–by homicide or suicide–are, fortunately, no greater than 1 in 1 million." It seems our cultural climate is becoming more and more paranoid and less and less realistic, in our so called humanitarian and sympathetic pity we dont realize that you can take a fuckin' chance. I would take these odds any day. School shootings are not the only thing that bullying can cause. Depression, Suicide, low self esteem, etc are all major issues that can be caused from being bullied. Saying that we don't need to worry about bullying just because not very many people die from school shootings is stupid. This. Though I do not agree with the actions of the shooter and in no way are his actions justifiable, but it is definitely understandable. I know what it's like to be bullied and as a result have very low self esteem now, but I would never lash out at my attackers. Fighting back, IMO, is just as worse as bullying and makes you no better than them. This shooter is a scumbag, but he should have never been subjected to bullying in the first place and I feel bad for him (and his victims) because he's probably fucked up in the head as a result of bullying. Anyone against cracking down on bullying just because the odds of being killed in a school shooting are ridiculously high is a moron. School shootings are not the only result of bullying. I personally think that bullying should be made illegal, no questions asked. It fucks people up for their entire lives and I'm certainly fucked up in the head a little because of what I had to go through in middle and high school. Detention/Suspension clearly does not get the message across.
Read. The. Thread.
There are just as many accounts saying that the kid wasn't really bullied as there are accounts that say he was. No one really knows what his motives were (yet), so drawing the conclusion that he did this because he was bullied is asinine.
I don't think anyone in this thread has said that bullying isn't serious, it most definitely is. But it is not "understandable" that a kid murdered 3 of his peers and attempted to murder 2 more, even if he was bullied.
And your last paragraph is laughable. Illegal? On what basis? The overwhelming majority of bullying occurs between minors, what exactly will you accomplish by making it illegal, and who will investigate/prosecute for it? Where do you draw the line between poking fun at your friends and bullying? What is the penalty? Community service? Fines (lol)? Jail time?
It's up to the adults that spend time around these kids to figure out when bullying is occurring, how serious it is, and how best to resolve it. No one else.
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On February 29 2012 12:47 ampson wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 09:50 sunprince wrote:On February 29 2012 08:41 ampson wrote:But if you're merely a social outcast, it's probably your own fault. Yeah, it's totally your own fault if you're a social outcast. You're probably disabled, or gay, or atheist, or otherwise somehow different, and that's totally your responsibility to fix. /sarcasm Note that I said probably.
Probably is still wrong. People are social outcasts because they are simply different, and usually due to immutable characteristics. Humans are assholes like that.
On February 29 2012 12:47 ampson wrote:And in my experience, it's theists who are shunned more than atheists. Schools can vary, however.
Your anecdotal experience is not the norm. The majority of the United States is very much Christian. Only 15% of the United States population is atheist.
The degree of shunning is also very different. We don't get news reports of how Christians get beat up, ostracized, or discriminated against by atheists for refusing to pray, etc. No, what happens is that Christians hurt everybody else, whether it's bullying or outright violence. The worst that atheists do is make fun of theists for being morons. You can't compare the two.
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Remind me never to get shot should such tragedy happen in my school. Wouldn't want people to claim video games made bully out of me yet. Freaking media -_-
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On February 29 2012 16:56 Fourn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 15:03 Hyuzak wrote:On February 29 2012 10:19 Phenom01 wrote:http://stateimpact.npr.org/ohio/2012/02/27/tragic-but-rare-odds-of-dying-in-a-school-shooting-as-in-chardon-at-least-one-in-a-million/To all of you so concerned about bullying and its effects, and to all of you who think rules and intervention will do anything about it in exchange for yet more of a students limited freedom and required subordination to arbitrary bureaucrats, first consider this statistic and tell me how much we need serious, proactive intervention against bullying. " In contrast, the odds that a child would die in school–by homicide or suicide–are, fortunately, no greater than 1 in 1 million." It seems our cultural climate is becoming more and more paranoid and less and less realistic, in our so called humanitarian and sympathetic pity we dont realize that you can take a fuckin' chance. I would take these odds any day. School shootings are not the only thing that bullying can cause. Depression, Suicide, low self esteem, etc are all major issues that can be caused from being bullied. Saying that we don't need to worry about bullying just because not very many people die from school shootings is stupid. This. Though I do not agree with the actions of the shooter and in no way are his actions justifiable, but it is definitely understandable. I know what it's like to be bullied and as a result have very low self esteem now, but I would never lash out at my attackers. Fighting back, IMO, is just as worse as bullying and makes you no better than them. This shooter is a scumbag, but he should have never been subjected to bullying in the first place and I feel bad for him (and his victims) because he's probably fucked up in the head as a result of bullying. Anyone against cracking down on bullying just because the odds of being killed in a school shooting are ridiculously high is a moron. School shootings are not the only result of bullying. I personally think that bullying should be made illegal, no questions asked. It fucks people up for their entire lives and I'm certainly fucked up in the head a little because of what I had to go through in middle and high school. Detention/Suspension clearly does not get the message across.
If you really gave a shit about people being bullied you would actively seek out/ascertain which people were and by whom and actually intervene yourself, and im sure making something illegal would solve all the problems. Look what weve learned from every law ever made: more often than not it exascerbates the problem and imagine this, even makes it more common!
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On March 01 2012 05:52 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 12:47 ampson wrote:On February 29 2012 09:50 sunprince wrote:On February 29 2012 08:41 ampson wrote:But if you're merely a social outcast, it's probably your own fault. Yeah, it's totally your own fault if you're a social outcast. You're probably disabled, or gay, or atheist, or otherwise somehow different, and that's totally your responsibility to fix. /sarcasm Note that I said probably. Probably is still wrong. People are social outcasts because they are simply different, and usually due to immutable characteristics. Humans are assholes like that. Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 12:47 ampson wrote:And in my experience, it's theists who are shunned more than atheists. Schools can vary, however. Your anecdotal experience is not the norm. The majority of the United States is very much Christian. Only 15% of the United States population is atheist. The degree of shunning is also very different. We don't get news reports of how Christians get beat up, ostracized, or discriminated against by atheists for refusing to pray, etc. No, what happens is that Christians hurt everybody else, whether it's bullying or outright violence. The worst that atheists do is make fun of theists for being morons. You can't compare the two.
Lol, so there's never been a bully that's an atheist?
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This.
Though I do not agree with the actions of the shooter and in no way are his actions justifiable, but it is definitely understandable. I know what it's like to be bullied and as a result have very low self esteem now, but I would never lash out at my attackers. Fighting back, IMO, is just as worse as bullying and makes you no better than them. This shooter is a scumbag, but he should have never been subjected to bullying in the first place and I feel bad for him (and his victims) because he's probably fucked up in the head as a result of bullying.
Anyone against cracking down on bullying just because the odds of being killed in a school shooting are ridiculously high is a moron. School shootings are not the only result of bullying.
I personally think that bullying should be made illegal, no questions asked. It fucks people up for their entire lives and I'm certainly fucked up in the head a little because of what I had to go through in middle and hig
Ih school. Detention/Suspension clearly does not get the message across.
I don't think you understand the mentality of school shooters at all, or the circumstances in which they occur.
It isn't about bullying, its a power, or the lack of therof, and a personality that is unable to tolerate existing in a state of powerlessness.
I'm not trying to justify or decry their actions. All I'm saying is that any bullying that would be punishable under any system (Surely you're not going to punish rejection from social groups angry glares right or passive aggressiveness right?) is not what triggers these actions.
There are many individuals who are bullied, and almost all these individuals do not lash out in violent rage against society. It takes an individual who possesses a combination to varying degrees of personality traits such as paranoia, narcissism , sociopathy, and schizotypicality who when put in an enviroment of powerlessness within the schools social context, often the result of those aforementioned traits, who will lash out in violent and extreme measures.
Moreover, these individuals don't need to feel victimized. The trigger is a combination of emotional instability, poorly developed emotional maturity and powerlessness, not actual punishment by the social body.
"Bullying" describes neither the societal nor individual problems which cause school shootings to occur at all. In fact, I'd wager there might well be a inverse correlation between the frequency of bulling in public schools and school shootings. Correlation doesn't indicate causation of course, but it sure as hell doesn't support your perspective either.
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I mean just look at his facebook post, lol.
![[image loading]](http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_full_width_scaled/hash/c0/d3/Screen%20Shot%202012-02-27%20at%202.47.17%20PM.png)
I make no moral judgements. I don't believe in em. However, I do believe in analysis and you'd have to be blind not to see very prominently the four traits I just mentioned. And in that case it isn't bullying that set off the trigger. There is simply no way to interpret it that way. I don't even believe that the personality traits that caused this always manifest poorly in individuals. I'm sure we'd be bereft some of our greatest works of art poetry and literature without them. However, what happened happened, focus on the actual issues kthx :p.
edit:
I wonder if this 17 year old is consciously referring to the black death as a beneficient force for the serfs of europe by increasing class mobility and becoming partially responsible for eventually creating the only middle class europe has known for a thousand years. huh.
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On March 01 2012 07:15 DMBJonesy wrote:Lol, so there's never been a bully that's an atheist?
Are you trolling, or just really bad at reading comprehension?
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ugly psychopaths like this disgust me so much, no idea how someone could be willing to take anyone else life for any reason. Completely disgusting and pitiful o_O
We used to blame it on video games, marilyn
Now we blame it on bullying
How about blaming it on the actual person who pulled the trigger for once? O_O There was no bullying but even if there was the victims didn't deserve to die. Seriously.
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On March 01 2012 05:52 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 12:47 ampson wrote:On February 29 2012 09:50 sunprince wrote:On February 29 2012 08:41 ampson wrote:But if you're merely a social outcast, it's probably your own fault. Yeah, it's totally your own fault if you're a social outcast. You're probably disabled, or gay, or atheist, or otherwise somehow different, and that's totally your responsibility to fix. /sarcasm Note that I said probably. Probably is still wrong. People are social outcasts because they are simply different, and usually due to immutable characteristics. Humans are assholes like that. Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 12:47 ampson wrote:And in my experience, it's theists who are shunned more than atheists. Schools can vary, however. Your anecdotal experience is not the norm. The majority of the United States is very much Christian. Only 15% of the United States population is atheist. The degree of shunning is also very different. We don't get news reports of how Christians get beat up, ostracized, or discriminated against by atheists for refusing to pray, etc. No, what happens is that Christians hurt everybody else, whether it's bullying or outright violence. The worst that atheists do is make fun of theists for being morons. You can't compare the two.
I would ask you to provide non-anecdotal (i.e. something other than "we get news reports...") evidence for your claims. But I think we're far enough off topic and far enough into the territory of "personal axe to grind" already.
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On March 01 2012 12:57 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 05:52 sunprince wrote:On February 29 2012 12:47 ampson wrote:On February 29 2012 09:50 sunprince wrote:On February 29 2012 08:41 ampson wrote:But if you're merely a social outcast, it's probably your own fault. Yeah, it's totally your own fault if you're a social outcast. You're probably disabled, or gay, or atheist, or otherwise somehow different, and that's totally your responsibility to fix. /sarcasm Note that I said probably. Probably is still wrong. People are social outcasts because they are simply different, and usually due to immutable characteristics. Humans are assholes like that. On February 29 2012 12:47 ampson wrote:And in my experience, it's theists who are shunned more than atheists. Schools can vary, however. Your anecdotal experience is not the norm. The majority of the United States is very much Christian. Only 15% of the United States population is atheist. The degree of shunning is also very different. We don't get news reports of how Christians get beat up, ostracized, or discriminated against by atheists for refusing to pray, etc. No, what happens is that Christians hurt everybody else, whether it's bullying or outright violence. The worst that atheists do is make fun of theists for being morons. You can't compare the two. I would ask you to provide non-anecdotal (i.e. something other than "we get news reports...") evidence for your claims. But I think we're far enough off topic and far enough into the territory of "personal axe to grind" already.
non-anecdotal: http://www.gallup.com/poll/26611/some-americans-reluctant-vote-mormon-72yearold-presidential-candidates.aspx
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Take away the guns, take away the shootings.
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Little bit too much deja vu..
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On March 01 2012 13:29 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 12:57 HULKAMANIA wrote:On March 01 2012 05:52 sunprince wrote:On February 29 2012 12:47 ampson wrote:On February 29 2012 09:50 sunprince wrote:On February 29 2012 08:41 ampson wrote:But if you're merely a social outcast, it's probably your own fault. Yeah, it's totally your own fault if you're a social outcast. You're probably disabled, or gay, or atheist, or otherwise somehow different, and that's totally your responsibility to fix. /sarcasm Note that I said probably. Probably is still wrong. People are social outcasts because they are simply different, and usually due to immutable characteristics. Humans are assholes like that. On February 29 2012 12:47 ampson wrote:And in my experience, it's theists who are shunned more than atheists. Schools can vary, however. Your anecdotal experience is not the norm. The majority of the United States is very much Christian. Only 15% of the United States population is atheist. The degree of shunning is also very different. We don't get news reports of how Christians get beat up, ostracized, or discriminated against by atheists for refusing to pray, etc. No, what happens is that Christians hurt everybody else, whether it's bullying or outright violence. The worst that atheists do is make fun of theists for being morons. You can't compare the two. I would ask you to provide non-anecdotal (i.e. something other than "we get news reports...") evidence for your claims. But I think we're far enough off topic and far enough into the territory of "personal axe to grind" already. non-anecdotal: http://www.gallup.com/poll/26611/some-americans-reluctant-vote-mormon-72yearold-presidential-candidates.aspx
Evidence of what? That Christians "hurt everyone else" via "bullying" or "outright violence"?
Are we really trying to turn a discussion about a school shooting into another patented TL religion-thread funfest?
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On March 01 2012 12:57 HULKAMANIA wrote:I would ask you to provide non-anecdotal (i.e. something other than "we get news reports...") evidence for your claims. But I think we're far enough off topic and far enough into the territory of "personal axe to grind" already.
~52 percent of Americans would not vote for a well-qualified atheist presidential candidate. Atheists are the most hated minority group in America, with 40% of Americans expressing that atheists are a group that "does not at all agree with my vision of American society", well ahead of Muslims (34%) and African-Americans (27%). It's very obvious that despite the small amount of research on the issue, that atheists are a minority group that is discriminated against, and Christians are not.
By contrast, the Christian majority enjoys widespread popularity, enough so that every President ever has been Christian and enough that a majority of Americans don't even believe in evolution. Over the last century, religiously-motivated Christian terrorists have included the KKK and abortion clininc bombers such as the Army of God. Most hate against LGBTs in America also comes from Christians. Christians regularly push for legislation and legal structures that discriminate against everyone else, such as teaching Biblical creationism in schools, including the Ten Commandments on public structures, and allowing/requiring prayer in schools. What, you think just because we haven't done research on religion in kids that the social tables are turned completely upside down and the supermajority becomes the oppressed somehow?
Are seriously arguing that Christians are an oppressed/bullied group, or that atheists oppress them? I can't tell if you're really that uninformed or just trolling. You can find tons of cases where Christians as a group oppress, attack, and bully individuals who are not Christian by doing a simple Google search. Hell, you can even find evidence of Christian groups doing their best to protect Christian bullies. By contrast, I challenge you to provide a single case where atheists as a group oppress or bully others.
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So, apparently the going rate for murder now is about 4 years. The courts are charging him as a juvenile, which means if convicted he will stay in juvy until he reaches the age of 21. How pathetic... At his age you know the serious consequences of murder.
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EPT
