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Good-Guy Tyler, explains situation and publicly apologizes. ^_^
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On January 31 2012 11:01 GrungyMunchy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 10:49 nGBeast wrote:On January 31 2012 10:48 NoCatsCradle wrote:
Pretty unprofessional behavior by Tyler.
I wonder if this incident will prevent tournament organizers from inviting him in the future. Give me a fucking break, all you people who were bitching in the other thread about Tyler FF is not the same as Stephano FF a finals match. Community starting unneeded drama as always. Apparently that guy just registered to bitch about the TL writeup. Don't give him attention.
And after fulfilling that specific purpose, he developed interests in other areas of discussion.
Can you really blame him? He only wants to be a well-rounded human being.
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On January 31 2012 12:04 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 12:01 LuckyFool wrote:On January 31 2012 11:55 turdburgler wrote:On January 31 2012 11:54 tsuxiit wrote:
This thread shouldn't even exist. Tyler forfeiting the first round of this tournament isn't notable; the only reason we're even discussing it is because Hot_Bid made a post about Stephano and some moron tried to call him out about not talking about TL members forfeiting things. The reaction is totally disproportional to the offense. the only people being disproportionate are the army of white knights coming to to tylers defence. the OP asked a question in a reasonable and manner way, and tyler replied. its only tylers defenders who are getting stressed out about this. On January 31 2012 11:54 LuckyFool wrote:On January 31 2012 11:49 The Void wrote:
This thread IS necessary!
If the other one is. (and it is) Why? The two things are so insanely different in magnitude I think it's absurd to try to even compare them. Its like comparing a minor scratch on a windshield to car getting totaled. minor scratches on windshields dramatically reduce their strength and are a major safety hazard, turned out your metaphor was pretty good after all lol? I think this thread is a complete waste of space and unnecessary. Should we start a thread for every first round withdrawal out of every event when a player has an unseen conflict arise? dont make metaphors if you dont know what your talking about then. secondly, its not a "first round" he didnt enter this. it was a community invitational. this is the whole reason stephano is getting shit on for his choice. that being said, this isnt an issue, tyler was ill, thats ok. but that doesnt mean to say people cant ask.
His metaphor was apt, you just overextended it. There will never be a 1:1 relationship between a metaphor and its referent. A metaphor is only as useful as its ability to communicate one or two similar properties, it is not expected to be similar in every way.
I honestly can't believe how quickly people will latch onto any perceived weakness in an 'opponents' message in order to 'win'. Any reasonable person can see how you are intentionally missing the point.
How are the situations different? The main difference is scale: one is a group match that few people care about, one is a finals that around 20k people were waiting for. Does this violate your naive absolutist principles? Good luck surviving in a complex world.
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Well he could be lying obviously.Doesnt matter.So ff is ok if its no further then semis.Right, no similarities at all.
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This is getting out of hand.
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Stuff comes up. It happens in sports all the time. People can get sick.
This will happen again. Probably not from Tyler, but it will happen again.
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On January 31 2012 12:04 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 12:01 LuckyFool wrote:On January 31 2012 11:55 turdburgler wrote:On January 31 2012 11:54 tsuxiit wrote:
This thread shouldn't even exist. Tyler forfeiting the first round of this tournament isn't notable; the only reason we're even discussing it is because Hot_Bid made a post about Stephano and some moron tried to call him out about not talking about TL members forfeiting things. The reaction is totally disproportional to the offense. the only people being disproportionate are the army of white knights coming to to tylers defence. the OP asked a question in a reasonable and manner way, and tyler replied. its only tylers defenders who are getting stressed out about this. On January 31 2012 11:54 LuckyFool wrote:On January 31 2012 11:49 The Void wrote:
This thread IS necessary!
If the other one is. (and it is) Why? The two things are so insanely different in magnitude I think it's absurd to try to even compare them. Its like comparing a minor scratch on a windshield to car getting totaled. minor scratches on windshields dramatically reduce their strength and are a major safety hazard, turned out your metaphor was pretty good after all lol? I think this thread is a complete waste of space and unnecessary. Should we start a thread for every first round withdrawal out of every event when a player has an unseen conflict arise? dont make metaphors if you dont know what your talking about then. secondly, its not a "first round" he didnt enter this. it was a community invitational. this is the whole reason stephano is getting shit on for his choice. that being said, this isnt an issue, tyler was ill, thats ok. but that doesnt mean to say people cant ask.
Arguing semantics is useless. First round, group stage, all the same thing.
Stephano is getting shit on because he made it to the finals and gave ONOG essentially an ultimatum (which IMO is bullshit and downright disrespectful) that was unreasonable. What makes it even worse is that Kas stayed up just as late to play his matches and made no similar ultimatums and essentially was praised (there's a blog written by one of the observers speaking about Kas) for his easy to work with attitude. Stephano comes out of this looking like a diva.
And the creation of this thread is more likely than not to spur resentment at the Stephano criticism over in the other thread. It is a poor attempt at making an argument supporting Stephano by stating, "well...you know... someone else technically forfeited too!!" The whole point hotbid was trying to make regarding TL's not making a thread about Tyler's forfeit is what was said earlier in this thread: Forfeiting a finals is a big fucking deal; forfeiting group stages is not.
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On January 31 2012 12:01 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 11:54 kochujang wrote:On January 31 2012 11:47 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 11:45 kochujang wrote:On January 31 2012 11:43 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 11:41 kochujang wrote:On January 31 2012 11:35 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 11:31 kochujang wrote:On January 31 2012 10:56 memcpy wrote:On January 31 2012 10:49 nGBeast wrote:
[quote]
Give me a fucking break, all you people who were bitching in the other thread about Tyler FF is not the same as Stephano FF a finals match.
Community starting unneeded drama as always. At what point exactly does it become ok to forfeit? Group play, ro16, ro8, ro4, finals? It is never ok to forfeit. Just like it is not ok to miss a doctors appointment or exams. The consequences may vary depending on the level of importance. Of course I can stop writing in the middle of an exam and walk out of the door. And I will get exactly the appropriate points for the correct solutions I have filled in up to that point. And I won't be deducted any points for walking out 1 answer short. Um... you know, your analogy can be interpreted in many different ways, like Idra would gg/walk out prematurely. I think you have misunderstood what I was trying to tell. Miss exams-> flunk, miss doctors appointment->make a new one. Yes, and Stephano didn't miss the tournament. He showed up and reached the finals. He then walked out of the door. Same as showing up to the exam and leaving early. Lol, I give up. You never really argued against it, but fair enough. You completely disregard the fact he participated in 99% of the tournament, and draw parallels to "not even showing up". I wanted to give an example of importance, not action. The analogy was unfortunate, because I drew unintended parallels. I never stated if an action is ok or not, but the consequences are bigger/smaller on the level of importance. What I wanted to say, is if the level of importance is relevant to forfeiting. E.g. in FXO KOTH some players forfeit, and new players are replaced (or not) on the fly without any repercussion or break of the flow. Tyler did it in a group stage in a tournament, Stephano in the finals. What about qualifiers? We see forfeits there also. Is it important enough? Does it depend on the viewers? Now we're getting there. I for one don't hold any qualms with Idra, Naniwa, Stephano, White-Ra or Tyler for forfeiting at various stages. I am also not bothered with events worrying about their own profit and publicity. No show --> no event --> no money --> no players --> no show. It's a circle. The problem is exactly what you have asked in bold. Virtually any written rule about forfeiting no matter how it is formulated will be more beneficial for all parties involved than it is right now with every tournament either not bothering at all or inventing rules on the fly (and maybe deciding entirely different the next time)
Rules are definitely needed, I think everybody can agree on this. The rules must be defined though, and penalties for not adhering to the rules must be defined. Should a forfeit be punished equally, regardless of what stage of the tournament it happens? Should the impact a forfeit has on the tournament have any effect on the size of the punishment? Can there be exceptions? If the match is not streamed, will this lessen the punishment of forfeiting?
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On January 31 2012 12:11 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 12:04 turdburgler wrote:On January 31 2012 12:01 LuckyFool wrote:On January 31 2012 11:55 turdburgler wrote:On January 31 2012 11:54 tsuxiit wrote:
This thread shouldn't even exist. Tyler forfeiting the first round of this tournament isn't notable; the only reason we're even discussing it is because Hot_Bid made a post about Stephano and some moron tried to call him out about not talking about TL members forfeiting things. The reaction is totally disproportional to the offense. the only people being disproportionate are the army of white knights coming to to tylers defence. the OP asked a question in a reasonable and manner way, and tyler replied. its only tylers defenders who are getting stressed out about this. On January 31 2012 11:54 LuckyFool wrote:On January 31 2012 11:49 The Void wrote:
This thread IS necessary!
If the other one is. (and it is) Why? The two things are so insanely different in magnitude I think it's absurd to try to even compare them. Its like comparing a minor scratch on a windshield to car getting totaled. minor scratches on windshields dramatically reduce their strength and are a major safety hazard, turned out your metaphor was pretty good after all lol? I think this thread is a complete waste of space and unnecessary. Should we start a thread for every first round withdrawal out of every event when a player has an unseen conflict arise? dont make metaphors if you dont know what your talking about then. secondly, its not a "first round" he didnt enter this. it was a community invitational. this is the whole reason stephano is getting shit on for his choice. that being said, this isnt an issue, tyler was ill, thats ok. but that doesnt mean to say people cant ask. His metaphor was apt, you just overextended it. There will never be a 1:1 relationship between a metaphor and its referent. A metaphor is only as useful as its ability to communicate one or two similar properties, it is not expected to be similar in every way. I honestly can't believe how quickly people will latch onto any perceived weakness in an 'opponents' message in order to 'win'. Any reasonable person can see how you are intentionally missing the point. How are the situations different? The main difference is scale: one is a group match that few people care about, one is a finals that around 20k people were waiting for. Does this violate your naive absolutist principles? Good luck surviving in a complex world.
not playing your groups out has a major impact on the rest of the tourney especially when your in the same groups, like i already said. for all we know, if tyler played his games stephano would never of made it out of the group. buutt nevermind
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The difference between Tyler's situation and Stephano's situation is: Tyler did not purposefully screw over ONOG. Obviously, as Tyler stated himself, his actions were unjust. However, Stephano (from the information we have), feels little remorse and cost ONOG several viewers when leaving.
In all seriousness, ONOG could win a law suit against Stephano. The problem being, each side would waste more money in the courts... (and the whole foreign countries thing...)
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On January 31 2012 12:16 Bayyne wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 12:04 turdburgler wrote:On January 31 2012 12:01 LuckyFool wrote:On January 31 2012 11:55 turdburgler wrote:On January 31 2012 11:54 tsuxiit wrote:
This thread shouldn't even exist. Tyler forfeiting the first round of this tournament isn't notable; the only reason we're even discussing it is because Hot_Bid made a post about Stephano and some moron tried to call him out about not talking about TL members forfeiting things. The reaction is totally disproportional to the offense. the only people being disproportionate are the army of white knights coming to to tylers defence. the OP asked a question in a reasonable and manner way, and tyler replied. its only tylers defenders who are getting stressed out about this. On January 31 2012 11:54 LuckyFool wrote:On January 31 2012 11:49 The Void wrote:
This thread IS necessary!
If the other one is. (and it is) Why? The two things are so insanely different in magnitude I think it's absurd to try to even compare them. Its like comparing a minor scratch on a windshield to car getting totaled. minor scratches on windshields dramatically reduce their strength and are a major safety hazard, turned out your metaphor was pretty good after all lol? I think this thread is a complete waste of space and unnecessary. Should we start a thread for every first round withdrawal out of every event when a player has an unseen conflict arise? dont make metaphors if you dont know what your talking about then. secondly, its not a "first round" he didnt enter this. it was a community invitational. this is the whole reason stephano is getting shit on for his choice. that being said, this isnt an issue, tyler was ill, thats ok. but that doesnt mean to say people cant ask. Arguing semantics is useless. First round, group stage, all the same thing. Stephano is getting shit on because he made it to the finals and gave ONOG essentially an ultimatum (which IMO is bullshit and downright disrespectful) that was unreasonable. What makes it even worse is that Kas stayed up just as late to play his matches and made no similar ultimatums and essentially was praised (there's a blog written by one of the observers speaking about Kas) for his easy to work with attitude. Stephano comes out of this looking like a diva. And the creation of this thread is more likely than not to spur resentment at the Stephano criticism over in the other thread. It is a poor attempt at making an argument supporting Stephano by stating, "we'll someone else technically forfeited too!!" The whole point hotbid was trying to make regarding TL's not making a thread about Tyler's forfeit is what was said earlier in this thread: Forfeiting a finals is a big fucking deal; forfeiting group stages is not.
And still there is no answer on how to handle it principally. The only responses to such a concern is "well, we'll see when it happens!" And wing a decision again. And another time one player gets stripped of 200$ for pulling out of the round of 8. And another time nothing happens. And it is perfectly fine to leave it at that?
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On January 31 2012 12:17 kochujang wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 12:01 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 11:54 kochujang wrote:On January 31 2012 11:47 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 11:45 kochujang wrote:On January 31 2012 11:43 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 11:41 kochujang wrote:On January 31 2012 11:35 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 11:31 kochujang wrote:On January 31 2012 10:56 memcpy wrote:
[quote]
At what point exactly does it become ok to forfeit? Group play, ro16, ro8, ro4, finals?
It is never ok to forfeit. Just like it is not ok to miss a doctors appointment or exams. The consequences may vary depending on the level of importance. Of course I can stop writing in the middle of an exam and walk out of the door. And I will get exactly the appropriate points for the correct solutions I have filled in up to that point. And I won't be deducted any points for walking out 1 answer short. Um... you know, your analogy can be interpreted in many different ways, like Idra would gg/walk out prematurely. I think you have misunderstood what I was trying to tell. Miss exams-> flunk, miss doctors appointment->make a new one. Yes, and Stephano didn't miss the tournament. He showed up and reached the finals. He then walked out of the door. Same as showing up to the exam and leaving early. Lol, I give up. You never really argued against it, but fair enough. You completely disregard the fact he participated in 99% of the tournament, and draw parallels to "not even showing up". I wanted to give an example of importance, not action. The analogy was unfortunate, because I drew unintended parallels. I never stated if an action is ok or not, but the consequences are bigger/smaller on the level of importance. What I wanted to say, is if the level of importance is relevant to forfeiting. E.g. in FXO KOTH some players forfeit, and new players are replaced (or not) on the fly without any repercussion or break of the flow. Tyler did it in a group stage in a tournament, Stephano in the finals. What about qualifiers? We see forfeits there also. Is it important enough? Does it depend on the viewers? Now we're getting there. I for one don't hold any qualms with Idra, Naniwa, Stephano, White-Ra or Tyler for forfeiting at various stages. I am also not bothered with events worrying about their own profit and publicity. No show --> no event --> no money --> no players --> no show. It's a circle. The problem is exactly what you have asked in bold. Virtually any written rule about forfeiting no matter how it is formulated will be more beneficial for all parties involved than it is right now with every tournament either not bothering at all or inventing rules on the fly (and maybe deciding entirely different the next time) Rules are definitely needed, I think everybody can agree on this. The rules must be defined though, and penalties for not adhering to the rules must be defined. Should a forfeit be punished equally, regardless of what stage of the tournament it happens? Should the impact a forfeit has on the tournament have any effect on the size of the punishment? Can there be exceptions? If the match is not streamed, will this lessen the punishment of forfeiting?
It doesn't have to be that complicated. Forfeiture = removal from tournament = no placement and no prize and no other punishment necessary. Forfeiting in early stages would then have a relatively soft punishment (only punishment is forgoing the expected value of playing) while forfeiting deep will have a correspondingly harsher punishment. There should be exceptions when possible for emergencies but there will always have to be a judgement call and its best when contained to a small, well defined area.
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On January 31 2012 12:20 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 12:16 Bayyne wrote:On January 31 2012 12:04 turdburgler wrote:On January 31 2012 12:01 LuckyFool wrote:On January 31 2012 11:55 turdburgler wrote:On January 31 2012 11:54 tsuxiit wrote:
This thread shouldn't even exist. Tyler forfeiting the first round of this tournament isn't notable; the only reason we're even discussing it is because Hot_Bid made a post about Stephano and some moron tried to call him out about not talking about TL members forfeiting things. The reaction is totally disproportional to the offense. the only people being disproportionate are the army of white knights coming to to tylers defence. the OP asked a question in a reasonable and manner way, and tyler replied. its only tylers defenders who are getting stressed out about this. On January 31 2012 11:54 LuckyFool wrote:On January 31 2012 11:49 The Void wrote:
This thread IS necessary!
If the other one is. (and it is) Why? The two things are so insanely different in magnitude I think it's absurd to try to even compare them. Its like comparing a minor scratch on a windshield to car getting totaled. minor scratches on windshields dramatically reduce their strength and are a major safety hazard, turned out your metaphor was pretty good after all lol? I think this thread is a complete waste of space and unnecessary. Should we start a thread for every first round withdrawal out of every event when a player has an unseen conflict arise? dont make metaphors if you dont know what your talking about then. secondly, its not a "first round" he didnt enter this. it was a community invitational. this is the whole reason stephano is getting shit on for his choice. that being said, this isnt an issue, tyler was ill, thats ok. but that doesnt mean to say people cant ask. Arguing semantics is useless. First round, group stage, all the same thing. Stephano is getting shit on because he made it to the finals and gave ONOG essentially an ultimatum (which IMO is bullshit and downright disrespectful) that was unreasonable. What makes it even worse is that Kas stayed up just as late to play his matches and made no similar ultimatums and essentially was praised (there's a blog written by one of the observers speaking about Kas) for his easy to work with attitude. Stephano comes out of this looking like a diva. And the creation of this thread is more likely than not to spur resentment at the Stephano criticism over in the other thread. It is a poor attempt at making an argument supporting Stephano by stating, "we'll someone else technically forfeited too!!" The whole point hotbid was trying to make regarding TL's not making a thread about Tyler's forfeit is what was said earlier in this thread: Forfeiting a finals is a big fucking deal; forfeiting group stages is not. And still there is no answer on how to handle it principally. The only responses to such a concern is "well, we'll see when it happens!" And wing a decision again. And another time one player gets stripped of 200$ for pulling out of the round of 8. And another time nothing happens. And it is perfectly fine to leave it at that?
When there is no central governing body that has authority to levy penalties on players/tournaments, or to establish uniform rules across ALL tournaments, then yes we will see decisions made on the spot. And to be honest, ONOG's spur of the moment decision was a good one.
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lol difference between tyler and stephano (other then not being in finals).
Tyler even with whatever medical thing that affected him (I don't think he would lie) admits it was unprofessional and what not while stephano is like "I don't understand why people are mad at me" lol...
I still don't think tyler forfeiting was a big deal anyway if he was in the finals it would be but yeah...
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On January 31 2012 12:19 quaffle wrote:
The difference between Tyler's situation and Stephano's situation is: Tyler did not purposefully screw over ONOG. Obviously, as Tyler stated himself, his actions were unjust. However, Stephano (from the information we have), feels little remorse and cost ONOG several viewers when leaving.
In all seriousness, ONOG could win a law suit against Stephano. The problem being, each side would waste more money in the courts... (and the whole foreign countries thing...)
ONOG could win a lawsuit against Stephano for sure. Stephano broke the terms of their contract.
Oh wait? There was no contract? Hm.
And what about that whole foreign countries thing? You know... the thing with the foreign countries and jurisdictions? I'm pretty sure that would be super important if there were a contract to begin with.
Maybe we can fine stephano in e-sports dollars.
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On January 31 2012 12:06 TheTurk wrote:
Good-Guy Tyler, explains situation and publicly apologizes. ^_^
After people start questioning the reason why. If the Stephano post never came up I bet we still wouldn't have heard from Tyler. But whatevs it was just the generic excuse I figured it would be "I was sick, cough cough"
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On January 31 2012 12:17 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 12:11 zefreak wrote:On January 31 2012 12:04 turdburgler wrote:On January 31 2012 12:01 LuckyFool wrote:On January 31 2012 11:55 turdburgler wrote:On January 31 2012 11:54 tsuxiit wrote:
This thread shouldn't even exist. Tyler forfeiting the first round of this tournament isn't notable; the only reason we're even discussing it is because Hot_Bid made a post about Stephano and some moron tried to call him out about not talking about TL members forfeiting things. The reaction is totally disproportional to the offense. the only people being disproportionate are the army of white knights coming to to tylers defence. the OP asked a question in a reasonable and manner way, and tyler replied. its only tylers defenders who are getting stressed out about this. On January 31 2012 11:54 LuckyFool wrote:On January 31 2012 11:49 The Void wrote:
This thread IS necessary!
If the other one is. (and it is) Why? The two things are so insanely different in magnitude I think it's absurd to try to even compare them. Its like comparing a minor scratch on a windshield to car getting totaled. minor scratches on windshields dramatically reduce their strength and are a major safety hazard, turned out your metaphor was pretty good after all lol? I think this thread is a complete waste of space and unnecessary. Should we start a thread for every first round withdrawal out of every event when a player has an unseen conflict arise? dont make metaphors if you dont know what your talking about then. secondly, its not a "first round" he didnt enter this. it was a community invitational. this is the whole reason stephano is getting shit on for his choice. that being said, this isnt an issue, tyler was ill, thats ok. but that doesnt mean to say people cant ask. His metaphor was apt, you just overextended it. There will never be a 1:1 relationship between a metaphor and its referent. A metaphor is only as useful as its ability to communicate one or two similar properties, it is not expected to be similar in every way. I honestly can't believe how quickly people will latch onto any perceived weakness in an 'opponents' message in order to 'win'. Any reasonable person can see how you are intentionally missing the point. How are the situations different? The main difference is scale: one is a group match that few people care about, one is a finals that around 20k people were waiting for. Does this violate your naive absolutist principles? Good luck surviving in a complex world. not playing your groups out has a major impact on the rest of the tourney especially when your in the same groups, like i already said. for all we know, if tyler played his games stephano would never of made it out of the group. buutt nevermind
You're right that as a hypothetical the outcome of the tournament as a whole can change, but at the same time, the group stages generally don't draw that much of a crowd to start with (just look at the MLG numbers). How many times has it been said that the finals of a tournament are what make or break the overall feel? NASL Season 1 could have been considered a disaster had MC and Puma not put on one of the best series ever. Look at what ONoG had lined up, an epic potential fight between Kas and Stephano, but instead they had to change it due to one player's choice.
And on another note, Stephano knew this was a potential problem when signing up for two tournaments. Tyler on the other hand probably was not planning to get a medical problem all of a sudden during the tournament. And yet here is Tyler still apologizing for his lack of professionalism while Stephano just looks the other way.
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lol there's a difference between Tyler and Stephano right now -.- Tyler = immediately apologetic, Stephano = whats the big deal... even if their offenses the same, the responses tell stories
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On January 31 2012 12:26 CeriseCherries wrote:
lol there's a difference between Tyler and Stephano right now -.- Tyler = immediately apologetic, Stephano = whats the big deal... even if their offenses the same, the responses tell stories
What? Immediately? C'mon man, his apology was not immediate, far from it. He apologized after people started asking questions.
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On January 31 2012 12:25 magnaflow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 12:06 TheTurk wrote:
Good-Guy Tyler, explains situation and publicly apologizes. ^_^ After people start questioning the reason why. If the Stephano post never came up I bet we still wouldn't have heard from Tyler. But whatevs it was just the generic excuse I figured it would be "I was sick, cough cough"
I doubt that, he would have for sure been asked about it during State of the Game. At the same time, is it really our business to know that he had a medical problem during the tournament? At the same time, don't call out the people who have had solid reputations for the longest time. I don't mean this as Tyler fanboyism, but in the TeamLiquid community, after you have contributed as much as Tyler has, I highly doubt that this is just "some excuse".
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EPT
