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On December 15 2011 04:29 msl wrote:Show nested quote +Caltu wrote:
The competition in question has yet to start. Its not like its the Ro4 and they are deciding to drop them. Maybe then its alot more questionable I was refering to GSL as a whole, not a specific season. Basicly it boils down to this: Either an organisation like GOM has something akin to rule of law, where known rules and pronciples are applied, or it makes stuff up as it goes along, in which case it isn't really a legitimate competion.
I personally think its all about being the top competition in the world. They want it to be about the top and most "classy" league in the world.
I will always remember moments likes Nestea under confetti, MMA at Blizzcon.
If they have a feeling the person is in it for money rather than prestige [The main reason for this] They can hold that right. Like a classy golf club
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On December 15 2011 04:34 gwixter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:26 Peleus wrote:
God I can't believe how retarded some TL users are being about this.
a) Naniwa clearly deliberately threw the game. Right or wrong aside can we all at least agree on that? Sending 7 probes to your base is not going to win, I know it, you know it, a silver leaguer knows it. how do you know that naniwa knew that as well at that time?? maybe he honestly thought that he can somewhat surprise nestea and win ... who knows is there a rule for that? or you just think it's not right to do that? are we gonna restrict the way how players play their games? what's next? no attacks before 4min mark? it's really thin ice we are now on ....
Give Naniwa some credit, he is not in the lower part of bronze league. He knows you cannot win with by a moving all your probes into your opponents base with your mouse without using any micro if your opponent is a progamer. You can dispute plenty of things, but you cannot dispute that Nani knew he couldn't win by doing that.
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On December 15 2011 04:33 dib wrote:
as long as he isnt in code s its all good. he doesnt deserve it.
Ah, so skill doesn't matter to you, just their moral compass and reputation.
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On December 15 2011 04:15 whereyouat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:09 ShepherdC wrote:
I'm sorry, but am I missing something? It seems like this statement is still calling Naniwa an amateur. Anyone with even a modicum of skill at understanding diplomatic language recognizes that this is a punishment, and Mr. Chae is calling Naniwa an unprofessional money hunter in his inference that because Naniwa didn't have an opportunity to make money he didn't play to win a match.
What's more, Mr. Chae is claiming that pro-gamers entire vocation should be for the victory (merits will be ignored). I have to ask what victory when you're unprofessional tournament yields nothing games? The idea that every match should be played to win is ridiculous. You often play a fast match where you have poor odds (due to opponent, map, etc) to save energy for later matches. Hell, players ALLL the time GG out of a game that is by no means over because they are too far down in position. (And I don't mean dramatically like Idra, everyone does it) The only dishonor here is GOM for putting together a tournament that would put players in such unfortunate positions.
Tournament format does not matter!! Being put in these situations does not matter!! If your a progamer and your put in any situation regarding your game you should ACT like a professional, suck it up, focus on the game you are currently playing and play it. The difference between pros and naniwa is pros don't let emotions run them down so badly that they just GIVE UP COMPLETELY. Seriously what is that? Giving up while being televised, in front of thousands is what you want in a person who calls himself a professional? Man im seriously losing hope in our foreigner community if we justify GIVING UP in our players. WHAT A DISGRACE.
It's really sad seeing people condemn others in such a way, and trying to force their opinions onto them.
Although I personally disagree with the decision, GomTV can do whatever they want, with their tournament, and anyone else can either like it, or not, but who are you, to tell other people how they should live their lifes?
Diversity in thinking and acting of different people should be respected...
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On December 15 2011 04:34 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:32 MayorITC wrote:
Naniwa NEVER had a Code S spot.
Please stop using the terms revoke, qualified, or anything else that insinuates he has/had a Code S spot. He was considered as a candidate for one of the two Code S foreigner invites. Actually MLG is looking into it. GOM doesn't owe Naniwa anything. But it does owe MLG its Code S spot. If anyone has a right to be angry, it's MLG, because GOM just broke their contractual agreement to take MLG's Top Non-Code S player into Code S (provided he or she is Top 3).
Yes, I'm the one that brought it fucking attention that MLG is looking into it in this thread.
And as of yet, they haven't stated that GomTV violated the contract. So no, GomTV doesn't owe MLG anything (as of yet).
On December 15 2011 04:33 Vardant wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:32 MayorITC wrote:
Naniwa NEVER had a Code S spot.
Please stop using the terms revoke, qualified, or anything else that insinuates he has/had a Code S spot. He was considered as a candidate for one of the two Code S foreigner invites. We have two different sources, that say otherwise. One is Mr. Chae himself. You're wrong.
Please enlighten me as to who the other source is that states that I'm wrong. Because MLG hasn't gone against Mr. Chae's statement.
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On December 15 2011 04:19 paulinepain wrote:Naniwa behavior is not really a source of good income for GOM I have to admit  , it's a decision that at least will not make them lose money. We shouldn't talk too much about moral and value in a scene that is now fully powered by money.
I'm pretty sure the foreign viewership has a bigger part in keeping GOM running compared to the korean viewership, but that would just be a guess. If anything events like these make GSL more exciting for foreign viewers, not that i would want this to happen a lot but still. Something had to change from this but removing naniwa without giving him a warning was a bad move. GSL may be in Korea but its huge fan base is outside of it and it bugs me that they can do stuff like this, they could have handled this situation much more professionally.
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On December 15 2011 04:36 PanN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:33 dib wrote:
as long as he isnt in code s its all good. he doesnt deserve it. Ah, so skill doesn't matter to you, just their moral compass and reputation.
I do hope a good player can also conduct himself professionally. This is the exact point Mr. Chae was making in the front page.
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On December 15 2011 04:34 bananafone wrote:
GOM is running an entertainment company that gets money from people seeing interesting and entertaining games (coincidentally played by the worlds best players). NaNiwa is sitting in a house practicing for 12 hours daily. He does this because organizations like GOM arrange tournaments with real prize money and lots of viewers so the sport as a whole can get exposure. This exposure is in various ways translated into cash witch is what this is really all about. GOM has certain standards for the quality of entertainment they present to the viewers. Obviously they are going to protect their own product furiously, if they didn't they would not be where they are today. Dronerushing is obviously not part of the GOM-experience and as such GOM has to do something to guarantee that it won't be part of their prime product(code s).
Whether NaNiwa or anyone else likes it or not he is not just a pro-gamer he is also an entertainer. Having a bad day and giving it your bare minimum is alright. Not trying at all is a completely different matter. NaNiwa is where he is thanks to people like the ones running GOM. Ignoring that work by not bothering to spend less than 10 minutes to create a reasonably interesting game for people to watch is unprofessional. Not as an SC2pro(because his work was done for that day), but as an entertainer. if they crave so much for broadcasted games, why they skip meaningless matches in Up&Down groups? shouldn't they have skipped this one also then?
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On December 15 2011 04:36 PanN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:33 dib wrote:
as long as he isnt in code s its all good. he doesnt deserve it. Ah, so skill doesn't matter to you, just their moral compass and reputation.
Well... this is not a problem of skill, but just to address the point. Nani has failed many times to qualify through Code A, even when that seed was given freely. So no, he hasn't shown Code S level, despite doing well in MLG.
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thank you so much about the result and paste.
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On December 15 2011 04:34 opticalza wrote:
I am really confused.
What Naniwa did was not the right thing to do, but are there any rules against it? How can GSL go back on their agreement with MLG to award the highest placing contender at an MLG with a code S spot without some kind of clause or ruling that everyone was aware of beforehand?
If there were such a rule or agreement then this is entirely appropriate, but by the sounds of things there wasn't, and if I were Naniwa or Quantic, I would be outraged and frustrated at GOM for this. Seems very unprofessional to me, and I hope someone clears this up.
What he did was not the right thing to do in a country where that is looked down on and by what he did I don't mean worker rush I mean not even attempting to play a game and be a professional.
Also providence didn't award him a code S spot for some reason. He was being considered for a code S spot by being in the blizzard cup and then they decided to take that back and give it to IdrA and Sen
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On December 15 2011 04:35 Teriyaki-Boy wrote:
I don't understand why, people are defending him for acting in such a way and trying to justified the game mean nothing....The game does mean something to the viewers and the fans of Naniwa and Nestea. People need to understand this is a business of entertainment and GOM wanna put out great content for their viewers and E-Sport to grow. I have to agree with the punishment, only caring for your own personal feeling and disregard your jobs is truly unprofessional.
I'll try this again:
You don't have to think naniwar was right to think GOM is wrong. Naniwar acted stupid.
GOM in return acted highhanded and unjust by handing out a severe punishment not covered by their own rules for said stupid behaviour.
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On December 15 2011 04:36 MayorITC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:34 FairForever wrote:On December 15 2011 04:32 MayorITC wrote:
Naniwa NEVER had a Code S spot.
Please stop using the terms revoke, qualified, or anything else that insinuates he has/had a Code S spot. He was considered as a candidate for one of the two Code S foreigner invites. Actually MLG is looking into it. GOM doesn't owe Naniwa anything. But it does owe MLG its Code S spot. If anyone has a right to be angry, it's MLG, because GOM just broke their contractual agreement to take MLG's Top Non-Code S player into Code S (provided he or she is Top 3). Yes, I'm the one that brought it fucking attention that MLG is looking into it in this thread. And as of yet, they haven't stated that GomTV violated the contract. So no, GomTV doesn't owe MLG anything (as of yet). Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:33 Vardant wrote:On December 15 2011 04:32 MayorITC wrote:
Naniwa NEVER had a Code S spot.
Please stop using the terms revoke, qualified, or anything else that insinuates he has/had a Code S spot. He was considered as a candidate for one of the two Code S foreigner invites. We have two different sources, that say otherwise. One is Mr. Chae himself. You're wrong. Please enlighten me as to who the other source is that states that I'm wrong. Because MLG hasn't gone against Mr. Chae's statement.
Just read the first post in this thread?
It clearly says, that Naniwa had the spot, but it was taken away.
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On December 15 2011 04:37 gwixter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:34 bananafone wrote:
GOM is running an entertainment company that gets money from people seeing interesting and entertaining games (coincidentally played by the worlds best players). NaNiwa is sitting in a house practicing for 12 hours daily. He does this because organizations like GOM arrange tournaments with real prize money and lots of viewers so the sport as a whole can get exposure. This exposure is in various ways translated into cash witch is what this is really all about. GOM has certain standards for the quality of entertainment they present to the viewers. Obviously they are going to protect their own product furiously, if they didn't they would not be where they are today. Dronerushing is obviously not part of the GOM-experience and as such GOM has to do something to guarantee that it won't be part of their prime product(code s).
Whether NaNiwa or anyone else likes it or not he is not just a pro-gamer he is also an entertainer. Having a bad day and giving it your bare minimum is alright. Not trying at all is a completely different matter. NaNiwa is where he is thanks to people like the ones running GOM. Ignoring that work by not bothering to spend less than 10 minutes to create a reasonably interesting game for people to watch is unprofessional. Not as an SC2pro(because his work was done for that day), but as an entertainer. if they crave so much for broadcasted games, why they skip meaningless matches in Up&Down groups? shouldn't they have skipped this one also then?
Difference between the most prestigious tourney of the year and a highly anticipated grudge match than UP and DOWN groups.
People were extremely disappointed at the possibility that GOM skipped the match in the LR threads. I'm sure this sentiment rang true for most viewers.
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This is honestly the first thing that GOM has done that I am disappointed with. They should consider fixing their broken tournament format first!
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what i would like to know is how MLG is going to handle this situation. as i understand the situation, naniwa earned the code s spot through his placement at a MLG event through the exchange program. if GOM now takes away that spot they are essentially breaching the agreement with MLG. the whole exchange program is kind of a joke anyways as it rarely benefits foreigners, but gives huge benefits to koreans in that most foreigners wouldnt take the GSL spot even if offered. and now, they are even taking away the spot from naniwa who actually wanted to take advantage of the exchange program.
although naniwa's conduct was displeasing to me (and many others), i think that it wasn't sufficient for GOM to take away something earned through the exchange program. and I think MLG should respond in kind.
note, i havent done extensive research on this, so i may be offbase.
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On December 15 2011 04:36 PanN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:33 dib wrote:
as long as he isnt in code s its all good. he doesnt deserve it. Ah, so skill doesn't matter to you, just their moral compass and reputation.
So going 0-10 in GSL code A shows you that naniwa has the skill that deserves code s?
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On December 15 2011 04:38 Vardant wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:36 MayorITC wrote:On December 15 2011 04:34 FairForever wrote:On December 15 2011 04:32 MayorITC wrote:
Naniwa NEVER had a Code S spot.
Please stop using the terms revoke, qualified, or anything else that insinuates he has/had a Code S spot. He was considered as a candidate for one of the two Code S foreigner invites. Actually MLG is looking into it. GOM doesn't owe Naniwa anything. But it does owe MLG its Code S spot. If anyone has a right to be angry, it's MLG, because GOM just broke their contractual agreement to take MLG's Top Non-Code S player into Code S (provided he or she is Top 3). Yes, I'm the one that brought it fucking attention that MLG is looking into it in this thread. And as of yet, they haven't stated that GomTV violated the contract. So no, GomTV doesn't owe MLG anything (as of yet). On December 15 2011 04:33 Vardant wrote:On December 15 2011 04:32 MayorITC wrote:
Naniwa NEVER had a Code S spot.
Please stop using the terms revoke, qualified, or anything else that insinuates he has/had a Code S spot. He was considered as a candidate for one of the two Code S foreigner invites. We have two different sources, that say otherwise. One is Mr. Chae himself. You're wrong. Please enlighten me as to who the other source is that states that I'm wrong. Because MLG hasn't gone against Mr. Chae's statement. Just read the first post in this thread? It clearly says, that Naniwa had the spot, but it was taken away.
It doesn't explicitly state that the spot was contractual. He just said that Naniwa was given a spot, whether by GOM's choice or Naniwa's earning it in Providence and the exchange program is not clear from his sentence.
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On December 15 2011 04:36 diophan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:34 gwixter wrote:On December 15 2011 04:26 Peleus wrote:
God I can't believe how retarded some TL users are being about this.
a) Naniwa clearly deliberately threw the game. Right or wrong aside can we all at least agree on that? Sending 7 probes to your base is not going to win, I know it, you know it, a silver leaguer knows it. how do you know that naniwa knew that as well at that time?? maybe he honestly thought that he can somewhat surprise nestea and win ... who knows is there a rule for that? or you just think it's not right to do that? are we gonna restrict the way how players play their games? what's next? no attacks before 4min mark? it's really thin ice we are now on .... Give Naniwa some credit, he is not in the lower part of bronze league. He knows you cannot win with by a moving all your probes into your opponents base with your mouse without using any micro if your opponent is a progamer. You can dispute plenty of things, but you cannot dispute that Nani knew he couldn't win by doing that.
yes, you are most likely right, but I believe in presumption of innocence
this is no black&white situation here
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i don't think anybody's mentioned this, but the rule that was used to disqualify naniwa (of course, this is subject to translation issues) was "shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviors." do we have any reason to think that this would refer to in-game actions rather than, say, chat or ceremonies? has this rule ever been applied before and would naniwa have had any reason to think that it would have applied to this action? these are all things you need to take into consideration when you ask whether this is fair to naniwa and to mlg.
in my eyes this is clearly an arbitrary and capricious use of the rule and it's frankly unconscionable to treat players like this. fuck naniwa for throwing a game, sure, but i have serious doubts about it being against that rule, at least as stated in english.
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EPT
