EPTTaken from GOM forums
His Code S seed from MLG was declined as a backlash to recent events.
He is still qualified to play in GSL Jan code A prelims.
He is still qualified to play in GSL Jan code A prelims.
Correct Mr. Chae Statement - Page 14
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Vardant
Czech Republic620 Posts
Taken from GOM forums | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On December 15 2011 04:24 o[twist] wrote: sure - but the example he cited was "cheating and fixing games for profit" - my point was that that would be a very different situation Even that, sadly, isn't illegal in some (maybe most, maybe not, no clue) places of the world, and that is quite a shame, if you ask me. | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On December 15 2011 04:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Yeah, just like FireBatHero in Brood War, John McEnroe in tennis, Phil Hellmuth in poker, and Dennis Rodman in basketball, right?  I'm perfectly happy having IdrA, Naniwa, and other bad boys in StarCraft 2. It makes the game more interesting and entertaining than if everyone bows and smiles all the time (though that's not to say I don't also appreciate all the White-Ras and Sheths out there too). The guys you named had their fair shares of supensions/fines/punishments for their stupid stuff they pulled . ( Rodman and McEnroe def that those the other idk ). So Naniwa did get one as well . | ||
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Caltu
60 Posts
On December 15 2011 04:24 Dagobert wrote: I wonder what will happen when IdrA GGs out early again in the GSL. Nothing. This is based around them dropping Johan Lucchesi not Nainiwa. Idra GGs becuase he makes bad decisions not becuase he is feed up that he hasnt made any money. [GOMs statement] | ||
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baoluvboa
743 Posts
On December 15 2011 04:25 Vardant wrote: Ok, I'm officially lost. Taken from GOM forums Just means his code spot was given to Sen instead of him. He can still play GSL. | ||
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Peleus
Australia420 Posts
a) Naniwa clearly deliberately threw the game. Right or wrong aside can we all at least agree on that? Sending 7 probes to your base is not going to win, I know it, you know it, a silver leaguer knows it. Compounded with looking bored, hand on chin, there shouldn't even be questions about whether he threw the game or not. Therefore discussions along the lines of 'bad stratergies can get you banned from GSL' are fairly stupid. Yes there is a level of subjectivity, yes we should always be able to agree Naniwa wasn't using a bad stratergy, he was throwing the game. b) Discussions relating to the contractual giving of Naniwa a spot etc are also pretty clear. Yes he was awarded a spot, yes he was going to be going. He was specifically removed due to the rule relating to offending the audience / BM. Therefore due to violating the rules he has been removed. There is no 'they never gave him the spot he contractually must have', but rather it was given and lost due to rule violation. c) The quote from Mr Chae is explaining the motivation behind the decision, but it seems some people are having trouble understanding it. GOM defines a pro gamer as someone who wants to win no matter what is on the line in a competition like this on the world stage. They are also there to entertain the crowd. There is more to a progamer than simply their skill level. As a result the progamer Naniwa was invited, but because of his BM and clear lack of adherence to the values that define a gamer the person behind the keyboard isn't welcome and has been removed under the previously mentioned rules. As far as they are concerned 'Naniwa' the pro gamer doesn't exist. TL;DR - Don't be a dick and realise at this level there is more to progaming than simply skill level, but entertaining and maintaining a minimum ethical standard. If you can't do that than you're not going to be welcome in some competitions. Behind GOM 100%. | ||
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Caltu
60 Posts
On December 15 2011 04:25 Vardant wrote: Ok, I'm officially lost. Taken from GOM forums They have taken the privilege of the Code S invite. thats all | ||
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Chained
United States137 Posts
On December 15 2011 04:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Yeah, just like FireBatHero in Brood War, John McEnroe in tennis, Phil Hellmuth in poker, and Dennis Rodman in basketball, right? I'm perfectly happy having IdrA, Naniwa, and other bad boys in StarCraft 2. It makes the game more interesting and entertaining than if everyone bows and smiles all the time (though that's not to say I don't also appreciate all the White-Ras and Sheths out there too). I cant speak for some of the names you pulled, but Im pretty sure Dennis Rodman and other "bad boys" of other sports and games get banned for doing something unprofessional, its not like Naniwa got exiled from every gaming tournament, heck, he is only banned from one GSL tournament lol. Its fine to have the Naniwas, Idras, Rodmans, OchoCincos, whatever, but they are going to get banned and heckled and more when they dont act like a professional. I dont really hear anyone saying that Naniwa shouldnt be allowed to play SC2 anymore. | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On December 15 2011 04:26 Caltu wrote: Nothing. This is based around them dropping Johan Lucchesi not Nainiwa. Idra GGs becuase he makes bad decisions not becuase he is feed up that he hasnt made any money. [GOMs statement] Besides, early gg is different. Idra's early ggs come from him - often incorrectly - believing that he's lost the game and so he might as well move onto the next one. He doesn't gg inside the first ten seconds. If he does, you can bet he'll get a GSL ban. | ||
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BlazingGlory
Bulgaria854 Posts
On December 15 2011 04:23 Skyreaper wrote: He wasn't qualified for Code S. He was qualified as one of the candidates to earn Code S seed. And GOMTV didn't kick NaNiwa out from code S, it's more like NaNiwa lost his key to open the door to enter Code S. GSL isn't like any other armature league where players play for fun or for the money. GSL is a tournament where pro-gamers compete each others. Did you know all of this yesterday? | ||
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m0ck
4194 Posts
On December 15 2011 04:16 o[twist] wrote: this is exactly the kind of culture they want to inculcate - play for the victory, not for the money, cause it's not like they're going to pay these korean kids enough to make it truly worth their while to drop out of school and pursue this single-mindedly the way they do. this is just another example of esports taking advantage of the players and acting in loco parentis rather than respectfully as an employer or as an equal That's a pretty interesting point. The 'honor-code' can be seen as a way of controlling what players expect to receive from their many hours of training and dedication. We know that a lot of korean players receive only food and a place to live as their compensation for being on a SC2 team and for playing the game full time. They may not even qualify as professional in the sense that we usually use the term. "Following an occupation as a means of livelihood". The honorable thing is to shut up and train hard and be professional. Always do your best. Don't question your superiors. Don't rock the boat. And so forth. But that's probably for another thread. | ||
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epicdemic
Netherlands137 Posts
On December 15 2011 04:09 ShepherdC wrote: I'm sorry, but am I missing something? It seems like this statement is still calling Naniwa an amateur. Anyone with even a modicum of skill at understanding diplomatic language recognizes that this is a punishment, and Mr. Chae is calling Naniwa an unprofessional money hunter in his inference that because Naniwa didn't have an opportunity to make money he didn't play to win a match. What's more, Mr. Chae is claiming that pro-gamers entire vocation should be for the victory (merits will be ignored). I have to ask what victory when you're unprofessional tournament yields nothing games? The idea that every match should be played to win is ridiculous. You often play a fast match where you have poor odds (due to opponent, map, etc) to save energy for later matches. Hell, players ALLL the time GG out of a game that is by no means over because they are too far down in position. (And I don't mean dramatically like Idra, everyone does it) The only dishonor here is GOM for putting together a tournament that would put players in such unfortunate positions. Yeah, they are saying he doesn't have the mentality of a professional gamer. And that's true, he doesn't. They are claiming he has the skill to be a professional gamer, but it takes more than that. To understand the decision of GOM you have to have some basic understanding of Korean morals and ethics. I don't believe the part where you say someone plays a fast match due to poor odds applies to Korean gamers. They will always try to make the most / best out of the situation, even if they are at a disadvantage. This is why Koreans almost never gg early. Maybe you can compare it to the saying "l'art pour l'art". I don't know if you are familiar with it, but it means art has no other goal than art itself. If you translate this to Naniwa, competing has no other goal than to eliminate the competition. One of the major critiques about "l'art pour l'art" is that artist have a duty to make their art understandable and available for everyone. You don't make art for yourself but for the people that watch your art. Koreans feel the same about Starcraft. You not only compete for yourself, but you also have an obligation to compete to your fans. | ||
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CP-Jun
Australia278 Posts
On December 15 2011 04:17 moonmeh wrote: For fucks sake Crying Poo, remember the Milkis crap? That a translator has responsibilities? Well this is one of them. If you are going to do it, either do it right or don't do it at all. Also anyone have a link to the stream that this was discussed on? Instead on relying on the translation I would like actually watch it and decide what they sad for myself. I am very sorry.. I promise that this will not happen again.. I have wrote a blog to entry to apologize to all TL members.. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=294982 Please take a read even if you are very angry.. I feel extremely bad right now and I mean it sincerely. | ||
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msl
Germany477 Posts
On December 15 2011 04:24 Caltu wrote: The competition in question has yet to start. Its not like its the Ro4 and they are deciding to drop them. Maybe then its alot more questionable I was refering to GSL as a whole, not a specific season. Basicly it boils down to this: Either an organisation like GOM has something akin to rule of law, where known rules and pronciples are applied, or it makes stuff up as it goes along, in which case it isn't really a legitimate competion. | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On December 15 2011 04:24 baoluvboa wrote: A tournament has the right to deny anyone they deem unworthy. GOM has that rule written so they have the right to remove it. They also have complete justification in doing it, not like Naniwa was acting like an angel. They probably have a legal right. They independently may or may not have a moral right. But there's always a nagging feeling that they are being somewhat arbitrary and that their invitations might be revoked unexpectedly. Actually, I might even go back on what I said before. Maybe their invitation IS a privilege. Whether that's a good thing for GOM or not is another question. | ||
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MannerzMan
United States63 Posts
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Kich
United States339 Posts
On December 15 2011 04:16 HolydaKing wrote: I hope you do know the difference between the two. Naniwa has had problems with almost any team and ends up leaving really fast. IdrA even survived being in a korean team for a long long time. Man i hate those comparisons between IdrA and Naniwa.. They're quite unwarranted, Idra hasn't left EG since he's been on it and while he may be blunt and rude, as a general statement he seems well liked amongst everyone that knows him. | ||
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nam nam
Sweden4672 Posts
On December 15 2011 04:26 baoluvboa wrote: Just means his code spot was given to Sen instead of him. He can still play GSL. It was the bolded part he was confused about since a lot of people including the op have argued he didn't get an invite from MLG. | ||
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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jyisvip
Canada209 Posts
On December 15 2011 04:26 Peleus wrote: God I can't believe how retarded some TL users are being about this. a) Naniwa clearly deliberately threw the game. Right or wrong aside can we all at least agree on that? Sending 7 probes to your base is not going to win, I know it, you know it, a silver leaguer knows it. Compounded with looking bored, hand on chin, there shouldn't even be questions about whether he threw the game or not. Therefore discussions along the lines of 'bad stratergies can get you banned from GSL' are fairly stupid. Yes there is a level of subjectivity, yes we should always be able to agree Naniwa wasn't using a bad stratergy, he was throwing the game. b) Discussions relating to the contractual giving of Naniwa a spot etc are also pretty clear. Yes he was awarded a spot, yes he was going to be going. He was specifically removed due to the rule relating to offending the audience / BM. Therefore due to violating the rules he has been removed. There is no 'they never gave him the spot he contractually must have', but rather it was given and lost due to rule violation. c) The quote from Mr Chae is explaining the motivation behind the decision, but it seems some people are having trouble understanding it. GOM defines a pro gamer as someone who wants to win no matter what is on the line in a competition like this on the world stage. They are also there to entertain the crowd. There is more to a progamer than simply their skill level. As a result the progamer Naniwa was invited, but because of his BM and clear lack of adherence to the values that define a gamer the person behind the keyboard isn't welcome and has been removed under the previously mentioned rules. As far as they are concerned 'Naniwa' the pro gamer doesn't exist. TL;DR - Don't be a dick and realise at this level there is more to progaming than simply skill level, but entertaining and maintaining a minimum ethical standard. If you can't do that than you're not going to be welcome in some competitions. Behind GOM 100%. I completely agree with you. It boggles my mind how some people were trying to justify that sending the probes had 0.000001% chance of winning, and asking people to draw the line between 6 pooling and this. Unbelievable. | ||
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