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On December 15 2011 05:39 PHILtheTANK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:34 Govou wrote:On December 15 2011 05:28 PHILtheTANK wrote:On December 15 2011 05:23 whereyouat wrote:On December 15 2011 05:20 diophan wrote:On December 15 2011 05:16 PHILtheTANK wrote:On December 15 2011 05:11 Canucklehead wrote:On December 15 2011 05:07 PHILtheTANK wrote:On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote:
Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed. You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here. Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion. Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage. Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite. You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me. So forcing a depressed and visibly upset person to play COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS games on stage because it was written down in your schedule is making "the word progamer matter?" Because im pretty sure that just belittles it. "Depressed and visibly upset" is certainly open to interpretation. It looked to me like he was just completely disinterested. Anyway yes, playing a game that you're scheduled to play, and presumably trying as well, is what being a professional means. You don't throw a juvenile tantrum because you can't win anymore. Yup those backing naniwa are just as juvenile as he is in that moment. I seriously cannot believe people are supporting the notion of giving up because boohoo my emotions are running me down. This must be the real way of a professional anything. Just give up when you think you have nothing to gain from it but in reality you have much to gain. Have you ever thought that maybe we aren't defending Naniwa... I don't even particually like Naniwa. Im just against the way Gom has handled this. First making them play the game to begin with was retarded. Then revoking his GUARANTEED CODE S SEED, and claiming that it was just an invite( a decision they came to after the Naniwa incedent) is downright criminal. Gom did not suddenly change the rule and force them play like slaves. It was a scheduled Televised game with TV sponsors and most of all it was end of the year tournamt best vs best. Naniwa knew the format and agreed to play. Why? Maybe he thought he wouldnt go 0-3? so when he found out he got destroyed and go 0-3, he threw hissy fit. If you agreed to play retarded game, who's the retard? Also if you go check on MLG providence thread, it was clearly stated, there was no league exchange program for MLG providence. However, Gom considered Naniwa a worthy invite. You think Naniwa didn't complain about having to play the game beforehand? And how many times must this fucking be stated. IT WAS NOT AN INVITE. IT WAS A GUARANTEED SEED FROM THE MLG-GSL EXCHANGE PROGRAM. IT ONLY BECAME AN "INVITE" AFTER NANIWA PROBE RUSHED. They are calling it an invite now because its a major slap in the face to MLG to fucking just revoke the GUARANTEED SEED from their tournament.
If you don't like the schedule or don't want to attend for any other reason, don't go and give someone who wants to the chance to.
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So what is the fucking verdict? I have been reading like 5 threads which say different things. Will naniwa be in Code S next season?
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RIGHT. To 99% of people this is a game. but whether it is a game or not if its your job and your being payed for it you have to do it. thats life!!!! If you're boss tells you to go somewhere and represent the company you're working for you go there whether you want to or not and you do everything you can do give a good impression on youre company. if a sportsman walks onto the field and just stands there twiddling his thumbs then he gets neck deep in shit. i think people are forgetting that pro gaming is a profession with big name sponsers and there is alot of money being paid out. if you cant be bothered to atleast try youre best you should not be aloud to continue as a pro gamer IMO.
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On December 15 2011 05:37 TiTanIum_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:32 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 15 2011 05:30 TiTanIum_ wrote:
I have a question, which might seem stupid, so I´m sorry about it.
Had Nani did the same thing, only in the middle of a GSL season, would he be DQ´ed from it, or just get a slap in the wrist? It wouldn't happen in the middle of the season because GSL matches actually mattered. If it some how did happen, he probably would get DQ'ed and I'd agree with it. In this case, it was a BS show match that meant nothing. What I mean is: "throwing" a game in the Blizzard Cup with a concurrent GSL season in which he is playing.
Probably not, it's much more severe to pull them out of a tournament they're more much likely to win, and if they did I'd definitely disagree more vehemently with GOM than I do now.
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Switzerland2892 Posts
On December 15 2011 05:41 Derrida wrote:
So what is the fucking verdict? I have been reading like 5 threads which say different things. Will naniwa be in Code S next season?
For the moment no he will not get a code s seed, don't think gom will change their mind, it's too late
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Russian Federation51 Posts
Imho, he had it coming. Seems like arrogance finally took its toll on one of the strongest toss outside Korea. Naniwa's awful bravado was childish, unprofessional and disrespectful to everyone: viewers, Blizz cup organizers, Nestea as well as to his team. He could have put up a fight, and, probably, take a game off Nestea. He could have at least done smth totally crazy (remember Stephano v Brat_Ok?). Instead he behaved like a 10-year-old.
Undoubtedly, everyone has a right for a moment of weakness. It's just that a true professional doesn't exercise this right at work.
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On December 15 2011 05:41 diophan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:39 PHILtheTANK wrote:On December 15 2011 05:34 Govou wrote:On December 15 2011 05:28 PHILtheTANK wrote:On December 15 2011 05:23 whereyouat wrote:On December 15 2011 05:20 diophan wrote:On December 15 2011 05:16 PHILtheTANK wrote:On December 15 2011 05:11 Canucklehead wrote:On December 15 2011 05:07 PHILtheTANK wrote:On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote:
Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed. You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here. Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion. Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage. Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite. You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me. So forcing a depressed and visibly upset person to play COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS games on stage because it was written down in your schedule is making "the word progamer matter?" Because im pretty sure that just belittles it. "Depressed and visibly upset" is certainly open to interpretation. It looked to me like he was just completely disinterested. Anyway yes, playing a game that you're scheduled to play, and presumably trying as well, is what being a professional means. You don't throw a juvenile tantrum because you can't win anymore. Yup those backing naniwa are just as juvenile as he is in that moment. I seriously cannot believe people are supporting the notion of giving up because boohoo my emotions are running me down. This must be the real way of a professional anything. Just give up when you think you have nothing to gain from it but in reality you have much to gain. Have you ever thought that maybe we aren't defending Naniwa... I don't even particually like Naniwa. Im just against the way Gom has handled this. First making them play the game to begin with was retarded. Then revoking his GUARANTEED CODE S SEED, and claiming that it was just an invite( a decision they came to after the Naniwa incedent) is downright criminal. Gom did not suddenly change the rule and force them play like slaves. It was a scheduled Televised game with TV sponsors and most of all it was end of the year tournamt best vs best. Naniwa knew the format and agreed to play. Why? Maybe he thought he wouldnt go 0-3? so when he found out he got destroyed and go 0-3, he threw hissy fit. If you agreed to play retarded game, who's the retard? Also if you go check on MLG providence thread, it was clearly stated, there was no league exchange program for MLG providence. However, Gom considered Naniwa a worthy invite. You think Naniwa didn't complain about having to play the game beforehand? And how many times must this fucking be stated. IT WAS NOT AN INVITE. IT WAS A GUARANTEED SEED FROM THE MLG-GSL EXCHANGE PROGRAM. IT ONLY BECAME AN "INVITE" AFTER NANIWA PROBE RUSHED. They are calling it an invite now because its a major slap in the face to MLG to fucking just revoke the GUARANTEED SEED from their tournament. If you don't like the schedule or don't want to attend for any other reason, don't go and give someone who wants to the chance to.
wtf are u even talking about. That literally has absolutely nothing to do with my post.
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On December 15 2011 05:32 -y0shi- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:17 FunkyFly wrote:Doa made a lot of sense. Great read. I agree with this but one thing bothers me. How could anyone not understand that, no matter how it looks to others, he obviously didnt do this to disrespect anyone and didnt get the impact of this. Maybe koreans wouldve liked to see that game but I certainly feel exactly like naniwa. The poor guy gets misunderstood all day and has some issues communicating, just sit down with him and explain what they think was wrong with his actions and everything is fine. Show that youre grown up and professional.. I know that I wouldve done the exact same thing as nani did and not because I wanted to piss anyone off but because for me, from a european point of view, it looks like the only logical thing to do. I just dont get why people cant understand that he didnt get the impact of his action and act like he did this out of spite or because he enjoys pissing people off.
He didn't do it to insult the fans or NesTea, but I am almost convinced he did it to insult GOMtv. He was upset about the format, and whether or not the format was right is irrelevant, because GOMtv runs the tournament, and they can do as they please with it.
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On December 15 2011 05:41 Derrida wrote:
So what is the fucking verdict? I have been reading like 5 threads which say different things. Will naniwa be in Code S next season?
NaNiwa still can compete with Code A and earn Code S hard way.
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On December 15 2011 05:42 pPingu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:41 Derrida wrote:
So what is the fucking verdict? I have been reading like 5 threads which say different things. Will naniwa be in Code S next season? For the moment no he will not get a code s seed, don't think gom will change their mind, it's too late
thank you!
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On December 15 2011 05:32 -y0shi- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:17 FunkyFly wrote:Doa made a lot of sense. Great read. I agree with this but one thing bothers me. How could anyone not understand that, no matter how it looks to others, he obviously didnt do this to disrespect anyone and didnt get the impact of this. Maybe koreans wouldve liked to see that game but I certainly feel exactly like naniwa. The poor guy gets misunderstood all day and has some issues communicating, just sit down with him and explain what they think was wrong with his actions and everything is fine. Show that youre grown up and professional.. I know that I wouldve done the exact same thing as nani did and not because I wanted to piss anyone off but because for me, from a european point of view, it looks like the only logical thing to do. I just dont get why people cant understand that he didnt get the impact of his action and act like he did this out of spite or because he enjoys pissing people off.
I do agree with that
I do get that he acted childly about this match, and should have played it.
But peoples also have to understand that he was eliminated... 30 minutes ago. And that he wanted to leave the studio, not play a show match against Nestea. It was an emotional mistake, not a way to say "F U" to anyone.
Giving him a warning, ok. But denying him from is spot that he won by showing great result lately, is just overkill. They would not have done that if it was IdrA or HuK doing it, would they?
And inviting IdrA instead of Naniwa... I love IdrA, but he is not really the best example of Korean Honor and Pro-gaming standard... he is probably even worst than Naniwa in this regard. So why inviting him instead of Naniwa, because of a lack of "professionalism", if we all knew, GOMTV too i'm sure, that IdrA would probably not even have played that game?
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You should try to see this situation from the GomTV perspective too. They get a lot of flak from the korean community because of the invite system. There's plenty of players in code A/B that are way better than the foreigners pros, yet they stagnate on the team houses because a bunch of horrendous foreigners get invited. Stephano and Fenix are the two "new" foreigners with the best record on GSL tournaments, with a lousy 50%. Idra has a surprinsingly good 60% winrate, but he need to see his new games. HuK, Thorzain, QxC and Jinro are on the 44 - 46% thanks to the GSTL games against several code B players or some really old games. Naniwa has a 8% winrate!
So, you have this guy, that gets invited over and over to the GSL tournaments, and he gets trashed every single time. And this guy, at the supposedly biggest tournament of the year, decided to give the middle finger to all and throws the game in less than two minutes. This kind of behavior should enrage all the korean pros and pro-ams, and gives them a good reason to think that foreigners should just win their seeds playing the hard way just like them. Naniwa should just think about the consequences of his actions.
PS: I don't like Idra for the same reasons i dont like Naniwa, but stats give a compelling argument to explain why was he seeded. Naniwa is 1-12, Sase is 1-6, Idra is 16-10 at televised matches
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On December 15 2011 05:51 legaton wrote:
You should try to see this situation from the GomTV perspective too. They get a lot of flak from the korean community because of the invite system. There's plenty of players in code A/B that are way better than the foreigners pros, yet they stagnate on the team houses because a bunch of horrendous foreigners get invited. Stephano and Fenix are the two "new" foreigners with the best record on GSL tournaments, with a lousy 50%. Idra has a surprinsingly good 60% winrate, but he need to see his new games. HuK, Thorzain, QxC and Jinro are on the 44 - 46% thanks to the GSTL games against several code B players or some really old games. Naniwa has a 8% winrate!
So, you have this guy, that gets invited over and over to the GSL tournaments, and he gets trashed every single time. And this guy, at the supposedly biggest tournament of the year, decided to give the middle finger to all and throws the game in less than two minutes. This kind of behavior should enrage all the korean pros and pro-ams, and gives them a good reason to think that foreigners should just win their seeds playing the hard way just like them. Naniwa should just think about the consequences of his actions.
The question isn't whether GOM has a right to be upset. Of course they do. But that doesn't automatically justify any decision they take.
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There is some real irony when GOM talks about professionalism, while making up some sort of official sounding statement about some arbitrary, objective standards, they just conjured up. No matter how official you try to sound, when you just do this post-event, you are indeed being unprofessional yourselves.
As a tournament manager, or series of tournaments as GOM is, you just have to let the games be games. As long as there is no proof someone is being payed to throw games, you have to let them be. Someone who constantly throws games and gives things up will eventually knock themselves out of competitive play. To even begin to creep into "people should play like this" and all kinds of objective crap about standards and entertainment- is tainting the game more than someone just giving up. This is also part of the game.
Aside from regulation, about what Naniwa did- which by standards of playing the game, is fine... I don't agree with. As a pro gamer who gets payed to do this, and sent to far off countries to compete, at least he could have treated the game like a serious practice session. Under the big lights in a live event, to test his ability and stamina against one of the best Zergs in the world, would have at LEAST been worth it alone. So, I don't exactly agree with Naniwa either.
Part of me thinks though, he did it for the controversy, and knows that, in the long run, stuff like this is good for Esports. This is our version of celebrity gossip divorces and tabloid BS- as little as any of us would like to admit it.
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On December 15 2011 05:48 kappadevin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:32 -y0shi- wrote:On December 15 2011 05:17 FunkyFly wrote:Doa made a lot of sense. Great read. I agree with this but one thing bothers me. How could anyone not understand that, no matter how it looks to others, he obviously didnt do this to disrespect anyone and didnt get the impact of this. Maybe koreans wouldve liked to see that game but I certainly feel exactly like naniwa. The poor guy gets misunderstood all day and has some issues communicating, just sit down with him and explain what they think was wrong with his actions and everything is fine. Show that youre grown up and professional.. I know that I wouldve done the exact same thing as nani did and not because I wanted to piss anyone off but because for me, from a european point of view, it looks like the only logical thing to do. I just dont get why people cant understand that he didnt get the impact of his action and act like he did this out of spite or because he enjoys pissing people off. He didn't do it to insult the fans or NesTea, but I am almost convinced he did it to insult GOMtv. He was upset about the format, and whether or not the format was right is irrelevant, because GOMtv runs the tournament, and they can do as they please with it.
I see no insult there at all. He didn't want to play the game, was forced to, and so did the fastest thing to get him out of it. As Liquid'Tyler has said, plenty of other players have done this, just Naniwa did it quicker and more directly than anyone else. How many other players have 6pooled games, have done retarded cheeses that have little to no chance of succeeding, and not been punished? All Naniwa did was make his disinterest painfully obvious, and for that he gets his INVITE seed revoked.
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프로게이머라는 직업이 사실은 이겨서 상금을 타가서 그걸로 업을 삼는다고 프로게이머라고 생각하지 않아요 프로게이머라는 직업은 승부를 가리는 것들을 시청자분들에게 보여주고 그것들을 시청자 분들이 열광하고 그것을 통해서 승부를 가리는 것을 직업으로 삼는 선수들을 프로게이머라고 저희가 생각을하고 있기 때문에 저희가 시드를 줬던것은 퀀틱 게이밍의 프로토스 프로게이머 나니와 선수였지 스웨덴에서 게임을 잘하는 청년 요한 루세시는 아니였습니다.
i guess some people are confused about what last statement meant.
some of the points have been lost in translation.
basically Mr Chae is trying to make a point that as a progamer, your first priority should not be winning the prize money. As a progamer, main priority should be playing games infront of crowd (regardless of significance of the match or prize money).
-This is the mind set Korean Esports scene has. Not some job that gives quarter million salary. (ref. IMMVP).
When Mr Chae said, "저희가 시드를 줬던것은 퀀틱 게이밍의 프로토스 프로게이머 나니와 선수였지 스웨덴에서 게임을 잘하는 청년 요한 루세시는 아니였습니다."
translated as "Gave the seed to quantic gaming protoss 'progamer' Naniwa, not to 'good player' Johan Lucchesi.
As a Korean, i interpret this statement as; "Naniwa is a good player, but his behavior was unprofessional."
As a personal statement, I believe people are taking this way out of proportion as if they haven't gotten any action in 2011; just needing a place to vent. The punishment is not severe. Naniwa just needs to go through qualifier to get into code S instead of direct seeding from foreign tournaments.
I just think of this situation as a good example for gamers to conduct more professional behavior in the future.
several episodes back in SotG, Artosis stated that some gamers treat Casters like piece of shit. I hope this situation with Naniwa will be a wake up call to some gamers.
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What it all comes down to is Confucius culture. Korea is one of the hardcore Confucius countries.
![[image loading]](http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/images/ezine/Confucianism200BC.jpg)
This is 200 b.c. and since then it has spread even wider.
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On December 15 2011 05:33 nokz88 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:48 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 04:46 Hubris wrote:
I've yet to hear a clear and coherent argument stating why Gom is wrong removing a player that disrespected them from their tourny. I think some here need to tone down the fanboy rage/national pride and just accept that he broke cultural norms for a serious sport and got reprimanded for it. It's really that simple. If he's code S worthy he'll do well in up/downs and it wont matter anyway. name another sport where you can be thrown out for "breaking cultural norms" with no specific rule I cannot, I can however, name several others where unprofessional behavior is punished. ;p People need to stop being biased to either side and start discussing things that really matter. 1. Is what Naniwa did against the rules? A: Debatable, but yes. There is a rule that gives gom the right to deny right to participation to those the gomtv staff deems "unfit for a gamer", and there's other that basically says you shall not offend the opponent or the viewers. 2. Let's say it isn't, then what Naniwa did SHOULD be against the rules? A: Abso-fuckin-lutely. That kind of behavior is a disgrace to the game, to the organization, to the opponent and to the viewers. All the rest(whether the format is shit, cultural clash blablabla) is secondary to this. Was Naniwa wrong? YES! ...why are we still discussing this?
It is being discussed because the things that you state with certainty are your subjective opinions, not any objective facts.
1) He did nothing against the rules. What you cited just shows that GOM also did nothing against the rules by punishing him, not that Naniwa actually did something against the rules, because he did not.
2) Ok, and how are you going to phrase the rule that will ensure that ? Would love to see that.
I find his behavior stupid in light of the fact that he should have considered the consequences, but I found the incident funny and if someone is offended by it they should look at real life offending issues, there is plenty of real issues, not this being offended by a guy playing a game in entertaining industry for crying out loud. Are people that easily offended by nothing, really ?
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On December 15 2011 04:54 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:40 o[twist] wrote:
i don't think anybody's mentioned this, but the rule that was used to disqualify naniwa (of course, this is subject to translation issues) was "shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviors." do we have any reason to think that this would refer to in-game actions rather than, say, chat or ceremonies? has this rule ever been applied before and would naniwa have had any reason to think that it would have applied to this action? these are all things you need to take into consideration when you ask whether this is fair to naniwa and to mlg.
in my eyes this is clearly an arbitrary and capricious use of the rule and it's frankly unconscionable to treat players like this. fuck naniwa for throwing a game, sure, but i have serious doubts about it being against that rule, at least as stated in english. I don't even like Naniwa, but I agree 100%. I watched the entire series and I have to say, I was more amused by the probe rush than anything. (read: The match had zero meaning, and even Tastosis thought they would just skip the match, because both of them were already eliminated, and it would not affect Blizzard Cup in the slightest manner.) Offended so much that you have to harshly penalize a player? Give a warning and that'd be enough. Seriously, GOM just lowered itself to Nani's level. LoL, it feels like some childish eye for an eye bs - you hurt my feelings; therefore, I will bend the rules to hurt you too. butthurt much?
You obviously didn't watch the match. Tastosis wasn't even casting that night, buddy.
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EPT
