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On December 15 2011 05:17 FunkyFly wrote:Doa made a lot of sense. Great read.
I agree with this but one thing bothers me. How could anyone not understand that, no matter how it looks to others, he obviously didnt do this to disrespect anyone and didnt get the impact of this.
Maybe koreans wouldve liked to see that game but I certainly feel exactly like naniwa. The poor guy gets misunderstood all day and has some issues communicating, just sit down with him and explain what they think was wrong with his actions and everything is fine. Show that youre grown up and professional..
I know that I wouldve done the exact same thing as nani did and not because I wanted to piss anyone off but because for me, from a european point of view, it looks like the only logical thing to do.
I just dont get why people cant understand that he didnt get the impact of his action and act like he did this out of spite or because he enjoys pissing people off.
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On December 15 2011 05:28 gwixter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:18 Canucklehead wrote:On December 15 2011 05:17 FunkyFly wrote:Doa made a lot of sense. Great read. Yeah doa made a great and informative post. Props to doa! yes, but he is wrong in one point GOM didn't give spot in BlizzCup to Naniwa. they gave it to two best players at providence (whoever that might have been) just to be clear
Actually IIRC originally only the first place from Providence was going to get an invite. Unfortunately they changed http://www.gomtv.net/2011blizzardcup/news/66704 to reflect how they adjusted it. MVP has 3 of the 10 spots so they needed to come up with other people to invite. They could have very well just made all the extra spots the top X in GSL points, so in effect by choosing which tournament results to award the extra 2 spots, they gave Nani an invite.
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On December 15 2011 04:48 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:46 Hubris wrote:
I've yet to hear a clear and coherent argument stating why Gom is wrong removing a player that disrespected them from their tourny. I think some here need to tone down the fanboy rage/national pride and just accept that he broke cultural norms for a serious sport and got reprimanded for it. It's really that simple. If he's code S worthy he'll do well in up/downs and it wont matter anyway. name another sport where you can be thrown out for "breaking cultural norms" with no specific rule
I cannot, I can however, name several others where unprofessional behavior is punished. ;p
People need to stop being biased to either side and start discussing things that really matter.
1. Is what Naniwa did against the rules?
A: Debatable, but yes. There is a rule that gives gom the right to deny right to participation to those the gomtv staff deems "unfit for a gamer", and there's other that basically says you shall not offend the opponent or the viewers.
2. Let's say it isn't, then what Naniwa did SHOULD be against the rules?
A: Abso-fuckin-lutely. That kind of behavior is a disgrace to the game, to the organization, to the opponent and to the viewers.
All the rest(whether the format is shit, cultural clash blablabla) is secondary to this. Was Naniwa wrong? YES!
...why are we still discussing this?
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Glad to see MrChae vindicated! People too quickly go out with the pitchforks these days...
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On December 15 2011 05:28 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:26 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 05:09 diophan wrote:On December 15 2011 05:08 -y0shi- wrote:On December 15 2011 05:04 Teriyaki-Boy wrote:On December 15 2011 04:42 m0ck wrote:On December 15 2011 04:35 Teriyaki-Boy wrote:
I don't understand why, people are defending him for acting in such a way and trying to justified the game mean nothing....The game does mean something to the viewers and the fans of Naniwa and Nestea. People need to understand this is a business of entertainment and GOM wanna put out great content for their viewers and E-Sport to grow. I have to agree with the punishment, only caring for your own personal feeling and disregard your jobs is truly unprofessional.
To some viewers. To others, such as myself, it's a meaningless game, a consequence of a bad tournament format, that is being played out as show for the sake of the show. You're asking the players to fake it. That is almost impossible, as can be seen in how Hero didn't play to win in his match against DRG on monday, and almost always results in lackluster games, if not in trouble as we've seen here. It means you have to set a rather arbitrary rule for how much of an effort you're supposed to make. I wan't to see meaningful competition, matches that matter, not something akin to a wrestling match. .Its like saying fuck your viewers, fuck your tournament. To act on one own feelings and not caring about other in a business environment is unacceptable and i stand by Gom for the Punishment. This is what I just dont understand... YOu know what I consider "fuck you" to the viewers? Forcing a half assed game between two guys who arent focused down the vciewers throat just because you need to satisfy some artifical hype.. Nani simply felt like he coudlt deliver and didnt try to pretend because he didnt want to waste anyones time. The tournament was round robin, presumably to let the viewers see all these awesome players play each other. What is GOM supposed to do, "sorry viewers who paid $10 to see a tournament that's less than a week long, Nani doesn't feel like playing anymore"? No, they should say: "After yesterdays events, we would like to apologize to our viewers. In the course of our tournament, in more than one match one of the players participating did not play to win. In the most severe case, the player naniwa probe-rushed to a certain defeat. We do not accept nor condone this behavior. However, we accept that our tournament-format, with matches in which one or both players were already out of the tournament contributed to the situation. As such, we have come to the dicision to penalize the player Naniwa with a fine of 1000$ for not playing to win in the most obvious manner possible. We believe that by this action, and in the future being mindful of the negative consequences of certain tournament formats, we have addressed what many perceived as a disrespectful show by the player naniwa, while at the same time accepting our own culpability. We hope that everyone will accept this solution to an unfortunate situation. Please direct any comments to our forum at blablabla, where well be answering questions and comments." Add to it an apology and explanation from naniwa and things wouldn't have gotten this out of hand. No, things got out of hand because someone posted a completely inaccurate translation of Mr. Chae's statement which fueled anger at GOM.
GOM has brought in on themselves by going back and forth on whether naniwa was banned, had his qualification revoked, had his qualification revoked earlier as part of the overhaul of the system (though they didn't inform anyone, not even naniwa, of the changes), or whether he was never actually qualified. GOM has not got its story straight, that is quite obvious.
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First of all I am in no way backing Naniwa it was a stupid decision and he shouldn't have done it. But after researching this tournament and gomtv's rules for their tournaments I believe this punishment is completely undeserved.
After about 2 hours of research and searching i could not find a single ruleset for the blizzard cup gomtv invitational but I did find the GSL ruleset which I will assume that GOM used since they didnt release a ruleset for this tournament.
Tournament Rules
Game Play Rules
1) All matches will be played with ‘StarCraft II – Wings of Liberty’ (12+ version, rated by GRB).
2) All matches will be played with the latest patch available at the time of the game play.
3) All matches will follow the tournament format. Ro16 : Bo3, Ro8~Semifinals : Bo5, Final : Bo7
4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.
5) Players must disable Toast Notifications in the Battle.net options.
6) All players must set their status to Busy.
7) All games will be observed by 2 GOMTV Observers.
8) Observer will host all games and players must notify the observer that they are ready via the waiting room’s chatting window.
9) There should be no communication between the players other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' and etc to surrender the game.
10) No known bugs or cheats are allowed during game play.
Equipment and Other Rules
All players must arrive at the tournament venue no later than 15 minutes prior to the start of the game.
All players are allowed 15 minutes to adjust their personal settings.
All players are allowed to user their personal equipment.
The list of the personal equipment allowed is as follows:
1) Keyboard
2) Mouse
3) Mouse Pad
4) Mouse Stand
5) Earphone
6) Mouse Driver
Player must use the Wide LCD monitor provided by GOMTV. (Player is able to adjust the resolution or graphic option.)
Player must use the computer provided by GOMTV.
All players must put on the earphone first then put on the headset provided by GOMTV.
Game Pause and Replay Rules
When the player feels that a game should be paused, he or she should press the buzzer in the game booth immediately.
When the buzzer is pressed, the observer and the referee will pause the game.
A player is able to request for a pause under the following conditions:
1) When the equipment is not functioning or malfunctioning (Keyboard, Mouse, Monitor, PC and etc.)
2) When a major game related bug has been observed during the game play
3) When the game sound has been turned off and the player is able to hear the noise outside of the booth
4) When the player experiences other factors that he or she believes that might greatly affect the game play
If the game has been paused due to the reasons above, the host will resolve the issue and promptly resume the game.
In case one of the following events occurs, the game in play will be tossed out and the game will be replayed.
1) When the game is paused due to equipment malfunction, power outage, network error and etc that are required for the progress of the tournament
2) When the computer used by the player malfunctions or shuts down
3) When a game related bug that was previously unknown or clearly unintentional occurs
4) When the game play can no longer be continued due to the disturbance and noise caused by behaviors including trespassing on to the stage, throwing of stuff, violet languages or actions
5) When it becomes impossible to determine win or lose based on the content of the game play
6) When the game needs to be paused due to unavoidable circumstances such as natural disaster
7) In case the PCs of the referee and observer drop resulting in the inability to broadcast, the game should be resumed and the match result will be recognized if the players are still able to continue the game. The host and the referee are able to act flexibly depending on the situation
Automatic Loss Rule
When the friend log-in notification pops up during the game play
When the player receives a whisper (message) during the game play from another user (failure to set the status to busy)
Sending chat messages other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' to declare the loss during the game.
Displaying violent behaviors to threaten the opposing player or the audience.
Arriving at the tournament venue after 15 minutes prior to the start of the game.
Delaying games intentionally even after the allotted time (15 minutes) for personal settings.
Using known bugs and cheats during the game play.
I completely agree with Liquid'tyler, GOM can't just make up rules because they dont like what naniwa did. It sets a bad president for all of esports, by either pointing out that they dont think their tournaments completely through before they hold them, or that they dont abide by the rules they set out and/or bend the rules to punish somebody for something they don't like.
Either way it's all bad news for Esports, patiently waiting on a response from nani, gom, and mlg.
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On December 15 2011 05:28 PHILtheTANK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:23 whereyouat wrote:On December 15 2011 05:20 diophan wrote:On December 15 2011 05:16 PHILtheTANK wrote:On December 15 2011 05:11 Canucklehead wrote:On December 15 2011 05:07 PHILtheTANK wrote:On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote:
Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed. You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here. Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion. Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage. Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite. You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me. So forcing a depressed and visibly upset person to play COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS games on stage because it was written down in your schedule is making "the word progamer matter?" Because im pretty sure that just belittles it. "Depressed and visibly upset" is certainly open to interpretation. It looked to me like he was just completely disinterested. Anyway yes, playing a game that you're scheduled to play, and presumably trying as well, is what being a professional means. You don't throw a juvenile tantrum because you can't win anymore. Yup those backing naniwa are just as juvenile as he is in that moment. I seriously cannot believe people are supporting the notion of giving up because boohoo my emotions are running me down. This must be the real way of a professional anything. Just give up when you think you have nothing to gain from it but in reality you have much to gain. Have you ever thought that maybe we aren't defending Naniwa... I don't even particually like Naniwa. Im just against the way Gom has handled this. First making them play the game to begin with was retarded. Then revoking his GUARANTEED CODE S SEED, and claiming that it was just an invite( a decision they came to after the Naniwa incedent) is downright criminal.
Gom did not suddenly change the rule and force them play like slaves.
It was a scheduled Televised game with TV sponsors and most of all it was end of the year tournamt best vs best.
Naniwa knew the format and agreed to play. Why? Maybe he thought he wouldnt go 0-3? so when he found out he got destroyed and go 0-3, he threw hissy fit.
If you agreed to play retarded game, who's the retard?
Also if you go check on MLG providence thread, it was clearly stated, there was no league exchange program for MLG providence. However, Gom considered Naniwa a worthy invite.
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On December 15 2011 05:33 nokz88 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:48 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 04:46 Hubris wrote:
I've yet to hear a clear and coherent argument stating why Gom is wrong removing a player that disrespected them from their tourny. I think some here need to tone down the fanboy rage/national pride and just accept that he broke cultural norms for a serious sport and got reprimanded for it. It's really that simple. If he's code S worthy he'll do well in up/downs and it wont matter anyway. name another sport where you can be thrown out for "breaking cultural norms" with no specific rule I cannot, I can however, name several others where unprofessional behavior is punished. ;p People need to stop being biased to either side and start discussing things that really matter. 1. Is what Naniwa did against the rules? A: Debatable, but yes. There is a rule that gives gom the right to deny right to participation to those the gomtv staff deems "unfit for a gamer", and there's other that basically says you shall not offend the opponent or the viewers. 2. Let's say it isn't, then what Naniwa did SHOULD be against the rules? A: Abso-fuckin-lutely. That kind of behavior is a disgrace to the game, to the organization, to the opponent and to the viewers. All the rest(whether the format is shit, cultural clash blablabla) is secondary to this. Was Naniwa wrong? YES! ...why are we still discussing this?
"unfit for a gamer" is the kind of rule that ends up being called "void for vagueness." it's not at all fair to have such a vague rule and apply it arbitrarily. the reason is that people can't anticipate what is against the rules so they won't know what they're allowed to do and not allowed to do. someone doing something wrong does not mean that someone else has the power to break a promise made to them.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On December 15 2011 05:31 BBMorti wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:23 whereyouat wrote:On December 15 2011 05:20 diophan wrote:On December 15 2011 05:16 PHILtheTANK wrote:On December 15 2011 05:11 Canucklehead wrote:On December 15 2011 05:07 PHILtheTANK wrote:On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote:
Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed. You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here. Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion. Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage. Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite. You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me. So forcing a depressed and visibly upset person to play COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS games on stage because it was written down in your schedule is making "the word progamer matter?" Because im pretty sure that just belittles it. "Depressed and visibly upset" is certainly open to interpretation. It looked to me like he was just completely disinterested. Anyway yes, playing a game that you're scheduled to play, and presumably trying as well, is what being a professional means. You don't throw a juvenile tantrum because you can't win anymore. Yup those backing naniwa are just as juvenile as he is in that moment. I seriously cannot believe people are supporting the notion of giving up because boohoo my emotions are running me down. This must be the real way of a professional anything. Just give up when you think you have nothing to gain from it but in reality you have much to gain. Classy comment, calling him and people who disagree with you juvenile just fuels the whole "Koreans are sensitive" stuff that is getting spewed in these discussions. In any case, reported.
I pretty much agree, it's kind of sad to see people resorting to this kind of meaningless arguments. This is not a communist forum. People are entitled to their own opinions. Insulting whoever disagrees with you makes neither your argument more solid nor your argument correct. It's just inappropriate and immature.
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On December 15 2011 05:31 o[twist] wrote:
people keep talking about how naniwa *should have* acted or whether what he did was *wrong* - it needs to be clear that this isn't really the issue, no matter whether people agree or disagree about it - what's at issue is whether gom has the power to withdraw his seed (or his "invitation", if you will)
Actually, what is at issue is whether GOM should have revoked his seed, not whether they have the power to. GOM clearly believes that they have the power to, and we can't really question that power unless we see a contract that says they are limited in some way that stops them from revoking this seed. These contracts were not public, and in all likelihood will never be made public.
As such, there isn't anything to discuss regarding whether GOM has this power or not. The more pertinent and debatable issue is whether GOM was correct in using its power against Naniwa in this way, and the community appears divided on this point.
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On December 15 2011 05:19 Megiddosc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:09 Tyrant0 wrote:
By siding with GOM you're basically agreeing that shitty 4 gates/6 gates are fun to watch and GOM should provoke more with even MORE inconsequential matches.
Do you know how many times I've seen shitty 4 gates/6 gates win? A lot. A LOT. It is a valid strategy that can actually win the game. Sure, it makes for a short game with either the timing attack working out or not, but there is still at least a game. Watching 8-9 drones surround and kill 7 probes (the probes not being microed whatsoever) is not a game.
You completely missed the point, and in essence are agreeing that it's okay for a tournament to facilitate a format in which players have an incentive to half-ass it only 30% and not the ultra obvious 1%. Enjoy the show, that's basically what it is and not a real game.
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it was long time coming for naniwa
he was acting like 10 year old child every cup he enter
u need more skills and less talk
GJ Gom.
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On December 15 2011 05:32 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:30 TiTanIum_ wrote:
I have a question, which might seem stupid, so I´m sorry about it.
Had Nani did the same thing, only in the middle of a GSL season, would he be DQ´ed from it, or just get a slap in the wrist? It wouldn't happen in the middle of the season because GSL matches actually mattered. If it some how did happen, he probably would get DQ'ed and I'd agree with it. In this case, it was a BS show match that meant nothing.
What I mean is: "throwing" a game in the Blizzard Cup with a concurrent GSL season in which he is playing.
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On December 15 2011 05:36 Trsjnica wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:31 o[twist] wrote:
people keep talking about how naniwa *should have* acted or whether what he did was *wrong* - it needs to be clear that this isn't really the issue, no matter whether people agree or disagree about it - what's at issue is whether gom has the power to withdraw his seed (or his "invitation", if you will) Actually, what is at issue is whether GOM should have revoked his seed, not whether they have the power to. GOM clearly believes that they have the power to, and we can't really question that power unless we see a contract that says they are limited in some way that stops them from revoking this seed. These contracts were not public, and in all likelihood will never be made public. As such, there isn't anything to discuss regarding whether GOM has this power or not. The more pertinent and debatable issue is whether GOM was correct in using its power against Naniwa in this way, and the community appears divided on this point.
if the contract *doesn't* limit gom in some way, then it doesn't provide mlg with anything at all, now does it? that's not much of a contract - "you agree to do this, and i'll agree to do that, unless i don't feel like it" - that's quite the opposite of a contract
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On December 15 2011 05:32 diophan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:28 gwixter wrote:On December 15 2011 05:18 Canucklehead wrote:On December 15 2011 05:17 FunkyFly wrote:Doa made a lot of sense. Great read. Yeah doa made a great and informative post. Props to doa! yes, but he is wrong in one point GOM didn't give spot in BlizzCup to Naniwa. they gave it to two best players at providence (whoever that might have been) just to be clear Actually IIRC originally only the first place from Providence was going to get an invite. Unfortunately they changed http://www.gomtv.net/2011blizzardcup/news/66704 to reflect how they adjusted it. MVP has 3 of the 10 spots so they needed to come up with other people to invite. They could have very well just made all the extra spots the top X in GSL points, so in effect by choosing which tournament results to award the extra 2 spots, they gave Nani an invite.
it was announced before providence, doesn't matter why they changed their plan
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So glad this thread got put up in the news section, everyone should see this.
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On December 15 2011 05:34 Govou wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:28 PHILtheTANK wrote:On December 15 2011 05:23 whereyouat wrote:On December 15 2011 05:20 diophan wrote:On December 15 2011 05:16 PHILtheTANK wrote:On December 15 2011 05:11 Canucklehead wrote:On December 15 2011 05:07 PHILtheTANK wrote:On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote:
Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed. You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here. Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion. Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage. Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite. You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me. So forcing a depressed and visibly upset person to play COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS games on stage because it was written down in your schedule is making "the word progamer matter?" Because im pretty sure that just belittles it. "Depressed and visibly upset" is certainly open to interpretation. It looked to me like he was just completely disinterested. Anyway yes, playing a game that you're scheduled to play, and presumably trying as well, is what being a professional means. You don't throw a juvenile tantrum because you can't win anymore. Yup those backing naniwa are just as juvenile as he is in that moment. I seriously cannot believe people are supporting the notion of giving up because boohoo my emotions are running me down. This must be the real way of a professional anything. Just give up when you think you have nothing to gain from it but in reality you have much to gain. Have you ever thought that maybe we aren't defending Naniwa... I don't even particually like Naniwa. Im just against the way Gom has handled this. First making them play the game to begin with was retarded. Then revoking his GUARANTEED CODE S SEED, and claiming that it was just an invite( a decision they came to after the Naniwa incedent) is downright criminal. Gom did not suddenly change the rule and force them play like slaves. It was a scheduled Televised game with TV sponsors and most of all it was end of the year tournamt best vs best. Naniwa knew the format and agreed to play. Why? Maybe he thought he wouldnt go 0-3? so when he found out he got destroyed and go 0-3, he threw hissy fit. If you agreed to play retarded game, who's the retard? Also if you go check on MLG providence thread, it was clearly stated, there was no league exchange program for MLG providence. However, Gom considered Naniwa a worthy invite.
You think Naniwa didn't complain about having to play the game beforehand? And how many times must this fucking be stated. IT WAS NOT AN INVITE. IT WAS A GUARANTEED SEED FROM THE MLG-GSL EXCHANGE PROGRAM. IT ONLY BECAME AN "INVITE" AFTER NANIWA PROBE RUSHED. They are calling it an invite now because its a major slap in the face to MLG to fucking just revoke the GUARANTEED SEED from their tournament.
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On December 15 2011 05:39 PHILtheTANK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:34 Govou wrote:On December 15 2011 05:28 PHILtheTANK wrote:On December 15 2011 05:23 whereyouat wrote:On December 15 2011 05:20 diophan wrote:On December 15 2011 05:16 PHILtheTANK wrote:On December 15 2011 05:11 Canucklehead wrote:On December 15 2011 05:07 PHILtheTANK wrote:On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote:
Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed. You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here. Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion. Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage. Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite. You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me. So forcing a depressed and visibly upset person to play COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS games on stage because it was written down in your schedule is making "the word progamer matter?" Because im pretty sure that just belittles it. "Depressed and visibly upset" is certainly open to interpretation. It looked to me like he was just completely disinterested. Anyway yes, playing a game that you're scheduled to play, and presumably trying as well, is what being a professional means. You don't throw a juvenile tantrum because you can't win anymore. Yup those backing naniwa are just as juvenile as he is in that moment. I seriously cannot believe people are supporting the notion of giving up because boohoo my emotions are running me down. This must be the real way of a professional anything. Just give up when you think you have nothing to gain from it but in reality you have much to gain. Have you ever thought that maybe we aren't defending Naniwa... I don't even particually like Naniwa. Im just against the way Gom has handled this. First making them play the game to begin with was retarded. Then revoking his GUARANTEED CODE S SEED, and claiming that it was just an invite( a decision they came to after the Naniwa incedent) is downright criminal. Gom did not suddenly change the rule and force them play like slaves. It was a scheduled Televised game with TV sponsors and most of all it was end of the year tournamt best vs best. Naniwa knew the format and agreed to play. Why? Maybe he thought he wouldnt go 0-3? so when he found out he got destroyed and go 0-3, he threw hissy fit. If you agreed to play retarded game, who's the retard? Also if you go check on MLG providence thread, it was clearly stated, there was no league exchange program for MLG providence. However, Gom considered Naniwa a worthy invite. You think Naniwa didn't complain about having to play the game beforehand? And how many times must this fucking be stated. IT WAS NOT AN INVITE. IT WAS A GUARANTEED SEED FROM THE MLG-GSL EXCHANGE PROGRAM. IT ONLY BECAME AN "INVITE" AFTER NANIWA PROBE RUSHED. They are calling it an invite now because its a major slap in the face to MLG to fucking just revoke the GUARANTEED SEED from their tournament.
Dude settle down. No matter how many caps you type it isnt going to change the facts.
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On December 15 2011 05:38 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:36 Trsjnica wrote:On December 15 2011 05:31 o[twist] wrote:
people keep talking about how naniwa *should have* acted or whether what he did was *wrong* - it needs to be clear that this isn't really the issue, no matter whether people agree or disagree about it - what's at issue is whether gom has the power to withdraw his seed (or his "invitation", if you will) Actually, what is at issue is whether GOM should have revoked his seed, not whether they have the power to. GOM clearly believes that they have the power to, and we can't really question that power unless we see a contract that says they are limited in some way that stops them from revoking this seed. These contracts were not public, and in all likelihood will never be made public. As such, there isn't anything to discuss regarding whether GOM has this power or not. The more pertinent and debatable issue is whether GOM was correct in using its power against Naniwa in this way, and the community appears divided on this point. if the contract *doesn't* limit gom in some way, then it doesn't provide mlg with anything at all, now does it? that's not much of a contract - "you agree to do this, and i'll agree to do that, unless i don't feel like it" - that's quite the opposite of a contract
Please post the contract at issue so we can properly interpret that. Failing this, this is idle speculation.
We do not know whether and what the contract between GOM and MLG may have looked like. It could take a large number of forms, and it could have a large number of clauses. Typical contracts between businesses in a lot of instances can span hundreds of pages with a large number of clauses to cover every eventuality. This possibility may be covered within the contract.
Edit: Also, the contract can limit GOM in a huge number of ways. You are suggesting a very specific limitation--namely, that GOM must allow Naniwa into their next tournament, in Code S, regardless of actions Naniwa takes on GOM stages which GOM may believe to be disrespectful and unprofessional to GOM and the community.
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EPT
