On December 15 2011 05:04 -DMducky wrote: Coming from a Asian background; If someone walked around my house with their shoes on I would have kicked that person out of my house too...
Overall in my opinion he was being disrespectful. Punishment is harsh, but it was necessary.
Still welcome in my house next time, just has to take the shoes off.
Really? Why not just ask to take their shoes off?
Because if you KNOW you are supposed to take your shoes off, you are probably leaving them on just to be a dick.
Yeah, clearly my intention is to piss everyone off.
Or maybe I realized people usually took their shoes off but the floor was kinda cold and I didn't think you'd mind that much. But now that I'm kicked off I learned.
On December 15 2011 04:59 GodZo wrote: Naniwa deserves the Code S Spot.
GOM made a mistake in that situation, because it was an insignificant match, and it was much more funny than any other "4 gate" or trash game...
Naniwa didn't offend or hurt anybody. GOM and other persons have not humor, and don't consider the game for what it is, a funny game, not much more.
He actually offended a lot of people. Have you seen what the Koreans are saying about this.
Agreed. Koreans have very different cultural norms and values. Not necessarily better or worse - just different. From a western perspective, this was bm and probably not a wise move, but ultimately forgivable. To them, this was a slap in the face.
I also believe that this harsh punishment was not based solely on his misbehaviour, but also on the way he had acted on other occasions.
- If I recall correctly, Naniwa did not "gg" when he lost his second game against Lucky in Code A
- If I recall correctly, Naniwa said before Blizzcup at the official press conference that it was "just another tournament" for him.
- In the TL-interview after this incident, he stated that he believed Koreans to overreact and that they should calm down.
NOTE: Please correct me if I said something wrong here, don't wanna spread false stuff.
I believe that these things might have influenced GOM's decision. Imagine he had excused for what he did in a formal and regretful manner. May be then things could have gone differently. But I can imagine Naniwa being generally perceived as disrespectful, so that GOM and the officials put on different scales when judging this incident.
You make a pretty good point. Didn't take into account of other stuff he did outside of the game itself before.
On December 15 2011 04:48 Namkung wrote: 저희가 시드를 줬던것은 퀀틱 게이밍의 프로토스 프로게이머 나니와 선수였지 스웨덴에서 게임을 잘하는 청년 요한 루세시는 아니였습니다.
the translation should be as follows for this line : We gave the seed to the Quantic Gaming's Protoss Player and NOT to the immature Swedish Player Johan Lucchesi who is good at the game.
You completely ignored the word 청년 in your translation which is the most important part in that statement. or what makes it very clear. From this, Mr.Chae is saying that Naniwa is very immature for what he did. and ultimately the person he gave the Code S seed to was simply a PRO PLAYER FROM QUANTIC GAMING and not the immature person that it turned out to be.
edit : the word 청년 in Korean means a teenager. and in this kind of context, the word can be used to describe the characteristics / attributes associated with a teenager . being immature
thanks namkung. quoted for visibility, plz OP, update. If you agree on the translation of course...
yes, I saw it, which is why I added in the last line. Thanks for further translation work! It seems like the three of you (namkung, OP, you) agree reasonably on the translation though, apart from some details, and that should go in the OP, so we get three independent names behind it which is much more trustworthy, and sets a good precedent for future drama threads.
We still need to double check the transcript though, which only the OP has quoted without source so far.
But as I'm not a translator myself, i should probably stfu about it. Sorry.
I think someone said something comparing this to football/soccer.
I think that's a smart comparison. If you were in Nani's situation as a football team, and just didn't do anything and afk'd for the whole 90 minutes, how do you think people would react? We talk about E-Sport, now is the time to stay true to all our ramblings.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
You forgot about the part where being a pro gamer doesn't mean anything about playing to win (the tournament) or making money, but driving up their viewer count with entertainment. That's what Mr. Chae thinks a pro-gamer is: A buff wrestler ready to dance on TV to make viewers happy. If you aren't willing to bullshit the audience with a 4 gate to appear like you give the slightest of fucks in a match you have no incentive to win and GOM TV has ALL of the incentive to create more content from, well then you're dishonorable and not even a pro gamer.
Isn't that what all spectator sports are about, to make viewers happy?
The most spectators are there to watch a game that matters. A game in which people give their best not some meaningless half-assed nonsense.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
So forcing a depressed and visibly upset person to play COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS games on stage because it was written down in your schedule is making "the word progamer matter?" Because im pretty sure that just belittles it.
"Depressed and visibly upset" is certainly open to interpretation. It looked to me like he was just completely disinterested. Anyway yes, playing a game that you're scheduled to play, and presumably trying as well, is what being a professional means. You don't throw a juvenile tantrum because you can't win anymore.
Yup those backing naniwa are just as juvenile as he is in that moment. I seriously cannot believe people are supporting the notion of giving up because boohoo my emotions are running me down. This must be the real way of a professional anything. Just give up when you think you have nothing to gain from it but in reality you have much to gain.
Naniwa does not deserve to be called "professional" gamer. Not only did he betrayed his fans but also betrayed other fans of e-sports. E-sports is getting bigger every year because of supportive fans who want to watch entertaining matches between their favourite players. Pro players and pro leagues of any sports exist because fans desire to watch epic matches.
If an immature kid just like Naniwa keeps appearing in e-sports and continues to letting down his fans, the entire e-sports would be nothing but mockery in non e-sports fans.
Naniwa's immature and unprofessional action affects his team and sponsor as well. His behavior directly represents his team and sponsor. If he wants to act like lone prize hunter, then he should leave his team and should refuse all sponsors.
If he's going to keep acting like an ordinary emo gamer, then he should stick to online play and should enjoy his little daily BMs.
DO NOT SUPPORT THIS UNPROFESSIONAL AND IMMATURE PLAYER UNLESS HE APOLOGIZES IN PUBLIC. IT ONLY BRINGS ENTIRE E-SPORTS DOWN.
On December 15 2011 04:51 Jono7272 wrote: Nicely said Mr. Chae. Definitely agree that's how a pro gamer should act.
But going from that to denying him the Code S spot is quite harsh. Then again, what other option was there, a fine was not an option seeing as Naniwa didn't break any rules.
So if you don't break a a rule, you can't be issued a small punishment, but a harsh one is OK? I do not follow that logic.
His Code S spot was never guaranteed, it was an invite seed. For his attitude they changed their mind about inviting him, that's all.
What should be the punishment? As obviously GOM feel he acted immaturely and unprofessional. A fine is not really an option for this kind of misconduct.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
So forcing a depressed and visibly upset person to play COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS games on stage because it was written down in your schedule is making "the word progamer matter?" Because im pretty sure that just belittles it.
Yep. Keep in mind Nestea was in more or less the same position. If he can do it why can't Nani?
Maybe because he understands his own culture better and knows better? Or maybe because you were assuming he wouldn't throw a meaningless game, because he has a track record to do that(and i don't mean against MVP) Like triple expanding, one of them to the gold, is the same thing as worker rushing it just takes 8 mins to lose instead of 2. You have no idea what Nestea was going to do in that game, all we know is he didn't decide to worker rush.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
You forgot about the part where being a pro gamer doesn't mean anything about playing to win (the tournament) or making money, but driving up their viewer count with entertainment. That's what Mr. Chae thinks a pro-gamer is: A buff wrestler ready to dance on TV to make viewers happy. If you aren't willing to bullshit the audience with a 4 gate to appear like you give the slightest of fucks in a match you have no incentive to win and GOM TV has ALL of the incentive to create more content from, well then you're dishonorable and not even a pro gamer.
Isn't that what all spectator sports are about, to make viewers happy?
The most spectators are there to watch a game that matters. A game in which people give their best not some meaningless half-assed nonsense.
People go to regular season games after their team is out of the running. Do you think they expect their team to keep trying? Of course they do, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered to pay money to go to the game.
to those saying this was a meaningless game. naniwa v nestea beef from was it ipl or mlg was huge. and wasnt this match THE MATCH to settle that score? meaningless as in advancing sure, but this game mattered to the fans a whole a lot.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
You forgot about the part where being a pro gamer doesn't mean anything about playing to win (the tournament) or making money, but driving up their viewer count with entertainment. That's what Mr. Chae thinks a pro-gamer is: A buff wrestler ready to dance on TV to make viewers happy. If you aren't willing to bullshit the audience with a 4 gate to appear like you give the slightest of fucks in a match you have no incentive to win and GOM TV has ALL of the incentive to create more content from, well then you're dishonorable and not even a pro gamer.
Ultimately like with all sports, the fans are the most important part. Without fans watching, they could not be paid to be progamers in the first place.
Naturally, pro gamers will put themselves first and that's not wrong, but there's a certain limit with how far you can take that. The standard is a lot lower in the west due to cultural values than it is in korea, so it's understandable the koreans were more offended.
This isn't just for progamers either as athletes get called out all the time for being selfish and unprofessional. Just look at Terrel Owens in the NFL over the years and all the stuff he's done over the years. If you act immature and unprofessional you will get called out on that.
Simply put, if you're worried that you may be forced to play a game that you feel is unnecessary and unimportant, then don't apply for and play in GSL.
The good thing that came out of this is that it is now extremely clear what the expectations are of you if you decide to play in GSL. Either conduct yourself as a professional or GTFO.
On December 15 2011 04:51 Jono7272 wrote: Nicely said Mr. Chae. Definitely agree that's how a pro gamer should act.
But going from that to denying him the Code S spot is quite harsh. Then again, what other option was there, a fine was not an option seeing as Naniwa didn't break any rules.
So if you don't break a a rule, you can't be issued a small punishment, but a harsh one is OK? I do not follow that logic.
His Code S spot was never guaranteed, it was an invite seed. For his attitude they changed their mind about inviting him, that's all.
What should be the punishment? As obviously GOM feel he acted immaturely and unprofessional. A fine is not really an option for this kind of misconduct.
I think teamliquid should to an in-depth article about this and close all other threads with misinformation/partial information/inaccurate translations. This is getting confusing.
On December 15 2011 04:35 Teriyaki-Boy wrote: I don't understand why, people are defending him for acting in such a way and trying to justified the game mean nothing....The game does mean something to the viewers and the fans of Naniwa and Nestea. People need to understand this is a business of entertainment and GOM wanna put out great content for their viewers and E-Sport to grow. I have to agree with the punishment, only caring for your own personal feeling and disregard your jobs is truly unprofessional.
To some viewers. To others, such as myself, it's a meaningless game, a consequence of a bad tournament format, that is being played out as show for the sake of the show. You're asking the players to fake it. That is almost impossible, as can be seen in how Hero didn't play to win in his match against DRG on monday, and almost always results in lackluster games, if not in trouble as we've seen here. It means you have to set a rather arbitrary rule for how much of an effort you're supposed to make. I wan't to see meaningful competition, matches that matter, not something akin to a wrestling match.
.Its like saying fuck your viewers, fuck your tournament. To act on one own feelings and not caring about other in a business environment is unacceptable and i stand by Gom for the Punishment.
This is what I just dont understand... YOu know what I consider "fuck you" to the viewers? Forcing a half assed game between two guys who arent focused down the vciewers throat just because you need to satisfy some artifical hype..
Nani simply felt like he coudlt deliver and didnt try to pretend because he didnt want to waste anyones time.
The tournament was round robin, presumably to let the viewers see all these awesome players play each other.
What is GOM supposed to do, "sorry viewers who paid $10 to see a tournament that's less than a week long, Nani doesn't feel like playing anymore"?
No, they should say:
"After yesterdays events, we would like to apologize to our viewers. In the course of our tournament, in more than one match one of the players participating did not play to win. In the most severe case, the player naniwa probe-rushed to a certain defeat. We do not accept nor condone this behavior. However, we accept that our tournament-format, with matches in which one or both players were already out of the tournament contributed to the situation. As such, we have come to the dicision to penalize the player Naniwa with a fine of 1000$ for not playing to win in the most obvious manner possible. We believe that by this action, and in the future being mindful of the negative consequences of certain tournament formats, we have addressed what many perceived as a disrespectful show by the player naniwa, while at the same time accepting our own culpability. We hope that everyone will accept this solution to an unfortunate situation. Please direct any comments to our forum at blablabla, where well be answering questions and comments."
Add to it an apology and explanation from naniwa and things wouldn't have gotten this out of hand.
On December 15 2011 03:13 Jhax[IRE] wrote: Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum.
wha? have you worked a day in your life?
people should be required to answer "yes" to this question before they comment on the matter.
everybody who works has had days there they really didn't feel like it, but you suck it up and do it anyway because it's your job. Naniwa didn't suck it up. I can understand defending Naniwa himself (i'm sure he's a nice guy and all) but his actions in this instance are inexcusable. Hopefully he learns his lesson from this fiasco.
EPT
Thanks for further translation work!
