On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
So forcing a depressed and visibly upset person to play COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS games on stage because it was written down in your schedule is making "the word progamer matter?" Because im pretty sure that just belittles it.
On December 15 2011 05:04 -DMducky wrote: Coming from a Asian background; If someone walked around my house with their shoes on I would have kicked that person out of my house too...
Overall in my opinion he was being disrespectful. Punishment is harsh, but it was necessary.
Still welcome in my house next time, just has to take the shoes off.
Really? Why not just ask to take their shoes off?
Because if you KNOW you are supposed to take your shoes off, you are probably leaving them on just to be a dick.
Yeah, clearly my intention is to piss everyone off.
Or maybe I realized people usually took their shoes off but the floor was kinda cold and I didn't think you'd mind that much. But now that I'm kicked off I learned.
I don't get GOM, are they trying to shape every progamer as they like just like KEsPA? It's just stupid reason to do this, this man is not a robot but a human.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
So forcing a depressed and visibly upset person to play COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS games on stage because it was written down in your schedule is making "the word progamer matter?" Because im pretty sure that just belittles it.
Yep. Keep in mind Nestea was in more or less the same position. If he can do it why can't Nani?
On December 15 2011 04:35 Teriyaki-Boy wrote: I don't understand why, people are defending him for acting in such a way and trying to justified the game mean nothing....The game does mean something to the viewers and the fans of Naniwa and Nestea. People need to understand this is a business of entertainment and GOM wanna put out great content for their viewers and E-Sport to grow. I have to agree with the punishment, only caring for your own personal feeling and disregard your jobs is truly unprofessional.
To some viewers. To others, such as myself, it's a meaningless game, a consequence of a bad tournament format, that is being played out as show for the sake of the show. You're asking the players to fake it. That is almost impossible, as can be seen in how Hero didn't play to win in his match against DRG on monday, and almost always results in lackluster games, if not in trouble as we've seen here. It means you have to set a rather arbitrary rule for how much of an effort you're supposed to make. I wan't to see meaningful competition, matches that matter, not something akin to a wrestling match.
.Its like saying fuck your viewers, fuck your tournament. To act on one own feelings and not caring about other in a business environment is unacceptable and i stand by Gom for the Punishment.
This is what I just dont understand... YOu know what I consider "fuck you" to the viewers? Forcing a half assed game between two guys who arent focused down the vciewers throat just because you need to satisfy some artifical hype..
Nani simply felt like he coudlt deliver and didnt try to pretend because he didnt want to waste anyones time.
The tournament was round robin, presumably to let the viewers see all these awesome players play each other.
What is GOM supposed to do, "sorry viewers who paid $10 to see a tournament that's less than a week long, Nani doesn't feel like playing anymore"?
"Sorry were not going to play a match when both players obviously cant deliver their a game and its a big waste of time, instead we will move on to the games that matter"
I would have been pissed at GOM if they told me they were canceling the match. People paid to see the advertised matches. Suck it up and at least attempt to do something Nani. You get payed to play a game FFS.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
You forgot about the part where being a pro gamer doesn't mean anything about playing to win (the tournament) or making money, but driving up their viewer count with entertainment. That's what Mr. Chae thinks a pro-gamer is: A buff wrestler ready to dance on TV to make viewers happy. If you aren't willing to bullshit the audience with a 4 gate to appear like you give the slightest of fucks in a match you have no incentive to win and GOM TV has ALL of the incentive to create more content from, well then you're dishonorable and not even a pro gamer.
Isn't that what all spectator sports are about, to make viewers happy?
On December 15 2011 04:02 HandleTaken wrote: I must admit my initial reaction upon hearing about this was: - Sigh, what did Naniwa do this time?
But after reading what actually transpired I think GOM overreacted.
Compare this to the Champions League soccer group game between Dinamo Zagreb vs Lyon. Zagreb had nothing to play for but Lyon did. Lyon won 7 - 1 and advanced from the group. Did Zagreb get thrown out of next CL-season? No, even though that match actually mattered.
I certainly won't subscribe to GSL after something like this happens.
Disciplinary actions regarding Dinamo Zagreb are still ongoing. The first probe for corruption was thrown off, but if Uefa let this pass than the champions league can say goodbye to it's integrity and you know it.
I'm sure Zagreb will get fined and that's exactly what should have happened to Naniwa. Make him pay back his Blizzard cup prize money in a fine (since GOM thinks Naniwa has shown unsportsmanlike behavior). Throwing Naniwa out of next GSL-season is just overdoing it.
Well I agree with you on that I think a monetary fine and a stern warning would have been fine.
On December 15 2011 05:09 Tyrant0 wrote: By siding with GOM you're basically agreeing that shitty 4 gates/6 gates are fun to watch and GOM should provoke more with even MORE inconsequential matches.
Do you know how many times I've seen shitty 4 gates/6 gates win? A lot. A LOT. It is a valid strategy that can actually win the game. Sure, it makes for a short game with either the timing attack working out or not, but there is still at least a game. Watching 8-9 drones surround and kill 7 probes (the probes not being microed whatsoever) is not a game.
On December 15 2011 05:15 TORTOISE wrote: Naniwa threw a hissy fit, and now he suffers the consequences. Funny!
He played a game and gg'd. He didn't scream obscenities, he didn't flip anyone off, he finished a game as quickly as he possibly could and gtfo. People are acting like he ran around the studio urinating on fans. All this shit is over the fact that people were expecting him to canon rush instead of 7 probe rush. If he canon rushes that's a "legit" loss, his 7 probe rush just makes a mockery of the game!
On December 15 2011 05:04 -DMducky wrote: Coming from a Asian background; If someone walked around my house with their shoes on I would have kicked that person out of my house too...
Overall in my opinion he was being disrespectful. Punishment is harsh, but it was necessary.
Still welcome in my house next time, just has to take the shoes off.
Really? Why not just ask to take their shoes off?
Because if you KNOW you are supposed to take your shoes off, you are probably leaving them on just to be a dick.
Eh no that's not a safe assumption. Some countries all people are walking indoors with shoes. Are you just gonna throw them out without even bothering to check if they don't realize they have insulted you? That's weird.
But if you know what country you are in and have a good idea of what their customs and values are, its a different story.
Having been to Korea several times, played in events over there, and just having general knowledge of the Korean Esports scene, Naniwa had to know that this would not go over well.
To those wondering what rule was broken, here you are:
-Warning or disqualification - 경기중에 과격한 행동으로 상대 게이머나 관중들에게 위협을 가할 때 - During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours"
Now i'm sure most of you will say "omg thats so vague!! This doesnt fall under that category!!!"...
Gom decides what is offensive to the opponent or audience and what is abusive behavior.
Guys, there is a reason Naniwa is continually team hopping and kicked out of the EPS, IEM, and now GSL. Continually acting like an asshole will eventually lead to negative consequences.
On December 15 2011 05:11 IPA wrote: We have a lot of people spouting off here about what Naniwa deserves without taking into account his REPEATED acts of immaturity, BM, classlessness, etc etc.
If I do that kind of shit at my job, I get fired. If you don't think esports is going to value professionalism moving forward, you have another thing coming. The sooner we move out of our "we're not like other sports! it's the wild west weeeeee!" attitude, the better.
I applaud Chae for having the guts to deliver a well deserved message to someone who needs to work on his character. His work ethic and ability are outstanding -- now let's see him put some time into building some professional credibility and class.
Enter Nani apologists in 3..2..1.. -- GO!
Nice way to end your post, you are really giving your post credibility there.
And what punishment he deserved should be reserved for what he actually did for the current organization he's working for. And if you get fired for something like that I think you should look for a different job.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
You forgot about the part where being a pro gamer doesn't mean anything about playing to win (the tournament) or making money, but driving up their viewer count with entertainment. That's what Mr. Chae thinks a pro-gamer is: A buff wrestler ready to dance on TV to make viewers happy. If you aren't willing to bullshit the audience with a 4 gate to appear like you give the slightest of fucks in a match you have no incentive to win and GOM TV has ALL of the incentive to create more content from, well then you're dishonorable and not even a pro gamer.
Isn't that what all spectator sports are about, to make viewers happy?
being a pro means it's your job and you have or ought to have certain rights at your job, like not being promised things and then having them taken away without any process or structure to the decisions.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
So forcing a depressed and visibly upset person to play COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS games on stage because it was written down in your schedule is making "the word progamer matter?" Because im pretty sure that just belittles it.
Yep. Keep in mind Nestea was in more or less the same position. If he can do it why can't Nani?
I never knew giving up was part the resume of a professional gamer. What I do know is that real professionals go through ALL trials and tribulations no matter what is thrown at them and they try their best without their emotions getting involved. That is the difference between a professional and a skillful person.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
So forcing a depressed and visibly upset person to play COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS games on stage because it was written down in your schedule is making "the word progamer matter?" Because im pretty sure that just belittles it.
"Depressed and visibly upset" is certainly open to interpretation. It looked to me like he was just completely disinterested. Anyway yes, playing a game that you're scheduled to play, and presumably trying as well, is what being a professional means. You don't throw a juvenile tantrum because you can't win anymore.
On December 15 2011 04:59 GodZo wrote: Naniwa deserves the Code S Spot.
GOM made a mistake in that situation, because it was an insignificant match, and it was much more funny than any other "4 gate" or trash game...
Naniwa didn't offend or hurt anybody. GOM and other persons have not humor, and don't consider the game for what it is, a funny game, not much more.
He actually offended a lot of people. Have you seen what the Koreans are saying about this.
Agreed. Koreans have very different cultural norms and values. Not necessarily better or worse - just different. From a western perspective, this was bm and probably not a wise move, but ultimately forgivable. To them, this was a slap in the face.
I also believe that this harsh punishment was not based solely on his misbehaviour, but also on the way he had acted on other occasions.
- If I recall correctly, Naniwa did not "gg" when he lost his second game against Lucky in Code A
- If I recall correctly, Naniwa said before Blizzcup at the official press conference that it was "just another tournament" for him.
- In the TL-interview after this incident, he stated that he believed Koreans to overreact and that they should calm down.
NOTE: Please correct me if I said something wrong here, don't wanna spread false stuff.
I believe that these things might have influenced GOM's decision. Imagine he had excused for what he did in a formal and regretful manner. May be then things could have gone differently. But I can imagine Naniwa being generally perceived as disrespectful, so that GOM and the officials put on different scales when judging this incident.
EPT
I think a monetary fine and a stern warning would have been fine.
