There is a thread with similar name with incorrect information and it is causing people to believe in false information. So, here it goes.
First of all, what Mr. Chae actually said:
프로게이머라는 직업이 사실은 이겨서 상금을 타가서 그걸로 업을 삼는다고 프로게이머라고 생각하지 않아요 프로게이머라는 직업은 승부를 가리는 것들을 시청자분들에게 보여주고 그것들을 시청자 분들이 열광하고 그것을 통해서 승부를 가리는 것을 직업으로 삼는 선수들을 프로게이머라고 저희가 생각을하고 있기 때문에 저희가 시드를 줬던것은 퀀틱 게이밍의 프로토스 프로게이머 나니와 선수였지 스웨덴에서 게임을 잘하는 청년 요한 루세시는 아니였습니다.
"We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. We think that pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that. We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not the Swedish youth Johan Lucchesi who plays the game well."
There was NO mention of the conduct rule, it being a "punishment", or that he is "an amateur prize money hunter."
Please limit the discussion in this thread to what was said during today's Blizzard cup Korean stream and discuss the issue of NaNiwa & Code S seed in 100 other threads.
Did someone tell them Johan Lucchesi actually is Naniwa?
I mean, he is who he is. Maybe GomTV should be respectful of that instead of trying to mold him into their personally preferred type of pro-gamer persona. I'm not seeing other tournaments having this problem.
Hm, so I guess they wanted to say something along the lines that they invited a good player to play in GSL, but not the character that Naniwa is? I don't really know, this is all pretty confusing (0.o)
Sorry about misinforming. The quote was from a friend of mine who watched it in Korea which I shouldn't have posted if I wasn't sure about the source. Thank you for your contribution.
Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum.
That sounds alot more reasonable and appropiate (although the last bit is a bit weird) and what you'd expect to hear then the sensational "amateur prize hunter"
On December 15 2011 03:07 PraetorianX wrote: Did someone tell them Johan Lucchesi actually is Naniwa?
I mean, he is who he is. Maybe GomTV should be respectful of that instead of trying to mold him into their personally preferred type of pro-gamer persona. I'm not seeing other tournaments having this problem.
I think you dont get what they want to say.
@OP: If that is what Mr. Chae actually said, i have to take back my claims of him beeing unprofessional and more amateurish than naniwa himself. This is quite a good statement i have to say.
edit: Although i dont agree completly with what he said.
On December 15 2011 03:12 CryingPoo wrote: Sorry about misinforming. The quote was from a friend of mine who watched it in Korea which I shouldn't have posted if I wasn't sure about the source. Thank you for your contribution.
Euhhh???? Wait, you are telling us that everybody has discussed for hours about a third hand quote? This is becoming priceless.
On December 15 2011 03:13 Jhax[IRE] wrote: Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum.
I really hope it is true that they did not call him an amateur prize money hunter. Would like to see this sourced some more so that we can understand what happened.
With the last part of the quote he probably means they invited and (still) respect Naniwa for his game, and that the person behind that gamer did the things he did. Some deep shit, maybe some got lost in translation there too.
On December 15 2011 03:12 CryingPoo wrote: Sorry about misinforming. The quote was from a friend of mine who watched it in Korea which I shouldn't have posted if I wasn't sure about the source. Thank you for your contribution.
That's messed up.. gonna discuss what we want to do with these topics.
Uh I'll give it a shot at clarifying the last statement. "The person we gave the [Code S] seed to was Quintic Gaming's Protoss progamer Naniwa, not 'pretty good gamer from Sweden called Johan Lucchesi'."
Well, that's basically what was said in the OP, nevermind lol.
On December 15 2011 03:07 PraetorianX wrote: Did someone tell them Johan Lucchesi actually is Naniwa?
I mean, he is who he is. Maybe GomTV should be respectful of that instead of trying to mold him into their personally preferred type of pro-gamer persona. I'm not seeing other tournaments having this problem.
I thought the same, it is rude to split him up into johan lucchesi the guy with no manner, and naniwa the beastly protoss pro gamer. still the punishment was right and I like admins that stick to the rules for EVERYONE(coca, naniwa). soccer teams play with their b-team when it doesnt matter, but not with their mascots(aka. probes)
I think the intent was that they gave it to Naniwa, the pro player (i.e. gives the best for all games) instead of Johan Lucchesi, who probe rushed. Pretty sure they know that Johan Lucchesi is Naniwa.
On December 15 2011 03:04 NHY wrote: Please limit the discussion in this thread to what was said during today's Blizzard cup Korean stream and discuss the issue of NaNiwa & Code S seed in 100 other threads.
So... THEY GAVE THE SEED, therefore they are taking it back, therefore Naniwa is indeed losing it because of what he did.
So, it's not about "not getting invited anymore"... they taked back the seed. There was indeed a "contract".
how can we trust any of those source, anyway, since it does seem like translations are changing every hour?
On December 15 2011 03:04 NHY wrote: Please limit the discussion in this thread to what was said during today's Blizzard cup Korean stream and discuss the issue of NaNiwa & Code S seed in 100 other threads.
So... THEY GAVE THE SEED, therefore they are taking it back, therefore Naniwa is indeed losing it because of what he did.
So, it's not about "not getting invited anymore"... they taked back the seed. There was indeed a "contract".
how can we trust any of those source, anyway, since it does seem like translations are changing every hour?
1) Stay on topic please 2) I don't know how you can read what I wrote like that.
This seems much better and more likely than what was reported in the first thread; it also shows a certain degree of mercy. Edit: why are so many people having a hard time figuring out what he meant? English 101, anyone? ._.
Waiiittt....so all that we've been discussing so far about Mr. Chae hasn't been based on a proper cited source until now? :/ I really want to know what's actually going on D:
On December 15 2011 03:04 NHY wrote: Please limit the discussion in this thread to what was said during today's Blizzard cup Korean stream and discuss the issue of NaNiwa & Code S seed in 100 other threads.
So... THEY GAVE THE SEED, therefore they are taking it back, therefore Naniwa is indeed losing it because of what he did.
So, it's not about "not getting invited anymore"... they taked back the seed. There was indeed a "contract".
how can we trust any of those source, anyway, since it does seem like translations are changing every hour?
1) Stay on topic please 2) I don't know how you can read what I wrote like that.
That was ironic. An example of what everyone is doing with every quote, twisting fact to fit their opinion, again and again until everyone is confused.
If that is what Mr. Chae actually said, then he did it with the highest level of professionalism. I support GOM's decision and I suport Naniwa. I believe he will come back as a much better player and much better person. NaNi fighting!
So... THEY GAVE THE SEED, therefore they are taking it back, therefore Naniwa is indeed losing it because of what he did.
I think the point of the "we gave the seed" business was them saying that they had intended the seed for someone who's playing for their team and sponsors; the inclusion of Quantic Gaming's name in the original quote isn't something to gloss over. He's making a distinction between QxGNaNiwa, who has a professional obligation to Quantic (it's right there in the name!), and Johan Lucchesi the person, because they are somewhat separate entities. What NaNiwa did was understandable and human when you consider him as an island unto himself, but what he did was inappropriate for QxGNaNiwa to do as a representative of other people.
On December 15 2011 03:23 WigglingSquid wrote: This seems much better and more likely than what was reported in the first thread; it also shows a certain degree of mercy. Edit: why are so many people having a hard time figuring out what he meant? English 101, anyone? ._.
Because it appears that he is treating naniwa and Johan as two entities,
What he's saying is they Invited a professional, and were given an amateur so they are pulling the seed? That's the correct interpretation?
On December 15 2011 03:13 Jhax[IRE] wrote: Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum.
In this case you have to face the results.
Also, this 99% thing is BS. If I´d believe 99% of the worlds population are arrogant, immature, disrespectful kids I would go kill myself.
On December 15 2011 03:19 stokes17 wrote: So does he(Naniwa=Johan) have a code S seed or no? I am so very confused by that statement.
No. He had it, but lost it and it was given to Sen.
If anything it was given to idra and sen was going to get the other invite. Idra had already been invited to up and down matches with demuslim but now he got a bump up to code S
So... THEY GAVE THE SEED, therefore they are taking it back, therefore Naniwa is indeed losing it because of what he did.
I think the point of the "we gave the seed" business was them saying that they had intended the seed for someone who's playing for their team and sponsors; the inclusion of Quantic Gaming's name in the original quote isn't something to gloss over. He's making a distinction between QxGNaNiwa, who has a professional obligation to Quantic (it's right there in the name!), and Johan Lucchesi the person, because they are somewhat separate entities. What NaNiwa did was understandable and human when you consider him as an island unto himself, but what he did was inappropriate for QxGNaNiwa to do as a representative of other people.
Not to mention as a representative of the GSL as a whole. If I recall right they've taken action on behaviour by individual players on the ladder (choya?), completely unrelated to the GSL itself. This is mr. Chae saying that there is such a thing as a higher standard for pro-gamers when it comes to the GSL.
Information is flying around at the speed of light!
But I think in the end of the day, the facts are pretty clear, no matter the wording of what was said: - Naniwa was originally going to be one of the Code S seeds, but this privilege has now been taken back. If he was not going to be a seed, GOM would've quickly jumped in to clarify things when it was announced that Naniwa was playing in Code S.
- I think that GOM has a reasonable justification of revoking the Code S privilege, based on what happened (Naniwa probe rushing). I think it's less harsh in banning him for one season.
- The choice of language by GOM was due to mis-translations.
- And I'm pretty sure this revised translation by the OP means that Mr Chae is saying that the professional gamer Naniwa was invited to Code S, not some guy "Johan Lucchesi who plays SC2", implying that as a professional, you need to adhere to certain standards and not do what you like, as Johan Lucchesi would do.
On December 15 2011 03:29 labbe wrote: "We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not to Johan Lucchesi from Sweden, who plays the game well."
Newsflash Mr. Chae: That's the same person.
You're taking it too literally. That's not what he meant. Read nazgul's post.
please merge all the info into one thread and make it official. this has become one of the messiest, most convoluted sagas in the history of starcraft.
The "amateur prize money hunter" seems like something that may have come from DCInside which is where people are likely to reduce this statement from Mr Chae to that simple phrase (아마추어 상금헌터) which is sort of an internet phrase that people on a broadcast are unlikely to say.
On December 15 2011 03:29 labbe wrote: "We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not to Johan Lucchesi from Sweden, who plays the game well."
On December 15 2011 03:04 NHY wrote: There is a thread with similar name with incorrect information and it is causing people to believe in false information. But I was told to piss off by OP of that thread so there is no chance he'll change what he wrote now. So, here it goes.
프로게이머라는 직업이 사실은 이겨서 상금을 타가서 그걸로 업을 삼는다고 프로게이머라고 생각하지 않아요 프로게이머라는 직업은 승부를 가리는 것들을 시청자분들에게 보여주고 그것들을 시청자 분들이 열광하고 그것을 통해서 승부를 가리는 것을 직업으로 삼는 선수들을 프로게이머라고 저희가 생각을하고 있기 때문에 저희가 시드를 줬던것은 퀀틱 게이밍의 프로토스 프로게이머 나니와 선수였지 스웨덴에서 게임을 잘하는 청년 요한 루세시는 아니였습니다.
"We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. We think that pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that. We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not to Johan Lucchesi from Sweden, who plays the game well."
There was NO mention of the conduct rule, it being a "punishment", or that he is "an amateur prize money hunter."
Please limit the discussion in this thread to what was said during today's Blizzard cup Korean stream and discuss the issue of NaNiwa & Code S seed in 100 other threads.
Ok, that's very good information, thanks.
And just to get this 100% sure, and avoid the same mistake again, can an independent translator go watch the stream and check that this transcript and translation is correct? Not that I don't trust you NHY, just to convince the most stubborn posters.
And if we get that, then maybe a link to it in the OP. cheers.
On December 15 2011 03:29 labbe wrote: "We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not to Johan Lucchesi from Sweden, who plays the game well."
Newsflash Mr. Chae: That's the same person.
Mr. Chae pulling some deep metaphor. He expected Naniwa to be a professional gamer but he acted like a kid himself. Kid's fault should be punished hard you know. Is it that hard to comprehend ? GJ for keep it classy Mr Chae
On December 15 2011 03:20 CryingPoo wrote: I also have changed the post that I made and made a referral to your thread. Once again I am deeply sorry.
This is a gross error that cannot be remedied by a simple apology. Instances like this and the misjudgements made about EG in the Providence writeup by Heyoka underscore the significant detriment to TL caused by poor reporting/journalism. Without enforcing the commentary before it is published, or prefacing controversial posts with "These statements are unvalidated and unconfirmed", all information that comes out of TL can only be taken as a rumor and possibly, entirely untrue. Posters with a lack of judgement and discretion, like CryingPoo and heyoka only serve to bring down the credibility of TL as a reputable source of information for Starcraft 2.
You guys shouldn't forget that they are running a business that prides in providing adequate content for paying customers (and free alike). If they let players dictate how they throw games through half-arsed attempts there'd be no one watching, and GOM wouldn't be running the premier tournament dedicated pros would aim/dream on winning. They did the right thing by revoking the invite.
Westerners should just stick to foreign tournaments if they can't handle the consuquences of their actions.
On December 15 2011 03:20 CryingPoo wrote: I also have changed the post that I made and made a referral to your thread. Once again I am deeply sorry.
This is a gross error that cannot be remedied by a simple apology. Instances like this and the misjudgements made about EG in the Providence writeup by Heyoka underscore the significant detriment to TL caused by poor reporting/journalism. Without enforcing the commentary before it is published, or prefacing controversial posts with "These statements are unvalidated and unconfirmed", all information that comes out of TL can only be taken as a rumor and possibly, entirely untrue. Posters with a lack of judgement and discretion, like CryingPoo and heyoka only serve to bring down the credibility of TL as a reputable source of information for Starcraft 2.
This is a completely different, yet very valid topic that probably warrants its own discussion and shouldn't override the primary topic at hand here.
On December 15 2011 03:29 labbe wrote: "We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not to Johan Lucchesi from Sweden, who plays the game well."
Newsflash Mr. Chae: That's the same person.
Mr. Chae pulling some deep metaphor. He expected Naniwa to be a professional gamer but he acted like a kid himself. Kid's fault should be punished hard you know. Is it that hard to comprehend ? GJ for keep it classy Mr Chae
He probably should not have used a metaphor. Judging by some responses in this thread, people are taking the metaphor literally.
On December 15 2011 03:20 CryingPoo wrote: I also have changed the post that I made and made a referral to your thread. Once again I am deeply sorry.
This is a gross error that cannot be remedied by a simple apology. Instances like this and the misjudgements made about EG in the Providence writeup by Heyoka underscore the significant detriment to TL caused by poor reporting/journalism. Without enforcing the commentary before it is published, or prefacing controversial posts with "These statements are unvalidated and unconfirmed", all information that comes out of TL can only be taken as a rumor and possibly, entirely untrue. Posters with a lack of judgement and discretion, like CryingPoo and heyoka only serve to bring down the credibility of TL as a reputable source of information for Starcraft 2.
Because writing an opinion piece about EG's pro house, even if its an unpopular opinion, and someone posting blatantly wrong information is the same thing.
Well, at least Naniwa got away relatively unscathed, if you compare it to what Gom did to Choya or what Slayers did to Violet before Gom could do anything. Kind of happy, kind of sad, but to put it in Nani's words: "It's okay.".
On December 15 2011 03:20 CryingPoo wrote: I also have changed the post that I made and made a referral to your thread. Once again I am deeply sorry.
This is a gross error that cannot be remedied by a simple apology. Instances like this and the misjudgements made about EG in the Providence writeup by Heyoka underscore the significant detriment to TL caused by poor reporting/journalism. Without enforcing the commentary before it is published, or prefacing controversial posts with "These statements are unvalidated and unconfirmed", all information that comes out of TL can only be taken as a rumor and possibly, entirely untrue. Posters with a lack of judgement and discretion, like CryingPoo and heyoka only serve to bring down the credibility of TL as a reputable source of information for Starcraft 2.
I am very sorry. I have been doing translating for a bit now and my intention was never to hurt a reputation of TL or cause a disruptions. I fully understand your anger and I hope you could forgive me someday. I will try my best to be extremely careful in the future.
They say that pro gaming is about competition yet they seed lesser players straight into code S, thereby trivializing the hardships alot of the great code B/A korean players have endured. Keep in mind they make shit compared to top foreigners even though they're probably as good or better.
Before people comment about me being from sweden. I'm not a Naniwa fan, and i would say the same thing if the kicked player came from the US or China.
On December 15 2011 03:07 PraetorianX wrote: Did someone tell them Johan Lucchesi actually is Naniwa?
I mean, he is who he is. Maybe GomTV should be respectful of that instead of trying to mold him into their personally preferred type of pro-gamer persona. I'm not seeing other tournaments having this problem.
Naniwa is in their country, playing in their tournament. He chose not to abide by their standards and rules, and so he was punished. This is actually helpful to Naniwa. It's a wake-up call that he doesn't get to do whatever he wants.
On December 15 2011 03:29 labbe wrote: "We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not to Johan Lucchesi from Sweden, who plays the game well."
Newsflash Mr. Chae: That's the same person.
Mr. Chae pulling some deep metaphor. He expected Naniwa to be a professional gamer but he acted like a kid himself. Kid's fault should be punished hard you know. Is it that hard to comprehend ? GJ for keep it classy Mr Chae
He probably should not have used a metaphor. Judging by some responses in this thread, people are taking the metaphor literally.
It probably made more sense in Korean, you can't expect him to think about how people will translate it to English. The idea is pretty clear in any case.
On December 15 2011 03:29 labbe wrote: "We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not to Johan Lucchesi from Sweden, who plays the game well."
Newsflash Mr. Chae: That's the same person.
Mr. Chae pulling some deep metaphor. He expected Naniwa to be a professional gamer but he acted like a kid himself. Kid's fault should be punished hard you know. Is it that hard to comprehend ? GJ for keep it classy Mr Chae
He probably should not have used a metaphor. Judging by some responses in this thread, people are taking the metaphor literally.
lets be honest. It's not hard to understand what he had to say at all. Are you Swede also ? As the spokesperson of GOMTV, Mr. Chae got to deliver that way. In the back hes probably like 'fuck this shit'
On December 15 2011 03:20 CryingPoo wrote: I also have changed the post that I made and made a referral to your thread. Once again I am deeply sorry.
This is a gross error that cannot be remedied by a simple apology. Instances like this and the misjudgements made about EG in the Providence writeup by Heyoka underscore the significant detriment to TL caused by poor reporting/journalism. Without enforcing the commentary before it is published, or prefacing controversial posts with "These statements are unvalidated and unconfirmed", all information that comes out of TL can only be taken as a rumor and possibly, entirely untrue. Posters with a lack of judgement and discretion, like CryingPoo and heyoka only serve to bring down the credibility of TL as a reputable source of information for Starcraft 2.
I am very sorry. I have been doing translating for a bit now and my intention was never to hurt a reputation of TL or cause a disruptions. I fully understand your anger and I hope you could forgive me someday. I will try my best to be extremely careful in the future.
That's a pretty legit apology. Thank you, and please do just that.
On December 15 2011 03:20 CryingPoo wrote: I also have changed the post that I made and made a referral to your thread. Once again I am deeply sorry.
This is a gross error that cannot be remedied by a simple apology. Instances like this and the misjudgements made about EG in the Providence writeup by Heyoka underscore the significant detriment to TL caused by poor reporting/journalism. Without enforcing the commentary before it is published, or prefacing controversial posts with "These statements are unvalidated and unconfirmed", all information that comes out of TL can only be taken as a rumor and possibly, entirely untrue. Posters with a lack of judgement and discretion, like CryingPoo and heyoka only serve to bring down the credibility of TL as a reputable source of information for Starcraft 2.
I am very sorry. I have been doing translating for a bit now and my intention was never to hurt a reputation of TL or cause a disruptions. I fully understand your anger and I hope you could forgive me someday. I will try my best to be extremely careful in the future.
I've read a bunch of your translations and they are usually really good. So I believe you that it was an honest mistake...
But, damn dood your name certainly does not inspire confidence. Like would you want to read a translation done by a cryingpoo? Idn, imho if you want to keep translating for TL, maybe make a more innocuous name?
On December 15 2011 03:20 CryingPoo wrote: I also have changed the post that I made and made a referral to your thread. Once again I am deeply sorry.
This is a gross error that cannot be remedied by a simple apology. Instances like this and the misjudgements made about EG in the Providence writeup by Heyoka underscore the significant detriment to TL caused by poor reporting/journalism. Without enforcing the commentary before it is published, or prefacing controversial posts with "These statements are unvalidated and unconfirmed", all information that comes out of TL can only be taken as a rumor and possibly, entirely untrue. Posters with a lack of judgement and discretion, like CryingPoo and heyoka only serve to bring down the credibility of TL as a reputable source of information for Starcraft 2.
I am very sorry. I have been doing translating for a bit now and my intention was never to hurt a reputation of TL or cause a disruptions. I fully understand your anger and I hope you could forgive me someday. I will try my best to be extremely careful in the future.
Well, while you do deserve a ban for posting incorrect and very inflammatory information, only you cannot be blamed for the hundreds of pages of drama. People should know better than trust a random poster with this kind of information. We all just got caught up and forgot to really question the source of that piece of information.
On December 15 2011 03:04 NHY wrote: There is a thread with similar name with incorrect information and it is causing people to believe in false information. But I was told to piss off by OP of that thread so there is no chance he'll change what he wrote now. So, here it goes.
First of all, what Mr. Chae actually said:
프로게이머라는 직업이 사실은 이겨서 상금을 타가서 그걸로 업을 삼는다고 프로게이머라고 생각하지 않아요 프로게이머라는 직업은 승부를 가리는 것들을 시청자분들에게 보여주고 그것들을 시청자 분들이 열광하고 그것을 통해서 승부를 가리는 것을 직업으로 삼는 선수들을 프로게이머라고 저희가 생각을하고 있기 때문에 저희가 시드를 줬던것은 퀀틱 게이밍의 프로토스 프로게이머 나니와 선수였지 스웨덴에서 게임을 잘하는 청년 요한 루세시는 아니였습니다.
"We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. We think that pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that. We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not to Johan Lucchesi from Sweden, who plays the game well."
There was NO mention of the conduct rule, it being a "punishment", or that he is "an amateur prize money hunter."
Please limit the discussion in this thread to what was said during today's Blizzard cup Korean stream and discuss the issue of NaNiwa & Code S seed in 100 other threads.
Ok, that's very good information, thanks.
And just to get this 100% sure, and avoid the same mistake again, can an independent translator go watch the stream and check that this transcript and translation is correct? Not that I don't trust you NHY, just to convince the most stubborn posters.
And if we get that, then maybe a link to it in the OP. cheers.
I can translate (and I did translate the last bit, independently, on page 1, right below Nazgul's post) based on the Korean text provided, but I don't know where to look for the source (stream).
Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer
Mr. Chae is right, playing for victory is what it's all about. Shame that he doesn't realize that there can be no victory when both players are out 0-3 from the tournament.
On December 15 2011 03:04 NHY wrote: There is a thread with similar name with incorrect information and it is causing people to believe in false information. But I was told to piss off by OP of that thread so there is no chance he'll change what he wrote now. So, here it goes.
First of all, what Mr. Chae actually said:
프로게이머라는 직업이 사실은 이겨서 상금을 타가서 그걸로 업을 삼는다고 프로게이머라고 생각하지 않아요 프로게이머라는 직업은 승부를 가리는 것들을 시청자분들에게 보여주고 그것들을 시청자 분들이 열광하고 그것을 통해서 승부를 가리는 것을 직업으로 삼는 선수들을 프로게이머라고 저희가 생각을하고 있기 때문에 저희가 시드를 줬던것은 퀀틱 게이밍의 프로토스 프로게이머 나니와 선수였지 스웨덴에서 게임을 잘하는 청년 요한 루세시는 아니였습니다.
"We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. We think that pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that. We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not to Johan Lucchesi from Sweden, who plays the game well."
There was NO mention of the conduct rule, it being a "punishment", or that he is "an amateur prize money hunter."
Please limit the discussion in this thread to what was said during today's Blizzard cup Korean stream and discuss the issue of NaNiwa & Code S seed in 100 other threads.
Ok, that's very good information, thanks.
And just to get this 100% sure, and avoid the same mistake again, can an independent translator go watch the stream and check that this transcript and translation is correct? Not that I don't trust you NHY, just to convince the most stubborn posters.
And if we get that, then maybe a link to it in the OP. cheers.
I can translate (and I did translate the last bit, independently, on page 1, right below Nazgul's post) based on the Korean text provided, but I don't know where to look for the source (stream).
It should be on gomtv.com but people outside Korea can't watch it.
On December 15 2011 03:04 NHY wrote: There is a thread with similar name with incorrect information and it is causing people to believe in false information. But I was told to piss off by OP of that thread so there is no chance he'll change what he wrote now. So, here it goes.
First of all, what Mr. Chae actually said:
프로게이머라는 직업이 사실은 이겨서 상금을 타가서 그걸로 업을 삼는다고 프로게이머라고 생각하지 않아요 프로게이머라는 직업은 승부를 가리는 것들을 시청자분들에게 보여주고 그것들을 시청자 분들이 열광하고 그것을 통해서 승부를 가리는 것을 직업으로 삼는 선수들을 프로게이머라고 저희가 생각을하고 있기 때문에 저희가 시드를 줬던것은 퀀틱 게이밍의 프로토스 프로게이머 나니와 선수였지 스웨덴에서 게임을 잘하는 청년 요한 루세시는 아니였습니다.
"We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. We think that pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that. We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not to Johan Lucchesi from Sweden, who plays the game well."
There was NO mention of the conduct rule, it being a "punishment", or that he is "an amateur prize money hunter."
Please limit the discussion in this thread to what was said during today's Blizzard cup Korean stream and discuss the issue of NaNiwa & Code S seed in 100 other threads.
Ok, that's very good information, thanks.
And just to get this 100% sure, and avoid the same mistake again, can an independent translator go watch the stream and check that this transcript and translation is correct? Not that I don't trust you NHY, just to convince the most stubborn posters.
And if we get that, then maybe a link to it in the OP. cheers.
I can translate (and I did translate the last bit, independently, on page 1, right below Nazgul's post) based on the Korean text provided, but I don't know where to look for the source (stream).
ok, nice. Get this guy a VOD link and a quote in the OP and we are set.
On December 15 2011 03:20 CryingPoo wrote: I also have changed the post that I made and made a referral to your thread. Once again I am deeply sorry.
This is a gross error that cannot be remedied by a simple apology. Instances like this and the misjudgements made about EG in the Providence writeup by Heyoka underscore the significant detriment to TL caused by poor reporting/journalism. Without enforcing the commentary before it is published, or prefacing controversial posts with "These statements are unvalidated and unconfirmed", all information that comes out of TL can only be taken as a rumor and possibly, entirely untrue. Posters with a lack of judgement and discretion, like CryingPoo and heyoka only serve to bring down the credibility of TL as a reputable source of information for Starcraft 2.
I am very sorry. I have been doing translating for a bit now and my intention was never to hurt a reputation of TL or cause a disruptions. I fully understand your anger and I hope you could forgive me someday. I will try my best to be extremely careful in the future.
I've read a bunch of your translations and they are usually really good. So I believe you that it was an honest mistake...
But, damn dood your name certainly does not inspire confidence. Like would you want to read a translation done by a cryingpoo? Idn, imho if you want to keep translating for TL, maybe make a more innocuous name?
: ( I have requested the change.. hope it happens soon enough. Thank you for your understanding.. I never meant to bring a wrong news as I also believed that was what happened.. I have been bit offensive in the last couple of days as I was abused by people who thought I 'wrote' the article from Thisisgame, when I only translated... I guess I was bit over myself and was also offensive to this OP who could make a real contribution to this situation.. Once again I am deeply sorry.. I am also emailing Mr.Chae to explain what I did..
On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote: Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer
There was no contractual agreement. MLG/GSL did not extend to 2012 >.< Naniwa did not have a spot, was only a candidate due to his performance. But this is not the purpose of this thread.
On December 15 2011 03:13 Jhax[IRE] wrote: Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum.
The difference is if you are a pro gamer, you still want to play. And if you are great pro gamer, you still want to win, despite the result would mean shit.
I can see why this happened and basically get behind it.... EXCEPT
Nestea did this at the last game of Blizzcon. The only difference is it took (56?) or so minutes, was against a teammate, and had an actual consequence. Yet no peep from any of these pro-gaming philosophers. Naniwa deserved some punishment, be it the boot or a fine of some kind, but every time someone at GOM or the head coach of IM (especially him, god wish he didn't have a twitter) talks about pro gamer ideals as the basis for this punishment, I'm reminded of that travesty of a game.
I'm glad there's rules. I just wish they were applied uniformly (and if this is an ideological thing then yes, the Blizzcon games fall under jurisdiction as far as I'm concerned).
On December 15 2011 03:47 KingVietKong wrote: I can see why this happened and basically get behind it.... EXCEPT
Nestea did this at the last game of Blizzcon. The only difference is it took (56?) or so minutes, was against a teammate, and had an actual consequence. Yet no peep from any of these pro-gaming philosophers. Naniwa deserved some punishment, be it the boot or a fine of some kind, but every time someone at GOM or the head coach of IM (especially him, god wish he didn't have a twitter) talks about pro gamer ideals as the basis for this punishment, I'm reminded of that travesty of a game.
I'm glad there's rules. I just wish they were applied uniformly (and if this is an ideological thing then yes, the Blizzcon games fall under jurisdiction as far as I'm concerned).
uhh your assumption of nestea throwing is completely speculative. Naniwa himself said he threw the game.
On December 15 2011 03:47 KingVietKong wrote: I can see why this happened and basically get behind it.... EXCEPT
Nestea did this at the last game of Blizzcon. The only difference is it took (56?) or so minutes, was against a teammate, and had an actual consequence. Yet no peep from any of these pro-gaming philosophers. Naniwa deserved some punishment, be it the boot or a fine of some kind, but every time someone at GOM or the head coach of IM (especially him, god wish he didn't have a twitter) talks about pro gamer ideals as the basis for this punishment, I'm reminded of that travesty of a game.
I'm glad there's rules. I just wish they were applied uniformly (and if this is an ideological thing then yes, the Blizzcon games fall under jurisdiction as far as I'm concerned).
You've just slandered someone without any proof which is absolutely ridiculous
On December 15 2011 03:12 CryingPoo wrote: Sorry about misinforming. The quote was from a friend of mine who watched it in Korea which I shouldn't have posted if I wasn't sure about the source. Thank you for your contribution.
On December 15 2011 03:15 OpticalShot wrote: Uh I'll give it a shot at clarifying the last statement. "The person we gave the [Code S] seed to was Quintic Gaming's Protoss progamer Naniwa, not 'pretty good gamer from Sweden called Johan Lucchesi'."
Well, that's basically what was said in the OP, nevermind lol.
This makes a great deal of sense, it makes way more sense then the last thread. I understand what Mr. Chae is trying to communicate here, they want him to perform at the progamer standard, awesome. OMG that last thread -_-
Being frustrated and doing a probe rush in a meaningless game produces a thread of 265 pages... It's like the yellow press trying to produce some story from meaningless shit ("look at Justin Bieber's dress today wohoooo!") - come on guys. Naniwa played drone rush, so what? Overreaction everywhere.
On December 15 2011 03:20 CryingPoo wrote: I also have changed the post that I made and made a referral to your thread. Once again I am deeply sorry.
This is a gross error that cannot be remedied by a simple apology. Instances like this and the misjudgements made about EG in the Providence writeup by Heyoka underscore the significant detriment to TL caused by poor reporting/journalism. Without enforcing the commentary before it is published, or prefacing controversial posts with "These statements are unvalidated and unconfirmed", all information that comes out of TL can only be taken as a rumor and possibly, entirely untrue. Posters with a lack of judgement and discretion, like CryingPoo and heyoka only serve to bring down the credibility of TL as a reputable source of information for Starcraft 2.
I am very sorry. I have been doing translating for a bit now and my intention was never to hurt a reputation of TL or cause a disruptions. I fully understand your anger and I hope you could forgive me someday. I will try my best to be extremely careful in the future.
I've read a bunch of your translations and they are usually really good. So I believe you that it was an honest mistake...
But, damn dood your name certainly does not inspire confidence. Like would you want to read a translation done by a cryingpoo? Idn, imho if you want to keep translating for TL, maybe make a more innocuous name?
: ( I have requested the change.. hope it happens soon enough. Thank you for your understanding.. I never meant to bring a wrong news as I also believed that was what happened.. I have been bit offensive in the last couple of days as I was abused by people who thought I 'wrote' the article from Thisisgame, when I only translated... I guess I was bit over myself and was also offensive to this OP who could make a real contribution to this situation.. Once again I am deeply sorry.. I am also emailing Mr.Chae to explain what I did..
As I understand these things, the mods prefer that you just create a new account at that point, specially if you have quite few posts as you do. (not sure though, wait for info from mods.) You will lose 177 posts, but maybe that is not the end of the world. Also you will not be associated to this event, which may be convenient.
On December 15 2011 03:04 NHY wrote: Please limit the discussion in this thread to what was said during today's Blizzard cup Korean stream and discuss the issue of NaNiwa & Code S seed in 100 other threads.
So... THEY GAVE THE SEED, therefore they are taking it back, therefore Naniwa is indeed losing it because of what he did.
So, it's not about "not getting invited anymore"... they taked back the seed. There was indeed a "contract".
how can we trust any of those source, anyway, since it does seem like translations are changing every hour?
1) Stay on topic please 2) I don't know how you can read what I wrote like that.
That was ironic. An example of what everyone is doing with every quote, twisting fact to fit their opinion, again and again until everyone is confused.
My bad, I forgot that was included in Mr. Chae's remarks.
Back to what Mr. Chae said "We gave the seed..." This is in contrast to something like "NaNiwa won the seed..."
Earlier in the broadcast, it was mentioned that Idra/NaNiwa were going to receive 2 Code S seeds but there has been a change and Idra/Sen will receive the seed. So it seems reasonable that he meant to say "we were going to give the seed..." But it's a live broadcast and he isn't reading from a script so thing like this happens.
The central point was 1) It was GOM giving the seed 2) They changed their plan because of so on and so on.
They are revoking Naniwa's invites on arguments based on morality and honor, and at the same time giving a seed to Idra, a player that's very famous for insulting his opponents when he loses. Does anyone else think this is a bit wierd?
On December 15 2011 03:51 labbe wrote: They are revoking Naniwa's invites on arguments based on morality and honor, and at the same time giving a seed to Idra, a player that's very famous for insulting his opponents when he loses. Does anyone else think this is a bit wierd?
They ignored Naniwa's past history. Idra never bm'd in their tournament or the 2 years he spent in Korea.
This whole thing is way out of proportion, I hope Mr. Chae releases a statement to clear things up. I think they were in their rights to punish Naniwa, but it seems to me that he didn't really violate anything in terms of my personal viewing expectations.
I don't want this whole Korean vs. Foreigner expectations thing to be such a big deal, because I really love the direction GOM has taken their format and think that the more top level (cough STEPHANO) foreigners that get to go into that talent pool the better we will all be for it.
On December 15 2011 03:51 labbe wrote: They are revoking Naniwa's invites on arguments based on morality and honor, and at the same time giving a seed to Idra, a player that's very famous for insulting his opponents when he loses. Does anyone else think this is a bit wierd?
IdrA already showed that he is able to live in korea and do fine. He played for long in CJ and even competed in the GSL. If anything, IdrA changed for the better.
I'm very happy that GOM's response was infinitely more measured than what was claimed. Also whoever said he was called a money grubbing hunter or whatever should be ashamed for tarnishing GOM's reputation.
On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote: Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer
There was no contractual agreement. MLG/GSL did not extend to 2012 >.< Naniwa did not have a spot, was only a candidate due to his performance. But this is not the purpose of this thread.
In that case they forgot to tell both MLG and the rest of the world. Check out this guys compilation of MLG-quotes saying Naniwa won a code S-seed:
GOM has still not owned up to the their terrible tournament format. I don't care that NaNiWa was take out of Code S because of his manners, or his emotions, or whatever. I'm still waiting for GOMtv to say that they shouldn't have put those two players in a situation where their match would be utterly meaningless. It's absolutely abysmal tournament structure.
On December 15 2011 03:14 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I really hope it is true that they did not call him an amateur prize money hunter. Would like to see this sourced some more so that we can understand what happened.
With the last part of the quote he probably means they invited and (still) respect Naniwa for his game, and that the person behind that gamer did the things he did. Some deep shit, maybe some got lost in translation there too.
On December 15 2011 03:12 CryingPoo wrote: Sorry about misinforming. The quote was from a friend of mine who watched it in Korea which I shouldn't have posted if I wasn't sure about the source. Thank you for your contribution.
That's messed up.. gonna discuss what we want to do with these topics.
Although he didn't straight up say it. Mr. Chae basically called him an amatuer that plays the game for money just in not such a blatant + Show Spoiler +
On December 15 2011 03:51 labbe wrote: They are revoking Naniwa's invites on arguments based on morality and honor, and at the same time giving a seed to Idra, a player that's very famous for insulting his opponents when he loses. Does anyone else think this is a bit wierd?
Not really.
They revoked (or just didn't give to begin with) Naniwa's seed based upon one specific instance of poor conduct that the GSL believed was disresectful to their league, their sponsors, and their fans.
Further, Idra's BM is much further past, and not really against the GSL itself. Further past matters here because Naniwa isn't being banned from GSL forever, but rather, merely not being seeded into Code S this season.
On December 15 2011 03:52 Jampackedeon wrote: This whole thing is way out of proportion, I hope Mr. Chae releases a statement to clear things up. I think they were in their rights to punish Naniwa, but it seems to me that he didn't really violate anything in terms of my personal viewing expectations.
I don't want this whole Korean vs. Foreigner expectations thing to be such a big deal, because I really love the direction GOM has taken their format and think that the more top level (cough STEPHANO) foreigners that get to go into that talent pool the better we will all be for it.
I imagine Stephano was offered a spot before Sen, maybe even before Idra, and rejected it.
On December 15 2011 03:07 PraetorianX wrote: Did someone tell them Johan Lucchesi actually is Naniwa?
I mean, he is who he is. Maybe GomTV should be respectful of that instead of trying to mold him into their personally preferred type of pro-gamer persona. I'm not seeing other tournaments having this problem.
He needs to respect the people around him while he's working, is it really that much to ask?
On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote: Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer
There was no contractual agreement. MLG/GSL did not extend to 2012 >.< Naniwa did not have a spot, was only a candidate due to his performance. But this is not the purpose of this thread.
In that case they forgot to tell both MLG and the rest of the world. Check out this guys compilation of MLG-quotes saying Naniwa won a code S-seed:
On December 15 2011 03:51 labbe wrote: They are revoking Naniwa's invites on arguments based on morality and honor, and at the same time giving a seed to Idra, a player that's very famous for insulting his opponents when he loses. Does anyone else think this is a bit wierd?
No I don't. IdrA has played in Korea for SC1. IdrA has played in Korea in the GSL for SC2. He knows the culture and knows how to respect it. IdrA, while bad manner online, is never BM in the GSL. Why? Because it is NOT A GAME in Korea. It is a professional sport and IdrA is smart enough to know you don't act like a kid when people expect you to be a grown man.
On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote: Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer
there is no agreement about 2012 yet. Providence was not a normal MLG Pro Circuit, it did not have GSL invites (aside from the players who qualified through their previous results) at a seeded position, therefor it does not necessarily convey special rewards (as in slots or seeds) for any future GSLs.
It might if MLG and GSL decided to do so, or it might not, depending on the plans of those two seperate buisnesses. Thats between them, and a matter yet to be negotiated/discussed.
For the first GSL of 2012 they obviously planned to change their system (no surprise there) and wanted to fill the open slots with invites. We don't know yet if they will make a new exchange program or not, frankly we don't know anything about the MLG 2012 circuit yet.
Naniwa had a fantastic result at Providence, but from a legal standpoint he did not earn a GSL seed, because it was the national finals, not a normal pro circuit event. Furthermore Gom almost certainly has the right to deny a player his "earned" seed, if they feel the need to punish him for something. Whether that is a good decision or not, is another debate, but they certainly have the right as a tournament organiser. Imagine for example that Rain would have won the MLG in July (Anaheim i think). He was still banned from GSL August and certainly would not have gotten the slot, even if he supposedly "earned" it at MLG.
Ps: I agree that Gom should have prepared and posted a written press statement (in Korean or english, i don't care) in addition to announcing something on stream. Verbal misscommunications happen easily, if something is written down properly it is much harder to twist around.
On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote: Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer
There was no contractual agreement. MLG/GSL did not extend to 2012 >.< Naniwa did not have a spot, was only a candidate due to his performance. But this is not the purpose of this thread.
In that case they forgot to tell both MLG and the rest of the world. Check out this guys compilation of MLG-quotes saying Naniwa won a code S-seed:
I'm worried about the implications of a player being denied a seed because they used a strategy that the tournament staff didn't like. Sure, a probe pull at the start of the game is unlikely to win, particularly at the pro level, but it's not the same as just leaving the game. This ethereal, "the player didn't try hard enough," makes me twitchy, because it is a completely subjective measurement.
On December 15 2011 03:13 Jhax[IRE] wrote: Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum.
The difference is if you are a pro gamer, you still want to play. And if you are great pro gamer, you still want to win, despite the result would mean shit.
Maybe but you dont se many places where you are forced to play meaningless games just after you lost 3 close games and are out of the tournament.
I really dislike that they're co-opting 'progamer' to mean the thing which helps the business side of things out (i.e. appeasing the fans and acting in a pre-approved manner), over meaning players who play the game at its highest competitive level, for the competition itself, using prize money to support that dedication. It's irritating because it can easily turn into a slippery slope where we end up with the kind of stilted interviews and lack of personality of BW events for fear of upsetting the infrastructure that supports them. The globalisation of starcraft has been fantastic for distributing the power of the tournament organisers to control things for ulterior motives that benefit them over the players, but the GSL having the best players means it has the most leverage to do things that satisfy their agenda, whether it's good for the players or not.
The weird way people put korean culture on a pedastal is really depressing too, where they think because it's korean they have a right to do things that negatively impact the scene as a whole. In general this whole thing has been one of the most depressing series of events to read on TL and honestly makes me more apathetic about people in general than ever. The amount of bizarre justifications ranging from conservative talking points that make no sense, to pro korean xenophobia, to 'for the greater esports good', to basing arguments off extrapolated opinions with little basis in fact. There's barely been 1 in 10 posts that hasn't included something that isn't a horrible abortion of logic and language.
On December 15 2011 03:53 diophan wrote: I'm very happy that GOM's response was infinitely more measured than what was claimed. Also whoever said he was called a money grubbing hunter or whatever should be ashamed for tarnishing GOM's reputation.
Once again I am deeply sorry about posting something from non-credible source.. I am trying to communicate with Mr.CHAE also to apologize in person.. I love e-sports and my aim was sole to create a faster communication line between two communities which I have failed at. I am truly sorry.
On December 15 2011 03:51 labbe wrote: They are revoking Naniwa's invites on arguments based on morality and honor, and at the same time giving a seed to Idra, a player that's very famous for insulting his opponents when he loses. Does anyone else think this is a bit wierd?
Not really.
They revoked (or just didn't give to begin with) Naniwa's seed based upon one specific instance of poor conduct that the GSL believed was disresectful to their league, their sponsors, and their fans.
Further, Idra's BM is much further past, and not really against the GSL itself. Further past matters here because Naniwa isn't being banned from GSL forever, but rather, merely not being seeded into Code S this season.
Less then 3 months ago Idra sayd fuck you to MaNa over a lost game.
Pro-gaming is professional gaming. Being a professional means making money. Sure, adding to the hype and getting the crowd fired up can be part of the job too, but first and foremost, pro-gaming is a job.
Pro-gamers need to earn a living for e-sports to be sustainable. Otherwise, this cute vision of "pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that" is too idealistic and not realistic.
If they wanted someone who was super-serious about winning the tournament, they were right to invite Naniwa. If they cared about exciting the audience and hyping up the community, then they shouldn't have chosen to invite a player with a notoriously lackluster personality.
On December 15 2011 03:07 PraetorianX wrote: Did someone tell them Johan Lucchesi actually is Naniwa?
I mean, he is who he is. Maybe GomTV should be respectful of that instead of trying to mold him into their personally preferred type of pro-gamer persona. I'm not seeing other tournaments having this problem.
This isn't exactly the first time tournaments have had a difference of interests with Naniwa.
Disclaimer: Past performance is not indicative of future results
On December 15 2011 03:51 labbe wrote: They are revoking Naniwa's invites on arguments based on morality and honor, and at the same time giving a seed to Idra, a player that's very famous for insulting his opponents when he loses. Does anyone else think this is a bit wierd?
Has Idra disgustingly BM'ed a player and the audience/viewers while televised in Korea for the world to see? He may be BM as hell behind the scenes but at least the guy knows respect and when to give it.
I'm glad it got cleared up, the original quote made Mr. Chae look terrible.
On December 15 2011 03:30 Azzur wrote: But I think in the end of the day, the facts are pretty clear, no matter the wording of what was said: - Naniwa was originally going to be one of the Code S seeds, but this privilege has now been taken back.
An invitation is not a privilege. It can be revoked, but ultimately you need to justify it and you will be judged on the quality of the justification.
On December 15 2011 03:51 labbe wrote: They are revoking Naniwa's invites on arguments based on morality and honor, and at the same time giving a seed to Idra, a player that's very famous for insulting his opponents when he loses. Does anyone else think this is a bit wierd?
Not really.
They revoked (or just didn't give to begin with) Naniwa's seed based upon one specific instance of poor conduct that the GSL believed was disresectful to their league, their sponsors, and their fans.
Further, Idra's BM is much further past, and not really against the GSL itself. Further past matters here because Naniwa isn't being banned from GSL forever, but rather, merely not being seeded into Code S this season.
Less then 3 months ago Idra sayd fuck you to MaNa over a lost game.
Not in a gsl league. Gom is consistent in not caring about Naniwa or Idra's conduct outside of GSL or in their past.
Ok that quote makes me feel so much more happy about GOMs decision. Thanks for misinformation other post GOM have made the perfect decision if that is the case having the glory of the game rather than the money be the factor.
If I was a pro I would want to win tournaments and stand there with the trophy in hand and love that moment. Not think OMG OMG OMG I CAN GET A NEW CAR! The reason to become a pro is the love for the game and giving yourself to it. People that are in it to make money dont deserve to have fans. We are there cheering them on in the packed shows for the glory of wining MLG/GSL/Dreamhack ect Not to see who will win that big prize pool.
The quote GOM made about giving the spot to Naniwa not Johan Lucchesi gives me faith in this decision
On December 15 2011 03:56 OldManSenex wrote: I'm worried about the implications of a player being denied a seed because they used a strategy that the tournament staff didn't like. Sure, a probe pull at the start of the game is unlikely to win, particularly at the pro level, but it's not the same as just leaving the game. This ethereal, "the player didn't try hard enough," makes me twitchy, because it is a completely subjective measurement.
It is not subjective if you actually watched the game, where he had one hand on the mouse and the other on his chin, looking bored as hell as he right-clicked all his probes to nestea's base.
On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote: Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer
There was no contractual agreement. MLG/GSL did not extend to 2012 >.< Naniwa did not have a spot, was only a candidate due to his performance. But this is not the purpose of this thread.
In that case they forgot to tell both MLG and the rest of the world. Check out this guys compilation of MLG-quotes saying Naniwa won a code S-seed:
This is evidence (albeit jenky evidence) that there was, indeed, a contractual obligation between MLG, GSL, and NaNiWa that gave NaNi a Code S spot. Unless their was an all-encompasing any-reason-at-all exit clause in the contract, there must be a specific rule that NaNiWa has allegedly broken. He boxed 6 workers and a-moved to NesTea's base.I don't understand what the problem with that is.
Okay, so let's say that I actually buy that this is NOT actually a "punishment" (I don't btw. Nothing has changed, they are just sugarcoating their punishment with pretty words to make it look less bad on them). There is still some incredible double standards going on here. They are basically saying they are not inviting Naniwa based upon him not respecting the sanctity of competition. Yet at the same time they are inviting players directly into Code S, with very arbitrary reasoning, basically making the seeds to Code S a giant popularity contest, and that totally goes against the spirit of the competition.
On December 15 2011 03:54 mbr2321 wrote: GOM has still not owned up to the their terrible tournament format. I don't care that NaNiWa was take out of Code S because of his manners, or his emotions, or whatever. I'm still waiting for GOMtv to say that they shouldn't have put those two players in a situation where their match would be utterly meaningless. It's absolutely abysmal tournament structure.
Blaming the format is a cop-out. Nestea was put in the same situation and didn't do it. Yes the format didn't help matters as the game was meaningless, but a person can still use his brain and make intelligent decisions. If your character is strong enough, then the format is irrelevant to actions you choose to take.
On December 15 2011 03:53 Delicious Insanity wrote: I'm repeating myself, but whatever.
If you have a global tournament, try and find a middle road. Don't enforce the punishment that's normal for 1 of the cultures involved.
Please, in what country would this kind of behavior ever be acceptable? In what workplace would you find someone bitching about a rule not existing about doing "random disrespectful thing".
This is not about culture, this is about professionalism and taking your job seriously. MLG should've punished Naniwa aswell because he ridiculed them. I don't it's too much to ask to be manner and nice to the people around you while you're at work.
On December 15 2011 03:56 OldManSenex wrote: I'm worried about the implications of a player being denied a seed because they used a strategy that the tournament staff didn't like. Sure, a probe pull at the start of the game is unlikely to win, particularly at the pro level, but it's not the same as just leaving the game. This ethereal, "the player didn't try hard enough," makes me twitchy, because it is a completely subjective measurement.
It is not subjective if you actually watched the game, where he had one hand on the mouse and the other on his chin, looking bored as hell as he right-clicked all his probes to nestea's base.
Pretty much, its not like the line is that thinly veiled. You can tell if someone is throwing or not easily
The real issue is that a big part of the community was under the impression that Naniwa was guarenteed a spot in code S. Not that he was being considered for a spot.
The statement is saying that the Code S spot was given to the professional gamer NaNiWa who has demonstrated that he was a skillful and professional player up until the Blizzard Cup match with NesTea, not to Johan Lucchesi the skillful gamer who has apparently acted unprofessionally by forfeiting the game in a crude manner.
For those who can't read between the lines, it implies that GSL is disappointed with Naniwa's behavior the other day and until he meets their standard as a professional gamer, they will not seed him into code S
On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote: Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer
There was no contractual agreement. MLG/GSL did not extend to 2012 >.< Naniwa did not have a spot, was only a candidate due to his performance. But this is not the purpose of this thread.
In that case they forgot to tell both MLG and the rest of the world. Check out this guys compilation of MLG-quotes saying Naniwa won a code S-seed:
At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
from that line, it is pretty clear that a Code S should be awarded to Naniwa. Mr.Chae, are you going to honor what you/ GomTV promised?
On December 15 2011 03:54 mbr2321 wrote: GOM has still not owned up to the their terrible tournament format. I don't care that NaNiWa was take out of Code S because of his manners, or his emotions, or whatever. I'm still waiting for GOMtv to say that they shouldn't have put those two players in a situation where their match would be utterly meaningless. It's absolutely abysmal tournament structure.
It's not their fault that Naniwa and Nestea sucked on that particular day.
Can't you see why they put their match there? They knew going in it was going to be the most hyped match and the one everyone wanted to see. In fact there were dozens of posts from people in the thread at the time saying things like 'I stayed up for this <insert curseword>'.
It turned out to be a poor decision, but they didn't count on Naniwa misbehaving. Any other combination of players would have produced a better response.
On December 15 2011 03:51 labbe wrote: They are revoking Naniwa's invites on arguments based on morality and honor, and at the same time giving a seed to Idra, a player that's very famous for insulting his opponents when he loses. Does anyone else think this is a bit wierd?
Not really.
They revoked (or just didn't give to begin with) Naniwa's seed based upon one specific instance of poor conduct that the GSL believed was disresectful to their league, their sponsors, and their fans.
Further, Idra's BM is much further past, and not really against the GSL itself. Further past matters here because Naniwa isn't being banned from GSL forever, but rather, merely not being seeded into Code S this season.
Less then 3 months ago Idra sayd fuck you to MaNa over a lost game.
Idra said fuck you to 90% of the Korean Ladder, what's your point?
On December 15 2011 03:51 labbe wrote: They are revoking Naniwa's invites on arguments based on morality and honor, and at the same time giving a seed to Idra, a player that's very famous for insulting his opponents when he loses. Does anyone else think this is a bit wierd?
Not really.
They revoked (or just didn't give to begin with) Naniwa's seed based upon one specific instance of poor conduct that the GSL believed was disresectful to their league, their sponsors, and their fans.
Further, Idra's BM is much further past, and not really against the GSL itself. Further past matters here because Naniwa isn't being banned from GSL forever, but rather, merely not being seeded into Code S this season.
Less then 3 months ago Idra sayd fuck you to MaNa over a lost game.
I am unsure how that disrespects GSL.
Further 3 months ago would be over a GSL season ago. In 3 months, Naniwa will not be being punished by the GSL in any way, and he will have every opportunity to compete in the GSL which begins in three months.
On December 15 2011 03:59 labbe wrote: Okay, so let's say that I actually buy that this is NOT actually a "punishment". There is still some incredible double standards going on here. They are basically saying they are not inviting Naniwa based upon him not respecting the sanctity of competition. Yet at the same time they are inviting players directly into Code S, with very arbitrary reasoning, basically making the seeds to Code S a giant popularity contest, and that totally goes against the spirit of the competition.
I can't really make sense of this.
For foreigner's participation. It is not like this is a new thing that was just introduced the night Naniwa was banned. Its been going on for forever and no need to bring it up in this thread.
On December 15 2011 03:04 NHY wrote: There is a thread with similar name with incorrect information and it is causing people to believe in false information. But I was told to piss off by OP of that thread so there is no chance he'll change what he wrote now. So, here it goes.
프로게이머라는 직업이 사실은 이겨서 상금을 타가서 그걸로 업을 삼는다고 프로게이머라고 생각하지 않아요 프로게이머라는 직업은 승부를 가리는 것들을 시청자분들에게 보여주고 그것들을 시청자 분들이 열광하고 그것을 통해서 승부를 가리는 것을 직업으로 삼는 선수들을 프로게이머라고 저희가 생각을하고 있기 때문에 저희가 시드를 줬던것은 퀀틱 게이밍의 프로토스 프로게이머 나니와 선수였지 스웨덴에서 게임을 잘하는 청년 요한 루세시는 아니였습니다.
"We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. We think that pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that. We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not to Johan Lucchesi from Sweden, who plays the game well."
There was NO mention of the conduct rule, it being a "punishment", or that he is "an amateur prize money hunter."
Please limit the discussion in this thread to what was said during today's Blizzard cup Korean stream and discuss the issue of NaNiwa & Code S seed in 100 other threads.
We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. So they don't believe in the common definition of a progamer. Which is basicly your getting enough money from gaming to life from that. Atleast he was that "professional" and didn't call him "an amateur prize money hunter." But still if this is what he has said, I am pretty curious why they invited Idra, who didn't even qualify. Wasn't Idras reasoning for his withdrawal of the IPL3 groupstage, that the games were meaningless and he wasn't in the shape to bring his a-game? I hope for idra no one tells Mr.Chae about this stuff.
On December 15 2011 03:13 Jhax[IRE] wrote: Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum.
Really? That's a supremely stark and ignoble outlook on life as a whole. People, unanimously, are forced to do things they don't want to do on a daily basis and I would say, as a general statement, do more than the bare minimum because they understand the importance of it.
It's this mentality that really bothers me, he's a professional. His job is to be above the 99% of other gamers, to never just settle for the bare minimum (especially given his own goals), and to try his hardest at every given opportunity no matter how hopeless it may seem or how worthless it may be. How can one even believe Naniwa when he says "I want to be the best" when he can hardly hold himself to those standards? Throwing a game isn't something someone who wants to be the best does--the rationalization that the match doesn't matter says that the tournament is more important to Naniwa than how good he as a player is.
I've seen many people writing, "But they do it in other sports, why is it ok there?" It's not ok, it's never ok, the fact people don't give a shit isn't ok. I read these tournament reports of Magic the Gathering, people splitting prize pools or drawing into the top 8 because the game doesn't matter, or sports teams not trying their best because the games don't matter. They do matter, they all matter, but when you put winning above being the best, I guess you lose sight of that somewhere.
On December 15 2011 03:53 Delicious Insanity wrote: I'm repeating myself, but whatever.
If you have a global tournament, try and find a middle road. Don't enforce the punishment that's normal for 1 of the cultures involved.
Please, in what country would this kind of behavior ever be acceptable? In what workplace would you find someone bitching about a rule not existing about doing "random disrespectful thing".
This is not about culture, this is about professionalism and taking your job seriously. MLG should've punished Naniwa aswell because he ridiculed them. I don't it's too much to ask to be manner and nice to the people around you while you're at work.
On December 15 2011 03:54 mbr2321 wrote: GOM has still not owned up to the their terrible tournament format. I don't care that NaNiWa was take out of Code S because of his manners, or his emotions, or whatever. I'm still waiting for GOMtv to say that they shouldn't have put those two players in a situation where their match would be utterly meaningless. It's absolutely abysmal tournament structure.
Blaming the format is a cop-out. Nestea was put in the same situation and didn't do it. Yes the format didn't help matters as the game was meaningless, but a person can still use his brain and make intelligent decisions. If your character is strong enough, then the format is irrelevant to actions you choose to take.
I was under the impression that it was made round robin for the fans, since this is an end of the year, invite everyone who does well, sort of a thing. That way we get to see a bunch of matches by some of the best players in the world.
I, of course, cannot read the mind of whoever made the structure.
On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote: Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer
There was no contractual agreement. MLG/GSL did not extend to 2012 >.< Naniwa did not have a spot, was only a candidate due to his performance. But this is not the purpose of this thread.
In that case they forgot to tell both MLG and the rest of the world. Check out this guys compilation of MLG-quotes saying Naniwa won a code S-seed:
On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote: Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer
There was no contractual agreement. MLG/GSL did not extend to 2012 >.< Naniwa did not have a spot, was only a candidate due to his performance. But this is not the purpose of this thread.
In that case they forgot to tell both MLG and the rest of the world. Check out this guys compilation of MLG-quotes saying Naniwa won a code S-seed:
At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
from that line, it is pretty clear that a Code S should be awarded to Naniwa. Mr.Chae, are you going to honor what you/ GomTV promised?
Overturned due to blatent unprofessionalism. Awarded to players more deserving of being named 'CODE S'
the statement is vague and doesn't exactly say anything informative. in fact, it sounds silly from a realistic point of view ... basically you need to have certain reasons for winning (pleasing the fans) and that money shouldn't be a part of it. they are trying to separate some noble idea of "striving for victory" versus playing for money when in reality it's always a mix of the two.
i think we can all agree it would be nice if they released something saying more ...
I must admit my initial reaction upon hearing about this was: - Sigh, what did Naniwa do this time?
But after reading what actually transpired I think GOM overreacted.
Compare this to the Champions League soccer group game between Dinamo Zagreb vs Lyon. Zagreb had nothing to play for but Lyon did. Lyon won 7 - 1 and advanced from the group. Did Zagreb get thrown out of next CL-season? No, even though that match actually mattered.
I certainly won't subscribe to GSL after something like this happens.
On December 15 2011 03:56 OldManSenex wrote: I'm worried about the implications of a player being denied a seed because they used a strategy that the tournament staff didn't like. Sure, a probe pull at the start of the game is unlikely to win, particularly at the pro level, but it's not the same as just leaving the game. This ethereal, "the player didn't try hard enough," makes me twitchy, because it is a completely subjective measurement.
When you match-fix, you get punished for it. Korea takes it seriously, especially since sAviOr and company had their scandal. This isn't a matter of a strategy, this is a matter of integrity.
Oh and yes throwing a match is match-fixing, it falls under match-fixing. Also doesn't mean I'm putting Naniwa on sAviOr level.
On December 15 2011 03:53 Delicious Insanity wrote: I'm repeating myself, but whatever.
If you have a global tournament, try and find a middle road. Don't enforce the punishment that's normal for 1 of the cultures involved.
Please, in what country would this kind of behavior ever be acceptable? In what workplace would you find someone bitching about a rule not existing about doing "random disrespectful thing".
This is not about culture, this is about professionalism and taking your job seriously. MLG should've punished Naniwa aswell because he ridiculed them. I don't it's too much to ask to be manner and nice to the people around you while you're at work.
Ridicule him for his opinion? What a joke.
He said it in front of many many viewers. Completely unprofessional. Conforming to the social norm is a necessity in professional situations.
On December 15 2011 03:54 mbr2321 wrote: GOM has still not owned up to the their terrible tournament format. I don't care that NaNiWa was take out of Code S because of his manners, or his emotions, or whatever. I'm still waiting for GOMtv to say that they shouldn't have put those two players in a situation where their match would be utterly meaningless. It's absolutely abysmal tournament structure.
Blaming the format is a cop-out. Nestea was put in the same situation and didn't do it. Yes the format didn't help matters as the game was meaningless, but a person can still use his brain and make intelligent decisions. If your character is strong enough, then the format is irrelevant to actions you choose to take.
The thing is I am completely ambivalent with regards to NaNiWa being punished. I just want this whole situation to be fair. It is not fair that GOM unilaterally decides to punish NaNiWa without accepting any responsibility for their horrific tournament structure.
On December 15 2011 03:51 labbe wrote: They are revoking Naniwa's invites on arguments based on morality and honor, and at the same time giving a seed to Idra, a player that's very famous for insulting his opponents when he loses. Does anyone else think this is a bit wierd?
Has Idra disgustingly BM'ed a player and the audience/viewers while televised in Korea for the world to see? He may be BM as hell behind the scenes but at least the guy knows respect and when to give it.
Maybe it is cultural but respect means something very different to me. What Idra does is worse than showing his lack of respect in public. Except I don't judge him because he does it to protect his job not because he's a hypocrite.
On December 15 2011 03:59 labbe wrote: Okay, so let's say that I actually buy that this is NOT actually a "punishment". There is still some incredible double standards going on here. They are basically saying they are not inviting Naniwa based upon him not respecting the sanctity of competition. Yet at the same time they are inviting players directly into Code S, with very arbitrary reasoning, basically making the seeds to Code S a giant popularity contest, and that totally goes against the spirit of the competition.
I can't really make sense of this.
Well how do you gain that popularity? By doing well at tournaments, is it really that arbitrary of a reason?
On December 15 2011 04:02 bLooD. wrote: GOM´s statements are such jokes.... no 1 would even care if it happened at any other events.
Uhhhh, don't you remember that Naniwa was banned from IEM and EPS? Tournaments outside of korea ARE taking action.
On December 15 2011 04:02 HandleTaken wrote: I must admit my initial reaction upon hearing about this was: - Sigh, what did Naniwa do this time?
But after reading what actually transpired I think GOM overreacted.
Compare this to the Champions League soccer group game between Dinamo Zagreb vs Lyon. Zagreb had nothing to play for but Lyon did. Lyon won 7 - 1 and advanced from the group. Did Zagreb get thrown out of next CL-season? No, even though that match actually mattered.
I certainly won't subscribe to GSL after something like this happens.
They still scored a goal. That's more than what Naniwa did. He basically walked off the field when the whistle blew.
On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote: Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer
There was no contractual agreement. MLG/GSL did not extend to 2012 >.< Naniwa did not have a spot, was only a candidate due to his performance. But this is not the purpose of this thread.
In that case they forgot to tell both MLG and the rest of the world. Check out this guys compilation of MLG-quotes saying Naniwa won a code S-seed:
At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
from that line, it is pretty clear that a Code S should be awarded to Naniwa. Mr.Chae, are you going to honor what you/ GomTV promised?
Overturned due to blatent unprofessionalism. Awarded to players more deserving of being named 'CODE S'
On December 15 2011 03:51 labbe wrote: They are revoking Naniwa's invites on arguments based on morality and honor, and at the same time giving a seed to Idra, a player that's very famous for insulting his opponents when he loses. Does anyone else think this is a bit wierd?
Not really.
They revoked (or just didn't give to begin with) Naniwa's seed based upon one specific instance of poor conduct that the GSL believed was disresectful to their league, their sponsors, and their fans.
Further, Idra's BM is much further past, and not really against the GSL itself. Further past matters here because Naniwa isn't being banned from GSL forever, but rather, merely not being seeded into Code S this season.
Less then 3 months ago Idra sayd fuck you to MaNa over a lost game.
I am unsure how that disrespects GSL.
Further 3 months ago would be over a GSL season ago. In 3 months, Naniwa will not be being punished by the GSL in any way, and he will have every opportunity to compete in the GSL which begins in three months.
I don't believe Idra ever insulted a player while he was competing in the GSL. Have I misremembered? because if he had, I'm willing to bet they'd kick him from Code S and ban him.
On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote: Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer
There was no contractual agreement. MLG/GSL did not extend to 2012 >.< Naniwa did not have a spot, was only a candidate due to his performance. But this is not the purpose of this thread.
In that case they forgot to tell both MLG and the rest of the world. Check out this guys compilation of MLG-quotes saying Naniwa won a code S-seed:
At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
from that line, it is pretty clear that a Code S should be awarded to Naniwa. Mr.Chae, are you going to honor what you/ GomTV promised?
This line of argument seems unreasonable to me. It is not that GOM is not honoring that promise, it is that Naniwa lost his spot due to outside actions.
I don't think you can reasonably argue that players should not be able to lose spots due to other actions. For example, if a player won MLG, but during the month before GSL, was caught cheating and fixing games for profit in NASL, Dreamhack, ladder, AND IEM-- they would surely lose their GSL Code S spot, and no one would complain.
Thus, this established that was all agree that at least *some actions* are sufficient to cause a player to lose a Code S spot, and that this is NOT an example of GOM not honoring their promise.
Rather, the argument here is really over whether Naniwa's actions were sufficient to justify the punishment that was given, and NOT whether GSL is honoring their promise re: MLG.
On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote: Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer
There was no contractual agreement. MLG/GSL did not extend to 2012 >.< Naniwa did not have a spot, was only a candidate due to his performance. But this is not the purpose of this thread.
In that case they forgot to tell both MLG and the rest of the world. Check out this guys compilation of MLG-quotes saying Naniwa won a code S-seed:
At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
from that line, it is pretty clear that a Code S should be awarded to Naniwa. Mr.Chae, are you going to honor what you/ GomTV promised?
Overturned due to blatent unprofessionalism. Awarded to players more deserving of being named 'CODE S'
you overturn a ruling, not an obligation
pacta sunt servanda
There was no obligation if you actually read the new updates No deal in 2012. Misunderstanding between MLG and GOM
On December 15 2011 03:23 WigglingSquid wrote: This seems much better and more likely than what was reported in the first thread; it also shows a certain degree of mercy. Edit: why are so many people having a hard time figuring out what he meant? English 101, anyone? ._.
Because it appears that he is treating naniwa and Johan as two entities,
What he's saying is they Invited a professional, and were given an amateur so they are pulling the seed? That's the correct interpretation?
Yes the correct interpretation is that they are associating more than skill to the definition of "professional gamer". I think this statement (assuming this is the final, correct translation) is absolutely brilliant and really shows their position well. Being a professional gamer is about so much more than winning games, and you don't have to be one to realize that.
On December 15 2011 03:04 NHY wrote: There is a thread with similar name with incorrect information and it is causing people to believe in false information. But I was told to piss off by OP of that thread so there is no chance he'll change what he wrote now. So, here it goes.
First of all, what Mr. Chae actually said:
프로게이머라는 직업이 사실은 이겨서 상금을 타가서 그걸로 업을 삼는다고 프로게이머라고 생각하지 않아요 프로게이머라는 직업은 승부를 가리는 것들을 시청자분들에게 보여주고 그것들을 시청자 분들이 열광하고 그것을 통해서 승부를 가리는 것을 직업으로 삼는 선수들을 프로게이머라고 저희가 생각을하고 있기 때문에 저희가 시드를 줬던것은 퀀틱 게이밍의 프로토스 프로게이머 나니와 선수였지 스웨덴에서 게임을 잘하는 청년 요한 루세시는 아니였습니다.
"We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. We think that pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that. We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not to Johan Lucchesi from Sweden, who plays the game well."
There was NO mention of the conduct rule, it being a "punishment", or that he is "an amateur prize money hunter."
Please limit the discussion in this thread to what was said during today's Blizzard cup Korean stream and discuss the issue of NaNiwa & Code S seed in 100 other threads.
We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. So they don't believe in the common definition of a progamer. Which is basicly your getting enough money from gaming to life from that. Atleast he was that "professional" and didn't call him "an amateur prize money hunter." But still if this is what he has said, I am pretty curious why they invited Idra, who didn't even qualify. Wasn't Idras reasoning for his withdrawal of the IPL3 groupstage, that the games were meaningless and he wasn't in the shape to bring his a-game? I hope for idra no one tells Mr.Chae about this stuff.
His main reason for withdrawal was probably exhaustion.
Please limit the discussion in this thread to what was said during today's Blizzard cup Korean stream and discuss the issue of NaNiwa & Code S seed in 100 other threads.
I understand you are all upset, but let's try to stay on topic.
Does anyone have a link to the stream so that we can get independent confirmation on the transcript and translation?
On December 15 2011 03:13 Jhax[IRE] wrote: Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum.
Really? That's a supremely stark and ignoble outlook on life as a whole. People, unanimously, are forced to do things they don't want to do on a daily basis and I would say, as a general statement, do more than the bare minimum because they understand the importance of it.
It's this mentality that really bothers me, he's a professional. His job is to be above the 99% of other gamers, to never just settle for the bare minimum (especially given his own goals), and to try his hardest at every given opportunity no matter how hopeless it may seem or how worthless it may be. How can one even believe Naniwa when he says "I want to be the best" when he can hardly hold himself to those standards? Throwing a game isn't something someone who wants to be the best does--the rationalization that the match doesn't matter says that the tournament is more important to Naniwa than how good he as a player is.
I've seen many people writing, "But they do it in other sports, why is it ok there?" It's not ok, it's never ok, the fact people don't give a shit isn't ok. I read these tournament reports of Magic the Gathering, people splitting prize pools or drawing into the top 8 because the game doesn't matter, or sports teams not trying their best because they games don't matter. They do matter, they all matter, but when you put winning above being the best, I guess you lose sight of that somewhere.
He can still strive to be the best whilst not playing Nestea ya know. Just because he didn't want to feel stressed or continue on for a match that shouldn't have even taken place (wtf? No incentive match?) doesn't mean his statement of wanting to be the best is unbelievable. On the contrary, because the match wasn't that important and he didn't take it seriously, you can count on him taking the ones that matter more way more seriously.
GOMTV trolling hard to invite Idra over Naniwa based on professionalism...
They must have a different definition of "professional" in Korea, maybe we need a better translation? Money is what distinguishes amateurs and professionals; Maybe a loss in foreign viewership will illustrate this.
On December 15 2011 03:53 Delicious Insanity wrote: I'm repeating myself, but whatever.
If you have a global tournament, try and find a middle road. Don't enforce the punishment that's normal for 1 of the cultures involved.
Please, in what country would this kind of behavior ever be acceptable? In what workplace would you find someone bitching about a rule not existing about doing "random disrespectful thing".
This is not about culture, this is about professionalism and taking your job seriously. MLG should've punished Naniwa aswell because he ridiculed them. I don't it's too much to ask to be manner and nice to the people around you while you're at work.
Ridicule him for his opinion? What a joke.
Yeah, whoever got ridiculed for an opinion on the internet?
On December 15 2011 03:53 Delicious Insanity wrote: I'm repeating myself, but whatever.
If you have a global tournament, try and find a middle road. Don't enforce the punishment that's normal for 1 of the cultures involved.
Please, in what country would this kind of behavior ever be acceptable? In what workplace would you find someone bitching about a rule not existing about doing "random disrespectful thing".
This is not about culture, this is about professionalism and taking your job seriously. MLG should've punished Naniwa aswell because he ridiculed them. I don't it's too much to ask to be manner and nice to the people around you while you're at work.
I disagree. I think the recently presented definition of pro gamer is quite culturally influenced. I also think that the definition of 'random disrespectful thing' changes dramatically in various cultural settings. Because there is a question of what is disrespectful and specifically the magnitude of that disrespect, there need to be extremely clear lines drawn about what is and what is not acceptable. I think that this will come with some problems, but I would much rather have a player removed from a tournament because they had accumulated too many penalty points like in ESL than have a player lose his or her seed for ambiguous reasons.
Certainly there will always be new problems, but the way to address each newly discovered 'disrespectful thing' is to mention it once and create a rule. In a global league, we must consider global attitudes.
On December 15 2011 03:47 KingVietKong wrote: I can see why this happened and basically get behind it.... EXCEPT
Nestea did this at the last game of Blizzcon. The only difference is it took (56?) or so minutes, was against a teammate, and had an actual consequence. Yet no peep from any of these pro-gaming philosophers. Naniwa deserved some punishment, be it the boot or a fine of some kind, but every time someone at GOM or the head coach of IM (especially him, god wish he didn't have a twitter) talks about pro gamer ideals as the basis for this punishment, I'm reminded of that travesty of a game.
I'm glad there's rules. I just wish they were applied uniformly (and if this is an ideological thing then yes, the Blizzcon games fall under jurisdiction as far as I'm concerned).
On December 15 2011 03:56 OldManSenex wrote: I'm worried about the implications of a player being denied a seed because they used a strategy that the tournament staff didn't like. Sure, a probe pull at the start of the game is unlikely to win, particularly at the pro level, but it's not the same as just leaving the game. This ethereal, "the player didn't try hard enough," makes me twitchy, because it is a completely subjective measurement.
That is not a strategy. Stop trying to veil what NaNiwa did as some form of strategy that was designed to have any success. He himself has said that he didn't try. This has nothing to do with GOM not liking his strategy. It has everything to do with them not liking his persona and attitude.
On December 15 2011 03:59 labbe wrote: Okay, so let's say that I actually buy that this is NOT actually a "punishment". There is still some incredible double standards going on here. They are basically saying they are not inviting Naniwa based upon him not respecting the sanctity of competition. Yet at the same time they are inviting players directly into Code S, with very arbitrary reasoning, basically making the seeds to Code S a giant popularity contest, and that totally goes against the spirit of the competition.
I can't really make sense of this.
Well how do you gain that popularity? By doing well at tournaments, is it really that arbitrary of a reason?
On December 15 2011 03:53 Delicious Insanity wrote: I'm repeating myself, but whatever.
If you have a global tournament, try and find a middle road. Don't enforce the punishment that's normal for 1 of the cultures involved.
Please, in what country would this kind of behavior ever be acceptable? In what workplace would you find someone bitching about a rule not existing about doing "random disrespectful thing".
This is not about culture, this is about professionalism and taking your job seriously. MLG should've punished Naniwa aswell because he ridiculed them. I don't it's too much to ask to be manner and nice to the people around you while you're at work.
I am talking about the punishment, because I feel it's to harsh. He should be penalized in one way or the other, but I feel that taking away his code s seed is to harsh.
On December 15 2011 04:02 HandleTaken wrote: I must admit my initial reaction upon hearing about this was: - Sigh, what did Naniwa do this time?
But after reading what actually transpired I think GOM overreacted.
Compare this to the Champions League soccer group game between Dinamo Zagreb vs Lyon. Zagreb had nothing to play for but Lyon did. Lyon won 7 - 1 and advanced from the group. Did Zagreb get thrown out of next CL-season? No, even though that match actually mattered.
I certainly won't subscribe to GSL after something like this happens.
Did Zagreb field reserves and not try to defend? Did Lyon just outclass them? If Lyon puts 3 goals past you then you tilt that's understandable.
On December 15 2011 03:59 Mystgun wrote: The statement is saying that the Code S spot was given to the professional gamer NaNiWa who has demonstrated that he was a skillful and professional player up until the Blizzard Cup match with NesTea, not to Johan Lucchesi the skillful gamer who has apparently acted unprofessionally by forfeiting the game in a crude manner.
For those who can't read between the lines, it implies that GSL is disappointed with Naniwa's behavior the other day and until he meets their standard as a professional gamer, they will not seed him into code S
This x100. Skill =/= Professional. Combatex is quite skillful but do we call him a professional? He makes money from the game through streams, lessons and such so he has the qualifications of a professional right?
On December 15 2011 04:02 bLooD. wrote: GOM´s statements are such jokes.... no 1 would even care if it happened at any other event.
Upholding a professional shouldnt be frown upon. Upholding your cultural values should be respected as well, especially when it is in your own country.
On December 15 2011 04:01 4of8 wrote: We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. So they don't believe in the common definition of a progamer. Which is basicly your getting enough money from gaming to life from that. Atleast he was that "professional" and didn't call him "an amateur prize money hunter." But still if this is what he has said, I am pretty curious why they invited Idra, who didn't even qualify. Wasn't Idras reasoning for his withdrawal of the IPL3 groupstage, that the games were meaningless and he wasn't in the shape to bring his a-game? I hope for idra no one tells Mr.Chae about this stuff.
Becoming a ProGamer is about playing what you love every single day and loving the glory of the competitions is it not? Do you remember the winners of GSL kissing the trophy or the cheque? Idra wasnt in the shape to bring his A game. Sounds like passion to me not "I dont paid enough" I feel they have made the right decision towards progaming as a passion for people not a career path
On December 15 2011 03:53 Delicious Insanity wrote: I'm repeating myself, but whatever.
If you have a global tournament, try and find a middle road. Don't enforce the punishment that's normal for 1 of the cultures involved.
Please, in what country would this kind of behavior ever be acceptable? In what workplace would you find someone bitching about a rule not existing about doing "random disrespectful thing".
This is not about culture, this is about professionalism and taking your job seriously. MLG should've punished Naniwa aswell because he ridiculed them. I don't it's too much to ask to be manner and nice to the people around you while you're at work.
Ridicule him for his opinion? What a joke.
Yeah, whoever got ridiculed for an opinion on the internet?
You should actually try reading what was said before you respond.
On December 15 2011 03:53 Delicious Insanity wrote: I'm repeating myself, but whatever.
If you have a global tournament, try and find a middle road. Don't enforce the punishment that's normal for 1 of the cultures involved.
Please, in what country would this kind of behavior ever be acceptable? In what workplace would you find someone bitching about a rule not existing about doing "random disrespectful thing".
This is not about culture, this is about professionalism and taking your job seriously. MLG should've punished Naniwa aswell because he ridiculed them. I don't it's too much to ask to be manner and nice to the people around you while you're at work.
I am talking about the punishment, because I feel it's to harsh. He should be penalized in one way or the other, but I feel that taking away his code s seed is to harsh.
He never had the seed he was a candidate for it, they just took him out of the running.
On the Idra IPL post mentioned The Idra IPL thing had an understanding. He played 1 match after coming back from China and made an educated decision to preserve himself for the other games.
The 2 situations are incomparable as from what I read he was sleeping in the players lounge and all over the place on Day1 even IPL could see he was unfit to play, obviously they would of liked him to play but dragging him up half asleep does them no good and does him no good
On December 15 2011 03:04 NHY wrote: There is a thread with similar name with incorrect information and it is causing people to believe in false information. But I was told to piss off by OP of that thread so there is no chance he'll change what he wrote now. So, here it goes.
First of all, what Mr. Chae actually said:
프로게이머라는 직업이 사실은 이겨서 상금을 타가서 그걸로 업을 삼는다고 프로게이머라고 생각하지 않아요 프로게이머라는 직업은 승부를 가리는 것들을 시청자분들에게 보여주고 그것들을 시청자 분들이 열광하고 그것을 통해서 승부를 가리는 것을 직업으로 삼는 선수들을 프로게이머라고 저희가 생각을하고 있기 때문에 저희가 시드를 줬던것은 퀀틱 게이밍의 프로토스 프로게이머 나니와 선수였지 스웨덴에서 게임을 잘하는 청년 요한 루세시는 아니였습니다.
"We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. We think that pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that. We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not to Johan Lucchesi from Sweden, who plays the game well."
There was NO mention of the conduct rule, it being a "punishment", or that he is "an amateur prize money hunter."
Please limit the discussion in this thread to what was said during today's Blizzard cup Korean stream and discuss the issue of NaNiwa & Code S seed in 100 other threads.
We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. So they don't believe in the common definition of a progamer. Which is basicly your getting enough money from gaming to life from that. Atleast he was that "professional" and didn't call him "an amateur prize money hunter." But still if this is what he has said, I am pretty curious why they invited Idra, who didn't even qualify. Wasn't Idras reasoning for his withdrawal of the IPL3 groupstage, that the games were meaningless and he wasn't in the shape to bring his a-game? I hope for idra no one tells Mr.Chae about this stuff.
His main reason for withdrawal was probably exhaustion.
Exhaustion from what? He played 3 bo1, which is essentially 1 full bo3 series. It's insulting to naniwa to even suggest he would be exhausted from playing 1 full bo3.
On December 15 2011 03:56 Fandango wrote: I really dislike that they're co-opting 'progamer' to mean the thing which helps the business side of things out (i.e. appeasing the fans and acting in a pre-approved manner), over meaning players who play the game at its highest competitive level, for the competition itself, using prize money to support that dedication. It's irritating because it can easily turn into a slippery slope where we end up with the kind of stilted interviews and lack of personality of BW events for fear of upsetting the infrastructure that supports them. The globalisation of starcraft has been fantastic for distributing the power of the tournament organisers to control things for ulterior motives that benefit them over the players, but the GSL having the best players means it has the most leverage to do things that satisfy their agenda, whether it's good for the players or not.
The weird way people put korean culture on a pedastal is really depressing too, where they think because it's korean they have a right to do things that negatively impact the scene as a whole. In general this whole thing has been one of the most depressing series of events to read on TL and honestly makes me more apathetic about people in general than ever. The amount of bizarre justifications ranging from conservative talking points that make no sense, to pro korean xenophobia, to 'for the greater esports good', to basing arguments off extrapolated opinions with little basis in fact. There's barely been 1 in 10 posts that hasn't included something that isn't a horrible abortion of logic and language.
I agree that it can be a slippery slope but if GOM had let this one go without a punishment, imagine what slippery slope that would create then.
Also, this is a very light punishment. NaNiwa is not even temp banned from participating in GSL. If you take Mr. Chae's argument to an extreme we could end up with "unfit to be a gamer", same place as sAviOr. Now, that is harsh.
On December 15 2011 03:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Pro-gaming is professional gaming. Being a professional means making money. Sure, adding to the hype and getting the crowd fired up can be part of the job too, but first and foremost, pro-gaming is a job.
Pro-gamers need to earn a living for e-sports to be sustainable. Otherwise, this cute vision of "pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that" is too idealistic and not realistic.
If they wanted someone who was super-serious about winning the tournament, they were right to invite Naniwa. If they cared about exciting the audience and hyping up the community, then they shouldn't have chosen to invite a player with a notoriously lackluster personality.
Being professional means that there are certain standards to uphold and certain procedures to respect in the professional circuit, regardless of whether you agree with them or not. There is no question that progamers need to earn a living for e-sports to be sustainable, but ultimately what makes it sustainable is support from fans so companies will continue to sponsor teams.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that in any professional career, there are industry standards that must be met? You do things that you don't necessarily want to do in order to uphold your reputation. If you throw that away, there's no reason you should expect to be respected or recognized as a professional gamer.
On December 15 2011 03:07 PraetorianX wrote: Did someone tell them Johan Lucchesi actually is Naniwa?
I mean, he is who he is. Maybe GomTV should be respectful of that instead of trying to mold him into their personally preferred type of pro-gamer persona. I'm not seeing other tournaments having this problem.
what the..? are you serious? other tournaments 'dont have this problem' because all they care about is money and viewership - that doesnt mean thats the correct way to approach the matter. idra and naniwa are both immature childs and should be treated as such. did you seriously imply that a whole organisation like gomtv should go out of their way to accomodate a kid from sweden and his angry 15yo fans?
oh common sense please come back to this place.. GRACE US WITH YOUR PRESENCE!
On December 15 2011 04:02 HandleTaken wrote: I must admit my initial reaction upon hearing about this was: - Sigh, what did Naniwa do this time?
But after reading what actually transpired I think GOM overreacted.
Compare this to the Champions League soccer group game between Dinamo Zagreb vs Lyon. Zagreb had nothing to play for but Lyon did. Lyon won 7 - 1 and advanced from the group. Did Zagreb get thrown out of next CL-season? No, even though that match actually mattered.
I certainly won't subscribe to GSL after something like this happens.
Disciplinary actions regarding Dinamo Zagreb are still ongoing. The first probe for corruption was thrown off, but if Uefa let this pass than the champions league can say goodbye to it's integrity and you know it.
On December 15 2011 03:59 labbe wrote: Okay, so let's say that I actually buy that this is NOT actually a "punishment". There is still some incredible double standards going on here. They are basically saying they are not inviting Naniwa based upon him not respecting the sanctity of competition. Yet at the same time they are inviting players directly into Code S, with very arbitrary reasoning, basically making the seeds to Code S a giant popularity contest, and that totally goes against the spirit of the competition.
I can't really make sense of this.
Well how do you gain that popularity? By doing well at tournaments, is it really that arbitrary of a reason?
On December 15 2011 04:02 bLooD. wrote: GOM´s statements are such jokes.... no 1 would even care if it happened at any other events.
Uhhhh, don't you remember that Naniwa was banned from IEM and EPS? Tournaments outside of korea ARE taking action.
He was NOT banned from EPS for throwing a game... rofl.... He was banned for bm´ing ref´s and players and showing up late for matches.
On December 15 2011 03:59 Mystgun wrote: The statement is saying that the Code S spot was given to the professional gamer NaNiWa who has demonstrated that he was a skillful and professional player up until the Blizzard Cup match with NesTea, not to Johan Lucchesi the skillful gamer who has apparently acted unprofessionally by forfeiting the game in a crude manner.
For those who can't read between the lines, it implies that GSL is disappointed with Naniwa's behavior the other day and until he meets their standard as a professional gamer, they will not seed him into code S
This x100. Skill =/= Professional. Combatex is quite skillful but do we call him a professional? He makes money from the game through streams, lessons and such so he has the qualifications of a professional right?
Well..no. Combatx isn't really skilled. That and he cheats. Quite different from throwing a pointless game.
Are people arguing about if the code S spot was "an invitation" or not ? The code S spot was Naniwa's, no need to argue otherwise. Just read the LR thread of his MLG, you'll see eveyone cheering because his win in semies meant he won code S.This has also be comfirmed like 100 times, please do not rewrite history. Naniwa was a code S player, it was so for GOM, for Liquipedia, for MLG, for everyone.
On December 15 2011 04:05 xsevR wrote: GOMTV trolling hard to invite Idra over Naniwa based on professionalism...
They must have a different definition of "professional" in Korea, maybe we need a better translation? Money is what distinguishes amateurs and professionals; Maybe a loss in foreign viewership will illustrate this.
On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote: Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer
There was no contractual agreement. MLG/GSL did not extend to 2012 >.< Naniwa did not have a spot, was only a candidate due to his performance. But this is not the purpose of this thread.
In that case they forgot to tell both MLG and the rest of the world. Check out this guys compilation of MLG-quotes saying Naniwa won a code S-seed:
At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
from that line, it is pretty clear that a Code S should be awarded to Naniwa. Mr.Chae, are you going to honor what you/ GomTV promised?
Overturned due to blatent unprofessionalism. Awarded to players more deserving of being named 'CODE S'
so GomTV can make up rules on the fly? next time someone they dont like win MLG, the can award that to #2 one just because they feel like it? e.g if Idra wins and Boxer got second (assume both not in Code S), they can award Boxer because he's more "professional"
the problem is that you just cannot "bend" the rules on the fly especially we are talking International programs, and subjective judgement like being "professional" should not apply as everyone have a very different definition of professional, as I can claim that that Naniwa is professional as he did not want to waste energy on meaningless match and use more time to prepare for the upcoming Code S match
On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote: Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer
There was no contractual agreement. MLG/GSL did not extend to 2012 >.< Naniwa did not have a spot, was only a candidate due to his performance. But this is not the purpose of this thread.
In that case they forgot to tell both MLG and the rest of the world. Check out this guys compilation of MLG-quotes saying Naniwa won a code S-seed:
At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
from that line, it is pretty clear that a Code S should be awarded to Naniwa. Mr.Chae, are you going to honor what you/ GomTV promised?
This line of argument seems unreasonable to me. It is not that GOM is not honoring that promise, it is that Naniwa lost his spot due to outside actions.
I don't think you can reasonably argue that players should not be able to lose spots due to other actions. For example, if a player won MLG, but during the month before GSL, was caught cheating and fixing games for profit in NASL, Dreamhack, ladder, AND IEM-- they would surely lose their GSL Code S spot, and no one would complain.
Thus, this established that was all agree that at least *some actions* are sufficient to cause a player to lose a Code S spot, and that this is NOT an example of GOM not honoring their promise.
Rather, the argument here is really over whether Naniwa's actions were sufficient to justify the punishment that was given, and NOT whether GSL is honoring their promise re: MLG.
But GOM has brought on that discussion by claiming that he was never qualified in the first place and as such they simply didn't invite him. That flies straight in the face of the above. Simply put, GOM doesn't have its story straight.
On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote: Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer
There was no contractual agreement. MLG/GSL did not extend to 2012 >.< Naniwa did not have a spot, was only a candidate due to his performance. But this is not the purpose of this thread.
In that case they forgot to tell both MLG and the rest of the world. Check out this guys compilation of MLG-quotes saying Naniwa won a code S-seed:
At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
from that line, it is pretty clear that a Code S should be awarded to Naniwa. Mr.Chae, are you going to honor what you/ GomTV promised?
They did honor what they promised, then they decided that his conduct was enough to use their discretion in not granting the slot. Presumably they have a clause in their contract that allows for them to over-ride whatever seeding decision they make at will. As an aside, MLG would have very much within their rights to ban and disqualify Naniwa over his comments about it being a joke tourney, they would have done so in pretty-much any professional sports league in the world.
On December 15 2011 04:05 xsevR wrote: GOMTV trolling hard to invite Idra over Naniwa based on professionalism...
They must have a different definition of "professional" in Korea, maybe we need a better translation? Money is what distinguishes amateurs and professionals; Maybe a loss in foreign viewership will illustrate this.
Yea, I'd say a professional is a person who doesnt just throw a game, that is being televised to thousands of viewers all over the world, just because you went 0-3 and dont give a fuck about others. Does that fit your description of professional?
On December 15 2011 04:02 bLooD. wrote: GOM´s statements are such jokes.... no 1 would even care if it happened at any other events.
GSL is for the pro-gamers only not like any other amateur league.
I do think this needs to be considered. Gom are trying to make the GSL the bar-none gold standard for Starcraft 2. It is THE tournament that every player in the world should want to participate in to prove they are the best, and if they haven't competed in GSL, then it doesn't matter how well they do because GSL is better than every other tournament they've ever participated in.
And largely they've succeeded in creating that mentality. For all Naniwa's foreign successes, his four successive Code A slaughters hang over him like a cloud.
So they care (GSL that is) because they think his actions reflect negatively on their tournament, which they take extremely seriously and expect the players to do likewise.
This isn't about manner mules or ceremonies after the games are over, it's about acting professional INSIDE the game, and they feel what he did, and especially being shown using only one hand, looking bored, not microing, was disrespecting the game and the tournament and not the mark of a pro gamer.
Didn't similar issue raised during NASL season 1? Where players still has to play game when it cannot advanced, and a player was missing, which caused a pretty big uproar, this is the same thing.
You play because it's your job, their salary came from the sponsor who earns from viewership, so if you don't give a crap about a tournament that was designed for viewers, then it make sense that he isn't fit for the job.
On December 15 2011 04:02 bLooD. wrote: GOM´s statements are such jokes.... no 1 would even care if it happened at any other event.
Why does GOM have to conform your standards of other events? Why can't true professionalism be enforced? Man, Starleague and Proleague would have benefited 10fold if they had players do what Naniwa did in seemingly meaningly matches.
On December 15 2011 04:07 MrCon wrote: Are people arguing about if the code S spot was "an invitation" or not ? The code S spot was Naniwa's, no need to argue otherwise. Just read the LR thread of his MLG, you'll see eveyone cheering because his win in semies meant he won code S.This has also be comfirmed like 100 times, please do not rewrite history. Naniwa was a code S player, it was so for GOM, for Liquipedia, for MLG, for everyone.
no it was not, reading the news posted directly from gom. who would know better than gom themselves?
I'm sorry, but am I missing something? It seems like this statement is still calling Naniwa an amateur. Anyone with even a modicum of skill at understanding diplomatic language recognizes that this is a punishment, and Mr. Chae is calling Naniwa an unprofessional money hunter in his inference that because Naniwa didn't have an opportunity to make money he didn't play to win a match.
What's more, Mr. Chae is claiming that pro-gamers entire vocation should be for the victory (merits will be ignored). I have to ask what victory when you're unprofessional tournament yields nothing games? The idea that every match should be played to win is ridiculous. You often play a fast match where you have poor odds (due to opponent, map, etc) to save energy for later matches. Hell, players ALLL the time GG out of a game that is by no means over because they are too far down in position. (And I don't mean dramatically like Idra, everyone does it) The only dishonor here is GOM for putting together a tournament that would put players in such unfortunate positions.
On December 15 2011 03:56 Fandango wrote: I really dislike that they're co-opting 'progamer' to mean the thing which helps the business side of things out (i.e. appeasing the fans and acting in a pre-approved manner), over meaning players who play the game at its highest competitive level, for the competition itself, using prize money to support that dedication. It's irritating because it can easily turn into a slippery slope where we end up with the kind of stilted interviews and lack of personality of BW events for fear of upsetting the infrastructure that supports them. The globalisation of starcraft has been fantastic for distributing the power of the tournament organisers to control things for ulterior motives that benefit them over the players, but the GSL having the best players means it has the most leverage to do things that satisfy their agenda, whether it's good for the players or not.
The weird way people put korean culture on a pedastal is really depressing too, where they think because it's korean they have a right to do things that negatively impact the scene as a whole. In general this whole thing has been one of the most depressing series of events to read on TL and honestly makes me more apathetic about people in general than ever. The amount of bizarre justifications ranging from conservative talking points that make no sense, to pro korean xenophobia, to 'for the greater esports good', to basing arguments off extrapolated opinions with little basis in fact. There's barely been 1 in 10 posts that hasn't included something that isn't a horrible abortion of logic and language.
I agree 100% with the first paragraph, but not with some others. There obviously is a "greater good of esports" in some situations and it's not unreasonable to ask players to stop and consider it. Maybe not by threatening their careers but by favouring players who make an effort on the entertainment side for invite only tournaments.
On December 15 2011 04:05 Delicious Insanity wrote:
On December 15 2011 03:59 gullberg wrote:
On December 15 2011 03:53 Delicious Insanity wrote: I'm repeating myself, but whatever.
If you have a global tournament, try and find a middle road. Don't enforce the punishment that's normal for 1 of the cultures involved.
Please, in what country would this kind of behavior ever be acceptable? In what workplace would you find someone bitching about a rule not existing about doing "random disrespectful thing".
This is not about culture, this is about professionalism and taking your job seriously. MLG should've punished Naniwa aswell because he ridiculed them. I don't it's too much to ask to be manner and nice to the people around you while you're at work.
I am talking about the punishment, because I feel it's to harsh. He should be penalized in one way or the other, but I feel that taking away his code s seed is to harsh.
He never had the seed he was a candidate for it, they just took him out of the running.
I think first of all, you guys should be respecting GOM's decision on this. Their culture highly values respect and courtesy and what Naniwa did in that game completely disrespected their culture. Why do you think so many Korean progamers are getting mad over it? Even Idra ggs in GSL, even though he leaves without one most of the time in other tournaments.
Whether it's dumb or not, it's not up to you guys to decide, it's GOM's decision. Even if you guys think it's unfair, you shouldn't go raging at them without considering their perspective on the situation.
On December 15 2011 04:09 furymonkey wrote: Didn't similar issue raised during NASL season 1? Where players still has to play game when it cannot advanced, and a player was missing, which caused a pretty big uproar, this is the same thing.
You play because it's your job, their salary came from the sponsor who earns from viewership, so if you don't give a crap about a tournament that was designed for viewers, then it make sense that he isn't fit for the job.
It's not the same thing. If you play somebody, who has a shot, but you don't, that is something completely different. If Naniwa played Nestea and him losing would mean Nestea going through, I can't see him throwing that game.
I really hope that this is in fact GOM's statement, and the stuff about the "amateur prize-hunter" is not true. I was really quite disgusted by GOM when I heard that statement, much more so than at any punishment, which it is their prerogative to give. Insulting a professional player on a live-stream before thousands of people is much more unprofessional and disrespectful than Naniwa's worst behavior. If this is all that was said, however, then that is better. GOM can invite or not invite who they want, but insulting, slanderous stuff from a professional league is and should be beyond the pale.
I still don't get it. I don't know who is Mr. che but just seems like reading all this thread and make his announcement just well packaged. Where is his problem? I could regonized naniwa was total awful tired before the match #9 is started. And knew something gonna happend. And he was attend the game maybe just rude*. But that's all that he can do. As I can say many times. People are not perfect. The game was already 0-3. And it was very late. He doesn't know the other fan. or the system rolling. Like he doesn't admin this fan page at all. He just done what he can do all everything. He doesn't ignore korean people. doesn't look down nestea or Gom staffs. Don' you think, we just think, korean, oh, he's racist. Oh, he looks down at us. Oh he plays with us. Don't you think, it just all own your thoughts? Naniwa never thought like that maybe.
It just seems like that way, because we didn't see that guy here in korea. because we all same, wearing same uniform. we have to have all same ettitude. we grew up like this way. in same education. same background. OMG. how can you this young guy kill in this way.
This is really Not alright.
Don't put your priviate opnion's feeling to this a person. who is just from sweden who starts only new career here.
On December 15 2011 04:04 Trsjnica wrote: This line of argument seems unreasonable to me. It is not that GOM is not honoring that promise, it is that Naniwa lost his spot due to outside actions.
I don't think you can reasonably argue that players should not be able to lose spots due to other actions. For example, if a player won MLG, but during the month before GSL, was caught cheating and fixing games for profit in NASL, Dreamhack, ladder, AND IEM-- they would surely lose their GSL Code S spot, and no one would complain.
Thus, this established that was all agree that at least *some actions* are sufficient to cause a player to lose a Code S spot, and that this is NOT an example of GOM not honoring their promise.
Rather, the argument here is really over whether Naniwa's actions were sufficient to justify the punishment that was given, and NOT whether GSL is honoring their promise re: MLG.
cheating and fixing games is breaking the law, this wasn't. i'm not an sc2 person but this is absolutely unfair. nfl teams "suck for luck." hell at the bnp paribas masters tennis tournament alex bogomolov jr. said "i don't want to be here" and almost retired without even having been injured. these sorts of things can result in some kind of fine or citation but never in somebody just saying "okay, we don't want you in the tournament anymore, even though you qualified under our rules, so we will simply replace you."
On December 15 2011 04:05 xsevR wrote: GOMTV trolling hard to invite Idra over Naniwa based on professionalism...
They must have a different definition of "professional" in Korea, maybe we need a better translation? Money is what distinguishes amateurs and professionals; Maybe a loss in foreign viewership will illustrate this.
Let's stay on topic. I imagine they're inviting IdrA because:
1) He's already competed in Code S and played in Korea - they know what to expect. 2) He's never been eliminated from Code S. 3) He's going to bring a large foreign fan base to the GSL, which is what they want.
On December 15 2011 03:13 Jhax[IRE] wrote: Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum.
Really? That's a supremely stark and ignoble outlook on life as a whole. People, unanimously, are forced to do things they don't want to do on a daily basis and I would say, as a general statement, do more than the bare minimum because they understand the importance of it.
It's this mentality that really bothers me, he's a professional. His job is to be above the 99% of other gamers, to never just settle for the bare minimum (especially given his own goals), and to try his hardest at every given opportunity no matter how hopeless it may seem or how worthless it may be. How can one even believe Naniwa when he says "I want to be the best" when he can hardly hold himself to those standards? Throwing a game isn't something someone who wants to be the best does--the rationalization that the match doesn't matter says that the tournament is more important to Naniwa than how good he as a player is.
I've seen many people writing, "But they do it in other sports, why is it ok there?" It's not ok, it's never ok, the fact people don't give a shit isn't ok. I read these tournament reports of Magic the Gathering, people splitting prize pools or drawing into the top 8 because the game doesn't matter, or sports teams not trying their best because they games don't matter. They do matter, they all matter, but when you put winning above being the best, I guess you lose sight of that somewhere.
He can still strive to be the best whilst not playing Nestea ya know. Just because he didn't want to feel stressed or continue on for a match that shouldn't have even taken place (wtf? No incentive match?) doesn't mean his statement of wanting to be the best is unbelievable. On the contrary, because the match wasn't that important and he didn't take it seriously, you can count on him taking the ones that matter more way more seriously.
Your statement is invalid.
I would enormously disagree. Every match matters, no matter what. Under no circumstance does a match not matter to someone who's only goal is to be the best. It's not about winning or losing, it's not about whether this match puts you further in the tournament, it's about showing you're the best everywhere you are in everything you do. If the match "wasn't that important", he should have made it important to himself.
His statement that he wants to be the best is unbelievable (or, more realistically, less than genuine) because he doesn't show it in his demeanor, mentality, and gameplay.
We could have been talking today about how Naniwa, with absolutely nothing on the line gave the game his all. Would you have less respect for Naniwa had he played out the game as hard as he possibly could? Or would you be even more on his side for the fact that even though "the game didn't matter", it mattered to him?
On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote: Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer
There was no contractual agreement. MLG/GSL did not extend to 2012 >.< Naniwa did not have a spot, was only a candidate due to his performance. But this is not the purpose of this thread.
In that case they forgot to tell both MLG and the rest of the world. Check out this guys compilation of MLG-quotes saying Naniwa won a code S-seed:
At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
from that line, it is pretty clear that a Code S should be awarded to Naniwa. Mr.Chae, are you going to honor what you/ GomTV promised?
Overturned due to blatent unprofessionalism. Awarded to players more deserving of being named 'CODE S'
so GomTV can make up rules on the fly? next time someone they dont like win MLG, the can award that to #2 one just because they feel like it? e.g if Idra wins and Boxer got second (assume both not in Code S), they can award Boxer because he's more "professional"
the problem is that you just cannot "bend" the rules on the fly especially we are talking International programs, and subjective judgement like being "professional" should not apply as everyone have a very different definition of professional, as I can claim that that Naniwa is professional as he did not want to waste energy on meaningless match and use more time to prepare for the upcoming Code S match
This!
Maybe it would be helpful for the discussion to seperate two questions:
1) The question if Naniwar behaved in an unproffesional manner.
2) Does GOM have the right to revoke Naniwars seed for the percieved unprofessionalism, even when there are no clear rules about this situation and he earned the seed by GOMs own rules?
About 1) everyone will have an opinion and is entiteled to it. Question 2) though is the sticking point for me, and I don't see how the answer Yes to 1) = Yes to 2), which is what a lot of people seem to argue.
On December 15 2011 04:05 Delicious Insanity wrote:
On December 15 2011 03:59 gullberg wrote:
On December 15 2011 03:53 Delicious Insanity wrote: I'm repeating myself, but whatever.
If you have a global tournament, try and find a middle road. Don't enforce the punishment that's normal for 1 of the cultures involved.
Please, in what country would this kind of behavior ever be acceptable? In what workplace would you find someone bitching about a rule not existing about doing "random disrespectful thing".
This is not about culture, this is about professionalism and taking your job seriously. MLG should've punished Naniwa aswell because he ridiculed them. I don't it's too much to ask to be manner and nice to the people around you while you're at work.
I am talking about the punishment, because I feel it's to harsh. He should be penalized in one way or the other, but I feel that taking away his code s seed is to harsh.
He never had the seed he was a candidate for it, they just took him out of the running.
Thanks for the info!
What? But the first post clearly says, he HAD the seed. What the hell is going on?
On December 15 2011 04:04 Trsjnica wrote: This line of argument seems unreasonable to me. It is not that GOM is not honoring that promise, it is that Naniwa lost his spot due to outside actions.
I don't think you can reasonably argue that players should not be able to lose spots due to other actions. For example, if a player won MLG, but during the month before GSL, was caught cheating and fixing games for profit in NASL, Dreamhack, ladder, AND IEM-- they would surely lose their GSL Code S spot, and no one would complain.
Thus, this established that was all agree that at least *some actions* are sufficient to cause a player to lose a Code S spot, and that this is NOT an example of GOM not honoring their promise.
Rather, the argument here is really over whether Naniwa's actions were sufficient to justify the punishment that was given, and NOT whether GSL is honoring their promise re: MLG.
cheating and fixing games is breaking the law, this wasn't. i'm not an sc2 person but this is absolutely unfair. nfl teams "suck for luck." hell at the bnp paribas masters tennis tournament alex bogomolov jr. said "i don't want to be here" and almost retired without even having been injured. these sorts of things can result in some kind of fine or citation but never in somebody just saying "okay, we don't want you in the tournament anymore, even though you qualified under our rules, so we will simply replace you."
He did not qualified contractually, it was their decision to decide that his conduct was not worthy of a PRIVILEGE spot.
On December 15 2011 03:56 Fandango wrote: I really dislike that they're co-opting 'progamer' to mean the thing which helps the business side of things out (i.e. appeasing the fans and acting in a pre-approved manner), over meaning players who play the game at its highest competitive level, for the competition itself, using prize money to support that dedication. It's irritating because it can easily turn into a slippery slope where we end up with the kind of stilted interviews and lack of personality of BW events for fear of upsetting the infrastructure that supports them. The globalisation of starcraft has been fantastic for distributing the power of the tournament organisers to control things for ulterior motives that benefit them over the players, but the GSL having the best players means it has the most leverage to do things that satisfy their agenda, whether it's good for the players or not.
The weird way people put korean culture on a pedastal is really depressing too, where they think because it's korean they have a right to do things that negatively impact the scene as a whole. In general this whole thing has been one of the most depressing series of events to read on TL and honestly makes me more apathetic about people in general than ever. The amount of bizarre justifications ranging from conservative talking points that make no sense, to pro korean xenophobia, to 'for the greater esports good', to basing arguments off extrapolated opinions with little basis in fact. There's barely been 1 in 10 posts that hasn't included something that isn't a horrible abortion of logic and language.
I agree that it can be a slippery slope but if GOM had let this one go without a punishment, imagine what slippery slope that would create then.
Also, this is a very light punishment. NaNiwa is not even temp banned from participating in GSL. If you take Mr. Chae's argument to an extreme we could end up with "unfit to be a gamer", same place as sAviOr. Now, that is harsh.
The punishment might be light (I disagree, but it's a matter of judgement) but the justification is dangerous. GOMTV claims that they have the right to define what it means to be a progamer, independently from someone's results in competition.
There are ways of stopping what Savior did without changing the definition of progamer to an entertainer who plays games well.
ehm im lost, naniwa qualifed for GSL Code S, then he probes rush at BlizzardCup and now GOMTV says that they are kicking Naniwa from Code S becouse they didnt like the way he played against nestea... interesting... sounds like GOMTV is overreacting and being a bit.... well actually i dont know how to say it without offensive words, so gl GSL not a good move.
On December 15 2011 04:05 xsevR wrote: GOMTV trolling hard to invite Idra over Naniwa based on professionalism...
They must have a different definition of "professional" in Korea, maybe we need a better translation? Money is what distinguishes amateurs and professionals; Maybe a loss in foreign viewership will illustrate this.
Let's stay on topic. I imagine they're inviting IdrA because:
1) He's already competed in Code S and played in Korea - they know what to expect. 2) He's never been eliminated from Code S. 3) He's going to bring a large foreign fan base to the GSL, which is what they want.
how is that on topic? The OP specifically says that this thread is only about the message, not about idra.
On December 15 2011 04:12 mind_control wrote: I still don't get it. I don't know who is Mr. che but just seems like reading all this thread and make his announcement just well packaged. Where is his problem? I could regonized naniwa was total awful tired before the match #9 is started. And knew something gonna happend. And he was attend the game maybe just rude*. But that's all that he can do. As I can say many times. People are not perfect. The game was already 0-3. And it was very late. He doesn't know the other fan. or the system rolling. Like he doesn't admin this fan page at all. He just done what he can do all everything. He doesn't ignore korean people. doesn't look down nestea or Gom staffs. Don' you think, we just think, korean, oh, he's racist. Oh, he looks down at us. Oh he plays with us. Don't you think, it just all own your thoughts? Naniwa never thought like that maybe.
It just seems like that way, because we didn't see that guy here in korea. because we all same, wearing same uniform. we have to have all same ettitude. we grew up like this way. in same education. same background. OMG. how can you this young guy kill in this way.
This is really Not alright.
Don't put your priviate opnion's feeling to this a person. who is just from sweden who starts only new career here.
On December 15 2011 04:09 ShepherdC wrote: I'm sorry, but am I missing something? It seems like this statement is still calling Naniwa an amateur. Anyone with even a modicum of skill at understanding diplomatic language recognizes that this is a punishment, and Mr. Chae is calling Naniwa an unprofessional money hunter in his inference that because Naniwa didn't have an opportunity to make money he didn't play to win a match.
What's more, Mr. Chae is claiming that pro-gamers entire vocation should be for the victory (merits will be ignored). I have to ask what victory when you're unprofessional tournament yields nothing games? The idea that every match should be played to win is ridiculous. You often play a fast match where you have poor odds (due to opponent, map, etc) to save energy for later matches. Hell, players ALLL the time GG out of a game that is by no means over because they are too far down in position. (And I don't mean dramatically like Idra, everyone does it) The only dishonor here is GOM for putting together a tournament that would put players in such unfortunate positions.
Tournament format does not matter!! Being put in these situations does not matter!! If your a progamer and your put in any situation regarding your game you should ACT like a professional, suck it up, focus on the game you are currently playing and play it. The difference between pros and naniwa is pros don't let emotions run them down so badly that they just GIVE UP COMPLETELY. Seriously what is that? Giving up while being televised, in front of thousands is what you want in a person who calls himself a professional? Man im seriously losing hope in our foreigner community if we justify GIVING UP in our players. WHAT A DISGRACE.
On December 15 2011 04:14 Ponchey wrote: Ok, so in their eyes, Idra is a progamer and Naniwa is not? Is that really... consistent?
I hope you do know the difference between the two. Naniwa has had problems with almost any team and ends up leaving really fast (he has been in 15 teams probably if you count wc3). IdrA even survived being in a korean team for a long long time. Man i hate those comparisons between IdrA and Naniwa..
On December 15 2011 04:09 ShepherdC wrote: I'm sorry, but am I missing something? It seems like this statement is still calling Naniwa an amateur. Anyone with even a modicum of skill at understanding diplomatic language recognizes that this is a punishment, and Mr. Chae is calling Naniwa an unprofessional money hunter in his inference that because Naniwa didn't have an opportunity to make money he didn't play to win a match.
What's more, Mr. Chae is claiming that pro-gamers entire vocation should be for the victory (merits will be ignored). I have to ask what victory when you're unprofessional tournament yields nothing games? The idea that every match should be played to win is ridiculous. You often play a fast match where you have poor odds (due to opponent, map, etc) to save energy for later matches. Hell, players ALLL the time GG out of a game that is by no means over because they are too far down in position. (And I don't mean dramatically like Idra, everyone does it) The only dishonor here is GOM for putting together a tournament that would put players in such unfortunate positions.
this is exactly the kind of culture they want to inculcate - play for the victory, not for the money, cause it's not like they're going to pay these korean kids enough to make it truly worth their while to drop out of school and pursue this single-mindedly the way they do. this is just another example of esports taking advantage of the players and acting in loco parentis rather than respectfully as an employer or as an equal
On December 15 2011 04:05 xsevR wrote: GOMTV trolling hard to invite Idra over Naniwa based on professionalism...
They must have a different definition of "professional" in Korea, maybe we need a better translation? Money is what distinguishes amateurs and professionals; Maybe a loss in foreign viewership will illustrate this.
Let's stay on topic. I imagine they're inviting IdrA because:
1) He's already competed in Code S and played in Korea - they know what to expect. 2) He's never been eliminated from Code S. 3) He's going to bring a large foreign fan base to the GSL, which is what they want.
They're inviting Sen* instead of Naniwa although Naniwa was never invited he was merely a strong candidate for 2 spots.
If Naniwa didn't act unprofessional they would of invited Idra AND Naniwa (most likely)
On December 15 2011 03:59 Mystgun wrote: The statement is saying that the Code S spot was given to the professional gamer NaNiWa who has demonstrated that he was a skillful and professional player up until the Blizzard Cup match with NesTea, not to Johan Lucchesi the skillful gamer who has apparently acted unprofessionally by forfeiting the game in a crude manner.
For those who can't read between the lines, it implies that GSL is disappointed with Naniwa's behavior the other day and until he meets their standard as a professional gamer, they will not seed him into code S
This x100. Skill =/= Professional. Combatex is quite skillful but do we call him a professional? He makes money from the game through streams, lessons and such so he has the qualifications of a professional right?
It's becoming a game of semantics, arguing about whose definition of professional takes precedence. Clearly, what koreans and native english speakers understand by 'professional' is not the same. By combatex living off the money he earns by playing starcraft, he would be called a professional starcraft player. It is his occupation, his mean of livelyhood. Whether he is being a dick while doing it is besides the point. But that's not how you understand the word. It is more in the line of 'does he uphold certain virtues that we ascribe to what we call a professional starcraft player', as I understand it.
The main thing is why is everyone saying how they cant take his seed away? Its their competition is it not? I mean we can argue about the manner of how and why it was taken but seriously its their competition they can kinda do what they want
On December 15 2011 03:12 CryingPoo wrote: Sorry about misinforming. The quote was from a friend of mine who watched it in Korea which I shouldn't have posted if I wasn't sure about the source. Thank you for your contribution.
For fucks sake Crying Poo, remember the Milkis crap? That a translator has responsibilities? Well this is one of them. If you are going to do it, either do it right or don't do it at all.
Also anyone have a link to the stream that this was discussed on? Instead on relying on the translation I would like actually watch it and decide what they sad for myself.
On December 15 2011 04:15 arChieSC2 wrote: ehm im lost, naniwa qualifed for GSL Code S, then he probes rush at BlizzardCup and now GOMTV says that they are kicking Naniwa from Code S becouse they didnt like the way he played against nestea... interesting... sounds like GOMTV is overreacting and being a bit.... well actually i dont know how to say it without offensive words, so gl GSL not a good move.
That's certainly one perspective... but it's obvious the Korean players were upset by all of this. It's not like this is a non-issue. A lot of us are divided, maybe even 50-50, but I don't think we've yet had a report from a Korean source supporting what Naniwa did.
All the ones we've seen have shown them being angry at Naniwa, even from people who are compared to him like MC, who obviously was offended by what Nani did.
On December 15 2011 04:04 Trsjnica wrote: This line of argument seems unreasonable to me. It is not that GOM is not honoring that promise, it is that Naniwa lost his spot due to outside actions.
I don't think you can reasonably argue that players should not be able to lose spots due to other actions. For example, if a player won MLG, but during the month before GSL, was caught cheating and fixing games for profit in NASL, Dreamhack, ladder, AND IEM-- they would surely lose their GSL Code S spot, and no one would complain.
Thus, this established that was all agree that at least *some actions* are sufficient to cause a player to lose a Code S spot, and that this is NOT an example of GOM not honoring their promise.
Rather, the argument here is really over whether Naniwa's actions were sufficient to justify the punishment that was given, and NOT whether GSL is honoring their promise re: MLG.
cheating and fixing games is breaking the law, this wasn't. i'm not an sc2 person but this is absolutely unfair. nfl teams "suck for luck." hell at the bnp paribas masters tennis tournament alex bogomolov jr. said "i don't want to be here" and almost retired without even having been injured. these sorts of things can result in some kind of fine or citation but never in somebody just saying "okay, we don't want you in the tournament anymore, even though you qualified under our rules, so we will simply replace you."
He did not qualified contractually, it was their decision to decide that his conduct was not worthy of a PRIVILEGE spot.
had he been awarded the spot already? were there any conditions to him being awarded the spot? it's all cute and fine to say "act like a professional" but in the real world you are not simply allowed to spank people when they do things you don't like and take back things you've already given them.
On December 15 2011 04:17 Caltu wrote: The main thing is why is everyone saying how they cant take his seed away? Its their competition is it not? I mean we can argue about the manner of how and why it was taken but seriously its their competition they can kinda do what they want
Leagues can do extreme things, it is their league after all
for example in the Champions League after Liverpool won and were unable to qualify next season they directly invited Liverpool back as defending champions.
On December 15 2011 04:05 xsevR wrote: GOMTV trolling hard to invite Idra over Naniwa based on professionalism...
They must have a different definition of "professional" in Korea, maybe we need a better translation? Money is what distinguishes amateurs and professionals; Maybe a loss in foreign viewership will illustrate this.
Let's stay on topic. I imagine they're inviting IdrA because:
1) He's already competed in Code S and played in Korea - they know what to expect. 2) He's never been eliminated from Code S. 3) He's going to bring a large foreign fan base to the GSL, which is what they want.
I love Idra, but not neough to waste time or money on GOM anymore. If they want a large foreign fan base to watch the GSL they should have done things differently, imo. The magic is gone.. worst part is these Korean pro gamers comments that apparently are 100% professional.. so much respect lost
On December 15 2011 03:56 Fandango wrote: I really dislike that they're co-opting 'progamer' to mean the thing which helps the business side of things out (i.e. appeasing the fans and acting in a pre-approved manner), over meaning players who play the game at its highest competitive level, for the competition itself, using prize money to support that dedication. It's irritating because it can easily turn into a slippery slope where we end up with the kind of stilted interviews and lack of personality of BW events for fear of upsetting the infrastructure that supports them. The globalisation of starcraft has been fantastic for distributing the power of the tournament organisers to control things for ulterior motives that benefit them over the players, but the GSL having the best players means it has the most leverage to do things that satisfy their agenda, whether it's good for the players or not.
The weird way people put korean culture on a pedastal is really depressing too, where they think because it's korean they have a right to do things that negatively impact the scene as a whole. In general this whole thing has been one of the most depressing series of events to read on TL and honestly makes me more apathetic about people in general than ever. The amount of bizarre justifications ranging from conservative talking points that make no sense, to pro korean xenophobia, to 'for the greater esports good', to basing arguments off extrapolated opinions with little basis in fact. There's barely been 1 in 10 posts that hasn't included something that isn't a horrible abortion of logic and language.
Naniwa, in throwing the game, didn't play at the highest competitive level. He also did not display any love at all for the competitive side of the game. If he was truly the epitomy of a competitive gamer he would have competed! Instead, since he felt he had nothing to win (even though he had reputation, fans, sponsorship and now we know his code s seed on the line) he threw the game, this is a problem because it actually makes him like he only cares about the money. Only caring about the money is short-sighted, immature, unprofessional and most importantly, since he cares about the money, hurts his brand/marketabilty.
When given the choice between two equals players, one with a reputation for being a baby, and one for being a great professional guy, the professional guy will win out. It's in Naniwas (and all progamers) interest to gain respect by acting professionally. Just because some people don't care about Naniwas attitude, doesn't mean noone does, nor does it mean noone should. If you don't satisfy your fans, guess what! they'll go elsewhere! Naniwa was incredibly short-sighted in his action, it made him look pathetic (whether or not he is, is irrelevant), and alienated a huge part of his community. Naniwa clearly screwed up.
On December 15 2011 04:05 xsevR wrote: GOMTV trolling hard to invite Idra over Naniwa based on professionalism...
They must have a different definition of "professional" in Korea, maybe we need a better translation? Money is what distinguishes amateurs and professionals; Maybe a loss in foreign viewership will illustrate this.
Let's stay on topic. I imagine they're inviting IdrA because:
1) He's already competed in Code S and played in Korea - they know what to expect. 2) He's never been eliminated from Code S. 3) He's going to bring a large foreign fan base to the GSL, which is what they want.
Yeah, I have no problem with Idra or Naniwa--they play the game for money and when the chance for it is gone you get a very similar reaction (not claiming theyre alone either).
Naniwa behavior is not really a source of good income for GOM I have to admit , it's a decision that at least will not make them lose money. We shouldn't talk too much about moral and value in a scene that is now fully powered by money.
On December 15 2011 04:04 Trsjnica wrote: This line of argument seems unreasonable to me. It is not that GOM is not honoring that promise, it is that Naniwa lost his spot due to outside actions.
I don't think you can reasonably argue that players should not be able to lose spots due to other actions. For example, if a player won MLG, but during the month before GSL, was caught cheating and fixing games for profit in NASL, Dreamhack, ladder, AND IEM-- they would surely lose their GSL Code S spot, and no one would complain.
Thus, this established that was all agree that at least *some actions* are sufficient to cause a player to lose a Code S spot, and that this is NOT an example of GOM not honoring their promise.
Rather, the argument here is really over whether Naniwa's actions were sufficient to justify the punishment that was given, and NOT whether GSL is honoring their promise re: MLG.
cheating and fixing games is breaking the law, this wasn't. i'm not an sc2 person but this is absolutely unfair. nfl teams "suck for luck." hell at the bnp paribas masters tennis tournament alex bogomolov jr. said "i don't want to be here" and almost retired without even having been injured. these sorts of things can result in some kind of fine or citation but never in somebody just saying "okay, we don't want you in the tournament anymore, even though you qualified under our rules, so we will simply replace you."
Actually, for the most part, cheating and fixing games is not breaking the law. There is no law against me, for example, using a maphack in a game, or whatever other hacks may exist. Fixing games is only breaking the law if it is done in conjunction with betting on the games/etc--that can be racketeering and fraud among other charges.
This may be in violation of a contract if it occurs during a tournament, but breaking a contract and breaking the law are not at all the same.
On December 15 2011 04:04 Trsjnica wrote: This line of argument seems unreasonable to me. It is not that GOM is not honoring that promise, it is that Naniwa lost his spot due to outside actions.
I don't think you can reasonably argue that players should not be able to lose spots due to other actions. For example, if a player won MLG, but during the month before GSL, was caught cheating and fixing games for profit in NASL, Dreamhack, ladder, AND IEM-- they would surely lose their GSL Code S spot, and no one would complain.
Thus, this established that was all agree that at least *some actions* are sufficient to cause a player to lose a Code S spot, and that this is NOT an example of GOM not honoring their promise.
Rather, the argument here is really over whether Naniwa's actions were sufficient to justify the punishment that was given, and NOT whether GSL is honoring their promise re: MLG.
cheating and fixing games is breaking the law, this wasn't. i'm not an sc2 person but this is absolutely unfair. nfl teams "suck for luck." hell at the bnp paribas masters tennis tournament alex bogomolov jr. said "i don't want to be here" and almost retired without even having been injured. these sorts of things can result in some kind of fine or citation but never in somebody just saying "okay, we don't want you in the tournament anymore, even though you qualified under our rules, so we will simply replace you."
He did not qualified contractually, it was their decision to decide that his conduct was not worthy of a PRIVILEGE spot.
had he been awarded the spot already? were there any conditions to him being awarded the spot? it's all cute and fine to say "act like a professional" but in the real world you are not simply allowed to spank people when they do things you don't like and take back things you've already given them.
I'm looking for a source from GomTV saying we welcome Naniwa to Code S because from what I gather it's all just whispers in the wind.
On December 15 2011 04:04 Trsjnica wrote: This line of argument seems unreasonable to me. It is not that GOM is not honoring that promise, it is that Naniwa lost his spot due to outside actions.
I don't think you can reasonably argue that players should not be able to lose spots due to other actions. For example, if a player won MLG, but during the month before GSL, was caught cheating and fixing games for profit in NASL, Dreamhack, ladder, AND IEM-- they would surely lose their GSL Code S spot, and no one would complain.
Thus, this established that was all agree that at least *some actions* are sufficient to cause a player to lose a Code S spot, and that this is NOT an example of GOM not honoring their promise.
Rather, the argument here is really over whether Naniwa's actions were sufficient to justify the punishment that was given, and NOT whether GSL is honoring their promise re: MLG.
cheating and fixing games is breaking the law, this wasn't. i'm not an sc2 person but this is absolutely unfair. nfl teams "suck for luck." hell at the bnp paribas masters tennis tournament alex bogomolov jr. said "i don't want to be here" and almost retired without even having been injured. these sorts of things can result in some kind of fine or citation but never in somebody just saying "okay, we don't want you in the tournament anymore, even though you qualified under our rules, so we will simply replace you."
He did not qualified contractually, it was their decision to decide that his conduct was not worthy of a PRIVILEGE spot.
had he been awarded the spot already? were there any conditions to him being awarded the spot? it's all cute and fine to say "act like a professional" but in the real world you are not simply allowed to spank people when they do things you don't like and take back things you've already given them.
No spots were given contractually. Totally up to Gom's decision for the two spots in 2012. Naniwa was the highest candidate for one but his unprofessional conduct in the real world does not work out. He is not simply allowed to spank people when they do things he doesnt like.
On December 15 2011 04:17 Caltu wrote: The main thing is why is everyone saying how they cant take his seed away? Its their competition is it not? I mean we can argue about the manner of how and why it was taken but seriously its their competition they can kinda do what they want
it's unlikely that he can, for example, sue to have the seed back, if that's what you mean - although it's possible
On December 15 2011 04:09 ShepherdC wrote: I'm sorry, but am I missing something? It seems like this statement is still calling Naniwa an amateur. Anyone with even a modicum of skill at understanding diplomatic language recognizes that this is a punishment, and Mr. Chae is calling Naniwa an unprofessional money hunter in his inference that because Naniwa didn't have an opportunity to make money he didn't play to win a match.
What's more, Mr. Chae is claiming that pro-gamers entire vocation should be for the victory (merits will be ignored). I have to ask what victory when you're unprofessional tournament yields nothing games? The idea that every match should be played to win is ridiculous. You often play a fast match where you have poor odds (due to opponent, map, etc) to save energy for later matches. Hell, players ALLL the time GG out of a game that is by no means over because they are too far down in position. (And I don't mean dramatically like Idra, everyone does it) The only dishonor here is GOM for putting together a tournament that would put players in such unfortunate positions.
this is exactly the kind of culture they want to inculcate - play for the victory, not for the money, cause it's not like they're going to pay these korean kids enough to make it truly worth their while to drop out of school and pursue this single-mindedly the way they do. this is just another example of esports taking advantage of the players and acting in loco parentis rather than respectfully as an employer or as an equal
Leenock might well disagree with you... And I'm pretty sure that they are taking steps to get more money to the non-GSL players with the weekly cup and other tournaments. It's just that in Korea there isn't enough money IN Starcraft 2 yet. It hasn't caught on quite the way it has overseas.
Basically I don't think you're being fair here. It's not like the non-tournament winners in the foreign community have bags of money coming to them, either.
On December 15 2011 04:04 Trsjnica wrote: This line of argument seems unreasonable to me. It is not that GOM is not honoring that promise, it is that Naniwa lost his spot due to outside actions.
I don't think you can reasonably argue that players should not be able to lose spots due to other actions. For example, if a player won MLG, but during the month before GSL, was caught cheating and fixing games for profit in NASL, Dreamhack, ladder, AND IEM-- they would surely lose their GSL Code S spot, and no one would complain.
Thus, this established that was all agree that at least *some actions* are sufficient to cause a player to lose a Code S spot, and that this is NOT an example of GOM not honoring their promise.
Rather, the argument here is really over whether Naniwa's actions were sufficient to justify the punishment that was given, and NOT whether GSL is honoring their promise re: MLG.
cheating and fixing games is breaking the law, this wasn't. i'm not an sc2 person but this is absolutely unfair. nfl teams "suck for luck." hell at the bnp paribas masters tennis tournament alex bogomolov jr. said "i don't want to be here" and almost retired without even having been injured. these sorts of things can result in some kind of fine or citation but never in somebody just saying "okay, we don't want you in the tournament anymore, even though you qualified under our rules, so we will simply replace you."
He did not qualified contractually, it was their decision to decide that his conduct was not worthy of a PRIVILEGE spot.
IT'S NOT A PRIVILEGE. Unless you clarify in advance that you can withdraw it any point without justification it's not a privilege. It can be an invitation, a promise but not a privilege.
On December 15 2011 03:59 Mystgun wrote: The statement is saying that the Code S spot was given to the professional gamer NaNiWa who has demonstrated that he was a skillful and professional player up until the Blizzard Cup match with NesTea, not to Johan Lucchesi the skillful gamer who has apparently acted unprofessionally by forfeiting the game in a crude manner.
For those who can't read between the lines, it implies that GSL is disappointed with Naniwa's behavior the other day and until he meets their standard as a professional gamer, they will not seed him into code S
This x100. Skill =/= Professional. Combatex is quite skillful but do we call him a professional? He makes money from the game through streams, lessons and such so he has the qualifications of a professional right?
It's becoming a game of semantics, arguing about whose definition of professional takes precedence. Clearly, what koreans and native english speakers understand by 'professional' is not the same. By combatex living off the money he earns by playing starcraft, he would be called a professional starcraft player. It is his occupation, his mean of livelyhood. Whether he is being a dick while doing it is besides the point. But that's not how you understand the word. It is more in the line of 'does he uphold certain virtues that we ascribe to what we call a professional starcraft player', as I understand it.
An excellent point. This isn't just a cultural difference, but a language difference that we have to take into account as was analyze the situation.
I'm pretty sure in english both definitions of the word "professional" exist right? (As in, thing you dedicate yourself to in order to make money, and thing you put your soul, heart, etc because you love it and it involves a corresponding behaviour). I'd find it kinda sad if English speakers in general though being a pro at anything is only about money. And weird.
On December 15 2011 04:05 xsevR wrote: GOMTV trolling hard to invite Idra over Naniwa based on professionalism...
They must have a different definition of "professional" in Korea, maybe we need a better translation? Money is what distinguishes amateurs and professionals; Maybe a loss in foreign viewership will illustrate this.
Let's stay on topic. I imagine they're inviting IdrA because:
1) He's already competed in Code S and played in Korea - they know what to expect. 2) He's never been eliminated from Code S. 3) He's going to bring a large foreign fan base to the GSL, which is what they want.
He also forfeited placement matches in MLG numerous times. Maybe that doesn't matter since they wouldn't be casted anyway. If meaningless matches in Blizzard cup affects the MLG-GSL-partnership why not meaningless matches in MLG?
I think neither should affect the seeds and I realise there's a difference, but I still feel the GSL-guys are a little nonchalant towards MLG.
On December 15 2011 04:04 Trsjnica wrote: This line of argument seems unreasonable to me. It is not that GOM is not honoring that promise, it is that Naniwa lost his spot due to outside actions.
I don't think you can reasonably argue that players should not be able to lose spots due to other actions. For example, if a player won MLG, but during the month before GSL, was caught cheating and fixing games for profit in NASL, Dreamhack, ladder, AND IEM-- they would surely lose their GSL Code S spot, and no one would complain.
Thus, this established that was all agree that at least *some actions* are sufficient to cause a player to lose a Code S spot, and that this is NOT an example of GOM not honoring their promise.
Rather, the argument here is really over whether Naniwa's actions were sufficient to justify the punishment that was given, and NOT whether GSL is honoring their promise re: MLG.
cheating and fixing games is breaking the law, this wasn't. i'm not an sc2 person but this is absolutely unfair. nfl teams "suck for luck." hell at the bnp paribas masters tennis tournament alex bogomolov jr. said "i don't want to be here" and almost retired without even having been injured. these sorts of things can result in some kind of fine or citation but never in somebody just saying "okay, we don't want you in the tournament anymore, even though you qualified under our rules, so we will simply replace you."
Actually, for the most part, cheating and fixing games is not breaking the law. There is no law against me, for example, using a maphack in a game, or whatever other hacks may exist. Fixing games is only breaking the law if it is done in conjunction with betting on the games/etc--that can be racketeering and fraud among other charges.
This may be in violation of a contract if it occurs during a tournament, but breaking a contract and breaking the law are not at all the same.
uhh are you new to the sc scene? do you remember the bw match-fixing scandal?
On December 15 2011 04:07 MrCon wrote: Are people arguing about if the code S spot was "an invitation" or not ? The code S spot was Naniwa's, no need to argue otherwise. Just read the LR thread of his MLG, you'll see eveyone cheering because his win in semies meant he won code S.This has also be comfirmed like 100 times, please do not rewrite history. Naniwa was a code S player, it was so for GOM, for Liquipedia, for MLG, for everyone.
So basically the 100s of fans in the MLG LR know the clauses of the contract between MLG and GSL better than Mr. Chae who is claiming that the 2012 Code S spot was being "given" rather than earned?
The reason everyone believed that Naniwa earned a Code S spot was because they ASSUMED that the MLG/GSL exchange program would continue throughout 2012. Apparently, it does not according to the GomTV. MLG can't really vouch for you either since they don't seem to be sure about it yet either.
On December 15 2011 01:56 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, we're just becoming aware of the decision from GSL. We don't have all the facts yet and are investigating.
Apparently there is a need to argue since random people like you think they know everything when the most-informed authorities are saying a different message.
On December 15 2011 04:17 Caltu wrote: The main thing is why is everyone saying how they cant take his seed away? Its their competition is it not? I mean we can argue about the manner of how and why it was taken but seriously its their competition they can kinda do what they want
Not if you care about things like integrety of the competion. The only way to have that is to have dependable rules and not make stuff up as you go along.
Like I said elsewhere, the correct thing to do if you deem this unacceptable is to issue a sternly worded warning and make a clear rule that allows you to punish the next guy that breaks it.
mr talks about professionalism... I say no more. Secondly there's two kinds of professionalism a dedication to your occupation and being a circus monkey. If naniwa would have played that game against neastea he would have sold his soul to a entertainment corporation. Now he has left his soul back home where he practises 12 hours a day.
Being a pro-gamer is putting in the hours practising not putting in the hours pleasing the audience.
On December 15 2011 04:04 Trsjnica wrote: This line of argument seems unreasonable to me. It is not that GOM is not honoring that promise, it is that Naniwa lost his spot due to outside actions.
I don't think you can reasonably argue that players should not be able to lose spots due to other actions. For example, if a player won MLG, but during the month before GSL, was caught cheating and fixing games for profit in NASL, Dreamhack, ladder, AND IEM-- they would surely lose their GSL Code S spot, and no one would complain.
Thus, this established that was all agree that at least *some actions* are sufficient to cause a player to lose a Code S spot, and that this is NOT an example of GOM not honoring their promise.
Rather, the argument here is really over whether Naniwa's actions were sufficient to justify the punishment that was given, and NOT whether GSL is honoring their promise re: MLG.
cheating and fixing games is breaking the law, this wasn't. i'm not an sc2 person but this is absolutely unfair. nfl teams "suck for luck." hell at the bnp paribas masters tennis tournament alex bogomolov jr. said "i don't want to be here" and almost retired without even having been injured. these sorts of things can result in some kind of fine or citation but never in somebody just saying "okay, we don't want you in the tournament anymore, even though you qualified under our rules, so we will simply replace you."
He did not qualified contractually, it was their decision to decide that his conduct was not worthy of a PRIVILEGE spot.
IT'S NOT A PRIVILEGE. Unless you clarify in advance that you can withdraw it any point without justification it's not a privilege. It can be an invitation, a promise but not a privilege.
Where have Gomtv blatantly said, "Naniwa heres a Code S spot"?
On December 15 2011 04:09 ShepherdC wrote: I'm sorry, but am I missing something? It seems like this statement is still calling Naniwa an amateur. Anyone with even a modicum of skill at understanding diplomatic language recognizes that this is a punishment, and Mr. Chae is calling Naniwa an unprofessional money hunter in his inference that because Naniwa didn't have an opportunity to make money he didn't play to win a match.
Correct me if im wrong, but arent Korean players quoted as saying they didnt try as hard in the korea vs the world team match the one during the super tourmanent) because it was just a showmatch, and not a serious tournament not for money? I think it was MC who said he didnt give it his all vs white-ra because of that. According to the statement what they did isnt really any different.
hmm, now I really don't know what is worse. Denying him seed (invite, whatever .... which he rightfully earned) due to some ridiculous rule OR kick him out without breaking any rule at all, just because they don't like his attitude
all those format-changing, seed-becoming-invites arguments are just really poor excuses
the fact that mr. chae did not call nani a money hunter is a big deal. because we thought he did and that would have been a great slight to Naniwa. However, this is not the case and now I feel stupid for being all up in arms.
I am very dissapointed in our community right now. There is so much flaming and insults going aroudn that this is ridiculous. There is no organization to what is going on right now and there is so much mis-information. I beleive there should just be one thread created by a mod so that everyone is on the same mindset so we can get away from all these childish accusations
On December 15 2011 04:04 Trsjnica wrote: This line of argument seems unreasonable to me. It is not that GOM is not honoring that promise, it is that Naniwa lost his spot due to outside actions.
I don't think you can reasonably argue that players should not be able to lose spots due to other actions. For example, if a player won MLG, but during the month before GSL, was caught cheating and fixing games for profit in NASL, Dreamhack, ladder, AND IEM-- they would surely lose their GSL Code S spot, and no one would complain.
Thus, this established that was all agree that at least *some actions* are sufficient to cause a player to lose a Code S spot, and that this is NOT an example of GOM not honoring their promise.
Rather, the argument here is really over whether Naniwa's actions were sufficient to justify the punishment that was given, and NOT whether GSL is honoring their promise re: MLG.
cheating and fixing games is breaking the law, this wasn't. i'm not an sc2 person but this is absolutely unfair. nfl teams "suck for luck." hell at the bnp paribas masters tennis tournament alex bogomolov jr. said "i don't want to be here" and almost retired without even having been injured. these sorts of things can result in some kind of fine or citation but never in somebody just saying "okay, we don't want you in the tournament anymore, even though you qualified under our rules, so we will simply replace you."
Actually, for the most part, cheating and fixing games is not breaking the law. There is no law against me, for example, using a maphack in a game, or whatever other hacks may exist. Fixing games is only breaking the law if it is done in conjunction with betting on the games/etc--that can be racketeering and fraud among other charges.
This may be in violation of a contract if it occurs during a tournament, but breaking a contract and breaking the law are not at all the same.
uhh are you new to the sc scene? do you remember the bw match-fixing scandal?
The match-fixing scandal involved betting on the games, which I clearly identified in the quote you posted as the portion of match-fixing that breaks the law.
On December 15 2011 04:19 o[twist] wrote: it's unlikely that he can, for example, sue to have the seed back, if that's what you mean - although it's possible
I was regarding everyones outrage for him leaving the GSL rather than the reasons for it. I mean if anyone has the right to drop people out of the competition its the competition itself. Like the FIA banning and punishing teams for team orders a year back ect ect They have a contract with them but GOM hold the power with their competition and its their business to make sure it has no blemishes
On December 15 2011 03:12 CryingPoo wrote: Sorry about misinforming. The quote was from a friend of mine who watched it in Korea which I shouldn't have posted if I wasn't sure about the source. Thank you for your contribution.
For fucks sake Crying Poo, remember the Milkis crap? That a translator has responsibilities? Well this is one of them. If you are going to do it, either do it right or don't do it at all.
Also anyone have a link to the stream that this was discussed on? Instead on relying on the translation I would like actually watch it and decide what they sad for myself.
I agree that the translator has a big responsibility, but I think that the reader has a responsibility to be a bit careful as well, specially with this kind of drama. We should always request sources and an independent translation of these very controversial statements. Which, over the course of 250 pages, none did as far as I know. >_>
On December 15 2011 03:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Pro-gaming is professional gaming. Being a professional means making money. Sure, adding to the hype and getting the crowd fired up can be part of the job too, but first and foremost, pro-gaming is a job.
Pro-gamers need to earn a living for e-sports to be sustainable. Otherwise, this cute vision of "pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that" is too idealistic and not realistic.
If they wanted someone who was super-serious about winning the tournament, they were right to invite Naniwa. If they cared about exciting the audience and hyping up the community, then they shouldn't have chosen to invite a player with a notoriously lackluster personality.
Being professional means that there are certain standards to uphold and certain procedures to respect in the professional circuit, regardless of whether you agree with them or not. There is no question that progamers need to earn a living for e-sports to be sustainable, but ultimately what makes it sustainable is support from fans so companies will continue to sponsor teams.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that in any professional career, there are industry standards that must be met? You do things that you don't necessarily want to do in order to uphold your reputation. If you throw that away, there's no reason you should expect to be respected or recognized as a professional gamer.
Yeah, just like FireBatHero in Brood War, John McEnroe in tennis, Phil Hellmuth in poker, and Dennis Rodman in basketball, right?
I'm perfectly happy having IdrA, Naniwa, and other bad boys in StarCraft 2. It makes the game more interesting and entertaining than if everyone bows and smiles all the time (though that's not to say I don't also appreciate all the White-Ras and Sheths out there too).
On December 15 2011 04:07 MrCon wrote: Are people arguing about if the code S spot was "an invitation" or not ? The code S spot was Naniwa's, no need to argue otherwise. Just read the LR thread of his MLG, you'll see eveyone cheering because his win in semies meant he won code S.This has also be comfirmed like 100 times, please do not rewrite history. Naniwa was a code S player, it was so for GOM, for Liquipedia, for MLG, for everyone.
So basically the 100s of fans in the MLG LR know the clauses of the contract between MLG and GSL better than Mr. Chae who is claiming that the 2012 Code S spot was being "given" rather than earned?
The reason everyone believed that Naniwa earned a Code S spot was because they ASSUMED that the MLG/GSL exchange program would continue throughout 2012. Apparently, it does not according to the GomTV. MLG can't really vouch for you either since they don't seem to be sure about it yet either.
On December 15 2011 01:56 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, we're just becoming aware of the decision from GSL. We don't have all the facts yet and are investigating.
Apparently there is a need to argue since random people like you think they know everything when the most-informed authorities are saying a different message.
lol yeah. of course you can trust chae to "know" the contract - of course, he's on one of the sides in the dispute, but you can take him at his word that he's not breaking his promise to naniwa.
or maybe we should actually try and figure out what was promised and what wasn't
On December 15 2011 04:04 Trsjnica wrote: This line of argument seems unreasonable to me. It is not that GOM is not honoring that promise, it is that Naniwa lost his spot due to outside actions.
I don't think you can reasonably argue that players should not be able to lose spots due to other actions. For example, if a player won MLG, but during the month before GSL, was caught cheating and fixing games for profit in NASL, Dreamhack, ladder, AND IEM-- they would surely lose their GSL Code S spot, and no one would complain.
Thus, this established that was all agree that at least *some actions* are sufficient to cause a player to lose a Code S spot, and that this is NOT an example of GOM not honoring their promise.
Rather, the argument here is really over whether Naniwa's actions were sufficient to justify the punishment that was given, and NOT whether GSL is honoring their promise re: MLG.
cheating and fixing games is breaking the law, this wasn't. i'm not an sc2 person but this is absolutely unfair. nfl teams "suck for luck." hell at the bnp paribas masters tennis tournament alex bogomolov jr. said "i don't want to be here" and almost retired without even having been injured. these sorts of things can result in some kind of fine or citation but never in somebody just saying "okay, we don't want you in the tournament anymore, even though you qualified under our rules, so we will simply replace you."
Actually, for the most part, cheating and fixing games is not breaking the law. There is no law against me, for example, using a maphack in a game, or whatever other hacks may exist. Fixing games is only breaking the law if it is done in conjunction with betting on the games/etc--that can be racketeering and fraud among other charges.
This may be in violation of a contract if it occurs during a tournament, but breaking a contract and breaking the law are not at all the same.
uhh are you new to the sc scene? do you remember the bw match-fixing scandal?
He pretty clearly says 'Fixing games is only breaking the law if it is done in conjunction with betting on the games/etc'.
On December 15 2011 04:04 Trsjnica wrote: This line of argument seems unreasonable to me. It is not that GOM is not honoring that promise, it is that Naniwa lost his spot due to outside actions.
I don't think you can reasonably argue that players should not be able to lose spots due to other actions. For example, if a player won MLG, but during the month before GSL, was caught cheating and fixing games for profit in NASL, Dreamhack, ladder, AND IEM-- they would surely lose their GSL Code S spot, and no one would complain.
Thus, this established that was all agree that at least *some actions* are sufficient to cause a player to lose a Code S spot, and that this is NOT an example of GOM not honoring their promise.
Rather, the argument here is really over whether Naniwa's actions were sufficient to justify the punishment that was given, and NOT whether GSL is honoring their promise re: MLG.
cheating and fixing games is breaking the law, this wasn't. i'm not an sc2 person but this is absolutely unfair. nfl teams "suck for luck." hell at the bnp paribas masters tennis tournament alex bogomolov jr. said "i don't want to be here" and almost retired without even having been injured. these sorts of things can result in some kind of fine or citation but never in somebody just saying "okay, we don't want you in the tournament anymore, even though you qualified under our rules, so we will simply replace you."
Actually, for the most part, cheating and fixing games is not breaking the law. There is no law against me, for example, using a maphack in a game, or whatever other hacks may exist. Fixing games is only breaking the law if it is done in conjunction with betting on the games/etc--that can be racketeering and fraud among other charges.
This may be in violation of a contract if it occurs during a tournament, but breaking a contract and breaking the law are not at all the same.
uhh are you new to the sc scene? do you remember the bw match-fixing scandal?
Depends on what you understand under match-fixing. I'm sure the bw players only got sentenced because there was the element of illegal betting and massive manipulation. People also call Coca throwing a won game against Byun as match-fixing and I'm quite sure there was nothing illegal there. Moreover, just because something is illegal in Korea doesn't mean it is in most of the world (see match-fixing scandal in German football scene, where it only had internal consequences for the parties involved).
On December 15 2011 04:15 arChieSC2 wrote: ehm im lost, naniwa qualifed for GSL Code S, then he probes rush at BlizzardCup and now GOMTV says that they are kicking Naniwa from Code S becouse they didnt like the way he played against nestea... interesting... sounds like GOMTV is overreacting and being a bit.... well actually i dont know how to say it without offensive words, so gl GSL not a good move.
He wasn't qualified for Code S. He was qualified as one of the candidates to earn Code S seed. And GOMTV didn't kick NaNiwa out from code S, it's more like NaNiwa lost his key to open the door to enter Code S. GSL isn't like any other armature league where players play for fun or for the money. GSL is a tournament where pro-gamers compete each others.
On December 15 2011 04:21 msl wrote: Not if you care about things like integrety of the competion. The only way to have that is to have dependable rules and not make stuff up as you go along.
Like I said elsewhere, the correct thing to do if you deem this unacceptable is to issue a sternly worded warning and make a clear rule that allows you to punish the next guy that breaks it.
The competition in question has yet to start. Its not like its the Ro4 and they are deciding to drop them. Maybe then its alot more questionable
On December 15 2011 04:04 Trsjnica wrote: This line of argument seems unreasonable to me. It is not that GOM is not honoring that promise, it is that Naniwa lost his spot due to outside actions.
I don't think you can reasonably argue that players should not be able to lose spots due to other actions. For example, if a player won MLG, but during the month before GSL, was caught cheating and fixing games for profit in NASL, Dreamhack, ladder, AND IEM-- they would surely lose their GSL Code S spot, and no one would complain.
Thus, this established that was all agree that at least *some actions* are sufficient to cause a player to lose a Code S spot, and that this is NOT an example of GOM not honoring their promise.
Rather, the argument here is really over whether Naniwa's actions were sufficient to justify the punishment that was given, and NOT whether GSL is honoring their promise re: MLG.
cheating and fixing games is breaking the law, this wasn't. i'm not an sc2 person but this is absolutely unfair. nfl teams "suck for luck." hell at the bnp paribas masters tennis tournament alex bogomolov jr. said "i don't want to be here" and almost retired without even having been injured. these sorts of things can result in some kind of fine or citation but never in somebody just saying "okay, we don't want you in the tournament anymore, even though you qualified under our rules, so we will simply replace you."
He did not qualified contractually, it was their decision to decide that his conduct was not worthy of a PRIVILEGE spot.
IT'S NOT A PRIVILEGE. Unless you clarify in advance that you can withdraw it any point without justification it's not a privilege. It can be an invitation, a promise but not a privilege.
A tournament has the right to deny anyone they deem unworthy. GOM has that rule written so they have the right to remove it. They also have complete justification in doing it, not like Naniwa was acting like an angel.
On December 15 2011 04:04 Trsjnica wrote: This line of argument seems unreasonable to me. It is not that GOM is not honoring that promise, it is that Naniwa lost his spot due to outside actions.
I don't think you can reasonably argue that players should not be able to lose spots due to other actions. For example, if a player won MLG, but during the month before GSL, was caught cheating and fixing games for profit in NASL, Dreamhack, ladder, AND IEM-- they would surely lose their GSL Code S spot, and no one would complain.
Thus, this established that was all agree that at least *some actions* are sufficient to cause a player to lose a Code S spot, and that this is NOT an example of GOM not honoring their promise.
Rather, the argument here is really over whether Naniwa's actions were sufficient to justify the punishment that was given, and NOT whether GSL is honoring their promise re: MLG.
cheating and fixing games is breaking the law, this wasn't. i'm not an sc2 person but this is absolutely unfair. nfl teams "suck for luck." hell at the bnp paribas masters tennis tournament alex bogomolov jr. said "i don't want to be here" and almost retired without even having been injured. these sorts of things can result in some kind of fine or citation but never in somebody just saying "okay, we don't want you in the tournament anymore, even though you qualified under our rules, so we will simply replace you."
Actually, for the most part, cheating and fixing games is not breaking the law. There is no law against me, for example, using a maphack in a game, or whatever other hacks may exist. Fixing games is only breaking the law if it is done in conjunction with betting on the games/etc--that can be racketeering and fraud among other charges.
This may be in violation of a contract if it occurs during a tournament, but breaking a contract and breaking the law are not at all the same.
uhh are you new to the sc scene? do you remember the bw match-fixing scandal?
Depends on what you understand under match-fixing. I'm sure the bw players only got sentenced because there was the element of illegal betting and massive manipulation. People also call Coca throwing a won game against Byun as match-fixing and I'm quite sure there was nothing illegal there. Moreover, just because something is illegal in Korea doesn't mean it is in [i][most/i] of the world (see match-fixing scandal in German football scene, where it only had internal consequences for the parties involved).
sure - but the example he cited was "cheating and fixing games for profit" - my point was that that would be a very different situation
On December 15 2011 03:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Pro-gaming is professional gaming. Being a professional means making money. Sure, adding to the hype and getting the crowd fired up can be part of the job too, but first and foremost, pro-gaming is a job.
Pro-gamers need to earn a living for e-sports to be sustainable. Otherwise, this cute vision of "pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that" is too idealistic and not realistic.
If they wanted someone who was super-serious about winning the tournament, they were right to invite Naniwa. If they cared about exciting the audience and hyping up the community, then they shouldn't have chosen to invite a player with a notoriously lackluster personality.
Being professional means that there are certain standards to uphold and certain procedures to respect in the professional circuit, regardless of whether you agree with them or not. There is no question that progamers need to earn a living for e-sports to be sustainable, but ultimately what makes it sustainable is support from fans so companies will continue to sponsor teams.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that in any professional career, there are industry standards that must be met? You do things that you don't necessarily want to do in order to uphold your reputation. If you throw that away, there's no reason you should expect to be respected or recognized as a professional gamer.
Yeah, just like FireBatHero in Brood War, John McEnroe in tennis, Phil Hellmuth in poker, and Dennis Rodman in basketball, right?
I'm perfectly happy having IdrA, Naniwa, and other bad boys in StarCraft 2. It makes the game more interesting and entertaining than if everyone bows and smiles all the time (though that's not to say I don't also appreciate all the White-Ras and Sheths out there too).
Didn't John McEnroe - at least - get fined a bunch of times for his behaviour?
I guess being professional now entails giving up on will because "boohoo I just don't feel like playing anymore" no matter how many people are watching, no matter how many people are supporting, no matter where I am, no matter what situation I am in regarding my profession. I am entitled to reap all the positive benefits of being a professional by GIVING UP.
On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote: Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer
There was no contractual agreement. MLG/GSL did not extend to 2012 >.< Naniwa did not have a spot, was only a candidate due to his performance. But this is not the purpose of this thread.
In that case they forgot to tell both MLG and the rest of the world. Check out this guys compilation of MLG-quotes saying Naniwa won a code S-seed:
At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
from that line, it is pretty clear that a Code S should be awarded to Naniwa. Mr.Chae, are you going to honor what you/ GomTV promised?
Overturned due to blatent unprofessionalism. Awarded to players more deserving of being named 'CODE S'
so GomTV can make up rules on the fly? next time someone they dont like win MLG, the can award that to #2 one just because they feel like it? e.g if Idra wins and Boxer got second (assume both not in Code S), they can award Boxer because he's more "professional"
the problem is that you just cannot "bend" the rules on the fly especially we are talking International programs, and subjective judgement like being "professional" should not apply as everyone have a very different definition of professional, as I can claim that that Naniwa is professional as he did not want to waste energy on meaningless match and use more time to prepare for the upcoming Code S match
This!
Maybe it would be helpful for the discussion to seperate two questions:
1) The question if Naniwar behaved in an unproffesional manner.
2) Does GOM have the right to revoke Naniwars seed for the percieved unprofessionalism, even when there are no clear rules about this situation and he earned the seed by GOMs own rules?
About 1) everyone will have an opinion and is entiteled to it. Question 2) though is the sticking point for me, and I don't see how the answer Yes to 1) = Yes to 2), which is what a lot of people seem to argue.
what silly question of course they have guess who runs this tourney? I still think it was the right decision and Naniwa should rethink his behaviour, but there is no need to discuss analogies to other sports and how that match shouldnt have happened in the first place because there are already 300+ pages about that.
On December 15 2011 01:56 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, we're just becoming aware of the decision from GSL. We don't have all the facts yet and are investigating.
Apparently there is a need to argue since random people like you think they know everything when the most-informed authorities are saying a different message.
Thanks, I was looking for some sort of response from the MLG. I'll stop arguing untill I hear what they have to say.
On December 15 2011 03:59 Mystgun wrote: The statement is saying that the Code S spot was given to the professional gamer NaNiWa who has demonstrated that he was a skillful and professional player up until the Blizzard Cup match with NesTea, not to Johan Lucchesi the skillful gamer who has apparently acted unprofessionally by forfeiting the game in a crude manner.
For those who can't read between the lines, it implies that GSL is disappointed with Naniwa's behavior the other day and until he meets their standard as a professional gamer, they will not seed him into code S
This x100. Skill =/= Professional. Combatex is quite skillful but do we call him a professional? He makes money from the game through streams, lessons and such so he has the qualifications of a professional right?
It's becoming a game of semantics, arguing about whose definition of professional takes precedence. Clearly, what koreans and native english speakers understand by 'professional' is not the same. By combatex living off the money he earns by playing starcraft, he would be called a professional starcraft player. It is his occupation, his mean of livelyhood. Whether he is being a dick while doing it is besides the point. But that's not how you understand the word. It is more in the line of 'does he uphold certain virtues that we ascribe to what we call a professional starcraft player', as I understand it.
An excellent point. This isn't just a cultural difference, but a language difference that we have to take into account as was analyze the situation.
It's not semantics. The word itself has value so who gets to decide what it means becomes a question of power. Sure, we might agree that we are talking about two different concepts but we'd still fight over who gets to use the word "progamer" for his favoured concept.
On December 15 2011 04:07 MrCon wrote: Are people arguing about if the code S spot was "an invitation" or not ? The code S spot was Naniwa's, no need to argue otherwise. Just read the LR thread of his MLG, you'll see eveyone cheering because his win in semies meant he won code S.This has also be comfirmed like 100 times, please do not rewrite history. Naniwa was a code S player, it was so for GOM, for Liquipedia, for MLG, for everyone.
So basically the 100s of fans in the MLG LR know the clauses of the contract between MLG and GSL better than Mr. Chae who is claiming that the 2012 Code S spot was being "given" rather than earned?
The reason everyone believed that Naniwa earned a Code S spot was because they ASSUMED that the MLG/GSL exchange program would continue throughout 2012. Apparently, it does not according to the GomTV. MLG can't really vouch for you either since they don't seem to be sure about it yet either.
On December 15 2011 01:56 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, we're just becoming aware of the decision from GSL. We don't have all the facts yet and are investigating.
Apparently there is a need to argue since random people like you think they know everything when the most-informed authorities are saying a different message.
lol yeah. of course you can trust chae to "know" the contract - of course, he's on one of the sides in the dispute, but you can take him at his word that he's not breaking his promise to naniwa.
or maybe we should actually try and figure out what was promised and what wasn't
Do YOU have a copy of the contract between MLG and GSL? No? Then hell yes, I trust Mr. Chae more than you or what any random person in the forum has to say about Naniwa earning a Code S spot through MLG.
There's only two parties who would know for 100% the details of the contract. GomTV and MLG. Seeing as how MLG are still investigating the matter, I will believe Mr. Chae's word until MLG states otherwise.
On December 15 2011 04:04 Trsjnica wrote: This line of argument seems unreasonable to me. It is not that GOM is not honoring that promise, it is that Naniwa lost his spot due to outside actions.
I don't think you can reasonably argue that players should not be able to lose spots due to other actions. For example, if a player won MLG, but during the month before GSL, was caught cheating and fixing games for profit in NASL, Dreamhack, ladder, AND IEM-- they would surely lose their GSL Code S spot, and no one would complain.
Thus, this established that was all agree that at least *some actions* are sufficient to cause a player to lose a Code S spot, and that this is NOT an example of GOM not honoring their promise.
Rather, the argument here is really over whether Naniwa's actions were sufficient to justify the punishment that was given, and NOT whether GSL is honoring their promise re: MLG.
cheating and fixing games is breaking the law, this wasn't. i'm not an sc2 person but this is absolutely unfair. nfl teams "suck for luck." hell at the bnp paribas masters tennis tournament alex bogomolov jr. said "i don't want to be here" and almost retired without even having been injured. these sorts of things can result in some kind of fine or citation but never in somebody just saying "okay, we don't want you in the tournament anymore, even though you qualified under our rules, so we will simply replace you."
Actually, for the most part, cheating and fixing games is not breaking the law. There is no law against me, for example, using a maphack in a game, or whatever other hacks may exist. Fixing games is only breaking the law if it is done in conjunction with betting on the games/etc--that can be racketeering and fraud among other charges.
This may be in violation of a contract if it occurs during a tournament, but breaking a contract and breaking the law are not at all the same.
uhh are you new to the sc scene? do you remember the bw match-fixing scandal?
Depends on what you understand under match-fixing. I'm sure the bw players only got sentenced because there was the element of illegal betting and massive manipulation. People also call Coca throwing a won game against Byun as match-fixing and I'm quite sure there was nothing illegal there. Moreover, just because something is illegal in Korea doesn't mean it is in [i][most/i] of the world (see match-fixing scandal in German football scene, where it only had internal consequences for the parties involved).
sure - but the example he cited was "cheating and fixing games for profit" - my point was that that would be a very different situation
Even that, sadly, isn't illegal in some (maybe most, maybe not, no clue) places of the world, and that is quite a shame, if you ask me.
On December 15 2011 03:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Pro-gaming is professional gaming. Being a professional means making money. Sure, adding to the hype and getting the crowd fired up can be part of the job too, but first and foremost, pro-gaming is a job.
Pro-gamers need to earn a living for e-sports to be sustainable. Otherwise, this cute vision of "pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that" is too idealistic and not realistic.
If they wanted someone who was super-serious about winning the tournament, they were right to invite Naniwa. If they cared about exciting the audience and hyping up the community, then they shouldn't have chosen to invite a player with a notoriously lackluster personality.
Being professional means that there are certain standards to uphold and certain procedures to respect in the professional circuit, regardless of whether you agree with them or not. There is no question that progamers need to earn a living for e-sports to be sustainable, but ultimately what makes it sustainable is support from fans so companies will continue to sponsor teams.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that in any professional career, there are industry standards that must be met? You do things that you don't necessarily want to do in order to uphold your reputation. If you throw that away, there's no reason you should expect to be respected or recognized as a professional gamer.
Yeah, just like FireBatHero in Brood War, John McEnroe in tennis, Phil Hellmuth in poker, and Dennis Rodman in basketball, right?
I'm perfectly happy having IdrA, Naniwa, and other bad boys in StarCraft 2. It makes the game more interesting and entertaining than if everyone bows and smiles all the time (though that's not to say I don't also appreciate all the White-Ras and Sheths out there too).
The guys you named had their fair shares of supensions/fines/punishments for their stupid stuff they pulled . ( Rodman and McEnroe def that those the other idk ). So Naniwa did get one as well .
On December 15 2011 04:24 Dagobert wrote: I wonder what will happen when IdrA GGs out early again in the GSL.
Nothing. This is based around them dropping Johan Lucchesi not Nainiwa. Idra GGs becuase he makes bad decisions not becuase he is feed up that he hasnt made any money. [GOMs statement]
God I can't believe how retarded some TL users are being about this.
a) Naniwa clearly deliberately threw the game. Right or wrong aside can we all at least agree on that? Sending 7 probes to your base is not going to win, I know it, you know it, a silver leaguer knows it. Compounded with looking bored, hand on chin, there shouldn't even be questions about whether he threw the game or not. Therefore discussions along the lines of 'bad stratergies can get you banned from GSL' are fairly stupid. Yes there is a level of subjectivity, yes we should always be able to agree Naniwa wasn't using a bad stratergy, he was throwing the game.
b) Discussions relating to the contractual giving of Naniwa a spot etc are also pretty clear. Yes he was awarded a spot, yes he was going to be going. He was specifically removed due to the rule relating to offending the audience / BM. Therefore due to violating the rules he has been removed. There is no 'they never gave him the spot he contractually must have', but rather it was given and lost due to rule violation.
c) The quote from Mr Chae is explaining the motivation behind the decision, but it seems some people are having trouble understanding it. GOM defines a pro gamer as someone who wants to win no matter what is on the line in a competition like this on the world stage. They are also there to entertain the crowd. There is more to a progamer than simply their skill level. As a result the progamer Naniwa was invited, but because of his BM and clear lack of adherence to the values that define a gamer the person behind the keyboard isn't welcome and has been removed under the previously mentioned rules. As far as they are concerned 'Naniwa' the pro gamer doesn't exist.
TL;DR - Don't be a dick and realise at this level there is more to progaming than simply skill level, but entertaining and maintaining a minimum ethical standard. If you can't do that than you're not going to be welcome in some competitions. Behind GOM 100%.
On December 15 2011 03:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Pro-gaming is professional gaming. Being a professional means making money. Sure, adding to the hype and getting the crowd fired up can be part of the job too, but first and foremost, pro-gaming is a job.
Pro-gamers need to earn a living for e-sports to be sustainable. Otherwise, this cute vision of "pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that" is too idealistic and not realistic.
If they wanted someone who was super-serious about winning the tournament, they were right to invite Naniwa. If they cared about exciting the audience and hyping up the community, then they shouldn't have chosen to invite a player with a notoriously lackluster personality.
Being professional means that there are certain standards to uphold and certain procedures to respect in the professional circuit, regardless of whether you agree with them or not. There is no question that progamers need to earn a living for e-sports to be sustainable, but ultimately what makes it sustainable is support from fans so companies will continue to sponsor teams.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that in any professional career, there are industry standards that must be met? You do things that you don't necessarily want to do in order to uphold your reputation. If you throw that away, there's no reason you should expect to be respected or recognized as a professional gamer.
Yeah, just like FireBatHero in Brood War, John McEnroe in tennis, Phil Hellmuth in poker, and Dennis Rodman in basketball, right?
I'm perfectly happy having IdrA, Naniwa, and other bad boys in StarCraft 2. It makes the game more interesting and entertaining than if everyone bows and smiles all the time (though that's not to say I don't also appreciate all the White-Ras and Sheths out there too).
I cant speak for some of the names you pulled, but Im pretty sure Dennis Rodman and other "bad boys" of other sports and games get banned for doing something unprofessional, its not like Naniwa got exiled from every gaming tournament, heck, he is only banned from one GSL tournament lol. Its fine to have the Naniwas, Idras, Rodmans, OchoCincos, whatever, but they are going to get banned and heckled and more when they dont act like a professional. I dont really hear anyone saying that Naniwa shouldnt be allowed to play SC2 anymore.
On December 15 2011 04:24 Dagobert wrote: I wonder what will happen when IdrA GGs out early again in the GSL.
Nothing. This is based around them dropping Johan Lucchesi not Nainiwa. Idra GGs becuase he makes bad decisions not becuase he is feed up that he hasnt made any money. [GOMs statement]
Besides, early gg is different. Idra's early ggs come from him - often incorrectly - believing that he's lost the game and so he might as well move onto the next one.
He doesn't gg inside the first ten seconds. If he does, you can bet he'll get a GSL ban.
On December 15 2011 04:15 arChieSC2 wrote: ehm im lost, naniwa qualifed for GSL Code S, then he probes rush at BlizzardCup and now GOMTV says that they are kicking Naniwa from Code S becouse they didnt like the way he played against nestea... interesting... sounds like GOMTV is overreacting and being a bit.... well actually i dont know how to say it without offensive words, so gl GSL not a good move.
He wasn't qualified for Code S. He was qualified as one of the candidates to earn Code S seed. And GOMTV didn't kick NaNiwa out from code S, it's more like NaNiwa lost his key to open the door to enter Code S. GSL isn't like any other armature league where players play for fun or for the money. GSL is a tournament where pro-gamers compete each others.
On December 15 2011 04:09 ShepherdC wrote: I'm sorry, but am I missing something? It seems like this statement is still calling Naniwa an amateur. Anyone with even a modicum of skill at understanding diplomatic language recognizes that this is a punishment, and Mr. Chae is calling Naniwa an unprofessional money hunter in his inference that because Naniwa didn't have an opportunity to make money he didn't play to win a match.
What's more, Mr. Chae is claiming that pro-gamers entire vocation should be for the victory (merits will be ignored). I have to ask what victory when you're unprofessional tournament yields nothing games? The idea that every match should be played to win is ridiculous. You often play a fast match where you have poor odds (due to opponent, map, etc) to save energy for later matches. Hell, players ALLL the time GG out of a game that is by no means over because they are too far down in position. (And I don't mean dramatically like Idra, everyone does it) The only dishonor here is GOM for putting together a tournament that would put players in such unfortunate positions.
this is exactly the kind of culture they want to inculcate - play for the victory, not for the money, cause it's not like they're going to pay these korean kids enough to make it truly worth their while to drop out of school and pursue this single-mindedly the way they do. this is just another example of esports taking advantage of the players and acting in loco parentis rather than respectfully as an employer or as an equal
That's a pretty interesting point. The 'honor-code' can be seen as a way of controlling what players expect to receive from their many hours of training and dedication. We know that a lot of korean players receive only food and a place to live as their compensation for being on a SC2 team and for playing the game full time. They may not even qualify as professional in the sense that we usually use the term. "Following an occupation as a means of livelihood". The honorable thing is to shut up and train hard and be professional. Always do your best. Don't question your superiors. Don't rock the boat. And so forth. But that's probably for another thread.
On December 15 2011 04:09 ShepherdC wrote: I'm sorry, but am I missing something? It seems like this statement is still calling Naniwa an amateur. Anyone with even a modicum of skill at understanding diplomatic language recognizes that this is a punishment, and Mr. Chae is calling Naniwa an unprofessional money hunter in his inference that because Naniwa didn't have an opportunity to make money he didn't play to win a match.
What's more, Mr. Chae is claiming that pro-gamers entire vocation should be for the victory (merits will be ignored). I have to ask what victory when you're unprofessional tournament yields nothing games? The idea that every match should be played to win is ridiculous. You often play a fast match where you have poor odds (due to opponent, map, etc) to save energy for later matches. Hell, players ALLL the time GG out of a game that is by no means over because they are too far down in position. (And I don't mean dramatically like Idra, everyone does it) The only dishonor here is GOM for putting together a tournament that would put players in such unfortunate positions.
Yeah, they are saying he doesn't have the mentality of a professional gamer. And that's true, he doesn't. They are claiming he has the skill to be a professional gamer, but it takes more than that. To understand the decision of GOM you have to have some basic understanding of Korean morals and ethics.
I don't believe the part where you say someone plays a fast match due to poor odds applies to Korean gamers. They will always try to make the most / best out of the situation, even if they are at a disadvantage. This is why Koreans almost never gg early.
Maybe you can compare it to the saying "l'art pour l'art". I don't know if you are familiar with it, but it means art has no other goal than art itself. If you translate this to Naniwa, competing has no other goal than to eliminate the competition. One of the major critiques about "l'art pour l'art" is that artist have a duty to make their art understandable and available for everyone. You don't make art for yourself but for the people that watch your art. Koreans feel the same about Starcraft. You not only compete for yourself, but you also have an obligation to compete to your fans.
On December 15 2011 03:12 CryingPoo wrote: Sorry about misinforming. The quote was from a friend of mine who watched it in Korea which I shouldn't have posted if I wasn't sure about the source. Thank you for your contribution.
For fucks sake Crying Poo, remember the Milkis crap? That a translator has responsibilities? Well this is one of them. If you are going to do it, either do it right or don't do it at all.
Also anyone have a link to the stream that this was discussed on? Instead on relying on the translation I would like actually watch it and decide what they sad for myself.
I am very sorry.. I promise that this will not happen again..
I have wrote a blog to entry to apologize to all TL members..
On December 15 2011 04:21 msl wrote: Not if you care about things like integrety of the competion. The only way to have that is to have dependable rules and not make stuff up as you go along.
Like I said elsewhere, the correct thing to do if you deem this unacceptable is to issue a sternly worded warning and make a clear rule that allows you to punish the next guy that breaks it.
The competition in question has yet to start. Its not like its the Ro4 and they are deciding to drop them. Maybe then its alot more questionable
I was refering to GSL as a whole, not a specific season. Basicly it boils down to this:
Either an organisation like GOM has something akin to rule of law, where known rules and pronciples are applied, or it makes stuff up as it goes along, in which case it isn't really a legitimate competion.
On December 15 2011 04:04 Trsjnica wrote: This line of argument seems unreasonable to me. It is not that GOM is not honoring that promise, it is that Naniwa lost his spot due to outside actions.
I don't think you can reasonably argue that players should not be able to lose spots due to other actions. For example, if a player won MLG, but during the month before GSL, was caught cheating and fixing games for profit in NASL, Dreamhack, ladder, AND IEM-- they would surely lose their GSL Code S spot, and no one would complain.
Thus, this established that was all agree that at least *some actions* are sufficient to cause a player to lose a Code S spot, and that this is NOT an example of GOM not honoring their promise.
Rather, the argument here is really over whether Naniwa's actions were sufficient to justify the punishment that was given, and NOT whether GSL is honoring their promise re: MLG.
cheating and fixing games is breaking the law, this wasn't. i'm not an sc2 person but this is absolutely unfair. nfl teams "suck for luck." hell at the bnp paribas masters tennis tournament alex bogomolov jr. said "i don't want to be here" and almost retired without even having been injured. these sorts of things can result in some kind of fine or citation but never in somebody just saying "okay, we don't want you in the tournament anymore, even though you qualified under our rules, so we will simply replace you."
He did not qualified contractually, it was their decision to decide that his conduct was not worthy of a PRIVILEGE spot.
IT'S NOT A PRIVILEGE. Unless you clarify in advance that you can withdraw it any point without justification it's not a privilege. It can be an invitation, a promise but not a privilege.
A tournament has the right to deny anyone they deem unworthy. GOM has that rule written so they have the right to remove it. They also have complete justification in doing it, not like Naniwa was acting like an angel.
They probably have a legal right. They independently may or may not have a moral right. But there's always a nagging feeling that they are being somewhat arbitrary and that their invitations might be revoked unexpectedly.
Actually, I might even go back on what I said before. Maybe their invitation IS a privilege. Whether that's a good thing for GOM or not is another question.
LOL I guess there was something to play for eh nani. If I was Nani, I would be outraged. If he woulda won with the probe rush, it would be different. Just because the game wasn't played how koreans want it to play, they are going to revoke the invitation because of 1 game. Seems so unprofessional to me.
On December 15 2011 04:14 Ponchey wrote: Ok, so in their eyes, Idra is a progamer and Naniwa is not? Is that really... consistent?
I hope you do know the difference between the two. Naniwa has had problems with almost any team and ends up leaving really fast. IdrA even survived being in a korean team for a long long time. Man i hate those comparisons between IdrA and Naniwa..
They're quite unwarranted, Idra hasn't left EG since he's been on it and while he may be blunt and rude, as a general statement he seems well liked amongst everyone that knows him.
On December 15 2011 04:26 Peleus wrote: God I can't believe how retarded some TL users are being about this.
a) Naniwa clearly deliberately threw the game. Right or wrong aside can we all at least agree on that? Sending 7 probes to your base is not going to win, I know it, you know it, a silver leaguer knows it. Compounded with looking bored, hand on chin, there shouldn't even be questions about whether he threw the game or not. Therefore discussions along the lines of 'bad stratergies can get you banned from GSL' are fairly stupid. Yes there is a level of subjectivity, yes we should always be able to agree Naniwa wasn't using a bad stratergy, he was throwing the game.
b) Discussions relating to the contractual giving of Naniwa a spot etc are also pretty clear. Yes he was awarded a spot, yes he was going to be going. He was specifically removed due to the rule relating to offending the audience / BM. Therefore due to violating the rules he has been removed. There is no 'they never gave him the spot he contractually must have', but rather it was given and lost due to rule violation.
c) The quote from Mr Chae is explaining the motivation behind the decision, but it seems some people are having trouble understanding it. GOM defines a pro gamer as someone who wants to win no matter what is on the line in a competition like this on the world stage. They are also there to entertain the crowd. There is more to a progamer than simply their skill level. As a result the progamer Naniwa was invited, but because of his BM and clear lack of adherence to the values that define a gamer the person behind the keyboard isn't welcome and has been removed under the previously mentioned rules. As far as they are concerned 'Naniwa' the pro gamer doesn't exist.
TL;DR - Don't be a dick and realise at this level there is more to progaming than simply skill level, but entertaining and maintaining a minimum ethical standard. If you can't do that than you're not going to be welcome in some competitions. Behind GOM 100%.
I completely agree with you. It boggles my mind how some people were trying to justify that sending the probes had 0.000001% chance of winning, and asking people to draw the line between 6 pooling and this. Unbelievable.
He went to korea to play GSL hosted by Koreans. Korean culture is to play your best every game regardless of wins/losses. He should know that there were other progamers who were better than him that did not get invited to the blizz cup. I don't know whether to remove the code s seed was right or wrong morally based on one game, but Naniwa did cause enough problems for Gom to make this decision so I don't buy into that Gom making a 'bs decision.'
Are they implying that a mere amateur price money hunter was able to destroy Nestea (twice) and MVP? Guess that would make Naniwa my favourite amateur price money hunter to date then ! I cannot really believe that this has been translated properly :D
On December 15 2011 04:09 ShepherdC wrote: I'm sorry, but am I missing something? It seems like this statement is still calling Naniwa an amateur. Anyone with even a modicum of skill at understanding diplomatic language recognizes that this is a punishment, and Mr. Chae is calling Naniwa an unprofessional money hunter in his inference that because Naniwa didn't have an opportunity to make money he didn't play to win a match.
What's more, Mr. Chae is claiming that pro-gamers entire vocation should be for the victory (merits will be ignored). I have to ask what victory when you're unprofessional tournament yields nothing games? The idea that every match should be played to win is ridiculous. You often play a fast match where you have poor odds (due to opponent, map, etc) to save energy for later matches. Hell, players ALLL the time GG out of a game that is by no means over because they are too far down in position. (And I don't mean dramatically like Idra, everyone does it) The only dishonor here is GOM for putting together a tournament that would put players in such unfortunate positions.
this is exactly the kind of culture they want to inculcate - play for the victory, not for the money, cause it's not like they're going to pay these korean kids enough to make it truly worth their while to drop out of school and pursue this single-mindedly the way they do. this is just another example of esports taking advantage of the players and acting in loco parentis rather than respectfully as an employer or as an equal
That's a pretty interesting point. The 'honor-code' can be seen as a way of controlling what players expect to receive from their many hours of training and dedication. We know that a lot of korean players receive only food and a place to live as their compensation for being on a SC2 team and for playing the game full time. They may not even qualify as professional in the sense that we usually use the term. "Following an occupation as a means of livelihood". The honorable thing is to shut up and train hard and be professional. Always do your best. Don't question your superiors. Don't rock the boat. And so forth. But that's probably for another thread.
I always hate it when this gets brought up. It's a known fact that there isn't that much money in SC2 in Korea. It's not like they're nickel-and-diming their players as a scam, they'd LOVE to pay them better. They just don't have the money to be able to do so.
We've had several team coaches come out and say this.
SC2 is just in a bizarre situation where the best players happen to live in a country where their game isn't that popular, so foreigners have more money opportunities than they do.
quote for attention. from the link (some formating with smaller/larger text lost, my highlighting):
By Fidoii Quote
54mins ago
His Code S seed from MLG was declined as a backlash to recent events. He is still qualified to play in GSL Jan code A prelims.
People are throwing it out of proportions because the first message came from a Korean news reporter who attempted to interpret and translate Mr.Chae's message into English on his twitter. He used the word "banned" instead of "declined" so many foreigners (on both sides) thought Naniwa was banned from the entire Season 1 tournament when in fact, only his "invitation" was declined.
Naniwa is still qualified to participate in the GSL prelims, it's his choice whether he wants to or not (Personally I think if he truly doesn't give a f*** about anyone or anything besides winning then he will).
This said person (who will not be named here) then delete d the message on his twitter after causing an uproar. I've contacted an actual GomTV employee who told me an official statement from GomTV will be released tomorrow directed to the foreign community to clear up misunderstandings.
I followed the entire thing since the flame started (when Naniwa probe rushed) and the above is what I have observed over the course of the last 36 hours. Sorry for any typos and thanks for reading.
On December 15 2011 04:04 Trsjnica wrote: This line of argument seems unreasonable to me. It is not that GOM is not honoring that promise, it is that Naniwa lost his spot due to outside actions.
I don't think you can reasonably argue that players should not be able to lose spots due to other actions. For example, if a player won MLG, but during the month before GSL, was caught cheating and fixing games for profit in NASL, Dreamhack, ladder, AND IEM-- they would surely lose their GSL Code S spot, and no one would complain.
Thus, this established that was all agree that at least *some actions* are sufficient to cause a player to lose a Code S spot, and that this is NOT an example of GOM not honoring their promise.
Rather, the argument here is really over whether Naniwa's actions were sufficient to justify the punishment that was given, and NOT whether GSL is honoring their promise re: MLG.
cheating and fixing games is breaking the law, this wasn't. i'm not an sc2 person but this is absolutely unfair. nfl teams "suck for luck." hell at the bnp paribas masters tennis tournament alex bogomolov jr. said "i don't want to be here" and almost retired without even having been injured. these sorts of things can result in some kind of fine or citation but never in somebody just saying "okay, we don't want you in the tournament anymore, even though you qualified under our rules, so we will simply replace you."
He did not qualified contractually, it was their decision to decide that his conduct was not worthy of a PRIVILEGE spot.
IT'S NOT A PRIVILEGE. Unless you clarify in advance that you can withdraw it any point without justification it's not a privilege. It can be an invitation, a promise but not a privilege.
A tournament has the right to deny anyone they deem unworthy. GOM has that rule written so they have the right to remove it. They also have complete justification in doing it, not like Naniwa was acting like an angel.
They probably have a legal right. They independently may or may not have a moral right. But there's always a nagging feeling that they are being somewhat arbitrary and that their invitations might be revoked unexpectedly.
Actually, I might even go back on what I said before. Maybe their invitation IS a privilege. Whether that's a good thing for GOM or not is another question.
I mean unless one conducts himself completely professionally but suffered the same fate as Naniwa, then we can prosecute GOM. It wasnt an arbitrary decision by any means.
On December 15 2011 04:26 Peleus wrote: God I can't believe how retarded some TL users are being about this.
a) Naniwa clearly deliberately threw the game. Right or wrong aside can we all at least agree on that? Sending 7 probes to your base is not going to win, I know it, you know it, a silver leaguer knows it. Compounded with looking bored, hand on chin, there shouldn't even be questions about whether he threw the game or not. Therefore discussions along the lines of 'bad stratergies can get you banned from GSL' are fairly stupid. Yes there is a level of subjectivity, yes we should always be able to agree Naniwa wasn't using a bad stratergy, he was throwing the game.
b) Discussions relating to the contractual giving of Naniwa a spot etc are also pretty clear. Yes he was awarded a spot, yes he was going to be going. He was specifically removed due to the rule relating to offending the audience / BM. Therefore due to violating the rules he has been removed. There is no 'they never gave him the spot he contractually must have', but rather it was given and lost due to rule violation.
c) The quote from Mr Chae is explaining the motivation behind the decision, but it seems some people are having trouble understanding it. GOM defines a pro gamer as someone who wants to win no matter what is on the line in a competition like this on the world stage. They are also there to entertain the crowd. There is more to a progamer than simply their skill level. As a result the progamer Naniwa was invited, but because of his BM and clear lack of adherence to the values that define a gamer the person behind the keyboard isn't welcome and has been removed under the previously mentioned rules. As far as they are concerned 'Naniwa' the pro gamer doesn't exist.
TL;DR - Don't be a dick and realise at this level there is more to progaming than simply skill level, but entertaining and maintaining a minimum ethical standard. If you can't do that than you're not going to be welcome in some competitions. Behind GOM 100%.
Only with a) that may be true, but there's no rule judging the validity of a strategy, no matter how stupid. b) is false, read the OP. No rule specifically mentioned. c) is true, except for the rules part, and there's nothing in there that prohibits Naniwa's attitude.
His ban would've been fine by me, had there actually been a rule in place to stop what Naniwa did. There wasn't.
On December 15 2011 04:31 Kuni wrote: Are they implying that a mere amateur price money hunter was able to destroy Nestea (twice) and MVP? Guess that would make Naniwa my favourite amateur price money hunter to date then ! I cannot really believe that this has been translated properly :D
Please stop using the terms revoke, qualified, or anything else that insinuates he has/had a Code S spot. He was considered as a candidate for one of the two Code S foreigner invites.
On December 15 2011 04:30 truemafia wrote: He went to korea to play GSL hosted by Koreans. Korean culture is to play your best every game regardless of wins/losses. He should know that there were other progamers who were better than him that did not get invited to the blizz cup. I don't know whether to remove the code s seed was right or wrong morally based on one game, but Naniwa did cause enough problems for Gom to make this decision so I don't buy into that Gom making a 'bs decision.'
Rather that Gomtv created the problem, a 6 pool or probe rush isnt really any different, but its clearly much more acceptable. Naniwa didnt take a game seriously that wasnt even supposed to be played, wow what a shame.
On December 15 2011 04:07 MrCon wrote: Are people arguing about if the code S spot was "an invitation" or not ? The code S spot was Naniwa's, no need to argue otherwise. Just read the LR thread of his MLG, you'll see eveyone cheering because his win in semies meant he won code S.This has also be comfirmed like 100 times, please do not rewrite history. Naniwa was a code S player, it was so for GOM, for Liquipedia, for MLG, for everyone.
So basically the 100s of fans in the MLG LR know the clauses of the contract between MLG and GSL better than Mr. Chae who is claiming that the 2012 Code S spot was being "given" rather than earned?
The reason everyone believed that Naniwa earned a Code S spot was because they ASSUMED that the MLG/GSL exchange program would continue throughout 2012. Apparently, it does not according to the GomTV. MLG can't really vouch for you either since they don't seem to be sure about it yet either.
On December 15 2011 01:56 MLG_Lee wrote: Folks, we're just becoming aware of the decision from GSL. We don't have all the facts yet and are investigating.
Apparently there is a need to argue since random people like you think they know everything when the most-informed authorities are saying a different message.
Do you think GOM should have done anything to correct the widely held belief that naniwa was qualified for GSL code S? Should they have informed the player, who thought he was qualified for code S, and who established himself in Korea thinking he was gonna play in code S, that he was not secured a spot? Is it not extremely thoughtless (and I dare say, unprofessional) not to inform anyone of the changes in the system of qualification?
On December 15 2011 04:32 MayorITC wrote: Naniwa NEVER had a Code S spot.
Please stop using the terms revoke, qualified, or anything else that insinuates he has/had a Code S spot. He was considered as a candidate for one of the two Code S foreigner invites.
We have two different sources, that say otherwise. One is Mr. Chae himself. You're wrong.
On December 15 2011 04:32 MayorITC wrote: Naniwa NEVER had a Code S spot.
Please stop using the terms revoke, qualified, or anything else that insinuates he has/had a Code S spot. He was considered as a candidate for one of the two Code S foreigner invites.
Actually MLG is looking into it.
GOM doesn't owe Naniwa anything. But it does owe MLG its Code S spot. If anyone has a right to be angry, it's MLG, because GOM just broke their contractual agreement to take MLG's Top Non-Code S player into Code S (provided he or she is Top 3).
On December 15 2011 04:26 Peleus wrote: God I can't believe how retarded some TL users are being about this.
a) Naniwa clearly deliberately threw the game. Right or wrong aside can we all at least agree on that? Sending 7 probes to your base is not going to win, I know it, you know it, a silver leaguer knows it.
how do you know that naniwa knew that as well at that time?? maybe he honestly thought that he can somewhat surprise nestea and win ... who knows
is there a rule for that? or you just think it's not right to do that?
are we gonna restrict the way how players play their games? what's next? no attacks before 4min mark? it's really thin ice we are now on ....
Loss for GOM. Bad manner gives exposure and viewers. How many would have tuned in after this for Naniwas next GSL games? It would have been a great storyline. A feud is something SC2 lacks and desperately needs.
GOM is running an entertainment company that gets money from people seeing interesting and entertaining games (coincidentally played by the worlds best players). NaNiwa is sitting in a house practicing for 12 hours daily. He does this because organizations like GOM arrange tournaments with real prize money and lots of viewers so the sport as a whole can get exposure. This exposure is in various ways translated into cash witch is what this is really all about. GOM has certain standards for the quality of entertainment they present to the viewers. Obviously they are going to protect their own product furiously, if they didn't they would not be where they are today. Dronerushing is obviously not part of the GOM-experience and as such GOM has to do something to guarantee that it won't be part of their prime product(code s).
Whether NaNiwa or anyone else likes it or not he is not just a pro-gamer he is also an entertainer. Having a bad day and giving it your bare minimum is alright. Not trying at all is a completely different matter. NaNiwa is where he is thanks to people like the ones running GOM. Ignoring that work by not bothering to spend less than 10 minutes to create a reasonably interesting game for people to watch is unprofessional. Not as an SC2pro(because his work was done for that day), but as an entertainer.
What Naniwa did was not the right thing to do, but are there any rules against it? How can GSL go back on their agreement with MLG to award the highest placing contender at an MLG with a code S spot without some kind of clause or ruling that everyone was aware of beforehand?
If there were such a rule or agreement then this is entirely appropriate, but by the sounds of things there wasn't, and if I were Naniwa or Quantic, I would be outraged and frustrated at GOM for this. Seems very unprofessional to me, and I hope someone clears this up.
I don't understand why, people are defending him for acting in such a way and trying to justified the game mean nothing....The game does mean something to the viewers and the fans of Naniwa and Nestea. People need to understand this is a business of entertainment and GOM wanna put out great content for their viewers and E-Sport to grow. I have to agree with the punishment, only caring for your own personal feeling and disregard your jobs is truly unprofessional.
Caltu wrote: The competition in question has yet to start. Its not like its the Ro4 and they are deciding to drop them. Maybe then its alot more questionable
I was refering to GSL as a whole, not a specific season. Basicly it boils down to this:
Either an organisation like GOM has something akin to rule of law, where known rules and pronciples are applied, or it makes stuff up as it goes along, in which case it isn't really a legitimate competion.
I personally think its all about being the top competition in the world. They want it to be about the top and most "classy" league in the world. I will always remember moments likes Nestea under confetti, MMA at Blizzcon. If they have a feeling the person is in it for money rather than prestige [The main reason for this] They can hold that right. Like a classy golf club
On December 15 2011 04:26 Peleus wrote: God I can't believe how retarded some TL users are being about this.
a) Naniwa clearly deliberately threw the game. Right or wrong aside can we all at least agree on that? Sending 7 probes to your base is not going to win, I know it, you know it, a silver leaguer knows it.
how do you know that naniwa knew that as well at that time?? maybe he honestly thought that he can somewhat surprise nestea and win ... who knows
is there a rule for that? or you just think it's not right to do that?
are we gonna restrict the way how players play their games? what's next? no attacks before 4min mark? it's really thin ice we are now on ....
Give Naniwa some credit, he is not in the lower part of bronze league. He knows you cannot win with by a moving all your probes into your opponents base with your mouse without using any micro if your opponent is a progamer. You can dispute plenty of things, but you cannot dispute that Nani knew he couldn't win by doing that.
On December 15 2011 04:09 ShepherdC wrote: I'm sorry, but am I missing something? It seems like this statement is still calling Naniwa an amateur. Anyone with even a modicum of skill at understanding diplomatic language recognizes that this is a punishment, and Mr. Chae is calling Naniwa an unprofessional money hunter in his inference that because Naniwa didn't have an opportunity to make money he didn't play to win a match.
What's more, Mr. Chae is claiming that pro-gamers entire vocation should be for the victory (merits will be ignored). I have to ask what victory when you're unprofessional tournament yields nothing games? The idea that every match should be played to win is ridiculous. You often play a fast match where you have poor odds (due to opponent, map, etc) to save energy for later matches. Hell, players ALLL the time GG out of a game that is by no means over because they are too far down in position. (And I don't mean dramatically like Idra, everyone does it) The only dishonor here is GOM for putting together a tournament that would put players in such unfortunate positions.
Tournament format does not matter!! Being put in these situations does not matter!! If your a progamer and your put in any situation regarding your game you should ACT like a professional, suck it up, focus on the game you are currently playing and play it. The difference between pros and naniwa is pros don't let emotions run them down so badly that they just GIVE UP COMPLETELY. Seriously what is that? Giving up while being televised, in front of thousands is what you want in a person who calls himself a professional? Man im seriously losing hope in our foreigner community if we justify GIVING UP in our players. WHAT A DISGRACE.
It's really sad seeing people condemn others in such a way, and trying to force their opinions onto them. Although I personally disagree with the decision, GomTV can do whatever they want, with their tournament, and anyone else can either like it, or not, but who are you, to tell other people how they should live their lifes? Diversity in thinking and acting of different people should be respected...
On December 15 2011 04:32 MayorITC wrote: Naniwa NEVER had a Code S spot.
Please stop using the terms revoke, qualified, or anything else that insinuates he has/had a Code S spot. He was considered as a candidate for one of the two Code S foreigner invites.
Actually MLG is looking into it.
GOM doesn't owe Naniwa anything. But it does owe MLG its Code S spot. If anyone has a right to be angry, it's MLG, because GOM just broke their contractual agreement to take MLG's Top Non-Code S player into Code S (provided he or she is Top 3).
Yes, I'm the one that brought it fucking attention that MLG is looking into it in this thread.
And as of yet, they haven't stated that GomTV violated the contract. So no, GomTV doesn't owe MLG anything (as of yet).
On December 15 2011 04:32 MayorITC wrote: Naniwa NEVER had a Code S spot.
Please stop using the terms revoke, qualified, or anything else that insinuates he has/had a Code S spot. He was considered as a candidate for one of the two Code S foreigner invites.
We have two different sources, that say otherwise. One is Mr. Chae himself. You're wrong.
Please enlighten me as to who the other source is that states that I'm wrong. Because MLG hasn't gone against Mr. Chae's statement.
On December 15 2011 04:19 paulinepain wrote: Naniwa behavior is not really a source of good income for GOM I have to admit , it's a decision that at least will not make them lose money. We shouldn't talk too much about moral and value in a scene that is now fully powered by money.
I'm pretty sure the foreign viewership has a bigger part in keeping GOM running compared to the korean viewership, but that would just be a guess. If anything events like these make GSL more exciting for foreign viewers, not that i would want this to happen a lot but still. Something had to change from this but removing naniwa without giving him a warning was a bad move. GSL may be in Korea but its huge fan base is outside of it and it bugs me that they can do stuff like this, they could have handled this situation much more professionally.
On December 15 2011 04:34 bananafone wrote: GOM is running an entertainment company that gets money from people seeing interesting and entertaining games (coincidentally played by the worlds best players). NaNiwa is sitting in a house practicing for 12 hours daily. He does this because organizations like GOM arrange tournaments with real prize money and lots of viewers so the sport as a whole can get exposure. This exposure is in various ways translated into cash witch is what this is really all about. GOM has certain standards for the quality of entertainment they present to the viewers. Obviously they are going to protect their own product furiously, if they didn't they would not be where they are today. Dronerushing is obviously not part of the GOM-experience and as such GOM has to do something to guarantee that it won't be part of their prime product(code s).
Whether NaNiwa or anyone else likes it or not he is not just a pro-gamer he is also an entertainer. Having a bad day and giving it your bare minimum is alright. Not trying at all is a completely different matter. NaNiwa is where he is thanks to people like the ones running GOM. Ignoring that work by not bothering to spend less than 10 minutes to create a reasonably interesting game for people to watch is unprofessional. Not as an SC2pro(because his work was done for that day), but as an entertainer.
if they crave so much for broadcasted games, why they skip meaningless matches in Up&Down groups? shouldn't they have skipped this one also then?
On December 15 2011 04:33 dib wrote: as long as he isnt in code s its all good. he doesnt deserve it.
Ah, so skill doesn't matter to you, just their moral compass and reputation.
Well... this is not a problem of skill, but just to address the point. Nani has failed many times to qualify through Code A, even when that seed was given freely. So no, he hasn't shown Code S level, despite doing well in MLG.
On December 15 2011 04:34 opticalza wrote: I am really confused.
What Naniwa did was not the right thing to do, but are there any rules against it? How can GSL go back on their agreement with MLG to award the highest placing contender at an MLG with a code S spot without some kind of clause or ruling that everyone was aware of beforehand?
If there were such a rule or agreement then this is entirely appropriate, but by the sounds of things there wasn't, and if I were Naniwa or Quantic, I would be outraged and frustrated at GOM for this. Seems very unprofessional to me, and I hope someone clears this up.
What he did was not the right thing to do in a country where that is looked down on and by what he did I don't mean worker rush I mean not even attempting to play a game and be a professional.
Also providence didn't award him a code S spot for some reason. He was being considered for a code S spot by being in the blizzard cup and then they decided to take that back and give it to IdrA and Sen
On December 15 2011 04:35 Teriyaki-Boy wrote: I don't understand why, people are defending him for acting in such a way and trying to justified the game mean nothing....The game does mean something to the viewers and the fans of Naniwa and Nestea. People need to understand this is a business of entertainment and GOM wanna put out great content for their viewers and E-Sport to grow. I have to agree with the punishment, only caring for your own personal feeling and disregard your jobs is truly unprofessional.
I'll try this again:
You don't have to think naniwar was right to think GOM is wrong. Naniwar acted stupid.
GOM in return acted highhanded and unjust by handing out a severe punishment not covered by their own rules for said stupid behaviour.
On December 15 2011 04:32 MayorITC wrote: Naniwa NEVER had a Code S spot.
Please stop using the terms revoke, qualified, or anything else that insinuates he has/had a Code S spot. He was considered as a candidate for one of the two Code S foreigner invites.
Actually MLG is looking into it.
GOM doesn't owe Naniwa anything. But it does owe MLG its Code S spot. If anyone has a right to be angry, it's MLG, because GOM just broke their contractual agreement to take MLG's Top Non-Code S player into Code S (provided he or she is Top 3).
Yes, I'm the one that brought it fucking attention that MLG is looking into it in this thread.
And as of yet, they haven't stated that GomTV violated the contract. So no, GomTV doesn't owe MLG anything (as of yet).
On December 15 2011 04:32 MayorITC wrote: Naniwa NEVER had a Code S spot.
Please stop using the terms revoke, qualified, or anything else that insinuates he has/had a Code S spot. He was considered as a candidate for one of the two Code S foreigner invites.
We have two different sources, that say otherwise. One is Mr. Chae himself. You're wrong.
Please enlighten me as to who the other source is that states that I'm wrong. Because MLG hasn't gone against Mr. Chae's statement.
Just read the first post in this thread?
It clearly says, that Naniwa had the spot, but it was taken away.
On December 15 2011 04:34 bananafone wrote: GOM is running an entertainment company that gets money from people seeing interesting and entertaining games (coincidentally played by the worlds best players). NaNiwa is sitting in a house practicing for 12 hours daily. He does this because organizations like GOM arrange tournaments with real prize money and lots of viewers so the sport as a whole can get exposure. This exposure is in various ways translated into cash witch is what this is really all about. GOM has certain standards for the quality of entertainment they present to the viewers. Obviously they are going to protect their own product furiously, if they didn't they would not be where they are today. Dronerushing is obviously not part of the GOM-experience and as such GOM has to do something to guarantee that it won't be part of their prime product(code s).
Whether NaNiwa or anyone else likes it or not he is not just a pro-gamer he is also an entertainer. Having a bad day and giving it your bare minimum is alright. Not trying at all is a completely different matter. NaNiwa is where he is thanks to people like the ones running GOM. Ignoring that work by not bothering to spend less than 10 minutes to create a reasonably interesting game for people to watch is unprofessional. Not as an SC2pro(because his work was done for that day), but as an entertainer.
if they crave so much for broadcasted games, why they skip meaningless matches in Up&Down groups? shouldn't they have skipped this one also then?
Difference between the most prestigious tourney of the year and a highly anticipated grudge match than UP and DOWN groups. People were extremely disappointed at the possibility that GOM skipped the match in the LR threads. I'm sure this sentiment rang true for most viewers.
what i would like to know is how MLG is going to handle this situation. as i understand the situation, naniwa earned the code s spot through his placement at a MLG event through the exchange program. if GOM now takes away that spot they are essentially breaching the agreement with MLG. the whole exchange program is kind of a joke anyways as it rarely benefits foreigners, but gives huge benefits to koreans in that most foreigners wouldnt take the GSL spot even if offered. and now, they are even taking away the spot from naniwa who actually wanted to take advantage of the exchange program.
although naniwa's conduct was displeasing to me (and many others), i think that it wasn't sufficient for GOM to take away something earned through the exchange program. and I think MLG should respond in kind.
note, i havent done extensive research on this, so i may be offbase.
On December 15 2011 04:32 MayorITC wrote: Naniwa NEVER had a Code S spot.
Please stop using the terms revoke, qualified, or anything else that insinuates he has/had a Code S spot. He was considered as a candidate for one of the two Code S foreigner invites.
Actually MLG is looking into it.
GOM doesn't owe Naniwa anything. But it does owe MLG its Code S spot. If anyone has a right to be angry, it's MLG, because GOM just broke their contractual agreement to take MLG's Top Non-Code S player into Code S (provided he or she is Top 3).
Yes, I'm the one that brought it fucking attention that MLG is looking into it in this thread.
And as of yet, they haven't stated that GomTV violated the contract. So no, GomTV doesn't owe MLG anything (as of yet).
On December 15 2011 04:33 Vardant wrote:
On December 15 2011 04:32 MayorITC wrote: Naniwa NEVER had a Code S spot.
Please stop using the terms revoke, qualified, or anything else that insinuates he has/had a Code S spot. He was considered as a candidate for one of the two Code S foreigner invites.
We have two different sources, that say otherwise. One is Mr. Chae himself. You're wrong.
Please enlighten me as to who the other source is that states that I'm wrong. Because MLG hasn't gone against Mr. Chae's statement.
Just read the first post in this thread?
It clearly says, that Naniwa had the spot, but it was taken away.
It doesn't explicitly state that the spot was contractual. He just said that Naniwa was given a spot, whether by GOM's choice or Naniwa's earning it in Providence and the exchange program is not clear from his sentence.
On December 15 2011 04:26 Peleus wrote: God I can't believe how retarded some TL users are being about this.
a) Naniwa clearly deliberately threw the game. Right or wrong aside can we all at least agree on that? Sending 7 probes to your base is not going to win, I know it, you know it, a silver leaguer knows it.
how do you know that naniwa knew that as well at that time?? maybe he honestly thought that he can somewhat surprise nestea and win ... who knows
is there a rule for that? or you just think it's not right to do that?
are we gonna restrict the way how players play their games? what's next? no attacks before 4min mark? it's really thin ice we are now on ....
Give Naniwa some credit, he is not in the lower part of bronze league. He knows you cannot win with by a moving all your probes into your opponents base with your mouse without using any micro if your opponent is a progamer. You can dispute plenty of things, but you cannot dispute that Nani knew he couldn't win by doing that.
yes, you are most likely right, but I believe in presumption of innocence
i don't think anybody's mentioned this, but the rule that was used to disqualify naniwa (of course, this is subject to translation issues) was "shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviors." do we have any reason to think that this would refer to in-game actions rather than, say, chat or ceremonies? has this rule ever been applied before and would naniwa have had any reason to think that it would have applied to this action? these are all things you need to take into consideration when you ask whether this is fair to naniwa and to mlg.
in my eyes this is clearly an arbitrary and capricious use of the rule and it's frankly unconscionable to treat players like this. fuck naniwa for throwing a game, sure, but i have serious doubts about it being against that rule, at least as stated in english.
On December 15 2011 04:33 dib wrote: as long as he isnt in code s its all good. he doesnt deserve it.
Ah, so skill doesn't matter to you, just their moral compass and reputation.
So going 0-10 in GSL code A shows you that naniwa has the skill that deserves code s?
Even if he was 0-150000000000000000000000000000000000 it wouldn't matter, he STILL earned his spot through MLG and you know it, his GSL score doesn't matter.
On December 15 2011 04:32 MayorITC wrote: Naniwa NEVER had a Code S spot.
Please stop using the terms revoke, qualified, or anything else that insinuates he has/had a Code S spot. He was considered as a candidate for one of the two Code S foreigner invites.
Actually MLG is looking into it.
GOM doesn't owe Naniwa anything. But it does owe MLG its Code S spot. If anyone has a right to be angry, it's MLG, because GOM just broke their contractual agreement to take MLG's Top Non-Code S player into Code S (provided he or she is Top 3).
Yes, I'm the one that brought it fucking attention that MLG is looking into it in this thread.
And as of yet, they haven't stated that GomTV violated the contract. So no, GomTV doesn't owe MLG anything (as of yet).
On December 15 2011 04:33 Vardant wrote:
On December 15 2011 04:32 MayorITC wrote: Naniwa NEVER had a Code S spot.
Please stop using the terms revoke, qualified, or anything else that insinuates he has/had a Code S spot. He was considered as a candidate for one of the two Code S foreigner invites.
We have two different sources, that say otherwise. One is Mr. Chae himself. You're wrong.
Please enlighten me as to who the other source is that states that I'm wrong. Because MLG hasn't gone against Mr. Chae's statement.
Just read the first post in this thread?
It clearly says, that Naniwa had the spot, but it was taken away.
It doesn't explicitly state that the spot was contractual. He just said that Naniwa was given a spot, whether by GOM's choice or Naniwa's earning it in Providence and the exchange program is not clear from his sentence.
That doesn't matter, because MayorITC is claiming, that he NEVER had one.
Right, obviously everything is OK now since Chae didnt call NaNiwa a money-hungry non-pro player directly, he simply implied all that. A world of difference indeed.
GOMTV get extra respect for having IdrA invited after Chae telling us how true Pros should play Starcraft for the enjoyment of their fans and not for the money
Idra, of all people, mannered and respectful and not doing it for the money. Great with his fans as well
We've got 2 players and a match for...uh.. yeah nothing.
The people who have watched the series are complaining that they 'wasted their time' wating for it. I'm 100% sure that they would still complain if Nani just 2gate proxied or did any of the other cheese/all in builds that would end the game in a matter of minutes.
If Naniwa's win/loss would have any impact on the group standings I would support the decision to punish him (and saying its not a punishment is bullshit) for throwing the game.
Either way the tournament standings are left untouched and the viewers are unhappy.
As much as Naniwa acted in an unprofessional manner I think GOM is the party who made the mistake in the first place and Mr Chae should be the one to apologise to the viewers for the whole situation.
After all they made him play a game with absolutely nothing on the line. Why would anyone try hard to play in such a game, especially considering the fact that he really wanted to beat Nestea in a game that mattered and most likely wants to save the strategy he prepared for later...
Why devise a format that makes for meaningless games? If they can't admit their mistake they are the ones acting unprofessionally.
On December 15 2011 04:19 mordk wrote: I'm pretty sure in english both definitions of the word "professional" exist right? (As in, thing you dedicate yourself to in order to make money, and thing you put your soul, heart, etc because you love it and it involves a corresponding behaviour). I'd find it kinda sad if English speakers in general though being a pro at anything is only about money. And weird.
saying money is involved is quite different from saying it's only about money. trying to ignore that money is a large motivation is the point i think ... you have to note that money is what makes the dedication possible. you have to get a job to pay the bills otherwise and then you cant put as much soul into it ...
On December 15 2011 04:35 Teriyaki-Boy wrote: I don't understand why, people are defending him for acting in such a way and trying to justified the game mean nothing....The game does mean something to the viewers and the fans of Naniwa and Nestea. People need to understand this is a business of entertainment and GOM wanna put out great content for their viewers and E-Sport to grow. I have to agree with the punishment, only caring for your own personal feeling and disregard your jobs is truly unprofessional.
To some viewers. To others, such as myself, it's a meaningless game, a consequence of a bad tournament format, that is being played out as show for the sake of the show. You're asking the players to fake it. That is almost impossible, as can be seen in how Hero didn't play to win in his match against DRG on monday, and almost always results in lackluster games, if not in trouble as we've seen here. It means you have to set a rather arbitrary rule for how much of an effort you're supposed to make. I wan't to see meaningful competition, matches that matter, not something akin to a wrestling match.
On December 15 2011 04:34 bananafone wrote: GOM is running an entertainment company that gets money from people seeing interesting and entertaining games (coincidentally played by the worlds best players). NaNiwa is sitting in a house practicing for 12 hours daily. He does this because organizations like GOM arrange tournaments with real prize money and lots of viewers so the sport as a whole can get exposure. This exposure is in various ways translated into cash witch is what this is really all about. GOM has certain standards for the quality of entertainment they present to the viewers. Obviously they are going to protect their own product furiously, if they didn't they would not be where they are today. Dronerushing is obviously not part of the GOM-experience and as such GOM has to do something to guarantee that it won't be part of their prime product(code s).
Whether NaNiwa or anyone else likes it or not he is not just a pro-gamer he is also an entertainer. Having a bad day and giving it your bare minimum is alright. Not trying at all is a completely different matter. NaNiwa is where he is thanks to people like the ones running GOM. Ignoring that work by not bothering to spend less than 10 minutes to create a reasonably interesting game for people to watch is unprofessional. Not as an SC2pro(because his work was done for that day), but as an entertainer.
if they crave so much for broadcasted games, why they skip meaningless matches in Up&Down groups? shouldn't they have skipped this one also then?
Difference between the most prestigious tourney of the year and a highly anticipated grudge match than UP and DOWN groups. People were extremely disappointed at the possibility that GOM skipped the match in the LR threads. I'm sure this sentiment rang true for most viewers.
yeah, right ... so if naniwa had 4gated, everyone would have been happy .... really cool ....
Ok this is seriously getting more and more retarded by the hour? Cant koreans make a press release that makes sense? Or can some1 that speaks proper Korean translate it?
On December 15 2011 04:33 dib wrote: as long as he isnt in code s its all good. he doesnt deserve it.
Ah, so skill doesn't matter to you, just their moral compass and reputation.
So going 0-10 in GSL code A shows you that naniwa has the skill that deserves code s?
the 0-10 is a bit deceptive however, he didn't play bad in the slightest at all in the three games. He played really well, he just needs to mix up his openings a bit. Once he survives the early game he's a beast.
On December 15 2011 04:19 mordk wrote: I'm pretty sure in english both definitions of the word "professional" exist right? (As in, thing you dedicate yourself to in order to make money, and thing you put your soul, heart, etc because you love it and it involves a corresponding behaviour). I'd find it kinda sad if English speakers in general though being a pro at anything is only about money. And weird.
saying money is involved is quite different from saying it's only about money. trying to ignore that money is a large motivation is the point i think ... you have to note that money is what makes the dedication possible. you have to get a job to pay the bills otherwise and then you cant put as much soul into it ...
i actually think this is a great insight into the korean progaming culture. they want kids who don't play for money. that way, they don't have to pay them very much.
the williams sisters campaigned for equal prize money for women and men in pro tennis but you don't see anyone calling them amateurs or money-grubbers.
As far as I know, what Gom is doing here is saying "We don't accept BM and throwing matches, no matter what." And yet it smacks of hypocrasy, taking it from one outspoken BM machine, and giving it to another (Idra), because as much as I love them both, they are quite similar in emotional reaction to certain things. I think that if this is the case, Mr. Chae is shooting himself in the face. Idra has straight up refused to play games before because he didn't want to. What will happen when he's forced to play a game that doesn't matter?
On December 15 2011 04:34 opticalza wrote: I am really confused.
What Naniwa did was not the right thing to do, but are there any rules against it? How can GSL go back on their agreement with MLG to award the highest placing contender at an MLG with a code S spot without some kind of clause or ruling that everyone was aware of beforehand?
If there were such a rule or agreement then this is entirely appropriate, but by the sounds of things there wasn't, and if I were Naniwa or Quantic, I would be outraged and frustrated at GOM for this. Seems very unprofessional to me, and I hope someone clears this up.
Well hey it's not cheating if I don't get caught right?
Can we all get past this mentality and have a little bit of dignity?
"We didn't do the right thing and we're being punished for it, WHAT THE HELL?!" Does that at all sound appropriate? Is it unprofessional to excuse the wrong thing to do or is it unprofessional to do the wrong thing?
Oh and btw who cares what they believe thats their own opinion. You cant remove some1 from a tournament for having a different philosophy. And no rules were borken.
We should just be able to move forward from this and see what Naniwa decides to do? Is he going to stay in Korea and fight for a code A spot, try to get code S the hard way and prove he can grow as a pro gamer
On December 15 2011 04:33 dib wrote: as long as he isnt in code s its all good. he doesnt deserve it.
Ah, so skill doesn't matter to you, just their moral compass and reputation.
So going 0-10 in GSL code A shows you that naniwa has the skill that deserves code s?
Even if he was 0-150000000000000000000000000000000000 it wouldn't matter, he STILL earned his spot through MLG and you know it, his GSL score doesn't matter.
I was just pointing out that his skill level isn't code S (with moral compass and reputation aside) Yes he worked hard and got an INVITATION to code S. And by being unprofessional he lost that opportunity.
i think naniwa should have been warned and should receive a fine like the 850$ he receives for participating in the tournment...
No side is correct on this , this is why everybody is getting mad ...
Gomtv deserves to punish Naniwa , he just sat there and with one hand and A-moved... but because the match changed nothing, Naniwa with his Bad Boy style did this thinking it was funny or to punish GOM for making him play that game without the need to do it..
Gom is wrong for revoking his code s and the rules should be more clear to everyone..
Naniwa is wrong too , because of the attitude he showed... just that..
"We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. We think that pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that. We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not to Johan Lucchesi from Sweden, who plays the game well."
I don't want to see any Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa that isn't Johan Lucchesi from Sweden. It's a meaningless, shallow facade of an automaton playing a game for money passed off as "professionalism". An automaton delivering games like a coffee automat delivers us a coffee.That's a highly uninspiring and dull statement from GOM.
I want to see Johan Lucchesi from Sweden doing his absolute best for passion, for the game, for the win, for being the very best because that's what he wants - and it is what he wants. That's why he is a progamer.
It's NOT A FUCKING JOB. It's passion first. It's the game first and foremost. It's the community, the competition, the fame, the appreciation, the respect, the excitement, the inspiration, the awe, the meaning. THEN, after this, it's money and job. NOT the other way around.
I cannot emphesize how brainwashed some people out there seem to be. You just completely forget what e-sports is, or at least should be, all about and why it is what it is now. Why some people want a progamer to play a meaningless game as if it wasn't meaningless ? How can you expect him to play his best in such a game ?
Why is this such an issue anyways ? PROGAMERS are the ones who create e-sports foremost. Without them, there is no e-sport. Automatons deliver games for money. Progamers do their absolute best to win because they want to win. Not because someone tells them they have to try their best to win here and there because fans ordered a game, we set a schedule and a game needs to be delivered so they get money for that.
To punish a progamer like that, over such aTRIVIAL issue, is to harm E-sports. It's more like mindlessly punishing a "child" for a minor disobedience, not to mention when the child is basicly correct, just to vainly display a violent enforcment of obedience.
Do you really want progamers to be like, let's say waiters in a restaurant bringing you cheeseburgers and fries ?
On December 15 2011 04:41 migosore wrote: Why devise a format that makes for meaningless games? If they can't admit their mistake they are the ones acting unprofessionally.
Presumably because people wanted to see Nani vs. Nestea. I, and I'm sure I'm not alone, knew that they were going to play and that was what pushed me over the edge to buy a ticket. If I don't think players are going to make the slightest attempt to play a match, I will be less likely to buy a ticket to special tournaments such as these.
On December 15 2011 04:34 bananafone wrote: GOM is running an entertainment company that gets money from people seeing interesting and entertaining games (coincidentally played by the worlds best players). NaNiwa is sitting in a house practicing for 12 hours daily. He does this because organizations like GOM arrange tournaments with real prize money and lots of viewers so the sport as a whole can get exposure. This exposure is in various ways translated into cash witch is what this is really all about. GOM has certain standards for the quality of entertainment they present to the viewers. Obviously they are going to protect their own product furiously, if they didn't they would not be where they are today. Dronerushing is obviously not part of the GOM-experience and as such GOM has to do something to guarantee that it won't be part of their prime product(code s).
Whether NaNiwa or anyone else likes it or not he is not just a pro-gamer he is also an entertainer. Having a bad day and giving it your bare minimum is alright. Not trying at all is a completely different matter. NaNiwa is where he is thanks to people like the ones running GOM. Ignoring that work by not bothering to spend less than 10 minutes to create a reasonably interesting game for people to watch is unprofessional. Not as an SC2pro(because his work was done for that day), but as an entertainer.
if they crave so much for broadcasted games, why they skip meaningless matches in Up&Down groups? shouldn't they have skipped this one also then?
Difference between the most prestigious tourney of the year and a highly anticipated grudge match than UP and DOWN groups. People were extremely disappointed at the possibility that GOM skipped the match in the LR threads. I'm sure this sentiment rang true for most viewers.
yeah, right ... so if naniwa had 4gated, everyone would have been happy .... really cool ....
Ya because 4 gate actually has a possibility in winning and shows that he at least gives a shit to play a real match.
On December 15 2011 04:41 SKYFISH_ wrote: Right, obviously everything is OK now since Chae didnt call NaNiwa a money-hungry non-pro player directly, he simply implied all that. A world of difference indeed.
GOMTV get extra respect for having IdrA invited after Chae telling us how true Pros should play Starcraft for the enjoyment of their fans and not for the money
Idra, of all people, mannered and respectful and not doing it for the money. Great with his fans as well
apolgize for playing that race! they sure did pick a more mannered player for GSL that has never quit a won game.
i still feel that people grasping for this "earned his spot" from MLG is crazy. Where did Providence get included in the LXG with Gom? No korean players were exchanged there, all of the koreans who came out came on their own dime, even seeded players. Why do you think MLG_Lee even posted that he'd investigate it further, because it WASN'T a clearcut standard LXG between MLG and Gom, so continue spouting off that Naniwa "EARNED" his spot, when in actuality, we're not even sure if there was such a deal in place for the tournament in which he took 2nd place behind an already code S korean.
God, seeing all of these threads has angered me to no end, the amount of misinformation, the random bias, the constant spout offs of the peanut gallery with NO basis or even all of the facts, is mind boggling. I didn't want to post in any of them, but seeing this one, with the clarification from Mr. Chae, just further reinforces that WE DONT HAVE ALL THE FACTS, and the post that Naniwa is not BANNED, is another clarification. ALL OF THIS IS ALL JUST MISTRANSLATIONS AND MISCOMMUNICATION AT THIS POINT. Everyone needs to STFU about what is "earned" or "fact" until we are given them BY sources.
I am waiting for an official statement since... i dont know quite some time... I think it is about time that gom, mlg, or whoever knows what is happening gives an official statement. We can type as much as we want, we dont know what is going on.
Please for the sake of our keyboards give us some informations... please
On December 15 2011 04:40 o[twist] wrote: i don't think anybody's mentioned this, but the rule that was used to disqualify naniwa (of course, this is subject to translation issues) was "shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviors." do we have any reason to think that this would refer to in-game actions rather than, say, chat or ceremonies? has this rule ever been applied before and would naniwa have had any reason to think that it would have applied to this action? these are all things you need to take into consideration when you ask whether this is fair to naniwa and to mlg.
in my eyes this is clearly an arbitrary and capricious use of the rule and it's frankly unconscionable to treat players like this. fuck naniwa for throwing a game, sure, but i have serious doubts about it being against that rule, at least as stated in english.
Did you read the OP at all?
"There was NO mention of the conduct rule, it being a "punishment", or that he is "an amateur prize money hunter.""
No mention of any rule being involved, just that they don't consider him professional enough to be handed a spot for Code S.
"We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. We think that pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that. We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not to Johan Lucchesi from Sweden, who plays the game well."
I don't want to see any Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa that isn't Johan Lucchesi from Sweden. It's a meaningless, shallow facade of an automaton playing a game for money passed off as "professionalism". An automaton delivering games like a coffee automat delivers us a coffee.That's a highly uninspiring and dull statement from GOM.
I want to see Johan Lucchesi from Sweden doing his absolute best for passion, for the game, for the win, for being the very best because that's what he wants - and it is what he wants. That's why he is a progamer.
It's NOT A FUCKING JOB. It's passion first. It's the game first and foremost. It's the community, the competition, the fame, the appreciation, the respect, the excitement, the inspiration, the awe, the meaning. THEN, after this, it's money and job. NOT the other way around.
I cannot emphesize how brainwashed some people out there seem to be. You just completely forget what e-sports is, or at least should be, all about and why it is what it is now. Do you really want progamers to be like, let's say waiters in a restaurant, bringing you cheeseburgers and fries ?
E-sport, at least in term of starcraft, actually originated in Korea. Their standards of professionalism is different from your view. Just respect their view and agree to disagree.
"We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. We think that pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that. We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not to Johan Lucchesi from Sweden, who plays the game well."
I don't want to see any Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa that isn't Johan Lucchesi from Sweden. It's a meaningless, shallow facade of an automaton playing a game for money passed off as "professionalism". An automaton delivering games like a coffee automat delivers us a coffee.That's a highly uninspiring and dull statement from GOM.
I want to see Johan Lucchesi from Sweden doing his absolute best for passion, for the game, for the win, for being the very best because that's what he wants - and it is what he wants. That's why he is a progamer.
It's NOT A FUCKING JOB. It's passion first. It's the game first and foremost. It's the community, the competition, the fame, the appreciation, the respect, the excitement, the inspiration, the awe, the meaning. THEN, after this, it's money and job. NOT the other way around.
I cannot emphesize how brainwashed some people out there seem to be. You just completely forget what e-sports is, or at least should be, all about and why it is what it is now. Do you really want progamers to be like, let's say waiters in a restaurant, bringing you cheeseburgers and fries ?
i want progamers to be well fucking compensated. yes. is that so strange?
I've yet to hear a clear and coherent argument stating why Gom is wrong removing a player that disrespected them from their tourny. I think some here need to tone down the fanboy rage/national pride and just accept that he broke cultural norms for a serious sport and got reprimanded for it. It's really that simple. If he's code S worthy he'll do well in up/downs and it wont matter anyway.
I just think gom should stop with the random invites and adopt a clear system . If you wantcto be the best leauge justckoreans arent enough people must know you deserved to be there and exactly what it takes to maintain it. Sure dq nani but then give the spot to haypro.
I posted a comment in the SOTG thread concerning this but I wanted to expand on it. Has anybody thought about this in terms of the Sponsors ? I am not sure how a tourney pitches their event to sponsors, but in the case of Blizzard Cup: -speculation- maybe they had it setup to play all possible matches because all of the people attending were some of the best in the world, maybe that is how they pitched it to the sponsors ?
If I was a sponsor who bought into the tourney under the impression it was a set amount of games all between well known players, and one of the players just dumped a match I would feel shorted...
this was not some open bracket, these were the top players in the world... there should be a level of respect from everyone involved, for everyone involved.
If there were no repercussions for said player, then the next time the Tourney asked me to sponsor,. I would be more hesitant... those games would not be so guaranteed.
it is hard to be a progamer if there is no money available. I think performing and entertaining professionally are necessary (evils?) in order to attract and maintain real sponsors..
I think it is actually pretty easy to understand, they practically told that he is now a professional, he is not only playing the game under his name and under his "selfish" reasons. They reminded him, that he is playing for the organisation and thus is not responsible only for himself. and btw: progaming is a job in korea and when in korea we are bound by their rules eventhough we might not like it.
Oh and the rule "you need to act as a gamer". What defines a gamer? Based on this rule they can remove anyone for whatever reason. We cant have things like this and talk about PROFESSIONALISM.
On December 15 2011 04:33 dib wrote: as long as he isnt in code s its all good. he doesnt deserve it.
Ah, so skill doesn't matter to you, just their moral compass and reputation.
So going 0-10 in GSL code A shows you that naniwa has the skill that deserves code s?
Second place at Providence and winner of MLG Global over Nestea and MVP doesn't deserve it?
Vastly different tournament process. He does well in tournies that take place over a few days and you can't forsee your opponent. He has proven he doesn't do well in situations where you know your opponent well in advance and those opponents can study you to death.
Since Code S doesn't follow MLGs format, any success he had there shouldn't be proof of him doing well in GSL.
On December 15 2011 04:40 o[twist] wrote: i don't think anybody's mentioned this, but the rule that was used to disqualify naniwa (of course, this is subject to translation issues) was "shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviors." do we have any reason to think that this would refer to in-game actions rather than, say, chat or ceremonies? has this rule ever been applied before and would naniwa have had any reason to think that it would have applied to this action? these are all things you need to take into consideration when you ask whether this is fair to naniwa and to mlg.
in my eyes this is clearly an arbitrary and capricious use of the rule and it's frankly unconscionable to treat players like this. fuck naniwa for throwing a game, sure, but i have serious doubts about it being against that rule, at least as stated in english.
Did you read the OP at all?
"There was NO mention of the conduct rule, it being a "punishment", or that he is "an amateur prize money hunter.""
No mention of any rule being involved, just that they don't consider him professional enough to be handed a spot for Code S.
but according to most of what i've read, he already had the spot.
i guess i might be talking out of my ass to a certain extent. is there any documentation on how the spots were assigned? any press releases or anything suggesting he already had the spot? anything public about the link between mlg and gsl? if he has the spot, he has the spot, and they NEED to have SOME rule in order to take it away.
On December 15 2011 04:47 careohx wrote: Oh and the rule "you need to act as a gamer". What defines a gamer? Based on this rule they can remove anyone for whatever reason. We cant have things like this and talk about PROFESSIONALISM.
Uhh you don't even need that. Mutual respect and the lowest level of profesionalism (aka not what Naniwa did) would never have a problem with GOM.
On December 15 2011 04:43 DYEAlabaster wrote: As far as I know, what Gom is doing here is saying "We don't accept BM and throwing matches, no matter what." And yet it smacks of hypocrasy, taking it from one outspoken BM machine, and giving it to another (Idra), because as much as I love them both, they are quite similar in emotional reaction to certain things. I think that if this is the case, Mr. Chae is shooting himself in the face. Idra has straight up refused to play games before because he didn't want to. What will happen when he's forced to play a game that doesn't matter?
Idra really isn't much of an outspoken BM machine recently, he gets emotional for sure, but at this point his "bm" is more of a gimmicky stage persona that has stuck with him as his growth as a player rather than legitimate BM. The inability for this community to move on from stereotypes is frightening..
On December 15 2011 04:46 Hubris wrote: I've yet to hear a clear and coherent argument stating why Gom is wrong removing a player that disrespected them from their tourny. I think some here need to tone down the fanboy rage/national pride and just accept that he broke cultural norms for a serious sport and got reprimanded for it. It's really that simple. If he's code S worthy he'll do well in up/downs and it wont matter anyway.
name another sport where you can be thrown out for "breaking cultural norms" with no specific rule
저희가 시드를 줬던것은 퀀틱 게이밍의 프로토스 프로게이머 나니와 선수였지 스웨덴에서 게임을 잘하는 청년 요한 루세시는 아니였습니다.
the translation should be as follows for this line : We gave the seed to the Quantic Gaming's Protoss Player and NOT to the immature Swedish Player Johan Lucchesi who is good at the game.
You completely ignored the word 청년 in your translation which is the most important part in that statement. or what makes it very clear. From this, Mr.Chae is saying that Naniwa is very immature for what he did. and ultimately the person he gave the Code S seed to was simply a PRO PLAYER FROM QUANTIC GAMING and not the immature person that it turned out to be.
edit : the word 청년 in Korean means a teenager. and in this kind of context, the word can be used to describe the characteristics / attributes associated with a teenager . being immature
Respect and sportsmanship are extremely important in Korean culture and with Naniwa throwing a game like that is like slapping GOM in the face. You have to understand that this isn't a foreign event. GOM is the one that initially opened spots for foreign players to participate in GSL and other similar events in the first place. The punishment can be seen as harsh, but it was necessary so incidents like this won't happen again. GOM has all the rights to decide what is best for their tournaments.
On December 15 2011 04:04 Trsjnica wrote: This line of argument seems unreasonable to me. It is not that GOM is not honoring that promise, it is that Naniwa lost his spot due to outside actions.
I don't think you can reasonably argue that players should not be able to lose spots due to other actions. For example, if a player won MLG, but during the month before GSL, was caught cheating and fixing games for profit in NASL, Dreamhack, ladder, AND IEM-- they would surely lose their GSL Code S spot, and no one would complain.
Thus, this established that was all agree that at least *some actions* are sufficient to cause a player to lose a Code S spot, and that this is NOT an example of GOM not honoring their promise.
Rather, the argument here is really over whether Naniwa's actions were sufficient to justify the punishment that was given, and NOT whether GSL is honoring their promise re: MLG.
cheating and fixing games is breaking the law, this wasn't. i'm not an sc2 person but this is absolutely unfair. nfl teams "suck for luck." hell at the bnp paribas masters tennis tournament alex bogomolov jr. said "i don't want to be here" and almost retired without even having been injured. these sorts of things can result in some kind of fine or citation but never in somebody just saying "okay, we don't want you in the tournament anymore, even though you qualified under our rules, so we will simply replace you."
He did not qualified contractually, it was their decision to decide that his conduct was not worthy of a PRIVILEGE spot.
IT'S NOT A PRIVILEGE. Unless you clarify in advance that you can withdraw it any point without justification it's not a privilege. It can be an invitation, a promise but not a privilege.
A tournament has the right to deny anyone they deem unworthy. GOM has that rule written so they have the right to remove it. They also have complete justification in doing it, not like Naniwa was acting like an angel.
They probably have a legal right. They independently may or may not have a moral right. But there's always a nagging feeling that they are being somewhat arbitrary and that their invitations might be revoked unexpectedly.
Actually, I might even go back on what I said before. Maybe their invitation IS a privilege. Whether that's a good thing for GOM or not is another question.
I mean unless one conducts himself completely professionally but suffered the same fate as Naniwa, then we can prosecute GOM. It wasnt an arbitrary decision by any means.
For me it's not about prosecution. They are acting in their business interest and it's not like they are destroying rain-forests or displacing natives to get to their oil
It wasn't an arbitrary decision in the sense that few people agreed with how Naniwa acted. It WAS arbitrary in the sense that there was no clear provision against it and the severity of the decision surprised many people. GOM saying that they have a fuzzy code of conduct and their invitation depends on players following it just increases the uncertainty.
I mean, ok, Naniwa clearly acted outside this code. But it's not like they used this opportunity to clarify exactly what they expect and what the consequences are. Next time they try to invite a foreigner there's a good chance they'll ask for a contract.
I kind of agree with o[twist] that there's an underlying issue of using cultural values for power (and eventually for money, although there's not much of that as of yet). It happens in Sumo wrestling, baduk (go) and I believe in K-Pop too. It's not just an "asian" thing, it's happened in Women's Gymnastics in the US too and I'm sure many other sports. It certainly happened in Broodwar. In the end the responsibility lies with the players and their parent to decide if the sacrifices are worth it or not, or if there's any point in trying to fight against the system.
On December 15 2011 04:46 Hubris wrote: I've yet to hear a clear and coherent argument stating why Gom is wrong removing a player that disrespected them from their tourny. I think some here need to tone down the fanboy rage/national pride and just accept that he broke cultural norms for a serious sport and got reprimanded for it. It's really that simple. If he's code S worthy he'll do well in up/downs and it wont matter anyway.
name another sport where you can be thrown out for "breaking cultural norms" with no specific rule
Name a sport where you're allowed to flagrantly throw games? You're not allowed to throw games but it's usually hard to prove, but it's obvious in this case.
I always root for naniwa but he really needs to stop shitting on where he eats. its just tragic because he has expressed his desire to stay in korea for long term and he gets his seed and this happens =_= I hope he learns from this and not give up on his korean throne cuz this guy probably has the best chance out of all foreigners imo.
MORE IMPORTANTLY NANIWA PLEASE APOLOGIZE AND NOT FLAME MORE ABOUT THIS ISSUE.
On December 15 2011 04:35 Teriyaki-Boy wrote: I don't understand why, people are defending him for acting in such a way and trying to justified the game mean nothing....The game does mean something to the viewers and the fans of Naniwa and Nestea. People need to understand this is a business of entertainment and GOM wanna put out great content for their viewers and E-Sport to grow. I have to agree with the punishment, only caring for your own personal feeling and disregard your jobs is truly unprofessional.
To some viewers. To others, such as myself, it's a meaningless game, a consequence of a bad tournament format, that is being played out as show for the sake of the show. You're asking the players to fake it. That is almost impossible, as can be seen in how Hero didn't play to win in his match against DRG on monday, and almost always results in lackluster games, if not in trouble as we've seen here. It means you have to set a rather arbitrary rule for how much of an effort you're supposed to make. I wan't to see meaningful competition, matches that matter, not something akin to a wrestling match.
This...
I just dont understand that people would be satisfied if he did a half assed 4 gate... He knew he was out and oculdnt get exited over his last match.. And instead of accepting this and moving on people expect him to pretend playing for real just they can watch 2 demotivated pros pretending?
Nicely said Mr. Chae. Definitely agree that's how a pro gamer should act.
But going from that to denying him the Code S spot is quite harsh. Then again, what other option was there, a fine was not an option seeing as Naniwa didn't break any rules.
Sigh, after reading all previous threads and reddit posts, it seems they are punishing Nani and taking away his seed, it was already given to him, unlike how the other threads stated. If i was Idra or Sen I would feel reluctant to accept such a spot in GSL.
On December 15 2011 04:47 careohx wrote: Oh and the rule "you need to act as a gamer". What defines a gamer? Based on this rule they can remove anyone for whatever reason. We cant have things like this and talk about PROFESSIONALISM.
It means you try in your games and take on the responsibility of representing your team/sport/fans/sponsors by being a gamer and entertainer first, selfish money grubbing mentality second.
On December 15 2011 04:46 Hubris wrote: I've yet to hear a clear and coherent argument stating why Gom is wrong removing a player that disrespected them from their tourny. I think some here need to tone down the fanboy rage/national pride and just accept that he broke cultural norms for a serious sport and got reprimanded for it. It's really that simple. If he's code S worthy he'll do well in up/downs and it wont matter anyway.
name another sport where you can be thrown out for "breaking cultural norms" with no specific rule
He's not being thrown out of the sport, he's just not being given a Code S slot. If he earned the slot by qualifying (as every other Code S player does), that's one thing.
If he is being gifted a slot by GOM because they want to include more foreigners in their tournament, then they have the right to be selective about who they choose to invite.
On December 15 2011 04:34 bananafone wrote: GOM is running an entertainment company that gets money from people seeing interesting and entertaining games (coincidentally played by the worlds best players). NaNiwa is sitting in a house practicing for 12 hours daily. He does this because organizations like GOM arrange tournaments with real prize money and lots of viewers so the sport as a whole can get exposure. This exposure is in various ways translated into cash witch is what this is really all about. GOM has certain standards for the quality of entertainment they present to the viewers. Obviously they are going to protect their own product furiously, if they didn't they would not be where they are today. Dronerushing is obviously not part of the GOM-experience and as such GOM has to do something to guarantee that it won't be part of their prime product(code s).
Whether NaNiwa or anyone else likes it or not he is not just a pro-gamer he is also an entertainer. Having a bad day and giving it your bare minimum is alright. Not trying at all is a completely different matter. NaNiwa is where he is thanks to people like the ones running GOM. Ignoring that work by not bothering to spend less than 10 minutes to create a reasonably interesting game for people to watch is unprofessional. Not as an SC2pro(because his work was done for that day), but as an entertainer.
if they crave so much for broadcasted games, why they skip meaningless matches in Up&Down groups? shouldn't they have skipped this one also then?
Difference between the most prestigious tourney of the year and a highly anticipated grudge match than UP and DOWN groups. People were extremely disappointed at the possibility that GOM skipped the match in the LR threads. I'm sure this sentiment rang true for most viewers.
yeah, right ... so if naniwa had 4gated, everyone would have been happy .... really cool ....
Ya because 4 gate actually has a possibility in winning and shows that he at least gives a shit to play a real match.
but he didn't give a shit to play meanigless match! ... he actually DO give a shit to play REAL matches ... like those which he was supposed to play in Code S
I think that Mr. Chae actually needs to do some explaining here. Im sorry to say it, but the notion that GSL is putting out there that they WERE GOING to give Naniwa a code S seed, but the decided not to is just a farce. Naniwa earned the seed and then it was taken from him. This wasn't an "invite" until it was time to be taken away. I researched all of the threads that came BEFORE MLG Providence, and nowhere is it stated that the mlg-gsl league exchange program would not be in effect for that tournament, all it states is that there would be "2 foreigner players" in the seeds, one of which was clearly expected to be from MLG.
Naniwa earned the seed and GSL took it from him because(of course he made a dumb decision too) they decided to force him to play a meaningless game, when he was probably at his worst state mentally.
So many people mention Naniwa earning the spot and so on and I find it very silly. Whether Naniwa won the spot or not, he is paying for his misdeed.(some might argue it did not bother them but pretty clear one too many group is upset or else we'd never have numbers of threads on this topic) There were also many people saying naniwa has every right to do whatever he wishes or let Naniwa be Naniwa kinda arguement. However, as a pro (even before being a pro, as a grown-up), he ought to know that an action will be followed by consequences and he should take full responsibility for his actions.) In short, I do believe this is a little harsh, but Naniwa's paying for his action and I respect Gom's decision to strip (or whatever it is) him of the spot
On December 15 2011 04:46 Hubris wrote: I've yet to hear a clear and coherent argument stating why Gom is wrong removing a player that disrespected them from their tourny. I think some here need to tone down the fanboy rage/national pride and just accept that he broke cultural norms for a serious sport and got reprimanded for it. It's really that simple. If he's code S worthy he'll do well in up/downs and it wont matter anyway.
name another sport where you can be thrown out for "breaking cultural norms" with no specific rule
Name a sport where you're allowed to flagrantly throw games? You're not allowed to throw games but it's usually hard to prove, but it's obvious in this case.
in any sport where you're not allowed to throw games, it's because there's a rule against it, which there wasn't here. in other words, naniwa is being treated as though he's broken a rule when he hasn't.
not to mention there are other sports where games are thrown. chessplayers throw games or arrange draws all the time. nfl teams "suck for luck." tennis players withdraw after a slight hint of injury because they don't think the tournament they're in matters as much as the next one. etc.
On December 15 2011 04:51 Jono7272 wrote: Nicely said Mr. Chae. Definitely agree that's how a pro gamer should act.
But going from that to denying him the Code S spot is quite harsh. Then again, what other option was there, a fine was not an option seeing as Naniwa didn't break any rules.
So if you don't break a a rule, you can't be issued a small punishment, but a harsh one is OK? I do not follow that logic.
On December 15 2011 03:53 diophan wrote: I'm very happy that GOM's response was infinitely more measured than what was claimed. Also whoever said he was called a money grubbing hunter or whatever should be ashamed for tarnishing GOM's reputation.
Once again I am deeply sorry about posting something from non-credible source.. I am trying to communicate with Mr.CHAE also to apologize in person.. I love e-sports and my aim was sole to create a faster communication line between two communities which I have failed at. I am truly sorry.
That's the problem with doing some sort of reporting. If the source is wrong, it doesn't come back on them, it comes back on the person giving the information from the source. It's the one thing I have kept in my mind from my first journalism class when it comes to reporting; If your source is wrong, run and hide.
Good intentions bro, just bad judgement, it happens.
If they tossed an invite to Naniwa at random to promote more foreigners, I'd be okay with it. But Naniwa tore through MLG to get it. I definitely don't approve of GOMTV pulling the rug from beneath any pro gamer they don't deem fit and professional enough when it's entirely within THEIR discretion; Naniwa didn't break any rules. It also feels like it's shitting on the integrity of the MLG/GSL partnership as well.
Mr. Chae's definition of a pro gamer is pretty shady, and completely BS. He has an incentive to say they're to generate entertainment which ultimately leads to more viewers/money. I'm not saying he's a mega corporation, and it's entirely reasonable as a business to have financial incentives in mind. Destiny said it best; Would ANYONE play for free, exclusively for the benefit of a league making money off of it. Naniwa didn't fake throwing the game, therefore he's completely dishonorable. There is more I could say but it's extremely controversial.
And they aren't even mentioning (based purely on reading this thread) any reassurance that they'll remove inconsequential matches from any and all future formats. Not even because of what happened with Naniwa, or the prospect of players not giving a fuck and throwing it in many less obvious kinds of ways for the fans. But because it doesn't make sense to basically put all your eggs into the player's basket, and hope they play their hardest for the best possible games; when you KNOW you could simply remove the entire possibility out of the equation and make ALL games the highest possible level.
On December 15 2011 03:13 Jhax[IRE] wrote: Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum.
In this case you have to face the results.
Also, this 99% thing is BS. If I´d believe 99% of the worlds population are arrogant, immature, disrespectful kids I would go kill myself.
No it's not. Naniwa worked his ass off practicing for these matches, barely lost, all of them heart breaking and mind numbingly close, and in the end he's told to play Nestea for absolutely no reason; at the very least FAKE he's putting a minimal amount of effort when he's still crushed from being eliminated 30 minutes ago.
When the fuck are the other 99% ever put in that situation, and who the fuck of the 99% put a fraction of the dedication Naniwa does into this game.
On December 15 2011 04:51 Jono7272 wrote: Nicely said Mr. Chae. Definitely agree that's how a pro gamer should act.
But going from that to denying him the Code S spot is quite harsh. Then again, what other option was there, a fine was not an option seeing as Naniwa didn't break any rules.
how about a warning? maybe make it publicly known and that if it happens in the future you can have your spot in GSL revoked.
On December 15 2011 04:26 Peleus wrote: God I can't believe how retarded some TL users are being about this.
a) Naniwa clearly deliberately threw the game. Right or wrong aside can we all at least agree on that? Sending 7 probes to your base is not going to win, I know it, you know it, a silver leaguer knows it. Compounded with looking bored, hand on chin, there shouldn't even be questions about whether he threw the game or not. Therefore discussions along the lines of 'bad stratergies can get you banned from GSL' are fairly stupid. Yes there is a level of subjectivity, yes we should always be able to agree Naniwa wasn't using a bad stratergy, he was throwing the game.
b) Discussions relating to the contractual giving of Naniwa a spot etc are also pretty clear. Yes he was awarded a spot, yes he was going to be going. He was specifically removed due to the rule relating to offending the audience / BM. Therefore due to violating the rules he has been removed. There is no 'they never gave him the spot he contractually must have', but rather it was given and lost due to rule violation.
c) The quote from Mr Chae is explaining the motivation behind the decision, but it seems some people are having trouble understanding it. GOM defines a pro gamer as someone who wants to win no matter what is on the line in a competition like this on the world stage. They are also there to entertain the crowd. There is more to a progamer than simply their skill level. As a result the progamer Naniwa was invited, but because of his BM and clear lack of adherence to the values that define a gamer the person behind the keyboard isn't welcome and has been removed under the previously mentioned rules. As far as they are concerned 'Naniwa' the pro gamer doesn't exist.
TL;DR - Don't be a dick and realise at this level there is more to progaming than simply skill level, but entertaining and maintaining a minimum ethical standard. If you can't do that than you're not going to be welcome in some competitions. Behind GOM 100%.
Only with a) that may be true, but there's no rule judging the validity of a strategy, no matter how stupid. b) is false, read the OP. No rule specifically mentioned. c) is true, except for the rules part, and there's nothing in there that prohibits Naniwa's attitude.
His ban would've been fine by me, had there actually been a rule in place to stop what Naniwa did. There wasn't.
On December 15 2011 04:40 o[twist] wrote: i don't think anybody's mentioned this, but the rule that was used to disqualify naniwa (of course, this is subject to translation issues) was "shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviors." do we have any reason to think that this would refer to in-game actions rather than, say, chat or ceremonies? has this rule ever been applied before and would naniwa have had any reason to think that it would have applied to this action? these are all things you need to take into consideration when you ask whether this is fair to naniwa and to mlg.
in my eyes this is clearly an arbitrary and capricious use of the rule and it's frankly unconscionable to treat players like this. fuck naniwa for throwing a game, sure, but i have serious doubts about it being against that rule, at least as stated in english.
I don't even like Naniwa, but I agree 100%.
I watched the entire series and I have to say, I was more amused by the probe rush than anything.
(read: The match had zero meaning, and even Tastosis thought they would just skip the match, because both of them were already eliminated, and it would not affect Blizzard Cup in the slightest manner.)
Offended so much that you have to harshly penalize a player? Give a warning and that'd be enough.
Seriously, GOM just lowered itself to Nani's level.
LoL, it feels like some childish eye for an eye bs - you hurt my feelings; therefore, I will bend the rules to hurt you too.
On December 15 2011 04:47 careohx wrote: Oh and the rule "you need to act as a gamer". What defines a gamer? Based on this rule they can remove anyone for whatever reason. We cant have things like this and talk about PROFESSIONALISM.
It means you try in your games and take on the responsibility of representing your team/sport/fans/sponsors by being a gamer and entertainer first, selfish money grubbing mentality second.
lol. this is just a way of taking advantage of people. "don't worry so much about the money. we'll throw you out if you do." very easy to take advantage of brilliant 17-year-old korean kids that way, which is what esports loves to do.
On December 15 2011 04:46 Hubris wrote: I've yet to hear a clear and coherent argument stating why Gom is wrong removing a player that disrespected them from their tourny. I think some here need to tone down the fanboy rage/national pride and just accept that he broke cultural norms for a serious sport and got reprimanded for it. It's really that simple. If he's code S worthy he'll do well in up/downs and it wont matter anyway.
name another sport where you can be thrown out for "breaking cultural norms" with no specific rule
I dont speak Korean or have access to his contract but in the end there should not have to be a rule for this sort of thing. Its so common sense that you dont sabotage content for sponsors and fans.
All parties knew what was expected of them. Naniwa would have to be REALLY dense to think this was acceptable but he let his emotions get the best of him and messed up. The end result is that naniwa essentially stole one game worth of content from GOM and thus GOM failed to deliver on their promise to consumers.
None of these realities require input from anybody, they are verifiable facts. As such, im hard pressed to think of a situation where I can justify not punishing him at all and only the severity is in question.
On December 15 2011 04:40 o[twist] wrote: i don't think anybody's mentioned this, but the rule that was used to disqualify naniwa (of course, this is subject to translation issues) was "shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviors." do we have any reason to think that this would refer to in-game actions rather than, say, chat or ceremonies? has this rule ever been applied before and would naniwa have had any reason to think that it would have applied to this action? these are all things you need to take into consideration when you ask whether this is fair to naniwa and to mlg.
in my eyes this is clearly an arbitrary and capricious use of the rule and it's frankly unconscionable to treat players like this. fuck naniwa for throwing a game, sure, but i have serious doubts about it being against that rule, at least as stated in english.
Didn't say 'during the game' as well? Anyway, that thread was closed so I'm not sure if it was translated/cited correctly but yes I do see issues with how its worded and defined if that is in fact the case.
No, it has never been applied before. That's why its new and this presents many problems especially when you take into account the audiences reception.
I even have problems with the players calling the shots on what's offensive and what isn't.
A few examples:
- abusive strategies - /dance - manner mule - drawing/writing messages with buildings to your fans - etc.
The question is where do you draw the line.
Rules have to be concrete. This new rule if it is as described isn't.
He has had this coming for a year. His behavior hasn't gotten any better, despite many claims to the contrary. Every other tournament he's pulling another stunt like this.
Do you all remember the picture of sundance sitting in the crowd at MLG, looking up to naniwa badmouthing his tournament in chat on stage? Do you all remember the interview sundance gave on the future of MLG? The drunken tweets revealing tidbits to the people who care because HE CARES? And this spoiled twerp naniwa walks away at his tournament after insulting it with second place. Well, that's a bigger injustice than GOM is doing to naniwa right now anyway. Throwing a game in an invitational cup, something so big that only 10 players worldwide are invited, is a giant insult to the organisation.
Naniwa has racked up a huge list of tournament bans over the years, including plenty of clan kicks. He has not changed, shows unwillingness to change, and even now, his attitude is that of someone either thinking he can still play along by nodding his head and pretending he's listening, or he's looking to be justified through the audience.
No, Naniwa. I hope you never play another game again, you spoiled brat.
On December 15 2011 04:51 Jono7272 wrote: Nicely said Mr. Chae. Definitely agree that's how a pro gamer should act.
But going from that to denying him the Code S spot is quite harsh. Then again, what other option was there, a fine was not an option seeing as Naniwa didn't break any rules.
So if you don't break a a rule, you can't be issued a small punishment, but a harsh one is OK? I do not follow that logic.
His Code S spot was never guaranteed, it was an invite seed. For his attitude they changed their mind about inviting him, that's all.
What should be the punishment? As obviously GOM feel he acted immaturely and unprofessional. A fine is not really an option for this kind of misconduct.
On December 15 2011 03:20 CryingPoo wrote: I also have changed the post that I made and made a referral to your thread. Once again I am deeply sorry.
This is a gross error that cannot be remedied by a simple apology. Instances like this and the misjudgements made about EG in the Providence writeup by Heyoka underscore the significant detriment to TL caused by poor reporting/journalism. Without enforcing the commentary before it is published, or prefacing controversial posts with "These statements are unvalidated and unconfirmed", all information that comes out of TL can only be taken as a rumor and possibly, entirely untrue. Posters with a lack of judgement and discretion, like CryingPoo and heyoka only serve to bring down the credibility of TL as a reputable source of information for Starcraft 2.
Because writing an opinion piece about EG's pro house, even if its an unpopular opinion, and someone posting blatantly wrong information is the same thing.
That wasn't an opinion piece about the EG pro house anyways, he brought that shit into a tournament summary.
On December 15 2011 04:52 PHILtheTANK wrote: I think that Mr. Chae actually needs to do some explaining here. Im sorry to say it, but the notion that GSL is putting out there that they WERE GOING to give Naniwa a code S seed, but the decided not to is just a farce. Naniwa earned the seed and then it was taken from him. This wasn't an "invite" until it was time to be taken away. I researched all of the threads that came BEFORE MLG Providence, and nowhere is it stated that the mlg-gsl league exchange program would not be in effect for that tournament, all it states is that there would be "2 foreigner players" in the seeds, one of which was clearly expected to be from MLG.
Naniwa earned the seed and GSL took it from him because(of course he made a dumb decision too) they decided to force him to play a meaningless game, when he was probably at his worst state mentally.
Yes! so true.
Basically, up until this whole debacle it was more or less universally agreed on that 2 players would recieve 2 Code S spots, not two POSSIBLE code s spots, but then this whole thing happened and all of a sudden those two spots turned into "possible invites"
just saw this. i am glad GomTV did what it did or else it cannot face Korean Netizens. Also, it sets a good precedent that it could take away code s spots due to throwing away games. To me, Naniwa deserves what he got, if Coca got completely demoted for just throwing away a match to Byun. I guess to make up to foreigners, it invited 2 more foreigners haha.
On December 15 2011 04:53 Tyrant0 wrote: If they tossed an invite to Naniwa at random to promote more foreigners, I'd be okay with it. But Naniwa tore through MLG to get it. I definitely don't approve of GOMTV pulling the rug from beneath any pro gamer they don't deem fit and professional enough when it's entirely within THEIR discretion; Naniwa didn't break any rules. It also feels like it's shitting on the integrity of the MLG/GSL partnership as well.
Mr. Chae's definition of a pro gamer is pretty shady, and completely BS. He has an incentive to say they're to generate entertainment which ultimately leads to more viewers/money. I'm not saying he's a mega corporation, and it's entirely reasonable as a business to have financial incentives in mind. Destiny said it best; Would ANYONE play for free, exclusively for the benefit of a league making money off of it. Naniwa didn't fake throwing the game, therefore he's completely dishonorable. There is more I could say but it's extremely controversial.
And they aren't even mentioning (based purely on reading this thread) any reassurance that they'll remove inconsequential matches from any and all future formats. Not even because of what happened with Naniwa, or the prospect of players not giving a fuck and throwing it in many less obvious kinds of ways for the fans. But because it doesn't make sense to basically put all your eggs into the player's basket, and hope they play their hardest for the best possible games; when you KNOW you could simply remove the entire possibility out of the equation and make ALL games the highest possible level.
On December 15 2011 03:13 Jhax[IRE] wrote: Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum.
In this case you have to face the results.
Also, this 99% thing is BS. If I´d believe 99% of the worlds population are arrogant, immature, disrespectful kids I would go kill myself.
No it's not. Naniwa worked his ass off practicing for these matches, barely lost, all of them heart breaking and mind numbingly close, and in the end he's told to play Nestea for absolutely no reason; at the very least FAKE he's putting a minimal amount of effort when he's still crushed from being eliminated 30 minutes ago.
When the fuck are the other 99% ever put in that situation, and who the fuck of the 99% put a fraction of the dedication Naniwa does into this game.
Know who else lost all previous games and had no hope of qualifying, yet showed up to play?
On December 15 2011 04:48 Namkung wrote: 저희가 시드를 줬던것은 퀀틱 게이밍의 프로토스 프로게이머 나니와 선수였지 스웨덴에서 게임을 잘하는 청년 요한 루세시는 아니였습니다.
the translation should be as follows for this line : We gave the seed to the Quantic Gaming's Protoss Player and NOT to the immature Swedish Player Johan Lucchesi who is good at the game.
You completely ignored the word 청년 in your translation which is the most important part in that statement. or what makes it very clear. From this, Mr.Chae is saying that Naniwa is very immature for what he did. and ultimately the person he gave the Code S seed to was simply a PRO PLAYER FROM QUANTIC GAMING and not the immature person that it turned out to be.
edit : the word 청년 in Korean means a teenager. and in this kind of context, the word can be used to describe the characteristics / attributes associated with a teenager . being immature
On December 15 2011 04:51 Jono7272 wrote: Nicely said Mr. Chae. Definitely agree that's how a pro gamer should act.
But going from that to denying him the Code S spot is quite harsh. Then again, what other option was there, a fine was not an option seeing as Naniwa didn't break any rules.
how about a warning? maybe make it publicly known and that if it happens in the future you can have your spot in GSL revoked.
True, maybe a warning would have been better. But looking at the player in questions past "incidents", maybe they felt a warning wouldn't be adequate?
On December 15 2011 04:53 Tyrant0 wrote: If they tossed an invite to Naniwa at random to promote more foreigners, I'd be okay with it. But Naniwa tore through MLG to get it. I definitely don't approve of GOMTV pulling the rug from beneath any pro gamer they don't deem fit and professional enough when it's entirely within THEIR discretion; Naniwa didn't break any rules. It also feels like it's shitting on the integrity of the MLG/GSL partnership as well.
Mr. Chae's definition of a pro gamer is pretty shady, and completely BS. He has an incentive to say they're to generate entertainment which ultimately leads to more viewers/money. I'm not saying he's a mega corporation, and it's entirely reasonable as a business to have financial incentives in mind. Destiny said it best; Would ANYONE play for free, exclusively for the benefit of a league making money off of it. Naniwa didn't fake throwing the game, therefore he's completely dishonorable. There is more I could say but it's extremely controversial.
And they aren't even mentioning (based purely on reading this thread) any reassurance that they'll remove inconsequential matches from any and all future formats. Not even because of what happened with Naniwa, or the prospect of players not giving a fuck and throwing it in many less obvious kinds of ways for the fans. But because it doesn't make sense to basically put all your eggs into the player's basket, and hope they play their hardest for the best possible games; when you KNOW you could simply remove the entire possibility out of the equation and make ALL games the highest possible level.
On December 15 2011 03:27 Aunvilgod wrote:
On December 15 2011 03:13 Jhax[IRE] wrote: Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum.
In this case you have to face the results.
Also, this 99% thing is BS. If I´d believe 99% of the worlds population are arrogant, immature, disrespectful kids I would go kill myself.
No it's not. Naniwa worked his ass off practicing for these matches, barely lost, all of them heart breaking and mind numbingly close, and in the end he's told to play Nestea for absolutely no reason; at the very least FAKE he's putting a minimal amount of effort when he's still crushed from being eliminated 30 minutes ago.
When the fuck are the other 99% ever put in that situation, and who the fuck of the 99% put a fraction of the dedication Naniwa does into this game.
Know who else lost all previous games and had no hope of qualifying, yet showed up to play?
Nestea.
Ok, so they're different people that have different feelings thus act differently.
This really makes me sad to see that GSL is taking such a formal action, considering the informal nature of Naniwa's 7 probe rush...
Had Naniwa broken any rules, or contract signing, I would feel obligated to agree with Gom's decision, but as seeing lack of proof in any PR release from either side. It's painfully obvious that there is no formal rule breaking on Naniwa's side, otherwise we'd see part of contracts outlined at this point.
On December 15 2011 04:51 Jono7272 wrote: Nicely said Mr. Chae. Definitely agree that's how a pro gamer should act.
But going from that to denying him the Code S spot is quite harsh. Then again, what other option was there, a fine was not an option seeing as Naniwa didn't break any rules.
So if you don't break a a rule, you can't be issued a small punishment, but a harsh one is OK? I do not follow that logic.
His Code S spot was never guaranteed, it was an invite seed. For his attitude they changed their mind about inviting him, that's all.
What should be the punishment? As obviously GOM feel he acted immaturely and unprofessional. A fine is not really an option for this kind of misconduct.
So since Gom didn't have a real reason to kick Naniwa out they instead just tell everyone that they "chose" to invite someone else. Koreans always over respond to everything.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
On December 15 2011 04:53 Tyrant0 wrote: If they tossed an invite to Naniwa at random to promote more foreigners, I'd be okay with it. But Naniwa tore through MLG to get it. I definitely don't approve of GOMTV pulling the rug from beneath any pro gamer they don't deem fit and professional enough when it's entirely within THEIR discretion; Naniwa didn't break any rules. It also feels like it's shitting on the integrity of the MLG/GSL partnership as well.
Mr. Chae's definition of a pro gamer is pretty shady, and completely BS. He has an incentive to say they're to generate entertainment which ultimately leads to more viewers/money. I'm not saying he's a mega corporation, and it's entirely reasonable as a business to have financial incentives in mind. Destiny said it best; Would ANYONE play for free, exclusively for the benefit of a league making money off of it. Naniwa didn't fake throwing the game, therefore he's completely dishonorable. There is more I could say but it's extremely controversial.
And they aren't even mentioning (based purely on reading this thread) any reassurance that they'll remove inconsequential matches from any and all future formats. Not even because of what happened with Naniwa, or the prospect of players not giving a fuck and throwing it in many less obvious kinds of ways for the fans. But because it doesn't make sense to basically put all your eggs into the player's basket, and hope they play their hardest for the best possible games; when you KNOW you could simply remove the entire possibility out of the equation and make ALL games the highest possible level.
On December 15 2011 03:27 Aunvilgod wrote:
On December 15 2011 03:13 Jhax[IRE] wrote: Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum.
In this case you have to face the results.
Also, this 99% thing is BS. If I´d believe 99% of the worlds population are arrogant, immature, disrespectful kids I would go kill myself.
No it's not. Naniwa worked his ass off practicing for these matches, barely lost, all of them heart breaking and mind numbingly close, and in the end he's told to play Nestea for absolutely no reason; at the very least FAKE he's putting a minimal amount of effort when he's still crushed from being eliminated 30 minutes ago.
When the fuck are the other 99% ever put in that situation, and who the fuck of the 99% put a fraction of the dedication Naniwa does into this game.
Know who else lost all previous games and had no hope of qualifying, yet showed up to play?
Nestea.
Ok, so they're different people that have different feelings thus act differently.
Whats your point here exactly ackbar?
Nestea, despite not being able to advance, didn't give the middle finger to those that paid to watch the game and to GOM, who paid him for going to the tournament?
On December 15 2011 04:53 Tyrant0 wrote: If they tossed an invite to Naniwa at random to promote more foreigners, I'd be okay with it. But Naniwa tore through MLG to get it. I definitely don't approve of GOMTV pulling the rug from beneath any pro gamer they don't deem fit and professional enough when it's entirely within THEIR discretion; Naniwa didn't break any rules. It also feels like it's shitting on the integrity of the MLG/GSL partnership as well.
Mr. Chae's definition of a pro gamer is pretty shady, and completely BS. He has an incentive to say they're to generate entertainment which ultimately leads to more viewers/money. I'm not saying he's a mega corporation, and it's entirely reasonable as a business to have financial incentives in mind. Destiny said it best; Would ANYONE play for free, exclusively for the benefit of a league making money off of it. Naniwa didn't fake throwing the game, therefore he's completely dishonorable. There is more I could say but it's extremely controversial.
And they aren't even mentioning (based purely on reading this thread) any reassurance that they'll remove inconsequential matches from any and all future formats. Not even because of what happened with Naniwa, or the prospect of players not giving a fuck and throwing it in many less obvious kinds of ways for the fans. But because it doesn't make sense to basically put all your eggs into the player's basket, and hope they play their hardest for the best possible games; when you KNOW you could simply remove the entire possibility out of the equation and make ALL games the highest possible level.
On December 15 2011 03:27 Aunvilgod wrote:
On December 15 2011 03:13 Jhax[IRE] wrote: Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum.
In this case you have to face the results.
Also, this 99% thing is BS. If I´d believe 99% of the worlds population are arrogant, immature, disrespectful kids I would go kill myself.
No it's not. Naniwa worked his ass off practicing for these matches, barely lost, all of them heart breaking and mind numbingly close, and in the end he's told to play Nestea for absolutely no reason; at the very least FAKE he's putting a minimal amount of effort when he's still crushed from being eliminated 30 minutes ago.
When the fuck are the other 99% ever put in that situation, and who the fuck of the 99% put a fraction of the dedication Naniwa does into this game.
Know who else lost all previous games and had no hope of qualifying, yet showed up to play?
Nestea.
Ok, so they're different people that have different feelings thus act differently.
Whats your point here exactly ackbar?
The point is that Nestea probably works as hard as Naniwa, was also probably crushed by being eliminated, but was professional enough to show up and play. I understand that Naniwa is a passionate gamer who was deeply frustrated, but he could have acted a little more professionally.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
actually, if you're a shitty employee, you'll be fired, and if you're fired without cause or for spurious cause then you can probably sue for wrongful termination, and either way you can get severance pay, etc.
On December 15 2011 04:53 Tyrant0 wrote: If they tossed an invite to Naniwa at random to promote more foreigners, I'd be okay with it. But Naniwa tore through MLG to get it. I definitely don't approve of GOMTV pulling the rug from beneath any pro gamer they don't deem fit and professional enough when it's entirely within THEIR discretion; Naniwa didn't break any rules. It also feels like it's shitting on the integrity of the MLG/GSL partnership as well.
Mr. Chae's definition of a pro gamer is pretty shady, and completely BS. He has an incentive to say they're to generate entertainment which ultimately leads to more viewers/money. I'm not saying he's a mega corporation, and it's entirely reasonable as a business to have financial incentives in mind. Destiny said it best; Would ANYONE play for free, exclusively for the benefit of a league making money off of it. Naniwa didn't fake throwing the game, therefore he's completely dishonorable. There is more I could say but it's extremely controversial.
And they aren't even mentioning (based purely on reading this thread) any reassurance that they'll remove inconsequential matches from any and all future formats. Not even because of what happened with Naniwa, or the prospect of players not giving a fuck and throwing it in many less obvious kinds of ways for the fans. But because it doesn't make sense to basically put all your eggs into the player's basket, and hope they play their hardest for the best possible games; when you KNOW you could simply remove the entire possibility out of the equation and make ALL games the highest possible level.
On December 15 2011 03:27 Aunvilgod wrote:
On December 15 2011 03:13 Jhax[IRE] wrote: Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum.
In this case you have to face the results.
Also, this 99% thing is BS. If I´d believe 99% of the worlds population are arrogant, immature, disrespectful kids I would go kill myself.
No it's not. Naniwa worked his ass off practicing for these matches, barely lost, all of them heart breaking and mind numbingly close, and in the end he's told to play Nestea for absolutely no reason; at the very least FAKE he's putting a minimal amount of effort when he's still crushed from being eliminated 30 minutes ago.
When the fuck are the other 99% ever put in that situation, and who the fuck of the 99% put a fraction of the dedication Naniwa does into this game.
Know who else lost all previous games and had no hope of qualifying, yet showed up to play?
Nestea.
Different people are different... I guess koreans are so scared that theyd rather play pretend then just adcmitting that they dont feel like they can deliver a good game
On December 15 2011 04:48 Namkung wrote: 저희가 시드를 줬던것은 퀀틱 게이밍의 프로토스 프로게이머 나니와 선수였지 스웨덴에서 게임을 잘하는 청년 요한 루세시는 아니였습니다.
the translation should be as follows for this line : We gave the seed to the Quantic Gaming's Protoss Player and NOT to the immature Swedish Player Johan Lucchesi who is good at the game.
You completely ignored the word 청년 in your translation which is the most important part in that statement. or what makes it very clear. From this, Mr.Chae is saying that Naniwa is very immature for what he did. and ultimately the person he gave the Code S seed to was simply a PRO PLAYER FROM QUANTIC GAMING and not the immature person that it turned out to be.
edit : the word 청년 in Korean means a teenager. and in this kind of context, the word can be used to describe the characteristics / attributes associated with a teenager . being immature
I believe you are trying to stretch the context in the negative direction.
You did not include the title 'progamer' in the first part of that sentence. It should be a word-for-word translation that the word 프로게이머 is translated as progamer. You used 'player,' which is sometimes an acceptable substitution for 'progamer,' but in this heated controversy at the moment, little substitutions like that can be subject to endless speculation, so I would be careful there.
More importantly, 청년 -> teenager is just one use. It is also used to address (male) adolescents and young adults. Commonly, it comes with the implications of youth, but not necessarily immaturity. I quickly looked up some Korean dictionaries online, and majority of them define the word as "youth," with other uses as "young adult in age group 20-30."
A more commonly used word for (young) teenager or child is 소년.
A job of a translator is to translate, not speculate. I hope you don't tarnish it for the rest of us.
On December 15 2011 04:53 Tyrant0 wrote: If they tossed an invite to Naniwa at random to promote more foreigners, I'd be okay with it. But Naniwa tore through MLG to get it. I definitely don't approve of GOMTV pulling the rug from beneath any pro gamer they don't deem fit and professional enough when it's entirely within THEIR discretion; Naniwa didn't break any rules. It also feels like it's shitting on the integrity of the MLG/GSL partnership as well.
Mr. Chae's definition of a pro gamer is pretty shady, and completely BS. He has an incentive to say they're to generate entertainment which ultimately leads to more viewers/money. I'm not saying he's a mega corporation, and it's entirely reasonable as a business to have financial incentives in mind. Destiny said it best; Would ANYONE play for free, exclusively for the benefit of a league making money off of it. Naniwa didn't fake throwing the game, therefore he's completely dishonorable. There is more I could say but it's extremely controversial.
And they aren't even mentioning (based purely on reading this thread) any reassurance that they'll remove inconsequential matches from any and all future formats. Not even because of what happened with Naniwa, or the prospect of players not giving a fuck and throwing it in many less obvious kinds of ways for the fans. But because it doesn't make sense to basically put all your eggs into the player's basket, and hope they play their hardest for the best possible games; when you KNOW you could simply remove the entire possibility out of the equation and make ALL games the highest possible level.
On December 15 2011 03:27 Aunvilgod wrote:
On December 15 2011 03:13 Jhax[IRE] wrote: Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum.
In this case you have to face the results.
Also, this 99% thing is BS. If I´d believe 99% of the worlds population are arrogant, immature, disrespectful kids I would go kill myself.
No it's not. Naniwa worked his ass off practicing for these matches, barely lost, all of them heart breaking and mind numbingly close, and in the end he's told to play Nestea for absolutely no reason; at the very least FAKE he's putting a minimal amount of effort when he's still crushed from being eliminated 30 minutes ago.
When the fuck are the other 99% ever put in that situation, and who the fuck of the 99% put a fraction of the dedication Naniwa does into this game.
Know who else lost all previous games and had no hope of qualifying, yet showed up to play?
Nestea.
Different people are different... I guess koreans are so scared that theyd rather play pretend then just adcmitting that they dont feel like they can deliver a good game
I guess you have some insider knowledge that says that Koreans are "so scared" and just pretend to try, instead of perhaps trying even if they can't advance in a tournament?
On December 15 2011 04:48 Namkung wrote: 저희가 시드를 줬던것은 퀀틱 게이밍의 프로토스 프로게이머 나니와 선수였지 스웨덴에서 게임을 잘하는 청년 요한 루세시는 아니였습니다.
the translation should be as follows for this line : We gave the seed to the Quantic Gaming's Protoss Player and NOT to the immature Swedish Player Johan Lucchesi who is good at the game.
You completely ignored the word 청년 in your translation which is the most important part in that statement. or what makes it very clear. From this, Mr.Chae is saying that Naniwa is very immature for what he did. and ultimately the person he gave the Code S seed to was simply a PRO PLAYER FROM QUANTIC GAMING and not the immature person that it turned out to be.
edit : the word 청년 in Korean means a teenager. and in this kind of context, the word can be used to describe the characteristics / attributes associated with a teenager . being immature
thanks namkung. quoted for visibility, plz OP, update. If you agree on the translation of course...
Remember that even in the NBA, David Stern had the power to stop NBA players from wearing baggy clothing or hats sideways even if that was "their personality". It's a price you pay to play in the organization.
"Being yourself" is something they teach you in gradeschool. In the professional world, you have to make some changes to yourself for the good of the organization you are working for / represent.
Oh btw, to the guy who spread misinformation about the whole incident, please refrain from posting in the forums. My alien friend tells me a lot of things, but I don't just post it everywhere claiming whatever he says is true.
Sick of this friend of my friend said this; therefore, i have a credible source to start topics with..
On December 15 2011 04:53 Tyrant0 wrote: If they tossed an invite to Naniwa at random to promote more foreigners, I'd be okay with it. But Naniwa tore through MLG to get it. I definitely don't approve of GOMTV pulling the rug from beneath any pro gamer they don't deem fit and professional enough when it's entirely within THEIR discretion; Naniwa didn't break any rules. It also feels like it's shitting on the integrity of the MLG/GSL partnership as well.
Mr. Chae's definition of a pro gamer is pretty shady, and completely BS. He has an incentive to say they're to generate entertainment which ultimately leads to more viewers/money. I'm not saying he's a mega corporation, and it's entirely reasonable as a business to have financial incentives in mind. Destiny said it best; Would ANYONE play for free, exclusively for the benefit of a league making money off of it. Naniwa didn't fake throwing the game, therefore he's completely dishonorable. There is more I could say but it's extremely controversial.
And they aren't even mentioning (based purely on reading this thread) any reassurance that they'll remove inconsequential matches from any and all future formats. Not even because of what happened with Naniwa, or the prospect of players not giving a fuck and throwing it in many less obvious kinds of ways for the fans. But because it doesn't make sense to basically put all your eggs into the player's basket, and hope they play their hardest for the best possible games; when you KNOW you could simply remove the entire possibility out of the equation and make ALL games the highest possible level.
On December 15 2011 03:27 Aunvilgod wrote:
On December 15 2011 03:13 Jhax[IRE] wrote: Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum.
In this case you have to face the results.
Also, this 99% thing is BS. If I´d believe 99% of the worlds population are arrogant, immature, disrespectful kids I would go kill myself.
No it's not. Naniwa worked his ass off practicing for these matches, barely lost, all of them heart breaking and mind numbingly close, and in the end he's told to play Nestea for absolutely no reason; at the very least FAKE he's putting a minimal amount of effort when he's still crushed from being eliminated 30 minutes ago.
When the fuck are the other 99% ever put in that situation, and who the fuck of the 99% put a fraction of the dedication Naniwa does into this game.
Know who else lost all previous games and had no hope of qualifying, yet showed up to play?
Nestea.
Different people are different...
Indeed. The difference between Nestea and Nani is night and day.
I guess koreans are so scared that theyd rather play pretend then just adcmitting that they dont feel like they can deliver a good game
Sometimes being a professional involves doing things you don't particularly want to do.
On December 15 2011 04:53 Tyrant0 wrote: If they tossed an invite to Naniwa at random to promote more foreigners, I'd be okay with it. But Naniwa tore through MLG to get it. I definitely don't approve of GOMTV pulling the rug from beneath any pro gamer they don't deem fit and professional enough when it's entirely within THEIR discretion; Naniwa didn't break any rules. It also feels like it's shitting on the integrity of the MLG/GSL partnership as well.
Mr. Chae's definition of a pro gamer is pretty shady, and completely BS. He has an incentive to say they're to generate entertainment which ultimately leads to more viewers/money. I'm not saying he's a mega corporation, and it's entirely reasonable as a business to have financial incentives in mind. Destiny said it best; Would ANYONE play for free, exclusively for the benefit of a league making money off of it. Naniwa didn't fake throwing the game, therefore he's completely dishonorable. There is more I could say but it's extremely controversial.
And they aren't even mentioning (based purely on reading this thread) any reassurance that they'll remove inconsequential matches from any and all future formats. Not even because of what happened with Naniwa, or the prospect of players not giving a fuck and throwing it in many less obvious kinds of ways for the fans. But because it doesn't make sense to basically put all your eggs into the player's basket, and hope they play their hardest for the best possible games; when you KNOW you could simply remove the entire possibility out of the equation and make ALL games the highest possible level.
On December 15 2011 03:27 Aunvilgod wrote:
On December 15 2011 03:13 Jhax[IRE] wrote: Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum.
In this case you have to face the results.
Also, this 99% thing is BS. If I´d believe 99% of the worlds population are arrogant, immature, disrespectful kids I would go kill myself.
No it's not. Naniwa worked his ass off practicing for these matches, barely lost, all of them heart breaking and mind numbingly close, and in the end he's told to play Nestea for absolutely no reason; at the very least FAKE he's putting a minimal amount of effort when he's still crushed from being eliminated 30 minutes ago.
When the fuck are the other 99% ever put in that situation, and who the fuck of the 99% put a fraction of the dedication Naniwa does into this game.
Know who else lost all previous games and had no hope of qualifying, yet showed up to play?
Nestea.
Ok, so they're different people that have different feelings thus act differently.
Whats your point here exactly ackbar?
Nestea, despite not being able to advance, didn't give the middle finger to those that paid to watch the game and to GOM, who paid him for going to the tournament?
And you think these viewers wouldve been satisfied with a shitty 4 gate? In a situation where both players are not motivated or "in it" anymore there is nothing that can be done about it, there is no way they can force this game to be exiting. I closed the stream after nani lost his 3rd game because I didnt feel like watching him pretending to give a shit and I expected gom to be reasonable enough to just cancel the last game
On December 15 2011 04:35 Teriyaki-Boy wrote: I don't understand why, people are defending him for acting in such a way and trying to justified the game mean nothing....The game does mean something to the viewers and the fans of Naniwa and Nestea. People need to understand this is a business of entertainment and GOM wanna put out great content for their viewers and E-Sport to grow. I have to agree with the punishment, only caring for your own personal feeling and disregard your jobs is truly unprofessional.
To some viewers. To others, such as myself, it's a meaningless game, a consequence of a bad tournament format, that is being played out as show for the sake of the show. You're asking the players to fake it. That is almost impossible, as can be seen in how Hero didn't play to win in his match against DRG on monday, and almost always results in lackluster games, if not in trouble as we've seen here. It means you have to set a rather arbitrary rule for how much of an effort you're supposed to make. I wan't to see meaningful competition, matches that matter, not something akin to a wrestling match.
They are asking him to be little more professional and try to act like do care about the Fans and the viewers...yeah the tournament was meaningful to Naniwa until he got 0-3 and then decide to throw away the game in the most obvious way..Its like saying fuck your viewers, fuck your tournament. To act on one own feelings and not caring about other in a business environment is unacceptable and i stand by Gom for the Punishment.
Also, this 99% thing is BS. If I´d believe 99% of the worlds population are arrogant, immature, disrespectful kids I would go kill myself.
Yeah sure, you would totaly spend 100% of your remaining powers in a game that doesnt even matter and that you actually dont want to play, while already being exhausted and depressed. Please stop lying.
On December 15 2011 04:51 Jono7272 wrote: Nicely said Mr. Chae. Definitely agree that's how a pro gamer should act.
But going from that to denying him the Code S spot is quite harsh. Then again, what other option was there, a fine was not an option seeing as Naniwa didn't break any rules.
So if you don't break a a rule, you can't be issued a small punishment, but a harsh one is OK? I do not follow that logic.
His Code S spot was never guaranteed, it was an invite seed. For his attitude they changed their mind about inviting him, that's all.
What should be the punishment? As obviously GOM feel he acted immaturely and unprofessional. A fine is not really an option for this kind of misconduct.
People keep saying the spot wasn't garunteed, yet if you asked anybody if Naniwar was going to play in Caode S 48 hours ago, everybody woukd have said "Yes" and not "I GOM feels like it". He either had a Code S spot ot the fans were actually misled in that regard.
What should be the punishment? None, as no rule was broken. A warning might be issued that this type of behaviour is not deemed acceptable by GOM and will be punished in the future.
Then rules should be made for the future which clearly state what is and is not acceptable and what consequences there can be for breaking said rule.
On December 15 2011 04:02 HandleTaken wrote: I must admit my initial reaction upon hearing about this was: - Sigh, what did Naniwa do this time?
But after reading what actually transpired I think GOM overreacted.
Compare this to the Champions League soccer group game between Dinamo Zagreb vs Lyon. Zagreb had nothing to play for but Lyon did. Lyon won 7 - 1 and advanced from the group. Did Zagreb get thrown out of next CL-season? No, even though that match actually mattered.
I certainly won't subscribe to GSL after something like this happens.
Disciplinary actions regarding Dinamo Zagreb are still ongoing. The first probe for corruption was thrown off, but if Uefa let this pass than the champions league can say goodbye to it's integrity and you know it.
I'm sure Zagreb will get fined and that's exactly what should have happened to Naniwa. Make him pay back his Blizzard cup prize money in a fine (since GOM thinks Naniwa has shown unsportsmanlike behavior). Throwing Naniwa out of next GSL-season is just overdoing it.
Tournament organizers make a mistake and players suffer. Alltho i think naniwa didint handle that situation properly this kind of punishment is way to harsh.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
actually, if you're a shitty employee, you'll be fired, and if you're fired without cause or for spurious cause then you can probably sue for wrongful termination, and either way you can get severance pay, etc.
First off all, this is Korea, not the US.
Second of all, fired without cause? Hundreds of thousands saw Naniwa throw a game intentionally. Whether you agree with it or not, it breaks one of Gom's rules.
People need to understand that the Code S invite is a privilege, not a right.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
On December 15 2011 03:56 Fandango wrote: I really dislike that they're co-opting 'progamer' to mean the thing which helps the business side of things out (i.e. appeasing the fans and acting in a pre-approved manner), over meaning players who play the game at its highest competitive level, for the competition itself, using prize money to support that dedication. It's irritating because it can easily turn into a slippery slope where we end up with the kind of stilted interviews and lack of personality of BW events for fear of upsetting the infrastructure that supports them. The globalisation of starcraft has been fantastic for distributing the power of the tournament organisers to control things for ulterior motives that benefit them over the players, but the GSL having the best players means it has the most leverage to do things that satisfy their agenda, whether it's good for the players or not.
The weird way people put korean culture on a pedastal is really depressing too, where they think because it's korean they have a right to do things that negatively impact the scene as a whole. In general this whole thing has been one of the most depressing series of events to read on TL and honestly makes me more apathetic about people in general than ever. The amount of bizarre justifications ranging from conservative talking points that make no sense, to pro korean xenophobia, to 'for the greater esports good', to basing arguments off extrapolated opinions with little basis in fact. There's barely been 1 in 10 posts that hasn't included something that isn't a horrible abortion of logic and language.
I agree with every single word. We need to let go of the notion that the korean way is the ultimate way
On December 15 2011 04:35 Teriyaki-Boy wrote: I don't understand why, people are defending him for acting in such a way and trying to justified the game mean nothing....The game does mean something to the viewers and the fans of Naniwa and Nestea. People need to understand this is a business of entertainment and GOM wanna put out great content for their viewers and E-Sport to grow. I have to agree with the punishment, only caring for your own personal feeling and disregard your jobs is truly unprofessional.
To some viewers. To others, such as myself, it's a meaningless game, a consequence of a bad tournament format, that is being played out as show for the sake of the show. You're asking the players to fake it. That is almost impossible, as can be seen in how Hero didn't play to win in his match against DRG on monday, and almost always results in lackluster games, if not in trouble as we've seen here. It means you have to set a rather arbitrary rule for how much of an effort you're supposed to make. I wan't to see meaningful competition, matches that matter, not something akin to a wrestling match.
.Its like saying fuck your viewers, fuck your tournament. To act on one own feelings and not caring about other in a business environment is unacceptable and i stand by Gom for the Punishment.
This is what I just dont understand... YOu know what I consider "fuck you" to the viewers? Forcing a half assed game between two guys who arent focused down the vciewers throat just because you need to satisfy some artifical hype..
Nani simply felt like he coudlt deliver and didnt try to pretend because he didnt want to waste anyones time.
On December 15 2011 04:59 GodZo wrote: Naniwa deserves the Code S Spot.
GOM made a mistake in that situation, because it was an insignificant match, and it was much more funny than any other "4 gate" or trash game...
Naniwa didn't offend or hurt anybody. GOM and other persons have not humor, and don't consider the game for what it is, a funny game, not much more.
He actually offended a lot of people. Have you seen what the Koreans are saying about this.
Agreed. Koreans have very different cultural norms and values. Not necessarily better or worse - just different. From a western perspective, this was bm and probably not a wise move, but ultimately forgivable. To them, this was a slap in the face.
On December 15 2011 05:04 Roxy wrote: I dont understand. so he isnt banned from code s?
reading is fundamental my friend
like it has been mentioned millions of times, his invitation to Code S January was voided, but he could still try and qualify for subsequent GSL tournaments.
On December 15 2011 04:46 Hubris wrote: I've yet to hear a clear and coherent argument stating why Gom is wrong removing a player that disrespected them from their tourny. I think some here need to tone down the fanboy rage/national pride and just accept that he broke cultural norms for a serious sport and got reprimanded for it. It's really that simple. If he's code S worthy he'll do well in up/downs and it wont matter anyway.
name another sport where you can be thrown out for "breaking cultural norms" with no specific rule
In every Sport's buisness you get punished for unsporting behavior. I think the major point is: This is not a formal punishment for Naniwa which had to be covered by rules.
In fact: Naniwa just simply showed with his actions, that he doesn't have the attitude and shares the values, that they expect from a pro gamer. So they decided to give their seed to another one. Since there is no official participation list for GSL January, I don't expect, that a formal invitation exists at this point in time. So since you don't qualify on the official way (Code A Qualifier -> Code A -> Code S), I think GOM should be able to decide on their own, who they want to invite. And seriously Naniwa gave them several reasons, that he might not be the player, they are looking for.
On December 15 2011 05:04 -DMducky wrote: Coming from a Asian background; If someone walked around my house with their shoes on I would have kicked that person out of my house too...
Overall in my opinion he was being disrespectful. Punishment is harsh, but it was necessary.
Still welcome in my house next time, just has to take the shoes off.
Really? Why not just ask to take their shoes off? If you invited me to a party I'd be worried I might be kicked out for whatever. Unless you'd have a really amazing party I might just pass just to be on the safe side.
On December 15 2011 04:35 Teriyaki-Boy wrote: I don't understand why, people are defending him for acting in such a way and trying to justified the game mean nothing....The game does mean something to the viewers and the fans of Naniwa and Nestea. People need to understand this is a business of entertainment and GOM wanna put out great content for their viewers and E-Sport to grow. I have to agree with the punishment, only caring for your own personal feeling and disregard your jobs is truly unprofessional.
To some viewers. To others, such as myself, it's a meaningless game, a consequence of a bad tournament format, that is being played out as show for the sake of the show. You're asking the players to fake it. That is almost impossible, as can be seen in how Hero didn't play to win in his match against DRG on monday, and almost always results in lackluster games, if not in trouble as we've seen here. It means you have to set a rather arbitrary rule for how much of an effort you're supposed to make. I wan't to see meaningful competition, matches that matter, not something akin to a wrestling match.
They are asking him to be little more professional and try to act like do care about the Fans and the viewers...yeah the tournament was meaningful to Naniwa until he got 0-3 and then decide to throw away the game in the most obvious way..Its like saying fuck your viewers, fuck your tournament. To act on one own feelings and not caring about other in a business environment is unacceptable and i stand by Gom for the Punishment.
Everyone shits all over Naniwa and GOM is expected to take 0 responsibility over a shitty format that was half the problem in the first place. Enraged FANS should be angry GOM facilitates a format that ends up in fake matches that are UNENJOYABLE to watch. By siding with GOM you're basically agreeing that shitty 4 gates/6 gates are fun to watch and GOM should provoke more with even MORE inconsequential matches.
On December 15 2011 05:04 -DMducky wrote: Coming from a Asian background; If someone walked around my house with their shoes on I would have kicked that person out of my house too...
Overall in my opinion he was being disrespectful. Punishment is harsh, but it was necessary.
Still welcome in my house next time, just has to take the shoes off.
Hi welcome to my house. I realize you've been shot several times, come sit do- My god. MY GOD. THOSE ARE SHOES. LEAVE MY HOUSE. IMMEDIATELY. *BEATS WITH A BASEBALL BAT* DON'T EVER COME BACK AGAIN.
On December 15 2011 04:48 Namkung wrote: 저희가 시드를 줬던것은 퀀틱 게이밍의 프로토스 프로게이머 나니와 선수였지 스웨덴에서 게임을 잘하는 청년 요한 루세시는 아니였습니다.
the translation should be as follows for this line : We gave the seed to the Quantic Gaming's Protoss Player and NOT to the immature Swedish Player Johan Lucchesi who is good at the game.
You completely ignored the word 청년 in your translation which is the most important part in that statement. or what makes it very clear. From this, Mr.Chae is saying that Naniwa is very immature for what he did. and ultimately the person he gave the Code S seed to was simply a PRO PLAYER FROM QUANTIC GAMING and not the immature person that it turned out to be.
edit : the word 청년 in Korean means a teenager. and in this kind of context, the word can be used to describe the characteristics / attributes associated with a teenager . being immature
thanks namkung. quoted for visibility, plz OP, update. If you agree on the translation of course...
That is pretty much stretching what that word means. 청년 means young man and nothing more. I believe that word was just used to make a coherent sentence and nothing more.
On December 15 2011 04:35 Teriyaki-Boy wrote: I don't understand why, people are defending him for acting in such a way and trying to justified the game mean nothing....The game does mean something to the viewers and the fans of Naniwa and Nestea. People need to understand this is a business of entertainment and GOM wanna put out great content for their viewers and E-Sport to grow. I have to agree with the punishment, only caring for your own personal feeling and disregard your jobs is truly unprofessional.
To some viewers. To others, such as myself, it's a meaningless game, a consequence of a bad tournament format, that is being played out as show for the sake of the show. You're asking the players to fake it. That is almost impossible, as can be seen in how Hero didn't play to win in his match against DRG on monday, and almost always results in lackluster games, if not in trouble as we've seen here. It means you have to set a rather arbitrary rule for how much of an effort you're supposed to make. I wan't to see meaningful competition, matches that matter, not something akin to a wrestling match.
.Its like saying fuck your viewers, fuck your tournament. To act on one own feelings and not caring about other in a business environment is unacceptable and i stand by Gom for the Punishment.
This is what I just dont understand... YOu know what I consider "fuck you" to the viewers? Forcing a half assed game between two guys who arent focused down the vciewers throat just because you need to satisfy some artifical hype..
Nani simply felt like he coudlt deliver and didnt try to pretend because he didnt want to waste anyones time.
The tournament was round robin, presumably to let the viewers see all these awesome players play each other.
What is GOM supposed to do, "sorry viewers who paid $10 to see a tournament that's less than a week long, Nani doesn't feel like playing anymore"?
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
actually, if you're a shitty employee, you'll be fired, and if you're fired without cause or for spurious cause then you can probably sue for wrongful termination, and either way you can get severance pay, etc.
First off all, this is Korea, not the US.
Second of all, fired without cause? Hundreds of thousands saw Naniwa throw a game intentionally. Whether you agree with it or not, it breaks one of Gom's rules.
People need to understand that the Code S invite is a privilege, not a right.
Anyway, nothing of value was lost, Naniwa was bound to lose in the GSL format. He's strong when it comes down to two bases pushes, but his style is very one-dimensional. When players have the time to dissect his replays, that find easily a way to abuse this. He's 1-12 (let's say 1-11 as he just threw the last match) and the only time he won was 4gating to a PvP on a pretty boring BO win.
On December 15 2011 05:04 -DMducky wrote: Coming from a Asian background; If someone walked around my house with their shoes on I would have kicked that person out of my house too...
Overall in my opinion he was being disrespectful. Punishment is harsh, but it was necessary.
Still welcome in my house next time, just has to take the shoes off.
Really? Why not just ask to take their shoes off? If you invited me to a party I'd be worried I might be kicked out for whatever. Unless you'd have a really amazing party I might just pass just to be on the safe side.
Ahaha true true, I agree, should have informed him about the "shoes" in the first place.
On December 15 2011 05:04 -DMducky wrote: Coming from a Asian background; If someone walked around my house with their shoes on I would have kicked that person out of my house too...
Overall in my opinion he was being disrespectful. Punishment is harsh, but it was necessary.
Still welcome in my house next time, just has to take the shoes off.
Really? Why not just ask to take their shoes off?
Because if you KNOW you are supposed to take your shoes off, you are probably leaving them on just to be a dick.
On December 15 2011 03:13 Jhax[IRE] wrote: Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum.
Nestea is in the 1%!!!! We should Occupy his booth.
We have a lot of people spouting off here about what Naniwa deserves without taking into account his REPEATED acts of immaturity, BM, classlessness, etc etc.
If I do that kind of shit at my job, I get fired. If you don't think esports is going to value professionalism moving forward, you have another thing coming. The sooner we move out of our "we're not like other sports! it's the wild west weeeeee!" attitude, the better.
I applaud Chae for having the guts to deliver a well deserved message to someone who needs to work on his character. His work ethic and ability are outstanding -- now let's see him put some time into building some professional credibility and class.
On December 15 2011 04:02 HandleTaken wrote: I must admit my initial reaction upon hearing about this was: - Sigh, what did Naniwa do this time?
But after reading what actually transpired I think GOM overreacted.
Compare this to the Champions League soccer group game between Dinamo Zagreb vs Lyon. Zagreb had nothing to play for but Lyon did. Lyon won 7 - 1 and advanced from the group. Did Zagreb get thrown out of next CL-season? No, even though that match actually mattered.
I certainly won't subscribe to GSL after something like this happens.
Disciplinary actions regarding Dinamo Zagreb are still ongoing. The first probe for corruption was thrown off, but if Uefa let this pass than the champions league can say goodbye to it's integrity and you know it.
I'm sure Zagreb will get fined and that's exactly what should have happened to Naniwa. Make him pay back his Blizzard cup prize money in a fine (since GOM thinks Naniwa has shown unsportsmanlike behavior). Throwing Naniwa out of next GSL-season is just overdoing it.
Unless the fine is an substantional amount it won't actually archive anything. This kinda suspension at least has a chance to archive it's goal wihich is teaching Naniwa a lesson.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
Mad respect to gom for doing that because they knew they would receive backlash from the foreigner community, but still had the guts to stand by their principles. For that I applaud them and give them a GG!
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
You are the type of person that likes to be lied to rather than know the truth? He didnt break any rules all that matters.
On December 15 2011 03:13 Jhax[IRE] wrote: Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum.
No, it's not. At least, not if it's their job. If their job is to play a game, they play the game. They may half-ass it, but they don't no-ass it.
On December 15 2011 05:04 -DMducky wrote: Coming from a Asian background; If someone walked around my house with their shoes on I would have kicked that person out of my house too...
Overall in my opinion he was being disrespectful. Punishment is harsh, but it was necessary.
Still welcome in my house next time, just has to take the shoes off.
Really? Why not just ask to take their shoes off?
Because if you KNOW you are supposed to take your shoes off, you are probably leaving them on just to be a dick.
I agree with both of you responding to my post, but then again it's just assuming Naniwa has been to many asian "homes".
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
You forgot about the part where being a pro gamer doesn't mean anything about playing to win (the tournament) or making money, but driving up their viewer count with entertainment. That's what Mr. Chae thinks a pro-gamer is: A buff wrestler ready to dance on TV to make viewers happy. If you aren't willing to bullshit the audience with a 4 gate to appear like you give the slightest of fucks in a match you have no incentive to win and GOM TV has ALL of the incentive to create more content from, well then you're dishonorable and not even a pro gamer.
On December 15 2011 05:04 -DMducky wrote: Coming from a Asian background; If someone walked around my house with their shoes on I would have kicked that person out of my house too...
Overall in my opinion he was being disrespectful. Punishment is harsh, but it was necessary.
Still welcome in my house next time, just has to take the shoes off.
Really? Why not just ask to take their shoes off?
Because if you KNOW you are supposed to take your shoes off, you are probably leaving them on just to be a dick.
Eh no that's not a safe assumption. Some countries all people are walking indoors with shoes. Are you just gonna throw them out without even bothering to check if they don't realize they have insulted you? That's weird.
On December 15 2011 04:35 Teriyaki-Boy wrote: I don't understand why, people are defending him for acting in such a way and trying to justified the game mean nothing....The game does mean something to the viewers and the fans of Naniwa and Nestea. People need to understand this is a business of entertainment and GOM wanna put out great content for their viewers and E-Sport to grow. I have to agree with the punishment, only caring for your own personal feeling and disregard your jobs is truly unprofessional.
To some viewers. To others, such as myself, it's a meaningless game, a consequence of a bad tournament format, that is being played out as show for the sake of the show. You're asking the players to fake it. That is almost impossible, as can be seen in how Hero didn't play to win in his match against DRG on monday, and almost always results in lackluster games, if not in trouble as we've seen here. It means you have to set a rather arbitrary rule for how much of an effort you're supposed to make. I wan't to see meaningful competition, matches that matter, not something akin to a wrestling match.
.Its like saying fuck your viewers, fuck your tournament. To act on one own feelings and not caring about other in a business environment is unacceptable and i stand by Gom for the Punishment.
This is what I just dont understand... YOu know what I consider "fuck you" to the viewers? Forcing a half assed game between two guys who arent focused down the vciewers throat just because you need to satisfy some artifical hype..
Nani simply felt like he coudlt deliver and didnt try to pretend because he didnt want to waste anyones time.
The tournament was round robin, presumably to let the viewers see all these awesome players play each other.
What is GOM supposed to do, "sorry viewers who paid $10 to see a tournament that's less than a week long, Nani doesn't feel like playing anymore"?
"Sorry were not going to play a match when both players obviously cant deliver their a game and its a big waste of time, instead we will move on to the games that matter"
On December 15 2011 03:04 NHY wrote: "We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. We think that pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that. We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not to Johan Lucchesi from Sweden, who plays the game well."
loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool
No that makes them entertainers. Pro-gamers win games and money. Entertainers put on a show. And you make more money from entertainers then you do from pro-gamers.
On December 15 2011 04:48 Namkung wrote: 저희가 시드를 줬던것은 퀀틱 게이밍의 프로토스 프로게이머 나니와 선수였지 스웨덴에서 게임을 잘하는 청년 요한 루세시는 아니였습니다.
the translation should be as follows for this line : We gave the seed to the Quantic Gaming's Protoss Player and NOT to the immature Swedish Player Johan Lucchesi who is good at the game.
You completely ignored the word 청년 in your translation which is the most important part in that statement. or what makes it very clear. From this, Mr.Chae is saying that Naniwa is very immature for what he did. and ultimately the person he gave the Code S seed to was simply a PRO PLAYER FROM QUANTIC GAMING and not the immature person that it turned out to be.
edit : the word 청년 in Korean means a teenager. and in this kind of context, the word can be used to describe the characteristics / attributes associated with a teenager . being immature
thanks namkung. quoted for visibility, plz OP, update. If you agree on the translation of course...
On December 15 2011 05:14 K_Dilkington wrote: Mr Chae runs the GSL as some sort of gangster boss, ruling out completely arbitrary punishments left and right.
Please stop calling him Mr. He doesn't deserve that respect.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
So forcing a depressed and visibly upset person to play COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS games on stage because it was written down in your schedule is making "the word progamer matter?" Because im pretty sure that just belittles it.
On December 15 2011 05:04 -DMducky wrote: Coming from a Asian background; If someone walked around my house with their shoes on I would have kicked that person out of my house too...
Overall in my opinion he was being disrespectful. Punishment is harsh, but it was necessary.
Still welcome in my house next time, just has to take the shoes off.
Really? Why not just ask to take their shoes off?
Because if you KNOW you are supposed to take your shoes off, you are probably leaving them on just to be a dick.
Yeah, clearly my intention is to piss everyone off.
Or maybe I realized people usually took their shoes off but the floor was kinda cold and I didn't think you'd mind that much. But now that I'm kicked off I learned.
I don't get GOM, are they trying to shape every progamer as they like just like KEsPA? It's just stupid reason to do this, this man is not a robot but a human.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
So forcing a depressed and visibly upset person to play COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS games on stage because it was written down in your schedule is making "the word progamer matter?" Because im pretty sure that just belittles it.
Yep. Keep in mind Nestea was in more or less the same position. If he can do it why can't Nani?
On December 15 2011 04:35 Teriyaki-Boy wrote: I don't understand why, people are defending him for acting in such a way and trying to justified the game mean nothing....The game does mean something to the viewers and the fans of Naniwa and Nestea. People need to understand this is a business of entertainment and GOM wanna put out great content for their viewers and E-Sport to grow. I have to agree with the punishment, only caring for your own personal feeling and disregard your jobs is truly unprofessional.
To some viewers. To others, such as myself, it's a meaningless game, a consequence of a bad tournament format, that is being played out as show for the sake of the show. You're asking the players to fake it. That is almost impossible, as can be seen in how Hero didn't play to win in his match against DRG on monday, and almost always results in lackluster games, if not in trouble as we've seen here. It means you have to set a rather arbitrary rule for how much of an effort you're supposed to make. I wan't to see meaningful competition, matches that matter, not something akin to a wrestling match.
.Its like saying fuck your viewers, fuck your tournament. To act on one own feelings and not caring about other in a business environment is unacceptable and i stand by Gom for the Punishment.
This is what I just dont understand... YOu know what I consider "fuck you" to the viewers? Forcing a half assed game between two guys who arent focused down the vciewers throat just because you need to satisfy some artifical hype..
Nani simply felt like he coudlt deliver and didnt try to pretend because he didnt want to waste anyones time.
The tournament was round robin, presumably to let the viewers see all these awesome players play each other.
What is GOM supposed to do, "sorry viewers who paid $10 to see a tournament that's less than a week long, Nani doesn't feel like playing anymore"?
"Sorry were not going to play a match when both players obviously cant deliver their a game and its a big waste of time, instead we will move on to the games that matter"
I would have been pissed at GOM if they told me they were canceling the match. People paid to see the advertised matches. Suck it up and at least attempt to do something Nani. You get payed to play a game FFS.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
You forgot about the part where being a pro gamer doesn't mean anything about playing to win (the tournament) or making money, but driving up their viewer count with entertainment. That's what Mr. Chae thinks a pro-gamer is: A buff wrestler ready to dance on TV to make viewers happy. If you aren't willing to bullshit the audience with a 4 gate to appear like you give the slightest of fucks in a match you have no incentive to win and GOM TV has ALL of the incentive to create more content from, well then you're dishonorable and not even a pro gamer.
Isn't that what all spectator sports are about, to make viewers happy?
On December 15 2011 04:02 HandleTaken wrote: I must admit my initial reaction upon hearing about this was: - Sigh, what did Naniwa do this time?
But after reading what actually transpired I think GOM overreacted.
Compare this to the Champions League soccer group game between Dinamo Zagreb vs Lyon. Zagreb had nothing to play for but Lyon did. Lyon won 7 - 1 and advanced from the group. Did Zagreb get thrown out of next CL-season? No, even though that match actually mattered.
I certainly won't subscribe to GSL after something like this happens.
Disciplinary actions regarding Dinamo Zagreb are still ongoing. The first probe for corruption was thrown off, but if Uefa let this pass than the champions league can say goodbye to it's integrity and you know it.
I'm sure Zagreb will get fined and that's exactly what should have happened to Naniwa. Make him pay back his Blizzard cup prize money in a fine (since GOM thinks Naniwa has shown unsportsmanlike behavior). Throwing Naniwa out of next GSL-season is just overdoing it.
Well I agree with you on that I think a monetary fine and a stern warning would have been fine.
On December 15 2011 05:09 Tyrant0 wrote: By siding with GOM you're basically agreeing that shitty 4 gates/6 gates are fun to watch and GOM should provoke more with even MORE inconsequential matches.
Do you know how many times I've seen shitty 4 gates/6 gates win? A lot. A LOT. It is a valid strategy that can actually win the game. Sure, it makes for a short game with either the timing attack working out or not, but there is still at least a game. Watching 8-9 drones surround and kill 7 probes (the probes not being microed whatsoever) is not a game.
On December 15 2011 05:15 TORTOISE wrote: Naniwa threw a hissy fit, and now he suffers the consequences. Funny!
He played a game and gg'd. He didn't scream obscenities, he didn't flip anyone off, he finished a game as quickly as he possibly could and gtfo. People are acting like he ran around the studio urinating on fans. All this shit is over the fact that people were expecting him to canon rush instead of 7 probe rush. If he canon rushes that's a "legit" loss, his 7 probe rush just makes a mockery of the game!
On December 15 2011 05:04 -DMducky wrote: Coming from a Asian background; If someone walked around my house with their shoes on I would have kicked that person out of my house too...
Overall in my opinion he was being disrespectful. Punishment is harsh, but it was necessary.
Still welcome in my house next time, just has to take the shoes off.
Really? Why not just ask to take their shoes off?
Because if you KNOW you are supposed to take your shoes off, you are probably leaving them on just to be a dick.
Eh no that's not a safe assumption. Some countries all people are walking indoors with shoes. Are you just gonna throw them out without even bothering to check if they don't realize they have insulted you? That's weird.
But if you know what country you are in and have a good idea of what their customs and values are, its a different story.
Having been to Korea several times, played in events over there, and just having general knowledge of the Korean Esports scene, Naniwa had to know that this would not go over well.
To those wondering what rule was broken, here you are:
-Warning or disqualification - 경기중에 과격한 행동으로 상대 게이머나 관중들에게 위협을 가할 때 - During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours"
Now i'm sure most of you will say "omg thats so vague!! This doesnt fall under that category!!!"...
Gom decides what is offensive to the opponent or audience and what is abusive behavior.
Guys, there is a reason Naniwa is continually team hopping and kicked out of the EPS, IEM, and now GSL. Continually acting like an asshole will eventually lead to negative consequences.
On December 15 2011 05:11 IPA wrote: We have a lot of people spouting off here about what Naniwa deserves without taking into account his REPEATED acts of immaturity, BM, classlessness, etc etc.
If I do that kind of shit at my job, I get fired. If you don't think esports is going to value professionalism moving forward, you have another thing coming. The sooner we move out of our "we're not like other sports! it's the wild west weeeeee!" attitude, the better.
I applaud Chae for having the guts to deliver a well deserved message to someone who needs to work on his character. His work ethic and ability are outstanding -- now let's see him put some time into building some professional credibility and class.
Enter Nani apologists in 3..2..1.. -- GO!
Nice way to end your post, you are really giving your post credibility there.
And what punishment he deserved should be reserved for what he actually did for the current organization he's working for. And if you get fired for something like that I think you should look for a different job.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
You forgot about the part where being a pro gamer doesn't mean anything about playing to win (the tournament) or making money, but driving up their viewer count with entertainment. That's what Mr. Chae thinks a pro-gamer is: A buff wrestler ready to dance on TV to make viewers happy. If you aren't willing to bullshit the audience with a 4 gate to appear like you give the slightest of fucks in a match you have no incentive to win and GOM TV has ALL of the incentive to create more content from, well then you're dishonorable and not even a pro gamer.
Isn't that what all spectator sports are about, to make viewers happy?
being a pro means it's your job and you have or ought to have certain rights at your job, like not being promised things and then having them taken away without any process or structure to the decisions.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
So forcing a depressed and visibly upset person to play COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS games on stage because it was written down in your schedule is making "the word progamer matter?" Because im pretty sure that just belittles it.
Yep. Keep in mind Nestea was in more or less the same position. If he can do it why can't Nani?
I never knew giving up was part the resume of a professional gamer. What I do know is that real professionals go through ALL trials and tribulations no matter what is thrown at them and they try their best without their emotions getting involved. That is the difference between a professional and a skillful person.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
So forcing a depressed and visibly upset person to play COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS games on stage because it was written down in your schedule is making "the word progamer matter?" Because im pretty sure that just belittles it.
"Depressed and visibly upset" is certainly open to interpretation. It looked to me like he was just completely disinterested. Anyway yes, playing a game that you're scheduled to play, and presumably trying as well, is what being a professional means. You don't throw a juvenile tantrum because you can't win anymore.
On December 15 2011 04:59 GodZo wrote: Naniwa deserves the Code S Spot.
GOM made a mistake in that situation, because it was an insignificant match, and it was much more funny than any other "4 gate" or trash game...
Naniwa didn't offend or hurt anybody. GOM and other persons have not humor, and don't consider the game for what it is, a funny game, not much more.
He actually offended a lot of people. Have you seen what the Koreans are saying about this.
Agreed. Koreans have very different cultural norms and values. Not necessarily better or worse - just different. From a western perspective, this was bm and probably not a wise move, but ultimately forgivable. To them, this was a slap in the face.
I also believe that this harsh punishment was not based solely on his misbehaviour, but also on the way he had acted on other occasions.
- If I recall correctly, Naniwa did not "gg" when he lost his second game against Lucky in Code A
- If I recall correctly, Naniwa said before Blizzcup at the official press conference that it was "just another tournament" for him.
- In the TL-interview after this incident, he stated that he believed Koreans to overreact and that they should calm down.
NOTE: Please correct me if I said something wrong here, don't wanna spread false stuff.
I believe that these things might have influenced GOM's decision. Imagine he had excused for what he did in a formal and regretful manner. May be then things could have gone differently. But I can imagine Naniwa being generally perceived as disrespectful, so that GOM and the officials put on different scales when judging this incident.
On December 15 2011 05:04 -DMducky wrote: Coming from a Asian background; If someone walked around my house with their shoes on I would have kicked that person out of my house too...
Overall in my opinion he was being disrespectful. Punishment is harsh, but it was necessary.
Still welcome in my house next time, just has to take the shoes off.
Really? Why not just ask to take their shoes off?
Because if you KNOW you are supposed to take your shoes off, you are probably leaving them on just to be a dick.
Yeah, clearly my intention is to piss everyone off.
Or maybe I realized people usually took their shoes off but the floor was kinda cold and I didn't think you'd mind that much. But now that I'm kicked off I learned.
On December 15 2011 04:59 GodZo wrote: Naniwa deserves the Code S Spot.
GOM made a mistake in that situation, because it was an insignificant match, and it was much more funny than any other "4 gate" or trash game...
Naniwa didn't offend or hurt anybody. GOM and other persons have not humor, and don't consider the game for what it is, a funny game, not much more.
He actually offended a lot of people. Have you seen what the Koreans are saying about this.
Agreed. Koreans have very different cultural norms and values. Not necessarily better or worse - just different. From a western perspective, this was bm and probably not a wise move, but ultimately forgivable. To them, this was a slap in the face.
I also believe that this harsh punishment was not based solely on his misbehaviour, but also on the way he had acted on other occasions.
- If I recall correctly, Naniwa did not "gg" when he lost his second game against Lucky in Code A
- If I recall correctly, Naniwa said before Blizzcup at the official press conference that it was "just another tournament" for him.
- In the TL-interview after this incident, he stated that he believed Koreans to overreact and that they should calm down.
NOTE: Please correct me if I said something wrong here, don't wanna spread false stuff.
I believe that these things might have influenced GOM's decision. Imagine he had excused for what he did in a formal and regretful manner. May be then things could have gone differently. But I can imagine Naniwa being generally perceived as disrespectful, so that GOM and the officials put on different scales when judging this incident.
You make a pretty good point. Didn't take into account of other stuff he did outside of the game itself before.
On December 15 2011 04:48 Namkung wrote: 저희가 시드를 줬던것은 퀀틱 게이밍의 프로토스 프로게이머 나니와 선수였지 스웨덴에서 게임을 잘하는 청년 요한 루세시는 아니였습니다.
the translation should be as follows for this line : We gave the seed to the Quantic Gaming's Protoss Player and NOT to the immature Swedish Player Johan Lucchesi who is good at the game.
You completely ignored the word 청년 in your translation which is the most important part in that statement. or what makes it very clear. From this, Mr.Chae is saying that Naniwa is very immature for what he did. and ultimately the person he gave the Code S seed to was simply a PRO PLAYER FROM QUANTIC GAMING and not the immature person that it turned out to be.
edit : the word 청년 in Korean means a teenager. and in this kind of context, the word can be used to describe the characteristics / attributes associated with a teenager . being immature
thanks namkung. quoted for visibility, plz OP, update. If you agree on the translation of course...
yes, I saw it, which is why I added in the last line. Thanks for further translation work! It seems like the three of you (namkung, OP, you) agree reasonably on the translation though, apart from some details, and that should go in the OP, so we get three independent names behind it which is much more trustworthy, and sets a good precedent for future drama threads.
We still need to double check the transcript though, which only the OP has quoted without source so far.
But as I'm not a translator myself, i should probably stfu about it. Sorry.
I think someone said something comparing this to football/soccer.
I think that's a smart comparison. If you were in Nani's situation as a football team, and just didn't do anything and afk'd for the whole 90 minutes, how do you think people would react? We talk about E-Sport, now is the time to stay true to all our ramblings.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
You forgot about the part where being a pro gamer doesn't mean anything about playing to win (the tournament) or making money, but driving up their viewer count with entertainment. That's what Mr. Chae thinks a pro-gamer is: A buff wrestler ready to dance on TV to make viewers happy. If you aren't willing to bullshit the audience with a 4 gate to appear like you give the slightest of fucks in a match you have no incentive to win and GOM TV has ALL of the incentive to create more content from, well then you're dishonorable and not even a pro gamer.
Isn't that what all spectator sports are about, to make viewers happy?
The most spectators are there to watch a game that matters. A game in which people give their best not some meaningless half-assed nonsense.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
So forcing a depressed and visibly upset person to play COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS games on stage because it was written down in your schedule is making "the word progamer matter?" Because im pretty sure that just belittles it.
"Depressed and visibly upset" is certainly open to interpretation. It looked to me like he was just completely disinterested. Anyway yes, playing a game that you're scheduled to play, and presumably trying as well, is what being a professional means. You don't throw a juvenile tantrum because you can't win anymore.
Yup those backing naniwa are just as juvenile as he is in that moment. I seriously cannot believe people are supporting the notion of giving up because boohoo my emotions are running me down. This must be the real way of a professional anything. Just give up when you think you have nothing to gain from it but in reality you have much to gain.
Naniwa does not deserve to be called "professional" gamer. Not only did he betrayed his fans but also betrayed other fans of e-sports. E-sports is getting bigger every year because of supportive fans who want to watch entertaining matches between their favourite players. Pro players and pro leagues of any sports exist because fans desire to watch epic matches.
If an immature kid just like Naniwa keeps appearing in e-sports and continues to letting down his fans, the entire e-sports would be nothing but mockery in non e-sports fans.
Naniwa's immature and unprofessional action affects his team and sponsor as well. His behavior directly represents his team and sponsor. If he wants to act like lone prize hunter, then he should leave his team and should refuse all sponsors.
If he's going to keep acting like an ordinary emo gamer, then he should stick to online play and should enjoy his little daily BMs.
DO NOT SUPPORT THIS UNPROFESSIONAL AND IMMATURE PLAYER UNLESS HE APOLOGIZES IN PUBLIC. IT ONLY BRINGS ENTIRE E-SPORTS DOWN.
On December 15 2011 04:51 Jono7272 wrote: Nicely said Mr. Chae. Definitely agree that's how a pro gamer should act.
But going from that to denying him the Code S spot is quite harsh. Then again, what other option was there, a fine was not an option seeing as Naniwa didn't break any rules.
So if you don't break a a rule, you can't be issued a small punishment, but a harsh one is OK? I do not follow that logic.
His Code S spot was never guaranteed, it was an invite seed. For his attitude they changed their mind about inviting him, that's all.
What should be the punishment? As obviously GOM feel he acted immaturely and unprofessional. A fine is not really an option for this kind of misconduct.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
So forcing a depressed and visibly upset person to play COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS games on stage because it was written down in your schedule is making "the word progamer matter?" Because im pretty sure that just belittles it.
Yep. Keep in mind Nestea was in more or less the same position. If he can do it why can't Nani?
Maybe because he understands his own culture better and knows better? Or maybe because you were assuming he wouldn't throw a meaningless game, because he has a track record to do that(and i don't mean against MVP) Like triple expanding, one of them to the gold, is the same thing as worker rushing it just takes 8 mins to lose instead of 2. You have no idea what Nestea was going to do in that game, all we know is he didn't decide to worker rush.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
You forgot about the part where being a pro gamer doesn't mean anything about playing to win (the tournament) or making money, but driving up their viewer count with entertainment. That's what Mr. Chae thinks a pro-gamer is: A buff wrestler ready to dance on TV to make viewers happy. If you aren't willing to bullshit the audience with a 4 gate to appear like you give the slightest of fucks in a match you have no incentive to win and GOM TV has ALL of the incentive to create more content from, well then you're dishonorable and not even a pro gamer.
Isn't that what all spectator sports are about, to make viewers happy?
The most spectators are there to watch a game that matters. A game in which people give their best not some meaningless half-assed nonsense.
People go to regular season games after their team is out of the running. Do you think they expect their team to keep trying? Of course they do, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered to pay money to go to the game.
to those saying this was a meaningless game. naniwa v nestea beef from was it ipl or mlg was huge. and wasnt this match THE MATCH to settle that score? meaningless as in advancing sure, but this game mattered to the fans a whole a lot.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
You forgot about the part where being a pro gamer doesn't mean anything about playing to win (the tournament) or making money, but driving up their viewer count with entertainment. That's what Mr. Chae thinks a pro-gamer is: A buff wrestler ready to dance on TV to make viewers happy. If you aren't willing to bullshit the audience with a 4 gate to appear like you give the slightest of fucks in a match you have no incentive to win and GOM TV has ALL of the incentive to create more content from, well then you're dishonorable and not even a pro gamer.
Ultimately like with all sports, the fans are the most important part. Without fans watching, they could not be paid to be progamers in the first place.
Naturally, pro gamers will put themselves first and that's not wrong, but there's a certain limit with how far you can take that. The standard is a lot lower in the west due to cultural values than it is in korea, so it's understandable the koreans were more offended.
This isn't just for progamers either as athletes get called out all the time for being selfish and unprofessional. Just look at Terrel Owens in the NFL over the years and all the stuff he's done over the years. If you act immature and unprofessional you will get called out on that.
Simply put, if you're worried that you may be forced to play a game that you feel is unnecessary and unimportant, then don't apply for and play in GSL.
The good thing that came out of this is that it is now extremely clear what the expectations are of you if you decide to play in GSL. Either conduct yourself as a professional or GTFO.
On December 15 2011 04:51 Jono7272 wrote: Nicely said Mr. Chae. Definitely agree that's how a pro gamer should act.
But going from that to denying him the Code S spot is quite harsh. Then again, what other option was there, a fine was not an option seeing as Naniwa didn't break any rules.
So if you don't break a a rule, you can't be issued a small punishment, but a harsh one is OK? I do not follow that logic.
His Code S spot was never guaranteed, it was an invite seed. For his attitude they changed their mind about inviting him, that's all.
What should be the punishment? As obviously GOM feel he acted immaturely and unprofessional. A fine is not really an option for this kind of misconduct.
I think teamliquid should to an in-depth article about this and close all other threads with misinformation/partial information/inaccurate translations. This is getting confusing.
On December 15 2011 04:35 Teriyaki-Boy wrote: I don't understand why, people are defending him for acting in such a way and trying to justified the game mean nothing....The game does mean something to the viewers and the fans of Naniwa and Nestea. People need to understand this is a business of entertainment and GOM wanna put out great content for their viewers and E-Sport to grow. I have to agree with the punishment, only caring for your own personal feeling and disregard your jobs is truly unprofessional.
To some viewers. To others, such as myself, it's a meaningless game, a consequence of a bad tournament format, that is being played out as show for the sake of the show. You're asking the players to fake it. That is almost impossible, as can be seen in how Hero didn't play to win in his match against DRG on monday, and almost always results in lackluster games, if not in trouble as we've seen here. It means you have to set a rather arbitrary rule for how much of an effort you're supposed to make. I wan't to see meaningful competition, matches that matter, not something akin to a wrestling match.
.Its like saying fuck your viewers, fuck your tournament. To act on one own feelings and not caring about other in a business environment is unacceptable and i stand by Gom for the Punishment.
This is what I just dont understand... YOu know what I consider "fuck you" to the viewers? Forcing a half assed game between two guys who arent focused down the vciewers throat just because you need to satisfy some artifical hype..
Nani simply felt like he coudlt deliver and didnt try to pretend because he didnt want to waste anyones time.
The tournament was round robin, presumably to let the viewers see all these awesome players play each other.
What is GOM supposed to do, "sorry viewers who paid $10 to see a tournament that's less than a week long, Nani doesn't feel like playing anymore"?
No, they should say:
"After yesterdays events, we would like to apologize to our viewers. In the course of our tournament, in more than one match one of the players participating did not play to win. In the most severe case, the player naniwa probe-rushed to a certain defeat. We do not accept nor condone this behavior. However, we accept that our tournament-format, with matches in which one or both players were already out of the tournament contributed to the situation. As such, we have come to the dicision to penalize the player Naniwa with a fine of 1000$ for not playing to win in the most obvious manner possible. We believe that by this action, and in the future being mindful of the negative consequences of certain tournament formats, we have addressed what many perceived as a disrespectful show by the player naniwa, while at the same time accepting our own culpability. We hope that everyone will accept this solution to an unfortunate situation. Please direct any comments to our forum at blablabla, where well be answering questions and comments."
Add to it an apology and explanation from naniwa and things wouldn't have gotten this out of hand.
On December 15 2011 03:13 Jhax[IRE] wrote: Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum.
wha? have you worked a day in your life?
people should be required to answer "yes" to this question before they comment on the matter.
everybody who works has had days there they really didn't feel like it, but you suck it up and do it anyway because it's your job. Naniwa didn't suck it up. I can understand defending Naniwa himself (i'm sure he's a nice guy and all) but his actions in this instance are inexcusable. Hopefully he learns his lesson from this fiasco.
Gom creates a tournament with a terrible elimination system and Naniwa's action humiliated them. Mr. Chae is trying to save face by removing Naniwa from Code S. Both of them are handling the situation terribly. How can they say that a match fix like CoCa's has the same level of consequence as not playing a game that doesn't matter? It's complete nonsense.
On December 15 2011 05:24 justsayinbro wrote: to those saying this was a meaningless game. naniwa v nestea beef from was it ipl or mlg was huge. and wasnt this match THE MATCH to settle that score? meaningless as in advancing sure, but this game mattered to the fans a whole a lot.
no, that's just what drama queens think.
It's nothing more than a meaningless game or all of a sudden, every match is a grudge match LoL, cuz everyone has lost to everyone else before. Let's turn it all into useless, meaningless hype....
On December 15 2011 05:11 IPA wrote: We have a lot of people spouting off here about what Naniwa deserves without taking into account his REPEATED acts of immaturity, BM, classlessness, etc etc.
If I do that kind of shit at my job, I get fired. If you don't think esports is going to value professionalism moving forward, you have another thing coming. The sooner we move out of our "we're not like other sports! it's the wild west weeeeee!" attitude, the better.
I applaud Chae for having the guts to deliver a well deserved message to someone who needs to work on his character. His work ethic and ability are outstanding -- now let's see him put some time into building some professional credibility and class.
Enter Nani apologists in 3..2..1.. -- GO!
Nice way to end your post, you are really giving your post credibility there.
And what punishment he deserved should be reserved for what he actually did for the current organization he's working for. And if you get fired for something like that I think you should look for a different job.
If I said something like "Joke organization" in a work email or gave a half-assed effort in one of my projects, you think my employer should keep me on with no repercussions? What companies have you worked for my friend? I was trying to draw a parallel to me, the working stiff, and I think I did so accurately.
Sorry if you didn't enjoy my "Nani apologists" line. I just get tired of people thinking that esports stars can act however they want, whenever they want, and not face the music eventually. There are about 16,085 of them in this thread already. Cheers.
On December 15 2011 05:04 -DMducky wrote: Coming from a Asian background; If someone walked around my house with their shoes on I would have kicked that person out of my house too...
Overall in my opinion he was being disrespectful. Punishment is harsh, but it was necessary.
Still welcome in my house next time, just has to take the shoes off.
Really? Why not just ask to take their shoes off?
Because if you KNOW you are supposed to take your shoes off, you are probably leaving them on just to be a dick.
Yeah, clearly my intention is to piss everyone off.
Or maybe I realized people usually took their shoes off but the floor was kinda cold and I didn't think you'd mind that much. But now that I'm kicked off I learned.
On December 15 2011 05:24 justsayinbro wrote: to those saying this was a meaningless game. naniwa v nestea beef from was it ipl or mlg was huge. and wasnt this match THE MATCH to settle that score? meaningless as in advancing sure, but this game mattered to the fans a whole a lot.
Of course there was so much meaning to the match itself and for Naniwa. How could this not be a defining moment of getting comfortable in the GSL booth, against Nestea in front of hundreds and thousands of viewers on the biggest sc2 stage? How is this NOT prep for GSL Code S? Nani was immature, unprofessional, disrespectful and many other words I can think of but seriously I still cannot believe people back the notion of giving up in that situation as a PROFESSIONAL.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
So forcing a depressed and visibly upset person to play COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS games on stage because it was written down in your schedule is making "the word progamer matter?" Because im pretty sure that just belittles it.
"Depressed and visibly upset" is certainly open to interpretation. It looked to me like he was just completely disinterested. Anyway yes, playing a game that you're scheduled to play, and presumably trying as well, is what being a professional means. You don't throw a juvenile tantrum because you can't win anymore.
Yup those backing naniwa are just as juvenile as he is in that moment. I seriously cannot believe people are supporting the notion of giving up because boohoo my emotions are running me down. This must be the real way of a professional anything. Just give up when you think you have nothing to gain from it but in reality you have much to gain.
Have you ever thought that maybe we aren't defending Naniwa... I don't even particually like Naniwa. Im just against the way Gom has handled this. First making them play the game to begin with was retarded. Then revoking his GUARANTEED CODE S SEED, and claiming that it was just an invite( a decision they came to after the Naniwa incedent) is downright criminal.
Yeah doa made a great and informative post. Props to doa!
yes, but he is wrong in one point GOM didn't give spot in BlizzCup to Naniwa. they gave it to two best players at providence (whoever that might have been)
What GSL did was just as unprofessional as Nani if not more so. The game was inconsequential, and winning/losing was all the choice of the two players. I mean Nestea threw away an entire GSL finals and is not punished but Nani throws away a game that doesn't matter and he is punished. Scumbag_GSL.jpg
On December 15 2011 03:04 NHY wrote: "We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. We think that pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that. We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not to Johan Lucchesi from Sweden, who plays the game well."
loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool
No that makes them entertainers. Pro-gamers win games and money. Entertainers put on a show. And you make more money from entertainers then you do from pro-gamers.
A professional player makes money of playing games. Who generate the money that he earn from playing? That's right, it's the fans that generate interest for sponsors to sponsor players, teams and leagues. So yes, a professional player is professional in the sense that he makes money by playing the game. He is en entertainer in the sense that eSports fans need to be entertained in order for him to have a income at all.
Was the foreign BW scene large? Could foreign players like HuK and Idra earn the salaries they now earn then? No, I'm fairly sure they couldn't.They have the status and income they have because of their fans and followers of eSports. They should should at least play their games properly and conduct themselves professionally as thanks to their fans, teams and sponsors. That should be the bare minimum, at least in my opinion.
On December 15 2011 04:35 Teriyaki-Boy wrote: I don't understand why, people are defending him for acting in such a way and trying to justified the game mean nothing....The game does mean something to the viewers and the fans of Naniwa and Nestea. People need to understand this is a business of entertainment and GOM wanna put out great content for their viewers and E-Sport to grow. I have to agree with the punishment, only caring for your own personal feeling and disregard your jobs is truly unprofessional.
To some viewers. To others, such as myself, it's a meaningless game, a consequence of a bad tournament format, that is being played out as show for the sake of the show. You're asking the players to fake it. That is almost impossible, as can be seen in how Hero didn't play to win in his match against DRG on monday, and almost always results in lackluster games, if not in trouble as we've seen here. It means you have to set a rather arbitrary rule for how much of an effort you're supposed to make. I wan't to see meaningful competition, matches that matter, not something akin to a wrestling match.
.Its like saying fuck your viewers, fuck your tournament. To act on one own feelings and not caring about other in a business environment is unacceptable and i stand by Gom for the Punishment.
This is what I just dont understand... YOu know what I consider "fuck you" to the viewers? Forcing a half assed game between two guys who arent focused down the vciewers throat just because you need to satisfy some artifical hype..
Nani simply felt like he coudlt deliver and didnt try to pretend because he didnt want to waste anyones time.
The tournament was round robin, presumably to let the viewers see all these awesome players play each other.
What is GOM supposed to do, "sorry viewers who paid $10 to see a tournament that's less than a week long, Nani doesn't feel like playing anymore"?
No, they should say:
"After yesterdays events, we would like to apologize to our viewers. In the course of our tournament, in more than one match one of the players participating did not play to win. In the most severe case, the player naniwa probe-rushed to a certain defeat. We do not accept nor condone this behavior. However, we accept that our tournament-format, with matches in which one or both players were already out of the tournament contributed to the situation. As such, we have come to the dicision to penalize the player Naniwa with a fine of 1000$ for not playing to win in the most obvious manner possible. We believe that by this action, and in the future being mindful of the negative consequences of certain tournament formats, we have addressed what many perceived as a disrespectful show by the player naniwa, while at the same time accepting our own culpability. We hope that everyone will accept this solution to an unfortunate situation. Please direct any comments to our forum at blablabla, where well be answering questions and comments."
Add to it an apology and explanation from naniwa and things wouldn't have gotten this out of hand.
No, things got out of hand because someone posted a completely inaccurate translation of Mr. Chae's statement which fueled anger at GOM.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
You forgot about the part where being a pro gamer doesn't mean anything about playing to win (the tournament) or making money, but driving up their viewer count with entertainment. That's what Mr. Chae thinks a pro-gamer is: A buff wrestler ready to dance on TV to make viewers happy. If you aren't willing to bullshit the audience with a 4 gate to appear like you give the slightest of fucks in a match you have no incentive to win and GOM TV has ALL of the incentive to create more content from, well then you're dishonorable and not even a pro gamer.
Isn't that what all spectator sports are about, to make viewers happy?
If you're into wrestling, yeah. To say a sport is all about making fans happy completely discredits how entertaining a sport inherently is. It's basically saying it's okay for players to half-ass games in order to drag them out longer. ex. Huk vs Nestea
On December 15 2011 05:23 UnprofessionalNNW wrote: Naniwa does not deserve to be called "professional" gamer. Not only did he betrayed his fans but also betrayed other fans of e-sports. E-sports is getting bigger every year because of supportive fans who want to watch entertaining matches between their favourite players. Pro players and pro leagues of any sports exist because fans desire to watch epic matches.
If an immature kid just like Naniwa keeps appearing in e-sports and continues to letting down his fans, the entire e-sports would be nothing but mockery in non e-sports fans.
Naniwa's immature and unprofessional action affects his team and sponsor as well. His behavior directly represents his team and sponsor. If he wants to act like lone prize hunter, then he should leave his team and should refuse all sponsors.
If he's going to keep acting like an ordinary emo gamer, then he should stick to online play and should enjoy his little daily BMs.
DO NOT SUPPORT THIS UNPROFESSIONAL AND IMMATURE PLAYER UNLESS HE APOLOGIZES IN PUBLIC. IT ONLY BRINGS ENTIRE E-SPORTS DOWN.
Punishment where punishment is due. But I believe that taking away the Code S spot from him, which he got for his performance at MLG, is out of proportion for what he actually did.
As I said above: Naniwa showed questionable and quite disrespectful behaviour on other occassions. I believe that this is why GOM actually chose such dramatical actions. Also when he was confronted with this incident, he apologized on the one hand but at the same time said Koreans would overreact. Such statements don't get you any friends either. I personally think that if Naniwa would have officially apologized to GOM and the viewers of the tournament in a way more remorseful manner, the punishment would have been less severe.
people keep talking about how naniwa *should have* acted or whether what he did was *wrong* - it needs to be clear that this isn't really the issue, no matter whether people agree or disagree about it - what's at issue is whether gom has the power to withdraw his seed (or his "invitation", if you will)
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
So forcing a depressed and visibly upset person to play COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS games on stage because it was written down in your schedule is making "the word progamer matter?" Because im pretty sure that just belittles it.
"Depressed and visibly upset" is certainly open to interpretation. It looked to me like he was just completely disinterested. Anyway yes, playing a game that you're scheduled to play, and presumably trying as well, is what being a professional means. You don't throw a juvenile tantrum because you can't win anymore.
Yup those backing naniwa are just as juvenile as he is in that moment. I seriously cannot believe people are supporting the notion of giving up because boohoo my emotions are running me down. This must be the real way of a professional anything. Just give up when you think you have nothing to gain from it but in reality you have much to gain.
Classy comment, calling him and people who disagree with you juvenile just fuels the whole "Koreans are sensitive" stuff that is getting spewed in these discussions. In any case, reported.
On December 15 2011 05:30 TiTanIum_ wrote: I have a question, which might seem stupid, so I´m sorry about it.
Had Nani did the same thing, only in the middle of a GSL season, would he be DQ´ed from it, or just get a slap in the wrist?
Unless the format has changed I'm not sure you can get a situation where both he and his opponent could no longer go through. If he did it in a match that mattered then he'd get an even worse punishment imo.
On December 15 2011 04:47 careohx wrote: Oh and the rule "you need to act as a gamer". What defines a gamer? Based on this rule they can remove anyone for whatever reason. We cant have things like this and talk about PROFESSIONALISM.
It means you try in your games and take on the responsibility of representing your team/sport/fans/sponsors by being a gamer and entertainer first, selfish money grubbing mentality second.
Do you have any indication that Naniwa is after money ? Or , as would be much more consistent with what we know about him, he cares about winning (and I mean tournaments, not irrelevant games). Frankly people touting professionalism and bashing money grabbing are funny. Professionalism in sports is based on the fact that people perform better if motivated by a lot of money
On December 15 2011 05:30 TiTanIum_ wrote: I have a question, which might seem stupid, so I´m sorry about it.
Had Nani did the same thing, only in the middle of a GSL season, would he be DQ´ed from it, or just get a slap in the wrist?
It wouldn't happen in the middle of the season because GSL matches actually mattered. If it some how did happen, he probably would get DQ'ed and I'd agree with it. In this case, it was a BS show match that meant nothing.
I agree with this but one thing bothers me. How could anyone not understand that, no matter how it looks to others, he obviously didnt do this to disrespect anyone and didnt get the impact of this.
Maybe koreans wouldve liked to see that game but I certainly feel exactly like naniwa. The poor guy gets misunderstood all day and has some issues communicating, just sit down with him and explain what they think was wrong with his actions and everything is fine. Show that youre grown up and professional..
I know that I wouldve done the exact same thing as nani did and not because I wanted to piss anyone off but because for me, from a european point of view, it looks like the only logical thing to do.
I just dont get why people cant understand that he didnt get the impact of his action and act like he did this out of spite or because he enjoys pissing people off.
Yeah doa made a great and informative post. Props to doa!
yes, but he is wrong in one point GOM didn't give spot in BlizzCup to Naniwa. they gave it to two best players at providence (whoever that might have been)
just to be clear
Actually IIRC originally only the first place from Providence was going to get an invite. Unfortunately they changed http://www.gomtv.net/2011blizzardcup/news/66704 to reflect how they adjusted it. MVP has 3 of the 10 spots so they needed to come up with other people to invite. They could have very well just made all the extra spots the top X in GSL points, so in effect by choosing which tournament results to award the extra 2 spots, they gave Nani an invite.
On December 15 2011 04:46 Hubris wrote: I've yet to hear a clear and coherent argument stating why Gom is wrong removing a player that disrespected them from their tourny. I think some here need to tone down the fanboy rage/national pride and just accept that he broke cultural norms for a serious sport and got reprimanded for it. It's really that simple. If he's code S worthy he'll do well in up/downs and it wont matter anyway.
name another sport where you can be thrown out for "breaking cultural norms" with no specific rule
I cannot, I can however, name several others where unprofessional behavior is punished. ;p
People need to stop being biased to either side and start discussing things that really matter.
1. Is what Naniwa did against the rules? A: Debatable, but yes. There is a rule that gives gom the right to deny right to participation to those the gomtv staff deems "unfit for a gamer", and there's other that basically says you shall not offend the opponent or the viewers.
2. Let's say it isn't, then what Naniwa did SHOULD be against the rules? A: Abso-fuckin-lutely. That kind of behavior is a disgrace to the game, to the organization, to the opponent and to the viewers.
All the rest(whether the format is shit, cultural clash blablabla) is secondary to this. Was Naniwa wrong? YES!
On December 15 2011 04:35 Teriyaki-Boy wrote: I don't understand why, people are defending him for acting in such a way and trying to justified the game mean nothing....The game does mean something to the viewers and the fans of Naniwa and Nestea. People need to understand this is a business of entertainment and GOM wanna put out great content for their viewers and E-Sport to grow. I have to agree with the punishment, only caring for your own personal feeling and disregard your jobs is truly unprofessional.
To some viewers. To others, such as myself, it's a meaningless game, a consequence of a bad tournament format, that is being played out as show for the sake of the show. You're asking the players to fake it. That is almost impossible, as can be seen in how Hero didn't play to win in his match against DRG on monday, and almost always results in lackluster games, if not in trouble as we've seen here. It means you have to set a rather arbitrary rule for how much of an effort you're supposed to make. I wan't to see meaningful competition, matches that matter, not something akin to a wrestling match.
.Its like saying fuck your viewers, fuck your tournament. To act on one own feelings and not caring about other in a business environment is unacceptable and i stand by Gom for the Punishment.
This is what I just dont understand... YOu know what I consider "fuck you" to the viewers? Forcing a half assed game between two guys who arent focused down the vciewers throat just because you need to satisfy some artifical hype..
Nani simply felt like he coudlt deliver and didnt try to pretend because he didnt want to waste anyones time.
The tournament was round robin, presumably to let the viewers see all these awesome players play each other.
What is GOM supposed to do, "sorry viewers who paid $10 to see a tournament that's less than a week long, Nani doesn't feel like playing anymore"?
No, they should say:
"After yesterdays events, we would like to apologize to our viewers. In the course of our tournament, in more than one match one of the players participating did not play to win. In the most severe case, the player naniwa probe-rushed to a certain defeat. We do not accept nor condone this behavior. However, we accept that our tournament-format, with matches in which one or both players were already out of the tournament contributed to the situation. As such, we have come to the dicision to penalize the player Naniwa with a fine of 1000$ for not playing to win in the most obvious manner possible. We believe that by this action, and in the future being mindful of the negative consequences of certain tournament formats, we have addressed what many perceived as a disrespectful show by the player naniwa, while at the same time accepting our own culpability. We hope that everyone will accept this solution to an unfortunate situation. Please direct any comments to our forum at blablabla, where well be answering questions and comments."
Add to it an apology and explanation from naniwa and things wouldn't have gotten this out of hand.
No, things got out of hand because someone posted a completely inaccurate translation of Mr. Chae's statement which fueled anger at GOM.
GOM has brought in on themselves by going back and forth on whether naniwa was banned, had his qualification revoked, had his qualification revoked earlier as part of the overhaul of the system (though they didn't inform anyone, not even naniwa, of the changes), or whether he was never actually qualified. GOM has not got its story straight, that is quite obvious.
First of all I am in no way backing Naniwa it was a stupid decision and he shouldn't have done it. But after researching this tournament and gomtv's rules for their tournaments I believe this punishment is completely undeserved.
After about 2 hours of research and searching i could not find a single ruleset for the blizzard cup gomtv invitational but I did find the GSL ruleset which I will assume that GOM used since they didnt release a ruleset for this tournament.
Tournament Rules Game Play Rules
1) All matches will be played with ‘StarCraft II – Wings of Liberty’ (12+ version, rated by GRB). 2) All matches will be played with the latest patch available at the time of the game play. 3) All matches will follow the tournament format. Ro16 : Bo3, Ro8~Semifinals : Bo5, Final : Bo7 4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool. 5) Players must disable Toast Notifications in the Battle.net options. 6) All players must set their status to Busy. 7) All games will be observed by 2 GOMTV Observers. 8) Observer will host all games and players must notify the observer that they are ready via the waiting room’s chatting window. 9) There should be no communication between the players other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' and etc to surrender the game. 10) No known bugs or cheats are allowed during game play.
Equipment and Other Rules
All players must arrive at the tournament venue no later than 15 minutes prior to the start of the game. All players are allowed 15 minutes to adjust their personal settings. All players are allowed to user their personal equipment. The list of the personal equipment allowed is as follows: 1) Keyboard 2) Mouse 3) Mouse Pad 4) Mouse Stand 5) Earphone 6) Mouse Driver Player must use the Wide LCD monitor provided by GOMTV. (Player is able to adjust the resolution or graphic option.) Player must use the computer provided by GOMTV. All players must put on the earphone first then put on the headset provided by GOMTV.
Game Pause and Replay Rules
When the player feels that a game should be paused, he or she should press the buzzer in the game booth immediately. When the buzzer is pressed, the observer and the referee will pause the game. A player is able to request for a pause under the following conditions: 1) When the equipment is not functioning or malfunctioning (Keyboard, Mouse, Monitor, PC and etc.) 2) When a major game related bug has been observed during the game play 3) When the game sound has been turned off and the player is able to hear the noise outside of the booth 4) When the player experiences other factors that he or she believes that might greatly affect the game play If the game has been paused due to the reasons above, the host will resolve the issue and promptly resume the game. In case one of the following events occurs, the game in play will be tossed out and the game will be replayed. 1) When the game is paused due to equipment malfunction, power outage, network error and etc that are required for the progress of the tournament 2) When the computer used by the player malfunctions or shuts down 3) When a game related bug that was previously unknown or clearly unintentional occurs 4) When the game play can no longer be continued due to the disturbance and noise caused by behaviors including trespassing on to the stage, throwing of stuff, violet languages or actions 5) When it becomes impossible to determine win or lose based on the content of the game play 6) When the game needs to be paused due to unavoidable circumstances such as natural disaster 7) In case the PCs of the referee and observer drop resulting in the inability to broadcast, the game should be resumed and the match result will be recognized if the players are still able to continue the game. The host and the referee are able to act flexibly depending on the situation
Automatic Loss Rule
When the friend log-in notification pops up during the game play When the player receives a whisper (message) during the game play from another user (failure to set the status to busy) Sending chat messages other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' to declare the loss during the game. Displaying violent behaviors to threaten the opposing player or the audience. Arriving at the tournament venue after 15 minutes prior to the start of the game. Delaying games intentionally even after the allotted time (15 minutes) for personal settings. Using known bugs and cheats during the game play.
I completely agree with Liquid'tyler, GOM can't just make up rules because they dont like what naniwa did. It sets a bad president for all of esports, by either pointing out that they dont think their tournaments completely through before they hold them, or that they dont abide by the rules they set out and/or bend the rules to punish somebody for something they don't like.
Either way it's all bad news for Esports, patiently waiting on a response from nani, gom, and mlg.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
So forcing a depressed and visibly upset person to play COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS games on stage because it was written down in your schedule is making "the word progamer matter?" Because im pretty sure that just belittles it.
"Depressed and visibly upset" is certainly open to interpretation. It looked to me like he was just completely disinterested. Anyway yes, playing a game that you're scheduled to play, and presumably trying as well, is what being a professional means. You don't throw a juvenile tantrum because you can't win anymore.
Yup those backing naniwa are just as juvenile as he is in that moment. I seriously cannot believe people are supporting the notion of giving up because boohoo my emotions are running me down. This must be the real way of a professional anything. Just give up when you think you have nothing to gain from it but in reality you have much to gain.
Have you ever thought that maybe we aren't defending Naniwa... I don't even particually like Naniwa. Im just against the way Gom has handled this. First making them play the game to begin with was retarded. Then revoking his GUARANTEED CODE S SEED, and claiming that it was just an invite( a decision they came to after the Naniwa incedent) is downright criminal.
Gom did not suddenly change the rule and force them play like slaves.
It was a scheduled Televised game with TV sponsors and most of all it was end of the year tournamt best vs best.
Naniwa knew the format and agreed to play. Why? Maybe he thought he wouldnt go 0-3? so when he found out he got destroyed and go 0-3, he threw hissy fit.
If you agreed to play retarded game, who's the retard?
Also if you go check on MLG providence thread, it was clearly stated, there was no league exchange program for MLG providence. However, Gom considered Naniwa a worthy invite.
On December 15 2011 04:46 Hubris wrote: I've yet to hear a clear and coherent argument stating why Gom is wrong removing a player that disrespected them from their tourny. I think some here need to tone down the fanboy rage/national pride and just accept that he broke cultural norms for a serious sport and got reprimanded for it. It's really that simple. If he's code S worthy he'll do well in up/downs and it wont matter anyway.
name another sport where you can be thrown out for "breaking cultural norms" with no specific rule
I cannot, I can however, name several others where unprofessional behavior is punished. ;p
People need to stop being biased to either side and start discussing things that really matter.
1. Is what Naniwa did against the rules? A: Debatable, but yes. There is a rule that gives gom the right to deny right to participation to those the gomtv staff deems "unfit for a gamer", and there's other that basically says you shall not offend the opponent or the viewers.
2. Let's say it isn't, then what Naniwa did SHOULD be against the rules? A: Abso-fuckin-lutely. That kind of behavior is a disgrace to the game, to the organization, to the opponent and to the viewers.
All the rest(whether the format is shit, cultural clash blablabla) is secondary to this. Was Naniwa wrong? YES!
...why are we still discussing this?
"unfit for a gamer" is the kind of rule that ends up being called "void for vagueness." it's not at all fair to have such a vague rule and apply it arbitrarily. the reason is that people can't anticipate what is against the rules so they won't know what they're allowed to do and not allowed to do. someone doing something wrong does not mean that someone else has the power to break a promise made to them.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
So forcing a depressed and visibly upset person to play COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS games on stage because it was written down in your schedule is making "the word progamer matter?" Because im pretty sure that just belittles it.
"Depressed and visibly upset" is certainly open to interpretation. It looked to me like he was just completely disinterested. Anyway yes, playing a game that you're scheduled to play, and presumably trying as well, is what being a professional means. You don't throw a juvenile tantrum because you can't win anymore.
Yup those backing naniwa are just as juvenile as he is in that moment. I seriously cannot believe people are supporting the notion of giving up because boohoo my emotions are running me down. This must be the real way of a professional anything. Just give up when you think you have nothing to gain from it but in reality you have much to gain.
Classy comment, calling him and people who disagree with you juvenile just fuels the whole "Koreans are sensitive" stuff that is getting spewed in these discussions. In any case, reported.
I pretty much agree, it's kind of sad to see people resorting to this kind of meaningless arguments. This is not a communist forum. People are entitled to their own opinions. Insulting whoever disagrees with you makes neither your argument more solid nor your argument correct. It's just inappropriate and immature.
On December 15 2011 05:31 o[twist] wrote: people keep talking about how naniwa *should have* acted or whether what he did was *wrong* - it needs to be clear that this isn't really the issue, no matter whether people agree or disagree about it - what's at issue is whether gom has the power to withdraw his seed (or his "invitation", if you will)
Actually, what is at issue is whether GOM should have revoked his seed, not whether they have the power to. GOM clearly believes that they have the power to, and we can't really question that power unless we see a contract that says they are limited in some way that stops them from revoking this seed. These contracts were not public, and in all likelihood will never be made public.
As such, there isn't anything to discuss regarding whether GOM has this power or not. The more pertinent and debatable issue is whether GOM was correct in using its power against Naniwa in this way, and the community appears divided on this point.
On December 15 2011 05:09 Tyrant0 wrote: By siding with GOM you're basically agreeing that shitty 4 gates/6 gates are fun to watch and GOM should provoke more with even MORE inconsequential matches.
Do you know how many times I've seen shitty 4 gates/6 gates win? A lot. A LOT. It is a valid strategy that can actually win the game. Sure, it makes for a short game with either the timing attack working out or not, but there is still at least a game. Watching 8-9 drones surround and kill 7 probes (the probes not being microed whatsoever) is not a game.
You completely missed the point, and in essence are agreeing that it's okay for a tournament to facilitate a format in which players have an incentive to half-ass it only 30% and not the ultra obvious 1%. Enjoy the show, that's basically what it is and not a real game.
On December 15 2011 05:30 TiTanIum_ wrote: I have a question, which might seem stupid, so I´m sorry about it.
Had Nani did the same thing, only in the middle of a GSL season, would he be DQ´ed from it, or just get a slap in the wrist?
It wouldn't happen in the middle of the season because GSL matches actually mattered. If it some how did happen, he probably would get DQ'ed and I'd agree with it. In this case, it was a BS show match that meant nothing.
What I mean is: "throwing" a game in the Blizzard Cup with a concurrent GSL season in which he is playing.
On December 15 2011 05:31 o[twist] wrote: people keep talking about how naniwa *should have* acted or whether what he did was *wrong* - it needs to be clear that this isn't really the issue, no matter whether people agree or disagree about it - what's at issue is whether gom has the power to withdraw his seed (or his "invitation", if you will)
Actually, what is at issue is whether GOM should have revoked his seed, not whether they have the power to. GOM clearly believes that they have the power to, and we can't really question that power unless we see a contract that says they are limited in some way that stops them from revoking this seed. These contracts were not public, and in all likelihood will never be made public.
As such, there isn't anything to discuss regarding whether GOM has this power or not. The more pertinent and debatable issue is whether GOM was correct in using its power against Naniwa in this way, and the community appears divided on this point.
if the contract *doesn't* limit gom in some way, then it doesn't provide mlg with anything at all, now does it? that's not much of a contract - "you agree to do this, and i'll agree to do that, unless i don't feel like it" - that's quite the opposite of a contract
Yeah doa made a great and informative post. Props to doa!
yes, but he is wrong in one point GOM didn't give spot in BlizzCup to Naniwa. they gave it to two best players at providence (whoever that might have been)
just to be clear
Actually IIRC originally only the first place from Providence was going to get an invite. Unfortunately they changed http://www.gomtv.net/2011blizzardcup/news/66704 to reflect how they adjusted it. MVP has 3 of the 10 spots so they needed to come up with other people to invite. They could have very well just made all the extra spots the top X in GSL points, so in effect by choosing which tournament results to award the extra 2 spots, they gave Nani an invite.
it was announced before providence, doesn't matter why they changed their plan
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
So forcing a depressed and visibly upset person to play COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS games on stage because it was written down in your schedule is making "the word progamer matter?" Because im pretty sure that just belittles it.
"Depressed and visibly upset" is certainly open to interpretation. It looked to me like he was just completely disinterested. Anyway yes, playing a game that you're scheduled to play, and presumably trying as well, is what being a professional means. You don't throw a juvenile tantrum because you can't win anymore.
Yup those backing naniwa are just as juvenile as he is in that moment. I seriously cannot believe people are supporting the notion of giving up because boohoo my emotions are running me down. This must be the real way of a professional anything. Just give up when you think you have nothing to gain from it but in reality you have much to gain.
Have you ever thought that maybe we aren't defending Naniwa... I don't even particually like Naniwa. Im just against the way Gom has handled this. First making them play the game to begin with was retarded. Then revoking his GUARANTEED CODE S SEED, and claiming that it was just an invite( a decision they came to after the Naniwa incedent) is downright criminal.
Gom did not suddenly change the rule and force them play like slaves.
It was a scheduled Televised game with TV sponsors and most of all it was end of the year tournamt best vs best.
Naniwa knew the format and agreed to play. Why? Maybe he thought he wouldnt go 0-3? so when he found out he got destroyed and go 0-3, he threw hissy fit.
If you agreed to play retarded game, who's the retard?
Also if you go check on MLG providence thread, it was clearly stated, there was no league exchange program for MLG providence. However, Gom considered Naniwa a worthy invite.
You think Naniwa didn't complain about having to play the game beforehand? And how many times must this fucking be stated. IT WAS NOT AN INVITE. IT WAS A GUARANTEED SEED FROM THE MLG-GSL EXCHANGE PROGRAM. IT ONLY BECAME AN "INVITE" AFTER NANIWA PROBE RUSHED. They are calling it an invite now because its a major slap in the face to MLG to fucking just revoke the GUARANTEED SEED from their tournament.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
So forcing a depressed and visibly upset person to play COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS games on stage because it was written down in your schedule is making "the word progamer matter?" Because im pretty sure that just belittles it.
"Depressed and visibly upset" is certainly open to interpretation. It looked to me like he was just completely disinterested. Anyway yes, playing a game that you're scheduled to play, and presumably trying as well, is what being a professional means. You don't throw a juvenile tantrum because you can't win anymore.
Yup those backing naniwa are just as juvenile as he is in that moment. I seriously cannot believe people are supporting the notion of giving up because boohoo my emotions are running me down. This must be the real way of a professional anything. Just give up when you think you have nothing to gain from it but in reality you have much to gain.
Have you ever thought that maybe we aren't defending Naniwa... I don't even particually like Naniwa. Im just against the way Gom has handled this. First making them play the game to begin with was retarded. Then revoking his GUARANTEED CODE S SEED, and claiming that it was just an invite( a decision they came to after the Naniwa incedent) is downright criminal.
Gom did not suddenly change the rule and force them play like slaves.
It was a scheduled Televised game with TV sponsors and most of all it was end of the year tournamt best vs best.
Naniwa knew the format and agreed to play. Why? Maybe he thought he wouldnt go 0-3? so when he found out he got destroyed and go 0-3, he threw hissy fit.
If you agreed to play retarded game, who's the retard?
Also if you go check on MLG providence thread, it was clearly stated, there was no league exchange program for MLG providence. However, Gom considered Naniwa a worthy invite.
You think Naniwa didn't complain about having to play the game beforehand? And how many times must this fucking be stated. IT WAS NOT AN INVITE. IT WAS A GUARANTEED SEED FROM THE MLG-GSL EXCHANGE PROGRAM. IT ONLY BECAME AN "INVITE" AFTER NANIWA PROBE RUSHED. They are calling it an invite now because its a major slap in the face to MLG to fucking just revoke the GUARANTEED SEED from their tournament.
Dude settle down. No matter how many caps you type it isnt going to change the facts.
On December 15 2011 05:31 o[twist] wrote: people keep talking about how naniwa *should have* acted or whether what he did was *wrong* - it needs to be clear that this isn't really the issue, no matter whether people agree or disagree about it - what's at issue is whether gom has the power to withdraw his seed (or his "invitation", if you will)
Actually, what is at issue is whether GOM should have revoked his seed, not whether they have the power to. GOM clearly believes that they have the power to, and we can't really question that power unless we see a contract that says they are limited in some way that stops them from revoking this seed. These contracts were not public, and in all likelihood will never be made public.
As such, there isn't anything to discuss regarding whether GOM has this power or not. The more pertinent and debatable issue is whether GOM was correct in using its power against Naniwa in this way, and the community appears divided on this point.
if the contract *doesn't* limit gom in some way, then it doesn't provide mlg with anything at all, now does it? that's not much of a contract - "you agree to do this, and i'll agree to do that, unless i don't feel like it" - that's quite the opposite of a contract
Please post the contract at issue so we can properly interpret that. Failing this, this is idle speculation.
We do not know whether and what the contract between GOM and MLG may have looked like. It could take a large number of forms, and it could have a large number of clauses. Typical contracts between businesses in a lot of instances can span hundreds of pages with a large number of clauses to cover every eventuality. This possibility may be covered within the contract.
Edit: Also, the contract can limit GOM in a huge number of ways. You are suggesting a very specific limitation--namely, that GOM must allow Naniwa into their next tournament, in Code S, regardless of actions Naniwa takes on GOM stages which GOM may believe to be disrespectful and unprofessional to GOM and the community.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
So forcing a depressed and visibly upset person to play COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS games on stage because it was written down in your schedule is making "the word progamer matter?" Because im pretty sure that just belittles it.
"Depressed and visibly upset" is certainly open to interpretation. It looked to me like he was just completely disinterested. Anyway yes, playing a game that you're scheduled to play, and presumably trying as well, is what being a professional means. You don't throw a juvenile tantrum because you can't win anymore.
Yup those backing naniwa are just as juvenile as he is in that moment. I seriously cannot believe people are supporting the notion of giving up because boohoo my emotions are running me down. This must be the real way of a professional anything. Just give up when you think you have nothing to gain from it but in reality you have much to gain.
Have you ever thought that maybe we aren't defending Naniwa... I don't even particually like Naniwa. Im just against the way Gom has handled this. First making them play the game to begin with was retarded. Then revoking his GUARANTEED CODE S SEED, and claiming that it was just an invite( a decision they came to after the Naniwa incedent) is downright criminal.
Gom did not suddenly change the rule and force them play like slaves.
It was a scheduled Televised game with TV sponsors and most of all it was end of the year tournamt best vs best.
Naniwa knew the format and agreed to play. Why? Maybe he thought he wouldnt go 0-3? so when he found out he got destroyed and go 0-3, he threw hissy fit.
If you agreed to play retarded game, who's the retard?
Also if you go check on MLG providence thread, it was clearly stated, there was no league exchange program for MLG providence. However, Gom considered Naniwa a worthy invite.
You think Naniwa didn't complain about having to play the game beforehand? And how many times must this fucking be stated. IT WAS NOT AN INVITE. IT WAS A GUARANTEED SEED FROM THE MLG-GSL EXCHANGE PROGRAM. IT ONLY BECAME AN "INVITE" AFTER NANIWA PROBE RUSHED. They are calling it an invite now because its a major slap in the face to MLG to fucking just revoke the GUARANTEED SEED from their tournament.
If you don't like the schedule or don't want to attend for any other reason, don't go and give someone who wants to the chance to.
RIGHT. To 99% of people this is a game. but whether it is a game or not if its your job and your being payed for it you have to do it. thats life!!!! If you're boss tells you to go somewhere and represent the company you're working for you go there whether you want to or not and you do everything you can do give a good impression on youre company. if a sportsman walks onto the field and just stands there twiddling his thumbs then he gets neck deep in shit. i think people are forgetting that pro gaming is a profession with big name sponsers and there is alot of money being paid out. if you cant be bothered to atleast try youre best you should not be aloud to continue as a pro gamer IMO.
On December 15 2011 05:30 TiTanIum_ wrote: I have a question, which might seem stupid, so I´m sorry about it.
Had Nani did the same thing, only in the middle of a GSL season, would he be DQ´ed from it, or just get a slap in the wrist?
It wouldn't happen in the middle of the season because GSL matches actually mattered. If it some how did happen, he probably would get DQ'ed and I'd agree with it. In this case, it was a BS show match that meant nothing.
What I mean is: "throwing" a game in the Blizzard Cup with a concurrent GSL season in which he is playing.
Probably not, it's much more severe to pull them out of a tournament they're more much likely to win, and if they did I'd definitely disagree more vehemently with GOM than I do now.
On December 15 2011 05:41 Derrida wrote: So what is the fucking verdict? I have been reading like 5 threads which say different things. Will naniwa be in Code S next season?
For the moment no he will not get a code s seed, don't think gom will change their mind, it's too late
Imho, he had it coming. Seems like arrogance finally took its toll on one of the strongest toss outside Korea. Naniwa's awful bravado was childish, unprofessional and disrespectful to everyone: viewers, Blizz cup organizers, Nestea as well as to his team. He could have put up a fight, and, probably, take a game off Nestea. He could have at least done smth totally crazy (remember Stephano v Brat_Ok?). Instead he behaved like a 10-year-old. Undoubtedly, everyone has a right for a moment of weakness. It's just that a true professional doesn't exercise this right at work.
On December 15 2011 04:59 Noktix wrote: Gom owes Naniwa nothing.
Guess what - if you bite the hand that feeds you, you won't be fucking fed. If Naniwa wants to throw games in the biggest Esports tourney in the world, then he should accept the consequences of that.
There really is nothing to argue here. If you're a shitty employee then you won't be employed.
You are wrong... Gom owes a lot of people something here.
Gom owes Naniwa treatment deserving of a programer. Had any other tournament(imagine NASL) forced a progamer who had just poured his heart and soul into 3 heartwrenching losses, to play a meaningless game on stage, they would have gotten so much shit the tables would be completely turned on this discussion.
Gom owes the viewers, you know those of us who pay fucking 200 dollars a year to watch and support their tournament, meaningful games instead of putting THAT up on stage.
Gom owes MLG an adherence to their fucking contract and to not de-legitamize their entire tournament with this crap. When a korean player takes the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG its a GUARANTEED SEED. When Naniwa wins the GUARANTEED SEED from MLG, and then does something stupid(even when GOM is as much to blame) its no longer a GUARANTEED SEED and is now a conditional invite.
You're right, gom does owe people something. They owe it to the people to make the word progamer matter and actually mean something and hold it up to a certain standard.. They owe it to the people that being respectful and honourable still has meaning in today's society. With their removal of naniwa's code s invite, they achieved that for me.
So forcing a depressed and visibly upset person to play COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS games on stage because it was written down in your schedule is making "the word progamer matter?" Because im pretty sure that just belittles it.
"Depressed and visibly upset" is certainly open to interpretation. It looked to me like he was just completely disinterested. Anyway yes, playing a game that you're scheduled to play, and presumably trying as well, is what being a professional means. You don't throw a juvenile tantrum because you can't win anymore.
Yup those backing naniwa are just as juvenile as he is in that moment. I seriously cannot believe people are supporting the notion of giving up because boohoo my emotions are running me down. This must be the real way of a professional anything. Just give up when you think you have nothing to gain from it but in reality you have much to gain.
Have you ever thought that maybe we aren't defending Naniwa... I don't even particually like Naniwa. Im just against the way Gom has handled this. First making them play the game to begin with was retarded. Then revoking his GUARANTEED CODE S SEED, and claiming that it was just an invite( a decision they came to after the Naniwa incedent) is downright criminal.
Gom did not suddenly change the rule and force them play like slaves.
It was a scheduled Televised game with TV sponsors and most of all it was end of the year tournamt best vs best.
Naniwa knew the format and agreed to play. Why? Maybe he thought he wouldnt go 0-3? so when he found out he got destroyed and go 0-3, he threw hissy fit.
If you agreed to play retarded game, who's the retard?
Also if you go check on MLG providence thread, it was clearly stated, there was no league exchange program for MLG providence. However, Gom considered Naniwa a worthy invite.
You think Naniwa didn't complain about having to play the game beforehand? And how many times must this fucking be stated. IT WAS NOT AN INVITE. IT WAS A GUARANTEED SEED FROM THE MLG-GSL EXCHANGE PROGRAM. IT ONLY BECAME AN "INVITE" AFTER NANIWA PROBE RUSHED. They are calling it an invite now because its a major slap in the face to MLG to fucking just revoke the GUARANTEED SEED from their tournament.
If you don't like the schedule or don't want to attend for any other reason, don't go and give someone who wants to the chance to.
wtf are u even talking about. That literally has absolutely nothing to do with my post.
I agree with this but one thing bothers me. How could anyone not understand that, no matter how it looks to others, he obviously didnt do this to disrespect anyone and didnt get the impact of this.
Maybe koreans wouldve liked to see that game but I certainly feel exactly like naniwa. The poor guy gets misunderstood all day and has some issues communicating, just sit down with him and explain what they think was wrong with his actions and everything is fine. Show that youre grown up and professional..
I know that I wouldve done the exact same thing as nani did and not because I wanted to piss anyone off but because for me, from a european point of view, it looks like the only logical thing to do.
I just dont get why people cant understand that he didnt get the impact of his action and act like he did this out of spite or because he enjoys pissing people off.
He didn't do it to insult the fans or NesTea, but I am almost convinced he did it to insult GOMtv. He was upset about the format, and whether or not the format was right is irrelevant, because GOMtv runs the tournament, and they can do as they please with it.
On December 15 2011 05:41 Derrida wrote: So what is the fucking verdict? I have been reading like 5 threads which say different things. Will naniwa be in Code S next season?
NaNiwa still can compete with Code A and earn Code S hard way.
On December 15 2011 05:41 Derrida wrote: So what is the fucking verdict? I have been reading like 5 threads which say different things. Will naniwa be in Code S next season?
For the moment no he will not get a code s seed, don't think gom will change their mind, it's too late
I agree with this but one thing bothers me. How could anyone not understand that, no matter how it looks to others, he obviously didnt do this to disrespect anyone and didnt get the impact of this.
Maybe koreans wouldve liked to see that game but I certainly feel exactly like naniwa. The poor guy gets misunderstood all day and has some issues communicating, just sit down with him and explain what they think was wrong with his actions and everything is fine. Show that youre grown up and professional..
I know that I wouldve done the exact same thing as nani did and not because I wanted to piss anyone off but because for me, from a european point of view, it looks like the only logical thing to do.
I just dont get why people cant understand that he didnt get the impact of his action and act like he did this out of spite or because he enjoys pissing people off.
I do agree with that
I do get that he acted childly about this match, and should have played it.
But peoples also have to understand that he was eliminated... 30 minutes ago. And that he wanted to leave the studio, not play a show match against Nestea. It was an emotional mistake, not a way to say "F U" to anyone.
Giving him a warning, ok. But denying him from is spot that he won by showing great result lately, is just overkill. They would not have done that if it was IdrA or HuK doing it, would they?
And inviting IdrA instead of Naniwa... I love IdrA, but he is not really the best example of Korean Honor and Pro-gaming standard... he is probably even worst than Naniwa in this regard. So why inviting him instead of Naniwa, because of a lack of "professionalism", if we all knew, GOMTV too i'm sure, that IdrA would probably not even have played that game?
You should try to see this situation from the GomTV perspective too. They get a lot of flak from the korean community because of the invite system. There's plenty of players in code A/B that are way better than the foreigners pros, yet they stagnate on the team houses because a bunch of horrendous foreigners get invited. Stephano and Fenix are the two "new" foreigners with the best record on GSL tournaments, with a lousy 50%. Idra has a surprinsingly good 60% winrate, but he need to see his new games. HuK, Thorzain, QxC and Jinro are on the 44 - 46% thanks to the GSTL games against several code B players or some really old games. Naniwa has a 8% winrate!
So, you have this guy, that gets invited over and over to the GSL tournaments, and he gets trashed every single time. And this guy, at the supposedly biggest tournament of the year, decided to give the middle finger to all and throws the game in less than two minutes. This kind of behavior should enrage all the korean pros and pro-ams, and gives them a good reason to think that foreigners should just win their seeds playing the hard way just like them. Naniwa should just think about the consequences of his actions.
PS: I don't like Idra for the same reasons i dont like Naniwa, but stats give a compelling argument to explain why was he seeded. Naniwa is 1-12, Sase is 1-6, Idra is 16-10 at televised matches
On December 15 2011 05:51 legaton wrote: You should try to see this situation from the GomTV perspective too. They get a lot of flak from the korean community because of the invite system. There's plenty of players in code A/B that are way better than the foreigners pros, yet they stagnate on the team houses because a bunch of horrendous foreigners get invited. Stephano and Fenix are the two "new" foreigners with the best record on GSL tournaments, with a lousy 50%. Idra has a surprinsingly good 60% winrate, but he need to see his new games. HuK, Thorzain, QxC and Jinro are on the 44 - 46% thanks to the GSTL games against several code B players or some really old games. Naniwa has a 8% winrate!
So, you have this guy, that gets invited over and over to the GSL tournaments, and he gets trashed every single time. And this guy, at the supposedly biggest tournament of the year, decided to give the middle finger to all and throws the game in less than two minutes. This kind of behavior should enrage all the korean pros and pro-ams, and gives them a good reason to think that foreigners should just win their seeds playing the hard way just like them. Naniwa should just think about the consequences of his actions.
The question isn't whether GOM has a right to be upset. Of course they do. But that doesn't automatically justify any decision they take.
There is some real irony when GOM talks about professionalism, while making up some sort of official sounding statement about some arbitrary, objective standards, they just conjured up. No matter how official you try to sound, when you just do this post-event, you are indeed being unprofessional yourselves.
As a tournament manager, or series of tournaments as GOM is, you just have to let the games be games. As long as there is no proof someone is being payed to throw games, you have to let them be. Someone who constantly throws games and gives things up will eventually knock themselves out of competitive play. To even begin to creep into "people should play like this" and all kinds of objective crap about standards and entertainment- is tainting the game more than someone just giving up. This is also part of the game.
Aside from regulation, about what Naniwa did- which by standards of playing the game, is fine... I don't agree with. As a pro gamer who gets payed to do this, and sent to far off countries to compete, at least he could have treated the game like a serious practice session. Under the big lights in a live event, to test his ability and stamina against one of the best Zergs in the world, would have at LEAST been worth it alone. So, I don't exactly agree with Naniwa either.
Part of me thinks though, he did it for the controversy, and knows that, in the long run, stuff like this is good for Esports. This is our version of celebrity gossip divorces and tabloid BS- as little as any of us would like to admit it.
I agree with this but one thing bothers me. How could anyone not understand that, no matter how it looks to others, he obviously didnt do this to disrespect anyone and didnt get the impact of this.
Maybe koreans wouldve liked to see that game but I certainly feel exactly like naniwa. The poor guy gets misunderstood all day and has some issues communicating, just sit down with him and explain what they think was wrong with his actions and everything is fine. Show that youre grown up and professional..
I know that I wouldve done the exact same thing as nani did and not because I wanted to piss anyone off but because for me, from a european point of view, it looks like the only logical thing to do.
I just dont get why people cant understand that he didnt get the impact of his action and act like he did this out of spite or because he enjoys pissing people off.
He didn't do it to insult the fans or NesTea, but I am almost convinced he did it to insult GOMtv. He was upset about the format, and whether or not the format was right is irrelevant, because GOMtv runs the tournament, and they can do as they please with it.
I see no insult there at all. He didn't want to play the game, was forced to, and so did the fastest thing to get him out of it. As Liquid'Tyler has said, plenty of other players have done this, just Naniwa did it quicker and more directly than anyone else. How many other players have 6pooled games, have done retarded cheeses that have little to no chance of succeeding, and not been punished? All Naniwa did was make his disinterest painfully obvious, and for that he gets his INVITE seed revoked.
프로게이머라는 직업이 사실은 이겨서 상금을 타가서 그걸로 업을 삼는다고 프로게이머라고 생각하지 않아요 프로게이머라는 직업은 승부를 가리는 것들을 시청자분들에게 보여주고 그것들을 시청자 분들이 열광하고 그것을 통해서 승부를 가리는 것을 직업으로 삼는 선수들을 프로게이머라고 저희가 생각을하고 있기 때문에 저희가 시드를 줬던것은 퀀틱 게이밍의 프로토스 프로게이머 나니와 선수였지 스웨덴에서 게임을 잘하는 청년 요한 루세시는 아니였습니다.
i guess some people are confused about what last statement meant.
some of the points have been lost in translation.
basically Mr Chae is trying to make a point that as a progamer, your first priority should not be winning the prize money. As a progamer, main priority should be playing games infront of crowd (regardless of significance of the match or prize money).
-This is the mind set Korean Esports scene has. Not some job that gives quarter million salary. (ref. IMMVP).
When Mr Chae said, "저희가 시드를 줬던것은 퀀틱 게이밍의 프로토스 프로게이머 나니와 선수였지 스웨덴에서 게임을 잘하는 청년 요한 루세시는 아니였습니다."
translated as "Gave the seed to quantic gaming protoss 'progamer' Naniwa, not to 'good player' Johan Lucchesi.
As a Korean, i interpret this statement as; "Naniwa is a good player, but his behavior was unprofessional."
As a personal statement, I believe people are taking this way out of proportion as if they haven't gotten any action in 2011; just needing a place to vent. The punishment is not severe. Naniwa just needs to go through qualifier to get into code S instead of direct seeding from foreign tournaments.
I just think of this situation as a good example for gamers to conduct more professional behavior in the future.
several episodes back in SotG, Artosis stated that some gamers treat Casters like piece of shit. I hope this situation with Naniwa will be a wake up call to some gamers.
What it all comes down to is Confucius culture. Korea is one of the hardcore Confucius countries. This is 200 b.c. and since then it has spread even wider.
On December 15 2011 04:46 Hubris wrote: I've yet to hear a clear and coherent argument stating why Gom is wrong removing a player that disrespected them from their tourny. I think some here need to tone down the fanboy rage/national pride and just accept that he broke cultural norms for a serious sport and got reprimanded for it. It's really that simple. If he's code S worthy he'll do well in up/downs and it wont matter anyway.
name another sport where you can be thrown out for "breaking cultural norms" with no specific rule
I cannot, I can however, name several others where unprofessional behavior is punished. ;p
People need to stop being biased to either side and start discussing things that really matter.
1. Is what Naniwa did against the rules? A: Debatable, but yes. There is a rule that gives gom the right to deny right to participation to those the gomtv staff deems "unfit for a gamer", and there's other that basically says you shall not offend the opponent or the viewers.
2. Let's say it isn't, then what Naniwa did SHOULD be against the rules? A: Abso-fuckin-lutely. That kind of behavior is a disgrace to the game, to the organization, to the opponent and to the viewers.
All the rest(whether the format is shit, cultural clash blablabla) is secondary to this. Was Naniwa wrong? YES!
...why are we still discussing this?
It is being discussed because the things that you state with certainty are your subjective opinions, not any objective facts.
1) He did nothing against the rules. What you cited just shows that GOM also did nothing against the rules by punishing him, not that Naniwa actually did something against the rules, because he did not.
2) Ok, and how are you going to phrase the rule that will ensure that ? Would love to see that. I find his behavior stupid in light of the fact that he should have considered the consequences, but I found the incident funny and if someone is offended by it they should look at real life offending issues, there is plenty of real issues, not this being offended by a guy playing a game in entertaining industry for crying out loud. Are people that easily offended by nothing, really ?
On December 15 2011 04:40 o[twist] wrote: i don't think anybody's mentioned this, but the rule that was used to disqualify naniwa (of course, this is subject to translation issues) was "shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviors." do we have any reason to think that this would refer to in-game actions rather than, say, chat or ceremonies? has this rule ever been applied before and would naniwa have had any reason to think that it would have applied to this action? these are all things you need to take into consideration when you ask whether this is fair to naniwa and to mlg.
in my eyes this is clearly an arbitrary and capricious use of the rule and it's frankly unconscionable to treat players like this. fuck naniwa for throwing a game, sure, but i have serious doubts about it being against that rule, at least as stated in english.
I don't even like Naniwa, but I agree 100%.
I watched the entire series and I have to say, I was more amused by the probe rush than anything.
(read: The match had zero meaning, and even Tastosis thought they would just skip the match, because both of them were already eliminated, and it would not affect Blizzard Cup in the slightest manner.)
Offended so much that you have to harshly penalize a player? Give a warning and that'd be enough.
Seriously, GOM just lowered itself to Nani's level.
LoL, it feels like some childish eye for an eye bs - you hurt my feelings; therefore, I will bend the rules to hurt you too.
butthurt much?
You obviously didn't watch the match. Tastosis wasn't even casting that night, buddy.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/images/ezine/Confucianism200BC.jpg)
