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On December 15 2011 04:05 xsevR wrote:
GOMTV trolling hard to invite Idra over Naniwa based on professionalism...
They must have a different definition of "professional" in Korea, maybe we need a better translation? Money is what distinguishes amateurs and professionals; Maybe a loss in foreign viewership will illustrate this.
Yea, I'd say a professional is a person who doesnt just throw a game, that is being televised to thousands of viewers all over the world, just because you went 0-3 and dont give a fuck about others. Does that fit your description of professional?
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On December 15 2011 04:05 Skyreaper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:02 bLooD. wrote:
GOM´s statements are such jokes.... no 1 would even care if it happened at any other events. GSL is for the pro-gamers only not like any other amateur league.
I do think this needs to be considered. Gom are trying to make the GSL the bar-none gold standard for Starcraft 2. It is THE tournament that every player in the world should want to participate in to prove they are the best, and if they haven't competed in GSL, then it doesn't matter how well they do because GSL is better than every other tournament they've ever participated in.
And largely they've succeeded in creating that mentality. For all Naniwa's foreign successes, his four successive Code A slaughters hang over him like a cloud.
So they care (GSL that is) because they think his actions reflect negatively on their tournament, which they take extremely seriously and expect the players to do likewise.
This isn't about manner mules or ceremonies after the games are over, it's about acting professional INSIDE the game, and they feel what he did, and especially being shown using only one hand, looking bored, not microing, was disrespecting the game and the tournament and not the mark of a pro gamer.
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Didn't similar issue raised during NASL season 1? Where players still has to play game when it cannot advanced, and a player was missing, which caused a pretty big uproar, this is the same thing.
You play because it's your job, their salary came from the sponsor who earns from viewership, so if you don't give a crap about a tournament that was designed for viewers, then it make sense that he isn't fit for the job.
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On December 15 2011 04:02 bLooD. wrote:
GOM´s statements are such jokes.... no 1 would even care if it happened at any other event.
Why does GOM have to conform your standards of other events? Why can't true professionalism be enforced? Man, Starleague and Proleague would have benefited 10fold if they had players do what Naniwa did in seemingly meaningly matches.
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On December 15 2011 04:07 MrCon wrote:
Are people arguing about if the code S spot was "an invitation" or not ?
The code S spot was Naniwa's, no need to argue otherwise. Just read the LR thread of his MLG, you'll see eveyone cheering because his win in semies meant he won code S.This has also be comfirmed like 100 times, please do not rewrite history.
Naniwa was a code S player, it was so for GOM, for Liquipedia, for MLG, for everyone.
no it was not, reading the news posted directly from gom. who would know better than gom themselves?
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I'm sorry, but am I missing something? It seems like this statement is still calling Naniwa an amateur. Anyone with even a modicum of skill at understanding diplomatic language recognizes that this is a punishment, and Mr. Chae is calling Naniwa an unprofessional money hunter in his inference that because Naniwa didn't have an opportunity to make money he didn't play to win a match.
What's more, Mr. Chae is claiming that pro-gamers entire vocation should be for the victory (merits will be ignored). I have to ask what victory when you're unprofessional tournament yields nothing games? The idea that every match should be played to win is ridiculous. You often play a fast match where you have poor odds (due to opponent, map, etc) to save energy for later matches. Hell, players ALLL the time GG out of a game that is by no means over because they are too far down in position. (And I don't mean dramatically like Idra, everyone does it) The only dishonor here is GOM for putting together a tournament that would put players in such unfortunate positions.
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On December 15 2011 03:56 Fandango wrote:
I really dislike that they're co-opting 'progamer' to mean the thing which helps the business side of things out (i.e. appeasing the fans and acting in a pre-approved manner), over meaning players who play the game at its highest competitive level, for the competition itself, using prize money to support that dedication. It's irritating because it can easily turn into a slippery slope where we end up with the kind of stilted interviews and lack of personality of BW events for fear of upsetting the infrastructure that supports them. The globalisation of starcraft has been fantastic for distributing the power of the tournament organisers to control things for ulterior motives that benefit them over the players, but the GSL having the best players means it has the most leverage to do things that satisfy their agenda, whether it's good for the players or not.
The weird way people put korean culture on a pedastal is really depressing too, where they think because it's korean they have a right to do things that negatively impact the scene as a whole. In general this whole thing has been one of the most depressing series of events to read on TL and honestly makes me more apathetic about people in general than ever. The amount of bizarre justifications ranging from conservative talking points that make no sense, to pro korean xenophobia, to 'for the greater esports good', to basing arguments off extrapolated opinions with little basis in fact. There's barely been 1 in 10 posts that hasn't included something that isn't a horrible abortion of logic and language.
I agree 100% with the first paragraph, but not with some others. There obviously is a "greater good of esports" in some situations and it's not unreasonable to ask players to stop and consider it. Maybe not by threatening their careers but by favouring players who make an effort on the entertainment side for invite only tournaments.
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On December 15 2011 04:06 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:05 Delicious Insanity wrote:On December 15 2011 03:59 gullberg wrote:On December 15 2011 03:53 Delicious Insanity wrote:
I'm repeating myself, but whatever.
If you have a global tournament, try and find a middle road. Don't enforce the punishment that's normal for 1 of the cultures involved. Please, in what country would this kind of behavior ever be acceptable? In what workplace would you find someone bitching about a rule not existing about doing "random disrespectful thing". This is not about culture, this is about professionalism and taking your job seriously. MLG should've punished Naniwa aswell because he ridiculed them. I don't it's too much to ask to be manner and nice to the people around you while you're at work. I am talking about the punishment, because I feel it's to harsh. He should be penalized in one way or the other, but I feel that taking away his code s seed is to harsh. He never had the seed he was a candidate for it, they just took him out of the running.
Thanks for the info! 
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If this is true I'm really happy. I almost couldn't believe Mr. Chae would respond like that.
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NHY, where is the transcript from? Can you post a link so the other translator can confirm? Thanks.
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I think first of all, you guys should be respecting GOM's decision on this. Their culture highly values respect and courtesy and what Naniwa did in that game completely disrespected their culture. Why do you think so many Korean progamers are getting mad over it? Even Idra ggs in GSL, even though he leaves without one most of the time in other tournaments.
Whether it's dumb or not, it's not up to you guys to decide, it's GOM's decision. Even if you guys think it's unfair, you shouldn't go raging at them without considering their perspective on the situation.
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On December 15 2011 04:09 furymonkey wrote:
Didn't similar issue raised during NASL season 1? Where players still has to play game when it cannot advanced, and a player was missing, which caused a pretty big uproar, this is the same thing.
You play because it's your job, their salary came from the sponsor who earns from viewership, so if you don't give a crap about a tournament that was designed for viewers, then it make sense that he isn't fit for the job.
It's not the same thing. If you play somebody, who has a shot, but you don't, that is something completely different. If Naniwa played Nestea and him losing would mean Nestea going through, I can't see him throwing that game.
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I really hope that this is in fact GOM's statement, and the stuff about the "amateur prize-hunter" is not true. I was really quite disgusted by GOM when I heard that statement, much more so than at any punishment, which it is their prerogative to give. Insulting a professional player on a live-stream before thousands of people is much more unprofessional and disrespectful than Naniwa's worst behavior. If this is all that was said, however, then that is better. GOM can invite or not invite who they want, but insulting, slanderous stuff from a professional league is and should be beyond the pale.
Lovely.
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I still don't get it. I don't know who is Mr. che but just seems like reading all this thread and make his announcement just well packaged. Where is his problem? I could regonized naniwa was total awful tired before the match #9 is started. And knew something gonna happend. And he was attend the game maybe just rude*. But that's all that he can do. As I can say many times. People are not perfect. The game was already 0-3. And it was very late. He doesn't know the other fan. or the system rolling. Like he doesn't admin this fan page at all. He just done what he can do all everything. He doesn't ignore korean people. doesn't look down nestea or Gom staffs. Don' you think, we just think, korean, oh, he's racist. Oh, he looks down at us. Oh he plays with us. Don't you think, it just all own your thoughts? Naniwa never thought like that maybe.
It just seems like that way, because we didn't see that guy here in korea. because we all same, wearing same uniform. we have to have all same ettitude. we grew up like this way. in same education. same background. OMG. how can you this young guy kill in this way.
This is really Not alright.
Don't put your priviate opnion's feeling to this a person. who is just from sweden who starts only new career here.
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thank god there is enough sc2 content out ther so i dont have to watch gsl anymore ... nuff saied
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On December 15 2011 04:04 Trsjnica wrote:
This line of argument seems unreasonable to me. It is not that GOM is not honoring that promise, it is that Naniwa lost his spot due to outside actions.
I don't think you can reasonably argue that players should not be able to lose spots due to other actions. For example, if a player won MLG, but during the month before GSL, was caught cheating and fixing games for profit in NASL, Dreamhack, ladder, AND IEM-- they would surely lose their GSL Code S spot, and no one would complain.
Thus, this established that was all agree that at least *some actions* are sufficient to cause a player to lose a Code S spot, and that this is NOT an example of GOM not honoring their promise.
Rather, the argument here is really over whether Naniwa's actions were sufficient to justify the punishment that was given, and NOT whether GSL is honoring their promise re: MLG.
cheating and fixing games is breaking the law, this wasn't. i'm not an sc2 person but this is absolutely unfair. nfl teams "suck for luck." hell at the bnp paribas masters tennis tournament alex bogomolov jr. said "i don't want to be here" and almost retired without even having been injured. these sorts of things can result in some kind of fine or citation but never in somebody just saying "okay, we don't want you in the tournament anymore, even though you qualified under our rules, so we will simply replace you."
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On December 15 2011 04:05 xsevR wrote:
GOMTV trolling hard to invite Idra over Naniwa based on professionalism...
They must have a different definition of "professional" in Korea, maybe we need a better translation? Money is what distinguishes amateurs and professionals; Maybe a loss in foreign viewership will illustrate this.
Let's stay on topic. I imagine they're inviting IdrA because:
1) He's already competed in Code S and played in Korea - they know what to expect.
2) He's never been eliminated from Code S.
3) He's going to bring a large foreign fan base to the GSL, which is what they want.
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On December 15 2011 04:04 PanN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:01 Kich wrote:On December 15 2011 03:13 Jhax[IRE] wrote:
Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum. Really? That's a supremely stark and ignoble outlook on life as a whole. People, unanimously, are forced to do things they don't want to do on a daily basis and I would say, as a general statement, do more than the bare minimum because they understand the importance of it. It's this mentality that really bothers me, he's a professional. His job is to be above the 99% of other gamers, to never just settle for the bare minimum (especially given his own goals), and to try his hardest at every given opportunity no matter how hopeless it may seem or how worthless it may be. How can one even believe Naniwa when he says "I want to be the best" when he can hardly hold himself to those standards? Throwing a game isn't something someone who wants to be the best does--the rationalization that the match doesn't matter says that the tournament is more important to Naniwa than how good he as a player is. I've seen many people writing, "But they do it in other sports, why is it ok there?" It's not ok, it's never ok, the fact people don't give a shit isn't ok. I read these tournament reports of Magic the Gathering, people splitting prize pools or drawing into the top 8 because the game doesn't matter, or sports teams not trying their best because they games don't matter. They do matter, they all matter, but when you put winning above being the best, I guess you lose sight of that somewhere. He can still strive to be the best whilst not playing Nestea ya know. Just because he didn't want to feel stressed or continue on for a match that shouldn't have even taken place (wtf? No incentive match?) doesn't mean his statement of wanting to be the best is unbelievable. On the contrary, because the match wasn't that important and he didn't take it seriously, you can count on him taking the ones that matter more way more seriously. Your statement is invalid.
I would enormously disagree. Every match matters, no matter what. Under no circumstance does a match not matter to someone who's only goal is to be the best. It's not about winning or losing, it's not about whether this match puts you further in the tournament, it's about showing you're the best everywhere you are in everything you do. If the match "wasn't that important", he should have made it important to himself.
His statement that he wants to be the best is unbelievable (or, more realistically, less than genuine) because he doesn't show it in his demeanor, mentality, and gameplay.
We could have been talking today about how Naniwa, with absolutely nothing on the line gave the game his all. Would you have less respect for Naniwa had he played out the game as hard as he possibly could? Or would you be even more on his side for the fact that even though "the game didn't matter", it mattered to him?
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On December 15 2011 04:07 Phantom_Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:02 whereyouat wrote:On December 15 2011 03:59 Phantom_Sky wrote:On December 15 2011 03:53 TheBanana wrote:On December 15 2011 03:46 baoluvboa wrote:On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote:
Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer There was no contractual agreement. MLG/GSL did not extend to 2012 >.< Naniwa did not have a spot, was only a candidate due to his performance. But this is not the purpose of this thread. In that case they forgot to tell both MLG and the rest of the world. Check out this guys compilation of MLG-quotes saying Naniwa won a code S-seed: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/nc8g6/naniwa_loses_code_s_spot/c37zdqg from GomTV official statement http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/news/65291At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status. from that line, it is pretty clear that a Code S should be awarded to Naniwa. Mr.Chae, are you going to honor what you/ GomTV promised? Overturned due to blatent unprofessionalism. Awarded to players more deserving of being named 'CODE S' so GomTV can make up rules on the fly? next time someone they dont like win MLG, the can award that to #2 one just because they feel like it? e.g if Idra wins and Boxer got second (assume both not in Code S), they can award Boxer because he's more "professional" the problem is that you just cannot "bend" the rules on the fly especially we are talking International programs, and subjective judgement like being "professional" should not apply as everyone have a very different definition of professional, as I can claim that that Naniwa is professional as he did not want to waste energy on meaningless match and use more time to prepare for the upcoming Code S match
This!
Maybe it would be helpful for the discussion to seperate two questions:
1) The question if Naniwar behaved in an unproffesional manner.
2) Does GOM have the right to revoke Naniwars seed for the percieved unprofessionalism, even when there are no clear rules about this situation and he earned the seed by GOMs own rules?
About 1) everyone will have an opinion and is entiteled to it. Question 2) though is the sticking point for me, and I don't see how the answer Yes to 1) = Yes to 2), which is what a lot of people seem to argue.
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On December 15 2011 04:10 Delicious Insanity wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:06 Denzil wrote:On December 15 2011 04:05 Delicious Insanity wrote:On December 15 2011 03:59 gullberg wrote:On December 15 2011 03:53 Delicious Insanity wrote:
I'm repeating myself, but whatever.
If you have a global tournament, try and find a middle road. Don't enforce the punishment that's normal for 1 of the cultures involved. Please, in what country would this kind of behavior ever be acceptable? In what workplace would you find someone bitching about a rule not existing about doing "random disrespectful thing". This is not about culture, this is about professionalism and taking your job seriously. MLG should've punished Naniwa aswell because he ridiculed them. I don't it's too much to ask to be manner and nice to the people around you while you're at work. I am talking about the punishment, because I feel it's to harsh. He should be penalized in one way or the other, but I feel that taking away his code s seed is to harsh. He never had the seed he was a candidate for it, they just took him out of the running. Thanks for the info!
What? But the first post clearly says, he HAD the seed. What the hell is going on?
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EPT
