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On December 15 2011 04:13 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:04 Trsjnica wrote:
This line of argument seems unreasonable to me. It is not that GOM is not honoring that promise, it is that Naniwa lost his spot due to outside actions.
I don't think you can reasonably argue that players should not be able to lose spots due to other actions. For example, if a player won MLG, but during the month before GSL, was caught cheating and fixing games for profit in NASL, Dreamhack, ladder, AND IEM-- they would surely lose their GSL Code S spot, and no one would complain.
Thus, this established that was all agree that at least *some actions* are sufficient to cause a player to lose a Code S spot, and that this is NOT an example of GOM not honoring their promise.
Rather, the argument here is really over whether Naniwa's actions were sufficient to justify the punishment that was given, and NOT whether GSL is honoring their promise re: MLG.
cheating and fixing games is breaking the law, this wasn't. i'm not an sc2 person but this is absolutely unfair. nfl teams "suck for luck." hell at the bnp paribas masters tennis tournament alex bogomolov jr. said "i don't want to be here" and almost retired without even having been injured. these sorts of things can result in some kind of fine or citation but never in somebody just saying "okay, we don't want you in the tournament anymore, even though you qualified under our rules, so we will simply replace you."
He did not qualified contractually, it was their decision to decide that his conduct was not worthy of a PRIVILEGE spot.
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Ok, so in their eyes, Idra is a progamer and Naniwa is not? Is that really... consistent?
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Never the less thanks for clearing it up, I never really got the fuss about this
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On December 15 2011 04:06 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:56 Fandango wrote:
I really dislike that they're co-opting 'progamer' to mean the thing which helps the business side of things out (i.e. appeasing the fans and acting in a pre-approved manner), over meaning players who play the game at its highest competitive level, for the competition itself, using prize money to support that dedication. It's irritating because it can easily turn into a slippery slope where we end up with the kind of stilted interviews and lack of personality of BW events for fear of upsetting the infrastructure that supports them. The globalisation of starcraft has been fantastic for distributing the power of the tournament organisers to control things for ulterior motives that benefit them over the players, but the GSL having the best players means it has the most leverage to do things that satisfy their agenda, whether it's good for the players or not.
The weird way people put korean culture on a pedastal is really depressing too, where they think because it's korean they have a right to do things that negatively impact the scene as a whole. In general this whole thing has been one of the most depressing series of events to read on TL and honestly makes me more apathetic about people in general than ever. The amount of bizarre justifications ranging from conservative talking points that make no sense, to pro korean xenophobia, to 'for the greater esports good', to basing arguments off extrapolated opinions with little basis in fact. There's barely been 1 in 10 posts that hasn't included something that isn't a horrible abortion of logic and language. I agree that it can be a slippery slope but if GOM had let this one go without a punishment, imagine what slippery slope that would create then. Also, this is a very light punishment. NaNiwa is not even temp banned from participating in GSL. If you take Mr. Chae's argument to an extreme we could end up with "unfit to be a gamer", same place as sAviOr. Now, that is harsh.
The punishment might be light (I disagree, but it's a matter of judgement) but the justification is dangerous. GOMTV claims that they have the right to define what it means to be a progamer, independently from someone's results in competition.
There are ways of stopping what Savior did without changing the definition of progamer to an entertainer who plays games well.
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ehm im lost, naniwa qualifed for GSL Code S, then he probes rush at BlizzardCup and now GOMTV says that they are kicking Naniwa from Code S becouse they didnt like the way he played against nestea... interesting... sounds like GOMTV is overreacting and being a bit.... well actually i dont know how to say it without offensive words, so gl GSL not a good move.
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On December 15 2011 04:13 DarK[A] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:05 xsevR wrote:
GOMTV trolling hard to invite Idra over Naniwa based on professionalism...
They must have a different definition of "professional" in Korea, maybe we need a better translation? Money is what distinguishes amateurs and professionals; Maybe a loss in foreign viewership will illustrate this. Let's stay on topic. I imagine they're inviting IdrA because: 1) He's already competed in Code S and played in Korea - they know what to expect. 2) He's never been eliminated from Code S. 3) He's going to bring a large foreign fan base to the GSL, which is what they want.
how is that on topic? 
The OP specifically says that this thread is only about the message, not about idra.
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On December 15 2011 04:12 mind_control wrote:
I still don't get it. I don't know who is Mr. che but just seems like reading all this thread and make his announcement just well packaged. Where is his problem? I could regonized naniwa was total awful tired before the match #9 is started. And knew something gonna happend. And he was attend the game maybe just rude*. But that's all that he can do. As I can say many times. People are not perfect. The game was already 0-3. And it was very late. He doesn't know the other fan. or the system rolling. Like he doesn't admin this fan page at all. He just done what he can do all everything. He doesn't ignore korean people. doesn't look down nestea or Gom staffs. Don' you think, we just think, korean, oh, he's racist. Oh, he looks down at us. Oh he plays with us. Don't you think, it just all own your thoughts? Naniwa never thought like that maybe.
It just seems like that way, because we didn't see that guy here in korea. because we all same, wearing same uniform. we have to have all same ettitude. we grew up like this way. in same education. same background. OMG. how can you this young guy kill in this way.
This is really Not alright.
Don't put your priviate opnion's feeling to this a person. who is just from sweden who starts only new career here.
Then why was he banned so many times?
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On December 15 2011 04:09 ShepherdC wrote:
I'm sorry, but am I missing something? It seems like this statement is still calling Naniwa an amateur. Anyone with even a modicum of skill at understanding diplomatic language recognizes that this is a punishment, and Mr. Chae is calling Naniwa an unprofessional money hunter in his inference that because Naniwa didn't have an opportunity to make money he didn't play to win a match.
What's more, Mr. Chae is claiming that pro-gamers entire vocation should be for the victory (merits will be ignored). I have to ask what victory when you're unprofessional tournament yields nothing games? The idea that every match should be played to win is ridiculous. You often play a fast match where you have poor odds (due to opponent, map, etc) to save energy for later matches. Hell, players ALLL the time GG out of a game that is by no means over because they are too far down in position. (And I don't mean dramatically like Idra, everyone does it) The only dishonor here is GOM for putting together a tournament that would put players in such unfortunate positions.
Tournament format does not matter!! Being put in these situations does not matter!! If your a progamer and your put in any situation regarding your game you should ACT like a professional, suck it up, focus on the game you are currently playing and play it. The difference between pros and naniwa is pros don't let emotions run them down so badly that they just GIVE UP COMPLETELY. Seriously what is that? Giving up while being televised, in front of thousands is what you want in a person who calls himself a professional? Man im seriously losing hope in our foreigner community if we justify GIVING UP in our players. WHAT A DISGRACE.
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On December 15 2011 04:14 Ponchey wrote:
Ok, so in their eyes, Idra is a progamer and Naniwa is not? Is that really... consistent?
I hope you do know the difference between the two. Naniwa has had problems with almost any team and ends up leaving really fast (he has been in 15 teams probably if you count wc3). IdrA even survived being in a korean team for a long long time. Man i hate those comparisons between IdrA and Naniwa..
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On December 15 2011 04:09 ShepherdC wrote:
I'm sorry, but am I missing something? It seems like this statement is still calling Naniwa an amateur. Anyone with even a modicum of skill at understanding diplomatic language recognizes that this is a punishment, and Mr. Chae is calling Naniwa an unprofessional money hunter in his inference that because Naniwa didn't have an opportunity to make money he didn't play to win a match.
What's more, Mr. Chae is claiming that pro-gamers entire vocation should be for the victory (merits will be ignored). I have to ask what victory when you're unprofessional tournament yields nothing games? The idea that every match should be played to win is ridiculous. You often play a fast match where you have poor odds (due to opponent, map, etc) to save energy for later matches. Hell, players ALLL the time GG out of a game that is by no means over because they are too far down in position. (And I don't mean dramatically like Idra, everyone does it) The only dishonor here is GOM for putting together a tournament that would put players in such unfortunate positions.
this is exactly the kind of culture they want to inculcate - play for the victory, not for the money, cause it's not like they're going to pay these korean kids enough to make it truly worth their while to drop out of school and pursue this single-mindedly the way they do. this is just another example of esports taking advantage of the players and acting in loco parentis rather than respectfully as an employer or as an equal
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On December 15 2011 04:13 DarK[A] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:05 xsevR wrote:
GOMTV trolling hard to invite Idra over Naniwa based on professionalism...
They must have a different definition of "professional" in Korea, maybe we need a better translation? Money is what distinguishes amateurs and professionals; Maybe a loss in foreign viewership will illustrate this. Let's stay on topic. I imagine they're inviting IdrA because: 1) He's already competed in Code S and played in Korea - they know what to expect. 2) He's never been eliminated from Code S. 3) He's going to bring a large foreign fan base to the GSL, which is what they want.
They're inviting Sen* instead of Naniwa although Naniwa was never invited he was merely a strong candidate for 2 spots.
If Naniwa didn't act unprofessional they would of invited Idra AND Naniwa (most likely)
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On December 15 2011 04:06 whereyouat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:59 Mystgun wrote:
The statement is saying that the Code S spot was given to the professional gamer NaNiWa who has demonstrated that he was a skillful and professional player up until the Blizzard Cup match with NesTea, not to Johan Lucchesi the skillful gamer who has apparently acted unprofessionally by forfeiting the game in a crude manner.
For those who can't read between the lines, it implies that GSL is disappointed with Naniwa's behavior the other day and until he meets their standard as a professional gamer, they will not seed him into code S This x100. Skill =/= Professional. Combatex is quite skillful but do we call him a professional? He makes money from the game through streams, lessons and such so he has the qualifications of a professional right?
It's becoming a game of semantics, arguing about whose definition of professional takes precedence. Clearly, what koreans and native english speakers understand by 'professional' is not the same. By combatex living off the money he earns by playing starcraft, he would be called a professional starcraft player. It is his occupation, his mean of livelyhood. Whether he is being a dick while doing it is besides the point. But that's not how you understand the word. It is more in the line of 'does he uphold certain virtues that we ascribe to what we call a professional starcraft player', as I understand it.
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The main thing is why is everyone saying how they cant take his seed away?
Its their competition is it not? I mean we can argue about the manner of how and why it was taken but seriously its their competition they can kinda do what they want
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On December 15 2011 03:12 CryingPoo wrote:
Sorry about misinforming. The quote was from a friend of mine who watched it in Korea which I shouldn't have posted if I wasn't sure about the source. Thank you for your contribution.
For fucks sake Crying Poo, remember the Milkis crap? That a translator has responsibilities? Well this is one of them. If you are going to do it, either do it right or don't do it at all.
Also anyone have a link to the stream that this was discussed on? Instead on relying on the translation I would like actually watch it and decide what they sad for myself.
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On December 15 2011 04:15 arChieSC2 wrote:
ehm im lost, naniwa qualifed for GSL Code S, then he probes rush at BlizzardCup and now GOMTV says that they are kicking Naniwa from Code S becouse they didnt like the way he played against nestea... interesting... sounds like GOMTV is overreacting and being a bit.... well actually i dont know how to say it without offensive words, so gl GSL not a good move.
That's certainly one perspective... but it's obvious the Korean players were upset by all of this. It's not like this is a non-issue. A lot of us are divided, maybe even 50-50, but I don't think we've yet had a report from a Korean source supporting what Naniwa did.
All the ones we've seen have shown them being angry at Naniwa, even from people who are compared to him like MC, who obviously was offended by what Nani did.
Basically Gom isn't responding to nothing.
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On December 15 2011 04:14 baoluvboa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:13 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 04:04 Trsjnica wrote:
This line of argument seems unreasonable to me. It is not that GOM is not honoring that promise, it is that Naniwa lost his spot due to outside actions.
I don't think you can reasonably argue that players should not be able to lose spots due to other actions. For example, if a player won MLG, but during the month before GSL, was caught cheating and fixing games for profit in NASL, Dreamhack, ladder, AND IEM-- they would surely lose their GSL Code S spot, and no one would complain.
Thus, this established that was all agree that at least *some actions* are sufficient to cause a player to lose a Code S spot, and that this is NOT an example of GOM not honoring their promise.
Rather, the argument here is really over whether Naniwa's actions were sufficient to justify the punishment that was given, and NOT whether GSL is honoring their promise re: MLG.
cheating and fixing games is breaking the law, this wasn't. i'm not an sc2 person but this is absolutely unfair. nfl teams "suck for luck." hell at the bnp paribas masters tennis tournament alex bogomolov jr. said "i don't want to be here" and almost retired without even having been injured. these sorts of things can result in some kind of fine or citation but never in somebody just saying "okay, we don't want you in the tournament anymore, even though you qualified under our rules, so we will simply replace you." He did not qualified contractually, it was their decision to decide that his conduct was not worthy of a PRIVILEGE spot.
had he been awarded the spot already? were there any conditions to him being awarded the spot? it's all cute and fine to say "act like a professional" but in the real world you are not simply allowed to spank people when they do things you don't like and take back things you've already given them.
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On December 15 2011 04:17 Caltu wrote:
The main thing is why is everyone saying how they cant take his seed away?
Its their competition is it not? I mean we can argue about the manner of how and why it was taken but seriously its their competition they can kinda do what they want
Leagues can do extreme things, it is their league after all
for example in the Champions League after Liverpool won and were unable to qualify next season they directly invited Liverpool back as defending champions.
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On December 15 2011 04:13 DarK[A] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:05 xsevR wrote:
GOMTV trolling hard to invite Idra over Naniwa based on professionalism...
They must have a different definition of "professional" in Korea, maybe we need a better translation? Money is what distinguishes amateurs and professionals; Maybe a loss in foreign viewership will illustrate this. Let's stay on topic. I imagine they're inviting IdrA because: 1) He's already competed in Code S and played in Korea - they know what to expect. 2) He's never been eliminated from Code S. 3) He's going to bring a large foreign fan base to the GSL, which is what they want.
I love Idra, but not neough to waste time or money on GOM anymore. If they want a large foreign fan base to watch the GSL they should have done things differently, imo.
The magic is gone.. worst part is these Korean pro gamers comments that apparently are 100% professional.. so much respect lost 
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On December 15 2011 03:56 Fandango wrote:
I really dislike that they're co-opting 'progamer' to mean the thing which helps the business side of things out (i.e. appeasing the fans and acting in a pre-approved manner), over meaning players who play the game at its highest competitive level, for the competition itself, using prize money to support that dedication. It's irritating because it can easily turn into a slippery slope where we end up with the kind of stilted interviews and lack of personality of BW events for fear of upsetting the infrastructure that supports them. The globalisation of starcraft has been fantastic for distributing the power of the tournament organisers to control things for ulterior motives that benefit them over the players, but the GSL having the best players means it has the most leverage to do things that satisfy their agenda, whether it's good for the players or not.
The weird way people put korean culture on a pedastal is really depressing too, where they think because it's korean they have a right to do things that negatively impact the scene as a whole. In general this whole thing has been one of the most depressing series of events to read on TL and honestly makes me more apathetic about people in general than ever. The amount of bizarre justifications ranging from conservative talking points that make no sense, to pro korean xenophobia, to 'for the greater esports good', to basing arguments off extrapolated opinions with little basis in fact. There's barely been 1 in 10 posts that hasn't included something that isn't a horrible abortion of logic and language.
Naniwa, in throwing the game, didn't play at the highest competitive level. He also did not display any love at all for the competitive side of the game. If he was truly the epitomy of a competitive gamer he would have competed! Instead, since he felt he had nothing to win (even though he had reputation, fans, sponsorship and now we know his code s seed on the line) he threw the game, this is a problem because it actually makes him like he only cares about the money. Only caring about the money is short-sighted, immature, unprofessional and most importantly, since he cares about the money, hurts his brand/marketabilty.
When given the choice between two equals players, one with a reputation for being a baby, and one for being a great professional guy, the professional guy will win out. It's in Naniwas (and all progamers) interest to gain respect by acting professionally. Just because some people don't care about Naniwas attitude, doesn't mean noone does, nor does it mean noone should. If you don't satisfy your fans, guess what! they'll go elsewhere! Naniwa was incredibly short-sighted in his action, it made him look pathetic (whether or not he is, is irrelevant), and alienated a huge part of his community. Naniwa clearly screwed up.
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On December 15 2011 04:13 DarK[A] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:05 xsevR wrote:
GOMTV trolling hard to invite Idra over Naniwa based on professionalism...
They must have a different definition of "professional" in Korea, maybe we need a better translation? Money is what distinguishes amateurs and professionals; Maybe a loss in foreign viewership will illustrate this. Let's stay on topic. I imagine they're inviting IdrA because: 1) He's already competed in Code S and played in Korea - they know what to expect. 2) He's never been eliminated from Code S. 3) He's going to bring a large foreign fan base to the GSL, which is what they want.
Yeah, I have no problem with Idra or Naniwa--they play the game for money and when the chance for it is gone you get a very similar reaction (not claiming theyre alone either).
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EPT
