On December 15 2011 03:53 Delicious Insanity wrote: I'm repeating myself, but whatever.
If you have a global tournament, try and find a middle road. Don't enforce the punishment that's normal for 1 of the cultures involved.
Please, in what country would this kind of behavior ever be acceptable? In what workplace would you find someone bitching about a rule not existing about doing "random disrespectful thing".
This is not about culture, this is about professionalism and taking your job seriously. MLG should've punished Naniwa aswell because he ridiculed them. I don't it's too much to ask to be manner and nice to the people around you while you're at work.
I am talking about the punishment, because I feel it's to harsh. He should be penalized in one way or the other, but I feel that taking away his code s seed is to harsh.
On December 15 2011 04:02 HandleTaken wrote: I must admit my initial reaction upon hearing about this was: - Sigh, what did Naniwa do this time?
But after reading what actually transpired I think GOM overreacted.
Compare this to the Champions League soccer group game between Dinamo Zagreb vs Lyon. Zagreb had nothing to play for but Lyon did. Lyon won 7 - 1 and advanced from the group. Did Zagreb get thrown out of next CL-season? No, even though that match actually mattered.
I certainly won't subscribe to GSL after something like this happens.
Did Zagreb field reserves and not try to defend? Did Lyon just outclass them? If Lyon puts 3 goals past you then you tilt that's understandable.
On December 15 2011 03:59 Mystgun wrote: The statement is saying that the Code S spot was given to the professional gamer NaNiWa who has demonstrated that he was a skillful and professional player up until the Blizzard Cup match with NesTea, not to Johan Lucchesi the skillful gamer who has apparently acted unprofessionally by forfeiting the game in a crude manner.
For those who can't read between the lines, it implies that GSL is disappointed with Naniwa's behavior the other day and until he meets their standard as a professional gamer, they will not seed him into code S
This x100. Skill =/= Professional. Combatex is quite skillful but do we call him a professional? He makes money from the game through streams, lessons and such so he has the qualifications of a professional right?
On December 15 2011 04:02 bLooD. wrote: GOM´s statements are such jokes.... no 1 would even care if it happened at any other event.
Upholding a professional shouldnt be frown upon. Upholding your cultural values should be respected as well, especially when it is in your own country.
On December 15 2011 04:01 4of8 wrote: We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. So they don't believe in the common definition of a progamer. Which is basicly your getting enough money from gaming to life from that. Atleast he was that "professional" and didn't call him "an amateur prize money hunter." But still if this is what he has said, I am pretty curious why they invited Idra, who didn't even qualify. Wasn't Idras reasoning for his withdrawal of the IPL3 groupstage, that the games were meaningless and he wasn't in the shape to bring his a-game? I hope for idra no one tells Mr.Chae about this stuff.
Becoming a ProGamer is about playing what you love every single day and loving the glory of the competitions is it not? Do you remember the winners of GSL kissing the trophy or the cheque? Idra wasnt in the shape to bring his A game. Sounds like passion to me not "I dont paid enough" I feel they have made the right decision towards progaming as a passion for people not a career path
On December 15 2011 03:53 Delicious Insanity wrote: I'm repeating myself, but whatever.
If you have a global tournament, try and find a middle road. Don't enforce the punishment that's normal for 1 of the cultures involved.
Please, in what country would this kind of behavior ever be acceptable? In what workplace would you find someone bitching about a rule not existing about doing "random disrespectful thing".
This is not about culture, this is about professionalism and taking your job seriously. MLG should've punished Naniwa aswell because he ridiculed them. I don't it's too much to ask to be manner and nice to the people around you while you're at work.
Ridicule him for his opinion? What a joke.
Yeah, whoever got ridiculed for an opinion on the internet?
You should actually try reading what was said before you respond.
On December 15 2011 03:53 Delicious Insanity wrote: I'm repeating myself, but whatever.
If you have a global tournament, try and find a middle road. Don't enforce the punishment that's normal for 1 of the cultures involved.
Please, in what country would this kind of behavior ever be acceptable? In what workplace would you find someone bitching about a rule not existing about doing "random disrespectful thing".
This is not about culture, this is about professionalism and taking your job seriously. MLG should've punished Naniwa aswell because he ridiculed them. I don't it's too much to ask to be manner and nice to the people around you while you're at work.
I am talking about the punishment, because I feel it's to harsh. He should be penalized in one way or the other, but I feel that taking away his code s seed is to harsh.
He never had the seed he was a candidate for it, they just took him out of the running.
On the Idra IPL post mentioned The Idra IPL thing had an understanding. He played 1 match after coming back from China and made an educated decision to preserve himself for the other games.
The 2 situations are incomparable as from what I read he was sleeping in the players lounge and all over the place on Day1 even IPL could see he was unfit to play, obviously they would of liked him to play but dragging him up half asleep does them no good and does him no good
On December 15 2011 03:04 NHY wrote: There is a thread with similar name with incorrect information and it is causing people to believe in false information. But I was told to piss off by OP of that thread so there is no chance he'll change what he wrote now. So, here it goes.
First of all, what Mr. Chae actually said:
프로게이머라는 직업이 사실은 이겨서 상금을 타가서 그걸로 업을 삼는다고 프로게이머라고 생각하지 않아요 프로게이머라는 직업은 승부를 가리는 것들을 시청자분들에게 보여주고 그것들을 시청자 분들이 열광하고 그것을 통해서 승부를 가리는 것을 직업으로 삼는 선수들을 프로게이머라고 저희가 생각을하고 있기 때문에 저희가 시드를 줬던것은 퀀틱 게이밍의 프로토스 프로게이머 나니와 선수였지 스웨덴에서 게임을 잘하는 청년 요한 루세시는 아니였습니다.
"We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. We think that pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that. We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not to Johan Lucchesi from Sweden, who plays the game well."
There was NO mention of the conduct rule, it being a "punishment", or that he is "an amateur prize money hunter."
Please limit the discussion in this thread to what was said during today's Blizzard cup Korean stream and discuss the issue of NaNiwa & Code S seed in 100 other threads.
We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. So they don't believe in the common definition of a progamer. Which is basicly your getting enough money from gaming to life from that. Atleast he was that "professional" and didn't call him "an amateur prize money hunter." But still if this is what he has said, I am pretty curious why they invited Idra, who didn't even qualify. Wasn't Idras reasoning for his withdrawal of the IPL3 groupstage, that the games were meaningless and he wasn't in the shape to bring his a-game? I hope for idra no one tells Mr.Chae about this stuff.
His main reason for withdrawal was probably exhaustion.
Exhaustion from what? He played 3 bo1, which is essentially 1 full bo3 series. It's insulting to naniwa to even suggest he would be exhausted from playing 1 full bo3.
On December 15 2011 03:56 Fandango wrote: I really dislike that they're co-opting 'progamer' to mean the thing which helps the business side of things out (i.e. appeasing the fans and acting in a pre-approved manner), over meaning players who play the game at its highest competitive level, for the competition itself, using prize money to support that dedication. It's irritating because it can easily turn into a slippery slope where we end up with the kind of stilted interviews and lack of personality of BW events for fear of upsetting the infrastructure that supports them. The globalisation of starcraft has been fantastic for distributing the power of the tournament organisers to control things for ulterior motives that benefit them over the players, but the GSL having the best players means it has the most leverage to do things that satisfy their agenda, whether it's good for the players or not.
The weird way people put korean culture on a pedastal is really depressing too, where they think because it's korean they have a right to do things that negatively impact the scene as a whole. In general this whole thing has been one of the most depressing series of events to read on TL and honestly makes me more apathetic about people in general than ever. The amount of bizarre justifications ranging from conservative talking points that make no sense, to pro korean xenophobia, to 'for the greater esports good', to basing arguments off extrapolated opinions with little basis in fact. There's barely been 1 in 10 posts that hasn't included something that isn't a horrible abortion of logic and language.
I agree that it can be a slippery slope but if GOM had let this one go without a punishment, imagine what slippery slope that would create then.
Also, this is a very light punishment. NaNiwa is not even temp banned from participating in GSL. If you take Mr. Chae's argument to an extreme we could end up with "unfit to be a gamer", same place as sAviOr. Now, that is harsh.
On December 15 2011 03:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Pro-gaming is professional gaming. Being a professional means making money. Sure, adding to the hype and getting the crowd fired up can be part of the job too, but first and foremost, pro-gaming is a job.
Pro-gamers need to earn a living for e-sports to be sustainable. Otherwise, this cute vision of "pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that" is too idealistic and not realistic.
If they wanted someone who was super-serious about winning the tournament, they were right to invite Naniwa. If they cared about exciting the audience and hyping up the community, then they shouldn't have chosen to invite a player with a notoriously lackluster personality.
Being professional means that there are certain standards to uphold and certain procedures to respect in the professional circuit, regardless of whether you agree with them or not. There is no question that progamers need to earn a living for e-sports to be sustainable, but ultimately what makes it sustainable is support from fans so companies will continue to sponsor teams.
Why is it so hard for people to understand that in any professional career, there are industry standards that must be met? You do things that you don't necessarily want to do in order to uphold your reputation. If you throw that away, there's no reason you should expect to be respected or recognized as a professional gamer.
On December 15 2011 03:07 PraetorianX wrote: Did someone tell them Johan Lucchesi actually is Naniwa?
I mean, he is who he is. Maybe GomTV should be respectful of that instead of trying to mold him into their personally preferred type of pro-gamer persona. I'm not seeing other tournaments having this problem.
what the..? are you serious? other tournaments 'dont have this problem' because all they care about is money and viewership - that doesnt mean thats the correct way to approach the matter. idra and naniwa are both immature childs and should be treated as such. did you seriously imply that a whole organisation like gomtv should go out of their way to accomodate a kid from sweden and his angry 15yo fans?
oh common sense please come back to this place.. GRACE US WITH YOUR PRESENCE!
On December 15 2011 04:02 HandleTaken wrote: I must admit my initial reaction upon hearing about this was: - Sigh, what did Naniwa do this time?
But after reading what actually transpired I think GOM overreacted.
Compare this to the Champions League soccer group game between Dinamo Zagreb vs Lyon. Zagreb had nothing to play for but Lyon did. Lyon won 7 - 1 and advanced from the group. Did Zagreb get thrown out of next CL-season? No, even though that match actually mattered.
I certainly won't subscribe to GSL after something like this happens.
Disciplinary actions regarding Dinamo Zagreb are still ongoing. The first probe for corruption was thrown off, but if Uefa let this pass than the champions league can say goodbye to it's integrity and you know it.
On December 15 2011 03:59 labbe wrote: Okay, so let's say that I actually buy that this is NOT actually a "punishment". There is still some incredible double standards going on here. They are basically saying they are not inviting Naniwa based upon him not respecting the sanctity of competition. Yet at the same time they are inviting players directly into Code S, with very arbitrary reasoning, basically making the seeds to Code S a giant popularity contest, and that totally goes against the spirit of the competition.
I can't really make sense of this.
Well how do you gain that popularity? By doing well at tournaments, is it really that arbitrary of a reason?
On December 15 2011 04:02 bLooD. wrote: GOM´s statements are such jokes.... no 1 would even care if it happened at any other events.
Uhhhh, don't you remember that Naniwa was banned from IEM and EPS? Tournaments outside of korea ARE taking action.
He was NOT banned from EPS for throwing a game... rofl.... He was banned for bm´ing ref´s and players and showing up late for matches.
On December 15 2011 03:59 Mystgun wrote: The statement is saying that the Code S spot was given to the professional gamer NaNiWa who has demonstrated that he was a skillful and professional player up until the Blizzard Cup match with NesTea, not to Johan Lucchesi the skillful gamer who has apparently acted unprofessionally by forfeiting the game in a crude manner.
For those who can't read between the lines, it implies that GSL is disappointed with Naniwa's behavior the other day and until he meets their standard as a professional gamer, they will not seed him into code S
This x100. Skill =/= Professional. Combatex is quite skillful but do we call him a professional? He makes money from the game through streams, lessons and such so he has the qualifications of a professional right?
Well..no. Combatx isn't really skilled. That and he cheats. Quite different from throwing a pointless game.
Are people arguing about if the code S spot was "an invitation" or not ? The code S spot was Naniwa's, no need to argue otherwise. Just read the LR thread of his MLG, you'll see eveyone cheering because his win in semies meant he won code S.This has also be comfirmed like 100 times, please do not rewrite history. Naniwa was a code S player, it was so for GOM, for Liquipedia, for MLG, for everyone.
On December 15 2011 04:05 xsevR wrote: GOMTV trolling hard to invite Idra over Naniwa based on professionalism...
They must have a different definition of "professional" in Korea, maybe we need a better translation? Money is what distinguishes amateurs and professionals; Maybe a loss in foreign viewership will illustrate this.
On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote: Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer
There was no contractual agreement. MLG/GSL did not extend to 2012 >.< Naniwa did not have a spot, was only a candidate due to his performance. But this is not the purpose of this thread.
In that case they forgot to tell both MLG and the rest of the world. Check out this guys compilation of MLG-quotes saying Naniwa won a code S-seed:
At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
from that line, it is pretty clear that a Code S should be awarded to Naniwa. Mr.Chae, are you going to honor what you/ GomTV promised?
Overturned due to blatent unprofessionalism. Awarded to players more deserving of being named 'CODE S'
so GomTV can make up rules on the fly? next time someone they dont like win MLG, the can award that to #2 one just because they feel like it? e.g if Idra wins and Boxer got second (assume both not in Code S), they can award Boxer because he's more "professional"
the problem is that you just cannot "bend" the rules on the fly especially we are talking International programs, and subjective judgement like being "professional" should not apply as everyone have a very different definition of professional, as I can claim that that Naniwa is professional as he did not want to waste energy on meaningless match and use more time to prepare for the upcoming Code S match
On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote: Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer
There was no contractual agreement. MLG/GSL did not extend to 2012 >.< Naniwa did not have a spot, was only a candidate due to his performance. But this is not the purpose of this thread.
In that case they forgot to tell both MLG and the rest of the world. Check out this guys compilation of MLG-quotes saying Naniwa won a code S-seed:
At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
from that line, it is pretty clear that a Code S should be awarded to Naniwa. Mr.Chae, are you going to honor what you/ GomTV promised?
This line of argument seems unreasonable to me. It is not that GOM is not honoring that promise, it is that Naniwa lost his spot due to outside actions.
I don't think you can reasonably argue that players should not be able to lose spots due to other actions. For example, if a player won MLG, but during the month before GSL, was caught cheating and fixing games for profit in NASL, Dreamhack, ladder, AND IEM-- they would surely lose their GSL Code S spot, and no one would complain.
Thus, this established that was all agree that at least *some actions* are sufficient to cause a player to lose a Code S spot, and that this is NOT an example of GOM not honoring their promise.
Rather, the argument here is really over whether Naniwa's actions were sufficient to justify the punishment that was given, and NOT whether GSL is honoring their promise re: MLG.
But GOM has brought on that discussion by claiming that he was never qualified in the first place and as such they simply didn't invite him. That flies straight in the face of the above. Simply put, GOM doesn't have its story straight.
On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote: Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer
There was no contractual agreement. MLG/GSL did not extend to 2012 >.< Naniwa did not have a spot, was only a candidate due to his performance. But this is not the purpose of this thread.
In that case they forgot to tell both MLG and the rest of the world. Check out this guys compilation of MLG-quotes saying Naniwa won a code S-seed:
At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
from that line, it is pretty clear that a Code S should be awarded to Naniwa. Mr.Chae, are you going to honor what you/ GomTV promised?
They did honor what they promised, then they decided that his conduct was enough to use their discretion in not granting the slot. Presumably they have a clause in their contract that allows for them to over-ride whatever seeding decision they make at will. As an aside, MLG would have very much within their rights to ban and disqualify Naniwa over his comments about it being a joke tourney, they would have done so in pretty-much any professional sports league in the world.
EPT
