|
On December 15 2011 03:58 jyisvip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:56 OldManSenex wrote:
I'm worried about the implications of a player being denied a seed because they used a strategy that the tournament staff didn't like. Sure, a probe pull at the start of the game is unlikely to win, particularly at the pro level, but it's not the same as just leaving the game. This ethereal, "the player didn't try hard enough," makes me twitchy, because it is a completely subjective measurement. It is not subjective if you actually watched the game, where he had one hand on the mouse and the other on his chin, looking bored as hell as he right-clicked all his probes to nestea's base.
Pretty much, its not like the line is that thinly veiled.
You can tell if someone is throwing or not easily
|
The real issue is that a big part of the community was under the impression that Naniwa was guarenteed a spot in code S. Not that he was being considered for a spot.
|
The statement is saying that the Code S spot was given to the professional gamer NaNiWa who has demonstrated that he was a skillful and professional player up until the Blizzard Cup match with NesTea, not to Johan Lucchesi the skillful gamer who has apparently acted unprofessionally by forfeiting the game in a crude manner.
For those who can't read between the lines, it implies that GSL is disappointed with Naniwa's behavior the other day and until he meets their standard as a professional gamer, they will not seed him into code S
|
On December 15 2011 03:53 TheBanana wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:46 baoluvboa wrote:On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote:
Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer There was no contractual agreement. MLG/GSL did not extend to 2012 >.< Naniwa did not have a spot, was only a candidate due to his performance. But this is not the purpose of this thread. In that case they forgot to tell both MLG and the rest of the world. Check out this guys compilation of MLG-quotes saying Naniwa won a code S-seed: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/nc8g6/naniwa_loses_code_s_spot/c37zdqg
from GomTV official statement
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/news/65291
At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
from that line, it is pretty clear that a Code S should be awarded to Naniwa. Mr.Chae, are you going to honor what you/ GomTV promised?
|
On December 15 2011 03:54 mbr2321 wrote:
GOM has still not owned up to the their terrible tournament format. I don't care that NaNiWa was take out of Code S because of his manners, or his emotions, or whatever. I'm still waiting for GOMtv to say that they shouldn't have put those two players in a situation where their match would be utterly meaningless. It's absolutely abysmal tournament structure.
It's not their fault that Naniwa and Nestea sucked on that particular day.
Can't you see why they put their match there? They knew going in it was going to be the most hyped match and the one everyone wanted to see. In fact there were dozens of posts from people in the thread at the time saying things like 'I stayed up for this <insert curseword>'.
It turned out to be a poor decision, but they didn't count on Naniwa misbehaving. Any other combination of players would have produced a better response.
|
On December 15 2011 03:57 HappyChris wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:54 Trsjnica wrote:On December 15 2011 03:51 labbe wrote:
They are revoking Naniwa's invites on arguments based on morality and honor, and at the same time giving a seed to Idra, a player that's very famous for insulting his opponents when he loses. Does anyone else think this is a bit wierd? Not really. They revoked (or just didn't give to begin with) Naniwa's seed based upon one specific instance of poor conduct that the GSL believed was disresectful to their league, their sponsors, and their fans. Further, Idra's BM is much further past, and not really against the GSL itself. Further past matters here because Naniwa isn't being banned from GSL forever, but rather, merely not being seeded into Code S this season. Less then 3 months ago Idra sayd fuck you to MaNa over a lost game.
Idra said fuck you to 90% of the Korean Ladder, what's your point?
|
On December 15 2011 03:57 HappyChris wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:54 Trsjnica wrote:On December 15 2011 03:51 labbe wrote:
They are revoking Naniwa's invites on arguments based on morality and honor, and at the same time giving a seed to Idra, a player that's very famous for insulting his opponents when he loses. Does anyone else think this is a bit wierd? Not really. They revoked (or just didn't give to begin with) Naniwa's seed based upon one specific instance of poor conduct that the GSL believed was disresectful to their league, their sponsors, and their fans. Further, Idra's BM is much further past, and not really against the GSL itself. Further past matters here because Naniwa isn't being banned from GSL forever, but rather, merely not being seeded into Code S this season. Less then 3 months ago Idra sayd fuck you to MaNa over a lost game.
I am unsure how that disrespects GSL.
Further 3 months ago would be over a GSL season ago. In 3 months, Naniwa will not be being punished by the GSL in any way, and he will have every opportunity to compete in the GSL which begins in three months.
|
On December 15 2011 03:59 labbe wrote:
Okay, so let's say that I actually buy that this is NOT actually a "punishment". There is still some incredible double standards going on here. They are basically saying they are not inviting Naniwa based upon him not respecting the sanctity of competition. Yet at the same time they are inviting players directly into Code S, with very arbitrary reasoning, basically making the seeds to Code S a giant popularity contest, and that totally goes against the spirit of the competition.
I can't really make sense of this.
For foreigner's participation. It is not like this is a new thing that was just introduced the night Naniwa was banned.
Its been going on for forever and no need to bring it up in this thread.
|
On December 15 2011 03:04 NHY wrote:There is a thread with similar name with incorrect information and it is causing people to believe in false information. But I was told to piss off by OP of that thread so there is no chance he'll change what he wrote now. So, here it goes. First of all, what Mr. Chae actually said: Show nested quote +프로게이머라는 직업이 사실은 이겨서 상금을 타가서 그걸로 업을 삼는다고 프로게이머라고 생각하지 않아요 프로게이머라는 직업은 승부를 가리는 것들을 시청자분들에게 보여주고 그것들을 시청자 분들이 열광하고 그것을 통해서 승부를 가리는 것을 직업으로 삼는 선수들을 프로게이머라고 저희가 생각을하고 있기 때문에 저희가 시드를 줬던것은 퀀틱 게이밍의 프로토스 프로게이머 나니와 선수였지 스웨덴에서 게임을 잘하는 청년 요한 루세시는 아니였습니다. " We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. We think that pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that. We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not to Johan Lucchesi from Sweden, who plays the game well." There was NO mention of the conduct rule, it being a "punishment", or that he is "an amateur prize money hunter." Please limit the discussion in this thread to what was said during today's Blizzard cup Korean stream and discuss the issue of NaNiwa & Code S seed in 100 other threads.
We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. So they don't believe in the common definition of a progamer. Which is basicly your getting enough money from gaming to life from that.
Atleast he was that "professional" and didn't call him "an amateur prize money hunter." But still if this is what he has said, I am pretty curious why they invited Idra, who didn't even qualify. Wasn't Idras reasoning for his withdrawal of the IPL3 groupstage, that the games were meaningless and he wasn't in the shape to bring his a-game? I hope for idra no one tells Mr.Chae about this stuff.
|
On December 15 2011 03:13 Jhax[IRE] wrote:
Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum.
Really? That's a supremely stark and ignoble outlook on life as a whole. People, unanimously, are forced to do things they don't want to do on a daily basis and I would say, as a general statement, do more than the bare minimum because they understand the importance of it.
It's this mentality that really bothers me, he's a professional. His job is to be above the 99% of other gamers, to never just settle for the bare minimum (especially given his own goals), and to try his hardest at every given opportunity no matter how hopeless it may seem or how worthless it may be. How can one even believe Naniwa when he says "I want to be the best" when he can hardly hold himself to those standards? Throwing a game isn't something someone who wants to be the best does--the rationalization that the match doesn't matter says that the tournament is more important to Naniwa than how good he as a player is.
I've seen many people writing, "But they do it in other sports, why is it ok there?" It's not ok, it's never ok, the fact people don't give a shit isn't ok. I read these tournament reports of Magic the Gathering, people splitting prize pools or drawing into the top 8 because the game doesn't matter, or sports teams not trying their best because the games don't matter. They do matter, they all matter, but when you put winning above being the best, I guess you lose sight of that somewhere.
|
On December 15 2011 03:59 gullberg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:53 Delicious Insanity wrote:
I'm repeating myself, but whatever.
If you have a global tournament, try and find a middle road. Don't enforce the punishment that's normal for 1 of the cultures involved. Please, in what country would this kind of behavior ever be acceptable? In what workplace would you find someone bitching about a rule not existing about doing "random disrespectful thing". This is not about culture, this is about professionalism and taking your job seriously. MLG should've punished Naniwa aswell because he ridiculed them. I don't it's too much to ask to be manner and nice to the people around you while you're at work.
Ridicule him for his opinion? What a joke.
|
On December 15 2011 03:59 Canucklehead wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:54 mbr2321 wrote:
GOM has still not owned up to the their terrible tournament format. I don't care that NaNiWa was take out of Code S because of his manners, or his emotions, or whatever. I'm still waiting for GOMtv to say that they shouldn't have put those two players in a situation where their match would be utterly meaningless. It's absolutely abysmal tournament structure. Blaming the format is a cop-out. Nestea was put in the same situation and didn't do it. Yes the format didn't help matters as the game was meaningless, but a person can still use his brain and make intelligent decisions. If your character is strong enough, then the format is irrelevant to actions you choose to take.
I was under the impression that it was made round robin for the fans, since this is an end of the year, invite everyone who does well, sort of a thing. That way we get to see a bunch of matches by some of the best players in the world.
I, of course, cannot read the mind of whoever made the structure.
|
On December 15 2011 03:55 baoluvboa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:53 TheBanana wrote:On December 15 2011 03:46 baoluvboa wrote:On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote:
Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer There was no contractual agreement. MLG/GSL did not extend to 2012 >.< Naniwa did not have a spot, was only a candidate due to his performance. But this is not the purpose of this thread. In that case they forgot to tell both MLG and the rest of the world. Check out this guys compilation of MLG-quotes saying Naniwa won a code S-seed: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/nc8g6/naniwa_loses_code_s_spot/c37zdqg Is it that hard to realize that it was a mis communication and GSL/MLG had a misunderstanding?
To be honest?
A big fat "YES".
Considering all things it's hard for me to believe MLG doesn't understand their own deal with GSL.
|
On December 15 2011 03:59 Phantom_Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:53 TheBanana wrote:On December 15 2011 03:46 baoluvboa wrote:On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote:
Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer There was no contractual agreement. MLG/GSL did not extend to 2012 >.< Naniwa did not have a spot, was only a candidate due to his performance. But this is not the purpose of this thread. In that case they forgot to tell both MLG and the rest of the world. Check out this guys compilation of MLG-quotes saying Naniwa won a code S-seed: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/nc8g6/naniwa_loses_code_s_spot/c37zdqg from GomTV official statement http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/news/65291At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status. from that line, it is pretty clear that a Code S should be awarded to Naniwa. Mr.Chae, are you going to honor what you/ GomTV promised?
Overturned due to blatent unprofessionalism. Awarded to players more deserving of being named 'CODE S'
|
the statement is vague and doesn't exactly say anything informative. in fact, it sounds silly from a realistic point of view ... basically you need to have certain reasons for winning (pleasing the fans) and that money shouldn't be a part of it. they are trying to separate some noble idea of "striving for victory" versus playing for money when in reality it's always a mix of the two.
i think we can all agree it would be nice if they released something saying more ...
|
I must admit my initial reaction upon hearing about this was: - Sigh, what did Naniwa do this time?
But after reading what actually transpired I think GOM overreacted.
Compare this to the Champions League soccer group game between Dinamo Zagreb vs Lyon. Zagreb had nothing to play for but Lyon did. Lyon won 7 - 1 and advanced from the group. Did Zagreb get thrown out of next CL-season? No, even though that match actually mattered.
I certainly won't subscribe to GSL after something like this happens.
|
On December 15 2011 03:56 OldManSenex wrote:
I'm worried about the implications of a player being denied a seed because they used a strategy that the tournament staff didn't like. Sure, a probe pull at the start of the game is unlikely to win, particularly at the pro level, but it's not the same as just leaving the game. This ethereal, "the player didn't try hard enough," makes me twitchy, because it is a completely subjective measurement.
When you match-fix, you get punished for it. Korea takes it seriously, especially since sAviOr and company had their scandal. This isn't a matter of a strategy, this is a matter of integrity.
Oh and yes throwing a match is match-fixing, it falls under match-fixing. Also doesn't mean I'm putting Naniwa on sAviOr level.
|
On December 15 2011 04:01 PanN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:59 gullberg wrote:On December 15 2011 03:53 Delicious Insanity wrote:
I'm repeating myself, but whatever.
If you have a global tournament, try and find a middle road. Don't enforce the punishment that's normal for 1 of the cultures involved. Please, in what country would this kind of behavior ever be acceptable? In what workplace would you find someone bitching about a rule not existing about doing "random disrespectful thing". This is not about culture, this is about professionalism and taking your job seriously. MLG should've punished Naniwa aswell because he ridiculed them. I don't it's too much to ask to be manner and nice to the people around you while you're at work. Ridicule him for his opinion? What a joke.
He said it in front of many many viewers. Completely unprofessional. Conforming to the social norm is a necessity in professional situations.
|
On December 15 2011 03:59 Canucklehead wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:54 mbr2321 wrote:
GOM has still not owned up to the their terrible tournament format. I don't care that NaNiWa was take out of Code S because of his manners, or his emotions, or whatever. I'm still waiting for GOMtv to say that they shouldn't have put those two players in a situation where their match would be utterly meaningless. It's absolutely abysmal tournament structure. Blaming the format is a cop-out. Nestea was put in the same situation and didn't do it. Yes the format didn't help matters as the game was meaningless, but a person can still use his brain and make intelligent decisions. If your character is strong enough, then the format is irrelevant to actions you choose to take.
The thing is I am completely ambivalent with regards to NaNiWa being punished. I just want this whole situation to be fair. It is not fair that GOM unilaterally decides to punish NaNiWa without accepting any responsibility for their horrific tournament structure.
|
On December 15 2011 03:57 whereyouat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:51 labbe wrote:
They are revoking Naniwa's invites on arguments based on morality and honor, and at the same time giving a seed to Idra, a player that's very famous for insulting his opponents when he loses. Does anyone else think this is a bit wierd? Has Idra disgustingly BM'ed a player and the audience/viewers while televised in Korea for the world to see? He may be BM as hell behind the scenes but at least the guy knows respect and when to give it.
Maybe it is cultural but respect means something very different to me. What Idra does is worse than showing his lack of respect in public. Except I don't judge him because he does it to protect his job not because he's a hypocrite.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
