On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote: Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer
there is no agreement about 2012 yet. Providence was not a normal MLG Pro Circuit, it did not have GSL invites (aside from the players who qualified through their previous results) at a seeded position, therefor it does not necessarily convey special rewards (as in slots or seeds) for any future GSLs.
It might if MLG and GSL decided to do so, or it might not, depending on the plans of those two seperate buisnesses. Thats between them, and a matter yet to be negotiated/discussed.
For the first GSL of 2012 they obviously planned to change their system (no surprise there) and wanted to fill the open slots with invites. We don't know yet if they will make a new exchange program or not, frankly we don't know anything about the MLG 2012 circuit yet.
Naniwa had a fantastic result at Providence, but from a legal standpoint he did not earn a GSL seed, because it was the national finals, not a normal pro circuit event. Furthermore Gom almost certainly has the right to deny a player his "earned" seed, if they feel the need to punish him for something. Whether that is a good decision or not, is another debate, but they certainly have the right as a tournament organiser. Imagine for example that Rain would have won the MLG in July (Anaheim i think). He was still banned from GSL August and certainly would not have gotten the slot, even if he supposedly "earned" it at MLG.
Ps: I agree that Gom should have prepared and posted a written press statement (in Korean or english, i don't care) in addition to announcing something on stream. Verbal misscommunications happen easily, if something is written down properly it is much harder to twist around.
On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote: Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer
There was no contractual agreement. MLG/GSL did not extend to 2012 >.< Naniwa did not have a spot, was only a candidate due to his performance. But this is not the purpose of this thread.
In that case they forgot to tell both MLG and the rest of the world. Check out this guys compilation of MLG-quotes saying Naniwa won a code S-seed:
I'm worried about the implications of a player being denied a seed because they used a strategy that the tournament staff didn't like. Sure, a probe pull at the start of the game is unlikely to win, particularly at the pro level, but it's not the same as just leaving the game. This ethereal, "the player didn't try hard enough," makes me twitchy, because it is a completely subjective measurement.
On December 15 2011 03:13 Jhax[IRE] wrote: Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum.
The difference is if you are a pro gamer, you still want to play. And if you are great pro gamer, you still want to win, despite the result would mean shit.
Maybe but you dont se many places where you are forced to play meaningless games just after you lost 3 close games and are out of the tournament.
I really dislike that they're co-opting 'progamer' to mean the thing which helps the business side of things out (i.e. appeasing the fans and acting in a pre-approved manner), over meaning players who play the game at its highest competitive level, for the competition itself, using prize money to support that dedication. It's irritating because it can easily turn into a slippery slope where we end up with the kind of stilted interviews and lack of personality of BW events for fear of upsetting the infrastructure that supports them. The globalisation of starcraft has been fantastic for distributing the power of the tournament organisers to control things for ulterior motives that benefit them over the players, but the GSL having the best players means it has the most leverage to do things that satisfy their agenda, whether it's good for the players or not.
The weird way people put korean culture on a pedastal is really depressing too, where they think because it's korean they have a right to do things that negatively impact the scene as a whole. In general this whole thing has been one of the most depressing series of events to read on TL and honestly makes me more apathetic about people in general than ever. The amount of bizarre justifications ranging from conservative talking points that make no sense, to pro korean xenophobia, to 'for the greater esports good', to basing arguments off extrapolated opinions with little basis in fact. There's barely been 1 in 10 posts that hasn't included something that isn't a horrible abortion of logic and language.
On December 15 2011 03:53 diophan wrote: I'm very happy that GOM's response was infinitely more measured than what was claimed. Also whoever said he was called a money grubbing hunter or whatever should be ashamed for tarnishing GOM's reputation.
Once again I am deeply sorry about posting something from non-credible source.. I am trying to communicate with Mr.CHAE also to apologize in person.. I love e-sports and my aim was sole to create a faster communication line between two communities which I have failed at. I am truly sorry.
On December 15 2011 03:51 labbe wrote: They are revoking Naniwa's invites on arguments based on morality and honor, and at the same time giving a seed to Idra, a player that's very famous for insulting his opponents when he loses. Does anyone else think this is a bit wierd?
Not really.
They revoked (or just didn't give to begin with) Naniwa's seed based upon one specific instance of poor conduct that the GSL believed was disresectful to their league, their sponsors, and their fans.
Further, Idra's BM is much further past, and not really against the GSL itself. Further past matters here because Naniwa isn't being banned from GSL forever, but rather, merely not being seeded into Code S this season.
Less then 3 months ago Idra sayd fuck you to MaNa over a lost game.
Pro-gaming is professional gaming. Being a professional means making money. Sure, adding to the hype and getting the crowd fired up can be part of the job too, but first and foremost, pro-gaming is a job.
Pro-gamers need to earn a living for e-sports to be sustainable. Otherwise, this cute vision of "pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that" is too idealistic and not realistic.
If they wanted someone who was super-serious about winning the tournament, they were right to invite Naniwa. If they cared about exciting the audience and hyping up the community, then they shouldn't have chosen to invite a player with a notoriously lackluster personality.
On December 15 2011 03:07 PraetorianX wrote: Did someone tell them Johan Lucchesi actually is Naniwa?
I mean, he is who he is. Maybe GomTV should be respectful of that instead of trying to mold him into their personally preferred type of pro-gamer persona. I'm not seeing other tournaments having this problem.
This isn't exactly the first time tournaments have had a difference of interests with Naniwa.
Disclaimer: Past performance is not indicative of future results
On December 15 2011 03:51 labbe wrote: They are revoking Naniwa's invites on arguments based on morality and honor, and at the same time giving a seed to Idra, a player that's very famous for insulting his opponents when he loses. Does anyone else think this is a bit wierd?
Has Idra disgustingly BM'ed a player and the audience/viewers while televised in Korea for the world to see? He may be BM as hell behind the scenes but at least the guy knows respect and when to give it.
I'm glad it got cleared up, the original quote made Mr. Chae look terrible.
On December 15 2011 03:30 Azzur wrote: But I think in the end of the day, the facts are pretty clear, no matter the wording of what was said: - Naniwa was originally going to be one of the Code S seeds, but this privilege has now been taken back.
An invitation is not a privilege. It can be revoked, but ultimately you need to justify it and you will be judged on the quality of the justification.
On December 15 2011 03:51 labbe wrote: They are revoking Naniwa's invites on arguments based on morality and honor, and at the same time giving a seed to Idra, a player that's very famous for insulting his opponents when he loses. Does anyone else think this is a bit wierd?
Not really.
They revoked (or just didn't give to begin with) Naniwa's seed based upon one specific instance of poor conduct that the GSL believed was disresectful to their league, their sponsors, and their fans.
Further, Idra's BM is much further past, and not really against the GSL itself. Further past matters here because Naniwa isn't being banned from GSL forever, but rather, merely not being seeded into Code S this season.
Less then 3 months ago Idra sayd fuck you to MaNa over a lost game.
Not in a gsl league. Gom is consistent in not caring about Naniwa or Idra's conduct outside of GSL or in their past.
Ok that quote makes me feel so much more happy about GOMs decision. Thanks for misinformation other post GOM have made the perfect decision if that is the case having the glory of the game rather than the money be the factor.
If I was a pro I would want to win tournaments and stand there with the trophy in hand and love that moment. Not think OMG OMG OMG I CAN GET A NEW CAR! The reason to become a pro is the love for the game and giving yourself to it. People that are in it to make money dont deserve to have fans. We are there cheering them on in the packed shows for the glory of wining MLG/GSL/Dreamhack ect Not to see who will win that big prize pool.
The quote GOM made about giving the spot to Naniwa not Johan Lucchesi gives me faith in this decision
On December 15 2011 03:56 OldManSenex wrote: I'm worried about the implications of a player being denied a seed because they used a strategy that the tournament staff didn't like. Sure, a probe pull at the start of the game is unlikely to win, particularly at the pro level, but it's not the same as just leaving the game. This ethereal, "the player didn't try hard enough," makes me twitchy, because it is a completely subjective measurement.
It is not subjective if you actually watched the game, where he had one hand on the mouse and the other on his chin, looking bored as hell as he right-clicked all his probes to nestea's base.
On December 15 2011 03:44 Phantom_Sky wrote: Mr.Chae was suggesting that he gave the Code S pro to a "pro gamer", instead of some random kid that played the game well, as he expected pro gamer to be a higher standard
the problem is just you have to honor the agreement between MLG/ GSL, Naniwa got #2 in MLG the hard way, he should not be punished just because Mr.Chae / GomTV/ Koreans have a different definition of pro gamer
There was no contractual agreement. MLG/GSL did not extend to 2012 >.< Naniwa did not have a spot, was only a candidate due to his performance. But this is not the purpose of this thread.
In that case they forgot to tell both MLG and the rest of the world. Check out this guys compilation of MLG-quotes saying Naniwa won a code S-seed:
This is evidence (albeit jenky evidence) that there was, indeed, a contractual obligation between MLG, GSL, and NaNiWa that gave NaNi a Code S spot. Unless their was an all-encompasing any-reason-at-all exit clause in the contract, there must be a specific rule that NaNiWa has allegedly broken. He boxed 6 workers and a-moved to NesTea's base.I don't understand what the problem with that is.
Okay, so let's say that I actually buy that this is NOT actually a "punishment" (I don't btw. Nothing has changed, they are just sugarcoating their punishment with pretty words to make it look less bad on them). There is still some incredible double standards going on here. They are basically saying they are not inviting Naniwa based upon him not respecting the sanctity of competition. Yet at the same time they are inviting players directly into Code S, with very arbitrary reasoning, basically making the seeds to Code S a giant popularity contest, and that totally goes against the spirit of the competition.
On December 15 2011 03:54 mbr2321 wrote: GOM has still not owned up to the their terrible tournament format. I don't care that NaNiWa was take out of Code S because of his manners, or his emotions, or whatever. I'm still waiting for GOMtv to say that they shouldn't have put those two players in a situation where their match would be utterly meaningless. It's absolutely abysmal tournament structure.
Blaming the format is a cop-out. Nestea was put in the same situation and didn't do it. Yes the format didn't help matters as the game was meaningless, but a person can still use his brain and make intelligent decisions. If your character is strong enough, then the format is irrelevant to actions you choose to take.
On December 15 2011 03:53 Delicious Insanity wrote: I'm repeating myself, but whatever.
If you have a global tournament, try and find a middle road. Don't enforce the punishment that's normal for 1 of the cultures involved.
Please, in what country would this kind of behavior ever be acceptable? In what workplace would you find someone bitching about a rule not existing about doing "random disrespectful thing".
This is not about culture, this is about professionalism and taking your job seriously. MLG should've punished Naniwa aswell because he ridiculed them. I don't it's too much to ask to be manner and nice to the people around you while you're at work.
EPT
