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While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.
Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned!
- Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM
- Comparing people to Hitler
- Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum. |
On December 15 2011 01:37 Lonyo wrote:Poll: Should Idra be banned from MOST competitions?I think neither deserves to be punished (60) 51% I think only Naniwa deserves to be punished (31) 26% I think Naniwa and Idra should be punished (15) 13% I think only Idra deserves to be punished (12) 10% 118 total votes Your vote: Should Idra be banned from MOST competitions? (Vote): I think Naniwa and Idra should be punished
(Vote): I think only Naniwa deserves to be punished
(Vote): I think only Idra deserves to be punished
(Vote): I think neither deserves to be punished
Given that Idra has been shown to be BM in many competitions (MLG, NASL etc), and has shown abusive and unprofessional behaviour at various points in his career, should he also be punished? Is it right to punish Naniwa for what he did simply because it's in Korea, or should Idra also be punished by various leagues (per league) for his actions in each league? You can agree with either point of view, neither, or both. used by ALL competitions, both Korean and foreigner.
he should only be punished if MLG, NASL etc deemed bm as a serious offense, which they don't.
so no
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It's sad that some people would be fine with him doing a 4-gate with no chance in winning but feel they have been gravely disrespected because he probe rushed.
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On December 15 2011 01:32 pPingu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:28 Biane wrote:On December 15 2011 01:25 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:23 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 01:22 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:14 Velr wrote:On December 15 2011 01:11 HappyChris wrote:On December 15 2011 01:09 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:04 HolydaKing wrote:On December 15 2011 01:00 MorroW wrote:
why cant just gsl apologize and be the bigger man here and admit their faults for even having the game played rather than punishing naniwa to play a game that didnt matter
if a game doesnt matter, ask the players if they want or dont want to play the game, if not, then give w.o
its retarded and naniwa is the one taking the blow here for something that wasnt his fault so it would have gone in your mind to play like naniwa? in one of the most prestigious tournaments? just look like how extremely bored he looks. so disrespectful, while he could have gained so much respect. i suppose you have seen the video or even the live game, but go here if you haven't www.fomos.kr/gnuboard4/bbs/board.php?bo_table=talk_gossip&wr_id=394130 you dont ban a player for not having his hands on his keyboard while playing, if that was the case sjow wouldnt be a progamer anymore (:D) also you dont ban someone for looking bored this is a proffecional sports and players play by the rules of the tournament. naniwa did not break any rules. what is there left to say? Hahaha Morrow thats just so mean to sjow. lol Ahm.. If Naniwa would just have done nothing at all, this would also not be ban worthy? Because.. He is in the game, he just did do nothing... Because well... He was 100% throwing that game on behalf, i don't care how it looked.. No one should care how it looked. He did it, he got what you should get for stuff like this. we are progamers, not actors. if you want to watch acting go pay for a movie instead of a sc2 tournament they tournament admins again, must allow players to give walkover in a match that doesnt matter. its the format and the rules that allow stuff like this to happen. situations where players dont want to win, always gets messy. so im not saying what naniwa did was ethical or not, that doesnt matter to me. what matters to me is that gsl fucks up, points the finger at naniwa but not only that, punishes him for not acting a game and if you don't agree with GOM rule, you can not participate, or face the consequences thinking and acting you are bigger than the organizer there is no such thing as match doesn't matter in GSL. every match matters to them, despite how you feel otherwise but to my understanding he didnt break any rule that was existing at the moment? the OP talks about abuse but that is a very veig rule that can be very missinturpirated lol isn't this where precedent comes in? imagine if Naniwa gets away with a warning and someone else does the same thing (may not necessarily due to the same tournament format consequences etc.), then we'd be accusing GOM is double standards (for real!) If you find out some rule is missing after an incident, you create it after the incident. Punishing somebody for something that wasn't forbidden when he did it is wrong.
At the same time, finding loop holes to abuse (i'm not saying Naniwa did that on purpose or to spite GOM) by using missing rules/lack thereof is not something you want have occurring in an emerging business/situation/whatever. People can think, logic and reason. It is thus not unreasonable to thus ask them to at least logically layout the situation in front of them (putting aside emotions as a professional) to do the least that is expected of them, which in this case as least put up a half convincing effort of an attempt at a win.
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On December 15 2011 01:38 zala2023 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:37 Lonyo wrote:Poll: Should Idra be banned from MOST competitions?I think neither deserves to be punished (60) 51% I think only Naniwa deserves to be punished (31) 26% I think Naniwa and Idra should be punished (15) 13% I think only Idra deserves to be punished (12) 10% 118 total votes Your vote: Should Idra be banned from MOST competitions? (Vote): I think Naniwa and Idra should be punished
(Vote): I think only Naniwa deserves to be punished
(Vote): I think only Idra deserves to be punished
(Vote): I think neither deserves to be punished
Given that Idra has been shown to be BM in many competitions (MLG, NASL etc), and has shown abusive and unprofessional behaviour at various points in his career, should he also be punished? Is it right to punish Naniwa for what he did simply because it's in Korea, or should Idra also be punished by various leagues (per league) for his actions in each league? You can agree with either point of view, neither, or both. used by ALL competitions, both Korean and foreigner. why does this have to do the idra? idra tries his best and starts bming and complaining about protoss imba after he loses naniwa derped in a major gsl game and got called out for that pretty different bro
and idra was also never stupid while playing in GSL.
he even gg'ed in most of his games in GSL regardless of his opponents' strategy.
his bms were outside of GSL, so why would GSL punish him? (unless it was against a rule)
If naniwa did this outside of GSL, gsl would not have revoked his code S spot..
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On December 15 2011 01:38 aderum wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:28 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 01:25 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:23 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 01:22 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:14 Velr wrote:On December 15 2011 01:11 HappyChris wrote:On December 15 2011 01:09 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:04 HolydaKing wrote:On December 15 2011 01:00 MorroW wrote:
why cant just gsl apologize and be the bigger man here and admit their faults for even having the game played rather than punishing naniwa to play a game that didnt matter
if a game doesnt matter, ask the players if they want or dont want to play the game, if not, then give w.o
its retarded and naniwa is the one taking the blow here for something that wasnt his fault so it would have gone in your mind to play like naniwa? in one of the most prestigious tournaments? just look like how extremely bored he looks. so disrespectful, while he could have gained so much respect. i suppose you have seen the video or even the live game, but go here if you haven't www.fomos.kr/gnuboard4/bbs/board.php?bo_table=talk_gossip&wr_id=394130 you dont ban a player for not having his hands on his keyboard while playing, if that was the case sjow wouldnt be a progamer anymore (:D) also you dont ban someone for looking bored this is a proffecional sports and players play by the rules of the tournament. naniwa did not break any rules. what is there left to say? Hahaha Morrow thats just so mean to sjow. lol Ahm.. If Naniwa would just have done nothing at all, this would also not be ban worthy? Because.. He is in the game, he just did do nothing... Because well... He was 100% throwing that game on behalf, i don't care how it looked.. No one should care how it looked. He did it, he got what you should get for stuff like this. we are progamers, not actors. if you want to watch acting go pay for a movie instead of a sc2 tournament they tournament admins again, must allow players to give walkover in a match that doesnt matter. its the format and the rules that allow stuff like this to happen. situations where players dont want to win, always gets messy. so im not saying what naniwa did was ethical or not, that doesnt matter to me. what matters to me is that gsl fucks up, points the finger at naniwa but not only that, punishes him for not acting a game and if you don't agree with GOM rule, you can not participate, or face the consequences thinking and acting you are bigger than the organizer there is no such thing as match doesn't matter in GSL. every match matters to them, despite how you feel otherwise but to my understanding he didnt break any rule that was existing at the moment? the OP talks about abuse but that is a very veig rule that can be very missinturpirated lol again, how is match making not breaking any rules? Its so funnt, that you KNOW that a 7 probe rush is = match fixing and that NaNi wanted to loose that game. He didnt want to play it, but you have no reason to say he wanted to LOSE it. And calling it matchfixing is quite pathetic, matchfixing is when you fix a match for money (or some other reason), not that you just dont want to play a meaningless game.
seriously? did you even watch the game, or are you just trying too hard to defend naniwa. It was quite obvious that he was throwing it
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This
On December 15 2011 01:29 legaton wrote:
In WC3, Naniwa got banned from Dreamhack winter (for physically threatening a player!) and from the qualifiers of ESCW Sweden; he was also banned from two different tournaments of the ESL for his irresponsible/erratic behavior.
is very different from this
On December 15 2011 01:29 legaton wrote:
He acted mike a child in at least two huge tournaments (TSL3, tilting at the finals, then whining and refusing to go to the after-party) and MLG Providence insulting pretty much the entire organization on the main stage.
Naniwa simply doesn't know how to behave. As a spoiled brat, he thinks he can do whatever he wants on the main stage. He can't. He still doesn't get SC2 is also a business with huge organizations and sponsors. Instead of playing the devil's advocate, people should just realize Naniwa needs to acquire something called manners and good sense. Right now, he's unfit both for a serious gaming organization as for the corporate world.
Naniwa just needs to grow up, and his "fans"/"lawyers" should do the same. Informal rules of behavior are as important on any business as the written rules.
You are stupid for not realizing that. In the first one he actually harms people or doesn't compete(ESL). The second is him showing emotion. Everyone tilts and falls apart ingame at some point. You cannot blame people for tilting. It shows that a player cares so much about the game that it gets him frustrated.
I can't say anything about the MLG thing because I don't know what happened.
He is a player not an actor. If you want to see acted games open a new league and write scripts&storylines for it. Let's see how you like that.
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On December 15 2011 01:37 Lonyo wrote:Poll: Should Idra be banned from MOST competitions?I think neither deserves to be punished (60) 51% I think only Naniwa deserves to be punished (31) 26% I think Naniwa and Idra should be punished (15) 13% I think only Idra deserves to be punished (12) 10% 118 total votes Your vote: Should Idra be banned from MOST competitions? (Vote): I think Naniwa and Idra should be punished
(Vote): I think only Naniwa deserves to be punished
(Vote): I think only Idra deserves to be punished
(Vote): I think neither deserves to be punished
Given that Idra has been shown to be BM in many competitions (MLG, NASL etc), and has shown abusive and unprofessional behaviour at various points in his career, should he also be punished? Is it right to punish Naniwa for what he did simply because it's in Korea, or should Idra also be punished by various leagues (per league) for his actions in each league? You can agree with either point of view, neither, or both. Just wondering whether people think Naniwa should be punished for being Naniwa, for doing this in Korea, or because it should be a general rule used by ALL competitions, both Korean and foreigner, that BM or abusive behaviour should be punished.
At least in GSL, Idra never pulled a Naniwa.
Every league has different standards of conduct.
Just like how every province/states have different taxes.
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On December 15 2011 01:37 JiPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:35 XRaDiiX wrote:
Based on the Actions GomTV took i guess its ok to ban people for 6 pool or Manner Mule kk
Making up rules as you go along extremely unprofessional by Mr Chae.... i don't know what to say about rash harsh decision to ban NaNiwa this is huge mistake considering players are free to to whatever strategy they see fit... As I have said before, this rule already existed, just not on paper. And even if that probe-all-in was a strategy, he gave no effort to try to pull it off, which is evident with his hand on his chin instead of keyboard.
Based on what rule you think is relevant if a players i offended by strategy etc... if we can say that is a valid rule to be upheld
That means if a player is offended by someones cheese strat (eg: 6 pool,2 Rax, Proxy buildings) They should suffer the same punishment? No?
Like i said the post on page 195 makes more sense than any other post in this thread you just failed to read it.
On December 15 2011 00:42 VoirDire wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviors"
The problem is that what's offensive is completely arbitrary. Offense is not something "given", it's "taken". A person can choose to be offended by anything if he wants to, but you cant forcibly offend a person that does not choose not to take offense.
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On December 15 2011 01:38 zala2023 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:37 Lonyo wrote:Poll: Should Idra be banned from MOST competitions?I think neither deserves to be punished (60) 51% I think only Naniwa deserves to be punished (31) 26% I think Naniwa and Idra should be punished (15) 13% I think only Idra deserves to be punished (12) 10% 118 total votes Your vote: Should Idra be banned from MOST competitions? (Vote): I think Naniwa and Idra should be punished
(Vote): I think only Naniwa deserves to be punished
(Vote): I think only Idra deserves to be punished
(Vote): I think neither deserves to be punished
Given that Idra has been shown to be BM in many competitions (MLG, NASL etc), and has shown abusive and unprofessional behaviour at various points in his career, should he also be punished? Is it right to punish Naniwa for what he did simply because it's in Korea, or should Idra also be punished by various leagues (per league) for his actions in each league? You can agree with either point of view, neither, or both. used by ALL competitions, both Korean and foreigner. why does this have to do the idra? idra tries his best and starts bming and complaining about protoss imba after he loses naniwa derped in a major gsl game and got called out for that pretty different bro
BM is BM.
Idra is abusive towards opponents and often doesn't GG. How is that better than Naniwa throwing a game by not bothering to play?
The rule that has been cited relates to abusive behaviour, Idra has shown examples of that, so he';s an obvious candidate to pick.
It's unprofessional behaviour in both instances, you can't really dispute that...
Either unprofessional behaviour should always be punished, or it shouldn't. You can't say Idra hasn't gone over the line at the very least due to frequency... once is excusable, but he does it all the time in "professional" situations.
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On December 15 2011 01:38 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:36 ptrpb wrote:On December 15 2011 01:33 S_SienZ wrote:On December 15 2011 01:30 ptrpb wrote:On December 15 2011 01:27 S_SienZ wrote:On December 15 2011 01:25 sekritzzz wrote:On December 15 2011 01:23 S_SienZ wrote:
If Naniwa didn't sign anything with the GSL, then he isn't entitled to [sue for] his spot.
GSL-MLG exchange program is a contract between those two parties. Naniwa as a 3rd party shouldn't have a claim unless MLG is willing to back him up.
Just to throw it out there to the people saying Naniwa should sue. Actually he can sue. If MLG promises to give him a Code S spot which he earns due to ranking or whatever else, he is entitled to it by law. Maybe not from GOM, but MLG has to provide it for him or they can liable. LOL. Promises alone are not enforceable by law. Otherwise you'd get a major legal clusterfuck in the world. That's why you have contracts. Look up Promissory Estopel, if a party has made significant sacrifices that are unchangeable and grave enough. The promisor can be sued for not following through. It's rarely rewarded because the requirements are really specific and it probably wouldn't be enforced in this case, but I just wanted to let you know that you're wrong  I also know that promissory estoppel can only be used as a shield and never a sword. You can't use it to claim something, only to defend what you already have. If you know that then you don't need to run around TL stating blatant lies and over-exaggeration. If you have the knowledge, use it. We don't need more people saying things that aren't true around here wut? I'm just explaining to you that promissory estoppel wouldn't apply for Naniwa here, to reaffirm my 1st post. Blatant lies and over-exaggeration? I'm confused.
I already said it wouldn't apply. I'm talking about your original quote "Promises alone are not enforceable by law" which, like I said is wrong or an over-exaggeration.
I''m just frustrated with everyone coming into this thread without any facts spouting the same wrong stuff over and over. Don't take it personally.
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Reminds me of when the Detroit Pistons walked off the court when the Bulls smashed them. Very unsportsmanlike. People pay to see you play. You don't see teams that don't qualify for the playoffs throwing games in soccer, football, or basketball. This revocation was totally necessary. I'm impressed with the GSL's professionalism.
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On December 15 2011 01:36 ForgottenOne wrote:
All I can think is how I payed good money for the tournament, in part to see Nestea and Naniwa clash. Then I wait for hours to see this game. Then Naniwa pissed all over my money and time because he cannot suck it up and play a 15 minutes game.
On the other side, Gom are doing their best to enforce hard rules and to ensure tournaments get better and better each time and to protect my interests.
To conclude, if anything, these kinds of decisions from Gom should make you realize how serious they are and to thrust them more and want even more so subscribe and support them. I mean, do you even realize how many efforts did they make to give cheap and easy (compared to going through code A qualifiers) good spots to foreigners.
Then you should be mad at GSL. They should have some kind of price money difference between going 0-4 and 1-3 if they expect the players at 0-3 to play seriously.
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On December 15 2011 01:33 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:31 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 01:30 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:28 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 01:25 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:23 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 01:22 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:14 Velr wrote:On December 15 2011 01:11 HappyChris wrote:On December 15 2011 01:09 MorroW wrote:
[quote]
you dont ban a player for not having his hands on his keyboard while playing, if that was the case sjow wouldnt be a progamer anymore (:D)
also you dont ban someone for looking bored
this is a proffecional sports and players play by the rules of the tournament. naniwa did not break any rules. what is there left to say? Hahaha Morrow thats just so mean to sjow. lol Ahm.. If Naniwa would just have done nothing at all, this would also not be ban worthy? Because.. He is in the game, he just did do nothing... Because well... He was 100% throwing that game on behalf, i don't care how it looked.. No one should care how it looked. He did it, he got what you should get for stuff like this. we are progamers, not actors. if you want to watch acting go pay for a movie instead of a sc2 tournament they tournament admins again, must allow players to give walkover in a match that doesnt matter. its the format and the rules that allow stuff like this to happen. situations where players dont want to win, always gets messy. so im not saying what naniwa did was ethical or not, that doesnt matter to me. what matters to me is that gsl fucks up, points the finger at naniwa but not only that, punishes him for not acting a game and if you don't agree with GOM rule, you can not participate, or face the consequences thinking and acting you are bigger than the organizer there is no such thing as match doesn't matter in GSL. every match matters to them, despite how you feel otherwise but to my understanding he didnt break any rule that was existing at the moment? the OP talks about abuse but that is a very veig rule that can be very missinturpirated lol again, how is match making not breaking any rules? match making is only relevant if the game has any impact what so ever in the actual tournament. this is not match making match making is match making. Just because the game isn't important doesn't mean its not match making. so cella should be banned for doing a bunch of silly shit on ladder which have 0% win chance for match making even though it doesnt matter at all?
What does ladder have to do with GSL tournaments?
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On December 15 2011 01:37 zala2023 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:34 dawnstone wrote:On December 15 2011 01:29 BlitzerSC wrote:On December 15 2011 01:22 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:14 Velr wrote:On December 15 2011 01:11 HappyChris wrote:On December 15 2011 01:09 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:04 HolydaKing wrote:On December 15 2011 01:00 MorroW wrote:
why cant just gsl apologize and be the bigger man here and admit their faults for even having the game played rather than punishing naniwa to play a game that didnt matter
if a game doesnt matter, ask the players if they want or dont want to play the game, if not, then give w.o
its retarded and naniwa is the one taking the blow here for something that wasnt his fault so it would have gone in your mind to play like naniwa? in one of the most prestigious tournaments? just look like how extremely bored he looks. so disrespectful, while he could have gained so much respect. i suppose you have seen the video or even the live game, but go here if you haven't www.fomos.kr/gnuboard4/bbs/board.php?bo_table=talk_gossip&wr_id=394130 you dont ban a player for not having his hands on his keyboard while playing, if that was the case sjow wouldnt be a progamer anymore (:D) also you dont ban someone for looking bored this is a proffecional sports and players play by the rules of the tournament. naniwa did not break any rules. what is there left to say? Hahaha Morrow thats just so mean to sjow. lol Ahm.. If Naniwa would just have done nothing at all, this would also not be ban worthy? Because.. He is in the game, he just did do nothing... Because well... He was 100% throwing that game on behalf, i don't care how it looked.. No one should care how it looked. He did it, he got what you should get for stuff like this. we are progamers, not actors. if you want to watch acting go pay for a movie instead of a sc2 tournament they tournament admins again, must allow players to give walkover in a match that doesnt matter. its the format and the rules that allow stuff like this to happen. situations where players dont want to win, always gets messy. so im not saying what naniwa did was ethical or not, that doesnt matter to me. what matters to me is that gsl fucks up, points the finger at naniwa but not only that, punishes him for not acting a game if i was in naniwas position id request for a walkover, if not id drink 10 cups of coffee and get some food poisioning or some shit. because a player never wants to act serious in a game. because if he loses people think he played bad and serious, and if he wins, people know his build order. its a lose lose situation for a player to get into a situation where he has to play a televised game that doesnt matter You should probably watch some real sports, especially soccer. Do you see players of a team that got eliminated in the champions league that have to play the last match just sits on the field ?? No, they try to play as better as they can even if they are playing against Barcelona/Milan/Inter ecc. No they play with their B-team instead....... Pointless point you are trying to make. Since the players have something to gain from these games they can improve their chances for a spot in the staring line up for the next game, and some of them might even have salaries depending on how many games they play. So dont make retarded arguments please since Naniwa had nothing to gain from that game. sure naniwa had nothing to gain, but what about the people who paid to see the games? gomtv is not going to let naniwa shit on the people who paid to be entertained by their tickets lol
Then blame the format so games that dosent matter for anyone can be played. Send a e-mail to gom tv and tell them not to use this format since you dont get value from your money with this type of format.
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On December 15 2011 01:40 XRaDiiX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:37 JiPrime wrote:On December 15 2011 01:35 XRaDiiX wrote:
Based on the Actions GomTV took i guess its ok to ban people for 6 pool or Manner Mule kk
Making up rules as you go along extremely unprofessional by Mr Chae.... i don't know what to say about rash harsh decision to ban NaNiwa this is huge mistake considering players are free to to whatever strategy they see fit... As I have said before, this rule already existed, just not on paper. And even if that probe-all-in was a strategy, he gave no effort to try to pull it off, which is evident with his hand on his chin instead of keyboard. Based on what rule you think is relevant if a players i offended by strategy etc... if we can say that is a valid rule to be upheld That means if a player is offended by someones cheese strat (eg: 6 pool,2 Rax, Proxy buildings) They should suffer the same punishment? No? Like i said the post on page 195 makes more sense than any other post in this thread you just failed to read it. Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:42 VoirDire wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviors"
The problem is that what's offensive is completely arbitrary. Offense is not something "given", it's "taken". A person can choose to be offended by anything if he wants to, but you cant forcibly offend a person that does not choose not to take offense.
You still don't get it. It's not about WHAT he did, it's about HOW he did it.
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On December 15 2011 01:41 scaban84 wrote:
Reminds me of when the Detroit Pistons walked off the court when the Bulls smashed them. Very unsportsmanlike. People pay to see you play. You don't see teams that don't qualify for the playoffs throwing games in soccer, football, or basketball. This revocation was totally necessary. I'm impressed with the GSL's professionalism.
He played 4 games that day. The first three, that mattered, he tried his best. Your comparison is not valid.
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everyone knows if you are protoss and dont want to play for real then you cannon rush.
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On December 15 2011 01:39 Snijjer wrote:
It's sad that some people would be fine with him doing a 4-gate with no chance in winning but feel they have been gravely disrespected because he probe rushed.
You are speaking with hindsight now that you know he was going to give it up anyways.
If he just did a 4 gate and lost, no one would have thought he was throwing it away. Some may have even pitied him due to frustration. Others would have applauded him for playing his best in the last game.
If he just did a 4 gate, and then said he in an interview he didn't bother at all and he just wanted to finish it quickly, i assure you many people would be offended as well.
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EPT
