|
While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.
Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned!
- Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM
- Comparing people to Hitler
- Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum. |
On December 15 2011 01:41 Slin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:36 ForgottenOne wrote:
All I can think is how I payed good money for the tournament, in part to see Nestea and Naniwa clash. Then I wait for hours to see this game. Then Naniwa pissed all over my money and time because he cannot suck it up and play a 15 minutes game.
On the other side, Gom are doing their best to enforce hard rules and to ensure tournaments get better and better each time and to protect my interests.
To conclude, if anything, these kinds of decisions from Gom should make you realize how serious they are and to thrust them more and want even more so subscribe and support them. I mean, do you even realize how many efforts did they make to give cheap and easy (compared to going through code A qualifiers) good spots to foreigners.
Then you should be mad at GSL. They should have some kind of price money difference between going 0-4 and 1-3 if they expect the players at 0-3 to play seriously.
I'm sure you dont watch world cup because it also involves a group play where meaningless games are played.
btw Naniwa got what he deserved.
I say he got off lightly
|
but dont you guys agree in general making a rule where if a game doesnt matter, player should be allowed to request for walkover? or do you prefer them to be forced to play a game that doesnt matter? because this to me is far more important discussion than whatever else happened here
a rule like this to me, makes perfect sense
|
On December 15 2011 01:37 Lonyo wrote:Poll: Should Idra be banned from MOST competitions?I think neither deserves to be punished (60) 51% I think only Naniwa deserves to be punished (31) 26% I think Naniwa and Idra should be punished (15) 13% I think only Idra deserves to be punished (12) 10% 118 total votes Your vote: Should Idra be banned from MOST competitions? (Vote): I think Naniwa and Idra should be punished
(Vote): I think only Naniwa deserves to be punished
(Vote): I think only Idra deserves to be punished
(Vote): I think neither deserves to be punished
Given that Idra has been shown to be BM in many competitions (MLG, NASL etc), and has shown abusive and unprofessional behaviour at various points in his career, should he also be punished? Is it right to punish Naniwa for what he did simply because it's in Korea, or should Idra also be punished by various leagues (per league) for his actions in each league? You can agree with either point of view, neither, or both. Just wondering whether people think Naniwa should be punished for being Naniwa, for doing this in Korea, or because it should be a general rule used by ALL competitions, both Korean and foreigner, that BM or abusive behaviour should be punished.
What? When did IdrA start to be involved? This is the most ridiculous poll ever.
|
On December 15 2011 01:24 aderum wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:23 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 01:22 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:14 Velr wrote:On December 15 2011 01:11 HappyChris wrote:On December 15 2011 01:09 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:04 HolydaKing wrote:On December 15 2011 01:00 MorroW wrote:
why cant just gsl apologize and be the bigger man here and admit their faults for even having the game played rather than punishing naniwa to play a game that didnt matter
if a game doesnt matter, ask the players if they want or dont want to play the game, if not, then give w.o
its retarded and naniwa is the one taking the blow here for something that wasnt his fault so it would have gone in your mind to play like naniwa? in one of the most prestigious tournaments? just look like how extremely bored he looks. so disrespectful, while he could have gained so much respect. i suppose you have seen the video or even the live game, but go here if you haven't www.fomos.kr/gnuboard4/bbs/board.php?bo_table=talk_gossip&wr_id=394130 you dont ban a player for not having his hands on his keyboard while playing, if that was the case sjow wouldnt be a progamer anymore (:D) also you dont ban someone for looking bored this is a proffecional sports and players play by the rules of the tournament. naniwa did not break any rules. what is there left to say? Hahaha Morrow thats just so mean to sjow. lol Ahm.. If Naniwa would just have done nothing at all, this would also not be ban worthy? Because.. He is in the game, he just did do nothing... Because well... He was 100% throwing that game on behalf, i don't care how it looked.. No one should care how it looked. He did it, he got what you should get for stuff like this. we are progamers, not actors. if you want to watch acting go pay for a movie instead of a sc2 tournament they tournament admins again, must allow players to give walkover in a match that doesnt matter. its the format and the rules that allow stuff like this to happen. situations where players dont want to win, always gets messy. so im not saying what naniwa did was ethical or not, that doesnt matter to me. what matters to me is that gsl fucks up, points the finger at naniwa but not only that, punishes him for not acting a game and if you don't agree with GOM rule, you can not participate, or face the consequences thinking and acting you are bigger than the organizer Thats the problem tho, with the arbitrary rules of GOM. How would NaNi have known that he could get booted for probe rushing?
in most things i try to remain neutral so i'll attempt
when you do something like a probe rush (w/no micro) you've got to understand how people are going to interpret that, naniwa (most likely) knew how this was going to be interpreted, and he probably expected them to over look/not care for whatever reason, but what he failed to realize was that the koreans do care, above all else you've gotta respect them and the crowd and any arbitrary rules there may be , look no farther than the coca byun incident.
and about the progamers not actors this in a sense is false, + Show Spoiler + they are entertainers they make money by entertaining.
Gom gets views by entertaining these views lead to sponsor interest, and that leads to money. So in a sense the players ARE actors in a sense that its supposed to entertain. If every player cheesed cause that was the easiest/best way to win then NO ONE would watch, the games would be repetitive and boring. The players make money by being entertaining.
|
On December 15 2011 01:40 Lonyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:38 zala2023 wrote:On December 15 2011 01:37 Lonyo wrote:Poll: Should Idra be banned from MOST competitions?I think neither deserves to be punished (60) 51% I think only Naniwa deserves to be punished (31) 26% I think Naniwa and Idra should be punished (15) 13% I think only Idra deserves to be punished (12) 10% 118 total votes Your vote: Should Idra be banned from MOST competitions? (Vote): I think Naniwa and Idra should be punished
(Vote): I think only Naniwa deserves to be punished
(Vote): I think only Idra deserves to be punished
(Vote): I think neither deserves to be punished
Given that Idra has been shown to be BM in many competitions (MLG, NASL etc), and has shown abusive and unprofessional behaviour at various points in his career, should he also be punished? Is it right to punish Naniwa for what he did simply because it's in Korea, or should Idra also be punished by various leagues (per league) for his actions in each league? You can agree with either point of view, neither, or both. used by ALL competitions, both Korean and foreigner. why does this have to do the idra? idra tries his best and starts bming and complaining about protoss imba after he loses naniwa derped in a major gsl game and got called out for that pretty different bro BM is BM. Idra is abusive towards opponents and often doesn't GG. How is that better than Naniwa throwing a game by not bothering to play? The rule that has been cited relates to abusive behaviour, Idra has shown examples of that, so he';s an obvious candidate to pick. It's unprofessional behaviour in both instances, you can't really dispute that... Either unprofessional behaviour should always be punished, or it shouldn't. You can't say Idra hasn't gone over the line at the very least due to frequency... once is excusable, but he does it all the time in "professional" situations.
Idra has GG'd every tournament that has required him to do so. GSL was one of them.
|
Jokes on him, guess Nestea gets the last laugh. Don't know what the big deal is, NaNiWa intentionally did what he did to make a mockery of GOM tv judging by the unprofessional posture and his bored face. not only did he waste his time but the time of spectators who were expecting to see Code S level play, wasting the time of the commentators who go out of their way to do their job who dress in suits as professional as possible. Not some bull shit rebellious crap pulled by an angsty little girl. He's probably given a totally bad name to the Swedish people you all should be angered. Those in other countries including Koreans may even believe that perhaps, Sweden accepts this kind of behavior in their country? Try to see it as a bigger picture, not just amongst the minority of sc2 gamers. For those who think that what naniwa did is acceptable then you need to face the facts that reality is different from ideal. You can say he technically didn't break "any rules" but seriously, the real world doesn't always work like that. Try the NFL and NBA, lets put a team in there who doesn't want to face the other team, have them dance around the entire game to show their rebelliousness, they aren't breaking any rules, or perhaps they are? The bigger picture is is that it's completely disrespectful to the audience and the hosts of the tournament, it's wasting peoples money, the audience and the employees who help set this shit up. Seriously, use your god damn brain, you're dealing with an asian culture who in their perspective find this very offensive.
|
BAN the korean that didn´t shake inControl´s hand during NASL!!! It´s his fault he doesn´t know that you shake hands in most western countries! It was clearly against a lot of fuzzy rules and I as a foreigner was outraged!!!
ps. Let Naniwa stay!
|
On December 15 2011 01:36 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:34 Xax wrote:On December 15 2011 01:33 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:31 Namu wrote:On December 15 2011 01:25 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:23 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 01:22 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:14 Velr wrote:On December 15 2011 01:11 HappyChris wrote:On December 15 2011 01:09 MorroW wrote:
[quote]
you dont ban a player for not having his hands on his keyboard while playing, if that was the case sjow wouldnt be a progamer anymore (:D)
also you dont ban someone for looking bored
this is a proffecional sports and players play by the rules of the tournament. naniwa did not break any rules. what is there left to say? Hahaha Morrow thats just so mean to sjow. lol Ahm.. If Naniwa would just have done nothing at all, this would also not be ban worthy? Because.. He is in the game, he just did do nothing... Because well... He was 100% throwing that game on behalf, i don't care how it looked.. No one should care how it looked. He did it, he got what you should get for stuff like this. we are progamers, not actors. if you want to watch acting go pay for a movie instead of a sc2 tournament they tournament admins again, must allow players to give walkover in a match that doesnt matter. its the format and the rules that allow stuff like this to happen. situations where players dont want to win, always gets messy. so im not saying what naniwa did was ethical or not, that doesnt matter to me. what matters to me is that gsl fucks up, points the finger at naniwa but not only that, punishes him for not acting a game and if you don't agree with GOM rule, you can not participate, or face the consequences thinking and acting you are bigger than the organizer there is no such thing as match doesn't matter in GSL. every match matters to them, despite how you feel otherwise but to my understanding he didnt break any rule that was existing at the moment? the OP talks about abuse but that is a very veig rule that can be very missinturpirated lol I think you're missing the point though. It's not all about rules. In the end, code S was an "invite." Naniwa acted very unprofessionaly in blizzard cup, so gomtv decided to revoke that invite. Just like naniwa had the right to not play the game vs nestea, gomtv has the right to revoke the invite. I can see how this may seem ridiculous to foreigners, but as a Korean, I don't think it is. Respect is extremely important in Korea, especially when relating to professionalism. to my knowledge it wasnt an invite? mlg was a qualfier to code s and code a? Slasher confirmed that it wasn't the case. so is slasher a reliable source? i dont know this guy. i thought he was someone who just puts fuel on the fire in drama cases to his own gains?
best definition of slasher in a long time
so yeah, you're right in saying mlg indeed was a qualifier. nobody gave naniwa anything, he earned it.
|
Might be a bit harsh, but deserved imo.
|
On December 15 2011 01:35 IOvEggY wrote:
heres how life is.
if you act like a dick
karmas going to come back at you
Lets look at it this way.
currently GSL is the SC2 channel in Korea.
All the koreans watch this so they can get their fill for SC2
GSL/GOMtv is a Business
Naniwa is a pawn in the business.
Naniwas job is to give SC2 games because he is a PRO, that is why he is THERE
Naniwa DID NOT fulfill his job. You cannot call that a game of sending probes.
Please dont say this is even a legitimate strategy, thats just some technical bullcrock. Would you even do it on ladder?
GSL was like well **** you, you dont make our business look good peace
/Endofthisnaniwa
I actually agree with this interpretation. That being said the boss acted like a dick in return (insulting his "employee" in public) so he shouldn't act surprised when karma visits him too.
|
On December 15 2011 01:41 JiPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:40 XRaDiiX wrote:On December 15 2011 01:37 JiPrime wrote:On December 15 2011 01:35 XRaDiiX wrote:
Based on the Actions GomTV took i guess its ok to ban people for 6 pool or Manner Mule kk
Making up rules as you go along extremely unprofessional by Mr Chae.... i don't know what to say about rash harsh decision to ban NaNiwa this is huge mistake considering players are free to to whatever strategy they see fit... As I have said before, this rule already existed, just not on paper. And even if that probe-all-in was a strategy, he gave no effort to try to pull it off, which is evident with his hand on his chin instead of keyboard. Based on what rule you think is relevant if a players i offended by strategy etc... if we can say that is a valid rule to be upheld That means if a player is offended by someones cheese strat (eg: 6 pool,2 Rax, Proxy buildings) They should suffer the same punishment? No? Like i said the post on page 195 makes more sense than any other post in this thread you just failed to read it. On December 15 2011 00:42 VoirDire wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviors"
The problem is that what's offensive is completely arbitrary. Offense is not something "given", it's "taken". A person can choose to be offended by anything if he wants to, but you cant forcibly offend a person that does not choose not to take offense. You still don't get it. It's not about WHAT he did, it's about HOW he did it.
No, there would still be a shit storm even if he had microed his probes or whatever
|
On December 15 2011 01:36 Balgrog wrote:
This ticks me off big time. Naniwa put's his heart and soul into his gameplay. Sure he may be a dick at times and what not, but no one can deny his love. He didn't do anything to directly offend anyone. He didn't want to play, they wouldn't give him a walk over, he ended his game as soon as possible, said GG and left. I will not be purchasing a GOMTV ticket for awhile.
so 7 probe rish is putting his heart and soul into the game now ?
|
On December 15 2011 01:40 Lonyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:38 zala2023 wrote:On December 15 2011 01:37 Lonyo wrote:Poll: Should Idra be banned from MOST competitions?I think neither deserves to be punished (60) 51% I think only Naniwa deserves to be punished (31) 26% I think Naniwa and Idra should be punished (15) 13% I think only Idra deserves to be punished (12) 10% 118 total votes Your vote: Should Idra be banned from MOST competitions? (Vote): I think Naniwa and Idra should be punished
(Vote): I think only Naniwa deserves to be punished
(Vote): I think only Idra deserves to be punished
(Vote): I think neither deserves to be punished
Given that Idra has been shown to be BM in many competitions (MLG, NASL etc), and has shown abusive and unprofessional behaviour at various points in his career, should he also be punished? Is it right to punish Naniwa for what he did simply because it's in Korea, or should Idra also be punished by various leagues (per league) for his actions in each league? You can agree with either point of view, neither, or both. used by ALL competitions, both Korean and foreigner. why does this have to do the idra? idra tries his best and starts bming and complaining about protoss imba after he loses naniwa derped in a major gsl game and got called out for that pretty different bro BM is BM. Idra is abusive towards opponents and often doesn''t GG. How is that better than Naniwa throwing a game by not bothering to play? It's unprofessional behaviour in both instances, you can't really dispute that... Either unprofessional behaviour should always be punished, or it shouldn't. You can't say Idra hasn't gone over the line at the very least due to frequency... once is excusable, but he does it all the time in "professional" situations.
Naniwa and idra are free to BM all he wants, and there is no "punishment" as long as the tourney they're participating allows it. But don't cry a river when another tourney with a different standard of practice deem it as offensive and decide to punish you when you pulled the same stunt.
Just because you can criticize in your country doesn't mean its ok to criticize the government when you're traveling in the middle east
|
On December 15 2011 01:40 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:38 NHY wrote:On December 15 2011 01:35 zeru wrote:On December 15 2011 01:34 Xax wrote:On December 15 2011 01:33 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:31 Namu wrote:On December 15 2011 01:25 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:23 iky43210 wrote:On December 15 2011 01:22 MorroW wrote:On December 15 2011 01:14 Velr wrote:
[quote]
Ahm.. If Naniwa would just have done nothing at all, this would also not be ban worthy?
Because.. He is in the game, he just did do nothing... Because well...
He was 100% throwing that game on behalf, i don't care how it looked.. No one should care how it looked. He did it, he got what you should get for stuff like this. we are progamers, not actors. if you want to watch acting go pay for a movie instead of a sc2 tournament they tournament admins again, must allow players to give walkover in a match that doesnt matter. its the format and the rules that allow stuff like this to happen. situations where players dont want to win, always gets messy. so im not saying what naniwa did was ethical or not, that doesnt matter to me. what matters to me is that gsl fucks up, points the finger at naniwa but not only that, punishes him for not acting a game and if you don't agree with GOM rule, you can not participate, or face the consequences thinking and acting you are bigger than the organizer there is no such thing as match doesn't matter in GSL. every match matters to them, despite how you feel otherwise but to my understanding he didnt break any rule that was existing at the moment? the OP talks about abuse but that is a very veig rule that can be very missinturpirated lol I think you're missing the point though. It's not all about rules. In the end, code S was an "invite." Naniwa acted very unprofessionaly in blizzard cup, so gomtv decided to revoke that invite. Just like naniwa had the right to not play the game vs nestea, gomtv has the right to revoke the invite. I can see how this may seem ridiculous to foreigners, but as a Korean, I don't think it is. Respect is extremely important in Korea, especially when relating to professionalism. to my knowledge it wasnt an invite? mlg was a qualfier to code s and code a? Slasher confirmed that it wasn't the case. Again, slasher lied. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294713¤tpage=208#4154 Bunch of 'news posts' or liquidpedia page confirms nothing. How about goms own site? Show nested quote +At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
This has been said over and over again. Read the entire thing, not the parts that you want to read.
|
On December 15 2011 01:41 JiPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:40 XRaDiiX wrote:On December 15 2011 01:37 JiPrime wrote:On December 15 2011 01:35 XRaDiiX wrote:
Based on the Actions GomTV took i guess its ok to ban people for 6 pool or Manner Mule kk
Making up rules as you go along extremely unprofessional by Mr Chae.... i don't know what to say about rash harsh decision to ban NaNiwa this is huge mistake considering players are free to to whatever strategy they see fit... As I have said before, this rule already existed, just not on paper. And even if that probe-all-in was a strategy, he gave no effort to try to pull it off, which is evident with his hand on his chin instead of keyboard. Based on what rule you think is relevant if a players i offended by strategy etc... if we can say that is a valid rule to be upheld That means if a player is offended by someones cheese strat (eg: 6 pool,2 Rax, Proxy buildings) They should suffer the same punishment? No? Like i said the post on page 195 makes more sense than any other post in this thread you just failed to read it. On December 15 2011 00:42 VoirDire wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviors"
The problem is that what's offensive is completely arbitrary. Offense is not something "given", it's "taken". A person can choose to be offended by anything if he wants to, but you cant forcibly offend a person that does not choose not to take offense. You still don't get it. It's not about WHAT he did, it's about HOW he did it.
How he did it? What he 6 Probe rushed and lost then gg.... that's what he did...
Just because someone is offended by how he play isn't breaking the rules its arbitrary based on how the individual he played against and/or audience reacts to what he did.
Guess by that double standard then we should ban people for manner mules because its 'offensive' and we should ban people for 6 pool , 2 rax, proxy buildings.
You are the one who doesn't get it...
|
This argument about NaNiwa not breaking the rule is pointless. Why people kept talking and focusing on the rule! NaNiwa was INVITED to participate in Jan Code S not because he had won the second place in MLG, but because Blizzard Cup sponsored him to do so(Two sponsored players can be invited to participate in Code S according to GSL rule). Then after what nani did, GomTV decided not to invite him. (The word 'banned' is actually mistranslated by GomTV manager)
|
On December 15 2011 01:42 Govou wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:41 Slin wrote:On December 15 2011 01:36 ForgottenOne wrote:
All I can think is how I payed good money for the tournament, in part to see Nestea and Naniwa clash. Then I wait for hours to see this game. Then Naniwa pissed all over my money and time because he cannot suck it up and play a 15 minutes game.
On the other side, Gom are doing their best to enforce hard rules and to ensure tournaments get better and better each time and to protect my interests.
To conclude, if anything, these kinds of decisions from Gom should make you realize how serious they are and to thrust them more and want even more so subscribe and support them. I mean, do you even realize how many efforts did they make to give cheap and easy (compared to going through code A qualifiers) good spots to foreigners.
Then you should be mad at GSL. They should have some kind of price money difference between going 0-4 and 1-3 if they expect the players at 0-3 to play seriously. I'm sure you dont watch world cup because it also involves a group play where meaningless games are played. btw Naniwa got what he deserved. I say he got off lightly
Except this has never happened in the GSL before. Matches that didn't matter were skipped every time until Nestea vs Naniwa.
|
United States994 Posts
Slasher works for MLG in our video department. He is NOT a representative of the League. Any opinion or discussion from Slasher is solely opinion based.
|
On December 15 2011 01:23 BLinD-RawR wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I'm surprised no one has mentioned spoilers from today's blizzard cup interview
Here, let me do it for you.
+ Show Spoiler +Q : Anything else that you want to say?
Naniwa played a game yesterday that is not professional. I have heard that he threw away the game because it doesn't benefit himself. I want to lecture him. Pro-gamer as an occupation is not a job where you just play games between other pro players. Corporations sponsor us because the existence of fans make e-sports a product that we are trying to create. But I believe the behaviour from Naniwa yesterday was such a behaviour that betrayed and looked down on the fans. I hope he thinks about what he did and do not play a game like that again.
|
On December 15 2011 01:44 MLG_Adam wrote:
Slasher works for MLG in our video department. He is NOT a representative of the League. Any opinion or discussion from Slasher is solely opinion based.
oh wow
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
