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While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.
Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned!
- Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM
- Comparing people to Hitler
- Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum. |
On December 15 2011 00:46 gruff wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:44 baoluvboa wrote:On December 15 2011 00:43 Boundz(DarKo) wrote:On December 15 2011 00:39 iglocska wrote:On December 15 2011 00:36 Boundz(DarKo) wrote:On December 15 2011 00:36 azka wrote:On December 15 2011 00:33 dude_2 wrote:
i didn't read the whole thread. so sorry if someone has already written the same. but i am really wondering from the pages i have read, how people can argue there exists no throwing away of games in "real" sports. for example, it's pretty common in champions league (football) that already qualified teams send their b-team which is also a huge distortion of competition all the while other teams still playing for a spot.
anyone who has ever competed in sports knows that you don't play to your potential in a meaningless match and often don't make a real effort.
naniwa made it pretty obvious given that, but i as the audience can't blame him for that. Send your B team its one thing, but you will never see that B team do goals against their own team, which was what Naniwa did. Um... what? A lot of people here were arguing that a football team sending their B team to a match that has no value is the same as naniwa a-moving his probes into his opponents base. The reality is that doing a standard all-in like a 4gate / well known 2 base timing would be equal to sending the B-team and the probe a-move is the same as the players being fielded just standing still for the duration of the match. The problem here is that there are no rules that say "using only probes to attack" is not a valid starcraft strategy. This is what makes me the most upset. It's like GOM is trying to control how a starcraft game has to play out, something they will have to take up with Blizzard. I know the rule about not making fun of your opponent or whatever, that rule is waaaay too vague. And considering Naniwa is not from Korea, doesn't know their cultural traditions and preferences, I don't see how they could punish him at all. 6 Probes rush is really not a valid strategy. This point shouldn't really be argued. But people are arguing it when they say it's not a valid strategy. That suggest there are some arbitrary line where you go from valid strategy to unvalid. How do you judge this? People bring up his micro but micro is not strategy. What is a valid strategy?
A 6 probe rush cannot win against another zerg of equal caliber unless he went 6 pool, and EVEN THEN if he wasn't very good at defending against a probe rush. Probes lose to drones 1 on 1, and if he went 6 pool he would be able to get out 8 to 9 drones to defend (cancel the pool). So here are the two scenarios:
1) Naniwa is throwing the game because he doesn't care. Evidence? He didn't micro, he didn't have his hand on the keyboard, people in the audience could see him playing one-handed. In this scenario, there is no strategy. It's a "I give up immediately" sign.
2) Naniwa massively disrespects Nestea, using a build that can only beat someone of a lower caliber. In this case, probe rush is a strategy. However he doesn't even bother to micro so...
Which one do you want to pick?
If Naniwa was already in Code S and the revoke his Code S and banned him from competing at all, I would say that's far too harsh and GOM is completely in the wrong. His current punishment still feels too strong to me (as Naniwa will more than likely tilt from this and Quantic is going to be very unhappy), but it's not the end of the world.
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On December 15 2011 00:46 gruff wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:44 baoluvboa wrote:On December 15 2011 00:43 Boundz(DarKo) wrote:On December 15 2011 00:39 iglocska wrote:On December 15 2011 00:36 Boundz(DarKo) wrote:On December 15 2011 00:36 azka wrote:On December 15 2011 00:33 dude_2 wrote:
i didn't read the whole thread. so sorry if someone has already written the same. but i am really wondering from the pages i have read, how people can argue there exists no throwing away of games in "real" sports. for example, it's pretty common in champions league (football) that already qualified teams send their b-team which is also a huge distortion of competition all the while other teams still playing for a spot.
anyone who has ever competed in sports knows that you don't play to your potential in a meaningless match and often don't make a real effort.
naniwa made it pretty obvious given that, but i as the audience can't blame him for that. Send your B team its one thing, but you will never see that B team do goals against their own team, which was what Naniwa did. Um... what? A lot of people here were arguing that a football team sending their B team to a match that has no value is the same as naniwa a-moving his probes into his opponents base. The reality is that doing a standard all-in like a 4gate / well known 2 base timing would be equal to sending the B-team and the probe a-move is the same as the players being fielded just standing still for the duration of the match. The problem here is that there are no rules that say "using only probes to attack" is not a valid starcraft strategy. This is what makes me the most upset. It's like GOM is trying to control how a starcraft game has to play out, something they will have to take up with Blizzard. I know the rule about not making fun of your opponent or whatever, that rule is waaaay too vague. And considering Naniwa is not from Korea, doesn't know their cultural traditions and preferences, I don't see how they could punish him at all. 6 Probes rush is really not a valid strategy. This point shouldn't really be argued. But people are arguing it when they say it's not a valid strategy. That suggest there are some arbitrary line where you go from valid strategy to unvalid. How do you judge this? People bring up his micro but micro is not strategy. What is a valid strategy?
"not a valid strategy" was not a good choice of words, and maybe that's why you don't understand this. There were no strategy involved at all. He just threw the game away.
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Both GOM and Nani are at fault tbh. Nani doesn't want to conform to how they do things in Korea in the slightest (it would seem so anyway..), and GOM makes no effort to see things Nanis way nor understand that he is from another culture where this might not be as offensive ment as they think.
Also, eSports is turning out to be for fragile little flowers who you have to tiptoe around in order to not offend them. While I can understand that the koreans would be offended by stuff like this as korea is generally a reactive culture, I don't understand why all the westerners whinge and whine as much as they do. Grow a set.
My interest in Sc2 as an eSport is just diminishing little by little 'cus of stupid shit like this.
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On December 15 2011 00:46 gruff wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:44 baoluvboa wrote:On December 15 2011 00:43 Boundz(DarKo) wrote:On December 15 2011 00:39 iglocska wrote:On December 15 2011 00:36 Boundz(DarKo) wrote:On December 15 2011 00:36 azka wrote:On December 15 2011 00:33 dude_2 wrote:
i didn't read the whole thread. so sorry if someone has already written the same. but i am really wondering from the pages i have read, how people can argue there exists no throwing away of games in "real" sports. for example, it's pretty common in champions league (football) that already qualified teams send their b-team which is also a huge distortion of competition all the while other teams still playing for a spot.
anyone who has ever competed in sports knows that you don't play to your potential in a meaningless match and often don't make a real effort.
naniwa made it pretty obvious given that, but i as the audience can't blame him for that. Send your B team its one thing, but you will never see that B team do goals against their own team, which was what Naniwa did. Um... what? A lot of people here were arguing that a football team sending their B team to a match that has no value is the same as naniwa a-moving his probes into his opponents base. The reality is that doing a standard all-in like a 4gate / well known 2 base timing would be equal to sending the B-team and the probe a-move is the same as the players being fielded just standing still for the duration of the match. The problem here is that there are no rules that say "using only probes to attack" is not a valid starcraft strategy. This is what makes me the most upset. It's like GOM is trying to control how a starcraft game has to play out, something they will have to take up with Blizzard. I know the rule about not making fun of your opponent or whatever, that rule is waaaay too vague. And considering Naniwa is not from Korea, doesn't know their cultural traditions and preferences, I don't see how they could punish him at all. 6 Probes rush is really not a valid strategy. This point shouldn't really be argued. But people are arguing it when they say it's not a valid strategy. That suggest there are some arbitrary line where you go from valid strategy to unvalid. How do you judge this? People bring up his micro but micro is not strategy. What is a valid strategy?
Just because we can't come up with the exact line to draw to judge a valid strategy, doesn't mean it doesn't exitst, nor that 6 probe rush isn't one.
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Eh, he didn't really deserve code S anyway. I think it's kind of sad when there are a bunch of Koreans that can't get into even code A yet foreigners get seeded into code A or S directly because they did decently at MLG.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51701 Posts
On December 15 2011 00:51 Naeroon wrote:Can somebody answer a quick Q I got about this situation? I know it says that NaNiWa is only kicked out of a single season. But it also says his Code S seed is revoked - does this mean that his Code S seed is revoked only for a single season, or is it COMPLETELY revoked and he has to completely earn it back? Thanks in advance 
he can earn it back,he can still play in code A.
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On December 15 2011 00:50 JiPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:48 BLinD-RawR wrote:On December 15 2011 00:46 casualman wrote:
Kespa 2.0 has become a reality. It seems that stringent and unfair rules are a product of Korean culture in general rather than just of an isolated group of people. everytime I see someone call gom=kespa I just laugh man. I agree. Anyone spouting that GomTV is Kespa 2.0 has definitely not seen the douchebaggery that Kespa pulled in their reign.
Relative to SC2, this act by GomTV is possibly the highest on the scale of douchebaggery.
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On December 15 2011 00:50 Nightshake wrote:
This is seriously disgusting. I understand you pay for shit games like this, but you do what you feel at the moment. 6 probes rush is the fucking game.
Imagine if IdrA comes to GSL, he wil have instant code A, but no problem for his outrageous behavior like insulting players while having 7000+ people watching his stream.
you realize what idra did in GSL was that he doesn't gg, and that's it? he never insults player while playing live, at least not while he was in Korea.
He is not dumb, he has been playing starcraft 1 and 2 for years, he still respects the rules
What Naniwa did was essentially match fixing, an extremely obvious one at that.
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On December 15 2011 00:50 Nightshake wrote:
This is seriously disgusting. I understand you pay for shit games like this, but you do what you feel at the moment. 6 probes rush is the fucking game.
Imagine if IdrA comes to GSL, he wil have instant code A, but no problem for his outrageous behavior like insulting players while having 7000+ people watching his stream.
What Idra does on his stream, aside from cheating, is not GOM-TV's problem.
What Idra does on GOM-TV's broadcast, is GOM-TV's problem and he would get punished for that.
WHAT IS SO HARD ABOUT THIS TO UNDERSTAND?
There are some simple rules that i think should not to have written down in tourneys:
Don't (harshly) insult your opponent during the game. THIS IS SOMETHING TOTALLY DIFFRENT THAN PRE/AFTER-GAME BANTER.
Don't throw games on behalf/don't fix matches.
If you can't follow these, you probably should not be a progamer.. or gamer at all.
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On December 15 2011 00:42 VoirDire wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviors"
The problem is that what's offensive is completely arbitrary. Offense is not something "given", it's "taken". A person can choose to be offended by anything if he wants to, but you cant forcibly offend a person that does not choose not to take offense.
This post still makes perfect sense as to how GomTV was out-of-line with their actions and is totally unacceptable to punish NaNiwa in this way. He even says sorry in his interview. Heck i don't even like NaNiwa as a player that much and i think GomTV is overstepping their bounds
Clearly.
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Man, Gom really shot themselves in the foot by saying that bad manner was the reason for the punishment. Why they picked that over game-throwing, which is as obvious as it can get, we may never know...
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On December 15 2011 00:43 BLinD-RawR wrote:
idra maybe BM but he still shows professional behavior when he needs to, especially when playing in korea..
How so? How is it more professional to leave games that haven't been completed?
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United States23455 Posts
On December 15 2011 00:51 Naeroon wrote:Can somebody answer a quick Q I got about this situation? I know it says that NaNiWa is only kicked out of a single season. But it also says his Code S seed is revoked - does this mean that his Code S seed is revoked only for a single season, or is it COMPLETELY revoked and he has to completely earn it back? Thanks in advance
He'll have to qualify for Code A like everyone else. Through the Code A qualifiers and work his way up to Code S.
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Just adding my two cents as someone relatively new to esports...(I haven't been here for the BW scandal.)
Any sportsman that does any kind of sport as a profession do it because they are really good at it, have invested a lot of time and effort to become the best they can be and not because they are nice and respectable individuals. That's not a quality required to become the best of the best.
I'm not trying to justify Nani here, I even agree that what he did was very BM, however revoking anyone's right to play in a spot they deserve just kills the purpose of professional sport. People pay to see the best, not the best-behaved players. Therefore it should be the organizer's main goal to keep the best players around, regardless of their behavior. (I know, a lot of people claim he doesn't deserve to be there in the first place, but let's accept that Gom invited the selection of players they deemed most worthy.)
Go ahead and fine him, I'm sure it would still teach him to keep a leash on his temper while not interfering with his professional career. It's not a coincidence that in more convenctional professional sports there has to be a much bigger scandal than this to get bumped a league lower (and let's face it, it'll take a lot longer than a month for Nani to get back to Code S.)
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God good what an idiotic decision... a quite extreme overreaction to what Naniwa did imo.
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On December 15 2011 00:48 poorcloud wrote:
Gom banned naniwa because IT WAS OBVIOUS HIS INTENTION WAS TO THROW THE GAME.
THEY BANNED HIM CAUSE HE THREW THE GAME. NOT CAUSE HE WORKER RUSHED.
Nah, they banned him because they felt he didn't provide the entertainment they payed for. Throwing games is a problem because it influences the competition unfairly. This obviously wasn't a concern here so they aren't really worried about the fairness of the competition. They are concerned about the value of their product.
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On December 15 2011 00:50 Nightshake wrote:
This is seriously disgusting. I understand you pay for shit games like this, but you do what you feel at the moment. 6 probes rush is the fucking game.
Imagine if IdrA comes to GSL, he wil have instant code A, but no problem for his outrageous behavior like insulting players while having 7000+ people watching his stream.
But that is just a show for viewers.
When off camera Idra is a bro to most of the players.
And at least Idra actually tried to win before pulling out an early GG.4
Idra is a fucking saint compared to Naniwa.
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On December 15 2011 00:51 poorcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:48 Mietiex wrote:On December 15 2011 00:47 XRaDiiX wrote:On December 15 2011 00:42 VoirDire wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviors"
The problem is that what's offensive is completely arbitrary. Offense is not something "given", it's "taken". A person can choose to be offended by anything if he wants to, but you cant forcibly offend a person that does not choose not to take offense. This exact post explains exactly why its abhorrent and offensive and out-of-line and GomTV doesn't /Didn't have the grounds to punish NaNiwa for his actions.. Especially unprofessional critcism Mr Chae announces NaNiwa is an amateur prize money hunter. Totally true. This is what I wrote to GOMTV: Dear Gomtv, Banning Naniwa like this and the insulting words mr. Chae has spoken, has made me decide not to watch the GSL anymore and write this e-mail. First of all, you shouldn't make the rules so it can be so widely interpreted: During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours. Haven't we seen this many of times though, in different forms, by Korean players, in the GSL? Things like MC's thumbs down, or him bashing his fist on the player booth in GSTL. Not even mentioning the manner mules and Nexi. I think Gom has double standards and should either apply this rule to every player, or make the rules more specific, or (which has my preference) accept that this is part of gaming, emotions and stop worrying about insignificant things like a probe rush. I would rather see him throw away a game that is of no importance anymore, than dragging it out to a late, boring game. This is my opinion though and I am sure many other people think differently. However, if he would have done a 2 gate proxy or 4-gate, like many Koreans do when playing a meaningless game, it would have been acceptable to everyone. The fans and Gom need to accept that if a pro already lost a lot of games, is frustrated and wants to end the last meaningless game quickly they have the right to do so, or stop being damn hypocritical. Anyway, the dumb insulting remarks Mr. Chae made after handing out the ban was in my opinion way over the top and made me decide not to watch a show that has double standards and such an unprofessional CEO. Yours Truly, Piet van der Bijl The Netherlands. It would have been acceptable for him to do any other strat that may have worked because no one could obviously tell he was throwing the game. HE THREW THE GAME AWAY, and they are banning him for that. If he did something else, no one could tell for sure.
Yes exactly, you have to pretend to care like Hero did (even if he did a piss poor job of it) so they don't have any proof of you not giving a shit.
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wow saw this coming, deserved i guess
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EPT
