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While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.
Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned!
- Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM
- Comparing people to Hitler
- Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum. |
On December 14 2011 23:34 UkGracken wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 23:22 goswser wrote:On December 14 2011 23:21 Boundz(DarKo) wrote:
How do I delete my account on gomtv.net? blind swedish fanboys are retards listen FUCKING LISTEN , Its not about BLIND SWEEDISH fanboys, i actually have hated naniwa since his insulting all american players and getting banned on TL back in b3ta. But if i was walking over the road in england and a new Policeofficer from the USA pulled me for jaywalking, Then arrested me, I'd be pretty pissed off concidering i hadn't broke any rules, and that just because his culture has a rule doesnt mean shit when its not a law. Just think would you punish Nadal by throwing him out of wimbildon because he throws a match anywhere? No you fucking Gom are big bullys and its clear that mr chae would have did anything in his power to punish naniwa as harsh as he could. I will also be "boycotting" gom, There is nothing worse then a shitty company who make up rules as they go along based on there "cultures" idea of video gaming, Mabye that is why koreans lack in almost any other sport because there cultures idea of expanding there horizons is limited, I dont know im just speculating as thats all gom has allowed me to do. I mean Naniwa earned his place by finishing 2nd mlg it wasnt a "gift" ...a "gift" would have been if he finished below another player who didnt have code S and was given it, He went into this MLG knowing that if he finished below a code S and higher then anyone Not in Code S he would get what he EARNED. The funny thing is the only people gom are hurting is there company. I know many pro players .. State of the game, And other groups are going to thing this was utterly absurd, Mr chae insulting naniwa on stream then throws him out of gsl, fucking disgusting manager hopefully the revenue lost will ease the pain.
Lol What the hell is this??
First of all, your comparisons don't really make sense... It would be much more like if YOU went to the US and got a ticket for jaywalking. And that is the correct decision because you're in the US, so you must go by their rules.
Second, if Nadal was just double faulting on purpose every single shot, yeah, I'm 100% sure Wimbledon would have something to say about that, because it would be disrespectful to the fans who paid to see him play and disrespectful to the tournament itself.
I agree that he earned his spot in the GSL, but just as quickly as it was given to him, it can be taken away if he doesn't play by their rules. Going back to your first point, Korea has an honor code, so if you're going to participate in their tournaments and live in Korea, you should be respectful to their culture.
I think being banned for a season is a bit harsh, I think a fine would have been ok honestly. But I'm glad there was at least some sort of punishment so that this type of disrespect won't happen again. The world is full of different cultures so its only normal that not everyone will agree on this matter because it seems so wrong to some while perfectly fine to others.
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On December 15 2011 00:46 Kryptic.610 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:41 Ravomat wrote:
I'm not sure if I'm going to buy another GSL subscription ever again. They are pissed everyone saw how flawed their format is and Naniwa now has to pay for it. Instead of basically banning him for a season they should clarify what is considered a valid strategy and change their format so this shit doesn't happen again. Nani is good at exposing tournament defects. Difference is MLG manned up.
Manned up = let someone shit on your tournament on screen in front of tens of thousands of viewers and let them get away with it? Seriously if I let someone into a tournament win $10000s of dollars of prize pool, and they tell everyone on screen that it's a joke, they don't deserve the chance at the money I put is, simple as that.
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The soccer equialent of this would be to demote a team from Premier League to League One and not letting them play for a season. This becouse the manager flipped off the referee..
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In professional sports, when you want to throw a game, you put out your backups.
As Naniwa's interview said, he probably should've just 4gated to end it fast. Or he could've done something crazy like triple nexus before gateway (a crazy build in my eyes being the equivalent of starting your backups). At the end of the day, you're a paid professional, and it's inappropriate to act any different. Hell, even IdrA bothered to rage six-pool over rage drone all-in
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On December 15 2011 00:43 Boundz(DarKo) wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:39 iglocska wrote:On December 15 2011 00:36 Boundz(DarKo) wrote:On December 15 2011 00:36 azka wrote:On December 15 2011 00:33 dude_2 wrote:
i didn't read the whole thread. so sorry if someone has already written the same. but i am really wondering from the pages i have read, how people can argue there exists no throwing away of games in "real" sports. for example, it's pretty common in champions league (football) that already qualified teams send their b-team which is also a huge distortion of competition all the while other teams still playing for a spot.
anyone who has ever competed in sports knows that you don't play to your potential in a meaningless match and often don't make a real effort.
naniwa made it pretty obvious given that, but i as the audience can't blame him for that. Send your B team its one thing, but you will never see that B team do goals against their own team, which was what Naniwa did. Um... what? A lot of people here were arguing that a football team sending their B team to a match that has no value is the same as naniwa a-moving his probes into his opponents base. The reality is that doing a standard all-in like a 4gate / well known 2 base timing would be equal to sending the B-team and the probe a-move is the same as the players being fielded just standing still for the duration of the match. The problem here is that there are no rules that say "using only probes to attack" is not a valid starcraft strategy. This is what makes me the most upset. It's like GOM is trying to control how a starcraft game has to play out, something they will have to take up with Blizzard. I know the rule about not making fun of your opponent or whatever, that rule is waaaay too vague. And considering Naniwa is not from Korea, doesn't know their cultural traditions and preferences, I don't see how they could punish him at all.
If you think it is a valid strategy especially without even trying to micro then I don't know what to tell you. If I come from a culture where eating babies is fine and I happen to visit Sweden and eat a baby (without knowing anything about it) and the police don't want to do anything about it because I also happen to be an ambassador, then according to your logic, you don't see how the parents of the baby could punish me at all.
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On December 15 2011 00:46 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:38 hALLE wrote:On December 15 2011 00:02 Clearout wrote:Gah gonna post it here too: GOM's rules do not say offending or abusive they say "Displaying violent behaviors to threaten the opposing player or the audience." So there are two possiblities: 1. Either they are doing this without basis in any of their rules, which makes it an very harsh punishment considering they can do this completely on their whims, basing it on their subjective opinion of a players behaviour. 2. The rule has been translated wrong or can be enterpreted differently in Korean. Which means they are using a rule which is not clear for a foreigner to throw out a punishment noone can expect for their actions, which is also not justifiable IMO. http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/news/64582 Quoting this to get people to talk about, didnt see any replies after it was posted. I think this is an excellent post. If the rule they say they are basing it on doesnt exist/is findable on their site this all seems very weird to me. I honestly don't know why people keep talking about that rule. It bears nothing on this topic. It wasn't even mentioned by GOM as a reason.
That's kind of the whole point, this went way over your head. Naniwa didn't break any rules, so why is he being punished? And when I say rules I mean written out rules provided to the player, not emotional, half assed, arbitrary rules based on what the community feels.
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On December 15 2011 00:46 diophan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:43 Boundz(DarKo) wrote:On December 15 2011 00:39 iglocska wrote:On December 15 2011 00:36 Boundz(DarKo) wrote:On December 15 2011 00:36 azka wrote:On December 15 2011 00:33 dude_2 wrote:
i didn't read the whole thread. so sorry if someone has already written the same. but i am really wondering from the pages i have read, how people can argue there exists no throwing away of games in "real" sports. for example, it's pretty common in champions league (football) that already qualified teams send their b-team which is also a huge distortion of competition all the while other teams still playing for a spot.
anyone who has ever competed in sports knows that you don't play to your potential in a meaningless match and often don't make a real effort.
naniwa made it pretty obvious given that, but i as the audience can't blame him for that. Send your B team its one thing, but you will never see that B team do goals against their own team, which was what Naniwa did. Um... what? A lot of people here were arguing that a football team sending their B team to a match that has no value is the same as naniwa a-moving his probes into his opponents base. The reality is that doing a standard all-in like a 4gate / well known 2 base timing would be equal to sending the B-team and the probe a-move is the same as the players being fielded just standing still for the duration of the match. The problem here is that there are no rules that say "using only probes to attack" is not a valid starcraft strategy. GOM really need to make a rule that says you can't throw matches?
Yes.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50118 Posts
On December 15 2011 00:48 Mietiex wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:47 XRaDiiX wrote:On December 15 2011 00:42 VoirDire wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviors"
The problem is that what's offensive is completely arbitrary. Offense is not something "given", it's "taken". A person can choose to be offended by anything if he wants to, but you cant forcibly offend a person that does not choose not to take offense. This exact post explains exactly why its abhorrent and offensive and out-of-line and GomTV doesn't /Didn't have the grounds to punish NaNiwa for his actions.. Especially unprofessional critcism Mr Chae announces NaNiwa is an amateur prize money hunter. Totally true. This is what I wrote to GOMTV: Dear Gomtv, Banning Naniwa like this and the insulting words mr. Chae has spoken, has made me decide not to watch the GSL anymore and write this e-mail. First of all, you shouldn't make the rules so it can be so widely interpreted: During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours. Haven't we seen this many of times though, in different forms, by Korean players, in the GSL? T hings like MC's thumbs down, or him bashing his fist on the player booth in GSTL. Not even mentioning the manner mules and Nexi. I think Gom has double standards and should either apply this rule to every player, or make the rules more specific, or (which has my preference) accept that this is part of gaming, emotions and stop worrying about insignificant things like a probe rush. I would rather see him throw away a game that is of no importance anymore, than dragging it out to a late, boring game. This is my opinion though and I am sure many other people think differently. However, if he would have done a 2 gate proxy or 4-gate, like many Koreans do when playing a meaningless game, it would have been acceptable to everyone. The fans and Gom need to accept that if a pro already lost a lot of games, is frustrated and wants to end the last meaningless game quickly they have the right to do so, or stop being damn hypocritical. Anyway, the dumb insulting remarks Mr. Chae made after handing out the ban was in my opinion way over the top and made me decide not to watch a show that has double standards and such an unprofessional CEO. Yours Truly, Piet van der Bijl The Netherlands.
ban firebathero from the GSL!
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I thought Naniwa was put into a Kobayashi Maru, or a no-win situation.
Plays properly and wins: Reveals a strategy, or the public complains that Nestea didn't really try
Plays properly and loses: Gets flak for going 0-4
Plays around and wins or loses: Neither player didn't actually try
In every possible case, Naniwa's reputation wouldn't have improved. It's different than a showmatch in that a showmatch usually has both players feeling positive before the game, plus there might be a money incentive for winning. Both these players were 0-3 and were feeling terrible going into this game. How can you play properly like that?
GSL had already cut meaningless games from up/down pools, so this shouldn't have been any different. Naniwa probably should've argued that point to the producers before the game started. Still, I don't think GSL did the right thing here, and if they really wanted Naniwa to play Nestea in a meaningless match, they should just re-game later or something. Naniwa has now lost the $1400 stipend for being in code S, so this was a huge price to pay. Probe rushing like that shouldn't cost anyone $1400.
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On December 15 2011 00:46 casualman wrote:
Kespa 2.0 has become a reality. It seems that stringent and unfair rules are a product of Korean culture in general rather than just of an isolated group of people.
They have an extremely warped sense of respect and so does a lot of people in here, if anything it is disrespectful to expect someone as passionate as naniwa to play good game after the previous three games.
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On December 15 2011 00:48 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:46 casualman wrote:
Kespa 2.0 has become a reality. It seems that stringent and unfair rules are a product of Korean culture in general rather than just of an isolated group of people. everytime I see someone call gom=kespa I just laugh man.
I agree. Anyone spouting that GomTV is Kespa 2.0 has definitely not seen the douchebaggery that Kespa pulled in their reign.
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On December 15 2011 00:49 Umilard wrote:
The soccer equialent of this would be to demote a team from Premier League to League One and not letting them play for a season. This becouse the manager flipped off the referee..
*Because the team sat in the middle of the field for 90 minutes.
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Can people stop saying Hero threw his match against DRG?
He said he didn't throw it. He may be lying, but there's a huge difference in playing poorly and and not playing at all after issuing one command, which is what Naniwa did. And you're overlooking the long history of credibility between the two players:
1. Naniwa has always been notorious for doing things in poor taste.
2. Hero has always shown nothing but a good attitude in his past wins and losses. For him to suddenly break away from his usual pattern and throw away a game so that another player who has no affiliation with him (aside from nationality, which is baseless since Hero plays on a FOREIGN team) advances is ridiculous.
The very same forum you guys are posting to slander Hero sponsors him. The very same Hero who has shown nothing but appreciation for the opportunity to play for Liquid. He's always expressed that playing for Liquid is a privilege not a right.
You guys can cry all you want about how Naniwa and what-not, but back the fuck off Hero when he's shown nothing but good sportsmanship.
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This is seriously disgusting. I understand you pay for shit games like this, but you do what you feel at the moment. 6 probes rush is the fucking game.
Imagine if IdrA comes to GSL, he wil have instant code A, but no problem for his outrageous behavior like insulting players while having 7000+ people watching his stream.
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On December 15 2011 00:33 dude_2 wrote:
i didn't read the whole thread. so sorry if someone has already written the same. but i am really wondering from the pages i have read, how people can argue there exists no throwing away of games in "real" sports. for example, it's pretty common in champions league (football) that already qualified teams send their b-team which is also a huge distortion of competition all the while other teams still playing for a spot.
anyone who has ever competed in sports knows that you don't play to your potential in a meaningless match and often don't make a real effort.
naniwa made it pretty obvious given that, but i as the audience can't blame him for that.
When sports teams send in their B Team, the intention is to rest their A Team and to give their B Team better preparation in case they need to play games later (from A Team injury or w/e). That isn't match throwing unless you're saying that their B Team is a bunch of random people who don't play soccer. Their B Team is on their team in the first place because the team counts on them to play well for them when they are needed to play well. They haven't earned a spot on the A Team, but they are competent players and are paid by the sports team to play the game professionally. IT IS SIMPLY NOT MATCH THROWING.
You can compare this in individual eSports leagues with, when you're playing a bo7 and you're up 3-0, and you use a silly strategy that usually only works in ladder. You're resting your mind while showing an entertaining game, while not giving away any big strategies you might be keeping for a much more pinnacle game.
In a team eSports league, you see all the time in IPL and even GSTL sometimes (and other leagues ofc, but these include Korean teams) teams putting forth B Teamers to either start or get some practice in. That is because they feel confident in their B Teamers, but even more confidence in ther A Teamers to win after their B Teamers might lose. IPL, B Teamers have 5-0'd the best foreign teams time and time again.
This leads me back again, if a football team sends in their B Team, no matter what the case, they aren't throwing the match. They are playing a legitimate game with specific intentions that are understandable and respectable. Even though a team might feel offended that the other team has enough confidence to not play them seriously, (eSports example: NesTea vs HuK), they played them fairly regardless. A real game was played in which both teams were trying, in some shape or form, to win. The B Teamers don't try to lose for the team they try to win, and although the team might not need the win, they are shooting for it nonetheless, even if they aren't trying their absolute hardest because the match isn't super important.
I've seen plenty of NBA games where the entire starting lineup gets like 5 minutes of playing time, and then is sat for the rest of the game so they can play their best in the playoffs, and the team STILL WINS!!!!
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Can somebody answer a quick Q I got about this situation?
I know it says that NaNiWa is only kicked out of a single season. But it also says his Code S seed is revoked - does this mean that his Code S seed is revoked only for a single season, or is it COMPLETELY revoked and he has to completely earn it back?
Thanks in advance 
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On December 15 2011 00:48 Mietiex wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:47 XRaDiiX wrote:On December 15 2011 00:42 VoirDire wrote:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviors"
The problem is that what's offensive is completely arbitrary. Offense is not something "given", it's "taken". A person can choose to be offended by anything if he wants to, but you cant forcibly offend a person that does not choose not to take offense. This exact post explains exactly why its abhorrent and offensive and out-of-line and GomTV doesn't /Didn't have the grounds to punish NaNiwa for his actions.. Especially unprofessional critcism Mr Chae announces NaNiwa is an amateur prize money hunter. Totally true. This is what I wrote to GOMTV: Dear Gomtv, Banning Naniwa like this and the insulting words mr. Chae has spoken, has made me decide not to watch the GSL anymore and write this e-mail. First of all, you shouldn't make the rules so it can be so widely interpreted: During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours. Haven't we seen this many of times though, in different forms, by Korean players, in the GSL? Things like MC's thumbs down, or him bashing his fist on the player booth in GSTL. Not even mentioning the manner mules and Nexi. I think Gom has double standards and should either apply this rule to every player, or make the rules more specific, or (which has my preference) accept that this is part of gaming, emotions and stop worrying about insignificant things like a probe rush. I would rather see him throw away a game that is of no importance anymore, than dragging it out to a late, boring game. This is my opinion though and I am sure many other people think differently. However, if he would have done a 2 gate proxy or 4-gate, like many Koreans do when playing a meaningless game, it would have been acceptable to everyone. The fans and Gom need to accept that if a pro already lost a lot of games, is frustrated and wants to end the last meaningless game quickly they have the right to do so, or stop being damn hypocritical. Anyway, the dumb insulting remarks Mr. Chae made after handing out the ban was in my opinion way over the top and made me decide not to watch a show that has double standards and such an unprofessional CEO. Yours Truly, Piet van der Bijl The Netherlands.
It would have been acceptable for him to do any other strat that may have worked because no one could obviously tell he was throwing the game. HE THREW THE GAME AWAY, and they are banning him for that.
If he did something else, no one could tell for sure.
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people need to understand that the gsl gifted him a spot. he then threw a game which clearly has to be punished and they took his GIFTED spot away.
thats a pretty light punishment. how are people even upset with the gsl taking his code s spot?
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Here's a penalty i would have given to naniwa that in my eyes would have been the perfect and the maximum:
1. U say he plays for money and he should have played fully that game? OK...take away ALL HIS MONEY from that competition so -900$ or whatever
2. Ban him from Season 1 GSL
THAT should have been MORE then enough..but negating his Code S spot after he beat twice their best players? no...i cannot and don't want to accept that as a mature professional answer. That is just a grudge measure..nothing more
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Netherlands6142 Posts
On December 15 2011 00:38 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:29 Pholon wrote:On December 15 2011 00:25 Echo_ wrote:
This wouldn't have happened if he did what 99.9% of people would have done in his situation, which is to 4gate. People need to stop saying this. Requiring a certain strategy of a player is the complete opposite of what SC is all about..  It requires a strategy.
he made units and attacked his opponent. that's sc in a nutshell as far as I know.
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EPT
