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While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.
Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned!
- Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM
- Comparing people to Hitler
- Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum. |
On December 14 2011 22:21 Starcraftmazter wrote:What is most troubling to me, is that most people are completely missing the key issues here. My email to GOM: Show nested quote +Hello A few days ago, I purchased the GSL Premium Yearly Ticket (My account email address is the same as this and the same one as my PayPal account for verification). I am very unhappy with your completely unprofessional decision to punish Naniwa for doing nothing wrong against the rules, quite arbitrarily - while not punishing any Korean player, ever for any sort of "misbehavior". In particular the rule you are using as justification in regards to disrespect and offence of players can be used in many instances. For instance, in some GSTL, oGsMC went over and banged the both of his enemy player before the game. This is easily both offensive and disrespectful - yet no action was taken. This is but one prominent example, and I am not suggesting any action should have been taken; rather I am pointing out the unprofessional arbitrary enforcement of that rule, which seems to be applied against foreigners only. Furthermore, I find the insulting slur of "Mr Chae" on Naniwa very unprofessional and ill conceived, this along with other previous events clearly shows your bias against non-Korean players and casters. Overall, I am rather angered by the precedent that this sets, allowing GoMTV to disqualify, remove and otherwise take action against players based entirely on what you believe to be some form of bad play. Looking back at Blizzard Cup, LiquidHero also played very poorly (but unlike Naniwai who showed very impressive games, I would say all of Hero's games were very bad), and his last two games especially were very amateur in nature, as he stopped trying. This is not an objective matter either, and in particular in Hero's game against DRG, he have DRG a win - in a game which *actually mattered* to the outcome of the tournament, whereas the game between Naniwa and Nestea did not. I do not see any action taken again Hero for this? And I am a fan of Hero, but I am merely pointing out the double standards which exists in the GSL with Korean and non-Korean players. I cannot understand why you think the foreign audience doesn't see this - do you take us all for fools? My question is, where do you draw the line? What gives you the right to draw it arbitrarily so? And at what stage can a player be kicked out for cheesing? Why are certain types of cheese ok (like 6pool) whereas others not? Naniwai could have just as easily 4gated or cannon rushed and lost - all that would have achieved is wasting more of everyone's time. I would argue that in not wasting said time that Naniwai actually has far more respect for viewers and fans than you do, so I find your decision very arbitrary and reckless. Why for instance was BitbybitPrime not punished using this very same rule? Naniwa works extremely hard, practising more than the vast majority of players (Korean and non-Korean alike) to play the best games for his fans. This is more than I can say about what BitbyBit did - and the same goes for many other players over time. To then be punished and be insulted like so, is extremely unjustifiable. You clearly do not understand that people are all different, and some get quite emotional in some situations. Next is the issue of MLG seeds into GSL code S. You have now broken your partnership with MLG, as you have failed to keep your end of the bargain. This is a further slap in the face to foreigners and foreign tournaments. Even if Naniwa's seed eventually gets replaced by another foreigner, that doesn't change the fact that you are illegitimising a foreign tournament by taking away it's right to seed a player into GSL Code S, and instead stealing that decision for yourselves. It has also come to my attention that you have deleted comments you have made about revoking Naniwai's code S seed claiming he never had it. This does not exactly add to your credibility, as it is not exactly a secret that he did. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/mlg-and-the-gsl-create-groundbreaking-player-exchange-programThe rules are stated very clearly, he earned his code S spot in Providence. I am unsure why you would try to claim he did not - again, do you take foreigners for complete idiots? You must understand, at this stage this is far beyond the Naniwa vs Nestea game. Now the bias of GomTV against foreigners as well as the behaviour of the tournament organisers to do whatever they want regardless of the rules is put in question. Furthermore on that note, you have taken a complete lack of responsibility for designing a tournament system which allows for meaningless games that don't have any result on any outcome. In conclusion, I am very displeased with this. I have supported the GSL and payed for virtually every season and event single since I first learned about it in 2010. Even these days, I end up defending GomTV from all the bad comments about the stream quality being far worse than MLG and Dreamhack - even on "HD". I really love Tastosis and always tune in to watch them cast regardless of who's playing. But this is really the last straw for me, I cannot possibly support you any longer as it seems to me that you have lost your integrity. Unless you plan to fully reverse your decision to take Naniwai's code S spot, or hand out any meaningful punishment in general (perhaps you can make it as meaningless as the game for which he was punished?), I request a full refund. If this refund is not given, or this email disregarded, I will take it up with PayPal. As the year 2012 has not even started yet, I am sure there is zero argument against getting a full refund. Lastly, being a long-term supporter, I appreciate this email be passed to some form of management so that my feelings be conveyed to them - as I believe I have made a lot of good arguments, which really deserve to be thought about by the management of the GSL. Thank You ---
You should post a blog about this as I would be interested to see their reply if they do reply at all.
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On December 14 2011 22:23 Xax wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:21 Starcraftmazter wrote:What is most troubling to me, is that most people are completely missing the key issues here. My email to GOM: Hello A few days ago, I purchased the GSL Premium Yearly Ticket (My account email address is the same as this and the same one as my PayPal account for verification). I am very unhappy with your completely unprofessional decision to punish Naniwa for doing nothing wrong against the rules, quite arbitrarily - while not punishing any Korean player, ever for any sort of "misbehavior". In particular the rule you are using as justification in regards to disrespect and offence of players can be used in many instances. For instance, in some GSTL, oGsMC went over and banged the both of his enemy player before the game. This is easily both offensive and disrespectful - yet no action was taken. This is but one prominent example, and I am not suggesting any action should have been taken; rather I am pointing out the unprofessional arbitrary enforcement of that rule, which seems to be applied against foreigners only. Furthermore, I find the insulting slur of "Mr Chae" on Naniwa very unprofessional and ill conceived, this along with other previous events clearly shows your bias against non-Korean players and casters. Overall, I am rather angered by the precedent that this sets, allowing GoMTV to disqualify, remove and otherwise take action against players based entirely on what you believe to be some form of bad play. Looking back at Blizzard Cup, LiquidHero also played very poorly (but unlike Naniwai who showed very impressive games, I would say all of Hero's games were very bad), and his last two games especially were very amateur in nature, as he stopped trying. This is not an objective matter either, and in particular in Hero's game against DRG, he have DRG a win - in a game which *actually mattered* to the outcome of the tournament, whereas the game between Naniwa and Nestea did not. I do not see any action taken again Hero for this? And I am a fan of Hero, but I am merely pointing out the double standards which exists in the GSL with Korean and non-Korean players. I cannot understand why you think the foreign audience doesn't see this - do you take us all for fools? My question is, where do you draw the line? What gives you the right to draw it arbitrarily so? And at what stage can a player be kicked out for cheesing? Why are certain types of cheese ok (like 6pool) whereas others not? Naniwai could have just as easily 4gated or cannon rushed and lost - all that would have achieved is wasting more of everyone's time. I would argue that in not wasting said time that Naniwai actually has far more respect for viewers and fans than you do, so I find your decision very arbitrary and reckless. Why for instance was BitbybitPrime not punished using this very same rule? Naniwa works extremely hard, practising more than the vast majority of players (Korean and non-Korean alike) to play the best games for his fans. This is more than I can say about what BitbyBit did - and the same goes for many other players over time. To then be punished and be insulted like so, is extremely unjustifiable. You clearly do not understand that people are all different, and some get quite emotional in some situations. Next is the issue of MLG seeds into GSL code S. You have now broken your partnership with MLG, as you have failed to keep your end of the bargain. This is a further slap in the face to foreigners and foreign tournaments. Even if Naniwa's seed eventually gets replaced by another foreigner, that doesn't change the fact that you are illegitimising a foreign tournament by taking away it's right to seed a player into GSL Code S, and instead stealing that decision for yourselves. It has also come to my attention that you have deleted comments you have made about revoking Naniwai's code S seed claiming he never had it. This does not exactly add to your credibility, as it is not exactly a secret that he did. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/mlg-and-the-gsl-create-groundbreaking-player-exchange-programThe rules are stated very clearly, he earned his code S spot in Providence. I am unsure why you would try to claim he did not - again, do you take foreigners for complete idiots? You must understand, at this stage this is far beyond the Naniwa vs Nestea game. Now the bias of GomTV against foreigners as well as the behaviour of the tournament organisers to do whatever they want regardless of the rules is put in question. Furthermore on that note, you have taken a complete lack of responsibility for designing a tournament system which allows for meaningless games that don't have any result on any outcome. In conclusion, I am very displeased with this. I have supported the GSL and payed for virtually every season and event single since I first learned about it in 2010. Even these days, I end up defending GomTV from all the bad comments about the stream quality being far worse than MLG and Dreamhack - even on "HD". I really love Tastosis and always tune in to watch them cast regardless of who's playing. But this is really the last straw for me, I cannot possibly support you any longer as it seems to me that you have lost your integrity. Unless you plan to fully reverse your decision to take Naniwai's code S spot, or hand out any meaningful punishment in general (perhaps you can make it as meaningless as the game for which he was punished?), I request a full refund. If this refund is not given, or this email disregarded, I will take it up with PayPal. As the year 2012 has not even started yet, I am sure there is zero argument against getting a full refund. Lastly, being a long-term supporter, I appreciate this email be passed to some form of management so that my feelings be conveyed to them - as I believe I have made a lot of good arguments, which really deserve to be thought about by the management of the GSL. Thank You --- I hope you got your facts straight before sending that email 
Naniwa got his seed from MLG and the factual information presented on the Email seems accurate to me.
If you post sentences like that, including a smiley face at the end, you should also spend the time to say why you think what he stated is incorrect, rather than suggesting something and then lacking to provide proof for what you are saying.
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On December 14 2011 22:25 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:23 Vardant wrote:On December 14 2011 22:21 NHY wrote:On December 14 2011 22:17 HappyChris wrote:On December 14 2011 22:09 Zzoram wrote:On December 14 2011 22:08 HappyChris wrote:On December 14 2011 22:06 ethos wrote:
What is so difficult about this.
Naniwa was disrespectful. Naniwa was sent to the corner.
You shouldn't be sad for Naniwa, you should be sad that it seems that esports has to raise other people's children.
You don't get on their stage and then in the middle of it decide not to play by their rules because your feelings are hurt, and then get away with it scot-free (this isn't even that big of a punishment, its only a month, unless I'm mistaken).
Gom has to be sure that the decisions that they make for the sake of the fans (format) are adhered to by the players that take their stage, even when you get the shitty end of the stick.
We all have to sacrifice sometimes.
Such is (adult) life.
Naniwa gets a free pass why? Because you like him? Naniwa won his spot like DRG and MMA did before him. What did Idra and Sen win to win claim that Code S spot? Idra won IEM. Sen beat Naniwa to take 3rd place at Blizzcon behind MVP and Nestea. Dude they dont got a fuckign exchange program with GSL do they? MLG got an exchange program. MMA and DRG won there code S spot true that so did Naniwa. You get it. No exchange program for Providence. Stop spreading rumors, MLG clearly says he was given the spot, but some random guy on twitter says differently and you believe him? No, I have been saying this since the day Naniwa got 2nd.
So you didn't believe the casters and the two MLG articles? Care to explain it with an actual source and not just repeating, there were no seeds?
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On December 14 2011 22:08 bittman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:05 Pwnographics wrote:On December 14 2011 22:05 Magic_Mike wrote:
If Nani really didn't have a Code S spot then why did Chae feel the need to say that it was being revoked. Seems a little sketchy. Maybe he should have tried harder in his game but really, there was according to Mr. Chae, nothing in it for him anyway. If there is nothing to be gained, why try your hardest or even try at all? It is a complete waste of time. Since there was no code S spot being revoked I don't see why they had to say anything other than to be a giant ass and insult someone since it didn't matter anyway. That's like saying well "Well, I was going to give you this cookie if you do such and such but since you didn't you don't get it. Well, actually, I was never going to give you the cookie anyway." WTF. He never said it was revoked, 3rd party sources say so. Sooooo, I'm starting to gather that this entire thread is a shitstorm created out of nothing? Can someone please give me some cold hard facts here? All I feel I'm reading is rumour and confusion =/ Thread won't slow down for long enough for facts to properly come out though, freaking drama generators! D=
Nani and Nestea were 0-3 in Blizzard Cup and playing a no steaks game. Nani a-moved his probes to Nestea's base then GGed when they died.
Shitstorm on twitter, shitstorm from Korean players.
Nani loses Code S spot due to his behaviour being "abusive".
Gets insulted by Mr.Chae.
Apparently he never actually had a Code S spot. Idra and Sen get them.
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On December 14 2011 22:26 Jameser wrote:
revoking code S status because the player didn't perform "up to expectation" in another tournament? what a joke!
how come they allowed two full seasons of nothing but bitbybit SCV rushes without banning anyone? it's completely arbitrary and stupid and what's worse it makes me not able to take the GSL seriously as a tournament
imagine any other tournament doing something like this, imagine if MLG banned incontrol from the champ seed because he wasn't playing good enough in their eyes
The monkey didnt dance good enough, so now he is made obsolete in the GOMTV Empire.
ALL BOW TO MR CHAE!
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How are they going to define "offending the opponent or audience" in the future? This is dumb because he didn't do anything wrong.
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On December 14 2011 22:26 XRaDiiX wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Wtf is people saying he didn't Earned his Code S Spot a bunch of Smurfs paid by Gom to spread rumors they are back peddling
Uninviting a player from Code S is same as Revoking his Code S Spot
GomTV is just back-peddling from their unprofessional decision to revoke Naniwas Code S Spot for probe rushing
Naniwa didn't do anything wrong there is nothing wrong with probe rushing. Show nested quote +"Mr.Chae has announced that they made Code S seeds for a professional minded pro-gamer not for an amateur prize money hunter. It is official that Naniwa is given a punishment"
Wow he really said that ? Thats more amateurish like everything naniwa did the last 2 years. This is ridiculous
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On December 14 2011 22:22 SasukeStreams wrote:
Every player has the right to play the match in whatever way he wants.
And every tournament has the right to refuse whatever players are acting like 12 year old children.
Imagine a team walking out of the stadium at the end of the first quarter, or when they've been statistically eliminated from group just up and going home. There would be riots. It would be completely unacceptable. There is a difference between playing a B-team and simply not playing. As others have said, go cheese. Play poorly. Whatever.
Just do NOT insult your opponent or the fans by A-moving 6 probes and folding your arms in your booth like a petulant pre-teen. Moletrap said it on the stream while the probes were headed down to Nestea's base. It's disgusting and Naniwa should be ashamed.
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On December 14 2011 22:26 Jameser wrote:
revoking code S status because the player didn't perform "up to expectation" in another tournament? what a joke!
how come they allowed two full seasons of nothing but bitbybit SCV rushes without banning anyone? it's completely arbitrary and stupid and what's worse it makes me not able to take the GSL seriously as a tournament
imagine any other tournament doing something like this, imagine if MLG banned incontrol from the champ seed because he wasn't playing good enough in their eyes
How hard is it to understand that they judge it based on the relative abilities of the players? Now, I agree that the rule is too vague, but the your examples are pretty terrible.
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On December 14 2011 22:26 XRaDiiX wrote:Wtf is people saying he didn't Earned his Code S Spot a bunch of Smurfs paid by Gom to spread rumors they are back peddling Uninviting a player from Code S is same as Revoking his Code S Spot GomTV is just back-peddling from their unprofessional decision to revoke Naniwas Code S Spot for probe rushing Naniwa didn't do anything wrong there is nothing wrong with probe rushing. Show nested quote +"Mr.Chae has announced that they made Code S seeds for a professional minded pro-gamer not for an amateur prize money hunter. It is official that Naniwa is given a punishment"
there is nothing wrong with probe rushing. there is something wrong with sending in your probes with your hands on your face
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Everyone remember to Email and Tweet @GOMTV and @WoWnStarcraft so they know what an unprofitable decision they made
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On December 14 2011 22:25 baoluvboa wrote:Ya because no Koreans were seeded into the championship bracket.
This seemed to be the clearest way to tell/show people (who are TLDR) that the exchange program didnt stand for providence.
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Wait, i thought the gsl was being held in South korea, not North.
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I can't believe there are actually people defending Nani. I guess the TL community is still forgiving to a fault.
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Fair decision by Gom, if anything (compared to transgressions by earlier offenders) this is rather light.
I will continue to pay for their product.
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to give sort of a TL:DR:
nAniwa would have been given a code s spot due to popularity and good placements in big tournaments. He did not earn a spot through the GSL-MLG program (because they didn't have such for providence.) This meaning it was not written, which means that GOM can go back on what they said and be in the right. MR.Chae goes out and says some really uneccesarily disrespectful comments about nAniwa (in my opinion) which adds to the fire that some TL netizens have. What might need to be taken into account is how well mr.chae can articulate what's on his mind in english and that what he said might have less of a meaning in korean.
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On December 14 2011 22:26 Mirror0423 wrote:
to people who are mad at Gom about this:
#1, I'm sure some of you are soccer fans, and love the world cup. There are games in the world cup group stages that are pointless. So are you saying that two teams in that situation to be allowed to just come out and just take a nap on the field for 90 min each and just go home? It's supposed to be a premier tournament. You're supposed to have respect for the game itself. Is the format imperfect? of course, but what format IS perfect? It's about being held to a higher standard because you are a professional. If some soccer team in a kiddy league game came out and didn't play because they were already knocked out, then no one really cares. But if some team did that in the World Cup and FIFA didn't take action, soccer fans would be FURIOUS. Same for any sports really. Respect the game you're playing.
#2, It was very very short sighted of naniwa to do this. Sadly it's how the whole pro scene sort of is right now, and how naniwa has no real idea on how to really market himself. But if in the football season (for americans) in the last game of the season, if a player was playing less than his best on purpose, wouldn't that be devaluing himself? Shouldn't naniwa, especially after all the team finding struggles, at least TRY to show that he can be be mannered.... you know.. for when this contract expires? Even if quantic resigns him, it'd be beneficial to him if other teams were eager to sign him as well
#3, Way to ruin your reputation in another country naniwa. I mean, honestly, i've read through the Korean forums, and most of the time they were like "Who the hell is this naniwa kid?" Most people didn't know the details of the MLG incident, and they know even less about his team being moved around a lot. This was an amazing chance for him to get a fresh start at another country, but he took that chance and blew it's brains out.
#4, Completely wrong attitude. (Btw, broodwar reference coming.) Do you really think Flash wanted to play that game after he was handed a forfiet loss cause of the black out in the MLG against Jaedong? Do you think Silent_Control wanted to show up to that game, when he knew he was terribly sick, agianst GoRush where he fainted on national TV? Do you think GoRush really didn't want to take that free win he was offered? There are amazing number of cases where people are faced with imperfect situations. Isn't a professional supposed to be able to look past that and at least TRY your best, to do the right thing?
There was a game I think in... the last european championship where the two teams was at 1-1 and they just passed the ball around because both of them were going to advance... The defending team kept the ball on their court and the attacking team didn't advance. This was "clever play" it wasn't fun to watch but it was not against the rules.
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On December 14 2011 22:26 Vardant wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:25 baoluvboa wrote:Ya because no Koreans were seeded into the championship bracket. It's not wrong and there were no seeds, because it was a different format.
And thus no Code S seed.
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On December 14 2011 22:21 Pwnographics wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:20 mcc wrote:On December 14 2011 22:07 Pwnographics wrote:On December 14 2011 22:05 bikefrog wrote:On December 14 2011 21:59 harobi wrote:
its good to always have standard, nice job GOM. just ignore this "i won't buy next gsl ticket " or "i will never watch gsl again" haters gonna hate. Yes, ignore a significant economic loss, Einstein. Significant? How many people watch the GSL purely for Naniwa alone? Korea which has the largest viewership of the GSL strongly support this decision. All in all it might increase the money GOM earns. You assume that only people that want to watch Naniwa will stop watching ? Maybe, but I definitely will not watch or pay anymore and I could care less about Naniwa in code S. Hypocrisy, stupidity and valuing pretend above honesty are things that irk me. Hypocrisy right? TL Naniwa interview: "So if you suffer a bad loss in the groups early on, do you think you can bounce back? It doesn't matter to me in other games if I win or lose the previous match, I just treat each match like it's the same thing, and give it my best.
Way to take it out of context. He was talking about "bouncing back" which was not the case here as there was no bouncing back possible. From the context it was quite clear. But that is beside the point, Naniwa being hypocritical would have no impact on whether GOM is.
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On December 14 2011 22:20 Chickenlegs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:17 oban wrote:On December 14 2011 22:10 Chickenlegs wrote:On December 14 2011 22:07 oban wrote:On December 14 2011 21:53 shadymmj wrote:On December 14 2011 21:50 oban wrote:
Way too harsh of a punishment. GOM really are amateurs in every way possible and not worthy of hosting internatoinal tournaments. They fucked over Stephano last time when MC seemed to play to have DRG move to the next round. Wouldn't surprise me at all if the issue is racism. yes swedish genius disqualify a misbehaving white dude and invite another white dude to play totally racist I've seen people misbehaving plenty of times in the GSL. Not to mention Idra forfeiting games, but apparently it's fine when Americans and Koreans do it, probably due to their partnership with MLG. Idra even put Zenio in the same group as MC and laughed about it afterwards. And he gets invited back into code S? Do you call that sportsmanship? Gom is a joke organization. I'm sure racism is a big part of their decisions in the last few days. On behalf of swedish people I apologize for this one, I hope for all our sake that he is still young so we can rectify the mistakes and make him a normal human being. You don't have to apologize for me kid and I'm most likely older than 99% on this forum. I have to assume you think it's ok for Gom to use different standards depending on who they're dealing with then? As for the racial issue I've lived in SKorea and know what I'm talking about. Disgusting! Well then clearly the old ways of teaching were way off and we should all be glad that we changed it. I'm sorry but I cannot engage into a serious discussion against you when you spew random shit that isn't even true.
It's fine. Once you want to refute my points instead of coming up with insults you're welcome to engage in a discussion.
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EPT
