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On December 14 2011 19:39 hjop wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:04 billz wrote:
If this was any other sport then lawyers would be consulted right now about lodging legal proceedings against Gom. Pretty scandalous behaviour from them - can you really imagine Manchester United getting banned from a tournament for fielding a weakened team in a game that doesn't matter? Great comparison, except a 6 probe rush has a ZERO % chance of winning at all, where as a WEAKENED Manchester United team always has a chance of winning AND they are giving lesser experienced players an opportunity to get some experience. I think you'd be better off comparing it to Manchester United not showing up at all, because then they'd have a ZERO % chance of winning. Such an out of place comparison. Naniwa could have just proxy 2 gated, cannon rushed or 4 gated.
Actually, probe rush beats someone going 6 pool.
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On December 14 2011 19:43 zestzorb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:42 Kiarip wrote:On December 14 2011 19:41 Demonace34 wrote:On December 14 2011 19:35 Neelia wrote:On December 14 2011 19:14 Grettin wrote:On December 14 2011 19:12 PET wrote:
Ok. I'm curious.
What strategies are for GOM ... ok? Is it ok to do a 6 pool? Is it ok to take 4 drones and attack? We clearly see we can't probe rush ...
Soon we will see that the minimum game requirement is 30 minutes and we get 15 minutes to "evolve" like playing on Big Game Hunters 10 years ago.
Do you understand that you can't win with a strategy like probe rush in a competition like GSL. You might not win straight-up with 6pooling, but you can follow it up and win. That is the difference between these. Do you think you can win a GSL match with Nexus first in PvP? I'm quite certain that the chances to succeed with nexus first is about as high as the 7 probe rush. Does anyone think HerO should be punished? I don't think so. The difference is that a 7 probe rush is a failure 99.9% of the time, Nexus first against a player who doesn't scout can actually work and be a strategy. 12 drone rush actually can work on Steppes of War back in the day, the difference is that the player doing the drone rush is trying to win, the 7 probe rush is saying, "fuck this tournament, see ya later". probe rush against a player that doesn't micro can also win. No you can't
yes it can. If he looks away and doesn't attack move his drones it can win.
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On December 14 2011 19:43 hahaimhenry wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:39 hjop wrote:On December 14 2011 19:04 billz wrote:
If this was any other sport then lawyers would be consulted right now about lodging legal proceedings against Gom. Pretty scandalous behaviour from them - can you really imagine Manchester United getting banned from a tournament for fielding a weakened team in a game that doesn't matter? Great comparison, except a 6 probe rush has a ZERO % chance of winning at all, where as a WEAKENED Manchester United team always has a chance of winning AND they are giving lesser experienced players an opportunity to get some experience. I think you'd be better off comparing it to Manchester United not showing up at all, because then they'd have a ZERO % chance of winning. Such an out of place comparison. Naniwa could have just proxy 2 gated, cannon rushed or 4 gated. Actually, probe rush beats someone going 6 pool.
POW. it was a blind counter.
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Man this seems to be an entirely polarizing event from the comments. Seems pretty much everyone is never watching another GSL match again in total outrage or thinks GOM is good for standing up for themselves.
Personally, I think Naniwa was disrespectful and deserved some form of punishment. If he didn't like the format of the tourney, he didn't have to play in it. Also, I can totally see how probe rushing is "abusive" behavior to both nestea and the audience. We were all deprived of a great, high level ZvP and a match with some history behind it. I would have been disappointed with a proxy or something from Naniwa, but at least it would have been a legitimate game. Notice, he didn't even micro his probes in that rush... had his hands off the keyboard... he just boxed and a-moved pretty much. Completely disrespectful and deserved a mild punishment IMO.
Also keep in mind, this is for one season, not the end of the world.
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On December 14 2011 19:39 hjop wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:04 billz wrote:
If this was any other sport then lawyers would be consulted right now about lodging legal proceedings against Gom. Pretty scandalous behaviour from them - can you really imagine Manchester United getting banned from a tournament for fielding a weakened team in a game that doesn't matter? Great comparison, except a 6 probe rush has a ZERO % chance of winning at all, where as a WEAKENED Manchester United team always has a chance of winning AND they are giving lesser experienced players an opportunity to get some experience. I think you'd be better off comparing it to Manchester United not showing up at all, because then they'd have a ZERO % chance of winning. Such an out of place comparison. Naniwa could have just proxy 2 gated, cannon rushed or 4 gated.
GOMTV isn't criticizing the build order, but the attitude of Naniwa. He didn't take the match seriously. So when Manchester United doesn't take a match seriously by fielding their worst players, that's a good comparison 
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On December 14 2011 19:43 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:43 zestzorb wrote:On December 14 2011 19:42 Kiarip wrote:On December 14 2011 19:41 Demonace34 wrote:On December 14 2011 19:35 Neelia wrote:On December 14 2011 19:14 Grettin wrote:On December 14 2011 19:12 PET wrote:
Ok. I'm curious.
What strategies are for GOM ... ok? Is it ok to do a 6 pool? Is it ok to take 4 drones and attack? We clearly see we can't probe rush ...
Soon we will see that the minimum game requirement is 30 minutes and we get 15 minutes to "evolve" like playing on Big Game Hunters 10 years ago.
Do you understand that you can't win with a strategy like probe rush in a competition like GSL. You might not win straight-up with 6pooling, but you can follow it up and win. That is the difference between these. Do you think you can win a GSL match with Nexus first in PvP? I'm quite certain that the chances to succeed with nexus first is about as high as the 7 probe rush. Does anyone think HerO should be punished? I don't think so. The difference is that a 7 probe rush is a failure 99.9% of the time, Nexus first against a player who doesn't scout can actually work and be a strategy. 12 drone rush actually can work on Steppes of War back in the day, the difference is that the player doing the drone rush is trying to win, the 7 probe rush is saying, "fuck this tournament, see ya later". probe rush against a player that doesn't micro can also win. No you can't yes it can. If he looks away and doesn't attack move his drones it can win.
Is that a rational action expected from Nestea, or anyone at all?
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Great Decision by GOM. We expect sportsmanship like conduct in every sport. If SC2 is to be considered an esport then hell sportsmanship being required is a no brainer.
Every sport has penalties against unsportsmanlike conduct. Technical fouls in the NBA, yellow cards in football for diving, etc., There is no defense for Naniwa. It was unsportsmanlike. Looks like Naniwa needs to learn a few things about how to conduct himself when he is representing the foreigner community, Quantic, Startale, and his own country.
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On December 14 2011 19:44 epicdemic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:39 hjop wrote:On December 14 2011 19:04 billz wrote:
If this was any other sport then lawyers would be consulted right now about lodging legal proceedings against Gom. Pretty scandalous behaviour from them - can you really imagine Manchester United getting banned from a tournament for fielding a weakened team in a game that doesn't matter? Great comparison, except a 6 probe rush has a ZERO % chance of winning at all, where as a WEAKENED Manchester United team always has a chance of winning AND they are giving lesser experienced players an opportunity to get some experience. I think you'd be better off comparing it to Manchester United not showing up at all, because then they'd have a ZERO % chance of winning. Such an out of place comparison. Naniwa could have just proxy 2 gated, cannon rushed or 4 gated. GOMTV isn't criticizing the build order, but the attitude of Naniwa. He didn't take the match seriously. So when Manchester United doesn't take a match seriously by fielding their worst players, that's a good comparison
And what's the punishment for manchester united when they do that?
because in the NBA there's no punishment but I don't follow euro soccer
Great Decision by GOM. We expect sportsmanship like conduct in every sport. If SC2 is to be considered an esport then hell sportsmanship being required is a no brainer.
Every sport has penalties against unsportsmanlike conduct. Technical fouls in the NBA, yellow cards in football for diving, etc., There is no defense for Naniwa. It was unsportsmanlike. Looks like Naniwa needs to learn a few things about how to conduct himself when he is representing the foreigner community, Quantic, Startale, and his own country.
except in the NBA meaningless games are thrown all the time, and no one gets suspensions or technicals for them.
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On December 14 2011 19:44 epicdemic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:39 hjop wrote:On December 14 2011 19:04 billz wrote:
If this was any other sport then lawyers would be consulted right now about lodging legal proceedings against Gom. Pretty scandalous behaviour from them - can you really imagine Manchester United getting banned from a tournament for fielding a weakened team in a game that doesn't matter? Great comparison, except a 6 probe rush has a ZERO % chance of winning at all, where as a WEAKENED Manchester United team always has a chance of winning AND they are giving lesser experienced players an opportunity to get some experience. I think you'd be better off comparing it to Manchester United not showing up at all, because then they'd have a ZERO % chance of winning. Such an out of place comparison. Naniwa could have just proxy 2 gated, cannon rushed or 4 gated. GOMTV isn't criticizing the build order, but the attitude of Naniwa. He didn't take the match seriously. So when Manchester United doesn't take a match seriously by fielding their worst players, that's a good comparison
And they do that. And they wont get punished by FIFA or anything for it. They may just recieve a shitstorm from the opposing teams fans.
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Poor Naniwa. Not gonna watch the next GSL for this. I mean if they are going to be handing out such harsh punishments, they should be goddamn clear about it in the rules. Not something like this which just seems really petty.
You used to be a hero Chae..
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On December 14 2011 19:43 hahaimhenry wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:39 hjop wrote:On December 14 2011 19:04 billz wrote:
If this was any other sport then lawyers would be consulted right now about lodging legal proceedings against Gom. Pretty scandalous behaviour from them - can you really imagine Manchester United getting banned from a tournament for fielding a weakened team in a game that doesn't matter? Great comparison, except a 6 probe rush has a ZERO % chance of winning at all, where as a WEAKENED Manchester United team always has a chance of winning AND they are giving lesser experienced players an opportunity to get some experience. I think you'd be better off comparing it to Manchester United not showing up at all, because then they'd have a ZERO % chance of winning. Such an out of place comparison. Naniwa could have just proxy 2 gated, cannon rushed or 4 gated. Actually, probe rush beats someone going 6 pool.
no it doesn't lol. all you do is run your drones around till your pool finishes
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On December 14 2011 19:36 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:35 Demonace34 wrote:On December 14 2011 19:30 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:On December 14 2011 19:28 Demonace34 wrote:On December 14 2011 19:22 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:On December 14 2011 19:20 126Q;A1 wrote:On December 14 2011 18:57 CryingPoo wrote:
There is a rule about players' behaviours, whether Naniwa broke it or not is up to your discussion
Warning or disqualification
- 경기중에 과격한 행동으로 상대 게이머나 관중들에게 위협을 가할 때
- During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours I like how they make the rule so vague that it basically becomes a catch-all for any behavior they might not like (Same with the insulting "unfit to be a pro-gamer" nonsense). Or maybe there is a way you can contact GOM if you feel offended by a certain play/strat, etc - I hate 1/1/1 for example ;p Wouldn't Manner Mules be considered Disrespect and insulting to the other player? I guess I am happy that this will get out of the way. Since worker rushing is a great offense. The difference is that for the audience it is fun to watch people drop mules and /dance (pros outweigh the cons)...Naniwa didn't give the audience a game and should of just said he forfeited or something instead of blatantly throwing the match. Obviously the rule is there so they can easily get rid of actions that they don't want to see while still having a rule to stand behind. I'm not agreeing that what they did was right, but trying to find other things that are disrespectful isn't really meaningful for the discussion. The discussion is worker rushing against the rules and punishable, not what else is disrepectful and insulting that gom doesn't punish. I watched the game live and I was laughing the entire 1 minute 23 seconds or whatever it was one of the most entertaining games I have seen. It was so bad it was hilarious... Okay, well the point is that worker rushes stifle competition and isn't going to appeal to the majority of people wanting to watch competitive SCII matches. GOM doesn't want to look like a When Cheese Fails episode and decided to punish a player who intentionally threw a game. Like I said before, I didn't say I agree or disagree with it. I think GOM is at fault for their tournament to have games that have little to no meaning for the players, and I think Naniwa is at fault for throwing a broadcasted game intentionally instead of either A. Forfeiting or B. Playing it out/Doing a half assed cheese build. HerpDerp, I think bunker rushes arent fun to watch. Ban them GOM!!!
I said he should of done a half ass cheese build...bunker rushes can be fun to watch because there is drama in cheesy play...pulling 7 workers doesn't even equal cheesy play. It equals the bottom of bronze league bots who are trying to win the .0000001% chance games where someone is either afk or not paying attention. Honestly, I shouldn't of called it a when cheese fails episode...because cheese and all-ins have an exponentially higher chance at winning a game than a worker rush to throw a pointless game.
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On December 14 2011 19:43 hahaimhenry wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:39 hjop wrote:On December 14 2011 19:04 billz wrote:
If this was any other sport then lawyers would be consulted right now about lodging legal proceedings against Gom. Pretty scandalous behaviour from them - can you really imagine Manchester United getting banned from a tournament for fielding a weakened team in a game that doesn't matter? Great comparison, except a 6 probe rush has a ZERO % chance of winning at all, where as a WEAKENED Manchester United team always has a chance of winning AND they are giving lesser experienced players an opportunity to get some experience. I think you'd be better off comparing it to Manchester United not showing up at all, because then they'd have a ZERO % chance of winning. Such an out of place comparison. Naniwa could have just proxy 2 gated, cannon rushed or 4 gated. Actually, probe rush beats someone going 6 pool.
no it doesn't. you can run drones around forever until ling pops out or cancel pool and make 3 more drones.
Its not possible to win with probe rush, no matter what you do
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On December 14 2011 19:43 Weemoed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:42 zestzorb wrote:On December 14 2011 18:38 CryingPoo wrote:
Mr.Chae has announced that they made Code S seeds for a professional minded pro-gamer not for an amateur prize money hunter.
Very well put by Mr. Chae So, Stephano should not be in Code S as well then? He only cares about money (and I love him).
Stephano didn't do something like Naniwa did. If he did that, yes he shouldn't be in code S.
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So GOMTV is now deciding which strats are acceptable in their games, and which are so bad they disgrace the other player? I mean really, yes Naniwa threw that game, but it is still up to the players what they want to do. There are many other ways a player can intentionally loose a game whilst pushing the boundary of these punishments. What if Naniwa had done a cannon rush right under an ovie without walling of or having a cannon in his main? or just building 10 probes and doing whatever? where is the line with this?
That said I can´t say I am surprised either, they are trying to keep the GSL as clean as possible in every way, and successfully doing so.
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On December 14 2011 19:40 onemanlan wrote:
So manner buildings, mule drops/spam-scans, and dancing aren't considered offensive actions, yet probe rushing is? Asinine, those actions seem way more offensive to the other player, in my opinion, than what Nani did. This whole deal has me worried on the Korean outlook of things. I'm glad they're good at games, but this seems way out of proportion.
Good point, I remember a game in the team league when Losira was dancing his lings on the ramp and the proceeded to lose a won game. Thats pretty disrespectful to teammates and fans. (Was funny as hell tho )
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On December 14 2011 19:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:21 babo213 wrote:On December 14 2011 19:20 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On December 14 2011 19:17 Xax wrote:On December 14 2011 19:14 hahaimhenry wrote:On December 14 2011 19:12 Xax wrote:On December 14 2011 19:09 hahaimhenry wrote:On December 14 2011 19:08 anrimayu wrote:On December 14 2011 19:07 Zzoram wrote:On December 14 2011 19:04 billz wrote:
If this was any other sport then lawyers would be consulted right now about lodging legal proceedings against Gom. Pretty scandalous behaviour from them - can you really imagine Manchester United getting banned from a tournament for fielding a weakened team in a game that doesn't matter? A better comparison would be if their players just stood still and let the other team score infinite goals. More like a team just walks out of the stadium as soon as the game starts. Actually, in PROFESSIONAL SPORTS, useless games aren't even played. If they are, they don't use their starting lines, instead they play their rookies and developing roster. Get your facts right people, stop living in a box. Yup, and that's also getting punished: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/feb/18/wolves-fined-manchester-united They punished them for 25,000 euros? LOL, you know how much money football players make? you can't relate that to this situation because in this case, they're taking the COMPLETELY OUT OF THE TOURNAMENT. Well his Code S seed is the only thing they can take away from him. Do you think he would ever pay a fine if they would've fined him? If a soccer team would come to a match and only stand still it and let the opponent score goals at will, how would the fans react? If a team came to a match and just walked out of the stadium, how would the fans react? Good comparison "Pay fine or don't play code S - your choice". Yes. Yes I think he would. You know Quantic would pay it for him, so it wouldn't really punish him at all That really isnt the point of it. It's to show that what he did was wrong... Hell, make it a reduction from his Code S prize money this season equal to whatever they want the fine to be. Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:22 Ktk wrote:
ITT: foreigners QQing about other peoples' culture???
"Our standards the best! I can't believe they aren't to our standards!"
You don't have to follow them, but you don't have to watch GSL. Have some respect for the culture of millions of people, yeah?
Clearly people haven't been around long enough... If this were Kespa you wouldn't see naniwa in korea again.
I'm going to say this again, if a korean had done it you guys would be a lot more disappointed in the korean because of the standards he lives by and is put up to. Just because this guy had a terrible mentality doesn't excuse his terrible behavior. That's retarded. Why would I give a fuck whether Naniwa is Korean or not? What he did was wrong and SHOULD be punished, but the punishment is out of all proportion.
Oh, I guess we agree on most of this in that case.
I was just saying the community might've responded differently(read: more quietly) if this was a nonamer generic korean. Instead it's a foreigner star with a history.
But how can you absolutely say that the punishment is overblown? It's a cultural difference, which is a bigger deal precisely because GOM is based in ultra-strict Korea. Furthermore it's a budding sport that is trying to legitimize itself. E-sports doesn't need more bad reputation. Then we'd of course fall into the argument that people would view e-sports as stupid because "even corporations would bend themselves to penalize people for such trivial reasons!" and we'd simply disagree on how trivial that really is.
Damage control reaction, too. Game 9 of 10, everyone is still watching this game. It's a pretty bad image. Right?
Others/we are arguing because people from different places don't agree on how big of a deal this is. It's something we fundamentally disagree on because that's just how this is perceived in different places. The people who discussed and acted upon this were Korean. That's the result of it being in Korea. MLG may have responded differently because it is based in the USA, Dreamhack becuase it's in Sweden. I am not saying one culture is superior to another, it just takes precedence because though GSL is geared towards the world, it's run by Koreans, who could maybe, just maybe look at things differently from some others. The population seems split on this issue as well.
It's one tournament, if he's that good, won't he make it back anyways? It's not a life ban is it? One revoked seed? Though it is steep, maybe it'll move naniwa in the right direction. Doubt it personally.
edit:
reading some posts above mine. vague rules, yes. but it's a rather reasonable committee deciding this, so why are you mad? do you dislike the supreme court too? or general law that is to be intepreted?
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Canada1637 Posts
On December 14 2011 19:20 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:20 anrimayu wrote:On December 14 2011 19:17 perestain wrote:
too bad gom values entertainment over competition.
hurts the legitimacy of the sport abit imo.
but money comes first i guess. gom values entertainment over competition by making decisions to honor both competition and legitimacy of the sports, risking loss of viewership = money comes first today is opposite day~! They are taking about the sanctity of competition in the same breath as they announce seeds into Code S based on popularity. Not a fan.
I think this about sums it up, well said.
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On December 14 2011 19:45 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:43 hahaimhenry wrote:On December 14 2011 19:39 hjop wrote:On December 14 2011 19:04 billz wrote:
If this was any other sport then lawyers would be consulted right now about lodging legal proceedings against Gom. Pretty scandalous behaviour from them - can you really imagine Manchester United getting banned from a tournament for fielding a weakened team in a game that doesn't matter? Great comparison, except a 6 probe rush has a ZERO % chance of winning at all, where as a WEAKENED Manchester United team always has a chance of winning AND they are giving lesser experienced players an opportunity to get some experience. I think you'd be better off comparing it to Manchester United not showing up at all, because then they'd have a ZERO % chance of winning. Such an out of place comparison. Naniwa could have just proxy 2 gated, cannon rushed or 4 gated. Actually, probe rush beats someone going 6 pool. no it doesn't lol. all you do is run your drones around till your pool finishes
k, cause when you run around with your drones you can mine minerals. what kind of hack is it that you use?
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On December 14 2011 19:45 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:43 hahaimhenry wrote:On December 14 2011 19:39 hjop wrote:On December 14 2011 19:04 billz wrote:
If this was any other sport then lawyers would be consulted right now about lodging legal proceedings against Gom. Pretty scandalous behaviour from them - can you really imagine Manchester United getting banned from a tournament for fielding a weakened team in a game that doesn't matter? Great comparison, except a 6 probe rush has a ZERO % chance of winning at all, where as a WEAKENED Manchester United team always has a chance of winning AND they are giving lesser experienced players an opportunity to get some experience. I think you'd be better off comparing it to Manchester United not showing up at all, because then they'd have a ZERO % chance of winning. Such an out of place comparison. Naniwa could have just proxy 2 gated, cannon rushed or 4 gated. Actually, probe rush beats someone going 6 pool. no it doesn't lol. all you do is run your drones around till your pool finishes
i'm glad you responded to this. unbelievable.
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EPT
