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Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. |
On December 14 2011 02:30 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 02:19 kafkaesque wrote:On December 14 2011 02:18 aebriol wrote:On December 14 2011 02:16 kafkaesque wrote:
Oh Jesus, how is this still going on?
Why do you guys care so much about such an inane thing?
Do you feel cheated out of 10 minutes of Starcraft?
Give that guy a fucking break... a lot of people gave him a break after MLG, which in my eyes wasn't really deserved, no reason to let him get away with acting like an idiot all the time. You punish bad behavior because you don't want everyone to act like that. It's that simple. I would expect him to get some sort of punishment, and whatever it is, I agree with it. Again, how exactly does it bother you? I what way does he hurt anyone by throwing away a completely meaningless game? Since this comment is particularly dumb I will respond. It was a grudge match. Nestea wanted revenge and Naniwa had taunted him beforehand. Nestea loses. Many fans wanted to see the grudge match. Many fans lose. It is also a matter of respect. It is a type of privilege to play on that stage. You show respect to it by playing your matches and at least trying to some extent. Is it really that much to ask that you show by play using a standard strategy (thus not giving away any strategical advantage in the futuregames) for some twenty minutes? Naniwa is only getting what he is asking for. People dislike him for a reason. It's not like they just randomly chose to bully him.
Not to mention GOMTV has payed him to play the round robin.
On December 14 2011 02:21 PassiveAce wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:04 Lord_J wrote:
I don't think it was how a professional ought to conduct himself, but I'd be lying if I said I was particularly bothered by it. My feelings exactly.
Yea, this is how I feel. I don't think he should be punished or anything
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Quantic has received ten times the publicity with Naniwa's probe rush than they would have had he played a standard game.
I think they should be pleased.
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On December 14 2011 02:32 Rassefrasse wrote:I really do too. I would love to have their take on this incident. In my opinion Naniwa disrespected sports in general. You never see a professional soccer-team ignore the ball during a soccer match just because they cannot pass the group stage. It's a sportmans duty to play a game if there are resources being spent toward casting the game.
Seriously, why is it after an incident, we have all these 1-5 post nubs posting on TL?
Look, NFL team towards end of the seasons generally send out their bench players for majority of the games, if they don't stand to win anything, (move up in playoff spot, or what not).
I don't see how this is any more different than Naniwa probe rushing...
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On December 14 2011 02:27 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 02:23 aebriol wrote:On December 14 2011 02:22 wei2coolman wrote:On December 14 2011 02:22 aebriol wrote:On December 14 2011 02:20 wei2coolman wrote:On December 14 2011 02:17 aebriol wrote:On December 14 2011 02:15 wei2coolman wrote:On December 14 2011 02:13 mordk wrote:On December 14 2011 02:11 wei2coolman wrote:
I wonder if there would've been such a shitstorm if Naniwa went for a double gate proxy?
It's okay to cheese, but not proberush? Completely irrelevant. Double-gate proxy can win games. You do it when you think you can win with it. 7 Probe rush loses to anything lol, it's not playing the game. And yes, it's certainly OK to cheese. You can totally win with a 7 probe rush.... It just takes insane micro skills. Again, what league are you in? And yes, I am sure you can win ... if you are master league against gold or bronze or some shit, but as a master league zerg - no you cannot win it is straight up impossible. Regardless of how insane your micro skills are - if the opponent isn't a moron with no skills ... which NesTea isn't. There was 0% chance he could win that game regardless of what NesTea did. That is what people are annoyed about. theoretically a bot can out micro a human, I don't see why a human can't outmicro another human. in pure theory, a 7 probe rush could totally work. Theoretically I could win the lottery tomorrow and win 150 million. That is about the same chance as Naniwa winning that game ... probably higher, if you don't include NesTea having a sudden illness leaving him unable to control his units ... Is it the same chances as Naniwa winning with a double gate? Nah double proxy gate I'd expect have a 2-5% chance of winning ... either way, I am done arguing with you, because I cannot combat pure stupidity on this level by reasoned arguments. So by increasing his chances of winning from .01% to a 2-5% he's in the all-clear? lol, the hypocrisy.
By actually attempting to win no matter how stupid the strategy, he would be. Everyone would know he didn't play his best, but he would have tried.
Also, it's not 0.01%, it's not even 0.000001%, so it's more like giving himself more than 10 million times the chance of winning ... since it's going from 0 in 10 000 games, to 1 in 20.
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On December 14 2011 02:33 Chessz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 02:30 Squeegy wrote:On December 14 2011 02:19 kafkaesque wrote:On December 14 2011 02:18 aebriol wrote:On December 14 2011 02:16 kafkaesque wrote:
Oh Jesus, how is this still going on?
Why do you guys care so much about such an inane thing?
Do you feel cheated out of 10 minutes of Starcraft?
Give that guy a fucking break... a lot of people gave him a break after MLG, which in my eyes wasn't really deserved, no reason to let him get away with acting like an idiot all the time. You punish bad behavior because you don't want everyone to act like that. It's that simple. I would expect him to get some sort of punishment, and whatever it is, I agree with it. Again, how exactly does it bother you? I what way does he hurt anyone by throwing away a completely meaningless game? Since this comment is particularly dumb I will respond. It was a grudge match. Nestea wanted revenge and Naniwa had taunted him beforehand. Nestea loses. Many fans wanted to see the grudge match. Many fans lose. It is also a matter of respect. It is a type of privilege to play on that stage. You show respect to it by playing your matches and at least trying to some extent. Is it really that much to ask that you show by play using a standard strategy (thus not giving away any strategical advantage in the futuregames) for some twenty minutes? Naniwa is only getting what he is asking for. People dislike him for a reason. It's not like they just randomly chose to bully him. Not to mention GOMTV has payed him to play the round robin.
Hahahaha the irony, maybe you should also have a giant shit storm for Naniwa's other 3 games, in which he was CHEESED the fuck out by everyone else. The second he tries to do a 7probe rush, there's a giant shit storm!? lolololol, maybe the contract should say "you're being paid to play MACRO games, or games LONGER than 7 minutes". Naniwa obviously on tilt, maybe next time he'll just 4gate rather than 7 probe rush, and everyone will be happy... lol.
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On December 14 2011 02:20 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 02:17 aebriol wrote:On December 14 2011 02:15 wei2coolman wrote:On December 14 2011 02:13 mordk wrote:On December 14 2011 02:11 wei2coolman wrote:
I wonder if there would've been such a shitstorm if Naniwa went for a double gate proxy?
It's okay to cheese, but not proberush? Completely irrelevant. Double-gate proxy can win games. You do it when you think you can win with it. 7 Probe rush loses to anything lol, it's not playing the game. And yes, it's certainly OK to cheese. You can totally win with a 7 probe rush.... It just takes insane micro skills. Again, what league are you in? And yes, I am sure you can win ... if you are master league against gold or bronze or some shit, but as a master league zerg - no you cannot win it is straight up impossible. Regardless of how insane your micro skills are - if the opponent isn't a moron with no skills ... which NesTea isn't. There was 0% chance he could win that game regardless of what NesTea did. That is what people are annoyed about. theoretically a bot can out micro a human, I don't see why a human can't outmicro another human. in pure theory, a 7 probe rush could totally work.
does that theory matter, at all? if it doesn't have a real world application, why even argue it.
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On December 14 2011 02:34 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 02:32 Rassefrasse wrote:On December 14 2011 02:17 Poisonblack wrote:
I feel sorry for Quantic... lol I really do too. I would love to have their take on this incident. In my opinion Naniwa disrespected sports in general. You never see a professional soccer-team ignore the ball during a soccer match just because they cannot pass the group stage. It's a sportmans duty to play a game if there are resources being spent toward casting the game. Seriously, why is it after an incident, we have all these 1-5 post nubs posting on TL? Look, NFL team towards end of the seasons generally send out their bench players for majority of the games, if they don't stand to win anything, (move up in playoff spot, or what not). I don't see how this is any more different than Naniwa probe rushing...
This is a poor analogy because the backups that NFL teams put in actually try their hearts out and 'standard' gameplay resumes (driving for touchdowns). And those moments are actually crucial for rookies trying to prove themselves (in the preseason) or repositioning players on the depth chart, executing certain plays for film study, etc..
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On December 14 2011 02:09 MiraMax wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:54 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:52 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:48 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:47 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:40 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:38 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:34 natebreen wrote:On December 14 2011 01:33 Charger wrote:On December 14 2011 01:29 natebreen wrote:
[quote]
Quite disingenuous to say when said teams prepare all year for a short season that is the only competition they will have.
There are tens if not hundreds of sc2 tournaments/year.
Your analogy really doesn't play out.
In fact, if you look at it on the scale of individual games, then teams do often pull their best players, sub out stars, and rest themselves if they're extremely behind or extremely ahead. 1. A player plays in what, around 10-15 events on average per year? Seems pretty comparable to me. 2. It's clear you tried to argue this point without watching or knowing much about football. I'm going to refrain from entering into some mud slinging festivities with you, as I'd prefer not to be banned. Suffice it to say that you're saying nothing while attempting to say everything. I typed out a paragraph of exactly how I feel from the perspective of an athlete for most of my life and as a spectator of many professional sports now. You said my analogy somehow doesn't play out to which I replied I think it does. Please explain how I'm 'saying nothing while attempting to say everything'? We obviously disagree. Instead of providing further reasons for why you disagree, you decided to assert a complete superiority on the subject and insult me simultaneously. Somehow you're confused why I'm not interested in discussing it with you further? Here, my turn: 1) Your analogy still doesn't work. 2) You're awful at debate, stick to being a washed up never-has-been athlete and watching professional sports. So you got your feelings hurt on the internet and can't continue having a debate about something? I can only assume your ignorance on the subject of professional sports by what you have said here since I don't know anything about you beyond that. Ah, so you made an overarching statement about someone with no knowledge of their person or history? Sounds like you're the ignorant one here sir. No, please listen and then comprehend. This is the internet. Yes? The facts I have are whatever you choose to give me with the content you post. Based solely on this information I have available, I came to the conclusion you know very little about professional sports. If you typed a well done 3000 word essay about professional sports I could just as likely assume you know something about professional sports. Ah, so instead of pointing out how what I said was incorrect (that professional teams pull some of their better players in situations where there is risk of injury/no reward or the score is insanely high in comparison to the other team's) you simply stated that I know nothing about professional sports. You're right, that makes total sense. Then allow me to point out your flaws  It's true that in team sports sometimes better players are kept on the bench especially when the game is not important. It is also true that teams get routinely criticised for this. Nonetheless everybody acknowledges that there are good REASONS for doing it anyway. For instance to give practice time to younger players or to protect stars from injuries. None of these reasons apply in this case which already suffices to invalidate your point. The "worst" you see in professional sports is that players treat unimportant games like practice games, which usually means that the action is less intense. What you don't usually see is one team intentionally throwing the game. And in any and all cases this behaviour is strongly frowned upon. What people dislike here is exactly that: Naniwa intentionally threw the game out of frustration and he did this openly for anybody to see. Now you can certainly say: "At least he wasn't a hypocrite", but sometimes merely not being a hypocrite is not enough by a long shot.
I agree 100%. If Nani just forefits the game or does a half-hearted 4gate it's a different story. Doing this proberush - without even microing the probes - just makes it clear for everybody that he doesn't give a sh't. Like said many times before, it's just a big "**ck you" to the fans, players and everyone involved which just is unprofessional.
Doing a 4 gate is the equivalent of a team keeping their stars on the bench. Doing a probe rush is the equivalent of the team shooting at their own goal. Of course people will be upset and in my eyes there is just no denying that Naniwas behaviour was totally unprofessional. Wether you think it's a big deal is a different question though.
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On December 14 2011 02:17 Poisonblack wrote:
I feel sorry for Quantic... lol
They took in a player that makes pornstars cry, screams how he wants to rape people, 95% of his entire act is based on trolling people and you think they are gonna worry about this
LOL
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On December 14 2011 02:34 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 02:32 Rassefrasse wrote:On December 14 2011 02:17 Poisonblack wrote:
I feel sorry for Quantic... lol I really do too. I would love to have their take on this incident. In my opinion Naniwa disrespected sports in general. You never see a professional soccer-team ignore the ball during a soccer match just because they cannot pass the group stage. It's a sportmans duty to play a game if there are resources being spent toward casting the game. Seriously, why is it after an incident, we have all these 1-5 post nubs posting on TL? Look, NFL team towards end of the seasons generally send out their bench players for majority of the games, if they don't stand to win anything, (move up in playoff spot, or what not). I don't see how this is any more different than Naniwa probe rushing...
Actually, the nfl teams that aren't in the playoffs will often continue to field their whole starting lineup. Its the teams that make it to the playoffs that field backups in order to avoid injury before the big games begin. Naniwa has no excuses other than he just didn't want to play.
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On December 14 2011 02:36 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 02:33 Chessz wrote:On December 14 2011 02:30 Squeegy wrote:On December 14 2011 02:19 kafkaesque wrote:On December 14 2011 02:18 aebriol wrote:On December 14 2011 02:16 kafkaesque wrote:
Oh Jesus, how is this still going on?
Why do you guys care so much about such an inane thing?
Do you feel cheated out of 10 minutes of Starcraft?
Give that guy a fucking break... a lot of people gave him a break after MLG, which in my eyes wasn't really deserved, no reason to let him get away with acting like an idiot all the time. You punish bad behavior because you don't want everyone to act like that. It's that simple. I would expect him to get some sort of punishment, and whatever it is, I agree with it. Again, how exactly does it bother you? I what way does he hurt anyone by throwing away a completely meaningless game? Since this comment is particularly dumb I will respond. It was a grudge match. Nestea wanted revenge and Naniwa had taunted him beforehand. Nestea loses. Many fans wanted to see the grudge match. Many fans lose. It is also a matter of respect. It is a type of privilege to play on that stage. You show respect to it by playing your matches and at least trying to some extent. Is it really that much to ask that you show by play using a standard strategy (thus not giving away any strategical advantage in the futuregames) for some twenty minutes? Naniwa is only getting what he is asking for. People dislike him for a reason. It's not like they just randomly chose to bully him. Not to mention GOMTV has payed him to play the round robin. Hahahaha the irony, maybe you should also have a giant shit storm for Naniwa's other 3 games, in which he was CHEESED the fuck out by everyone else. The second he tries to do a 7probe rush, there's a giant shit storm!? lolololol, maybe the contract should say "you're being paid to play MACRO games, or games LONGER than 7 minutes". Naniwa obviously on tilt, maybe next time he'll just 4gate rather than 7 probe rush, and everyone will be happy... lol.
Man stop this madness you're speaking of. Nani was cheesed because the players he played knew he was VULNERABLE to cheese. They did it to WIN. Nani wasn't expecting to win, he was expecting to end the game in 20 seconds. He might as well just have hit F10 and left. There's NOTHING in common between cheesing a player and what nani did. Absolutely zero things in common.
I wouldn't have a problem if he had gone to GOM and said: "Hey dudes, this tournament system sucks! I'm not playing this shit!" offscreen and then just forfeited. That would have been fine. The way he acted is just.... ridiculous! It's like really lacking common sense.
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On December 14 2011 02:34 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 02:27 wei2coolman wrote:On December 14 2011 02:23 aebriol wrote:On December 14 2011 02:22 wei2coolman wrote:On December 14 2011 02:22 aebriol wrote:On December 14 2011 02:20 wei2coolman wrote:On December 14 2011 02:17 aebriol wrote:On December 14 2011 02:15 wei2coolman wrote:On December 14 2011 02:13 mordk wrote:On December 14 2011 02:11 wei2coolman wrote:
I wonder if there would've been such a shitstorm if Naniwa went for a double gate proxy?
It's okay to cheese, but not proberush? Completely irrelevant. Double-gate proxy can win games. You do it when you think you can win with it. 7 Probe rush loses to anything lol, it's not playing the game. And yes, it's certainly OK to cheese. You can totally win with a 7 probe rush.... It just takes insane micro skills. Again, what league are you in? And yes, I am sure you can win ... if you are master league against gold or bronze or some shit, but as a master league zerg - no you cannot win it is straight up impossible. Regardless of how insane your micro skills are - if the opponent isn't a moron with no skills ... which NesTea isn't. There was 0% chance he could win that game regardless of what NesTea did. That is what people are annoyed about. theoretically a bot can out micro a human, I don't see why a human can't outmicro another human. in pure theory, a 7 probe rush could totally work. Theoretically I could win the lottery tomorrow and win 150 million. That is about the same chance as Naniwa winning that game ... probably higher, if you don't include NesTea having a sudden illness leaving him unable to control his units ... Is it the same chances as Naniwa winning with a double gate? Nah double proxy gate I'd expect have a 2-5% chance of winning ... either way, I am done arguing with you, because I cannot combat pure stupidity on this level by reasoned arguments. So by increasing his chances of winning from .01% to a 2-5% he's in the all-clear? lol, the hypocrisy. By actually attempting to win no matter how stupid the strategy, he would be. Everyone would know he didn't play his best, but he would have tried. Also, it's not 0.01%, it's not even 0.000001%, so it's more like giving himself more than 10 million times the chance of winning ... since it's going from 0 in 10 000 games, to 1 in 20.
The intent is still the same, no matter how the math works out. Seriously, in a bo1, cheesing is pretty much an intent of "I don't really want to play this game, lets get this out of the way." Plus no one expects the 7 probe rush!
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On December 14 2011 02:36 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 02:33 Chessz wrote:On December 14 2011 02:30 Squeegy wrote:On December 14 2011 02:19 kafkaesque wrote:On December 14 2011 02:18 aebriol wrote:On December 14 2011 02:16 kafkaesque wrote:
Oh Jesus, how is this still going on?
Why do you guys care so much about such an inane thing?
Do you feel cheated out of 10 minutes of Starcraft?
Give that guy a fucking break... a lot of people gave him a break after MLG, which in my eyes wasn't really deserved, no reason to let him get away with acting like an idiot all the time. You punish bad behavior because you don't want everyone to act like that. It's that simple. I would expect him to get some sort of punishment, and whatever it is, I agree with it. Again, how exactly does it bother you? I what way does he hurt anyone by throwing away a completely meaningless game? Since this comment is particularly dumb I will respond. It was a grudge match. Nestea wanted revenge and Naniwa had taunted him beforehand. Nestea loses. Many fans wanted to see the grudge match. Many fans lose. It is also a matter of respect. It is a type of privilege to play on that stage. You show respect to it by playing your matches and at least trying to some extent. Is it really that much to ask that you show by play using a standard strategy (thus not giving away any strategical advantage in the futuregames) for some twenty minutes? Naniwa is only getting what he is asking for. People dislike him for a reason. It's not like they just randomly chose to bully him. Not to mention GOMTV has payed him to play the round robin. Hahahaha the irony, maybe you should also have a giant shit storm for Naniwa's other 3 games, in which he was CHEESED the fuck out by everyone else. The second he tries to do a 7probe rush, there's a giant shit storm!? lolololol, maybe the contract should say "you're being paid to play MACRO games, or games LONGER than 7 minutes". Naniwa obviously on tilt, maybe next time he'll just 4gate rather than 7 probe rush, and everyone will be happy... lol.
Not exaclty the same. He didn't cheese. He elaborately ragequitted the tournament. You seem to have lost the point.
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On December 14 2011 02:34 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 02:32 Rassefrasse wrote:On December 14 2011 02:17 Poisonblack wrote:
I feel sorry for Quantic... lol I really do too. I would love to have their take on this incident. In my opinion Naniwa disrespected sports in general. You never see a professional soccer-team ignore the ball during a soccer match just because they cannot pass the group stage. It's a sportmans duty to play a game if there are resources being spent toward casting the game. Seriously, why is it after an incident, we have all these 1-5 post nubs posting on TL? Look, NFL team towards end of the seasons generally send out their bench players for majority of the games, if they don't stand to win anything, (move up in playoff spot, or what not). I don't see how this is any more different than Naniwa probe rushing...
I disagree. There's a difference between letting your b-team/rookies play a game and not playing a game at all. I don't have a problem if a BW team (or sc2 in GTSL) sends out their inexperienced players for a match to get some practice. I DO have a problem if Flash enters a game and then leaves it immediately - which is effectively what Naniwa did. People paid to see this. Guy can say he didn't think he'd give a good game and that'd be bad for his fans all he likes, he's acting like a little kid and people are censuring him for it.
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On December 14 2011 02:39 ArcticRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 02:36 wei2coolman wrote:On December 14 2011 02:33 Chessz wrote:On December 14 2011 02:30 Squeegy wrote:On December 14 2011 02:19 kafkaesque wrote:On December 14 2011 02:18 aebriol wrote:On December 14 2011 02:16 kafkaesque wrote:
Oh Jesus, how is this still going on?
Why do you guys care so much about such an inane thing?
Do you feel cheated out of 10 minutes of Starcraft?
Give that guy a fucking break... a lot of people gave him a break after MLG, which in my eyes wasn't really deserved, no reason to let him get away with acting like an idiot all the time. You punish bad behavior because you don't want everyone to act like that. It's that simple. I would expect him to get some sort of punishment, and whatever it is, I agree with it. Again, how exactly does it bother you? I what way does he hurt anyone by throwing away a completely meaningless game? Since this comment is particularly dumb I will respond. It was a grudge match. Nestea wanted revenge and Naniwa had taunted him beforehand. Nestea loses. Many fans wanted to see the grudge match. Many fans lose. It is also a matter of respect. It is a type of privilege to play on that stage. You show respect to it by playing your matches and at least trying to some extent. Is it really that much to ask that you show by play using a standard strategy (thus not giving away any strategical advantage in the futuregames) for some twenty minutes? Naniwa is only getting what he is asking for. People dislike him for a reason. It's not like they just randomly chose to bully him. Not to mention GOMTV has payed him to play the round robin. Hahahaha the irony, maybe you should also have a giant shit storm for Naniwa's other 3 games, in which he was CHEESED the fuck out by everyone else. The second he tries to do a 7probe rush, there's a giant shit storm!? lolololol, maybe the contract should say "you're being paid to play MACRO games, or games LONGER than 7 minutes". Naniwa obviously on tilt, maybe next time he'll just 4gate rather than 7 probe rush, and everyone will be happy... lol. Not exaclty the same. He didn't cheese. He elaborately ragequitted the tournament. You seem to have lost the point.
How does one quit a tournament you are already out of?
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On December 14 2011 02:02 zidaneshead wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 01:57 Giriath wrote:On December 14 2011 01:48 zidaneshead wrote:On December 14 2011 01:41 Giriath wrote:On December 14 2011 01:36 zidaneshead wrote:On December 14 2011 01:32 kaluzak wrote:
Not unprofessional in the least. Koreans gonna hate.
Think of it this way, when your favorite NFL team (you know, the one that you paid thousands of dollars for season tickets to) has a rough first half, so rough that they are mathematically OUT of contention for any post-season play, they start making decisions that have HUGE implications for other teams that year, but are in their best interests moving forward. So, for instance, maybe they'll sit their star DE or MLB, or send their QB to get surgery earlier so he's well-rested for next year. These are the considerations and decisions PROFESSIONAL teams have to make. Even more, once a team has sewn up a playoff seed, or first round bye, they might only play competitively for the first quarter, and then sit everybody. Again, this is nothing new, it is the height of professionalism, and it can have wide-ranging implications on the other teams fighting for a spot, and yet, we're all ok with it (or at least, the majority of mainstream America is ok with, even encourages, it).
Here, in eSports however, apparently a professional cannot make the same decision? Actually, cannot even make a more benign decision where NO ONE gets hurt. When a NFL team chooses to sit its starters, there are huge negative externalities in the league, but when Naniwa probe rushed, it effected no one's chances. I would have much preferred he just decline to play, but a probe rush is the next best thing i guess. He doesn't OWE you anything. Stop acting like you're all entitled to get the best games from your favorite players all the time; you're not.
If they wanted to insta-gg (barring any tournament rules to the contrary), that's their prerogative. The court of public opinion would quickly decide how acceptable those actions were (think Pujols), but saying he's not "pro" or should be "punished/sanctioned" is just ridiculous. The game should have been optional to begin with; if both players wanted to play it out for pride, then let them, if either one was too upset by their prior performances to play another--useless--match, then they should have had the option to skip it.
I guess if your definition of professionalism means giving your best every game you play, no matter what, then Naniwa acted "unprofessionally." I just happen to disagree with that definition. The ramifications are totally different. If I don't let you get surgery on your busted knee, you could end up never walking again. If I play you in a game that has no meaning, an injury could force you to miss the next 10 games or even end your career. If I'm in 1st place and play the shit out of you, you might be too tired in the playoffs or as mentioned could suffer an unexpected injury. If I force you to play that extra Starcraft 2 match you could get really tired and sad....wait what? You make your fans see you play a bad game, since you're unmotivated to play. Can you see farther than your nose and get that into your head already? Or maybe you can't, and you would need to see a whole lot more of this format before you'd get tired of all the half-assery by all of the players who have lost but are forced to continue playing, and the inevitable match-fixing that would occur when a teammate or friend that has no chance of winning plays one that does. You mad bro? And I've already stated that my problem isn't so much with Naniwa as it is a large portion of the community (and other players) who think it's OK to half-ass games or throw matches in the finals of an online tournament when people have dedicated their time and money to watching them play. So yes, I can see farther than my nose, thanks. Just because a tournament is structured a certain way doesn't mean Naniwa as a professional needs to sink himself down, especially when that tournament is offering money to him regardless of his result. GOM is paying him anyway because they expect good games out of him regardless of whether he made it or not, because it boosts their ratings. It's important to the Koreans who train themselves way harder than the average foreigner, who are struggling their asses off to promote SC2 in a country that still clings to BW, in the hope that they can make their game just as successful. To do that, they need to earn fans however they can, so yes, they're very serious about entertaining the fans, as any professional sport would be that wants to bring more money in. He's unmotivated to play? Well then it's up to him to GET FUCKING MOTIVATED, especially when he's being paid money to play a fucking video game for a living. It's us as fans that make that possible, so he and alot of the other players who are actually condoning this need to have a little respect for his sponsors, his employers, and his audience. So while my opinion is based on overall perception and a long-term view of where e-sports should be heading, you choose to box this event within the context of a single tournament and one meaningless game. Who's the one who can't see past his nose? No, you're mad, and at NaNiWa specifically, as is very evident by your numerous irate posts about this incident. Koreans are not any more motivated to play in these situations than he is, they are just more self-conscious about their PR and choose to play half-assed games. You're deluding yourself thinking otherwise. Gee, I wonder why they're more self-conscious about public perception? If more players aren't, than I'll say good luck trying to make e-sports mainstream. Why shouldn't Naniwa, as a representative of SC2, e-sports, his team, his sponsors, care about the same? Once again, you seem to not be able to see past your nose. And just because my view on things doesn't sync with yours or Naniwa's doesn't mean I'm mad. I have a strong opinion about it, and I stated it, nothing more.
The difference between our opinions is that you think other players care to play their best to win in a situation like this. I don't. And I think deciding to play half-assed and not make an effort to have GOM change the format is bad for all parties.
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On December 14 2011 02:38 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 02:34 aebriol wrote:On December 14 2011 02:27 wei2coolman wrote:On December 14 2011 02:23 aebriol wrote:On December 14 2011 02:22 wei2coolman wrote:On December 14 2011 02:22 aebriol wrote:On December 14 2011 02:20 wei2coolman wrote:On December 14 2011 02:17 aebriol wrote:On December 14 2011 02:15 wei2coolman wrote:On December 14 2011 02:13 mordk wrote:
[quote]
Completely irrelevant. Double-gate proxy can win games. You do it when you think you can win with it. 7 Probe rush loses to anything lol, it's not playing the game.
And yes, it's certainly OK to cheese. You can totally win with a 7 probe rush.... It just takes insane micro skills. Again, what league are you in? And yes, I am sure you can win ... if you are master league against gold or bronze or some shit, but as a master league zerg - no you cannot win it is straight up impossible. Regardless of how insane your micro skills are - if the opponent isn't a moron with no skills ... which NesTea isn't. There was 0% chance he could win that game regardless of what NesTea did. That is what people are annoyed about. theoretically a bot can out micro a human, I don't see why a human can't outmicro another human. in pure theory, a 7 probe rush could totally work. Theoretically I could win the lottery tomorrow and win 150 million. That is about the same chance as Naniwa winning that game ... probably higher, if you don't include NesTea having a sudden illness leaving him unable to control his units ... Is it the same chances as Naniwa winning with a double gate? Nah double proxy gate I'd expect have a 2-5% chance of winning ... either way, I am done arguing with you, because I cannot combat pure stupidity on this level by reasoned arguments. So by increasing his chances of winning from .01% to a 2-5% he's in the all-clear? lol, the hypocrisy. By actually attempting to win no matter how stupid the strategy, he would be. Everyone would know he didn't play his best, but he would have tried. Also, it's not 0.01%, it's not even 0.000001%, so it's more like giving himself more than 10 million times the chance of winning ... since it's going from 0 in 10 000 games, to 1 in 20. The intent is still the same, no matter how the math works out. Seriously, in a bo1, cheesing is pretty much an intent of "I don't really want to play this game, lets get this out of the way." Plus no one expects the 7 probe rush!
If the key to winning starcraft was only to do the unexpected, then everyone would do funday monday as a serious strategy...
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On December 14 2011 02:40 grobo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 02:39 ArcticRaven wrote:On December 14 2011 02:36 wei2coolman wrote:On December 14 2011 02:33 Chessz wrote:On December 14 2011 02:30 Squeegy wrote:On December 14 2011 02:19 kafkaesque wrote:On December 14 2011 02:18 aebriol wrote:On December 14 2011 02:16 kafkaesque wrote:
Oh Jesus, how is this still going on?
Why do you guys care so much about such an inane thing?
Do you feel cheated out of 10 minutes of Starcraft?
Give that guy a fucking break... a lot of people gave him a break after MLG, which in my eyes wasn't really deserved, no reason to let him get away with acting like an idiot all the time. You punish bad behavior because you don't want everyone to act like that. It's that simple. I would expect him to get some sort of punishment, and whatever it is, I agree with it. Again, how exactly does it bother you? I what way does he hurt anyone by throwing away a completely meaningless game? Since this comment is particularly dumb I will respond. It was a grudge match. Nestea wanted revenge and Naniwa had taunted him beforehand. Nestea loses. Many fans wanted to see the grudge match. Many fans lose. It is also a matter of respect. It is a type of privilege to play on that stage. You show respect to it by playing your matches and at least trying to some extent. Is it really that much to ask that you show by play using a standard strategy (thus not giving away any strategical advantage in the futuregames) for some twenty minutes? Naniwa is only getting what he is asking for. People dislike him for a reason. It's not like they just randomly chose to bully him. Not to mention GOMTV has payed him to play the round robin. Hahahaha the irony, maybe you should also have a giant shit storm for Naniwa's other 3 games, in which he was CHEESED the fuck out by everyone else. The second he tries to do a 7probe rush, there's a giant shit storm!? lolololol, maybe the contract should say "you're being paid to play MACRO games, or games LONGER than 7 minutes". Naniwa obviously on tilt, maybe next time he'll just 4gate rather than 7 probe rush, and everyone will be happy... lol. Not exaclty the same. He didn't cheese. He elaborately ragequitted the tournament. You seem to have lost the point. How does one quit a tournament you are already out of?
point. game. match.
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On December 14 2011 02:34 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 02:27 wei2coolman wrote:On December 14 2011 02:23 aebriol wrote:On December 14 2011 02:22 wei2coolman wrote:On December 14 2011 02:22 aebriol wrote:On December 14 2011 02:20 wei2coolman wrote:On December 14 2011 02:17 aebriol wrote:On December 14 2011 02:15 wei2coolman wrote:On December 14 2011 02:13 mordk wrote:On December 14 2011 02:11 wei2coolman wrote:
I wonder if there would've been such a shitstorm if Naniwa went for a double gate proxy?
It's okay to cheese, but not proberush? Completely irrelevant. Double-gate proxy can win games. You do it when you think you can win with it. 7 Probe rush loses to anything lol, it's not playing the game. And yes, it's certainly OK to cheese. You can totally win with a 7 probe rush.... It just takes insane micro skills. Again, what league are you in? And yes, I am sure you can win ... if you are master league against gold or bronze or some shit, but as a master league zerg - no you cannot win it is straight up impossible. Regardless of how insane your micro skills are - if the opponent isn't a moron with no skills ... which NesTea isn't. There was 0% chance he could win that game regardless of what NesTea did. That is what people are annoyed about. theoretically a bot can out micro a human, I don't see why a human can't outmicro another human. in pure theory, a 7 probe rush could totally work. Theoretically I could win the lottery tomorrow and win 150 million. That is about the same chance as Naniwa winning that game ... probably higher, if you don't include NesTea having a sudden illness leaving him unable to control his units ... Is it the same chances as Naniwa winning with a double gate? Nah double proxy gate I'd expect have a 2-5% chance of winning ... either way, I am done arguing with you, because I cannot combat pure stupidity on this level by reasoned arguments. So by increasing his chances of winning from .01% to a 2-5% he's in the all-clear? lol, the hypocrisy. By actually attempting to win no matter how stupid the strategy, he would be. Everyone would know he didn't play his best, but he would have tried. Also, it's not 0.01%, it's not even 0.000001%, so it's more like giving himself more than 10 million times the chance of winning ... since it's going from 0 in 10 000 games, to 1 in 20.
So theres NO way that nestea was going to do a 6pool? 0%? I am pretty sure that a 6pool is a legitimate strategy and probe rushing can work against it
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On December 14 2011 02:40 grobo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 02:39 ArcticRaven wrote:On December 14 2011 02:36 wei2coolman wrote:On December 14 2011 02:33 Chessz wrote:On December 14 2011 02:30 Squeegy wrote:On December 14 2011 02:19 kafkaesque wrote:On December 14 2011 02:18 aebriol wrote:On December 14 2011 02:16 kafkaesque wrote:
Oh Jesus, how is this still going on?
Why do you guys care so much about such an inane thing?
Do you feel cheated out of 10 minutes of Starcraft?
Give that guy a fucking break... a lot of people gave him a break after MLG, which in my eyes wasn't really deserved, no reason to let him get away with acting like an idiot all the time. You punish bad behavior because you don't want everyone to act like that. It's that simple. I would expect him to get some sort of punishment, and whatever it is, I agree with it. Again, how exactly does it bother you? I what way does he hurt anyone by throwing away a completely meaningless game? Since this comment is particularly dumb I will respond. It was a grudge match. Nestea wanted revenge and Naniwa had taunted him beforehand. Nestea loses. Many fans wanted to see the grudge match. Many fans lose. It is also a matter of respect. It is a type of privilege to play on that stage. You show respect to it by playing your matches and at least trying to some extent. Is it really that much to ask that you show by play using a standard strategy (thus not giving away any strategical advantage in the futuregames) for some twenty minutes? Naniwa is only getting what he is asking for. People dislike him for a reason. It's not like they just randomly chose to bully him. Not to mention GOMTV has payed him to play the round robin. Hahahaha the irony, maybe you should also have a giant shit storm for Naniwa's other 3 games, in which he was CHEESED the fuck out by everyone else. The second he tries to do a 7probe rush, there's a giant shit storm!? lolololol, maybe the contract should say "you're being paid to play MACRO games, or games LONGER than 7 minutes". Naniwa obviously on tilt, maybe next time he'll just 4gate rather than 7 probe rush, and everyone will be happy... lol. Not exaclty the same. He didn't cheese. He elaborately ragequitted the tournament. You seem to have lost the point. How does one quit a tournament you are already out of?
troll? he can't advance in the tourny but he still was playing that last "tourny" game.... it would still counted on his record of the tourny. duh?
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EPT
