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On December 10 2011 23:47 Muki wrote:
I don't agree that SC2 to BW is what -em is to standard in dota.
SC2 is different and updated to 2010 expectations and a spiritual successor to BW, while -em in dota is just a gamemode that retains every item, hero etc. but they make early gamers less useful.
The skill ceiling in SC2 is still very high even though some old mechanics from BW aren't ported. It's not like a noob could hit master league while in -em it's a LOT easier for bad players to get good stats. 2012 looks so promising for SC2 skillwise, why would you want to hold people back with ancient mechanics that take up apm and aren't that interesting to watch.
I have to disagree with you here, even though a lot of what you say is true, it is possible for a noob to hit masters. The amount it takes to bring someone to diamond level in SC2 is absurdly easy. With terran just teaching someone a proper 2 rax push used to be enough to get to masters it is still enough to get to diamond, protoss 4 warpgate was enough to get high diamond before masters was even out.
As to the second part of your post, I am saying I don't want to hold people back? I want to remove these mechanics that have no decision making just mindless APM.
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You've ignored my post. I'm assuming you are taking me as serious as I'm taking you. To rectify this impasse I am formally requesting additional information.
Have you actually tested any of this?
How long did you spend considering the ideas you've purported as game saving?
Do you have any documentation of the information you used to reach these conclusions?
Does anyone else agree with your changes other than you? For example, game designers or professional players?
It's apparent from your post history that you did not like SC2 from the start. What I did not find was anything to suggest you were an expect in the field of game design or theory. Please elaborate on the points I have requested.
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On December 10 2011 23:28 Jyxz wrote:This post belongs on a Blizzard forum.
Then why did you make this post?! This has been stated hundreds of times before, use the search function and discuss in one of the other threads.
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On December 10 2011 23:56 Probe1 wrote:
You've ignored my post. I'm assuming you are taking me as serious as I'm taking you. To rectify this impasse I am formally requesting additional information.
Have you actually tested any of this?
How long did you spend considering the ideas you've purported as game saving?
Do you have any documentation of the information you used to reach these conclusions?
Does anyone else agree with your changes other than you? For example, game designers or professional players?
It's apparent from your post history that you did not like SC2 from the start. What I did not find was anything to suggest you were an expect in the field of game design or theory. Please elaborate on the points I have requested.
Sorry I didn't see your post:
This is mostly theory craft at this time, people find inspiration at weird times and in weird ways, I want to see reaction and see if I can get any kind of support or if anyone thinks this is actually possible.
As stated in the original post I know the problems this will create, it is possible I shouldn't have thrown out numbers with my initial theory crafting but I wanted to get some the changes I thought would have to go with the major change out in the public eye for consideration.
Edit: I love starcraft 2, but your right I havent gotten the same pleasure from it that I have gotten from broodwar, but ask anyone who was pro in Sc1 and Sc2 if they feel different.
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Well I think that you just didn't understood what the desingers of the game intended to do Jyxz.
They had 2 things to do :
-make sth that "noob players" (i.e non E-sport fans) would enjoy, so automine, large units selections and multi selection of buildings (a 2010 player of RTS would just be like "wtf is this sh*t" if it wasn't the case).
-have demanding macro mechanics that allows to have a higher skill ceiling
They come up with the idea that, instead of putting stupid constraints like not making automining (yeah that's quite stupid that your worker just look at the mineral patch when his rally point is on mineral), they could try to add macro mechanics that make you make choice (well mostly for cronoboost, for larva and mules you pretty much have to do it all the time when it's available). Removing them without removing automining (and they will never do that) would lower the skill ceiling, not making this game closer to bw....
bw is a great game, but let's face it it hadn't that many fans in foreign countries, and sc2 (even if bw is better) managed to bring many more people to E-sport (that atfer can look at bw and say : "this is the real deal, I should watch it")
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>This is mostly theory craft at this time
Really..
In two years you've never seen these exact same threads before? Often with the very same suggestions?
You've find plenty of research material in the closed forum. I have nothing polite left to say so- Good luck. =/
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On December 10 2011 23:55 Jyxz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 23:47 Muki wrote:
I don't agree that SC2 to BW is what -em is to standard in dota.
SC2 is different and updated to 2010 expectations and a spiritual successor to BW, while -em in dota is just a gamemode that retains every item, hero etc. but they make early gamers less useful.
The skill ceiling in SC2 is still very high even though some old mechanics from BW aren't ported. It's not like a noob could hit master league while in -em it's a LOT easier for bad players to get good stats. 2012 looks so promising for SC2 skillwise, why would you want to hold people back with ancient mechanics that take up apm and aren't that interesting to watch. I have to disagree with you here, even though a lot of what you say is true, it is possible for a noob to hit masters. The amount it takes to bring someone to diamond level in SC2 is absurdly easy. With terran just teaching someone a proper 2 rax push used to be enough to get to masters it is still enough to get to diamond, protoss 4 warpgate was enough to get high diamond before masters was even out. As to the second part of your post, I am saying I don't want to hold people back? I want to remove these mechanics that have no decision making just mindless APM.
I believe you're right it's easy to bring up people to masters in some cases, but that more often has to do with a particular patch favoring a certain race and certain builds (usually terran). But if we took out macro mechanics people would find the "next 4 gate" or some other strong all around build that can crush everyone below diamond if the player doing it has some solid RTS skills.
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I fail to see how macro mechanics that you need to attend to in a set cycle in parallel with your actual production are somehow equivalent to literally getting free money as in DotA's EM mode.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On December 10 2011 23:40 Jyxz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 23:34 Takkara wrote:
You may think you were the first one to come up with this, but this is the 1000th time someone has suggested this... since before the beta even started. So your with me? Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 23:30 Kipsate wrote:
The problem with your theory is that the units(and thus, the entire game) are balanced around the macro mechanics. The difficulty of the solution is does not always outweigh the issues caused by the problem.
You offer a problem, yet you don't offer the full solution without taking all consequences of it taken into account.
If you are going to offer a solution, make it a good one, instead of blatantly spouting ''we should do this'' without taking into account what the consequences of those actions are.
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On December 11 2011 00:00 Jyxz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 23:56 Probe1 wrote:
You've ignored my post. I'm assuming you are taking me as serious as I'm taking you. To rectify this impasse I am formally requesting additional information.
Have you actually tested any of this?
How long did you spend considering the ideas you've purported as game saving?
Do you have any documentation of the information you used to reach these conclusions?
Does anyone else agree with your changes other than you? For example, game designers or professional players?
It's apparent from your post history that you did not like SC2 from the start. What I did not find was anything to suggest you were an expect in the field of game design or theory. Please elaborate on the points I have requested. Sorry I didn't see your post: This is mostly theory craft at this time, people find inspiration at weird times and in weird ways, I want to see reaction and see if I can get any kind of support or if anyone thinks this is actually possible. As stated in the original post I know the problems this will create, it is possible I shouldn't have thrown out numbers with my initial theory crafting but I wanted to get some the changes I thought would have to go with the major change out in the public eye for consideration. Edit: I love starcraft 2, but your right I havent gotten the same pleasure from it that I have gotten from broodwar, but ask anyone who was pro in Sc1 and Sc2 if they feel different.
Theorycrafting is generally not threadworthy on teamliquid without a lot of testing and data. If you actually did the testing you would realize how ridiculous removing the macro mechanics of sc2 is. The mechanics may not be perfect, but they make sc2 what it is. Try thinking about this before you make a thread in the future.
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Also think of it this way:
All in's and 1a ball into 1a ball for the win happen when people aren't playing optimally and the game is still largely not figured out.
The macro mechanics just alter how these come out (Like terran pulling tons of workers).
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I have been arguing for/about the removal of macro mechanics since before the game was released. This is of course provided that you want to make the game more like BW. I'm not sure if I want that anymore.
When I set out to write my macro analysis thread, it was supposed to focus on macro mechanics and their effect in speeding up the game. As I started collecting data and measuring timings of no macro mechanics vs macro mechanics build orders I found a culprit I thought was bigger than macro mechanics.
Macro mechanics, to be honest, didn't have much of an effect in the very early stages of the game. And macro mechanics making the early game volatile was the hypothesis I set out to prove when I began writing the thread.
Instead I think the changed worker AI, changed saturation limits, and the 5 minerals per trip did more for how SC2 plays out than macro mechanics. Along with macro mechanics, the differences in how saturation works has influenced unit balance and the types of units/spellcaster that can exist in the game in the first place.
tl;dr: Won't fix anything by just removing macro mechanics. Will require some fundamental changes to the design of the game. Pointless to argue, since it won't ever happen anyway. SC2 is still a good game.
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Okay, so you remove Mules and increase the cost of dropping a supply depot, but give Terran nothing to compensate?
You gave Protoss and Zerg suggestions to compensate for the removal of their macro mechanics but Terran gets nothing? Even without that massive problem with your suggestions, I don't think the removal of the macro mechanics in the game would be beneficial.
Also, your "EM mode" analogy fails miserably for me because DotA was never balanced around that mode, no effort was made to make EM mode a viable way to play, at no point did IceFrog say, "We had to nerf clinks because he was overpowered in EM mode, if the focus was on balancing around that, then it would have been an entirely different story, item prices could be adjusted, hero scaling etc. Blizzard is balancing around the macro mechanics present in the game, they know the effects that MULES, Chronoboost and Inject larva have, it's not like some players play without them and then occasionally people say, "Hey, let's play with EM" only to find it breaks the game.
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On December 10 2011 23:28 Jyxz wrote:
Often in human society something can seem really dumb to an individual and they will ask "This is silly, why is this like this?" and often times they are answered with "It has always been that way." This answer, is simply put, unacceptable. We know our history, we know people used to think the world was flat, and that cutting yourself to bleed out the bad blood was the best cure to the flu. Sometimes you have to stand up for what you believe in and keep holding on until the world has crushed you or started to see things your way.
After reading this first paragraph I thought you wanted to recruit us for a sect.....
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A less drastic version of this is to remove the freaking gold expansions everywhere, GSL does it and some tournaments does it but still majority keeps it.
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To be honest... the game is still far too young to have these kinds of huge balance discussions, especially considering we have one expansion in the near future and another one after that, both of which are bringing a huge amount of changes.
I think over time, and with the 2 expansions and lots more patching, the games skill level will rise dramatically.
I will give one example I know Artosis would agree with.
Eventually in TvT, people will eventually find a way to slap bio on the head and render it extremely weak, using the Mech strategy. Then you will have to go mech, or go home. - That may or may not be a perfect example, but it describes the point.
Starcraft 2 is still very young. Remember that.
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On December 10 2011 23:55 Jyxz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 23:47 Muki wrote:
I don't agree that SC2 to BW is what -em is to standard in dota.
SC2 is different and updated to 2010 expectations and a spiritual successor to BW, while -em in dota is just a gamemode that retains every item, hero etc. but they make early gamers less useful.
The skill ceiling in SC2 is still very high even though some old mechanics from BW aren't ported. It's not like a noob could hit master league while in -em it's a LOT easier for bad players to get good stats. 2012 looks so promising for SC2 skillwise, why would you want to hold people back with ancient mechanics that take up apm and aren't that interesting to watch. I have to disagree with you here, even though a lot of what you say is true, it is possible for a noob to hit masters. The amount it takes to bring someone to diamond level in SC2 is absurdly easy. With terran just teaching someone a proper 2 rax push used to be enough to get to masters it is still enough to get to diamond, protoss 4 warpgate was enough to get high diamond before masters was even out. As to the second part of your post, I am saying I don't want to hold people back? I want to remove these mechanics that have no decision making just mindless APM.
I agree with the first paragraph of your post at least. I played BW for years and even with 2-3 hours of games every day (sometimes more on the weekends) I remained very average with both Zerg and Protoss, and my Terran was always abysmal no matter how much time I put in.
SC2 is a different story. I didn't start playing until March of this year, I barely even play 1v1 ladder anymore, and I maintain diamond league with win rate comfortably above 50%. It's too easy if I can maintain a skill level that much higher than the majority of players with no practice whatsoever.
Edit: As to the second part of your post, the only macro mechanic that's actually mindless APM is larva inject. There are stages of the game where Protoss has to choose which things to chrono due to limited energy, and there is a decision making process where dropping MULEs is concerned as well. Granted, it tends to be simply dropping them at your furthest/least defensible expansion, but there seems to be an ideal method as opposed to just selecting your queens and hitting V every 30 seconds or whatever it is.
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I agree with Lalush!
Also, sad to say but plenty of people have said this many times before, and it's never getting done. It's a huge change to the game itself and it would take a ton more balancing to do. Not to mention how upset everybody else will be when the game has changed so drastically.
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I do understand "getting rid of 'mindless' APM" - similar to how workers now auto-mine and multi-building selection, I just don't understand how this doesn't make sc2 easier. Please explain better how getting rid of the sc2 "macro mechanics" makes it less easy?
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You're not losing on ladder because the game is fundamentally broken, you're losing on ladder because your macro hasn't hit the skill ceiling, even the best have room for improvement, no changes need to be made, you just need to get betetr at the game.
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EPT
