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On December 10 2011 23:50 Jyxz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 23:42 darklight54321 wrote:
well first of all, your proposed changes heavily benefit protoss, but look at it from another way.
using mules/chronoboosts/larva injects consistently and efficiently adds apm, this hightens the minimum mechanics apm. By removing it and adding the same basic effects (larva come faster protoss builds faster) you are actually making EM starcraft. At the bronze level I agree, but what I think is more relevant and yet forgotten is that there is no reason not to use these mechanics. Chronoboost you start with, and the other two are so powerful they have been gotten every game played since the first game of beta to the last game played today, (except maybe for 1 week when day9 did no queens for monday). These add slightly to your required APM however they are not true skill. True skill is when you have to decide whether or not to engage and army or go in for SCV kills with your muta. These are not apm they are TACTICAL decisions making it a strategy game. If something is so strong it is a must it isnt a test of skill just an unnecessary game mechanic. By your argument you should remove auto-mine and multiply building selection from the game. Beating someone shouldn't be about putting workers on minerals better it should be about making correction decisions in APM demanding situations.
You are right it doesn't require skill to never miss an inject on 3-4 hatcheries all game or to know exactly when and what to chronoboost. This is not Warcraft 3. This game is NOT DESIGNED AROUND MICRO. And actually beating someone is VERY MUCH SO about better resource collection and the APPROPRIATE DECISIONS ON HOW TO USE THOSE RESOURCES. Guess in bronze you don't have to worry about macro since you are too busy microing the shit out of that 1 muta you built.
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basically you're trying to remove the skillcaps in the game?
No Thanks.
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On December 10 2011 23:54 [17]Purple wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 23:52 Jyxz wrote:On December 10 2011 23:49 ronpaul012 wrote:
You basically just made it so protoss will never lose again. The changes to zerg are almost nothing and the changes to terran are nothing. I mean, maybe it would make for a goofy custom game to mess around with every once in a while, but I dont see it being popular. I am not sure if you understand how important chronoboost is, it has the potential to almost double your probe count. And I don't believe you understand the importance of larva inject, it has the potential to double your supply count.
I'm not sure you don't believe you don't understand the importance of mules, it has the potential to double your economy.
... Oh wait.
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On December 11 2011 05:54 sebusca wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 23:50 Jyxz wrote:On December 10 2011 23:42 darklight54321 wrote:
well first of all, your proposed changes heavily benefit protoss, but look at it from another way.
using mules/chronoboosts/larva injects consistently and efficiently adds apm, this hightens the minimum mechanics apm. By removing it and adding the same basic effects (larva come faster protoss builds faster) you are actually making EM starcraft. At the bronze level I agree, but what I think is more relevant and yet forgotten is that there is no reason not to use these mechanics. Chronoboost you start with, and the other two are so powerful they have been gotten every game played since the first game of beta to the last game played today, (except maybe for 1 week when day9 did no queens for monday). These add slightly to your required APM however they are not true skill. True skill is when you have to decide whether or not to engage and army or go in for SCV kills with your muta. These are not apm they are TACTICAL decisions making it a strategy game. If something is so strong it is a must it isnt a test of skill just an unnecessary game mechanic. By your argument you should remove auto-mine and multiply building selection from the game. Beating someone shouldn't be about putting workers on minerals better it should be about making correction decisions in APM demanding situations. This game is NOT DESIGNED AROUND MICRO.
you probably play zerg.
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On December 11 2011 06:06 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 05:54 sebusca wrote:On December 10 2011 23:50 Jyxz wrote:On December 10 2011 23:42 darklight54321 wrote:
well first of all, your proposed changes heavily benefit protoss, but look at it from another way.
using mules/chronoboosts/larva injects consistently and efficiently adds apm, this hightens the minimum mechanics apm. By removing it and adding the same basic effects (larva come faster protoss builds faster) you are actually making EM starcraft. At the bronze level I agree, but what I think is more relevant and yet forgotten is that there is no reason not to use these mechanics. Chronoboost you start with, and the other two are so powerful they have been gotten every game played since the first game of beta to the last game played today, (except maybe for 1 week when day9 did no queens for monday). These add slightly to your required APM however they are not true skill. True skill is when you have to decide whether or not to engage and army or go in for SCV kills with your muta. These are not apm they are TACTICAL decisions making it a strategy game. If something is so strong it is a must it isnt a test of skill just an unnecessary game mechanic. By your argument you should remove auto-mine and multiply building selection from the game. Beating someone shouldn't be about putting workers on minerals better it should be about making correction decisions in APM demanding situations. This game is NOT DESIGNED AROUND MICRO. you probably play zerg.
no he is right, starcraft is based on the idea of economy management that is the core of the starcraft
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On December 10 2011 23:28 Jyxz wrote:
Often in human society something can seem really dumb to an individual and they will ask "This is silly, why is this like this?" and often times they are answered with "It has always been that way." This answer, is simply put, unacceptable. We know our history, we know people used to think the world was flat, and that cutting yourself to bleed out the bad blood was the best cure to the flu. Sometimes you have to stand up for what you believe in and keep holding on until the world has crushed you or started to see things your way.
I must admit after over a year of playing Starcraft 2 I had become complacent myself, but fortunately a chain of events has occurred that has inspired me to start a movement. Firstly I watched a Broodwar game for the first time in a few months, even one I had seen before and thought something is different. It wasn't the cool lurker tactics or the muta micro, although missed they are just something from a different game, no something was wrong on a deeper level. As I looked at Jaedong's drone count I asked myself man why doesn't he just pop like 20 more drones they pay for themselves in about a minute.. So I talked to my friend about it and he said "You remember how dota had EM mode?"
-I said "EM mode?"
-He said "Oh right your not a noob, well all the crappy dota players play this mode where u get twice as much gold and the towers are weaker."
-So I said "Wouldn't that make the game really unbalanced clearly that would help some heroes way more then others."
-He said "Remember when they nerfed CLinkz even though he wasn't overpowered at all, well in EM mode he was just insane, the noobs couldn't handle him."
-"Gosh that must be ridiculous trying to balance a game based of EM mode."
-"Well just look at Starcraft 2"
Because of the chronoboost, mule, and inject larva abilities, Starcraft 2 is to Starcraft, as easy mode dota is to regular dota. It feels gimmicky and massively luck based.
I like how you started with a philosophical rant about standing up for what you believe in and use it to justify your comments. You talk like you're starting a civil rights movement. Most of us aren't "complacent" with the problems that you believe are in the game, we actually just like Starcraft 2 the way it is (generally speaking).
As people in the thread have mentioned, you can't compare Dota's easy mode to starcraft 2. Economy affects dota in a completely different way from starcraft 2.
If you want to try something like this you can make a custom map for you and your friend to play with your changes built in. Personally I think you'll find your version worse.
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-This will drastically reduce the amount of viable all ins, and potentially make expanding much more valuable.
-It will allow bigger maps without causing huge balance issues, allowing for better games.
-This will drastically reduce every races income, making games where you have 200/200 because you need it to stay alive then you end up sacrificing your units to get out better tech, much less common.
-Instead of reducing the skill cap, which is why I believe these mechanics were implemented, I truly believe it will raise it.
Can you elaborate on any of those theories? I don't see how any of those correlate with your changes(except the third one).
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So exactly why do people want to make the game harder? isn't that very silly? clearly the skill ceiling is quite huge - I don't see any of you competing in the NASL? (maybe lalush could :D)
People seem to be rallying here against volatility, but really that has more to do with a lack of good gameplay than anything else... scout more for early cheeses/all-ins etc etc... I won't bother going on about that when it's clear there are solutions.
And why do people think it's bad that the average person can get into diamond league? Ugh.. that's how the system works... there are lots and lots of casual players out there, clearly people who come on TL and most likely going to know a few things about the game and SHOULD be better than all the first time/casual players. Noobs CANNOT maintain diamond unless their skills were already quite highly tuned... 4gate requires micro and macro... just because you're not thinking about building order doesn't mean you're not thinking of a hundred other things to be successful.
So really, what is the OP's real point? Why fill teamliquid with garbage like this?
tldr; the game is great, it's working well, the changes make zero sense... go play broodwar if you want a game that is hard because of the lack of engine refinement. De-tuning the game engine or macro abilities will just ruin a game we like.
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Get better at playing against terran and stop complaining.
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I'm sorry, but you contradict yourself. Your edit doesnt sense at all. If you want the game to be harder and less luck based, you need to add MORE macro mechanics, not less. Yes, decision making is important to, but look at BW players who have to macro, which was actually a skill in BW unlike SC2, and make the right decisions. If you remove the macro components of SC2, you will essentially add more luck into the game. I don't think you really thought out your point. Just seems to contradictory to me.
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There's about a hundred threads on this, why is your opinion so different you feel it deserves its own thread?
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Jxyz sir, I salute you. Your cause is doomed but I shall always consider you a martyr.
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it's interesting but we're going to need more proof whether those mechanics make all-ins stronger more so than it helps you defend against them, if you know how to respond
and this will be shot down just like you say, why even bother posting it on TL? you're intentionally breaking a rule for your own goal, and you mention that you know you are breaking such a rule
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Your changes basically say:
make protoss overpowered
make the game easier for zerg
nerf terran
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On December 10 2011 23:55 Jyxz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 23:47 Muki wrote:
I don't agree that SC2 to BW is what -em is to standard in dota.
SC2 is different and updated to 2010 expectations and a spiritual successor to BW, while -em in dota is just a gamemode that retains every item, hero etc. but they make early gamers less useful.
The skill ceiling in SC2 is still very high even though some old mechanics from BW aren't ported. It's not like a noob could hit master league while in -em it's a LOT easier for bad players to get good stats. 2012 looks so promising for SC2 skillwise, why would you want to hold people back with ancient mechanics that take up apm and aren't that interesting to watch. I have to disagree with you here, even though a lot of what you say is true, it is possible for a noob to hit masters. The amount it takes to bring someone to diamond level in SC2 is absurdly easy. With terran just teaching someone a proper 2 rax push used to be enough to get to masters it is still enough to get to diamond, protoss 4 warpgate was enough to get high diamond before masters was even out. As to the second part of your post, I am saying I don't want to hold people back? I want to remove these mechanics that have no decision making just mindless APM.
This is the kind of argument that makes me scream....
Yes you can get to diamond or masters by doing all-ins every game, they are powerful and take less skill in general than doing a macro based play or later timing attacks, however if you only ever all-in you know nothing about the rest of the game. The amount of people that can only stay in diamond and up because they cheese 50% or more of the time would probably astound us all. If you took these people who cheese their way up and then said, for 1 whole week you can not attack without expanding first and waiting until after 15 minutes to attack.... they would probably drop a league or two in that week alone. Eventually they would learn to play a macro oriented game and be a much more well rounded player for it... and guess what... they'd probably end up top diamond or master with ease.
Besides, getting to diamond or masters isn't so easy these days, everyone has gotten better at defending cheese and the skill level over all has gone up dramatically. Diamond now is probably equivalent to high master in early season 2....
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On December 10 2011 23:34 Takkara wrote:
You may think you were the first one to come up with this, but this is the 1000th time someone has suggested this... since before the beta even started.
This again and again and again.
We've had this thread a billion times, as he says, since before SC2 was even released. If you want to play Brood War, by all means please do so.
EDIT: Seriously why when the games at the top level are getting better and better do we still have threads claiming that it's gimmicky and luck based? I just genuinely don't see it; it's a one year old game and we're seeing some really cool play. We're seeing the same people win most of the time. It's not the plethora of one base/two base all ins we saw in the first few months.
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Besides, getting to diamond or masters isn't so easy these days, everyone has gotten better at defending cheese and the skill level over all has gone up dramatically. Diamond now is probably equivalent to high master in early season 2....
That's a bit of an exaggeration, but the rest of the post seems true. Honestly, any top 8 master now, put into the first GSL, would probably have won the whole thing.
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Dota has heroes. They level up.. They buy items.. Don't compare..
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300 supply would make the game much better.
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Oh look another sc2 is easy bw is hard post -_-
e: LOL Probe1, great post.
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EPT
