On November 21 2011 01:09 Zalithian wrote: So MLG_Adam and Sundance have refuted Naniwa's claims, yet the majority will continue to believe Naniwa, shocking.
The problem is that if we assume that one side is lying, which is not necesserily the case since it's possible that Naniwa/the admin heard/said wrong and didn't realise it, then both sides have good reasons to stick to their guns and say that they didn't fuck up, the fact that there's two people one side is irrelevant since they both have the same interest.
On November 21 2011 01:09 Zalithian wrote: So MLG_Adam and Sundance have refuted Naniwa's claims, yet the majority will continue to believe Naniwa, shocking.
You run the largest Non-GSL tournament in the world.. Are you going to ADMIT that you REFUSED someone to use the washroom before a game?
Of course not. They will never admit treating their players like that. That would get major backlash.
Its really sad how people are grasping at ridiculous straws to claim extreme BM and even to go as far as imply cheating from Naniwa's side. He's clarified himself far more than what was actually necessary, if you cant see after all he has said that there was absolutely no malicious intent from his side.. you're just hating for entirely subjective reasons, and thats fine, but do it without trying to color him a cheat and fabricate ridiculous scenarios where Naniwa goes to the toilet to forge evil schemes with his teammates and spectators, I mean seriously? What the fuck?
Grats Naniwa for amazing performances beating MVP and Nestea back to back, I hope your future success wont be diminished by childish drama.
On November 21 2011 01:04 Fandango wrote: Where's the investigation into the admin who told Naniwa it was cross positions only then later denied it when it turned out it wasn't?
The admin didn't tell him that, I know because I was standing right there. Why wouldn't a player playing in a National Championship know where the spawns were? He chose the map, it is his responsibility to know the intricacies involved.
There is responsibility on the players to know the settings they are competing on. The maps were not published the day of the event.
On November 21 2011 01:04 Fandango wrote: Where's the investigation into the admin who told Naniwa it was cross positions only then later denied it when it turned out it wasn't?
The admin didn't tell him that, I know because I was standing right there. Why wouldn't a player playing in a National Championship know where the spawns were? He chose the map, it is his responsibility to know the intricacies involved.
There is responsibility on the players to know the settings they are competing on. The maps were not published the day of the event.
On November 21 2011 01:04 Fandango wrote: Where's the investigation into the admin who told Naniwa it was cross positions only then later denied it when it turned out it wasn't?
The admin didn't tell him that, I know because I was standing right there. Why wouldn't a player playing in a National Championship know where the spawns were? He chose the map, it is his responsibility to know the intricacies involved.
There is responsibility on the players to know the settings they are competing on. The maps were not published the day of the event.
You didn't quote where he said that it was a misunderstanding, or the post where someone said that it says crossposition only on MLG web?
MLG_Adam and Sundance have cleared Naniwa lol, how can you possibly misinterpret that too?
On November 21 2011 01:04 Fandango wrote: Where's the investigation into the admin who told Naniwa it was cross positions only then later denied it when it turned out it wasn't?
The admin didn't tell him that, I know because I was standing right there. Why wouldn't a player playing in a National Championship know where the spawns were? He chose the map, it is his responsibility to know the intricacies involved.
There is responsibility on the players to know the settings they are competing on. The maps were not published the day of the event.
On November 21 2011 01:04 Fandango wrote: Where's the investigation into the admin who told Naniwa it was cross positions only then later denied it when it turned out it wasn't?
The admin didn't tell him that, I know because I was standing right there. Why wouldn't a player playing in a National Championship know where the spawns were? He chose the map, it is his responsibility to know the intricacies involved.
There is responsibility on the players to know the settings they are competing on. The maps were not published the day of the event.
On November 21 2011 01:04 Fandango wrote: Where's the investigation into the admin who told Naniwa it was cross positions only then later denied it when it turned out it wasn't?
The admin didn't tell him that, I know because I was standing right there. Why wouldn't a player playing in a National Championship know where the spawns were? He chose the map, it is his responsibility to know the intricacies involved.
There is responsibility on the players to know the settings they are competing on. The maps were not published the day of the event.
You didn't quote where he said that it was a misunderstanding, or the post where someone said that it says crossposition only on MLG web?
You mean this one, where the person admitted they were wrong?
MLG_Adam and Sundance have cleared Naniwa lol, how can you possibly misinterpret that too?
On November 21 2011 01:04 Fandango wrote: Where's the investigation into the admin who told Naniwa it was cross positions only then later denied it when it turned out it wasn't?
The admin didn't tell him that, I know because I was standing right there. Why wouldn't a player playing in a National Championship know where the spawns were? He chose the map, it is his responsibility to know the intricacies involved.
There is responsibility on the players to know the settings they are competing on. The maps were not published the day of the event.
On November 21 2011 01:04 Fandango wrote: Where's the investigation into the admin who told Naniwa it was cross positions only then later denied it when it turned out it wasn't?
The admin didn't tell him that, I know because I was standing right there. Why wouldn't a player playing in a National Championship know where the spawns were? He chose the map, it is his responsibility to know the intricacies involved.
There is responsibility on the players to know the settings they are competing on. The maps were not published the day of the event.
On November 21 2011 01:04 Fandango wrote: Where's the investigation into the admin who told Naniwa it was cross positions only then later denied it when it turned out it wasn't?
The admin didn't tell him that, I know because I was standing right there. Why wouldn't a player playing in a National Championship know where the spawns were? He chose the map, it is his responsibility to know the intricacies involved.
There is responsibility on the players to know the settings they are competing on. The maps were not published the day of the event.
You didn't quote where he said that it was a misunderstanding, or the post where someone said that it says crossposition only on MLG web?
The guy that said that about the maps was referring to Shattered Temple...not Shakuras, which is listed correctly.
Oh look, it's one of those threads with no useful discussion, people going back and forth around rumors, gossiping for absolutely no reason and creating a huge shitstorm for the smallest piece of news. People can't stop to find things that make them unhappy. This whole 'drama' thing going on every week on a different subject makes me puke, I just wish TL News section made a single thread for informing the TL netizens about something (a piece of news or a statement by someone) with a locked thread, and that would be it, no useless, pages long discussion about who is right or wrong or who is good or bad. If this issue is fixed, I think TL will be a better place. I'm tired of people creating drama out of their asses.
Theres one major fault I have to mention, and please tell me why this doesnt make sense..
You have MLG, the 2nd biggest tournament in the world.. Probably the biggest non-korean gaming organization being run in the world.. This is their 8th or so MLG for SC2, so its not like its new to them..
WHY IS THE PLAYER HOSTING THE MAP??
Does this make sense to anyone else? I haven't done much in SC2 tournaments, but for WC3 I used to be a manager and for every WC3L or other tournament we ran, when the player lost and chose his next map, he wasn't allowed to host, the admin always hosted. Now I realize this is different as in BW/WC3 the server gave a lag edge to the host, but still.. A player should NEVER be the one hosting a map, that way if there IS an issue with the wrong map being host, it should always fall on the shoulders of the admins of the game.
That just didnt make sense to me. Artosis or whoever was casting/streaming should always be the one hosting.
All in all, it was a miscommunication. Remember, Naniwa is not sure a pure English speaker. You'd have to remember that even us, there are many times when we here "There is no cross spawns" as "There is cross spawns" because sometimes the no is said too fast, or etc.
Coupled with the English translation, stuff can go bad pretty often.
What we can count on is this: Naniwa and Nestea played a game. Nestea might not've been at his best, nor Naniwa. The only thing we can conclude was that there was a pause, and Naniwa went to the bathroom. Also, you may look at replays in downtime for MLG.
Given these three facts, no one should be saying anything right now. I hate it when the internet fails MATH LOGIC 301.
On November 21 2011 01:20 Snowen wrote: Theres one major fault I have to mention, and please tell me why this doesnt make sense..
You have MLG, the 2nd biggest tournament in the world.. Probably the biggest non-korean gaming organization being run in the world.. This is their 8th or so MLG for SC2, so its not like its new to them..
WHY IS THE PLAYER HOSTING THE MAP??
Does this make sense to anyone else? I haven't done much in SC2 tournaments, but for WC3 I used to be a manager and for every WC3L or other tournament we ran, when the player lost and chose his next map, he wasn't allowed to host, the admin always hosted. Now I realize this is different as in BW/WC3 the server gave a lag edge to the host, but still.. A player should NEVER be the one hosting a map, that way if there IS an issue with the wrong map being host, it should always fall on the shoulders of the admins of the game.
That just didnt make sense to me. Artosis or whoever was casting/streaming should always be the one hosting.
Honestly, I fail to see how people can equate the numbers for build orders in the post-game, to literally EVERYTHING going on. His overlord scout patterns, his building positioning, all the intricacies of his early game, that are vital to know during a cannon rush. And in any case, can you think of any other reasoning for watching it other than trying to get an unfair advantage?
On November 21 2011 01:22 ScythedBlade wrote: All in all, it was a miscommunication. Remember, Naniwa is not sure a pure English speaker. You'd have to remember that even us, there are many times when we here "There is no cross spawns" as "There is cross spawns" because sometimes the no is said too fast, or etc.
Coupled with the English translation, stuff can go bad pretty often.
What we can count on is this: Naniwa and Nestea played a game. Nestea might not've been at his best, nor Naniwa. The only thing we can conclude was that there was a pause, and Naniwa went to the bathroom. Also, you may look at replays in downtime for MLG.
Given these three facts, no one should be saying anything right now. I hate it when the internet fails MATH LOGIC 301.
Exactly. I don't think anyone 'lied' here, I think it was a complete miscommunication.
On November 21 2011 01:20 Bleak wrote: Oh look, it's one of those threads with no useful discussion, people going back and forth around rumors, gossiping for absolutely no reason and creating a huge shitstorm for the smallest piece of news. People can't stop to find things that make them unhappy. This whole 'drama' thing going on every week on a different subject makes me puke, I just wish TL News section made a single thread for informing the TL netizens about something (a piece of news or a statement by someone) with a locked thread, and that would be it, no useless, pages long discussion about who is right or wrong or who is good or bad. If this issue is fixed, I think TL will be a better place. I'm tired of people creating drama out of their asses.
Exactly this. This whole discussion is ridiculous. Can´t we, as a community, stop this kinda nonsense and continue beeing a esports community as a whole?
TL should create create another banner with this silly elephant, like: Stop launching shitstorms for nothing, you are hurting Elly, the Esports Elephant
In the interview nani said he scouted 10pool on the game that had to be restarted, the restarted match was 15 hatch right? I don't get what all the fuzz about him watching the replay is...
On November 21 2011 01:20 Bleak wrote: Oh look, it's one of those threads with no useful discussion, people going back and forth around rumors, gossiping for absolutely no reason and creating a huge shitstorm for the smallest piece of news. People can't stop to find things that make them unhappy. This whole 'drama' thing going on every week on a different subject makes me puke, I just wish TL News section made a single thread for informing the TL netizens about something (a piece of news or a statement by someone) with a locked thread, and that would be it, no useless, pages long discussion about who is right or wrong or who is good or bad. If this issue is fixed, I think TL will be a better place. I'm tired of people creating drama out of their asses.
Exactly this. This whole discussion is ridiculous. Can´t we, as a community, stop this kinda nonsense and continue beeing a esports community as a whole?
But if we're all rational and reasonable, some of the witches might escape!
I can see where Naniwa got the miscommunication, as "cross-map" spawns sounds a lot like cross-position, but obviously is not. To a non native English speaker the difference may be missed entirely. Everyone needs to calm down.
EDIT: Just saw the other change in the changelog, I'm not completely stupid promise -.-
Just thought I`d repost this here to see if Adam wants to correct stuff that is wrong.
EDIT: Claryfying MLG Statement:
"After extensive investigation, review of the video files and 2011 Pro Circuit rules, we have determined that the replay had no impact on the tournament flow or the match results. Build orders are displayed at the end of a match on the stats screen. So the replay that was viewed would have revealed nothing the match stats page would not have revealed otherwise.
Additionally, to clarify, the Complexity manager was allowed in the booth, accompanied by MLG staff, after the match had started in order to keep the game in motion after a discrepancy with his player that would have impacted the continuation of the game. Moving forward, we will look at rules outlawing any replay views on a tournament PC"
Okay let us try to put this thing to an end. Here is some information I`ve gathered about the whole Nestea vs Naniwa situation. 1. Naniwa calling Nestea an idiot
Naniwa did call Nestea an idiot. But he did it referencing one particular episode. He was referencing the episode where Nestea decided to pull his drones for an attack, but was only feinting and withdrew his drones before reaching Naniwas base. So he did call him an idiot, but there is a strong case for him simply trying to communicate that he thought that particular tactical move was idiotic .
Naniwa apologized for this later: "I must have formulated myself badly in the interviews I did not mean to call nestea bad. Or. An idiot watch next col iview. . " https://twitter.com/#!/CoLNaniwa
2. The first attempt at playing game 3 This is what I`ve gathered: Naniwa needed to go to the toilet after game 2. He asked the admins to go. This is allowed in the rules but the decision is up to the admin. Apparently the admin said no, and the game was started.
But without the admin knowing the stream had in the meantime started showing an ad. So the start of the game was not shown. At some point the game was paused.
Then it was decided that the game would be restarted, and the players would get a chance to go to the toilet before starting the game over.
"Basically in game 3, the map was Shak. The game was begun before the stream was out of commercial which meant they had to stop and re-enter the game again."
Reddit witness account: "I caught in the chat one of the players saying that they needed to use the W.C. before the match started (I don't know which one it was), to which the admin responded "no, we have to start now". Then RedB said "ask your admin" to which the admin in the chat responded "we're going now" and they immediately cut to the ads on the player screens. At that point Artosis and Tasteless are still on the screen, but the match had started. Then Tasteless says something about "NaNiWa says he's going to pause the match.... we have to sort this out" - at which point I realized that it was NaNiWa that had to use the bathroom, and after about a minute of play (which was never put on the screen), paused the match. That's when they cut to the paused game in which there was OVER a minute of play time played. At this point, nobody really did anything, until the admins on stage realized that it was a horrible situation and they had to let him go to the bathroom (I get that they were late to start with... but it seems unreasonable to start a match when one of your players isn't ready because of time issues). That's when they cut away, NaNiWa left the booth (presumably to go to the bathroom). "
2. The replay incident After going to the toilet Naniwa is said to have loaded up the replay of the game that was aborted. (This is known because his screen apparently was shown on a large screen visible to the audience) This is not strictly against MLG rules and he could already see the build order on the game ending screen. An Admin went into his booth and told him to stop. At this point Naniwa had already seen Nestea`s build.
MLG statement "After extensive investigation, review of the video files and 2011 Pro Circuit rules, we have determined that the replay had no impact on the tournament flow or the match results. Build orders are displayed at the end of a match on the stats screen. So the replay that was viewed would have revealed nothing the match stats page would not have revealed otherwise.
Redditt witness: "NaNiWa got back before NesTea (I believe), but in any case, he quickly pulled up the replay from the match before anybody could stop him. As soon as the official on the stage realized, he went into the booth to tell him to stop, but it was too late, NaNiWa had already seen the starting position of NesTea."
3. The second attempt at playing game 3 After quite some time game 3 was remade and they started playing. Naniwa moved a probe across the map (thinking for some reason that the map was cross positions only) and when he got to where he assumed Nestea would be (but was not) he paused the game. Some background here: Earlier MLG events used to have this map be only cross positions. This has later been changed and now adheres to the Blizzard ladder versions rules to positions.
Then this happened: Naniwa reacted strongly and claimed that a admin had said to him that the map was cross positions only. According to Sundance this was not correct:
"He made a mistake then claimed it was the ref.Hhe picked before our admin even went into the booth. Some maps have crosses some do not. He chose one thinking that it was a cross position map when it wasn't. Not a big deal in the end but annoying none the less."
So here we have two different versions of what went down.
4. The "Coach" incident Apparently to calm the situation down and to make Naniwa ready to continue playing, MLG staff allowed the Player Manager (Not Coach) of Complexity gaming, Scott Ford to enter Naniwa`s booth. He was there to relay what MLG had decided. No regame and that it was his fault I can only assume. Then after a while the game was restarted.
MLG Statement about the incident: "Additionally, to clarify, the Complexity manager was allowed in the booth, accompanied by MLG staff, after the match had started in order to keep the game in motion after a discrepancy with his player that would have impacted the continuation of the game."
Reddit Eye witness: "I could see the lead admin guy ask and look at all of the other officials on the stage, to which people were shaking their heads, as if everyone was agreeing that nobody told him this. At that point, the official went back in the booth to break the bad news to NaNiWa. NaNiWa was PISSED, visually repeating "NO, NO, NO!". It was apparent that he felt cheated, which I believe that he actually was. If he was told cross spawns, and it wasn't, that could seriously mess up your entire game, and in my opinion, the game should have been replayed."
5. Naniwa being punished by MLG. MLG have two different rulesets that applies to these kind of situations. You have the event rules, and the conduct rules.
Naniwa did break the pause game rules. He paused the game without asking the referee. This gets you a WARNING. A WARNING is largely inconsequential. It only matters if you get more warnings and may lose you the game you are playing. They do not stay with the player throughout the event.
"Each subsequent Warning that a Player receives will result in a Forfeit of the Game"
Slasher at first said that Naniwa got a technical foul from his quotes. He later withdrew that statement. https://twitter.com/#!/SLASHER
At this point Naniwa has not gotten a technical foul but should at least by the rules have gotten a warning, that does not really matter for later matches. He may get a technical foul for calling MLG a joke tournament and for the thumbs down ceremony. It is worth noting that many other ceremonies and statements of similiar character has gone unpunished at earlier MLG events and in this one.
I really didn't like Nani before, but he's grown a lot and it would have saddened me if he'd reverted to.. you know, that. So I'm happy this got cleared up, for those of us who don't need drama everywhere anyways. For those of you who do.. srsly.. ><
Hope it doesn't affect the rest of his tournament.
On November 21 2011 01:20 Snowen wrote: Theres one major fault I have to mention, and please tell me why this doesnt make sense..
You have MLG, the 2nd biggest tournament in the world.. Probably the biggest non-korean gaming organization being run in the world.. This is their 8th or so MLG for SC2, so its not like its new to them..
WHY IS THE PLAYER HOSTING THE MAP??
Does this make sense to anyone else? I haven't done much in SC2 tournaments, but for WC3 I used to be a manager and for every WC3L or other tournament we ran, when the player lost and chose his next map, he wasn't allowed to host, the admin always hosted. Now I realize this is different as in BW/WC3 the server gave a lag edge to the host, but still.. A player should NEVER be the one hosting a map, that way if there IS an issue with the wrong map being host, it should always fall on the shoulders of the admins of the game.
That just didnt make sense to me. Artosis or whoever was casting/streaming should always be the one hosting.
Players select the map, not host.
You misunderstood what I meant.. Of course players choose what map they want to play on.. By why are they hosting??
In just about every tournament I have been involved with; after the game for example After Naniwa lost, he would msg the admin saying "Shakuras next" and the admin would make the game and invite the two players.
That way its fair for everyone. Who is to say some MLG someone will have a map with fixed spawn position cheats or something happening if he makes the game?
EPT
![[image loading]](http://a.yfrog.com/img875/5148/gn3ij.jpg)
