EPTIPL Charity Stream to Support Amanda (PPSL) 11/14 - Page 28
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IMPORTANT: the flights are now covered, and Amanda should be fine: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285511¤tpage=25#487 further donations will be for "paying event salaries (casters, talent, staff, etc.) and other event-related expenses" | ||
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Sufinsil
United States760 Posts
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Dakkas
2550 Posts
On November 15 2011 13:08 SCST wrote: Corporates are full of smart people who take advantage of those that choose to "see the glass as half full". IGN is going to make >$10,000,000 profit this year. This entire event is a drop in the bucket - a drop . They can donate the rest, they are simply choosing not too in order to save a few bucks. I'm sorry if you don't see that - I wish I didn't either. My experience with companies like these has altered my rose-colored glasses. Again, not saying Amanda shouldn't receive help, in my opinion she should. However, it should come from IGN. All of it. There's no legal obligation for IGN to pay the entire balance - that much is clear; but that doesn't mean it isn't the right thing for them to do. Cute. Prepare for the revelation when you hit puberty let alone understands about how the world works. Your lack of understanding here is atrocious, you're basically spitting in the face of any large business that attempts to set-up charity events | ||
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SCST
Mexico1609 Posts
On November 15 2011 12:53 dAPhREAk wrote: 1. IGN is not required to do anything. It fulfilled its obligation of paying its $14,000. 2. IGN uses its own resources (stream and casters) to create a charity event for amanda. no requirement they do so. Yep, sounds like greedy capitalism to me. Stop making demands on companies that you have no right asking for. 1. It's not about obligation, it's about the fact that IGN is clearly making a moral stand by driving the charity, but is caught red-handed by not just taking care of the problem themselves when they do have the means to do it. 2. IGN is uses their resources to help Amanda "partially", rather than just taking care of the problem which they could. I find the psychology being used here fascinating. Not only does IGN win community support by distancing themselves from the problems at the event, they appear to be the "good" guy even though they are selfishly asking the community to cough up (what is to IGN) the equivalent of a drop-in-the-bucket of profits. They could pay the whole thing, they chose not to. My argument is that simple. | ||
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Insurrectionist
Norway141 Posts
On November 15 2011 13:18 SCST wrote: Free money? That's what IGN is asking for from the community. Yet they have tons of money and the ability to donate. Some companies do donate lots of money to charity - though they are few are far between. It comes down to the individuals within the company - how strong are their convictions? How important is the charity in their opinion? Never in my life have I seen or worked for a company that has had the means to support a charity, but chooses to beg other people to support it instead. It's ridiculous to argue on behalf of wealthy organization or person, trying to make an excuse for said person/organization as to why they should not share, and why others (people who may be less fortunate but more generous), should! As far as I know from following the whole debacle, IPL had never interacted with Amanda prior to this issue. No one working for the IPL had ever interacted with her. Before this charity event was organized, pretty much no one were connecting Amanda's problems and the IPL's sponsorship in any way. So why do they suddenly have a moral obligation to do anything now? If they hadn't started this thread, no one would be criticizing the IPL for anything, and focused their anger at Gus. In fact, they'd probably have been praised for allocating the remaining money to Amanda instead of spreading it out across all the different creditors who remain unpaid. But because they decided to try and get her sufficient money to stay out of jail by using their brand name, stream channel, and stream revenue tonight, they get criticized for not donating everything owed? The IPL has a responsibility to maximize income to their mother-company IGN, and even if the people running the IPL would want to donate all the money, it's unlikely they'd be able to. | ||
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Synche
United States1345 Posts
IPL really needs to make things right. Ting screwed up big time with this decision. IGN should be looking at his job, too. I hope people are looking at how colossally screwed up it is that a bunch of people made unprofessional decisions to reach this point. And now they're asking for the community to bail them out. I love being nice, I might even donate a buck or two because of how fucked up this whole thing is, but let's make sure people get their heads on straight in the future. | ||
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JinDesu
United States3990 Posts
On November 15 2011 13:28 SCST wrote: 1. It's not about obligation, it's about the fact that IGN is clearly making a moral stand by driving the charity, but is caught red-handed by not just taking care of the problem themselves when they do have the means to do it. 2. IGN is uses their resources to help Amanda "partially", rather than just taking care of the problem which they could. I find the psychology being used here fascinating. Not only does IGN win community support by distancing themselves from the problems at the event, they appear to be the "good" guy even though they are selfishly asking the community to cough up (what is to IGN) the equivalent of a drop-in-the-bucket of profits. They could pay the whole thing, they chose not to. My argument is that simple. You have some amazing insight into the exact relationship between IPL and IGN. I mean, it's pretty amazing that you know IPL has so much money behind them when they were running IPL 1 and 2 off zero money from IGN. Man, you must have some serious inside information. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On November 15 2011 13:28 SCST wrote: 1. It's not about obligation, it's about the fact that IGN is clearly making a moral stand by driving the charity, but is caught red-handed by not just taking care of the problem themselves when they do have the means to do it. 2. IGN is uses their resources to help Amanda "partially", rather than just taking care of the problem which they could. I find the psychology being used here fascinating. Not only does IGN win community support by distancing themselves from the problems at the event, they appear to be the "good" guy even though they are selfishly asking the community to cough up (what is to IGN) the equivalent of a drop-in-the-bucket of profits. They could pay the whole thing, they chose not to. My argument is that simple. you dont happen to be occupying oakland or wall street while you are writing these posts are you? OCCUPY TEAM LIQUID THREADS~! WE ARE THE 99%~! lol | ||
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midgettoes
Australia180 Posts
On November 15 2011 13:28 SCST wrote: 1. It's not about obligation, it's about the fact that IGN is clearly making a moral stand by driving the charity, but is caught red-handed by not just taking care of the problem themselves when they do have the means to do it. 2. IGN is uses their resources to help Amanda "partially", rather than just taking care of the problem which they could. I find the psychology being used here fascinating. Not only does IGN win community support by distancing themselves from the problems at the event, they appear to be the "good" guy even though they are selfishly asking the community to cough up (what is to IGN) the equivalent of a drop-in-the-bucket of profits. They could pay the whole thing, they chose not to. My argument is that simple. The top 1% could solve world hunger, they choose not to. Problem argument? They can do it, they have no obligation to. If GSL failed you wouldn't see LG/GSkill covering the costs, since they would have provided the sponsorship money and that's all they need to do. If someone in the organisation feels bad and gets company approval to run this charity they shouldn't get criticised, or additional funding. IGN is doing a good thing, beyond their obligations. | ||
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JesusOurSaviour
United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On November 15 2011 13:29 SimDawg wrote: E-sports needs lawyers The simple fact is that I don't know how Amanda gets by in life, let alone runs a business. It's incredibly naive to go on the hook for that much money without something in writing. IPL really needs to make things right. Ting screwed up big time with this decision. IGN should be looking at his job, too. I hope people are looking at how colossally screwed up it is that a bunch of people made unprofessional decisions to reach this point. And now they're asking for the community to bail them out. I love being nice, I might even donate a buck or two because of how fucked up this whole thing is, but let's make sure people get their heads on straight in the future.  Hi Jason Lake / the other Jason (Complexity's bosses are all lawyers according to InControl)Lawyers and Contracts, KeSPA's and USAeSPA's | ||
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andrea20
Canada441 Posts
On November 15 2011 13:30 JinDesu wrote: they were running IPL 1 and 2 off zero money from IGN. Really? Then why even attach IGN's name to it at all? | ||
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rijndael
Philippines15 Posts
On November 15 2011 13:29 Insurrectionist wrote: As far as I know from following the whole debacle, IPL had never interacted with Amanda prior to this issue. No one working for the IPL had ever interacted with her. Before this charity event was organized, pretty much no one were connecting Amanda's problems and the IPL's sponsorship in any way. So why do they suddenly have a moral obligation to do anything now? If they hadn't started this thread, no one would be criticizing the IPL for anything, and focused their anger at Gus. In fact, they'd probably have been praised for allocating the remianing money to Amanda instead of spreading it out across all the different creditors who remain unpaid. But because they decided to try and get her sufficient money to stay out of jail by using their brand name, stream channel, and stream revenue tonight, they get criticized for not donating everything owed? The IPL has a responsibility to maximize income to their mother-company IGN, and even if the people running the IPL would want to donate all the money, it's unlikely they'd be able to. This. Plus you do realize that if iGN bailed Amanda out for everything, and realized that the cost of unexpected shit that turns up isn't worth the investment - publicity ratio, then IGN would just pull the plug on the IPL. We wouldn't want that to happen, would we? | ||
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Vindicate
United States169 Posts
On November 15 2011 13:28 SCST wrote: 1. It's not about obligation, it's about the fact that IGN is clearly making a moral stand by driving the charity, but is caught red-handed by not just taking care of the problem themselves when they do have the means to do it. 2. IGN is uses their resources to help Amanda "partially", rather than just taking care of the problem which they could. I find the psychology being used here fascinating. Not only does IGN win community support by distancing themselves from the problems at the event, they appear to be the "good" guy even though they are selfishly asking the community to cough up (what is to IGN) the equivalent of a drop-in-the-bucket of profits. They could pay the whole thing, they chose not to. My argument is that simple. That's fine, but the argument relies on corporations assuming poor business practice. Think of it this way: according to your logic, a company can pay for something charitable, so it should. This progresses logically up to the break even point where a company makes 0 net profit. The company then has no money to reinvest in the company, so no new products or advancements come out. Company then folds because it can't meet the demand of the industry in the face of the companies who didn't donate/screw themselves. Your model drives all charitable organizations out of business.. it's an unsustainable model. | ||
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Surriel
United Kingdom198 Posts
On November 15 2011 13:18 SCST wrote: Free money? That's what IGN is asking for from the community. Yet they have tons of money and the ability to donate. Some companies do donate lots of money to charity - though they are few are far between. It comes down to the individuals within the company - how strong are their convictions? How important is the charity in their opinion? Never in my life have I seen or worked for a company that has had the means to support a charity, but chooses to beg other people to support it instead. It's ridiculous to argue on behalf of wealthy organization or person, trying to make an excuse for said person/organization as to why they should not share, and why others (people who may be less fortunate but more generous), should! You seem to be under the impression that the whole IGN is behind this donation drive, while in fact it is the eSports division of IGN. I was under the impression from the IPL3 interview with their headhoncho that he had the initiative to start the eSports division on his own, and was trying to prove to his boss that it can be successful. After IPL1 and 2 with minimum funding, he finally succeeded in getting them to fund a bigger event in IPL3. Point is, IGN is a business and they are not going to just be handing out money just for the fun of it. Now imagine you are in the eSports division, and this debacle happened. You want to pay for Amanda debt but all you have is the 7000$ you didnt give to PPSL. What do you do? Do you go to corporate and ask your boss, hey this woman I know is being scammed and I feel it is our duty to fork out the rest of the money to pay for her expenses, even though its really not our fault. Your boss is going to laugh at your face. Of course you can pay the rest of the money using your own division budget but that would cut into future tournament expenses and prize pools. So what do you do? You hold a fundraising. Seems like the appropriate reaction to me. | ||
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Athox
Norway64 Posts
keep unions out of esports. there are laws in place you know. you can use them. if real life laws can't stop people like gus, do you REALLY think an arbitrary organization's rules will? | ||
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17Sphynx17
580 Posts
The problem with how stuff is done here in the philippines is most avoid the paper trail to avoid paying taxes. Contracts are not notarized and just appear as a "formal" agreement between 2 parties. It is true that once signed, it should be honored, but if its not notarized, and not witnessed, then it should not be "legally" binding in certain cases. Trust is what most work on here in the philippines. While I believe SnixSniPe's family's experience shows a side of the how it can happen, it is possible to work harmoniously. But there really is a risk in it. A friend of mine once said, "if you plan on doing business, don't do it with friends or family as you run the risk of losing the relationship once money is involved." Which is for the most part true because agruements/disagreements will happen once money is involved as both have a vested interest. I still believe Gus just mismanaged everything and didn't account for the total cash that was/would be available to the PPSL Event and just ran with it. I still expect a statement from Team AZK regarding the matter as it is still them who is still involved and a party to the "organizing body" who has still not made any official statement. One post here said they would rather work on it on the sidelines and clear the mess up. If amanduh is the real Amanda then again, an official statement would be nice. And if she is in touch with any of the leaders of Team AZK then I hope she can tell them to release an official statement. They are still trying to dodge the issue, at least to me which is still wrong. There was also a blog from a JPL in techkitchen where claims were made http://techkitchen.ph/2011/11/the-fall-of-philippine-e-sports/ So Team AZK needs to clear the mess up and confront the issue like the ones raised on the blog, if it is true or false. Just my 2 cents. | ||
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slicknav
1409 Posts
On November 15 2011 13:18 Rocor wrote: Hello, Just had a question for anyone in the Philippines. Is it common practice for travel agencies to front people thousands of dollars with no legal means to collect said money or insurance to cover ? It just seems if that is how business is done over there that there would be a ton of people getting ripped off all the time. How could anyone stay in business there ? Has anyone verified that this was the actual amount owed ? There is no travel company name,contract language,receipts for flights ect. posted. just a persons first name and a dollar amount owed. Stream is open ! just waiting for a little more explanation before donating, Gus could have signed a contract saying he would pay for the travel...but as the OP stated he is currently nowhere to be found. It's entirely possible that he signed a contract/made an agreement and then didn't honor his end, leaving other parties screwed. Gunrun has mentioned the amount, and I'm pretty sure a company like IGN would do their diligence on Amanda and the amount owed before coming up with the event. | ||
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untiemyshoe
New Zealand110 Posts
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Devolved
United States2753 Posts
On November 15 2011 12:50 SCST wrote: Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations? Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much. There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves (yes, IGN is capable), then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you. I think this is a good point. Maybe it wasn't IGN personally screwing over Amanda, but they were directly involved with the organizers of the tournament and were using the tournament for their own gain (advertising of IGN/IPL and it was used as a qualifier that they themselves would get out of having to organize and run). The same can not be said for the thousands of SC2ers that are now asked to bail out people that got screwed over in a business deal that IGN was a part of. IGN may not be directly at fault or liable for losses incurred by the parties involved, but their name was attached to this debacle of a tournament, and as such hold a certain level of responsibility. Apparently, they view that level of responsibility as very low. Instead of providing additional funds from their own corporate wallet, they are panhandling random SC2ers and forum-goers that had no involvement in the tournament. They should be taking responsibility for making a poor business decision, not guilt-tripping the community into covering their ass. Essentially, IGN tried to take a short-cut by partnering their SEA Qualifier with the PPSL. This saved them tons of money and man-hours because they weren't directly having to run the tournament. It was a risk that didn't pan out, and now they are pandering off the financial responsibilities of the tournament to us, the SC2 fanbase. Like you mentioned, it sucks for Amanda and it's great to see that her livelihood will not be ruined because of this, but it seems a bit disingenuous for IGN to be asking for donations because one of their business deals went sour. The small business that I work for has 10's of thousands of dollars of unpaid invoices, but we don't go creating charity events to try to recoup the money. The owner foots the bill himself. Considering IGN is a huge corporation, bumping their sponsorship money up a few thousand dollars would have been a simple task, but instead they are asking 14 year-olds and anyone else that is willing to clean up a mistake that they were directly involved in. | ||
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SCST
Mexico1609 Posts
On November 15 2011 13:29 Insurrectionist wrote: As far as I know from following the whole debacle, IPL had never interacted with Amanda prior to this issue. No one working for the IPL had ever interacted with her. Before this charity event was organized, pretty much no one were connecting Amanda's problems and the IPL's sponsorship in any way. So why do they suddenly have a moral obligation to do anything now? If they hadn't started this thread, no one would be criticizing the IPL for anything, and focused their anger at Gus. In fact, they'd probably have been praised for allocating the remaining money to Amanda instead of spreading it out across all the different creditors who remain unpaid. But because they decided to try and get her sufficient money to stay out of jail by using their brand name, stream channel, and stream revenue tonight, they get criticized for not donating everything owed? The IPL has a responsibility to maximize income to their mother-company IGN, and even if the people running the IPL would want to donate all the money, it's unlikely they'd be able to. IGN is under no obligation to donate anything. However, they chose to take up this cause, which shows admirable moral quality. The issue I have is that the amount of money their asking for is so miniscule for them. If this were a significant amount of money relative to their profit margin alone, I wouldn't be picking a bone with them. Having worked in a corporate environment for many years, and seeing the thought-processes of many decision makers inside these companies, it irks me to no end when I see this kind of stingy charity work. Just pay it. Don't ask others to pay help or "alleviate" the incredible "burden" of a few thousand bucks. Just pay it. | ||
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rijndael
Philippines15 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On November 15 2011 13:34 17Sphynx17 wrote: Well in the philippines, as long as every paperwork is in order, it can be put to trial for failure to meet with obligation. Might have to start with arbitration first but there should be no stopping it from getting traction. The problem with how stuff is done here in the philippines is most avoid the paper trail to avoid paying taxes. Contracts are not notarized and just appear as a "formal" agreement between 2 parties. It is true that once signed, it should be honored, but if its not notarized, and not witnessed, then it should not be "legally" binding in certain cases. Trust is what most work on here in the philippines. While I believe SnixSniPe's family's experience shows a side of the how it can happen, it is possible to work harmoniously. But there really is a risk in it. A friend of mine once said, "if you plan on doing business, don't do it with friends or family as you run the risk of losing the relationship once money is involved." Which is for the most part true because agruements/disagreements will happen once money is involved as both have a vested interest. I still believe Gus just mismanaged everything and didn't account for the total cash that was/would be available to the PPSL Event and just ran with it. I still expect a statement from Team AZK regarding the matter as it is still them who is still involved and a party to the "organizing body" who has still not made any official statement. One post here said they would rather work on it on the sidelines and clear the mess up. If amanduh is the real Amanda then again, an official statement would be nice. And if she is in touch with any of the leaders of Team AZK then I hope she can tell them to release an official statement. They are still trying to dodge the issue, at least to me which is still wrong. There was also a blog from a JPL in techkitchen where claims were made http://techkitchen.ph/2011/11/the-fall-of-philippine-e-sports/ So Team AZK needs to clear the mess up and confront the issue like the ones raised on the blog, if it is true or false. Just my 2 cents. The blog has disappeared apparently. What's alarming is the fact that according to the blog Gus and some members from AZK flew to Las Vegas to meet with the IPL guys, considering the finances for that, that would cost around $1000(?rough estimate?) round trip per person, not to add hotel accommodations and whatnot. Its just sad that IPL wasn't the only one with something to lose: ![[image loading]](http://technogra.ph/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/ppsl-ipl4poster.jpg) That's about 10 other sponsors down there. | ||
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