I'm sure you are all by now at least aware of the incredible amount of issues that occurred during the PPSL the weekend before last. There remains a major issue that we, on behalf of Amanda who worked with the PPSL, are reaching out to the community to try to solve. That issue is, unfortunately, finances.
Right now the PPSL has around $23,000 in unpaid debt. $7,000 of that will be paid by us, but it seems like Gus, the organizer of the PPSL, is nowhere to be found and is not owning up to the remaining debt. The issue with this is that it is not Gus' name whom is liable for this debt. He used Amanda, who works at a travel agency, to book the hotel and flights. The total amount of this debt that is related to travel is $12,000. If this does not get paid by November 21st, her business (the travel agency) will have to stop operations until the amount is paid, plus penalties. They will not be allowed to make reservations and create tickets and will be in essence, shut down. In addition it opens up the possibility that Amanda will be arrested or sued.
Here's what the IPL is going to do to help try to resolve the situation:
Tonight we are going to be running our stream with replays of some of the top PPSL games. All proceeds generated by the stream tonight will be directly given to Amanda. In addition, we are opening a 'Support Amanda' button, which allows anyone to donate to Amanda's bills. We are not taking a single cent of this money.
I know a lot of people will say this isn't their problem, and that's true to an extent. This is more of a plea to the community to help out someone who tried to make esports grow and got completely and utterly screwed. We are looking to raise at minimum $5000 to at least cover the expenses of travel and protect Amanda from going to jail and her business being shut down. If there is overage it will go to paying event salaries (casters, talent, staff, etc.) and other event-related expenses, but we feel like it's most important to protect and support Amanda at this point.
If nothing else, please tune in tonight to our stream to have your ad revenue forwarded on to Amanda. The games we will be broadcasting tonight at 5 PM PDT are: Moon vs azk.JS, MarineKingPrime vs oGs.MC, and FXO.whale vs MarineKingPrime
The 'Support Amanda' button is live on our site at http://www.ign.com/ipl - you can give as little as $1. Please help out someone who is caught up in a terrible situation.
"...but it seems like Gus, the organizer of the PPSL, is nowhere to be found..."
it pretty much sums up everything for me.
scam
You should publish his picture? Aren't we allowed to do this? I know in some countries you can publish some data about person who commit a crime as a form of punishment.
On November 15 2011 07:41 JesusOurSaviour wrote: Agh,.. Anyone know a good way to link debit cards to paypal? Got no credit card...
And what time in KST or Australian Eastern Standard Time will the stream be up?
You can link Paypal to your debit account, although it's not the best idea (in case someone gets your paypal account info). I have it that way because my debit account has fraud protection.
On November 15 2011 07:41 JesusOurSaviour wrote: Agh,.. Anyone know a good way to link debit cards to paypal? Got no credit card...
And what time in KST or Australian Eastern Standard Time will the stream be up?
IF it isn't a Visa debit card (like mine), then I'm afraid its impossible (in most countries). But you can link your Aussie bank acc to an aussie paypal account.
On November 15 2011 07:45 iky43210 wrote: who is Amanda, and why did she sign the bills instead of gus?
Amanda was the Travel Agent Gus used to book all the airfare through, which accounted for almost every single player round-trip, and then got stiffed on the bills. IIRC Travel Agencies get better deals on flights, so they buy the tickets, and then get reimbursed by the client, and Gus never paid her.
I will tune in and donate, really makes me angry beyond words at how someone could do this to people. I don't want to vent to much because I don't want to get a warning on teamliquid.
But man i really hate that guy.. I hope this all gets remedied.
On November 15 2011 07:45 iky43210 wrote: who is Amanda, and why did she sign the bills instead of gus?
Amanda was the Travel Agent Gus used to book all the airfare through, which accounted for almost every single player round-trip, and then got stiffed on the bills. IIRC Travel Agencies get better deals on flights, so they buy the tickets, and then get reimbursed by the client, and Gus never paid her.
I see. But don't travel agents make you sign contracts to prevent this? So she can go to court about it?
Not that I want to put this effort down but, just wanted to know what if at the off-chance, Gus suddenly turns up with the money? And then he says that because Amanda has already settled her debts, keeps the money for himself?
On November 15 2011 07:52 pdd wrote: Not that I want to put this effort down but, just wanted to know what if at the off-chance, Gus suddenly turns up with the money? And then he says that because Amanda has already settled her debts, keeps the money for himself?
I think the very act of showing that we care about Amanda means he will feel no responsibility at this point.
The stream link is http://www.ign.com/ipl or watch on http://www.twitch.tv/ignproleague to get rid of the Twitch watermark. The PPSL games will be cast at 5 p.m. Pacific / 8 p.m. Eastern / 2 a.m. CEST / Noon Eastern Australia time, or 2 hours from this post.
On November 15 2011 07:52 pdd wrote: Not that I want to put this effort down but, just wanted to know what if at the off-chance, Gus suddenly turns up with the money? And then he says that because Amanda has already settled her debts, keeps the money for himself?
Well the fact that he is hiding hurts those chances, and if he didn't give the money in the first place what makes you think he will give it at all?
On November 15 2011 07:52 pdd wrote: Not that I want to put this effort down but, just wanted to know what if at the off-chance, Gus suddenly turns up with the money? And then he says that because Amanda has already settled her debts, keeps the money for himself?
I am sure IGN would do something good, IGN is very trustworthy and responsible. Gus has way more he owes than just this Amanda debt though. I donated because i don't want to see some innocent persons life get screwed over.
On November 15 2011 07:45 iky43210 wrote: who is Amanda, and why did she sign the bills instead of gus?
Amanda was the Travel Agent Gus used to book all the airfare through, which accounted for almost every single player round-trip, and then got stiffed on the bills. IIRC Travel Agencies get better deals on flights, so they buy the tickets, and then get reimbursed by the client, and Gus never paid her.
I see. But don't travel agents make you sign contracts to prevent this? So she can go to court about it?
I would certainly hope so, but I'm not sure. I'm far from an expert on this sort of thing.
On November 15 2011 07:52 pdd wrote: Not that I want to put this effort down but, just wanted to know what if at the off-chance, Gus suddenly turns up with the money? And then he says that because Amanda has already settled her debts, keeps the money for himself?
It is my understanding that there is no "pocketed money." He spent more than he had available, so there's a debt.
It's been a week since the event and Gus is still missing. Sadly I don't even think he has the money, I just think that he severely misjudged the budget and are now trying to hide without any money at all.
Hopefully there's in place to be able to keep him responsible in the future.
On November 15 2011 07:58 thesideshow wrote: What happens if lets say, the donations exceed the required amount? Not very likely I know, but just curious.
They use the money to pay the other people who Gus owes money to, it says in the OP. It's that Amanda is in the most need of repayment (the other thread said she has to pay the remaining $12k by Jan. 21st or something) or else her company goes under.
On November 15 2011 07:58 thesideshow wrote: What happens if lets say, the donations exceed the required amount? Not very likely I know, but just curious.
They use the money to pay the other people who Gus owes money to, it says in the OP. It's that Amanda is in the most need of repayment (the other thread said she has to pay the remaining $12k by Jan. 21st or something) or else her company goes under.
What if the community is overwhelmingly generous and raises over the $23k debt? Or is it so unlikely that I shouldn't even be asking this? >.<
On November 15 2011 07:58 thesideshow wrote: What happens if lets say, the donations exceed the required amount? Not very likely I know, but just curious.
If there is overage it will go to paying event salaries (casters, talent, staff, etc.) and other event-related expenses
If it goes over the entire amount of debt, I would assume IPL would do something like organize a showmatch with it or something.
i will tune in to support this. however, to play devil's advocate, im not sure how a business can get so screwed over.... they didn't plan for these kind of normal contingencies?
On November 15 2011 07:59 ishyishy wrote: Would be nice to know who Amanda is. I watched the stream for 20 minutes and then turned it off and never turned it back on so I am in the dark here.
It's all explained in the OP....Amanda was the Travel Agent Gus used to book all the players flights to and from the event.
Very noble cause, I just want to make sure, there's absolutely no way Amanda is somehow in on this, right? Although already unlikely, seemingly even more so considering it was said there was no actually pocketed money.
On November 15 2011 07:58 thesideshow wrote: What happens if lets say, the donations exceed the required amount? Not very likely I know, but just curious.
They use the money to pay the other people who Gus owes money to, it says in the OP. It's that Amanda is in the most need of repayment (the other thread said she has to pay the remaining $12k by Jan. 21st or something) or else her company goes under.
What if the community is overwhelmingly generous and raises over the $23k debt? Or is it so unlikely that I shouldn't even be asking this? >.<
In the unlikely event that it does exceed the total debt, I would hope that IGN would a) let us know, b) use it towards something that rewards the community (or rather, the people who donated).
Additionally but separately, I hope that IGN or someone could keep us informed on how Gus is being penalized in this whole affair.
I feel a bit conflicted. It is no doubt a noble gesture from IGN and I really want to help Amanda out.
On the other hand, this is also going to let Gus off the hook and let him disappear quietly, from which he may try to crawl his way up again. I have a feeling that Gus Ledesma had been hoping for this to happen for the past week while keep hiding and delaying payments.
Wow. Just wow. This somehow legitimizes for me all the crap/drama that was happening with the PPSL. I was really holding out hope that Gus would eventually come up with the money...or at least an accounting for where the money was.
Oh I sure would like to hear what that douche from AZK from the other thread is thinking right now. Seeing as he insulted a good portion of the community that's literally paying for the mistakes made by his oh so glorious clan leader. If they are mistakes, for all we know Gus has criminal intentions.
But yeah I better hold off on accusations, I suuuuure wouldn't want to be the one humiliated by the guys who caused this incident to begin with. lol
who's going to be casting tonight? it would be cool if you grabbed some random guys from the office and put them on the mic to see what they are doing.
Whats on the stream is really cool and I like it. Getting one guy to play and have them both talk about it.
lol pain tried to just go stright marine medivac and attack no muraders no problem?
I'll be watching for as long as I can. Things like this just make me sad. Some one really needs to just go find Gus and drag him out from under that rock he's hiding under.
Why are the police not involved in this? That miserable cunt deserves as much jail time as he can get. Regardless, I'll be watching, and I'll try to donate a few $.
Wow, IGN is really doing some good work and helping out the best they can in this difficult situation.
As for Gus, him and his team should be given lifetime bans just like the match-fixing progamers. Give the players on Team AZK an ultimatum: leave the team or go down with this corrupt organization. You cannot just incur several thousands of dollars of debt (on top of blantant misuse of power in running a shady tournament), promise players a non-existent tournament (Hon-slaught), and get away with it.
How terrible, especially after the great (live) event that IPL put on in Atlantic City. I'll definitely help with what I can. I'm forever an IGN fanboy.
On November 15 2011 08:04 Sein wrote: I feel a bit conflicted. It is no doubt a noble gesture from IGN and I really want to help Amanda out.
On the other hand, this is also going to let Gus off the hook and let him disappear quietly, from which he may try to crawl his way up again. I have a feeling that Gus Ledesma had been hoping for this to happen for the past week while keep hiding and delaying payments.
This doesn't let Gus off the hook as it's Amanda and not Gus who is suffering the consequences here. By watching and helping you're helping out Amanda and nothinging at Gus. Even is Gus suddenly appeared it wouldn't change the fact that it's still Amanda suffering for him.
On November 15 2011 08:16 Bagration wrote: Wow, IGN is really doing some good work and helping out the best they can in this difficult situation.
As for Gus, him and his team should be given lifetime bans just like the match-fixing progamers. Give the players on Team AZK an ultimatum: leave the team or go down with this corrupt organization. You cannot just incur several thousands of dollars of debt (on top of blantant misuse of power in running a shady tournament), promise players a non-existent tournament (Hon-slaught), and get away with it.
Don't punish the team...they didn't know anything about it (just manipulated by Gus, you can see that in all of the other topics discussing the situation). Also, most members if not all already left.
I think what he's saying is that Gus doesn't have to come up with $5k anymore (which would be the resulting balance after IGN pays off the remaining $7k they promised) as well as any excess since there's still $11k to go even after Amanda's bill is footed.
Gus should still be held liable for whatever donations collected, we can just donate the cash to a charity or something.
"but it seems like Gus, the organizer of the PPSL, is nowhere to be found and is not owning up to the remaining debt."
What the fuck. I swear i'll stab him if i see him even in broad daylight. Good job, ign. It's just really a shame and quite embarrassing that this shit has to happen.
Post it on Reddit, get it up on the calendar, this needs as much exposure as possible.
Uh, I think this means it starts in 2 hours or so? Not really sure on the time zones. I have a date...might have to set browser to automatically open the stream at that time
I duno if Gus is reading this thread, but if he is, he should just donate all of the money he stole to IPL anonymously and let them deal with the paperwork and the money shuffeling.
It would at least mitigate the damages and allow him to save himself from confrontation.
Obviously not how it should end, but this is probably the most favorable possible situation at this point.
To all those talking about Gus, this isn't so much about him as it is about Amanda. The idea is to help her out so she can avoid jail and her company doesn't have to shut down. We can worry about Gus when he shows up again, but until then there's nothing wrong with taking care of the people he screwed over.
On November 15 2011 08:16 Bagration wrote: Wow, IGN is really doing some good work and helping out the best they can in this difficult situation.
As for Gus, him and his team should be given lifetime bans just like the match-fixing progamers. Give the players on Team AZK an ultimatum: leave the team or go down with this corrupt organization. You cannot just incur several thousands of dollars of debt (on top of blantant misuse of power in running a shady tournament), promise players a non-existent tournament (Hon-slaught), and get away with it.
Don't punish the team...they didn't know anything about it (just manipulated by Gus, you can see that in all of the other topics discussing the situation). Also, most members if not all already left.
The thing is though, some of the team was involved also though.. Just read what they have said in some of the other threads. It is absolutely sickening.
There was some guy from AZK in another thread being completely bad mannered and called the entire teamliquid community a bunch of no-name random scrubs, along with many other things.
I've done my donation as well. Really hope we can rally behind to support her.
While I am fully behind this, I would say that Amanda is very lucky to have an awesome community behind her. I'm sure things like this are a regular occurrence, and unfortunately a "cost of doing business". Not trying to be a hard-ass, but as a business owner myself when my clients don't pay their bills I either sell the debt to collections or take them to small claims court. The claims that she may go to jail and have her business shut down over a small amount ($15k is not much in business dollars) is exaggerated; if presumably she was conducting business correctly she will have Gus' personal information to execute appropriate collection actions.
Like I said, I'm supporting the cause and doing my part, but business owners get screwed out of way more on a daily basis and nobody blinks an eye - it's just business. My surely unpopular two cents for what it's worth.
On November 15 2011 08:04 Sein wrote: I feel a bit conflicted. It is no doubt a noble gesture from IGN and I really want to help Amanda out.
On the other hand, this is also going to let Gus off the hook and let him disappear quietly, from which he may try to crawl his way up again. I have a feeling that Gus Ledesma had been hoping for this to happen for the past week while keep hiding and delaying payments.
This doesn't let Gus off the hook as it's Amanda and not Gus who is suffering the consequences here. By watching and helping you're helping out Amanda and nothinging at Gus. Even is Gus suddenly appeared it wouldn't change the fact that it's still Amanda suffering for him.
i think the problem is that because the debt is in amanda's name, gus is already off the legal hook.
Is what Gus did illegal though? Because it seems like Amanda played it quite risky to begin with. Of course that doesn't make Gus any less disgusting - assuming these accusations are correct.
Shame it's on so late, I won't be able to tune in physically, got an early lecture tomorrow morning Oh well, I can at least help by leaving the stream up while I sleep :D
On November 15 2011 07:52 pdd wrote: Not that I want to put this effort down but, just wanted to know what if at the off-chance, Gus suddenly turns up with the money? And then he says that because Amanda has already settled her debts, keeps the money for himself?
It is my understanding that there is no "pocketed money." He spent more than he had available, so there's a debt.
In that case, what I originally posted is completely wrong. Might want to make that more clear in the OP. Does IGN actually know where all the money went though?
On November 15 2011 08:16 Bagration wrote: Wow, IGN is really doing some good work and helping out the best they can in this difficult situation.
As for Gus, him and his team should be given lifetime bans just like the match-fixing progamers. Give the players on Team AZK an ultimatum: leave the team or go down with this corrupt organization. You cannot just incur several thousands of dollars of debt (on top of blantant misuse of power in running a shady tournament), promise players a non-existent tournament (Hon-slaught), and get away with it.
Don't punish the team...they didn't know anything about it (just manipulated by Gus, you can see that in all of the other topics discussing the situation). Also, most members if not all already left.
The thing is though, some of the team was involved also though.. Just read what they have said in some of the other threads. It is absolutely sickening.
There was some guy from AZK in another thread being completely bad mannered and called the entire teamliquid community a bunch of no-name random scrubs, along with many other things.
Dont worry Amanda. youve got the support of the entire fucking starcraft 2 community behind you!...donated and gona be tuned in to the stream the whole night to generate profit through ads...
Jesus christ gus is such a fucking moron hope he disappears from esports forever what a douche bag feel bad for amanda I can only imagine how stressed she is.
Wow, what a noble cause! Too bad this all happened, hopefully it can be avoided in the future. Anyway I'll be tuning in as soon as I see it up and will donate the last couple dollars in my paypal ;-)
This is a great idea. The money needs to be raised in order to protect an innocent person from the ineptitude of Gus. Although, in the end, Gus should be held accountable. Shouldn't Amanda's travel agency sue gus for breach of contract and/or press charges? Are both Gus and Amanda's travel agency located in the Philippines or is the situation complicated by being international? It seems like there should be some sort of legal recourse that will hold Gus accountable instead of just letting him off the hook by having the community foot his unpaid debt. There is no way he would get away with this if it occurred in the U.S., and I'd imagine the Philippines would have similar laws when dealing with contractual obligations.
A bit conflicted cause I really wanna see Gus pay and this kind of lightens his responsibility so I can't justify myself donating. I mean ffs can't the travel agency just sue/report him to the cops or did they fuck up with no contract? However, since I am heading to bed right now I will at least toss the stream up.
On November 15 2011 07:45 iky43210 wrote: who is Amanda, and why did she sign the bills instead of gus?
Amanda was the Travel Agent Gus used to book all the airfare through, which accounted for almost every single player round-trip, and then got stiffed on the bills. IIRC Travel Agencies get better deals on flights, so they buy the tickets, and then get reimbursed by the client, and Gus never paid her.
This is my understanding too.
Not helping her means bad press for eSports and a potentially devastating outcome for one individual which is attributed to, even if only by association, a StarCraft II event. IGN do have some responsibility here, having lent their prestigeous name would have encouraged her to accept the risk.
Helping her makes a great story for eSports.
Fuck Gus. *Tunes in.*
Major props to not just IGN, but to the players (who I assume are donating their time).
Hi AlexIGN, I think it's nice what you are doing but I have a question:
Reading here around it seems like this Gus guy is the evil mastermind, so why isn't he charged in a court? I mean: people involved should have his personal details, and if he isn't paying people what he owns them there should be enough evidences for anything they want. Shouldn't these guys go to the court instead of relying on internet guys to solve their problem?
Of course I'm not telling that donate is bad or whatever, nor that you are doing something bad <_<
I'd just like to know why things are going in this direction instead to the nearest police station. If anyone else knows the answer I'm curious!
Okay, I literally just told my wife we're not going out to dinner tonight because I gave $10 on this ahhaha. She was pretty mad until I explained what it was for more clearly and of course had to make it up by making her dinner now... Took 1 for the team.
On November 15 2011 08:43 xBillehx wrote: A bit conflicted cause I really wanna see Gus pay and this kind of lightens his responsibility so I can't justify myself donating. I mean ffs can't the travel agency just sue/report him to the cops or did they fuck up with no contract? However, since I am heading to bed right now I will at least toss the stream up.
I feel the same way, but at the end of the day my ten dollars or whatever i put in is to stop a poor girl having her life ruined.
The underlying problem here is lack of ability to actually punish Gus. We need an organisation with power to legally rape this guy. Alas.
I just donated a dollar. I urge everyone else to spare a dollar for her too. She's innocent of that bastard's crime. We need to come together as a community and save one of our own.
On November 15 2011 08:04 Sein wrote: I feel a bit conflicted. It is no doubt a noble gesture from IGN and I really want to help Amanda out.
On the other hand, this is also going to let Gus off the hook and let him disappear quietly, from which he may try to crawl his way up again. I have a feeling that Gus Ledesma had been hoping for this to happen for the past week while keep hiding and delaying payments.
This doesn't let Gus off the hook as it's Amanda and not Gus who is suffering the consequences here. By watching and helping you're helping out Amanda and nothinging at Gus. Even is Gus suddenly appeared it wouldn't change the fact that it's still Amanda suffering for him.
I know, and that is why I have had the stream on for a while now, but what I'm saying is that these two situations below seem very different, at least to me.
1) "Take care of that money right now in any way possible! Either take out a loan or sign some documents that transfers all those debt to under your name. FFS take your responsibility and DO SOMETHING, RIGHT FUCKING NOW!"
2) "The community has cleaned up after this gigantic mess you've created all by yourself, you bastard. Don't show your face around here again."
On November 15 2011 08:47 FlamingTurd wrote: Okay, I literally just told my wife we're not going out to dinner tonight because I gave $10 on this ahhaha. She was pretty mad until I explained what it was for more clearly and of course had to make it up by making her dinner now... Took 1 for the team.
On November 15 2011 08:47 FlamingTurd wrote: Okay, I literally just told my wife we're not going out to dinner tonight because I gave $10 on this ahhaha. She was pretty mad until I explained what it was for more clearly and of course had to make it up by making her dinner now... Took 1 for the team.
Won't be able to warch today but I'll defintely throw in a couple of bucks when I get home. I would hate to be put in the position she has been put into and hope this never happens to anyone again.
Donated! Glad to help out the community, sad that it lets Gus off the hook for some of the money. I hope he gets sued for every penny!
EDIT: Seriously though, IGN has shown their professionalism in amazing ways through this debacle. Everyone should take notes that this is how you do crisis management. And it wasn't even IGN's bad. I think IGN and MLG are miles ahead with dealing with conflicts in the community. ESPORTS is in good hands as long as these organizations are still heading the charge.
On November 15 2011 08:33 fubusama wrote: I've done my donation as well. Really hope we can rally behind to support her.
While I am fully behind this, I would say that Amanda is very lucky to have an awesome community behind her. I'm sure things like this are a regular occurrence, and unfortunately a "cost of doing business". Not trying to be a hard-ass, but as a business owner myself when my clients don't pay their bills I either sell the debt to collections or take them to small claims court. The claims that she may go to jail and have her business shut down over a small amount ($15k is not much in business dollars) is exaggerated; if presumably she was conducting business correctly she will have Gus' personal information to execute appropriate collection actions.
Like I said, I'm supporting the cause and doing my part, but business owners get screwed out of way more on a daily basis and nobody blinks an eye - it's just business. My surely unpopular two cents for what it's worth.
fubusama, I think IGN is no fool too before they start doing this cause. They probably investigated the situation and assessed the gravity of the situation. According to some reports, Gus never really signed any papers which resulted one AZK(now former) AZK member to be "detained" due to non-payments of bills in the Philippines.
Of course, there's the "different country", I dont know if you're from the Philippines but here, estafa charges are taken seriously. People do get detained and businesses really shut down. Despite of being aware of the calculated risks involved people still take certain business decisions for various reasons and in her case, for her love of e-sports.
I'm pretty sure some form of investigation has been going on and people are keen on doing their homework before jumping into something that's "potentially" damaging to the community as a whole.
--
On the side note, the fact that Gus haven't explained anything yet is like asking grass for a starving and dying horse from a man who consumed it all. People do got deadlines and Gus apparently, is still nowhere to be found. I really appreciate people donating to this instead of just running their mouths like they know shit. Obviously, we're not the investigating body and we're not the direct party involved.
Much respect to IGN for doing this. You guys are awesome.
On November 15 2011 08:47 FlamingTurd wrote: Okay, I literally just told my wife we're not going out to dinner tonight because I gave $10 on this ahhaha. She was pretty mad until I explained what it was for more clearly and of course had to make it up by making her dinner now... Took 1 for the team.
if i told my gf i was spending money on another woman rather than her, i wouldnt survive long enough to get the explanation out : l
may gus be beaten to death by the wrath of 500,000 nerds. i truly love all of you at IPL for having such moral conviction to help even when you're not responsible for all the trouble, absolutely amazing <3
Why would a travel agent book all the flights and hotel rooms and pay for it all without receiving any payment? It really sounds like its her own fault she's stuck with this debt, not that she deserves it.
I mean, if any of us were to walk into a travel agency today and tell them plans for our trip, they would not just buy all the tickets and reservations like that. We'd have to pay them first.
I was also conflicted as others have stated with regards to donating, however I feel that the message that will be delivered from the overwhelming support shown from the E-Sports community will be worth it and hence I have donated. I unfortunately won't be able to watch the stream while at work however...
On November 15 2011 09:08 neptunesak wrote: Why doesn't IPL just pay it off and then take Gus to court.
Seems like IPL wants the easy route.. community help for their problems.
It's no more IPL's problem than any of our problems. IPL isn't on the hook for all the event's finances. Not even if Gus disappears. They promised X dollars and paid all of that. Not all of it went to Gus. Some of it will go to the victims of Gusgate. All of it will be paid as promised. That they would go over and above to help the other victims is a testament to their commitment to this community and the growth of ESPORTS. There's only good things to say about IPL for this.
On November 15 2011 09:09 hmunkey wrote: Why would a travel agent book all the flights and hotel rooms and pay for it all without receiving any payment? It really sounds like its her own fault she's stuck with this debt, not that she deserves it.
I mean, if any of us were to walk into a travel agency today and tell them plans for our trip, they would not just buy all the tickets and reservations like that. We'd have to pay them first.
I think there's a different story and IGN is no fool just to believe a tell-tale story of someone to ask for money. If you think IGN are a bunch of guys who doesn't do their homework that is.
The situation is a lot more complicated than it usually appears. And I think they already have their probing team investigating matters before they run a charity cause and ask for donations.
On November 15 2011 09:08 neptunesak wrote: Why doesn't IPL just pay it off and then take Gus to court.
Seems like IPL wants the easy route.. community help for their problems.
Why would IPL pay it off. IPL only owes the rest of the $7k. IPL wouldn't take Gus to court b/c it's not IPL's problem that Gus owes other people money. IPL is just being nice by setting up a charity event to help the victims.
I created a TL account specifically to ask IPL/IGN to take extra steps to help out in this situation, and I think its really cool that they did. Major props to them.
On November 15 2011 08:47 FlamingTurd wrote: Okay, I literally just told my wife we're not going out to dinner tonight because I gave $10 on this ahhaha. She was pretty mad until I explained what it was for more clearly and of course had to make it up by making her dinner now... Took 1 for the team.
You sir, are a fucking boss and an amazing person. Thumbs up to you.
On November 15 2011 09:18 DivinitySC2 wrote: Gosh can someone explain how this situation is going to work? Is Gus really gonna get away with this because it was not under his name?
And of course the community will support Amanda!, I'll donate and watch the streams!
its seems odd that he would be able to get away with something like this. It is pretty much fraud. But from what I understand from the OP Gus has disappeared and screwed over Amanda and everyone else he owes money to.
I will be tuning in for sure thanks for doing this IGN. But i'm suprised that Amanda would just take an IOU for $12,000 in plane tickets on Gus's word that he will repay her.
Although I really have to agree with the concerns of a lot of people here. If the travel agent(Amanda) had agreed to pay for Gus in advance, why don't Amanda have any personal details of Gus to be used for legal settlements. Granted there might have been no contract but surely fraud/scam is a crime in the Philippines.
And I think that IPL definitely has to be somewhat responsible in this. At least they have to match the donation dollar per dollar for this Amanda case in my opinion ( outside of the original 7000 budget because that's for operations).
The reason why this event was so popular and consequently why so many people were willing to up front the money was because it was an IGN qualifier. People involved in it who got scammed probably thought, "Oh its IGN, such a big reputable company, there is probably little chance that I will get screwed" By sanctioning , IPL gave Gus a little bit of extra power to scam people. Of course there is a chance that there are more things IPL already know which are better off not released for public information to protect people.
That said, hopefully our donations will be enough to keep someone from being jailed undeservedly.
Donated. Glad to see you guys organizing this for her. If the SC2 community can bring MKP to the US and pay for day9's college, hopefully we can come together and help fix the mess that fuck Gus created.
On November 15 2011 09:18 DivinitySC2 wrote: Gosh can someone explain how this situation is going to work? Is Gus really gonna get away with this because it was not under his name?
And of course the community will support Amanda!, I'll donate and watch the streams!
its seems odd that he would be able to get away with something like this. It is pretty much fraud. But from what I understand from the OP Gus has disappeared and screwed over Amanda and everyone else he owes money to.
It's not odd that he got away with it. Tons of people get away with fraud. It's just annoying that he did it in a growing community that needs all the support it can get.
May I request of IGN that if adequate funds are donated above and beyond the obligations owed, that some go to a private investigator to track down this scumbag and make sure justice is served?
This is a 3rd world country... I highly doubt their legal system will do Amanda's any justice. And that's how it is over there. If you're not careful you get scam. Amanda got screw because she made some poor decision and probably had some unknown under the table business we don't know about.
On November 15 2011 09:18 kaarotto wrote: pics of the girl?
User was warned for this post
Why I was warned? Can anybody say me what rule I broke?
2. THOU SHALL OBSERVE FORUM ETIQUETTE
Common sense, people, common sense. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. (And if you happen to be into masochism, then you're at the wrong site, anyway.)
This doesn't mean you can't get verbally medieval on someone's ass every once in a while. We don't run the place like a monastery. But, flames are generally discouraged and we expect people to have a damn good reason for resorting to harsh language in the forums. This means gratuitous swearing is a no-no. Generic trolling will get you banned. If you must flame, be smart or creative about it, and make sure the flame was warranted to begin with. Generally, you'll never go wrong by being nice, polite and mature. All just common sense, people.
There are also a number of Rules of Posting in our forums. Take the time to observe and learn them. There are way too many to recite here, but the following are a few important examples:
Tasteless jokes at the expense of someone's race, gender, or sexual orientation are not acceptable. Nobody likes to be called a name.
I will def watch this. Why not show some of the matches that we are all waiting to see, like sen vs nani? I think it would attract more people. Im sure they just dont have replay of those yet being how much of a mess this whole ordeal is.
1) We are up to $1063! You guys are absolutely amazing! Unfortunately we did not have time to setup a donation tracker, but I'll give updates as I can.
2) We are not pursuing legal action because of the legal costs involved as well as the legal complexities involved.
Sadly, I work nights and cannot catch these games. I hope that A) You all keep the thread bumped and growing and B) that someone would run LRs on the games. I'd appreciate it!
Common sense, people, common sense. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. (And if you happen to be into masochism, then you're at the wrong site, anyway.)
This doesn't mean you can't get verbally medieval on someone's ass every once in a while. We don't run the place like a monastery. But, flames are generally discouraged and we expect people to have a damn good reason for resorting to harsh language in the forums. This means gratuitous swearing is a no-no. Generic trolling will get you banned. If you must flame, be smart or creative about it, and make sure the flame was warranted to begin with. Generally, you'll never go wrong by being nice, polite and mature. All just common sense, people.
There are also a number of Rules of Posting in our forums. Take the time to observe and learn them. There are way too many to recite here, but the following are a few important examples:
Tasteless jokes at the expense of someone's race, gender, or sexual orientation are not acceptable. Nobody likes to be called a name.
On November 15 2011 09:42 Alex.IGN wrote: Hey all! Couple updates:
1) We are up to $1063! You guys are absolutely amazing! Unfortunately we did not have time to setup a donation tracker, but I'll give updates as I can.
2) We are not pursuing legal action because of the legal costs involved as well as the legal complexities involved.
Thanks for keeping us updated with this charity....extremely helpful and will definitely watch to help her and esports!!! IGN/IPL is GREAT keep doing wat your doin!!!
On November 15 2011 09:42 Alex.IGN wrote: Hey all! Couple updates:
1) We are up to $1063! You guys are absolutely amazing! Unfortunately we did not have time to setup a donation tracker, but I'll give updates as I can.
2) We are not pursuing legal action because of the legal costs involved as well as the legal complexities involved.
Youre acticng kindly but isnt a bad precedent to be cheated and dont take legal actions or reprisal?
On November 15 2011 09:42 Alex.IGN wrote: Hey all! Couple updates:
1) We are up to $1063! You guys are absolutely amazing! Unfortunately we did not have time to setup a donation tracker, but I'll give updates as I can.
2) We are not pursuing legal action because of the legal costs involved as well as the legal complexities involved.
Youre acticng kindly but isnt a bad precedent to be cheated and dont take legal actions or reprisal?
You shouldn't take legal action until everything has been sorted out and accounted for. Thats a debate for another time.
generalizing here, but spend $25-50,000 in attorney fees for the potential to recover less than $15,000. unlikely that even if you win that gus will be able to pay any judgment.
On November 15 2011 09:42 Alex.IGN wrote: Hey all! Couple updates:
1) We are up to $1063! You guys are absolutely amazing! Unfortunately we did not have time to setup a donation tracker, but I'll give updates as I can.
2) We are not pursuing legal action because of the legal costs involved as well as the legal complexities involved.
Youre acticng kindly but isnt a bad precedent to be cheated and dont take legal actions or reprisal?
It's risk/reward. If it costs you more money to fight the battle than you are likely to recoup in winnings, then it doesn't always make sense to sue. Sad but true. Also, this would be a US company suing a man in the Philippines. IGN might not even have proper standing to sue on Amana/Justin's behalf. International legal battles are complicated due to differences in laws and requirements.
It's likely easier to take those resources and directly recoup the costs of the parties involved. Sure, Gus doesn't get hit, but then the victims are accounted for. Ultimately it's greater utility and it relies on the community to hold Gus responsible for what he did with a permanent blacklist.
On November 15 2011 09:42 Alex.IGN wrote: Hey all! Couple updates:
1) We are up to $1063! You guys are absolutely amazing! Unfortunately we did not have time to setup a donation tracker, but I'll give updates as I can.
2) We are not pursuing legal action because of the legal costs involved as well as the legal complexities involved.
That's great that the community can at least help...
Do we have news about that ? :
"I wish we could just come in on a white horse and right all the wrongs, but we want to share more inside info why that's difficult. Our sponsorship of the event was only $14k, of which we gave Gus 50% before the event. To ensure that the event would be successful, we withheld the remaining $7k. This will not pay for even half of what's been reported he owes. We will work on evaluating where to best allocate the remaining funds."
Will it go to Amanda or the other peoples that were screwed? Or are you guys just keeping it and raising fund instead? : / Since you guys are aiming for 5k from the fund, (5k+7k = 12k) I guess this is going to Amanda?
What about all the other that got screwed?
Gus just won, now. No legal actions mean that he can just keep the money...
On November 15 2011 09:18 kaarotto wrote: pics of the girl?
User was warned for this post
Why I was warned? Can anybody say me what rule I broke?
2. THOU SHALL OBSERVE FORUM ETIQUETTE
Common sense, people, common sense. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. (And if you happen to be into masochism, then you're at the wrong site, anyway.)
This doesn't mean you can't get verbally medieval on someone's ass every once in a while. We don't run the place like a monastery. But, flames are generally discouraged and we expect people to have a damn good reason for resorting to harsh language in the forums. This means gratuitous swearing is a no-no. Generic trolling will get you banned. If you must flame, be smart or creative about it, and make sure the flame was warranted to begin with. Generally, you'll never go wrong by being nice, polite and mature. All just common sense, people.
There are also a number of Rules of Posting in our forums. Take the time to observe and learn them. There are way too many to recite here, but the following are a few important examples:
Tasteless jokes at the expense of someone's race, gender, or sexual orientation are not acceptable. Nobody likes to be called a name.
That, pretty much.
But I like when people ask me for pics
Can you please stop trolling, we are here to help someone who really needs it. I don't know who you are but please leave the thread if you are just going to troll.
On November 15 2011 09:42 Alex.IGN wrote: Hey all! Couple updates:
1) We are up to $1063! You guys are absolutely amazing! Unfortunately we did not have time to setup a donation tracker, but I'll give updates as I can.
2) We are not pursuing legal action because of the legal costs involved as well as the legal complexities involved.
Youre acticng kindly but isnt a bad precedent to be cheated and dont take legal actions or reprisal?
You shouldn't take legal action until everything has been sorted out and accounted for. Thats a debate for another time.
I think it's also a lot more important to be focusing everything right now on helping the people that got screwed before really going after Gus. That guy's career is over, and if he ever shows his face anywhere, the internet is basically going to jump on him.
On November 15 2011 09:44 kaarotto wrote:
But I like when people ask me for pics
I know this is the internet but come on. Stop acting like a 12 year old.
On November 15 2011 09:42 Alex.IGN wrote: Hey all! Couple updates:
1) We are up to $1063! You guys are absolutely amazing! Unfortunately we did not have time to setup a donation tracker, but I'll give updates as I can.
2) We are not pursuing legal action because of the legal costs involved as well as the legal complexities involved.
That's great that the community can at least help...
Do we have news about that ? :
"I wish we could just come in on a white horse and right all the wrongs, but we want to share more inside info why that's difficult. Our sponsorship of the event was only $14k, of which we gave Gus 50% before the event. To ensure that the event would be successful, we withheld the remaining $7k. This will not pay for even half of what's been reported he owes. We will work on evaluating where to best allocate the remaining funds."
Will it go to Amanda or the other peoples that were screwed? Or are you guys just keeping it and raising fund instead? : / Since you guys are aiming for 5k from the fund, (5k+7k = 12k) I guess this is going to Amanda?
What about all the other that got screwed?
Gus just won, now. No legal actions mean that he can just keep the money...
It's says in the OP of this thread that they're using that money to compensate the people who lost money covering for Gus. They're not keeping it to themselves.
It is great to see the community come together like this.
I think it would be good if IGN came out and let the community know what steps are being put in place so this kind of thing doesn't happen again.
I am not sure how travel agencies work, but I usually have to pay up front for tickets before I actually get them. So what exactly went wrong and how can this be avoided in the future ?
On November 15 2011 09:51 dAPhREAk wrote: generalizing here, but spend $25-50,000 in attorney fees for the potential to recover less than $15,000. unlikely that even if you win that gus will be able to pay any judgment.
in what world is this an intelligent decision?
shouldn't ign have somekind of legal insurance so they don't have to foot the bill? my company does.... and we're gonna sue someone for 7k euros, just because we don't like the b****.
IPL is such a class act. Everything they do they do is to not just to better e-sports but to also better everyone involved. I am really hoping that this soon becomes an industry standard because everyone fighting for themselves is good to a degree but I believe that IPL is here to help the entire community, not just IGN.
donated $5, i usually don't really like donating money but this sounds like a terrible situation for amanda and we as a starcraft community should show that we care enough to pick up the broken pieces of a failed attempt at a tournament when they fail, as to encourage more to spring up!
On November 15 2011 09:53 Xalorian wrote: Gus just won, now. No legal actions mean that he can just keep the money...
One can consider that he won, but only for now. Sooner or later, he'll be screwed over too. At least, I imagine a person can't get very far in life manipulating others & treating them without any respect.
On November 15 2011 09:56 lim1017 wrote: TBH whats wrong with putting a face on who were helping?
i didnt watch much of the event, and i have no idea who amanda is. a real picture and a little blurb from her couldnt hurt
I'm guessing the way the first person posted it gave off a negative connotation.
On November 15 2011 09:42 Alex.IGN wrote: Hey all! Couple updates:
1) We are up to $1063! You guys are absolutely amazing! Unfortunately we did not have time to setup a donation tracker, but I'll give updates as I can.
2) We are not pursuing legal action because of the legal costs involved as well as the legal complexities involved.
Youre acticng kindly but isnt a bad precedent to be cheated and dont take legal actions or reprisal?
It doesn't seem IPL has any legal footing to stand on. The legal burden seemingly lies with Amanda at this point, but we really don't know a lot of the details. Did she get Gus to sign a contract? Also, it depends on the laws of the Philippines. Even a verbal contract can be enforced in the U.S. if enough circumstantial evidence exists (i.e. a SC2 tourney being held, bills/receipts for flying people in for the tourney, etc.) In the end, IPL weren't the ones screwed out of money, although it may have tarnished their brand. They agreed to pay a certain amount ($14k) to sponsor the event and [from what I've read] had no dealings with the travel agency, flying people to the event, or booking hotel rooms.
On November 15 2011 09:51 dAPhREAk wrote: generalizing here, but spend $25-50,000 in attorney fees for the potential to recover less than $15,000. unlikely that even if you win that gus will be able to pay any judgment.
in what world is this an intelligent decision?
should ipl have somekind of legal insurance so they don't have to foot the bill? my company does.... and we're gonna sue someone for 7k euros, just because we don't like the b****.
i have heard of legal insurance in the states, but it is rare and usually its a shitty scam to fleece small businesses. large companies usually have lawyers inhouse and don't bother with claims this small unless they have a mass market where it makes sense to go after even smaller consumers (e.g., a cellphone company going after monthly bills, but even in those cases its usually a collections action).
also, why waste the time and resources going after someone so small-time? how are you going to collect if you win a judgment? take his bike away from him?
usually these kinds of collection issues are vetted before companies enter into a contract with unknown people. this was likely not done as the amount of money at stake is small, PI is a small esports community that is growing so not as many well known names, etc.
anyways, legal action is neither prudent or cost-effective. IPL is showing its support by the PR moves they made and this community event to make money for amanda. as much as a cluster fuck that PPSL was, in my mind IPL is actually coming out of this as a hero. brilliant PR tacticians; truly amazing.
This is a great move by IGN though to help Amanda out. I was hoping her situation would have been resolved by now, but hopefully this will clear the debts and she can avoid jail time.
When something goes wrong people should take responsibility. But when no one steps up it falls to the rest of us to remind each other and the entire world that we are a community. Please donate.
On November 15 2011 10:10 Probe1 wrote: When something goes wrong people should take responsibility. But when no one steps up it falls to the rest of us to remind each other and the entire world that we are a community. Please donate.
Ive already donated but i have a doubt, why the deb in flights is 12k and ipl was suppose to pay 7k nobody made a preliminary budget and realize that 7k wasnt enought? idk if gus have to had the whole responsability
On November 15 2011 10:13 kaarotto wrote: Ive already donated but i have a doubt, why the deb in flights is 12k and ipl was suppose to pay 7k nobody made a preliminary budget and realize that 7k wasnt enought? idk if gus have to had the whole responsability
IPL was just a sponsor. they only agreed to $14,000. the rest of the budget was not IPL's responsibility.
On November 15 2011 10:13 kaarotto wrote: Ive already donated but i have a doubt, why the deb in flights is 12k and ipl was suppose to pay 7k nobody made a preliminary budget and realize that 7k wasnt enought? idk if gus have to had the whole responsability
On November 15 2011 10:10 Mordoc wrote: I may seem like an idiot/missing something, but what is the PPSL?
Obviously, they are related to the IPL/IGN, but a google search showed up nothing, and a look at this thread didn't show anything either.
In short, it was an independent SC2 tourney hosted by team AZK/Gus in the Philippines, which IPL/IGN decided to sponsor. The winner would be qualified for IPL4, thus making the PPSL also the IPL4 SEA Qualifier.
On November 15 2011 09:42 Alex.IGN wrote: Hey all! Couple updates:
1) We are up to $1063! You guys are absolutely amazing! Unfortunately we did not have time to setup a donation tracker, but I'll give updates as I can.
2) We are not pursuing legal action because of the legal costs involved as well as the legal complexities involved.
I have to say that I'd hate to see this scumbag get away. I really hope this guy gets what he deserves.
The guy is just retarded and incapable of doing math. Couldn't figure out he couldn't cover all the costs for housing his shady teammates in their comfy hotel rooms?
Even though i am a broke and only have 25$ for the rest of the month (yes rent and food is paid), i gave it all to You/Amanda. Hope everything will have a happy end.
Donated. I hope these efforts are enough. It's nice to see that the bonds people make in this community are often more than superficial, and that being a part of it can be something really meaningful. A big cheers to everyone who takes both their time and money to help out one of our own who was thrown into an awful situation.
On November 15 2011 10:22 Zidane wrote: The guy is just retarded and incapable of doing math. Couldn't figure out he couldn't cover all the costs for housing his shady teammates in their comfy hotel rooms?
No he just stole the money and hide no where to be seen.
On November 15 2011 09:51 dAPhREAk wrote: generalizing here, but spend $25-50,000 in attorney fees for the potential to recover less than $15,000. unlikely that even if you win that gus will be able to pay any judgment.
in what world is this an intelligent decision?
shouldn't ign have somekind of legal insurance so they don't have to foot the bill? my company does.... and we're gonna sue someone for 7k euros, just because we don't like the b****.
Your company is presumably operating within the EU. Aside from the other complexities other people have mentioned, a US company suing someone in the Philippines is a much more entangled process.
On November 15 2011 10:24 Logarythm wrote: I kinda feel like we shouldn't have to clean up after Gus.
Of course we shouldn't have to, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation. Someone has to step up and help, and if not us then who? I won't be holding my breath for this Gus character to show up and save the day.
On November 15 2011 10:32 creamer wrote: Fuck you gus. if i ever see you i'll punch you right in the face. im watching and donating. pathetic move by this asshole! karma wil get him
This is a great move by IGN though to help Amanda out. I was hoping her situation would have been resolved by now, but hopefully this will clear the debts and she can avoid jail time.
Nice explanation of the whole situation. Anyone feel confusing about the story behind this charity event should read this.
On November 15 2011 07:58 thesideshow wrote: What happens if lets say, the donations exceed the required amount? Not very likely I know, but just curious.
Happy to donate. How did that guy rack up so much debt, jesus. I hoped to hear more on this from Gunrun, Torch or Seltzer by now, but oh well. Feel sorry for the all folks who got screwed one way or another.
I'll tune in all night, even though I wont be watching I'll just leave it on in the background. I hope this works out, and nobody works with "Gus" again.
lesson learned IPL. Spring a few bucks before organizing a tournament outside of a developed country on a lawyer to create a shell corporation [IPL Philippines Tournament for example] to organize everything so that if your local partner bones you no individual will be harmed, just a shell.
i just want everyone to consider this. the money you donated could very well be a part of bringing the korean stars to phillippines to participate in this tournament. ^^
I would like a statement from IPL on whether or not they are pressing charges or if they can/can't take legal action. I have the stream open and am + Show Spoiler +
On November 15 2011 10:47 Steelavocado wrote: I would like a statement from IPL on whether or not they are pressing charges or if they can/can't take legal action. I have the stream open and am + Show Spoiler +
WATCHING MOON PWN IT UP!
. <3 IPL
IGN Alex has already said in this thread that they will not pursue charges because of the high legal fees and great complexity in pursuing litigation between the US and Philippines.
I'm tuning in to generate ad revenue, but I'm not getting ads for some reason. I don't have ad blocker. I have no idea why I'm not getting any, but I'm not.
IGN is one of those companies that just keeps proving that they love esports and the community. Keep it up guys and thank y'all for all y'all have done for us thus far. Great content and company. Gogo ADS!
On November 15 2011 10:58 FunnelC4kes wrote: I'm tuning in.
Is there is any way we can help out in bringing this brigand to justice, I'll be there with pitchfork in hand.
i don't care WHAT industry you are in, if you pull that kind of shit you deserve the worst.
As my elders say, "If you attack someone who is not an enemy, you sow the seeds of your own destruction."
Uhmm well right now lets work toward a positive solution first. I think pitchforks and stuff should be placed on the side for abit Thank you for supporting us!
On November 15 2011 11:02 GrimReefer wrote: she owes 12 grand, but if you make over 5 thousand she won't get the overage, why is that?
I assume it proves to the bank or debtor that she is capable of paying back the rest of the money. As such, she'd probably have to pay the rest back with interest or something.
Gaming isn't jsut for fun, gamers are a community. A community is family. You dont screw over family *cough* GUS!......prick.... But when you're family is in trouble, you do what you can to help. Please donate, more than 5 grand would also be immaculate everyone!
Does the progressive total include the Ad revenue? Or is that not possible to calculate until the stream closes up? I have no idea about streaming for money and assume the ad revenue wouldn't actually be that much anyway (relative to the donations coming in), but just curious.
Awesome idea. IPL has just been amazing with everything they have done regarding SC2 and the community. They just seem to be able to do no wrong.
Unfortunately im pretty poor atm =/ But I will be leaving this stream up all night if im here or not, so hopefully I can contribute through ad revenue.
On November 15 2011 11:11 midgettoes wrote: Does the progressive total include the Ad revenue? Or is that not possible to calculate until the stream closes up? I have no idea about streaming for money and assume the ad revenue wouldn't actually be that much anyway (relative to the donations coming in), but just curious.
I thiiiink it doesn't include ad revenue. But I could be mistaken.
On November 15 2011 11:09 Whitewing wrote: Why am I not getting ads during the commercial breaks? I just get a screen saying "Ads in Progress". I want advertisements so I can support Amanda!
-_-
No, I don't have adblock.
Well, some regions just don't get ads. There's not really anything you can do if you don't have adblock or noscript. Sorry.
On November 15 2011 11:09 Whitewing wrote: Why am I not getting ads during the commercial breaks? I just get a screen saying "Ads in Progress". I want advertisements so I can support Amanda!
-_-
No, I don't have adblock.
getting same thing, but then it does this weird thing where it keeps jumping to a screen that says "supported by Samsung," which lasts for like five secs and keeps popping it up, even while painuser and cats are talking. oh wells. hope its helping. i have it muted in the background.
Wow, it's 11/14 (or 11/15) and this still isn't resolved? Can anybody in their right mind still be defending Gus right now? It seemed like he was unnecessarily dragging his feet and he had some accounting irregularities but I can't believe he just dropped off the map with $12,000. That' is insane.
Anyway, giGANTIC props to you guys at IPL for trying to help Amanda out; that is some grade A e-sport citizenship
I'm also curious about Ad revenue, will that be contributing as well? I assume there are plenty of administrative costs to running the stream, but I'm just curious.
I just logged into the account for the first time. I really hope everyone remembers that in addition to supporting amanda (which i did with a 20) that she was not the only person not paid for their services. Lets hope they collect enough to support all that got bent over by gus.
and lets hope a 15k lesson was enough to sting and this wont happen again.
Garethlewin of Twitch.TV announced they will be giving their side of the proceeds from the stream to Amanda as well. He says that info, and the decision, comes from TheGunRun.
During the first IPL I was so skeptical about how IGN is gonna fit into the community I didn't even pay that much attention to IPL2 but from the beginning of IPL3 qualifiers on IGN has done nothing but good all the time in everything they do. They are like the King Midas of eSports everything they touch turns to gold keep up the good work IPL
Also I'd just like to say that some of you guys and your donations are just blowing me away. Props to everyone who donated and/or is tuning in tonight.
On November 15 2011 11:37 SuperYo1000 wrote: Donated $10....virtually like a fast food combo....I think I can sacrifice the 2000 calories for tonight :D
Donating to a good cause AND losing weight. Everyone wins!
Donated $50 and I dont even have a GOMtv Subscription. Where is my Parade? >:l
But Seriously tho, Some people take peoples word at face value and I wish there were more people like this in the world. But too bad there is alot of scum in this world.
On November 15 2011 11:33 rewired wrote: During the first IPL I was so skeptical about how IGN is gonna fit into the community I didn't even pay that much attention to IPL2 but from the beginning of IPL3 qualifiers on IGN has done nothing but good all the time in everything they do. They are like the King Midas of eSports everything they touch turns to gold keep up the good work IPL
its funny how things like that works I totally agree. I was the same way for fxo when they first formed and all of a sudden went were going to korea I said what a joke this will embaress the foriegn scene. then they bought FOU and now are one of the best orginizations in all of sc2.
pretty pathetic that the community has to pay for the PPSLs expenses just to save an innocent person from suffering legal actions. Pretty spineless on the part of Gus to simply run away too.
Dear IGN, Your take on this situation is so inspiring, it makes me have faith in humanity. Not only are you not responsable for this whole thing, but you are also going to donate money and organize an event just to keep someone off the hook. Your effort is commendable and I think this should get way more attention than it has gotten. I'm talking news media. I hope someone can pull some strings to really give you guys some positive media coverage, because what you are doing right now is amazing. Best of luck and thank you for lightening my day, Andres
I just got the best image when I heard the grafidi idea. Them sending someone out to hide at a popular place and waiting until someone starts and just jump out and say heywanttodosomeforuswe'renotcreepyforhideinginthebushwe'relegit.
On the stream chat, I can't believe that I keep seeing messages that say "I'll donate if Amanda has a hot pic," or "I'm not donating, Amanda is just a scammer," and it makes me sad that some people can be so immature about this and insensitive to the fact that this woman could go to jail (in the Philippines, none the less) while they sit safely in their home...
On November 15 2011 08:03 pPingu wrote: I will let my computer on the whole night to get the highest amount of ads possible
Hope enough money will be collected
Your remedy for fraud is more fraud?
if you are not watching for a decent % of the time, that is stealing from companies that pay for ads on the stream
are you fucking serious?
Unless you are going against the rules laid out by the contract or the law laid out by our governments, its not fraud. Commercials, both for TV and for Streaming, are not bound by the requirement for the viewers to actually watch the advertisement. Most people will switch channels or not pay attention to the TV screen for TV ads, why should it be any different for streamers?
On November 15 2011 11:58 jsemmens wrote: On the stream chat, I can't believe that I keep seeing messages that say "I'll donate if Amanda has a hot pic," or "I'm not donating, Amanda is just a scammer," and it makes me sad that some people can be so immature about this and insensitive to the fact that this woman could go to jail (in the Philippines, none the less) while they sit safely in their home...
Donated $20 myself, wish I could spare more!
99% of those comments are just attention seekers, most don't mean it and try to act cool. wish the mod would massban them tough.
Wait so is Gus actually getting away with this? It sounds completely wrong but if it is that easy to steal 15000+ dollars, then can we really blame him? Please someone assure me that Gus will face legal repercussions from this...
On November 15 2011 08:03 pPingu wrote: I will let my computer on the whole night to get the highest amount of ads possible
Hope enough money will be collected
Your remedy for fraud is more fraud?
if you are not watching for a decent % of the time, that is stealing from companies that pay for ads on the stream
are you fucking serious?
Unless you are going against the rules laid out by the contract or the law laid out by our governments, its not fraud. Commercials, both for TV and for Streaming, are not bound by the requirement for the viewers to actually watch the advertisement. Most people will switch channels or not pay attention to the TV screen for TV ads, why should it be any different for streamers?
Stop being so dramatic.
What will happen though is if companies feel like they're not getting returns on their ads they'll stop funding them.
On November 15 2011 12:04 SupLilSon wrote: Wait so is Gus actually getting away with this? It sounds completely wrong but if it is that easy to steal 15000+ dollars, then can we really blame him? Please someone assure me that Gus will face legal repercussions from this...
Nop, he just had the most epic night out w/ tasteless for his retirement party. For all we know, he's watching the stream and laughing his ass off.
On November 15 2011 08:03 pPingu wrote: I will let my computer on the whole night to get the highest amount of ads possible
Hope enough money will be collected
Your remedy for fraud is more fraud?
if you are not watching for a decent % of the time, that is stealing from companies that pay for ads on the stream
are you fucking serious?
Unless you are going against the rules laid out by the contract or the law laid out by our governments, its not fraud. Commercials, both for TV and for Streaming, are not bound by the requirement for the viewers to actually watch the advertisement. Most people will switch channels or not pay attention to the TV screen for TV ads, why should it be any different for streamers?
Stop being so dramatic.
What will happen though is if companies feel like they're not getting returns on their ads they'll stop funding them.
In all honesty, I don't even understand how any ads are even remotely profitable
On November 15 2011 08:03 pPingu wrote: I will let my computer on the whole night to get the highest amount of ads possible
Hope enough money will be collected
Your remedy for fraud is more fraud?
if you are not watching for a decent % of the time, that is stealing from companies that pay for ads on the stream
are you fucking serious?
Unless you are going against the rules laid out by the contract or the law laid out by our governments, its not fraud. Commercials, both for TV and for Streaming, are not bound by the requirement for the viewers to actually watch the advertisement. Most people will switch channels or not pay attention to the TV screen for TV ads, why should it be any different for streamers?
Stop being so dramatic.
Who cares if it doesn't fit the legal definition of fraud. He's making more a moral argument than a legal one - couldn't you tell?
On November 15 2011 08:03 pPingu wrote: I will let my computer on the whole night to get the highest amount of ads possible
Hope enough money will be collected
Your remedy for fraud is more fraud?
if you are not watching for a decent % of the time, that is stealing from companies that pay for ads on the stream
are you fucking serious?
Unless you are going against the rules laid out by the contract or the law laid out by our governments, its not fraud. Commercials, both for TV and for Streaming, are not bound by the requirement for the viewers to actually watch the advertisement. Most people will switch channels or not pay attention to the TV screen for TV ads, why should it be any different for streamers?
Stop being so dramatic.
What will happen though is if companies feel like they're not getting returns on their ads they'll stop funding them.
It doesn't work like that. Stream advertisers will simply incur a premium for this phenomenon, estimated by those that are providing the revenue.
Consider women and men. Firms would first charge women a premium for the risk that they'll become pregnant and waste company resources before simply firing them all! (This assumes unbiased management who are trying to maximize shareholder wealth, without legal constraints on discrimination).
I dont want to sound like a dick or anything, but Amanda is the one that owes this money. Not the community. She is the one that got suckered into fronting money. As a business, you never front money without guarantee in payment upfront. This is how business is run. Let's say this wasn't SC related, she would simply have to suffer the consequence of doing business in this way. Im sorry to say, its just the way it is. Sure, the community will help, because this is the SC community, one of the best in the world. Although I have sympathy for the situation because nobody really deserves to be scammed, it does in fact happen, but people in business should be diligent enough to prevent these things from happening. Im sorry this had to happen to Amanda, but she should have this settled in court and and have the police track Gus down, Sue gus, and then try her best to get her money back that way. GL
If I had a dollar for every time someone failed or lost out on trying to "support the esport community" id have more than enough money to get Amanda a get out of jail free card.
Unfortunately I dont have that kind of money and i'm pretty much sick of all this panhandling nonsense that goes on around the SC2 scene.
"I quit my job in the emergency room to support esports and esports fired me" someone hire me!
"I'm a progamer that made bank in the GSL but I need the community to support me to MLG" uh...what?
"I signed for 23k worth of debt for some guy and now I might go to jail or lose my business" no thanks
I'll leave the stream on but thats it. Charitycraft is getting really old.
On November 15 2011 12:12 Cartel wrote: I dont want to sound like a dick or anything, but Amanda is the one that owes this money. Not the community. She is the one that got suckered into fronting money. As a business, you never front money without guarantee in payment upfront. This is how business is run. Let's say this wasn't SC related, she would simply have to suffer the consequence of doing business in this way. Im sorry to say, its just the way it is. Sure, the community will help, because this is the SC community, one of the best in the world. Although I have sympathy for the situation because nobody really deserves to be scammed, it does in fact happen, but people in business should be diligent enough to prevent these things from happening. Im sorry this had to happen to Amanda, but she should have this settled in court and and have the police track Gus down, Sue gus, and then try her best to get her money back that way. GL
You don't know really know how things work in third world countries work... Canada's way of handling things is very different from the Philippines man. :-S
On November 15 2011 12:12 Cartel wrote: I dont want to sound like a dick or anything, but Amanda is the one that owes this money. Not the community. She is the one that got suckered into fronting money. As a business, you never front money without guarantee in payment upfront. This is how business is run. Let's say this wasn't SC related, she would simply have to suffer the consequence of doing business in this way. Im sorry to say, its just the way it is. Sure, the community will help, because this is the SC community, one of the best in the world. Although I have sympathy for the situation because nobody really deserves to be scammed, it does in fact happen, but people in business should be diligent enough to prevent these things from happening. Im sorry this had to happen to Amanda, but she should have this settled in court and and have the police track Gus down, Sue gus, and then try her best to get her money back that way. GL
No one ever said she didn't make a mistake. ... But no one ever said the community OWES the money. It's a support stream and DONATION button. It's not so easy to just 'sue gas', especially considering the legal infrastructure in the region.
On November 15 2011 12:14 hXc Chris wrote: If I had a dollar for every time someone failed or lost out on trying to "support the esport community" id have more than enough money to get Amanda a get out of jail free card.
Unfortunately I dont have that kind of money and i'm pretty much sick of all this panhandling nonsense that goes on around the SC2 scene.
"I quit my job in the emergency room to support esports and esports fired me" someone hire me!
"I'm a progamer that made bank in the GSL but I need the community to support me to MLG" uh...what?
"I signed for 23k worth of debt for some guy and now I might go to jail or lose my business" no thanks
I'll leave the stream on but thats it. Charitycraft is getting really old.
Community bailout is getting old.
That was the community wanting to see him at MLG. He never asked for the community to sponsor him to go, and he probably didn't want to go before that because it was expensive and had very little profit.
On November 15 2011 12:14 hXc Chris wrote: If I had a dollar for every time someone failed or lost out on trying to "support the esport community" id have more than enough money to get Amanda a get out of jail free card.
Unfortunately I dont have that kind of money and i'm pretty much sick of all this panhandling nonsense that goes on around the SC2 scene.
"I quit my job in the emergency room to support esports and esports fired me" someone hire me!
"I'm a progamer that made bank in the GSL but I need the community to support me to MLG" uh...what?
"I signed for 23k worth of debt for some guy and now I might go to jail or lose my business" no thanks
I'll leave the stream on but thats it. Charitycraft is getting really old.
Community bailout is getting old.
Hey, if you guys think that doing a nice VOLUNTARY thing for someone is bad, then you are entitled to your opinion. However then, you should just keep your mouth shut in this thread, and leave your negativity somewhere else.
On November 15 2011 12:16 bibbaly wrote: I'm sure it has been asked in the thread but what is wrong with pursuing him legally?
It takes ages It costs tons Those 2 reasons in a nutshell.
If the case is won however Gus' name not only will be forever tarnished (it already is) but he will be forced to pay this debt and face possible jail time for FRAUD.
This is not a community issue IMO this is a legal issue that should be pursued. Even if the community pays the debt what happens to Gus?
On November 15 2011 12:16 bibbaly wrote: I'm sure it has been asked in the thread but what is wrong with pursuing him legally?
It takes ages It costs tons Those 2 reasons in a nutshell.
Also, you're not even sure you're going to win. Even if you win, you will have to pay a portion of the amount saved to your lawyers. Also, assuming you win, you don't automatically get money. You need a marshall to get Gus to pay.. If he can't, you have to get some of his belongings, blah blah blah just damn long and costly. You spend much more than you can recover
On November 15 2011 12:12 Cartel wrote: I dont want to sound like a dick or anything, but Amanda is the one that owes this money. Not the community. She is the one that got suckered into fronting money. As a business, you never front money without guarantee in payment upfront. This is how business is run. Let's say this wasn't SC related, she would simply have to suffer the consequence of doing business in this way. Im sorry to say, its just the way it is. Sure, the community will help, because this is the SC community, one of the best in the world. Although I have sympathy for the situation because nobody really deserves to be scammed, it does in fact happen, but people in business should be diligent enough to prevent these things from happening. Im sorry this had to happen to Amanda, but she should have this settled in court and and have the police track Gus down, Sue gus, and then try her best to get her money back that way. GL
I don't need some random guy to ruin my night so I'll make it short: People are different everywhere in the world. Bad things happen. You either feel good by eating a pizza tonight, or feel good by helping a person tonight, your choice.
On November 15 2011 12:14 hXc Chris wrote: If I had a dollar for every time someone failed or lost out on trying to "support the esport community" id have more than enough money to get Amanda a get out of jail free card.
Unfortunately I dont have that kind of money and i'm pretty much sick of all this panhandling nonsense that goes on around the SC2 scene.
"I quit my job in the emergency room to support esports and esports fired me" someone hire me!
"I'm a progamer that made bank in the GSL but I need the community to support me to MLG" uh...what?
"I signed for 23k worth of debt for some guy and now I might go to jail or lose my business" no thanks
I'll leave the stream on but thats it. Charitycraft is getting really old.
Community bailout is getting old.
That was the community wanting to see him at MLG. He never asked for the community to sponsor him to go, and he probably didn't want to go before that because it was expensive and had very little profit.
I understand that. I dont hold anything against MKP. I just find it ridiculous either way that it happened. Not to mention the Disney world vacation that Milkis proposed. Actually I dont know how the whole thing happened other than the Milkis reddit thread but if he propsed the idea then i'm throwing him under the charity case bus.
On November 15 2011 12:16 bibbaly wrote: I'm sure it has been asked in the thread but what is wrong with pursuing him legally?
It takes ages It costs tons Those 2 reasons in a nutshell.
If the case is won however Gus' name not only will be forever tarnished (it already is) but he will be forced to pay this debt and face possible jail time for FRAUD.
This is not a community issue IMO this is a legal issue that should be pursued. Even if the community pays the debt what happens to Gus?
his name is already tarnished in the community. winning a judgment is not the same as collecting on a judgment; people win all the time and never get paid (for example, oj simpson still hasnt paid his debt for the wrongful death suit). IPL cannot do anything to put him in jail; ipl can only bring a CIVIL suit for fraud, not a CRIMINAL suit for fraud. only the police and district attorney (or PI equivalent) can put people in jail.
as for what happens to Gus, he gets shunned from this community, but likely nothing else unless the matter is referred to the police. however, mismanagement of funds does not equal criminal fraud.
On November 15 2011 12:14 hXc Chris wrote: If I had a dollar for every time someone failed or lost out on trying to "support the esport community" id have more than enough money to get Amanda a get out of jail free card.
Unfortunately I dont have that kind of money and i'm pretty much sick of all this panhandling nonsense that goes on around the SC2 scene.
"I quit my job in the emergency room to support esports and esports fired me" someone hire me!
"I'm a progamer that made bank in the GSL but I need the community to support me to MLG" uh...what?
"I signed for 23k worth of debt for some guy and now I might go to jail or lose my business" no thanks
I'll leave the stream on but thats it. Charitycraft is getting really old.
Community bailout is getting old.
That was the community wanting to see him at MLG. He never asked for the community to sponsor him to go, and he probably didn't want to go before that because it was expensive and had very little profit.
I understand that. I dont hold anything against MKP. I just find it ridiculous either way that it happened. Not to mention the Disney world vacation that Milkis proposed. Actually I dont know how the whole thing happened other than the Milkis reddit thread but if he propsed the idea then i'm throwing him under the charity case bus.
I I'm a little confused. What do you have an issue with?
On November 15 2011 12:14 hXc Chris wrote: If I had a dollar for every time someone failed or lost out on trying to "support the esport community" id have more than enough money to get Amanda a get out of jail free card.
Unfortunately I dont have that kind of money and i'm pretty much sick of all this panhandling nonsense that goes on around the SC2 scene.
"I quit my job in the emergency room to support esports and esports fired me" someone hire me!
"I'm a progamer that made bank in the GSL but I need the community to support me to MLG" uh...what?
"I signed for 23k worth of debt for some guy and now I might go to jail or lose my business" no thanks
I'll leave the stream on but thats it. Charitycraft is getting really old.
Community bailout is getting old.
Hey, if you guys think that doing a nice VOLUNTARY thing for someone is bad, then you are entitled to your opinion. However then, you should just keep your mouth shut in this thread, and leave your negativity somewhere else.
Nice I know a lot of panhandlers in every large city in America that loves people like you. Why dont you just go handing out blank checks to do something nice for a bunch of strangers. Go do it or you're failing the esports community!
I see no reason to keep my mouth shut. My opinion negative or not is still valid.
I understand (and actually agree to some degree) that some people don't feel we need to help Amanda. Well, the short answer is: nobody asked you!!! Just f*ck off if you don't want to help her...
On November 15 2011 12:14 hXc Chris wrote: If I had a dollar for every time someone failed or lost out on trying to "support the esport community" id have more than enough money to get Amanda a get out of jail free card.
Unfortunately I dont have that kind of money and i'm pretty much sick of all this panhandling nonsense that goes on around the SC2 scene.
"I quit my job in the emergency room to support esports and esports fired me" someone hire me!
"I'm a progamer that made bank in the GSL but I need the community to support me to MLG" uh...what?
"I signed for 23k worth of debt for some guy and now I might go to jail or lose my business" no thanks
I'll leave the stream on but thats it. Charitycraft is getting really old.
Community bailout is getting old.
That was the community wanting to see him at MLG. He never asked for the community to sponsor him to go, and he probably didn't want to go before that because it was expensive and had very little profit.
I understand that. I dont hold anything against MKP. I just find it ridiculous either way that it happened. Not to mention the Disney world vacation that Milkis proposed. Actually I dont know how the whole thing happened other than the Milkis reddit thread but if he propsed the idea then i'm throwing him under the charity case bus.
I I'm a little confused. What do you have an issue with?
The overwhelming amount of charity cases in the name of "esports"
On November 15 2011 12:14 hXc Chris wrote: If I had a dollar for every time someone failed or lost out on trying to "support the esport community" id have more than enough money to get Amanda a get out of jail free card.
Unfortunately I dont have that kind of money and i'm pretty much sick of all this panhandling nonsense that goes on around the SC2 scene.
"I quit my job in the emergency room to support esports and esports fired me" someone hire me!
"I'm a progamer that made bank in the GSL but I need the community to support me to MLG" uh...what?
"I signed for 23k worth of debt for some guy and now I might go to jail or lose my business" no thanks
I'll leave the stream on but thats it. Charitycraft is getting really old.
Community bailout is getting old.
That was the community wanting to see him at MLG. He never asked for the community to sponsor him to go, and he probably didn't want to go before that because it was expensive and had very little profit.
I understand that. I dont hold anything against MKP. I just find it ridiculous either way that it happened. Not to mention the Disney world vacation that Milkis proposed. Actually I dont know how the whole thing happened other than the Milkis reddit thread but if he propsed the idea then i'm throwing him under the charity case bus.
I I'm a little confused. What do you have an issue with?
The overwhelming amount of charity cases in the name of "esports"
a world with more empathy and charity. yeah, thats a shitty place I don't want to go to in the name of esports. /sarcasm
On November 15 2011 12:16 bibbaly wrote: I'm sure it has been asked in the thread but what is wrong with pursuing him legally?
It takes ages It costs tons Those 2 reasons in a nutshell.
If the case is won however Gus' name not only will be forever tarnished (it already is) but he will be forced to pay this debt and face possible jail time for FRAUD.
This is not a community issue IMO this is a legal issue that should be pursued. Even if the community pays the debt what happens to Gus?
his name is already tarnished in the community. winning a judgment is not the same as collecting on a judgment; people win all the time and never get paid (for example, oj simpson still hasnt paid his debt for the wrongful death suit). IPL cannot do anything to put him in jail; ipl can only bring a CIVIL suit for fraud, not a CRIMINAL suit for fraud. only the police and district attorney (or PI equivalent) can put people in jail.
as for what happens to Gus, he gets shunned from this community, but likely nothing else unless the matter is referred to the police. however, mismanagement of funds does not equal criminal fraud.
sucks, but that is how life works.
You're telling me that IGN, a company that sold for 650,000,000 dollars, can't afford to bail amanda out? You're telling me that IGN doesn't have any conventions for preventing employes from taking off with tens of thousands of dollars?
I'll support the cause because an innocent person's livelihood is at stake but don't expect me to jump on the IGN bandwagon. To me it seems like they messed up hard and for some reason Amanda has to come to the community for help when IGN could have solved all this financial business the first minute...
On November 15 2011 12:14 hXc Chris wrote: If I had a dollar for every time someone failed or lost out on trying to "support the esport community" id have more than enough money to get Amanda a get out of jail free card.
Unfortunately I dont have that kind of money and i'm pretty much sick of all this panhandling nonsense that goes on around the SC2 scene.
"I quit my job in the emergency room to support esports and esports fired me" someone hire me!
"I'm a progamer that made bank in the GSL but I need the community to support me to MLG" uh...what?
"I signed for 23k worth of debt for some guy and now I might go to jail or lose my business" no thanks
I'll leave the stream on but thats it. Charitycraft is getting really old.
Community bailout is getting old.
I agree this. Granted IPL had no way of anticipating this shit was going to happen, it is ultimately their responsibility and those involved to resolve these problem. They are definitely risks involved in planning an event such as this and they made some mistakes/errors in judgement which is reasonable. But there need to be a backup plan, you can't just bailout on the community every time shit doesn't happen the way they were supposed to.
Also I am curious. If IPL and PPSL are profiting from this (even if their revenues are already scaled back by this fiasco), wouldn't it make more sense to pay out of their own pockets and settle for a smaller paycheck instead of dumping this on the community? Of course I'm assuming IPL/PPSL didn't LOSE money from organizing this event.
That being said I'll leave the stream on for tonight.
On November 15 2011 12:16 bibbaly wrote: I'm sure it has been asked in the thread but what is wrong with pursuing him legally?
It takes ages It costs tons Those 2 reasons in a nutshell.
If the case is won however Gus' name not only will be forever tarnished (it already is) but he will be forced to pay this debt and face possible jail time for FRAUD.
This is not a community issue IMO this is a legal issue that should be pursued. Even if the community pays the debt what happens to Gus?
his name is already tarnished in the community. winning a judgment is not the same as collecting on a judgment; people win all the time and never get paid (for example, oj simpson still hasnt paid his debt for the wrongful death suit). IPL cannot do anything to put him in jail; ipl can only bring a CIVIL suit for fraud, not a CRIMINAL suit for fraud. only the police and district attorney (or PI equivalent) can put people in jail.
as for what happens to Gus, he gets shunned from this community, but likely nothing else unless the matter is referred to the police. however, mismanagement of funds does not equal criminal fraud.
sucks, but that is how life works.
You're telling me that IGN, a company that sold for 650,000,000 dollars, can't afford to bail amanda out? You're telling me that IGN doesn't have any conventions for preventing employes from taking off with tens of thousands of dollars?
I'll support the cause because an innocent person's livelihood is at stake but don't expect me to jump on the IGN bandwagon. To me it seems like they messed up hard and for some reason Amanda has to come to the community for help when IGN could have solved all this financial business the first minute...
IPL was just a sponsor. what exactly are you talking about?
I'd understand if it was some guy like thegunrun but Amanda owns a travel agency, and should have liability insurance. (The insurance company keeps you afloat while they use their extended dedicated resources to sue the asses of people like Gus)
In fact I wouldn't be surprised if she does have insurance (don't know a travel agent that doesnt - it'll be stupid to have one person kill your business) and she's pocketing all the donations.
On November 15 2011 12:14 hXc Chris wrote: If I had a dollar for every time someone failed or lost out on trying to "support the esport community" id have more than enough money to get Amanda a get out of jail free card.
Unfortunately I dont have that kind of money and i'm pretty much sick of all this panhandling nonsense that goes on around the SC2 scene.
"I quit my job in the emergency room to support esports and esports fired me" someone hire me!
"I'm a progamer that made bank in the GSL but I need the community to support me to MLG" uh...what?
"I signed for 23k worth of debt for some guy and now I might go to jail or lose my business" no thanks
I'll leave the stream on but thats it. Charitycraft is getting really old.
Community bailout is getting old.
That was the community wanting to see him at MLG. He never asked for the community to sponsor him to go, and he probably didn't want to go before that because it was expensive and had very little profit.
I understand that. I dont hold anything against MKP. I just find it ridiculous either way that it happened. Not to mention the Disney world vacation that Milkis proposed. Actually I dont know how the whole thing happened other than the Milkis reddit thread but if he propsed the idea then i'm throwing him under the charity case bus.
I I'm a little confused. What do you have an issue with?
The overwhelming amount of charity cases in the name of "esports"
I do agree with an increased amount of charity cases in the name of "esports" but few of them were legitimate in my opinion. 1. MKP's donation drive. It was community's idea so we won't list it as a charity. 2. Documentary charities: To be honest, I hated those. People asking for money to travel and do a filming. Tastosis one was cool but after that bunch of random ones popped up, which was a bit alarming. That's where I felt like people started using our community for their own good. 3. Amanda's drive. In my opinion, this one was more about a good person trusting someone, then getting ripped off. And that good person is in trouble. We can help and we will.
On November 15 2011 12:14 hXc Chris wrote: If I had a dollar for every time someone failed or lost out on trying to "support the esport community" id have more than enough money to get Amanda a get out of jail free card.
Unfortunately I dont have that kind of money and i'm pretty much sick of all this panhandling nonsense that goes on around the SC2 scene.
"I quit my job in the emergency room to support esports and esports fired me" someone hire me!
"I'm a progamer that made bank in the GSL but I need the community to support me to MLG" uh...what?
"I signed for 23k worth of debt for some guy and now I might go to jail or lose my business" no thanks
I'll leave the stream on but thats it. Charitycraft is getting really old.
Community bailout is getting old.
That was the community wanting to see him at MLG. He never asked for the community to sponsor him to go, and he probably didn't want to go before that because it was expensive and had very little profit.
I understand that. I dont hold anything against MKP. I just find it ridiculous either way that it happened. Not to mention the Disney world vacation that Milkis proposed. Actually I dont know how the whole thing happened other than the Milkis reddit thread but if he propsed the idea then i'm throwing him under the charity case bus.
I I'm a little confused. What do you have an issue with?
The overwhelming amount of charity cases in the name of "esports"
I do agree with an increased amount of charity cases in the name of "esports" but few of them were legitimate in my opinion. 1. MKP's donation drive. It was community's idea so we won't list it as a charity. 2. Documentary charities: To be honest, I hated those. People asking for money to travel and do a filming. Tastosis one was cool but after that bunch of random ones popped up, which was a bit alarming. That's where I felt like people started using our community for their own good. 3. Amanda's charity drive. In my opinion, this one was more about a good person trusting someone, then getting ripped off. And that good person is in trouble. We can help and we will.
On November 15 2011 12:14 hXc Chris wrote: If I had a dollar for every time someone failed or lost out on trying to "support the esport community" id have more than enough money to get Amanda a get out of jail free card.
Unfortunately I dont have that kind of money and i'm pretty much sick of all this panhandling nonsense that goes on around the SC2 scene.
"I quit my job in the emergency room to support esports and esports fired me" someone hire me!
"I'm a progamer that made bank in the GSL but I need the community to support me to MLG" uh...what?
"I signed for 23k worth of debt for some guy and now I might go to jail or lose my business" no thanks
I'll leave the stream on but thats it. Charitycraft is getting really old.
Community bailout is getting old.
He may have made a chunk of change in the GSL, but its not exactly a good idea financially to spend more than 5 grand for the potential prize pool of 5 grand. Even if you DO win, you are still losing money.
Amanda signed 23k worth of debt to some guy that she believed had the funds and backing of a corporation.
On November 15 2011 12:14 hXc Chris wrote: If I had a dollar for every time someone failed or lost out on trying to "support the esport community" id have more than enough money to get Amanda a get out of jail free card.
Unfortunately I dont have that kind of money and i'm pretty much sick of all this panhandling nonsense that goes on around the SC2 scene.
"I quit my job in the emergency room to support esports and esports fired me" someone hire me!
"I'm a progamer that made bank in the GSL but I need the community to support me to MLG" uh...what?
"I signed for 23k worth of debt for some guy and now I might go to jail or lose my business" no thanks
I'll leave the stream on but thats it. Charitycraft is getting really old.
Community bailout is getting old.
That was the community wanting to see him at MLG. He never asked for the community to sponsor him to go, and he probably didn't want to go before that because it was expensive and had very little profit.
I understand that. I dont hold anything against MKP. I just find it ridiculous either way that it happened. Not to mention the Disney world vacation that Milkis proposed. Actually I dont know how the whole thing happened other than the Milkis reddit thread but if he propsed the idea then i'm throwing him under the charity case bus.
I I'm a little confused. What do you have an issue with?
The overwhelming amount of charity cases in the name of "esports"
I can only think of about 3 or 4 random charity acts like this with relation to esports. Are you going to pay Amandas debt with your $4? I don't think so buddy.
Unless you're also complaining about the Doctors without Borders type events as well?
On November 15 2011 12:14 hXc Chris wrote: If I had a dollar for every time someone failed or lost out on trying to "support the esport community" id have more than enough money to get Amanda a get out of jail free card.
Unfortunately I dont have that kind of money and i'm pretty much sick of all this panhandling nonsense that goes on around the SC2 scene.
"I quit my job in the emergency room to support esports and esports fired me" someone hire me!
"I'm a progamer that made bank in the GSL but I need the community to support me to MLG" uh...what?
"I signed for 23k worth of debt for some guy and now I might go to jail or lose my business" no thanks
I'll leave the stream on but thats it. Charitycraft is getting really old.
Community bailout is getting old.
Hey, if you guys think that doing a nice VOLUNTARY thing for someone is bad, then you are entitled to your opinion. However then, you should just keep your mouth shut in this thread, and leave your negativity somewhere else.
Nice I know a lot of panhandlers in every large city in America that loves people like you. Why dont you just go handing out blank checks to do something nice for a bunch of strangers. Go do it or you're failing the esports community!
I see no reason to keep my mouth shut. My opinion negative or not is still valid.
If is too old people will just stop supporting. Nobody forcing anyone to donate. It is a choice you can decide on your on. Like you leaving the stream is another way of support other then give money. You really don't have to be angry about it.
On November 15 2011 12:16 bibbaly wrote: I'm sure it has been asked in the thread but what is wrong with pursuing him legally?
It takes ages It costs tons Those 2 reasons in a nutshell.
If the case is won however Gus' name not only will be forever tarnished (it already is) but he will be forced to pay this debt and face possible jail time for FRAUD.
This is not a community issue IMO this is a legal issue that should be pursued. Even if the community pays the debt what happens to Gus?
his name is already tarnished in the community. winning a judgment is not the same as collecting on a judgment; people win all the time and never get paid (for example, oj simpson still hasnt paid his debt for the wrongful death suit). IPL cannot do anything to put him in jail; ipl can only bring a CIVIL suit for fraud, not a CRIMINAL suit for fraud. only the police and district attorney (or PI equivalent) can put people in jail.
as for what happens to Gus, he gets shunned from this community, but likely nothing else unless the matter is referred to the police. however, mismanagement of funds does not equal criminal fraud.
sucks, but that is how life works.
You're telling me that IGN, a company that sold for 650,000,000 dollars, can't afford to bail amanda out? You're telling me that IGN doesn't have any conventions for preventing employes from taking off with tens of thousands of dollars?
I'll support the cause because an innocent person's livelihood is at stake but don't expect me to jump on the IGN bandwagon. To me it seems like they messed up hard and for some reason Amanda has to come to the community for help when IGN could have solved all this financial business the first minute...
Well it is IPL in this case, not IGN. Just because IPL is a part of IGN doesn't mean IGN will just throw money at them. IPL needs to be self-sustaining for it to be a good business decision to even have in the first place.
On November 15 2011 12:14 hXc Chris wrote: If I had a dollar for every time someone failed or lost out on trying to "support the esport community" id have more than enough money to get Amanda a get out of jail free card.
Unfortunately I dont have that kind of money and i'm pretty much sick of all this panhandling nonsense that goes on around the SC2 scene.
"I quit my job in the emergency room to support esports and esports fired me" someone hire me!
"I'm a progamer that made bank in the GSL but I need the community to support me to MLG" uh...what?
"I signed for 23k worth of debt for some guy and now I might go to jail or lose my business" no thanks
I'll leave the stream on but thats it. Charitycraft is getting really old.
Community bailout is getting old.
I agree this. Granted IPL had no way of anticipating this shit was going to happen, it is ultimately their responsibility and those involved to resolve these problem. They are definitely risks involved in planning an event such as this and they made some mistakes/errors in judgement which is reasonable. But there need to be a backup plan, you can't just bailout on the community every time shit doesn't happen the way they were supposed to.
Also I am curious. If IPL and PPSL are profiting from this (even if their revenues are already scaled back by this fiasco), wouldn't it make more sense to pay out of their own pockets and settle for a smaller paycheck instead of dumping this on the community? Of course I'm assuming IPL/PPSL didn't LOSE money from organizing this event.
That being said I'll leave the stream on for tonight.
It isn't *ultimately their responsibility*. They just owe $7K and that wouldn't cover the rest of Amanda's incurred debt.
On November 15 2011 12:34 Devolved wrote: I hope if they go over their target that they pay back thegunrun and anyone else who was screwed over.
They said that any extra they make will go towards paying the tournament staff that got shafted. Twitch has been super baller and promised to donate all of their portion of the ad revenue from the stream as well.
We're a kickass community. Everyone involved at every level can come together to focus on a goal. But then, that's what gaming has trained us to do
On November 15 2011 12:16 bibbaly wrote: I'm sure it has been asked in the thread but what is wrong with pursuing him legally?
It takes ages It costs tons Those 2 reasons in a nutshell.
If the case is won however Gus' name not only will be forever tarnished (it already is) but he will be forced to pay this debt and face possible jail time for FRAUD.
This is not a community issue IMO this is a legal issue that should be pursued. Even if the community pays the debt what happens to Gus?
his name is already tarnished in the community. winning a judgment is not the same as collecting on a judgment; people win all the time and never get paid (for example, oj simpson still hasnt paid his debt for the wrongful death suit). IPL cannot do anything to put him in jail; ipl can only bring a CIVIL suit for fraud, not a CRIMINAL suit for fraud. only the police and district attorney (or PI equivalent) can put people in jail.
as for what happens to Gus, he gets shunned from this community, but likely nothing else unless the matter is referred to the police. however, mismanagement of funds does not equal criminal fraud.
sucks, but that is how life works.
You're telling me that IGN, a company that sold for 650,000,000 dollars, can't afford to bail amanda out? You're telling me that IGN doesn't have any conventions for preventing employes from taking off with tens of thousands of dollars?
I'll support the cause because an innocent person's livelihood is at stake but don't expect me to jump on the IGN bandwagon. To me it seems like they messed up hard and for some reason Amanda has to come to the community for help when IGN could have solved all this financial business the first minute...
IPL was just a sponsor. what exactly are you talking about?
Yea, it was their money... and until they clarify more, I'll assume Amanda was their employee or was contracted by them to work for the event. Either way, I find it odd that IGN needs community help to produce these funds. Like I said, I'll support the cause but I'm not going to blindly praise IGN for simply fixing their own mistakes.
On November 15 2011 12:14 hXc Chris wrote: If I had a dollar for every time someone failed or lost out on trying to "support the esport community" id have more than enough money to get Amanda a get out of jail free card.
Unfortunately I dont have that kind of money and i'm pretty much sick of all this panhandling nonsense that goes on around the SC2 scene.
"I quit my job in the emergency room to support esports and esports fired me" someone hire me!
"I'm a progamer that made bank in the GSL but I need the community to support me to MLG" uh...what?
"I signed for 23k worth of debt for some guy and now I might go to jail or lose my business" no thanks
I'll leave the stream on but thats it. Charitycraft is getting really old.
Community bailout is getting old.
Hey, if you guys think that doing a nice VOLUNTARY thing for someone is bad, then you are entitled to your opinion. However then, you should just keep your mouth shut in this thread, and leave your negativity somewhere else.
Nice I know a lot of panhandlers in every large city in America that loves people like you. Why dont you just go handing out blank checks to do something nice for a bunch of strangers. Go do it or you're failing the esports community!
I see no reason to keep my mouth shut. My opinion negative or not is still valid.
So what if we want to give our money?
Is it hurting anyone?
If people want to give, that is great. There is no harm in it, people are being nice and are trying to help someone out in trouble.
And I do give money to beggars on the street if I have any to give.
On November 15 2011 12:16 bibbaly wrote: I'm sure it has been asked in the thread but what is wrong with pursuing him legally?
It takes ages It costs tons Those 2 reasons in a nutshell.
If the case is won however Gus' name not only will be forever tarnished (it already is) but he will be forced to pay this debt and face possible jail time for FRAUD.
This is not a community issue IMO this is a legal issue that should be pursued. Even if the community pays the debt what happens to Gus?
his name is already tarnished in the community. winning a judgment is not the same as collecting on a judgment; people win all the time and never get paid (for example, oj simpson still hasnt paid his debt for the wrongful death suit). IPL cannot do anything to put him in jail; ipl can only bring a CIVIL suit for fraud, not a CRIMINAL suit for fraud. only the police and district attorney (or PI equivalent) can put people in jail.
as for what happens to Gus, he gets shunned from this community, but likely nothing else unless the matter is referred to the police. however, mismanagement of funds does not equal criminal fraud.
sucks, but that is how life works.
You're telling me that IGN, a company that sold for 650,000,000 dollars, can't afford to bail amanda out? You're telling me that IGN doesn't have any conventions for preventing employes from taking off with tens of thousands of dollars?
I'll support the cause because an innocent person's livelihood is at stake but don't expect me to jump on the IGN bandwagon. To me it seems like they messed up hard and for some reason Amanda has to come to the community for help when IGN could have solved all this financial business the first minute...
IPL was just a sponsor. what exactly are you talking about?
Yea, it was their money... and until they clarify more, I'll assume Amanda was their employee or was contracted by them to work for the event. Either way, I find it odd that IGN needs community help to produce these funds. Like I said, I'll support the cause but I'm not going to blindly praise IGN for simply fixing their own mistakes.
Amanda isn't an employee of theirs. The other Gus thread has spelled it all out.
On November 15 2011 12:14 hXc Chris wrote: If I had a dollar for every time someone failed or lost out on trying to "support the esport community" id have more than enough money to get Amanda a get out of jail free card.
Unfortunately I dont have that kind of money and i'm pretty much sick of all this panhandling nonsense that goes on around the SC2 scene.
"I quit my job in the emergency room to support esports and esports fired me" someone hire me!
"I'm a progamer that made bank in the GSL but I need the community to support me to MLG" uh...what?
"I signed for 23k worth of debt for some guy and now I might go to jail or lose my business" no thanks
I'll leave the stream on but thats it. Charitycraft is getting really old.
Community bailout is getting old.
That was the community wanting to see him at MLG. He never asked for the community to sponsor him to go, and he probably didn't want to go before that because it was expensive and had very little profit.
I understand that. I dont hold anything against MKP. I just find it ridiculous either way that it happened. Not to mention the Disney world vacation that Milkis proposed. Actually I dont know how the whole thing happened other than the Milkis reddit thread but if he propsed the idea then i'm throwing him under the charity case bus.
I I'm a little confused. What do you have an issue with?
The overwhelming amount of charity cases in the name of "esports"
Ya man what's with all these fuckin people, helping people purely out of the goodness of their hearts. Shame on them for helping someone in need. How dare these pretentious ass holes help someone that they don't personally know, what kind of a jerk would do something like that, they should be blacklisted. SHAME ON YOU CHARITY GIVERS SHAME.
lmao seriously bro, No one is forcing anyone to do anything. The fact that the community can come together to right a wrong is a beautiful thing. YOU DON'T HAVE TO LIKE IT, and YOU DON'T HAVE TO GIVE! No one is forcing anyone to do anything. Simple fact is without eSports, amanda would be out the money, but eSports enthusiasts feel so strongly about our reputation that they are willing to right what Gus has done wrong. No one here is begging, and I'd bet 99% of people here think this cause is just.
Ps: Gus you better watch your back homie, eSports justice goes both ways, you've got some karma coming.
On November 15 2011 12:14 hXc Chris wrote: If I had a dollar for every time someone failed or lost out on trying to "support the esport community" id have more than enough money to get Amanda a get out of jail free card.
Unfortunately I dont have that kind of money and i'm pretty much sick of all this panhandling nonsense that goes on around the SC2 scene.
"I quit my job in the emergency room to support esports and esports fired me" someone hire me!
"I'm a progamer that made bank in the GSL but I need the community to support me to MLG" uh...what?
"I signed for 23k worth of debt for some guy and now I might go to jail or lose my business" no thanks
I'll leave the stream on but thats it. Charitycraft is getting really old.
Community bailout is getting old.
I agree this. Granted IPL had no way of anticipating this shit was going to happen, it is ultimately their responsibility and those involved to resolve these problem. They are definitely risks involved in planning an event such as this and they made some mistakes/errors in judgement which is reasonable. But there need to be a backup plan, you can't just bailout on the community every time shit doesn't happen the way they were supposed to.
Also I am curious. If IPL and PPSL are profiting from this (even if their revenues are already scaled back by this fiasco), wouldn't it make more sense to pay out of their own pockets and settle for a smaller paycheck instead of dumping this on the community? Of course I'm assuming IPL/PPSL didn't LOSE money from organizing this event.
That being said I'll leave the stream on for tonight.
It isn't *ultimately their responsibility*. They just owe $7K and that wouldn't cover the rest of Amanda's incurred debt.
ultimately their responsibility and those involved to resolve these problem
don't take my words out of context. the point is not whether who owes who money. IPL and PPSL collaborated to create an event that went bad and they're asking the community to help cover for their mistakes. Now the question is, did IGN/PPSL make some poor decisions and errors in judgement that could've otherwise avoided all of this? If so, they should be responsible for this. But the truth is no one knows exactly what the fuck happened which causes people to ask questions because IPL has been very transparent with things before.
This person sums it up pretty well
I can't believe IGN is actually soliciting donations without providing a detailed explanation of what the fuck exactly happened here.
What was the legal nature of IGN's partnership with Gus? How much money was transacted and between whom? Why did IGN allow Gus so much autonomy in organizing and budgeting an event this big? Who exactly is Amanda, where is she based, and why is she liable for the travel charges? Don't travel agents have some kind of standard legal mechanism in place to protect themselves if their client fails to pay?
Without further information, I can only conclude that Amanda was extremely reckless in her dealings with Gus. You cannot assume massive amounts of debt on behalf of someone else unless there's a contract or you've at least carefully vetted them.
If IGN doesn't want Amanda to go to jail, they should pay her bills themselves. It's fucking disingenuous for them to guilt the community like this to make up for their own negligence.
IPL (Alex) are fucking awesome, they didn't need to but they did and they're not receiving enough credit for this. Alex is the antigus.
A bunch of starcrafters have no hearts, it's one thing to just not pay/support Amanda in a time of need but to openly criticise her and dismiss the plea for help is just outright cruel. Fuck you guys, fuck you all to hell.
The most legit 'charity' cause for starcraft so far, we'll see how it goes.
Money makes people greedy. Never trust anyone with money. Especially tens of thousands of dollars. Without solid legal conditions set in place to protect you. There are cunts in the world, even in the starcraft community.
On November 15 2011 12:16 bibbaly wrote: I'm sure it has been asked in the thread but what is wrong with pursuing him legally?
It takes ages It costs tons Those 2 reasons in a nutshell.
If the case is won however Gus' name not only will be forever tarnished (it already is) but he will be forced to pay this debt and face possible jail time for FRAUD.
This is not a community issue IMO this is a legal issue that should be pursued. Even if the community pays the debt what happens to Gus?
his name is already tarnished in the community. winning a judgment is not the same as collecting on a judgment; people win all the time and never get paid (for example, oj simpson still hasnt paid his debt for the wrongful death suit). IPL cannot do anything to put him in jail; ipl can only bring a CIVIL suit for fraud, not a CRIMINAL suit for fraud. only the police and district attorney (or PI equivalent) can put people in jail.
as for what happens to Gus, he gets shunned from this community, but likely nothing else unless the matter is referred to the police. however, mismanagement of funds does not equal criminal fraud.
sucks, but that is how life works.
You're telling me that IGN, a company that sold for 650,000,000 dollars, can't afford to bail amanda out? You're telling me that IGN doesn't have any conventions for preventing employes from taking off with tens of thousands of dollars?
I'll support the cause because an innocent person's livelihood is at stake but don't expect me to jump on the IGN bandwagon. To me it seems like they messed up hard and for some reason Amanda has to come to the community for help when IGN could have solved all this financial business the first minute...
IPL was just a sponsor. what exactly are you talking about?
Yea, it was their money... and until they clarify more, I'll assume Amanda was their employee or was contracted by them to work for the event. Either way, I find it odd that IGN needs community help to produce these funds. Like I said, I'll support the cause but I'm not going to blindly praise IGN for simply fixing their own mistakes.
they have already clarified. have you bothered to read their statements? they were just sponsors of the tournament for a total of $14k. they are doing this charity event to help amanda, not to fix their mistakes. if you are going to assume something, why dont you assume the best in them for putting on a charity event, not assume the worst.
Sheth and White-Ra were casting earlier today, and I wonder if you could get them or any other big names to stream/ cast for this charity event. Sheth and Destiny have casted for charities before (e.g. 24 hour streams) and raised thousands and thousands of dollars for great causes.
@ hXc Chris Someone got screwed over and this requires very little effort to help (dont need to twist my arm to watch sc2 games what is the problem with that. If you dont like it don't support it no one is making you so why do you need to criticize others who choose to do so?
You have a right to an opinion but that doesnt make it "valid" in fact to everyone else your arguement appears unproductive and just well... wrong. You are entitled to your opinion but that doesnt mean anyone wants to here it. There is nothing wrong with charity and i'm glad esports has lots of it, why not harness esports for good.
I will say this isnt charity as much as trying to rectify a loss, She got unjustly burned by the tournament organizer and sending the message that if you get screwed assisting or doing a service for an esport related event you will recieve help fixing it
On November 15 2011 12:14 hXc Chris wrote: If I had a dollar for every time someone failed or lost out on trying to "support the esport community" id have more than enough money to get Amanda a get out of jail free card.
Unfortunately I dont have that kind of money and i'm pretty much sick of all this panhandling nonsense that goes on around the SC2 scene.
"I quit my job in the emergency room to support esports and esports fired me" someone hire me!
"I'm a progamer that made bank in the GSL but I need the community to support me to MLG" uh...what?
"I signed for 23k worth of debt for some guy and now I might go to jail or lose my business" no thanks
I'll leave the stream on but thats it. Charitycraft is getting really old.
Community bailout is getting old.
I agree this. Granted IPL had no way of anticipating this shit was going to happen, it is ultimately their responsibility and those involved to resolve these problem. They are definitely risks involved in planning an event such as this and they made some mistakes/errors in judgement which is reasonable. But there need to be a backup plan, you can't just bailout on the community every time shit doesn't happen the way they were supposed to.
Also I am curious. If IPL and PPSL are profiting from this (even if their revenues are already scaled back by this fiasco), wouldn't it make more sense to pay out of their own pockets and settle for a smaller paycheck instead of dumping this on the community? Of course I'm assuming IPL/PPSL didn't LOSE money from organizing this event.
That being said I'll leave the stream on for tonight.
It isn't *ultimately their responsibility*. They just owe $7K and that wouldn't cover the rest of Amanda's incurred debt.
ultimately their responsibility and those involved to resolve these problem
don't take my words out of context. the point is not whether who owes who money. IPL and PPSL collaborated to create an event that went bad and they're asking the community to help cover for their mistakes. Now the question is, did IGN/PPSL make some poor decisions and errors in judgement that could've otherwise avoided all of this? If so, they should be responsible for this. But the truth is no one knows exactly what the fuck happened which causes people to ask questions because IPL has been very transparent with things before.
I can't believe IGN is actually soliciting donations without providing a detailed explanation of what the fuck exactly happened here.
What was the legal nature of IGN's partnership with Gus? How much money was transacted and between whom? Why did IGN allow Gus so much autonomy in organizing and budgeting an event this big? Who exactly is Amanda, where is she based, and why is she liable for the travel charges? Don't travel agents have some kind of standard legal mechanism in place to protect themselves if their client fails to pay?
Without further information, I can only conclude that Amanda was extremely reckless in her dealings with Gus. You cannot assume massive amounts of debt on behalf of someone else unless there's a contract or you've at least carefully vetted them.
If IGN doesn't want Amanda to go to jail, they should pay her bills themselves. It's fucking disingenuous for them to guilt the community like this to make up for their own negligence.
Do you like, read? Or follow this scene at all? There have been LOADS of explanations. tl:dr since apparently some people don't pay any attention:
PPSL sucked because IGN had very little control
Gus stole a bunch of money and disappeared
The money is under Amanda's name, and without it she could be sued or arrested.
People are helping out of the goodness of their hearts.
goin to turn addblock off to support, really nice initiative this whole Amanda case is a proper example that the internet is not full of hatefull shooter freaks n stuff but people who care for others and theyr community.
On November 15 2011 12:14 hXc Chris wrote: If I had a dollar for every time someone failed or lost out on trying to "support the esport community" id have more than enough money to get Amanda a get out of jail free card.
Unfortunately I dont have that kind of money and i'm pretty much sick of all this panhandling nonsense that goes on around the SC2 scene.
"I quit my job in the emergency room to support esports and esports fired me" someone hire me!
"I'm a progamer that made bank in the GSL but I need the community to support me to MLG" uh...what?
"I signed for 23k worth of debt for some guy and now I might go to jail or lose my business" no thanks
I'll leave the stream on but thats it. Charitycraft is getting really old.
Community bailout is getting old.
I agree this. Granted IPL had no way of anticipating this shit was going to happen, it is ultimately their responsibility and those involved to resolve these problem. They are definitely risks involved in planning an event such as this and they made some mistakes/errors in judgement which is reasonable. But there need to be a backup plan, you can't just bailout on the community every time shit doesn't happen the way they were supposed to.
Also I am curious. If IPL and PPSL are profiting from this (even if their revenues are already scaled back by this fiasco), wouldn't it make more sense to pay out of their own pockets and settle for a smaller paycheck instead of dumping this on the community? Of course I'm assuming IPL/PPSL didn't LOSE money from organizing this event.
That being said I'll leave the stream on for tonight.
It isn't *ultimately their responsibility*. They just owe $7K and that wouldn't cover the rest of Amanda's incurred debt.
ultimately their responsibility and those involved to resolve these problem
don't take my words out of context. the point is not whether who owes who money. IPL and PPSL collaborated to create an event that went bad and they're asking the community to help cover for their mistakes. Now the question is, did IGN/PPSL make some poor decisions and errors in judgement that could've otherwise avoided all of this? If so, they should be responsible for this. But the truth is no one knows exactly what the fuck happened which causes people to ask questions because IPL has been very transparent with things before.
This person sums it up pretty well
I can't believe IGN is actually soliciting donations without providing a detailed explanation of what the fuck exactly happened here.
What was the legal nature of IGN's partnership with Gus? How much money was transacted and between whom? Why did IGN allow Gus so much autonomy in organizing and budgeting an event this big? Who exactly is Amanda, where is she based, and why is she liable for the travel charges? Don't travel agents have some kind of standard legal mechanism in place to protect themselves if their client fails to pay?
Without further information, I can only conclude that Amanda was extremely reckless in her dealings with Gus. You cannot assume massive amounts of debt on behalf of someone else unless there's a contract or you've at least carefully vetted them.
If IGN doesn't want Amanda to go to jail, they should pay her bills themselves. It's fucking disingenuous for them to guilt the community like this to make up for their own negligence.
Do you like, read? Or follow this scene at all? There have been LOADS of explanations. tl:dr since apparently some people don't pay any attention:
PPSL sucked because IGN had very little control
Gus stole a bunch of money and disappeared
The money is under Amanda's name, and without it she could be sued or arrested.
People are helping out of the goodness of their hearts.
I read but do you? those aren't explanations. they're statements of what happened. Maybe you can help address these questions since you seem so knowledgeable about the whole ordeal.
What was the legal nature of IGN's partnership with Gus? How much money was transacted and between whom? Why did IGN allow Gus so much autonomy in organizing and budgeting an event this big? Who exactly is Amanda, where is she based, and why is she liable for the travel charges? Don't travel agents have some kind of standard legal mechanism in place to protect themselves if their client fails to pay?
On November 15 2011 12:14 hXc Chris wrote: If I had a dollar for every time someone failed or lost out on trying to "support the esport community" id have more than enough money to get Amanda a get out of jail free card.
Unfortunately I dont have that kind of money and i'm pretty much sick of all this panhandling nonsense that goes on around the SC2 scene.
"I quit my job in the emergency room to support esports and esports fired me" someone hire me!
"I'm a progamer that made bank in the GSL but I need the community to support me to MLG" uh...what?
"I signed for 23k worth of debt for some guy and now I might go to jail or lose my business" no thanks
I'll leave the stream on but thats it. Charitycraft is getting really old.
Community bailout is getting old.
I agree this. Granted IPL had no way of anticipating this shit was going to happen, it is ultimately their responsibility and those involved to resolve these problem. They are definitely risks involved in planning an event such as this and they made some mistakes/errors in judgement which is reasonable. But there need to be a backup plan, you can't just bailout on the community every time shit doesn't happen the way they were supposed to.
Also I am curious. If IPL and PPSL are profiting from this (even if their revenues are already scaled back by this fiasco), wouldn't it make more sense to pay out of their own pockets and settle for a smaller paycheck instead of dumping this on the community? Of course I'm assuming IPL/PPSL didn't LOSE money from organizing this event.
That being said I'll leave the stream on for tonight.
It isn't *ultimately their responsibility*. They just owe $7K and that wouldn't cover the rest of Amanda's incurred debt.
ultimately their responsibility and those involved to resolve these problem
don't take my words out of context. the point is not whether who owes who money. IPL and PPSL collaborated to create an event that went bad and they're asking the community to help cover for their mistakes. Now the question is, did IGN/PPSL make some poor decisions and errors in judgement that could've otherwise avoided all of this? If so, they should be responsible for this. But the truth is no one knows exactly what the fuck happened which causes people to ask questions because IPL has been very transparent with things before.
I can't believe IGN is actually soliciting donations without providing a detailed explanation of what the fuck exactly happened here.
What was the legal nature of IGN's partnership with Gus? How much money was transacted and between whom? Why did IGN allow Gus so much autonomy in organizing and budgeting an event this big? Who exactly is Amanda, where is she based, and why is she liable for the travel charges? Don't travel agents have some kind of standard legal mechanism in place to protect themselves if their client fails to pay?
Without further information, I can only conclude that Amanda was extremely reckless in her dealings with Gus. You cannot assume massive amounts of debt on behalf of someone else unless there's a contract or you've at least carefully vetted them.
If IGN doesn't want Amanda to go to jail, they should pay her bills themselves. It's fucking disingenuous for them to guilt the community like this to make up for their own negligence.
Read the other threads. IGN's only fuck up was believing Gus wouldn't mismanage this event by this magnitude. Their oversight was simply placing in too much trust in him.
Now praying that the PPSL will turn up and help pay up the amount in full is like hoping for a unicorn to pay you a visit. The least they can do is get the community to help out this way.
IGN has absolutely no obligation to Amanda. She doesn't work for them, period.
Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations?
Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much.
There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves (yes, IGN is capable), then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you.
On November 15 2011 12:41 youngminii wrote: In a nutshell:
IPL (Alex) are fucking awesome, they didn't need to but they did and they're not receiving enough credit for this. Alex is the antigus.
A bunch of starcrafters have no hearts, it's one thing to just not pay/support Amanda in a time of need but to openly criticise her and dismiss the plea for help is just outright cruel. Fuck you guys, fuck you all to hell.
The most legit 'charity' cause for starcraft so far, we'll see how it goes.
Money makes people greedy. Never trust anyone with money. Especially tens of thousands of dollars. Without solid legal conditions set in place to protect you. There are cunts in the world, even in the starcraft community.
This is the absolute most non legit charity drive. Expecting customers to pay the debts of a business, and a seemingly reckless one is ridiculous.
Remember it's Amanda's travel agency that's liable, not her.
Would you mind donating to a charity for McDonald's because one of their suppliers can't pay? No, didn't think so.
On November 15 2011 12:41 youngminii wrote: In a nutshell:
IPL (Alex) are fucking awesome, they didn't need to but they did and they're not receiving enough credit for this. Alex is the antigus.
A bunch of starcrafters have no hearts, it's one thing to just not pay/support Amanda in a time of need but to openly criticise her and dismiss the plea for help is just outright cruel. Fuck you guys, fuck you all to hell.
The most legit 'charity' cause for starcraft so far, we'll see how it goes.
Money makes people greedy. Never trust anyone with money. Especially tens of thousands of dollars. Without solid legal conditions set in place to protect you. There are cunts in the world, even in the starcraft community.
This is the absolute most non legit charity drive. Expecting customers to pay the debts of a business, and a seemingly reckless one is ridiculous.
Remember it's Amanda's travel agency that's liable, not her.
Would you mind donating to a charity for McDonald's because one of their suppliers can't pay? No, didn't think so.
Yeah okay, compare starcraft grass roots to maccas. Good job.
On November 15 2011 12:14 hXc Chris wrote: If I had a dollar for every time someone failed or lost out on trying to "support the esport community" id have more than enough money to get Amanda a get out of jail free card.
Unfortunately I dont have that kind of money and i'm pretty much sick of all this panhandling nonsense that goes on around the SC2 scene.
"I quit my job in the emergency room to support esports and esports fired me" someone hire me!
"I'm a progamer that made bank in the GSL but I need the community to support me to MLG" uh...what?
"I signed for 23k worth of debt for some guy and now I might go to jail or lose my business" no thanks
I'll leave the stream on but thats it. Charitycraft is getting really old.
Community bailout is getting old.
I agree this. Granted IPL had no way of anticipating this shit was going to happen, it is ultimately their responsibility and those involved to resolve these problem. They are definitely risks involved in planning an event such as this and they made some mistakes/errors in judgement which is reasonable. But there need to be a backup plan, you can't just bailout on the community every time shit doesn't happen the way they were supposed to.
Also I am curious. If IPL and PPSL are profiting from this (even if their revenues are already scaled back by this fiasco), wouldn't it make more sense to pay out of their own pockets and settle for a smaller paycheck instead of dumping this on the community? Of course I'm assuming IPL/PPSL didn't LOSE money from organizing this event.
That being said I'll leave the stream on for tonight.
It isn't *ultimately their responsibility*. They just owe $7K and that wouldn't cover the rest of Amanda's incurred debt.
ultimately their responsibility and those involved to resolve these problem
don't take my words out of context. the point is not whether who owes who money. IPL and PPSL collaborated to create an event that went bad and they're asking the community to help cover for their mistakes. Now the question is, did IGN/PPSL make some poor decisions and errors in judgement that could've otherwise avoided all of this? If so, they should be responsible for this. But the truth is no one knows exactly what the fuck happened which causes people to ask questions because IPL has been very transparent with things before.
This person sums it up pretty well
I can't believe IGN is actually soliciting donations without providing a detailed explanation of what the fuck exactly happened here.
What was the legal nature of IGN's partnership with Gus? How much money was transacted and between whom? Why did IGN allow Gus so much autonomy in organizing and budgeting an event this big? Who exactly is Amanda, where is she based, and why is she liable for the travel charges? Don't travel agents have some kind of standard legal mechanism in place to protect themselves if their client fails to pay?
Without further information, I can only conclude that Amanda was extremely reckless in her dealings with Gus. You cannot assume massive amounts of debt on behalf of someone else unless there's a contract or you've at least carefully vetted them.
If IGN doesn't want Amanda to go to jail, they should pay her bills themselves. It's fucking disingenuous for them to guilt the community like this to make up for their own negligence.
Do you like, read? Or follow this scene at all? There have been LOADS of explanations. tl:dr since apparently some people don't pay any attention:
PPSL sucked because IGN had very little control
Gus stole a bunch of money and disappeared
The money is under Amanda's name, and without it she could be sued or arrested.
People are helping out of the goodness of their hearts.
I read but do you? those aren't explanations. they're statements of what happened. Maybe you can help address these questions since you seem so knowledgeable about the whole ordeal.
What was the legal nature of IGN's partnership with Gus? How much money was transacted and between whom? Why did IGN allow Gus so much autonomy in organizing and budgeting an event this big? Who exactly is Amanda, where is she based, and why is she liable for the travel charges? Don't travel agents have some kind of standard legal mechanism in place to protect themselves if their client fails to pay?
The answer to these questions are in various other threads. IGN only sponsored the event, they have no legal obligation to anything else. They are doing this to help, period.
This is the absolute most non legit charity drive. Expecting customers to pay the debts of a business, and a seemingly reckless one is ridiculous.
Remember it's Amanda's travel agency that's liable, not her.
Would you mind donating to a charity for McDonald's because one of their suppliers can't pay? No, didn't think so.
This is a travel agency in a foreign country, Amanda herself is up for being arrested in this scenario.
PPSL was already a planned event, IGN just decided that it would be easier just to piggyback off of the event for their IPL 4 Qualifiers in the region.
Thanks you so much in supporting the cause. i dont think my post can encompass how grateul i am. IGN has informed me that theres enough to cover the cost of flying in everyone to Manila.
To the knights who donated, watched, spread the word
Thank again (ill never forget what the community has done. )
IGN, I'm continually impressed with everything that you do as a whole, and how you have shown how you operate with great integrity. I'll be tuning in, thank you so much!
On November 15 2011 12:14 hXc Chris wrote: If I had a dollar for every time someone failed or lost out on trying to "support the esport community" id have more than enough money to get Amanda a get out of jail free card.
Unfortunately I dont have that kind of money and i'm pretty much sick of all this panhandling nonsense that goes on around the SC2 scene.
"I quit my job in the emergency room to support esports and esports fired me" someone hire me!
"I'm a progamer that made bank in the GSL but I need the community to support me to MLG" uh...what?
"I signed for 23k worth of debt for some guy and now I might go to jail or lose my business" no thanks
I'll leave the stream on but thats it. Charitycraft is getting really old.
Community bailout is getting old.
I agree this. Granted IPL had no way of anticipating this shit was going to happen, it is ultimately their responsibility and those involved to resolve these problem. They are definitely risks involved in planning an event such as this and they made some mistakes/errors in judgement which is reasonable. But there need to be a backup plan, you can't just bailout on the community every time shit doesn't happen the way they were supposed to.
Also I am curious. If IPL and PPSL are profiting from this (even if their revenues are already scaled back by this fiasco), wouldn't it make more sense to pay out of their own pockets and settle for a smaller paycheck instead of dumping this on the community? Of course I'm assuming IPL/PPSL didn't LOSE money from organizing this event.
That being said I'll leave the stream on for tonight.
It isn't *ultimately their responsibility*. They just owe $7K and that wouldn't cover the rest of Amanda's incurred debt.
ultimately their responsibility and those involved to resolve these problem
don't take my words out of context. the point is not whether who owes who money. IPL and PPSL collaborated to create an event that went bad and they're asking the community to help cover for their mistakes. Now the question is, did IGN/PPSL make some poor decisions and errors in judgement that could've otherwise avoided all of this? If so, they should be responsible for this. But the truth is no one knows exactly what the fuck happened which causes people to ask questions because IPL has been very transparent with things before.
This person sums it up pretty well
I can't believe IGN is actually soliciting donations without providing a detailed explanation of what the fuck exactly happened here.
What was the legal nature of IGN's partnership with Gus? How much money was transacted and between whom? Why did IGN allow Gus so much autonomy in organizing and budgeting an event this big? Who exactly is Amanda, where is she based, and why is she liable for the travel charges? Don't travel agents have some kind of standard legal mechanism in place to protect themselves if their client fails to pay?
Without further information, I can only conclude that Amanda was extremely reckless in her dealings with Gus. You cannot assume massive amounts of debt on behalf of someone else unless there's a contract or you've at least carefully vetted them.
If IGN doesn't want Amanda to go to jail, they should pay her bills themselves. It's fucking disingenuous for them to guilt the community like this to make up for their own negligence.
Do you like, read? Or follow this scene at all? There have been LOADS of explanations. tl:dr since apparently some people don't pay any attention:
PPSL sucked because IGN had very little control
Gus stole a bunch of money and disappeared
The money is under Amanda's name, and without it she could be sued or arrested.
People are helping out of the goodness of their hearts.
I read but do you? those aren't explanations. they're statements of what happened. Maybe you can help address these questions since you seem so knowledgeable about the whole ordeal.
What was the legal nature of IGN's partnership with Gus? How much money was transacted and between whom? Why did IGN allow Gus so much autonomy in organizing and budgeting an event this big? Who exactly is Amanda, where is she based, and why is she liable for the travel charges? Don't travel agents have some kind of standard legal mechanism in place to protect themselves if their client fails to pay?
They've stated what the nature of the partnership and how they were involved in the whole thing. They have already stated what they did and what they saw. What do you expect, Gus to show up and provide his side of the story?
Don't believe them? Fine, get out of the thread and stop asking questions that I think has already been answered. You're just like the person who no matter what demands for a person to show his birth certificate.
On November 15 2011 12:52 amanduh wrote: To the community
Thanks you so much in supporting the cause. i dont think my post can encompass how grateul i am. IGN has informed me that theres enough to cover the cost of flying in everyone to Manila.
To the knights who donated, watched, spread the word
Thank again (ill never forget what the community has done. )
Oh yes with much love and gratitude -amanda
Hopefully you learned a very expensive lesson from all this!
On November 15 2011 12:50 SCST wrote: Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations?
Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much.
There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves, then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you.
1. IGN is not required to do anything. It fulfilled its obligation of paying its $14,000. 2. IGN uses its own resources (stream and casters) to create a charity event for amanda. no requirement they do so.
Yep, sounds like greedy capitalism to me. Stop making demands on companies that you have no right asking for.
On November 15 2011 12:50 SCST wrote: Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations?
Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much.
There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves (yes, IGN is capable), then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you.
Dear Everyone Talking About "too much charity in my sc2" and "what is the nature of this esports emergency",
This thread is about the STREAM, not the events that transpired that caused this. This thread is also not about the nature of charity, the legitimacy of charity, IGN's niceness, IGN's contract with Amanda or Gus, Gus' actions, nor askdjf;sdkjf;sdjf
If you want to talk about things not related to the STREAM, please make your own thread so that you can discuss those topics without distraction. And also for clarity because it is confusing having to read all of these tangential conversations not related to MKP vs Whale.
On November 15 2011 12:50 SCST wrote: Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations?
Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much.
There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves (yes, IGN is capable), then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you.
They are. Theyre donating $7000 to her cause.
Not to mention that the IPL (E-Sports portion of IGN) actually is quite small and doesn't have the budget.
On November 15 2011 12:50 SCST wrote: Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations?
Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much.
There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves (yes, IGN is capable), then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you.
They are. Theyre donating $7000 to her cause.
Not to mention that the IPL (E-Sports portion of IGN) actually is quite small and doesn't have the budget.
Not to mention that all of the revenue from tonights stream couldve just been straight profit for themselves instead of for amanda...
On November 15 2011 12:14 hXc Chris wrote: If I had a dollar for every time someone failed or lost out on trying to "support the esport community" id have more than enough money to get Amanda a get out of jail free card.
Unfortunately I dont have that kind of money and i'm pretty much sick of all this panhandling nonsense that goes on around the SC2 scene.
"I quit my job in the emergency room to support esports and esports fired me" someone hire me!
"I'm a progamer that made bank in the GSL but I need the community to support me to MLG" uh...what?
"I signed for 23k worth of debt for some guy and now I might go to jail or lose my business" no thanks
I'll leave the stream on but thats it. Charitycraft is getting really old.
Community bailout is getting old.
I agree this. Granted IPL had no way of anticipating this shit was going to happen, it is ultimately their responsibility and those involved to resolve these problem. They are definitely risks involved in planning an event such as this and they made some mistakes/errors in judgement which is reasonable. But there need to be a backup plan, you can't just bailout on the community every time shit doesn't happen the way they were supposed to.
Also I am curious. If IPL and PPSL are profiting from this (even if their revenues are already scaled back by this fiasco), wouldn't it make more sense to pay out of their own pockets and settle for a smaller paycheck instead of dumping this on the community? Of course I'm assuming IPL/PPSL didn't LOSE money from organizing this event.
That being said I'll leave the stream on for tonight.
It isn't *ultimately their responsibility*. They just owe $7K and that wouldn't cover the rest of Amanda's incurred debt.
ultimately their responsibility and those involved to resolve these problem
don't take my words out of context. the point is not whether who owes who money. IPL and PPSL collaborated to create an event that went bad and they're asking the community to help cover for their mistakes. Now the question is, did IGN/PPSL make some poor decisions and errors in judgement that could've otherwise avoided all of this? If so, they should be responsible for this. But the truth is no one knows exactly what the fuck happened which causes people to ask questions because IPL has been very transparent with things before.
This person sums it up pretty well
I can't believe IGN is actually soliciting donations without providing a detailed explanation of what the fuck exactly happened here.
What was the legal nature of IGN's partnership with Gus? How much money was transacted and between whom? Why did IGN allow Gus so much autonomy in organizing and budgeting an event this big? Who exactly is Amanda, where is she based, and why is she liable for the travel charges? Don't travel agents have some kind of standard legal mechanism in place to protect themselves if their client fails to pay?
Without further information, I can only conclude that Amanda was extremely reckless in her dealings with Gus. You cannot assume massive amounts of debt on behalf of someone else unless there's a contract or you've at least carefully vetted them.
If IGN doesn't want Amanda to go to jail, they should pay her bills themselves. It's fucking disingenuous for them to guilt the community like this to make up for their own negligence.
Do you like, read? Or follow this scene at all? There have been LOADS of explanations. tl:dr since apparently some people don't pay any attention:
PPSL sucked because IGN had very little control
Gus stole a bunch of money and disappeared
The money is under Amanda's name, and without it she could be sued or arrested.
People are helping out of the goodness of their hearts.
I read but do you? those aren't explanations. they're statements of what happened. Maybe you can help address these questions since you seem so knowledgeable about the whole ordeal.
What was the legal nature of IGN's partnership with Gus? How much money was transacted and between whom? Why did IGN allow Gus so much autonomy in organizing and budgeting an event this big? Who exactly is Amanda, where is she based, and why is she liable for the travel charges? Don't travel agents have some kind of standard legal mechanism in place to protect themselves if their client fails to pay?
Allow me to try my best at this:
IGN had no prior partnership with Gus, as far as I am aware. They simply offered to sponsor his tournament and use it as a 'qualifier' for IPL. (1)
IPL payed 7k upfront, with 7k coming at a later stage. This second round of 7k has been withheld in the post-event drama, and is being used to pay off the unpaid staff/expenses.
Back to (1), since IGN was effectively a sponsor for this event they had very little to no say in how the event was run. They trusted Gus (incorrectly, as they have stated), with the responsibility of it all since he seemed to be organising this big event before IGN got behind it. They just wanted to help out a tournament on the other side of the world, that otherwise would get much less exposure.
Amanda (not sure where she is based) runs a travel agency (from my gathering). Either way she put up the 12k for the travel expenses. The issue with trying to chase the 'clients', is that the clients would have been the players flown over. And if she tried to push legal claims all the players could, legally, claim there was no contract signed, or agreement for payment. Which is totally correct. The 'contract' was with Gus, however, from what has been said this was a verbal contract. Not only would this be expensive to try and pursue, but there is a good chance she wouldn't be able to pursue it. Effectively the tickets were given in advance, ie before she recieved payment - another misjudgement of Gus' character.
In fact, IPL is doing more than it has to because originally the $7k was going to go to GUS, but instead they are giving it to Amanda, so they are helping. Plus, IPL is donating advertising revenue (probably several thousand dollars), AND they convinced twitch.tv to donate advertising revenue (another several thousand dollars). I would say that they've done their fair share. (Also, as other have stated, the IPL branch doesn't just have open access to the IGN corporate purse)
Uhh... IPL IS directly helping out Amanda. Like.. they were going to stream these games anyways. And run commercials because thats how making money works. And Thus make money. So they are using money to pay Amanda. All of it. Every penny. Thus the profit they would have made by streaming these games they aren't going to make now. They could have said straight up "we're going to pay off her debt" and then take the money from the stream for themself to (virtually) the same effect.
I personally have informed myself by reading all the appropiate threads. With all the information available to me I feel that I can support this cause and did. If you don't feel like you do have enough information you don't have to, and shouldn't. And you are certainly entitled to share your opinion, but don't be a dick about it.
How does no1 on his team AZK know where he is or where he lives? I mean he has to have an address or parents address. So start the bill collecting or sick the lawyers on his ass.
I really can't tell if people are trolling or really have no idea what is going on.
In my opinion, honestly, I think that a charity drive isn't the best idea, and that proper legal action through formal channels would be a better idea.
That being said I've had the stream open all night, and I'm very happy that the community can get together to help someone who is really in a bind due to one greedy promoter.
Are people seriously complaining about IGN and the community trying to help someone who got screwed? I'm totally dumbfounded that people could actually be saying that the community/IGN/no one should be trying to help this poor woman and the others who got the short end of the stick. No, there is no obligation. Who gives a shit if you think she committed some poor business practice? Sometimes in this world what we need to do is band together to help people. This world has enough pointless strife and malcontents, the last thing we need is bitching about donating to help people. If you don't want to donate, fine. Don't donate and get the fuck out of thread.
I'm actually livid. People like Amanda go out of their way to help out and members of the community suggest we just leave her to rot? Pathetic.
On November 15 2011 12:58 P0ckets wrote: How does no1 on his team AZK know where he is or where he lives? I mean he has to have an address or parents address. So start the bill collecting or sick the lawyers on his ass.
I have been playing games on the internet for like 12 years now, not once have I learned the address of somebody that I played with, even if I was being paid. The most I have known is their name.
On November 15 2011 12:46 bibbaly wrote: Has there been any word at least on IGN's stance on taking legal action?
they said no.
So stupid if that is true. Lets set the standard in ESPORTS by trusting anyone and never pursuing legal matters against scammers and con-men!
Ridiculous.
It might be good principal but with the amount of money that is at stake it isn't really worth it, not to mention how long it would take (legal system can be a bitch). :| They would be going international for law and the cost of pursuing it would far outweigh the amount they are seeking to remedy. Also the money that they are trying to get from the person probably wouldn't exist anyway so it doesn't really serve any purpose.
On November 15 2011 12:50 SCST wrote: Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations?
Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much.
There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves (yes, IGN is capable), then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you.
This is ridiculous. IPL still has budgets from the bigger corporate people of IGN. IPL cannot simply give out free money. They already sponsored the event with $14,000. And you want them to give out free money? LOL You might as well ask why other large organizations aren't just giving out free money to the millions of people that are in need. IGN is just being nice by setting up a charity event. You don't have to donate.
On November 15 2011 12:50 SCST wrote: Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations?
Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much.
There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves (yes, IGN is capable), then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you.
They are. Theyre donating $7000 to her cause.
donating? where does it say that? it seems they just provided the remaining sponsorship dollars they said they were going to pay which was established before the event.
I wish we could just come in on a white horse and right all the wrongs, but we want to share more inside info why that's difficult. Our sponsorship of the event was only $14k, of which we gave Gus 50% before the event. To ensure that the event would be successful, we withheld the remaining $7k. This will not pay for even half of what's been reported he owes. We will work on evaluating where to best allocate the remaining funds.
also i'm not trying to shit on IGN. they've done a good job with past events. I just don't like how they handled this particular situation.
On November 15 2011 12:52 amanduh wrote: To the community
Thanks you so much in supporting the cause. i dont think my post can encompass how grateul i am. IGN has informed me that theres enough to cover the cost of flying in everyone to Manila.
To the knights who donated, watched, spread the word
Thank again (ill never forget what the community has done. )
Oh yes with much love and gratitude -amanda
Glad to hear it
Now, what happens to the extra money? Imho, IPL can keep it.
This is the absolute most non legit charity drive. Expecting customers to pay the debts of a business, and a seemingly reckless one is ridiculous.
Remember it's Amanda's travel agency that's liable, not her.
Would you mind donating to a charity for McDonald's because one of their suppliers can't pay? No, didn't think so.
Exactly.
For example helping out when TLO streams for Doctors without Borders is one thing because you know the charity organization is reputable.
Honestly I feel that if I donated, my money would go towards more fraud and fraudulent organizations.
How do people still not understand this wasn't IPL's responsibilty? They didn't organise the tournament. They didn't leave the bad debt. They sponsored a tournament that went bad and are now trying to help rectify the issues.
It would be like GSkill/LG/Coke/whoever currently is sponsoring GSL, trying to redirect profits to GOM if GSL failed. People need to understand what is actually being done, and where the faults lie, before they make comments like this.
I think everyone is forgetting that the Philippines legal system is broken. That means that pursuing legal action may be impossible (remember that this is a 3rd world country). Not everywhere is as easy to live in as America...
On November 15 2011 12:46 bibbaly wrote: Has there been any word at least on IGN's stance on taking legal action?
they said no.
So stupid if that is true. Lets set the standard in ESPORTS by trusting anyone and never pursuing legal matters against scammers and con-men!
Ridiculous.
maybe you should read the thread and why they arent doing it before forming baseless opinions.
If YOU PERSONALLY got scammed for 24k would you roll over and not pursue?
In what way did he fully scam? Is there proof that he ran off with all of the money? The event ran, even though there were some major hitches, and the deal with amanda wasnt contracted. Legally, there might not be anything to pursue. Yes, he is a jackass that mishandled the event and (in my perfect world) would be held accountable and have justice happen... but in the real world this might not even be possible.
On November 15 2011 12:46 bibbaly wrote: Has there been any word at least on IGN's stance on taking legal action?
they said no.
So stupid if that is true. Lets set the standard in ESPORTS by trusting anyone and never pursuing legal matters against scammers and con-men!
Ridiculous.
maybe you should read the thread and why they arent doing it before forming baseless opinions.
If YOU PERSONALLY got scammed for 24k would you roll over and not pursue?
In what way did he fully scam? Is there proof that he ran off with all of the money? The event ran, even though there were some major hitches, and the deal with amanda wasnt contracted. Legally, there might not be anything to pursue. Yes, he is a jackass that mishandled the event and (in my perfect world) would be held accountable and have justice happen... but in the real world this might not even be possible.
You sir, have no clue what you are talking about nor about the things which you make confident assertions of. Use the "search" bar on the top right of Team liquid, look up PPSL, Gus Ledesma, YoonYJ, Dox and other keywords. Once you've read all the threads and applied some intellect to sorting them out, then you'll see the full story. Until then it's bad to talk trash.
On November 15 2011 12:46 bibbaly wrote: Has there been any word at least on IGN's stance on taking legal action?
they said no.
So stupid if that is true. Lets set the standard in ESPORTS by trusting anyone and never pursuing legal matters against scammers and con-men!
Ridiculous.
maybe you should read the thread and why they arent doing it before forming baseless opinions.
If YOU PERSONALLY got scammed for 24k would you roll over and not pursue?
Here's the issue. Pursuing Gus, by the time you take into account legal fees, is going to cast far far more than the 12k he got off with. It could cost 20-30k+ in legal fees, on a case you may not even get anything back on. International law is very complicated, and there is a good chance Gus could get out of any wrongdoing due to a loophole in a contract. International law contracts actually require very very good lawyers to be foolproof.
So yeah, I would drop it and write a more rigid contract, with more trusted community members in the future. Not worth the expense to maybe possibly if you are lucky make a loss of 10k+.
Also, I think I read somewhere that while there is 12k in bad debt, it may not be that Gus took off with 12k in pocket, but rather he over-budgeted or something? Still unacceptable and irresponsible, especially leaving the debt in someone else's name.
On November 15 2011 12:50 SCST wrote: Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations?
Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much.
There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves (yes, IGN is capable), then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you.
They are. Theyre donating $7000 to her cause.
Corporates are full of smart people who take advantage of those that choose to "see the glass as half full". IGN is going to make >$10,000,000 profit this year. This entire event is a drop in the bucket - a drop . They can donate the rest, they are simply choosing not too in order to save a few bucks. I'm sorry if you don't see that - I wish I didn't either. My experience with companies like these has altered my rose-colored glasses.
Again, not saying Amanda shouldn't receive help, in my opinion she should. However, it should come from IGN. All of it.
There's no legal obligation for IGN to pay the entire balance - that much is clear; but that doesn't mean it isn't the right thing for them to do.
On November 15 2011 12:46 bibbaly wrote: Has there been any word at least on IGN's stance on taking legal action?
they said no.
So stupid if that is true. Lets set the standard in ESPORTS by trusting anyone and never pursuing legal matters against scammers and con-men!
Ridiculous.
maybe you should read the thread and why they arent doing it before forming baseless opinions.
If YOU PERSONALLY got scammed for 24k would you roll over and not pursue?
In what way did he fully scam? Is there proof that he ran off with all of the money? The event ran, even though there were some major hitches, and the deal with amanda wasnt contracted. Legally, there might not be anything to pursue. Yes, he is a jackass that mishandled the event and (in my perfect world) would be held accountable and have justice happen... but in the real world this might not even be possible.
You sir, have no clue what you are talking about nor about the things which you make confident assertions of. Use the "search" bar on the top right of Team liquid, look up PPSL, Gus Ledesma, YoonYJ, Dox and other keywords. Once you've read all the threads and applied some intellect to sorting them out, then you'll see the full story. Until then it's bad to talk trash.
To be fair though, it's been a little confusing whether Gus stole money and ran with it, or just completely underbudgeted the event and ran away when it turned out there wasn't enough money for everything.
Now, Amanda is "bailed out", i actually would like to see a statement from her regarding the background. We all pretty much donated blindly (at least i dont know why that all happened, why it was somehow so easy to screw her over etc) without knowing what she did wrong.
I think that should be the smallest thing to do for a community which just raised thousands of dollars to bail out a complete stranger. The thanksposting was, well, nice - but come on. Am i the only one who thinks "what, all that isnt even worth more than 20 seconds of typing"?
I appreciate Amandas posting, but honestly, .. Well, maybe i expect too much. Although i would like to know for who i just spent money.
On November 15 2011 12:46 bibbaly wrote: Has there been any word at least on IGN's stance on taking legal action?
they said no.
So stupid if that is true. Lets set the standard in ESPORTS by trusting anyone and never pursuing legal matters against scammers and con-men!
Ridiculous.
maybe you should read the thread and why they arent doing it before forming baseless opinions.
If YOU PERSONALLY got scammed for 24k would you roll over and not pursue?
In what way did he fully scam? Is there proof that he ran off with all of the money? The event ran, even though there were some major hitches, and the deal with amanda wasnt contracted. Legally, there might not be anything to pursue. Yes, he is a jackass that mishandled the event and (in my perfect world) would be held accountable and have justice happen... but in the real world this might not even be possible.
Do you not know about the hon tournament, Gus scammed S2 out of their money as well as the players who showed up for the tournament that never was.
On November 15 2011 12:46 bibbaly wrote: Has there been any word at least on IGN's stance on taking legal action?
they said no.
So stupid if that is true. Lets set the standard in ESPORTS by trusting anyone and never pursuing legal matters against scammers and con-men!
Ridiculous.
maybe you should read the thread and why they arent doing it before forming baseless opinions.
If YOU PERSONALLY got scammed for 24k would you roll over and not pursue?
In what way did he fully scam? Is there proof that he ran off with all of the money? The event ran, even though there were some major hitches, and the deal with amanda wasnt contracted. Legally, there might not be anything to pursue. Yes, he is a jackass that mishandled the event and (in my perfect world) would be held accountable and have justice happen... but in the real world this might not even be possible.
You sir, have no clue what you are talking about nor about the things which you make confident assertions of. Use the "search" bar on the top right of Team liquid, look up PPSL, Gus Ledesma, YoonYJ, Dox and other keywords. Once you've read all the threads and applied some intellect to sorting them out, then you'll see the full story. Until then it's bad to talk trash.
I have read the threads. He is a jackass, like I said. But in strictly LEGAL terms, there may not be anything to pursue. Read my past posts, I dislike Gus. I think hes rotten. But, that doesnt change the facts in the eyes of the actual law.
What were his obligations to uphold? YoonYJ attended the event, the event was ran, and that was the end of it. I dont know exactly which expenses were not paid. I dont know if he ran off with money. All I know is that he disappeared and Amanda was left footing the bill, but he was not contracted with Amanda so there is nothing that can be done with that huge chunk of money.
What legal obligations did he not uphold? Do you have this information? No. Therefore, we dont know if there is anything that can be done on a LEGAL basis. Therefore, IGN wont bother to pursue legal action (that and legal fees and such add up).
EDIT:
Do you not know about the hon tournament, Gus scammed S2 out of their money as well as the players who showed up for the tournament that never was.
Last I heard, S2 postponed the event but gus didnt tell the players that it was postponed. I havent seen an official statement from S2 though.
Ugh honestly I'm not happy with the end result for Gus. Sure he probably gets banned from eSports for life. But seriously so what? It's not like he's going to lose something that mattered to him, seeing his attitude towards it.
I mean I'm glad that the person with the biggest risk in the entire matter has been helped out, but Gus needs to fucking pay for what he did. The debts were a way to hold him liable but now that they're going to disappear without him having to pay a single cent... eh...
Theres been alot of flaming and hate and like... Well i dont have an actual statement from Gus or as a team... I just want to help fix whatever wrongs have been made as i am not the only one who got hit by it. As stated in the beginning, exceeded amount from the mininum $5000 i will need to cover the travel expense will have to be subdivided to other people as well. I have no intent of grabbing more money than what is due to me.
I will be updating IGN directly on what happens from Manila.
On November 15 2011 12:46 bibbaly wrote: Has there been any word at least on IGN's stance on taking legal action?
they said no.
So stupid if that is true. Lets set the standard in ESPORTS by trusting anyone and never pursuing legal matters against scammers and con-men!
Ridiculous.
maybe you should read the thread and why they arent doing it before forming baseless opinions.
If YOU PERSONALLY got scammed for 24k would you roll over and not pursue?
In what way did he fully scam? Is there proof that he ran off with all of the money? The event ran, even though there were some major hitches, and the deal with amanda wasnt contracted. Legally, there might not be anything to pursue. Yes, he is a jackass that mishandled the event and (in my perfect world) would be held accountable and have justice happen... but in the real world this might not even be possible.
Do you not know about the hon tournament, Gus scammed S2 out of their money as well as the players who showed up for the tournament that never was.
On November 15 2011 12:46 bibbaly wrote: Has there been any word at least on IGN's stance on taking legal action?
they said no.
So stupid if that is true. Lets set the standard in ESPORTS by trusting anyone and never pursuing legal matters against scammers and con-men!
Ridiculous.
maybe you should read the thread and why they arent doing it before forming baseless opinions.
If YOU PERSONALLY got scammed for 24k would you roll over and not pursue?
if i PERSONALLY got scammed for 24k, i wouldn't spend 50k to get that money back. ever heard the saying dont throw good money after bad?
Bad example I admit but an organization depends upon its name being good and being a name that people wouldn't think to scam.
agreed with the last point, but i think IPL is making sure its name is clean and tidy through its press releases and this charity event. i imagine they will also be vetting tournament organizers a little more carefully in the future.
On November 15 2011 12:46 bibbaly wrote: Has there been any word at least on IGN's stance on taking legal action?
they said no.
So stupid if that is true. Lets set the standard in ESPORTS by trusting anyone and never pursuing legal matters against scammers and con-men!
Ridiculous.
maybe you should read the thread and why they arent doing it before forming baseless opinions.
If YOU PERSONALLY got scammed for 24k would you roll over and not pursue?
In what way did he fully scam? Is there proof that he ran off with all of the money? The event ran, even though there were some major hitches, and the deal with amanda wasnt contracted. Legally, there might not be anything to pursue. Yes, he is a jackass that mishandled the event and (in my perfect world) would be held accountable and have justice happen... but in the real world this might not even be possible.
Do you not know about the hon tournament, Gus scammed S2 out of their money as well as the players who showed up for the tournament that never was.
On November 15 2011 12:46 bibbaly wrote: Has there been any word at least on IGN's stance on taking legal action?
they said no.
So stupid if that is true. Lets set the standard in ESPORTS by trusting anyone and never pursuing legal matters against scammers and con-men!
Ridiculous.
maybe you should read the thread and why they arent doing it before forming baseless opinions.
If YOU PERSONALLY got scammed for 24k would you roll over and not pursue?
if i PERSONALLY got scammed for 24k, i wouldn't spend 50k to get that money back. ever heard the saying dont throw good money after bad?
Bad example I admit but an organization depends upon its name being good and being a name that people wouldn't think to scam.
The HoN tournament has been rescheduled according to S2 games - again if you read more about this first you would know that.
The organisation has a bloody good name. The only 'fault' was trusting someone too much. It won't happen again. There will be more research done on the tournament beforehand, as well as a more rigid contract agreement I imagine. Also, as was said before, there is doubt as to whether Gus actually 'scammed' the money in the sense he took it and ran or just underbudgeted (and ran...).
Just had a question for anyone in the Philippines. Is it common practice for travel agencies to front people thousands of dollars with no legal means to collect said money or insurance to cover ? It just seems if that is how business is done over there that there would be a ton of people getting ripped off all the time. How could anyone stay in business there ?
Has anyone verified that this was the actual amount owed ? There is no travel company name,contract language,receipts for flights ect. posted. just a persons first name and a dollar amount owed.
Stream is open ! just waiting for a little more explanation before donating,
On November 15 2011 12:50 SCST wrote: Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations?
Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much.
There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves (yes, IGN is capable), then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you.
This is ridiculous. IPL still has budgets from the bigger corporate people of IGN. IPL cannot simply give out free money. They already sponsored the event with $14,000. And you want them to give out free money? LOL You might as well ask why other large organizations aren't just giving out free money to the millions of people that are in need. IGN is just being nice by setting up a charity event. You don't have to donate.
Free money? That's what IGN is asking for from the community. Yet they have tons of money and the ability to donate. Some companies do donate lots of money to charity - though they are few are far between. It comes down to the individuals within the company - how strong are their convictions? How important is the charity in their opinion? Never in my life have I seen or worked for a company that has had the means to support a charity, but chooses to beg other people to support it instead.
It's ridiculous to argue on behalf of wealthy organization or person, trying to make an excuse for said person/organization as to why they should not share, and why others (people who may be less fortunate but more generous), should!
On November 15 2011 12:58 P0ckets wrote: How does no1 on his team AZK know where he is or where he lives? I mean he has to have an address or parents address. So start the bill collecting or sick the lawyers on his ass.
I have been playing games on the internet for like 12 years now, not once have I learned the address of somebody that I played with, even if I was being paid. The most I have known is their name.
Most guys I play games with on a regular basis, I haven't met them all in person but we know where each other lives from basic curiosity or us sending each other old games/extra pc parts.
On November 15 2011 12:46 bibbaly wrote: Has there been any word at least on IGN's stance on taking legal action?
they said no.
So stupid if that is true. Lets set the standard in ESPORTS by trusting anyone and never pursuing legal matters against scammers and con-men!
Ridiculous.
maybe you should read the thread and why they arent doing it before forming baseless opinions.
If YOU PERSONALLY got scammed for 24k would you roll over and not pursue?
In what way did he fully scam? Is there proof that he ran off with all of the money? The event ran, even though there were some major hitches, and the deal with amanda wasnt contracted. Legally, there might not be anything to pursue. Yes, he is a jackass that mishandled the event and (in my perfect world) would be held accountable and have justice happen... but in the real world this might not even be possible.
You sir, have no clue what you are talking about nor about the things which you make confident assertions of. Use the "search" bar on the top right of Team liquid, look up PPSL, Gus Ledesma, YoonYJ, Dox and other keywords. Once you've read all the threads and applied some intellect to sorting them out, then you'll see the full story. Until then it's bad to talk trash.
I have read the threads. He is a jackass, like I said. But in strictly LEGAL terms, there may not be anything to pursue. Read my past posts, I dislike Gus. I think hes rotten. But, that doesnt change the facts in the eyes of the actual law.
What were his obligations to uphold? YoonYJ attended the event, the event was ran, and that was the end of it. I dont know exactly which expenses were not paid. I dont know if he ran off with money. All I know is that he disappeared and Amanda was left footing the bill, but he was not contracted with Amanda so there is nothing that can be done with that huge chunk of money.
What legal obligations did he not uphold? Do you have this information? No. Therefore, we dont know if there is anything that can be done on a LEGAL basis. Therefore, IGN wont bother to pursue legal action (that and legal fees and such add up).
Do you not know about the hon tournament, Gus scammed S2 out of their money as well as the players who showed up for the tournament that never was.
Last I heard, S2 postponed the event but gus didnt tell the players that it was postponed. I havent seen an official statement from S2 though.
Interesting you raise the whole Legal thing up. I don't see many tournaments getting players to sign for things. WCG in the past at the Starcraft Broodwar events at least, have made players sign a statement immediately at the conclusion of every match, demonstrating that both parties agreed on who won and who lost. I'm sure they made players sign other things as well. How is E-sports being done atm? The online cups? aTn.Cloud's post about how it takes anywhere between 3months~2years to pay out tournament prizes?
Esports looks like an amateur business, which I'm sure people want to change very soon.
Just had a question for anyone in the Philippines. Is it common practice for travel agencies to front people thousands of dollars with no legal means to collect said money or insurance to cover ? It just seems if that is how business is done over there that there would be a ton of people getting ripped off all the time. How could anyone stay in business there ?
Has anyone verified that this was the actual amount owed ? There is no travel company name,contract language,receipts for flights ect. posted. just a persons first name and a dollar amount owed.
Stream is open ! just waiting for a little more explanation before donating,
Amanda was paid several thousand in a down payment, and gus gave the impression that further payments would not be an issue given the people backing the event.
EDIT: This is from what I remember, may not actually be true.
On November 15 2011 12:59 Vindicate wrote: Are people seriously complaining about IGN and the community trying to help someone who got screwed? I'm totally dumbfounded that people could actually be saying that the community/IGN/no one should be trying to help this poor woman and the others who got the short end of the stick. No, there is no obligation. Who gives a shit if you think she committed some poor business practice? Sometimes in this world what we need to do is band together to help people. This world has enough pointless strife and malcontents, the last thing we need is bitching about donating to help people. If you don't want to donate, fine. Don't donate and get the fuck out of thread.
I'm actually livid. People like Amanda go out of their way to help out and members of the community suggest we just leave her to rot? Pathetic.
Seeing the generosity of others reminds us of our own failings. I can't afford to donate atm and it kinda makes me feel bad. Props for everyone who does though.
I'm sorry to say this as a half-Filipino/American, but my family has nothing but headaches when it comes to dealing with Filipino's and money (even with family). We have had our own problems, in particular my parent's owned a sports bar in the Philippines and had to fire even my aunt for stealing food, as well as my mom's best friend from childhood stealing money from the business. We tried to prosecute her to no avail, dealing with the law there is certainly no easy task.
It's just from the time I've spent there people are so... back-handed for the most part. Of course, there are plenty of good people, but it seems money is rotten to the core there. Even with family...
On November 15 2011 12:50 SCST wrote: Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations?
Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much.
There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves (yes, IGN is capable), then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you.
They are. Theyre donating $7000 to her cause.
Corporates are full of smart people who take advantage of those that choose to "see the glass as half full". IGN is going to make >$10,000,000 profit this year. This entire event is a drop in the bucket - a drop . They can donate the rest, they are simply choosing not too in order to save a few bucks. I'm sorry if you don't see that - I wish I didn't either. My experience with companies like these has altered my rose-colored glasses.
Again, not saying Amanda shouldn't receive help, in my opinion she should. However, it should come from IGN. All of it.
There's no legal obligation for IGN to pay the entire balance - that much is clear; but that doesn't mean it isn't the right thing for them to do.
I think that's really faulty logic. Just because a company can afford to give away X dollars for any particular cause doesn't A) mean it's good business practice, B) create some moral or legal obligation to do so, or C) mean it's ok to hold the corporation financially accountable simply because they are the party in best position to be. Being successful in business doesn't mean that suddenly they are subject to rules or obligations that less successful people are not, barring tax brackets and the like. The question that arises under your idea is at what point has a corporation met its success-based obligation? 10% of their profit? Why not 20%, if they make so much money? Who gets to decide where the money goes and how much of it? If we penalize a company for being successful we discourage good business practice and encourage cheap tricks like writing off assets, shifting income, and other practices like that. Besides, if IGN can afford to hand out money, why give it to one person? Surely there are entire organizations that can be saved, hundreds of people with that much money? Under your logic corporations are responsible for great numbers of people, just because they can be. I don't think that's good practice but I see your point. I respectfully disagree with your stance. EDIT for grammar.
On November 15 2011 12:50 SCST wrote: Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations?
Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much.
There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves (yes, IGN is capable), then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you.
They are. Theyre donating $7000 to her cause.
Corporates are full of smart people who take advantage of those that choose to "see the glass as half full". IGN is going to make >$10,000,000 profit this year. This entire event is a drop in the bucket - a drop . They can donate the rest, they are simply choosing not too in order to save a few bucks. I'm sorry if you don't see that - I wish I didn't either. My experience with companies like these has altered my rose-colored glasses.
Again, not saying Amanda shouldn't receive help, in my opinion she should. However, it should come from IGN. All of it.
There's no legal obligation for IGN to pay the entire balance - that much is clear; but that doesn't mean it isn't the right thing for them to do.
Cute. Prepare for the revelation when you hit puberty let alone understands about how the world works.
Your lack of understanding here is atrocious, you're basically spitting in the face of any large business that attempts to set-up charity events
On November 15 2011 12:50 SCST wrote: Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations?
Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much.
There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves, then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you.
1. IGN is not required to do anything. It fulfilled its obligation of paying its $14,000. 2. IGN uses its own resources (stream and casters) to create a charity event for amanda. no requirement they do so.
Yep, sounds like greedy capitalism to me. Stop making demands on companies that you have no right asking for.
1. It's not about obligation, it's about the fact that IGN is clearly making a moral stand by driving the charity, but is caught red-handed by not just taking care of the problem themselves when they do have the means to do it.
2. IGN is uses their resources to help Amanda "partially", rather than just taking care of the problem which they could.
I find the psychology being used here fascinating. Not only does IGN win community support by distancing themselves from the problems at the event, they appear to be the "good" guy even though they are selfishly asking the community to cough up (what is to IGN) the equivalent of a drop-in-the-bucket of profits. They could pay the whole thing, they chose not to. My argument is that simple.
On November 15 2011 12:50 SCST wrote: Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations?
Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much.
There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves (yes, IGN is capable), then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you.
This is ridiculous. IPL still has budgets from the bigger corporate people of IGN. IPL cannot simply give out free money. They already sponsored the event with $14,000. And you want them to give out free money? LOL You might as well ask why other large organizations aren't just giving out free money to the millions of people that are in need. IGN is just being nice by setting up a charity event. You don't have to donate.
Free money? That's what IGN is asking for from the community. Yet they have tons of money and the ability to donate. Some companies do donate lots of money to charity - though they are few are far between. It comes down to the individuals within the company - how strong are their convictions? How important is the charity in their opinion? Never in my life have I seen or worked for a company that has had the means to support a charity, but chooses to beg other people to support it instead.
It's ridiculous to argue on behalf of wealthy organization or person, trying to make an excuse for said person/organization as to why they should not share, and why others (people who may be less fortunate but more generous), should!
As far as I know from following the whole debacle, IPL had never interacted with Amanda prior to this issue. No one working for the IPL had ever interacted with her. Before this charity event was organized, pretty much no one were connecting Amanda's problems and the IPL's sponsorship in any way. So why do they suddenly have a moral obligation to do anything now? If they hadn't started this thread, no one would be criticizing the IPL for anything, and focused their anger at Gus. In fact, they'd probably have been praised for allocating the remaining money to Amanda instead of spreading it out across all the different creditors who remain unpaid. But because they decided to try and get her sufficient money to stay out of jail by using their brand name, stream channel, and stream revenue tonight, they get criticized for not donating everything owed? The IPL has a responsibility to maximize income to their mother-company IGN, and even if the people running the IPL would want to donate all the money, it's unlikely they'd be able to.
The simple fact is that I don't know how Amanda gets by in life, let alone runs a business. It's incredibly naive to go on the hook for that much money without something in writing.
IPL really needs to make things right. Ting screwed up big time with this decision. IGN should be looking at his job, too. I hope people are looking at how colossally screwed up it is that a bunch of people made unprofessional decisions to reach this point.
And now they're asking for the community to bail them out. I love being nice, I might even donate a buck or two because of how fucked up this whole thing is, but let's make sure people get their heads on straight in the future.
On November 15 2011 12:50 SCST wrote: Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations?
Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much.
There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves, then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you.
1. IGN is not required to do anything. It fulfilled its obligation of paying its $14,000. 2. IGN uses its own resources (stream and casters) to create a charity event for amanda. no requirement they do so.
Yep, sounds like greedy capitalism to me. Stop making demands on companies that you have no right asking for.
1. It's not about obligation, it's about the fact that IGN is clearly making a moral stand by driving the charity, but is caught red-handed by not just taking care of the problem themselves when they do have the means to do it.
2. IGN is uses their resources to help Amanda "partially", rather than just taking care of the problem which they could.
I find the psychology being used here fascinating. Not only does IGN win community support by distancing themselves from the problems at the event, they appear to be the "good" guy even though they are selfishly asking the community to cough up (what is to IGN) the equivalent of a drop-in-the-bucket of profits. They could pay the whole thing, they chose not to. My argument is that simple.
You have some amazing insight into the exact relationship between IPL and IGN. I mean, it's pretty amazing that you know IPL has so much money behind them when they were running IPL 1 and 2 off zero money from IGN. Man, you must have some serious inside information.
On November 15 2011 12:50 SCST wrote: Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations?
Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much.
There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves, then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you.
1. IGN is not required to do anything. It fulfilled its obligation of paying its $14,000. 2. IGN uses its own resources (stream and casters) to create a charity event for amanda. no requirement they do so.
Yep, sounds like greedy capitalism to me. Stop making demands on companies that you have no right asking for.
1. It's not about obligation, it's about the fact that IGN is clearly making a moral stand by driving the charity, but is caught red-handed by not just taking care of the problem themselves when they do have the means to do it.
2. IGN is uses their resources to help Amanda "partially", rather than just taking care of the problem which they could.
I find the psychology being used here fascinating. Not only does IGN win community support by distancing themselves from the problems at the event, they appear to be the "good" guy even though they are selfishly asking the community to cough up (what is to IGN) the equivalent of a drop-in-the-bucket of profits. They could pay the whole thing, they chose not to. My argument is that simple.
you dont happen to be occupying oakland or wall street while you are writing these posts are you?
On November 15 2011 12:50 SCST wrote: Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations?
Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much.
There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves, then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you.
1. IGN is not required to do anything. It fulfilled its obligation of paying its $14,000. 2. IGN uses its own resources (stream and casters) to create a charity event for amanda. no requirement they do so.
Yep, sounds like greedy capitalism to me. Stop making demands on companies that you have no right asking for.
1. It's not about obligation, it's about the fact that IGN is clearly making a moral stand by driving the charity, but is caught red-handed by not just taking care of the problem themselves when they do have the means to do it.
2. IGN is uses their resources to help Amanda "partially", rather than just taking care of the problem which they could.
I find the psychology being used here fascinating. Not only does IGN win community support by distancing themselves from the problems at the event, they appear to be the "good" guy even though they are selfishly asking the community to cough up (what is to IGN) the equivalent of a drop-in-the-bucket of profits. They could pay the whole thing, they chose not to. My argument is that simple.
The top 1% could solve world hunger, they choose not to. Problem argument? They can do it, they have no obligation to. If GSL failed you wouldn't see LG/GSkill covering the costs, since they would have provided the sponsorship money and that's all they need to do. If someone in the organisation feels bad and gets company approval to run this charity they shouldn't get criticised, or additional funding. IGN is doing a good thing, beyond their obligations.
On November 15 2011 13:29 SimDawg wrote: The simple fact is that I don't know how Amanda gets by in life, let alone runs a business. It's incredibly naive to go on the hook for that much money without something in writing.
IPL really needs to make things right. Ting screwed up big time with this decision. IGN should be looking at his job, too. I hope people are looking at how colossally screwed up it is that a bunch of people made unprofessional decisions to reach this point.
And now they're asking for the community to bail them out. I love being nice, I might even donate a buck or two because of how fucked up this whole thing is, but let's make sure people get their heads on straight in the future.
E-sports needs lawyers Hi Jason Lake / the other Jason (Complexity's bosses are all lawyers according to InControl)
On November 15 2011 12:50 SCST wrote: Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations?
Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much.
There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves (yes, IGN is capable), then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you.
This is ridiculous. IPL still has budgets from the bigger corporate people of IGN. IPL cannot simply give out free money. They already sponsored the event with $14,000. And you want them to give out free money? LOL You might as well ask why other large organizations aren't just giving out free money to the millions of people that are in need. IGN is just being nice by setting up a charity event. You don't have to donate.
Free money? That's what IGN is asking for from the community. Yet they have tons of money and the ability to donate. Some companies do donate lots of money to charity - though they are few are far between. It comes down to the individuals within the company - how strong are their convictions? How important is the charity in their opinion? Never in my life have I seen or worked for a company that has had the means to support a charity, but chooses to beg other people to support it instead.
It's ridiculous to argue on behalf of wealthy organization or person, trying to make an excuse for said person/organization as to why they should not share, and why others (people who may be less fortunate but more generous), should!
As far as I know from following the whole debacle, IPL had never interacted with Amanda prior to this issue. No one working for the IPL had ever interacted with her. Before this charity event was organized, pretty much no one were connecting Amanda's problems and the IPL's sponsorship in any way. So why do they suddenly have a moral obligation to do anything now? If they hadn't started this thread, no one would be criticizing the IPL for anything, and focused their anger at Gus. In fact, they'd probably have been praised for allocating the remianing money to Amanda instead of spreading it out across all the different creditors who remain unpaid. But because they decided to try and get her sufficient money to stay out of jail by using their brand name, stream channel, and stream revenue tonight, they get criticized for not donating everything owed? The IPL has a responsibility to maximize income to their mother-company IGN, and even if the people running the IPL would want to donate all the money, it's unlikely they'd be able to.
This. Plus you do realize that if iGN bailed Amanda out for everything, and realized that the cost of unexpected shit that turns up isn't worth the investment - publicity ratio, then IGN would just pull the plug on the IPL. We wouldn't want that to happen, would we?
On November 15 2011 12:50 SCST wrote: Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations?
Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much.
There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves, then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you.
1. IGN is not required to do anything. It fulfilled its obligation of paying its $14,000. 2. IGN uses its own resources (stream and casters) to create a charity event for amanda. no requirement they do so.
Yep, sounds like greedy capitalism to me. Stop making demands on companies that you have no right asking for.
1. It's not about obligation, it's about the fact that IGN is clearly making a moral stand by driving the charity, but is caught red-handed by not just taking care of the problem themselves when they do have the means to do it.
2. IGN is uses their resources to help Amanda "partially", rather than just taking care of the problem which they could.
I find the psychology being used here fascinating. Not only does IGN win community support by distancing themselves from the problems at the event, they appear to be the "good" guy even though they are selfishly asking the community to cough up (what is to IGN) the equivalent of a drop-in-the-bucket of profits. They could pay the whole thing, they chose not to. My argument is that simple.
That's fine, but the argument relies on corporations assuming poor business practice. Think of it this way: according to your logic, a company can pay for something charitable, so it should. This progresses logically up to the break even point where a company makes 0 net profit. The company then has no money to reinvest in the company, so no new products or advancements come out. Company then folds because it can't meet the demand of the industry in the face of the companies who didn't donate/screw themselves. Your model drives all charitable organizations out of business.. it's an unsustainable model.
On November 15 2011 12:50 SCST wrote: Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations?
Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much.
There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves (yes, IGN is capable), then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you.
This is ridiculous. IPL still has budgets from the bigger corporate people of IGN. IPL cannot simply give out free money. They already sponsored the event with $14,000. And you want them to give out free money? LOL You might as well ask why other large organizations aren't just giving out free money to the millions of people that are in need. IGN is just being nice by setting up a charity event. You don't have to donate.
Free money? That's what IGN is asking for from the community. Yet they have tons of money and the ability to donate. Some companies do donate lots of money to charity - though they are few are far between. It comes down to the individuals within the company - how strong are their convictions? How important is the charity in their opinion? Never in my life have I seen or worked for a company that has had the means to support a charity, but chooses to beg other people to support it instead.
It's ridiculous to argue on behalf of wealthy organization or person, trying to make an excuse for said person/organization as to why they should not share, and why others (people who may be less fortunate but more generous), should!
You seem to be under the impression that the whole IGN is behind this donation drive, while in fact it is the eSports division of IGN. I was under the impression from the IPL3 interview with their headhoncho that he had the initiative to start the eSports division on his own, and was trying to prove to his boss that it can be successful. After IPL1 and 2 with minimum funding, he finally succeeded in getting them to fund a bigger event in IPL3. Point is, IGN is a business and they are not going to just be handing out money just for the fun of it.
Now imagine you are in the eSports division, and this debacle happened. You want to pay for Amanda debt but all you have is the 7000$ you didnt give to PPSL. What do you do? Do you go to corporate and ask your boss, hey this woman I know is being scammed and I feel it is our duty to fork out the rest of the money to pay for her expenses, even though its really not our fault. Your boss is going to laugh at your face. Of course you can pay the rest of the money using your own division budget but that would cut into future tournament expenses and prize pools.
So what do you do? You hold a fundraising. Seems like the appropriate reaction to me.
kespa is not the answer. it solves one problem and makes everything else twice as hard, because now you have to deal with them no matter how small your project is. they stifle innovation.
keep unions out of esports. there are laws in place you know. you can use them. if real life laws can't stop people like gus, do you REALLY think an arbitrary organization's rules will?
Well in the philippines, as long as every paperwork is in order, it can be put to trial for failure to meet with obligation. Might have to start with arbitration first but there should be no stopping it from getting traction.
The problem with how stuff is done here in the philippines is most avoid the paper trail to avoid paying taxes. Contracts are not notarized and just appear as a "formal" agreement between 2 parties. It is true that once signed, it should be honored, but if its not notarized, and not witnessed, then it should not be "legally" binding in certain cases.
Trust is what most work on here in the philippines. While I believe SnixSniPe's family's experience shows a side of the how it can happen, it is possible to work harmoniously.
But there really is a risk in it. A friend of mine once said, "if you plan on doing business, don't do it with friends or family as you run the risk of losing the relationship once money is involved." Which is for the most part true because agruements/disagreements will happen once money is involved as both have a vested interest.
I still believe Gus just mismanaged everything and didn't account for the total cash that was/would be available to the PPSL Event and just ran with it.
I still expect a statement from Team AZK regarding the matter as it is still them who is still involved and a party to the "organizing body" who has still not made any official statement. One post here said they would rather work on it on the sidelines and clear the mess up.
If amanduh is the real Amanda then again, an official statement would be nice. And if she is in touch with any of the leaders of Team AZK then I hope she can tell them to release an official statement. They are still trying to dodge the issue, at least to me which is still wrong.
Just had a question for anyone in the Philippines. Is it common practice for travel agencies to front people thousands of dollars with no legal means to collect said money or insurance to cover ? It just seems if that is how business is done over there that there would be a ton of people getting ripped off all the time. How could anyone stay in business there ?
Has anyone verified that this was the actual amount owed ? There is no travel company name,contract language,receipts for flights ect. posted. just a persons first name and a dollar amount owed.
Stream is open ! just waiting for a little more explanation before donating,
Gus could have signed a contract saying he would pay for the travel...but as the OP stated he is currently nowhere to be found. It's entirely possible that he signed a contract/made an agreement and then didn't honor his end, leaving other parties screwed.
Gunrun has mentioned the amount, and I'm pretty sure a company like IGN would do their diligence on Amanda and the amount owed before coming up with the event.
On November 15 2011 12:50 SCST wrote: Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations?
Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much.
There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves (yes, IGN is capable), then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you.
I think this is a good point. Maybe it wasn't IGN personally screwing over Amanda, but they were directly involved with the organizers of the tournament and were using the tournament for their own gain (advertising of IGN/IPL and it was used as a qualifier that they themselves would get out of having to organize and run). The same can not be said for the thousands of SC2ers that are now asked to bail out people that got screwed over in a business deal that IGN was a part of.
IGN may not be directly at fault or liable for losses incurred by the parties involved, but their name was attached to this debacle of a tournament, and as such hold a certain level of responsibility. Apparently, they view that level of responsibility as very low. Instead of providing additional funds from their own corporate wallet, they are panhandling random SC2ers and forum-goers that had no involvement in the tournament. They should be taking responsibility for making a poor business decision, not guilt-tripping the community into covering their ass.
Essentially, IGN tried to take a short-cut by partnering their SEA Qualifier with the PPSL. This saved them tons of money and man-hours because they weren't directly having to run the tournament. It was a risk that didn't pan out, and now they are pandering off the financial responsibilities of the tournament to us, the SC2 fanbase. Like you mentioned, it sucks for Amanda and it's great to see that her livelihood will not be ruined because of this, but it seems a bit disingenuous for IGN to be asking for donations because one of their business deals went sour. The small business that I work for has 10's of thousands of dollars of unpaid invoices, but we don't go creating charity events to try to recoup the money. The owner foots the bill himself. Considering IGN is a huge corporation, bumping their sponsorship money up a few thousand dollars would have been a simple task, but instead they are asking 14 year-olds and anyone else that is willing to clean up a mistake that they were directly involved in.
On November 15 2011 12:50 SCST wrote: Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations?
Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much.
There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves (yes, IGN is capable), then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you.
This is ridiculous. IPL still has budgets from the bigger corporate people of IGN. IPL cannot simply give out free money. They already sponsored the event with $14,000. And you want them to give out free money? LOL You might as well ask why other large organizations aren't just giving out free money to the millions of people that are in need. IGN is just being nice by setting up a charity event. You don't have to donate.
Free money? That's what IGN is asking for from the community. Yet they have tons of money and the ability to donate. Some companies do donate lots of money to charity - though they are few are far between. It comes down to the individuals within the company - how strong are their convictions? How important is the charity in their opinion? Never in my life have I seen or worked for a company that has had the means to support a charity, but chooses to beg other people to support it instead.
It's ridiculous to argue on behalf of wealthy organization or person, trying to make an excuse for said person/organization as to why they should not share, and why others (people who may be less fortunate but more generous), should!
As far as I know from following the whole debacle, IPL had never interacted with Amanda prior to this issue. No one working for the IPL had ever interacted with her. Before this charity event was organized, pretty much no one were connecting Amanda's problems and the IPL's sponsorship in any way. So why do they suddenly have a moral obligation to do anything now? If they hadn't started this thread, no one would be criticizing the IPL for anything, and focused their anger at Gus. In fact, they'd probably have been praised for allocating the remaining money to Amanda instead of spreading it out across all the different creditors who remain unpaid. But because they decided to try and get her sufficient money to stay out of jail by using their brand name, stream channel, and stream revenue tonight, they get criticized for not donating everything owed? The IPL has a responsibility to maximize income to their mother-company IGN, and even if the people running the IPL would want to donate all the money, it's unlikely they'd be able to.
IGN is under no obligation to donate anything. However, they chose to take up this cause, which shows admirable moral quality. The issue I have is that the amount of money their asking for is so miniscule for them. If this were a significant amount of money relative to their profit margin alone, I wouldn't be picking a bone with them. Having worked in a corporate environment for many years, and seeing the thought-processes of many decision makers inside these companies, it irks me to no end when I see this kind of stingy charity work. Just pay it. Don't ask others to pay help or "alleviate" the incredible "burden" of a few thousand bucks. Just pay it.
On November 15 2011 13:34 17Sphynx17 wrote: Well in the philippines, as long as every paperwork is in order, it can be put to trial for failure to meet with obligation. Might have to start with arbitration first but there should be no stopping it from getting traction.
The problem with how stuff is done here in the philippines is most avoid the paper trail to avoid paying taxes. Contracts are not notarized and just appear as a "formal" agreement between 2 parties. It is true that once signed, it should be honored, but if its not notarized, and not witnessed, then it should not be "legally" binding in certain cases.
Trust is what most work on here in the philippines. While I believe SnixSniPe's family's experience shows a side of the how it can happen, it is possible to work harmoniously.
But there really is a risk in it. A friend of mine once said, "if you plan on doing business, don't do it with friends or family as you run the risk of losing the relationship once money is involved." Which is for the most part true because agruements/disagreements will happen once money is involved as both have a vested interest.
I still believe Gus just mismanaged everything and didn't account for the total cash that was/would be available to the PPSL Event and just ran with it.
I still expect a statement from Team AZK regarding the matter as it is still them who is still involved and a party to the "organizing body" who has still not made any official statement. One post here said they would rather work on it on the sidelines and clear the mess up.
If amanduh is the real Amanda then again, an official statement would be nice. And if she is in touch with any of the leaders of Team AZK then I hope she can tell them to release an official statement. They are still trying to dodge the issue, at least to me which is still wrong.
So Team AZK needs to clear the mess up and confront the issue like the ones raised on the blog, if it is true or false.
Just my 2 cents.
The blog has disappeared apparently. What's alarming is the fact that according to the blog Gus and some members from AZK flew to Las Vegas to meet with the IPL guys, considering the finances for that, that would cost around $1000(?rough estimate?) round trip per person, not to add hotel accommodations and whatnot.
Its just sad that IPL wasn't the only one with something to lose:
On November 15 2011 12:50 SCST wrote: Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations?
Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much.
There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves (yes, IGN is capable), then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you.
This is ridiculous. IPL still has budgets from the bigger corporate people of IGN. IPL cannot simply give out free money. They already sponsored the event with $14,000. And you want them to give out free money? LOL You might as well ask why other large organizations aren't just giving out free money to the millions of people that are in need. IGN is just being nice by setting up a charity event. You don't have to donate.
Free money? That's what IGN is asking for from the community. Yet they have tons of money and the ability to donate. Some companies do donate lots of money to charity - though they are few are far between. It comes down to the individuals within the company - how strong are their convictions? How important is the charity in their opinion? Never in my life have I seen or worked for a company that has had the means to support a charity, but chooses to beg other people to support it instead.
It's ridiculous to argue on behalf of wealthy organization or person, trying to make an excuse for said person/organization as to why they should not share, and why others (people who may be less fortunate but more generous), should!
As far as I know from following the whole debacle, IPL had never interacted with Amanda prior to this issue. No one working for the IPL had ever interacted with her. Before this charity event was organized, pretty much no one were connecting Amanda's problems and the IPL's sponsorship in any way. So why do they suddenly have a moral obligation to do anything now? If they hadn't started this thread, no one would be criticizing the IPL for anything, and focused their anger at Gus. In fact, they'd probably have been praised for allocating the remaining money to Amanda instead of spreading it out across all the different creditors who remain unpaid. But because they decided to try and get her sufficient money to stay out of jail by using their brand name, stream channel, and stream revenue tonight, they get criticized for not donating everything owed? The IPL has a responsibility to maximize income to their mother-company IGN, and even if the people running the IPL would want to donate all the money, it's unlikely they'd be able to.
IGN is under no obligation to donate anything. However, they chose to take up this cause, which shows admirable moral quality. The issue I have is that the amount of money their asking for is so miniscule for them. If this were a significant amount of money relative to their profit margin alone, I wouldn't be picking a bone with them. Having worked in a corporate environment for many years, and seeing the thought-processes of many decision makers inside these companies, it irks me to no end when I see this kind of stingy charity work. Just pay it. Don't ask others to pay help or "alleviate" the incredible "burden" of a few thousand bucks. Just pay it.
Again, you must have some serious info on IPL's bank statements. Care to share?
What financial responsbilities? They were supposed to pay $7,000. Which they are.
They're not supposed to foot the remaining $16K balance. What they're doing here is spearheading a charity to do so, since the people who are supposed to pay it are obviously scumbags.
Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
On November 15 2011 12:50 SCST wrote: Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations?
Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much.
There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves (yes, IGN is capable), then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you.
This is ridiculous. IPL still has budgets from the bigger corporate people of IGN. IPL cannot simply give out free money. They already sponsored the event with $14,000. And you want them to give out free money? LOL You might as well ask why other large organizations aren't just giving out free money to the millions of people that are in need. IGN is just being nice by setting up a charity event. You don't have to donate.
Free money? That's what IGN is asking for from the community. Yet they have tons of money and the ability to donate. Some companies do donate lots of money to charity - though they are few are far between. It comes down to the individuals within the company - how strong are their convictions? How important is the charity in their opinion? Never in my life have I seen or worked for a company that has had the means to support a charity, but chooses to beg other people to support it instead.
It's ridiculous to argue on behalf of wealthy organization or person, trying to make an excuse for said person/organization as to why they should not share, and why others (people who may be less fortunate but more generous), should!
You seem to be under the impression that the whole IGN is behind this donation drive, while in fact it is the eSports division of IGN. I was under the impression from the IPL3 interview with their headhoncho that he had the initiative to start the eSports division on his own, and was trying to prove to his boss that it can be successful. After IPL1 and 2 with minimum funding, he finally succeeded in getting them to fund a bigger event in IPL3. Point is, IGN is a business and they are not going to just be handing out money just for the fun of it.
Now imagine you are in the eSports division, and this debacle happened. You want to pay for Amanda debt but all you have is the 7000$ you didnt give to PPSL. What do you do? Do you go to corporate and ask your boss, hey this woman I know is being scammed and I feel it is our duty to fork out the rest of the money to pay for her expenses, even though its really not our fault. Your boss is going to laugh at your face. Of course you can pay the rest of the money using your own division budget but that would cut into future tournament expenses and prize pools.
So what do you do? You hold a fundraising. Seems like the appropriate reaction to me.
Good point. Good logic. My issue at hand is corporations/people not following through with their convictions. If one takes a moral stance and has the means to contribute, do so completely. If one takes a moral stance and does not have the means to contribute or can only contribute partially, I feel that it's ok to ask for help. How do we know for certain that this is the case with IGN, however?
On November 15 2011 13:29 SimDawg wrote: The simple fact is that I don't know how Amanda gets by in life, let alone runs a business. It's incredibly naive to go on the hook for that much money without something in writing.
IPL really needs to make things right. Ting screwed up big time with this decision. IGN should be looking at his job, too. I hope people are looking at how colossally screwed up it is that a bunch of people made unprofessional decisions to reach this point.
And now they're asking for the community to bail them out. I love being nice, I might even donate a buck or two because of how fucked up this whole thing is, but let's make sure people get their heads on straight in the future.
Oh, regarding this.
I'd just like to note, not being rude or anything, but with Amanda, since it's an agency, she owns it right? It was still a bit confusing but, when we mentioned the total 715k, was that with agency profit or without?
I'm saying, if she just needs help to pay the actual tickets, it should just be for the tickets, not the cost the agency was selling them to AZK or Gus.
It's still help and the help that she needs. If there were markups, I would presume, her agency would waive it as the risk was taken on by them unprofessionally and that is on them, not on anyone else.
I'm speaking from a business stand point. Others have stated how could a business run like that with no guarantee or way for them to go after AZK or Gus for the plane fare and just shoulder it on their own. What legitimate business would do that and I agree with them.
So I know Amada is here and would just like to ask if the 12k usd is simply the tickets - less the agency's profit (cause the hotels are an entirely different account) or is it 12k usd with the agency's profit.
Why do I want to ask her that? Well, the excess is made to help the others who weren't paid their respective fees and had to pay out of pocket.
i dont get some of the negativity, if you dont wanna donate than you dont and if you watch the stream its only IGN and after some time twitch tv loosing money from adds revenue, the end user is not loosing anything.
On November 15 2011 12:50 SCST wrote: Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations?
Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much.
There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves (yes, IGN is capable), then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you.
This is ridiculous. IPL still has budgets from the bigger corporate people of IGN. IPL cannot simply give out free money. They already sponsored the event with $14,000. And you want them to give out free money? LOL You might as well ask why other large organizations aren't just giving out free money to the millions of people that are in need. IGN is just being nice by setting up a charity event. You don't have to donate.
Free money? That's what IGN is asking for from the community. Yet they have tons of money and the ability to donate. Some companies do donate lots of money to charity - though they are few are far between. It comes down to the individuals within the company - how strong are their convictions? How important is the charity in their opinion? Never in my life have I seen or worked for a company that has had the means to support a charity, but chooses to beg other people to support it instead.
It's ridiculous to argue on behalf of wealthy organization or person, trying to make an excuse for said person/organization as to why they should not share, and why others (people who may be less fortunate but more generous), should!
As far as I know from following the whole debacle, IPL had never interacted with Amanda prior to this issue. No one working for the IPL had ever interacted with her. Before this charity event was organized, pretty much no one were connecting Amanda's problems and the IPL's sponsorship in any way. So why do they suddenly have a moral obligation to do anything now? If they hadn't started this thread, no one would be criticizing the IPL for anything, and focused their anger at Gus. In fact, they'd probably have been praised for allocating the remaining money to Amanda instead of spreading it out across all the different creditors who remain unpaid. But because they decided to try and get her sufficient money to stay out of jail by using their brand name, stream channel, and stream revenue tonight, they get criticized for not donating everything owed? The IPL has a responsibility to maximize income to their mother-company IGN, and even if the people running the IPL would want to donate all the money, it's unlikely they'd be able to.
IGN is under no obligation to donate anything. However, they chose to take up this cause, which shows admirable moral quality. The issue I have is that the amount of money their asking for is so miniscule for them. If this were a significant amount of money relative to their profit margin alone, I wouldn't be picking a bone with them. Having worked in a corporate environment for many years, and seeing the thought-processes of many decision makers inside these companies, it irks me to no end when I see this kind of stingy charity work. Just pay it. Don't ask others to pay help or "alleviate" the incredible "burden" of a few thousand bucks. Just pay it.
Again, you must have some serious info on IPL's bank statements. Care to share?
IGN's operating income and profit margin is public knowledge.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
Agreed. We can only hope that the message people will take from this is that sponsors should be more careful with whom they deal with, and not be taking big risks with the knowledge that the community will be there to bail them out.
On November 15 2011 12:50 SCST wrote: Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations?
Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much.
There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves (yes, IGN is capable), then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you.
This is ridiculous. IPL still has budgets from the bigger corporate people of IGN. IPL cannot simply give out free money. They already sponsored the event with $14,000. And you want them to give out free money? LOL You might as well ask why other large organizations aren't just giving out free money to the millions of people that are in need. IGN is just being nice by setting up a charity event. You don't have to donate.
Free money? That's what IGN is asking for from the community. Yet they have tons of money and the ability to donate. Some companies do donate lots of money to charity - though they are few are far between. It comes down to the individuals within the company - how strong are their convictions? How important is the charity in their opinion? Never in my life have I seen or worked for a company that has had the means to support a charity, but chooses to beg other people to support it instead.
It's ridiculous to argue on behalf of wealthy organization or person, trying to make an excuse for said person/organization as to why they should not share, and why others (people who may be less fortunate but more generous), should!
As far as I know from following the whole debacle, IPL had never interacted with Amanda prior to this issue. No one working for the IPL had ever interacted with her. Before this charity event was organized, pretty much no one were connecting Amanda's problems and the IPL's sponsorship in any way. So why do they suddenly have a moral obligation to do anything now? If they hadn't started this thread, no one would be criticizing the IPL for anything, and focused their anger at Gus. In fact, they'd probably have been praised for allocating the remaining money to Amanda instead of spreading it out across all the different creditors who remain unpaid. But because they decided to try and get her sufficient money to stay out of jail by using their brand name, stream channel, and stream revenue tonight, they get criticized for not donating everything owed? The IPL has a responsibility to maximize income to their mother-company IGN, and even if the people running the IPL would want to donate all the money, it's unlikely they'd be able to.
IGN is under no obligation to donate anything. However, they chose to take up this cause, which shows admirable moral quality. The issue I have is that the amount of money their asking for is so miniscule for them. If this were a significant amount of money relative to their profit margin alone, I wouldn't be picking a bone with them. Having worked in a corporate environment for many years, and seeing the thought-processes of many decision makers inside these companies, it irks me to no end when I see this kind of stingy charity work. Just pay it. Don't ask others to pay help or "alleviate" the incredible "burden" of a few thousand bucks. Just pay it.
Again, you must have some serious info on IPL's bank statements. Care to share?
IGN's operating income and profit margin is public knowledge.
Good. Now tell us what is IPL's funding from IGN.
I didn't ask what IGN makes, I asked what IPL has.
On November 15 2011 12:50 SCST wrote: Folks I have to agree with some of the people questioning IGN here. I am a fan of IGN, and I know that IGN has a LOT of money. So can someone from IGN please explain why this large corporation cannot help Amanda out directly instead of begging the fans for donations?
Would be nice to see more than a handful of U.S. companies open their wallets for charity once in a while. Especially when said company is directly related to the charity "issue" or "reason". Though as someone who previously worked in corporate America (the pinnacle of selfish capitalism), I've learned not to expect much.
There is no debate from me that Amanda needs help. I do debate, however, the selfish path that this is heading down. If IGN wants to "make things right", and is capable of doing so themselves, then do it. Don't ask others to do it for you.
1. IGN is not required to do anything. It fulfilled its obligation of paying its $14,000. 2. IGN uses its own resources (stream and casters) to create a charity event for amanda. no requirement they do so.
Yep, sounds like greedy capitalism to me. Stop making demands on companies that you have no right asking for.
1. It's not about obligation, it's about the fact that IGN is clearly making a moral stand by driving the charity, but is caught red-handed by not just taking care of the problem themselves when they do have the means to do it.
2. IGN is uses their resources to help Amanda "partially", rather than just taking care of the problem which they could.
I find the psychology being used here fascinating. Not only does IGN win community support by distancing themselves from the problems at the event, they appear to be the "good" guy even though they are selfishly asking the community to cough up (what is to IGN) the equivalent of a drop-in-the-bucket of profits. They could pay the whole thing, they chose not to. My argument is that simple.
The top 1% could solve world hunger, they choose not to. Problem argument? They can do it, they have no obligation to. If GSL failed you wouldn't see LG/GSkill covering the costs, since they would have provided the sponsorship money and that's all they need to do. If someone in the organisation feels bad and gets company approval to run this charity they shouldn't get criticised, or additional funding. IGN is doing a good thing, beyond their obligations.
The top 1% didn't choose to take a moral stance on the issue, and ask others to contribute on their behalf. That's the issue in this argument. Corporations are full of people who make decisions. An individual somewhere in IGN made the decision to not fully support the charity. Whether that was the CEO or CFO of IGN not backing up IPL, the director of IPL itself or some balding accountant somewhere that has influence on these types of things. Point is: IGN makes tons and tons of money relative to the amount needed for charity. There was no need to ask for help from anyone.
Edit: And If I were you, I wouldn't insinuate that it's "OK" for the top 1% to let people starve to death when they could help. What kind of a person defends that ideology?
On November 15 2011 13:34 17Sphynx17 wrote: Well in the philippines, as long as every paperwork is in order, it can be put to trial for failure to meet with obligation. Might have to start with arbitration first but there should be no stopping it from getting traction.
The problem with how stuff is done here in the philippines is most avoid the paper trail to avoid paying taxes. Contracts are not notarized and just appear as a "formal" agreement between 2 parties. It is true that once signed, it should be honored, but if its not notarized, and not witnessed, then it should not be "legally" binding in certain cases.
Trust is what most work on here in the philippines. While I believe SnixSniPe's family's experience shows a side of the how it can happen, it is possible to work harmoniously.
But there really is a risk in it. A friend of mine once said, "if you plan on doing business, don't do it with friends or family as you run the risk of losing the relationship once money is involved." Which is for the most part true because agruements/disagreements will happen once money is involved as both have a vested interest.
I still believe Gus just mismanaged everything and didn't account for the total cash that was/would be available to the PPSL Event and just ran with it.
I still expect a statement from Team AZK regarding the matter as it is still them who is still involved and a party to the "organizing body" who has still not made any official statement. One post here said they would rather work on it on the sidelines and clear the mess up.
If amanduh is the real Amanda then again, an official statement would be nice. And if she is in touch with any of the leaders of Team AZK then I hope she can tell them to release an official statement. They are still trying to dodge the issue, at least to me which is still wrong.
So Team AZK needs to clear the mess up and confront the issue like the ones raised on the blog, if it is true or false.
Just my 2 cents.
Hey yup.. Im the amanda referred to in the thread (i bravely say this as along with what everyones doing a lot of people flame me as well). I cannot represent azk as a whole. I myself have no statement from gus either. Wherever the initial funds went i have no concrete idea other than the php 215,000 that has been paid off officially from friday. As much as id like to clear up what i know from my end i again can only stand up for a small portion of Team AZK.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
As long as you say that you were scammed I would throw all of my money at you, for I am a sucker.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
As long as you say that you were scammed I would throw all of my money at you, for I am a sucker.
Ditto, especially if you are a girl :D
(man this thread is so serious)
Edit: So serious that I wouldn't be surprised if I get flamed for sexism. :o
On November 15 2011 13:45 amanduh wrote: Hey yup.. Im the amanda referred to in the thread (i bravely say this as along with what everyones doing a lot of people flame me as well). I cannot represent azk as a whole. I myself have no statement from gus either. Wherever the initial funds went i have no concrete idea other than the php 215,000 that has been paid off officially from friday. As much as id like to clear up what i know from my end i again can only stand up for a small portion of Team AZK.
Well seeing as there's a lot of things people do want to know, i don't suppose it would be too much trouble to do a mini AMA on here or something, to get your side of the story. I think the most urgent questions we wanna ask is:
1. Are you officially part of team AZK? 2. Was there a contract between you and gus when this deal happened?
Again, this is coming from your side, so it shouldn't be an official statement per se.
On November 15 2011 13:34 17Sphynx17 wrote: Well in the philippines, as long as every paperwork is in order, it can be put to trial for failure to meet with obligation. Might have to start with arbitration first but there should be no stopping it from getting traction.
The problem with how stuff is done here in the philippines is most avoid the paper trail to avoid paying taxes. Contracts are not notarized and just appear as a "formal" agreement between 2 parties. It is true that once signed, it should be honored, but if its not notarized, and not witnessed, then it should not be "legally" binding in certain cases.
Trust is what most work on here in the philippines. While I believe SnixSniPe's family's experience shows a side of the how it can happen, it is possible to work harmoniously.
But there really is a risk in it. A friend of mine once said, "if you plan on doing business, don't do it with friends or family as you run the risk of losing the relationship once money is involved." Which is for the most part true because agruements/disagreements will happen once money is involved as both have a vested interest.
I still believe Gus just mismanaged everything and didn't account for the total cash that was/would be available to the PPSL Event and just ran with it.
I still expect a statement from Team AZK regarding the matter as it is still them who is still involved and a party to the "organizing body" who has still not made any official statement. One post here said they would rather work on it on the sidelines and clear the mess up.
If amanduh is the real Amanda then again, an official statement would be nice. And if she is in touch with any of the leaders of Team AZK then I hope she can tell them to release an official statement. They are still trying to dodge the issue, at least to me which is still wrong.
So Team AZK needs to clear the mess up and confront the issue like the ones raised on the blog, if it is true or false.
Just my 2 cents.
Hey yup.. Im the amanda referred to in the thread (i bravely say this as along with what everyones doing a lot of people flame me as well). I cannot represent azk as a whole. I myself have no statement from gus either. Wherever the initial funds went i have no concrete idea other than the php 215,000 that has been paid off officially from friday. As much as id like to clear up what i know from my end i again can only stand up for a small portion of Team AZK.
IC. For the record Amanda, were you officially a member of Team AZK? Some statements in various threads say you were just an agency, but some state that you were a member of Team AZK. Care to clarify? Thanks.
On November 15 2011 13:34 17Sphynx17 wrote: Well in the philippines, as long as every paperwork is in order, it can be put to trial for failure to meet with obligation. Might have to start with arbitration first but there should be no stopping it from getting traction.
The problem with how stuff is done here in the philippines is most avoid the paper trail to avoid paying taxes. Contracts are not notarized and just appear as a "formal" agreement between 2 parties. It is true that once signed, it should be honored, but if its not notarized, and not witnessed, then it should not be "legally" binding in certain cases.
Trust is what most work on here in the philippines. While I believe SnixSniPe's family's experience shows a side of the how it can happen, it is possible to work harmoniously.
But there really is a risk in it. A friend of mine once said, "if you plan on doing business, don't do it with friends or family as you run the risk of losing the relationship once money is involved." Which is for the most part true because agruements/disagreements will happen once money is involved as both have a vested interest.
I still believe Gus just mismanaged everything and didn't account for the total cash that was/would be available to the PPSL Event and just ran with it.
I still expect a statement from Team AZK regarding the matter as it is still them who is still involved and a party to the "organizing body" who has still not made any official statement. One post here said they would rather work on it on the sidelines and clear the mess up.
If amanduh is the real Amanda then again, an official statement would be nice. And if she is in touch with any of the leaders of Team AZK then I hope she can tell them to release an official statement. They are still trying to dodge the issue, at least to me which is still wrong.
So Team AZK needs to clear the mess up and confront the issue like the ones raised on the blog, if it is true or false.
Just my 2 cents.
The blog has disappeared apparently. What's alarming is the fact that according to the blog Gus and some members from AZK flew to Las Vegas to meet with the IPL guys, considering the finances for that, that would cost around $1000(?rough estimate?) round trip per person, not to add hotel accommodations and whatnot.
Its just sad that IPL wasn't the only one with something to lose:
That's about 10 other sponsors down there.
Didn't know the blog was taken down, luckily it was copied by one poster in one thread.
This story is about how one man brought shame to the Philippine gaming community in one single blow. The events are stated in this blog are all factual telling the tales in which how the recently concluded IGSL Pacific Qualifiers came to be and how this event brought down the country’s reputation for gaming. We will not name any names of the suppliers and participants of this event, except for the one who orchastrated it all.
This started on May of 2011, when a gamer named TeamAZM WitchDoc or also known as Augustus “Gus” Ledesma approached several IT brands with a dream of uplifting the Philippine gaming community and truly placing the country in the radar of world gaming championships. It sounded like a great plan since no single gaming event could match the scale of the locally discontinued World Cyber Gaming Tournaments normally held by TV giant, Samsung. Most local Philippine events are held by PC stores, or component brands and lacked the class or organization to truly represent the country’s best gamers. The vision that this man had convinced several IT component manufacturers to join in for the event, which was aptly named Philippine Pro Starcraft League.
After several meetings, cost estimates and presentations, by June the event support for the PPSL was finally approved. The tournament was supposed to be held on the first week of October. Ledesma promised ad placements, event marketing, online and offline announcements to promote the event. (Take note that the tournament was still called PPSL and not IGSL Pacific Qualifiers. By this time, IGSL didn’t get involved yet in the event.) Two months came to pass, no one heard from Ledesma. By August, the only thing that the sponsors saw was the poster and jacket design. No word yet on how the event will happen, or what was needed for it. The sponsors were expecting the poster to be out in the gaming community and the IT industry by this time. It was imperative that the brands supporting the event would be broadcasted properly. Upon closer inspection, the posters were never printed, nor distributed to the IT industry as promised by Ledesma.
In one of the last email conversations that the sponsors had with Ledesma, his team mentioned “PPSL will change the way how the world will view Philippine gaming”. By the end of August, nothing turly substantial or major was presented. This earned the distrust of the sponsors, but because of their commitment to the event still decided to push thru with it. A marketing plan came from Ledesma and his marketing manager outlinining the following:
Hype video for the PPSL’s sponsor for viral marketing. Flyers to be handed out in strategic locations around Metro Manila. PPSL Will be giving out free goodies through their online promotions in Facebook. Updating all our partner websites with new details concerning the PPSL
None of the promised marketing plans were followed except for a few exposures from HWM and Philippine Star. This wasn’t the fault of Ledesma’s PR agency, but Ledesma who took so long to approve the PR that was needed by the event. Admists the shadiness of the organizer’s character, the partners already signed the contract on the event, so there was no backing out. It was reported that Ledesma asked for a substantial amount of money to make the event happen (event cost and the prize money), in which the combined effort of the partners was easily attainable. This is where things started to slope down. Eventhough that the partners paid already half for the event, Ledesma kept hammering the sponsors for more money. He asked an additional 16 computer units for which he didn’t explain why he needed more (the reality will be revealed later on) in which the partners did not agree anymore since the contract was already inked months before. He threathened that we would ask IT brands for marketing support if what he wanted couldn’t be given. Sadly, to his dismay, the contract in which he signed had an exclusivity clause in it so competing brands cannot participate in the event even if Ledesma wanted them to.
As the event date drew near, the partners received an email moving the event from October to November. This was to increase the visibility of the promotions that the PPSL needed and give more time for Ledesma to fine tune everything that was needed for the event. The final dates were set on November 7-8, 2011, almost simultaneous to the Pinoy Gaming Festival 2.0 that another gaming group called Mineski was planning. This was relayed to Ledesma, which reportedly said:
Mineski is for squatters, no one will go to that event
Around October, Ledesma flew the United States with his team without the knowledge of the partners. This was to ask for the official and financial support of IGN. By accepting IGN support, the event was now officially IGSL Pacific Qualifiers. This made the partners feel a tad queesy, since Ledesma held a significant amount of money and flew to Las Vegas with three other people. It gave the impression that he used the partner’s money to fund the trip.
Fast forward to November 7. The partners were setting up in Glorietta already as early as 12AM. All the requirements for the event was completed by 7AM and everything was already a green light. Whatever technical glitches on hardware was easily resolved by the partners team. When the players complained about how slow the PC’s were running, the units were immediately upgraded a few hours later. The main technical problem didn’t come from the hardware, but rather on the crawling internet connection that Globe Telecom provided. From 6750 to Glorietta, Globe provided a point to point 3Mbps connection to cater to 32 computer units. Anyone knows that a point to point 3Mbps connection cannot accommodate 32 players playing. This was the bandwidth that Ledesma asked from Globe hence the slow down in the games as well as in the broadcasts. The players had to split into groups, playing across Makati in different internet cafes. Some were left in Glorietta, the rest awaiting what will happen to them. The internet speed remained the same even during the second day. Although there were a lot of spectators and walk-in during the event which made the partners happy, Ledesma seemed uncontent. He was seen hammering the partners for additional for financial support even to the minutes before the prize awarding. It was even reported that the event marshalls and volunteers were not even paid their promised wages.
The main technical problem didn’t come from the hardware, but rather on the crawling internet connection that Globe Telecom provided. From 6750 to Glorietta, Globe provided a point to point 3Mbps connection to cater to 32 computer units.
As for the allegations regarding the players who were supposed to be flown in from abroad or even locally, we cannot comment on it. You’d have to read the links that are listed below if you want more information regarding that aspect of the tournament. As for the Heroes of Newerth side, when the partners pieced it all together, that was actually the reason why Ledesma was severely pushing the addition of 16 units for the tournament. Apparently, Ledesma was given a additional 2000USD to be used for prizes for the HON tournament which he promised to be simultaneous with the IPSL Tournament.
What seemed to be the main problem with Ledesma as far as the partners are concerned is his inability to present a concrete breakdown of expenses and the promised marketing mileage was not attained. Where were the team jackets and lanyards that the partners paid for? What happened to the big posters in the venue as well as the TV coverage? What happened to all the money? It made the partners feel that they were duped by a single entity the same way the rest of the international and local gaming communities. Truly, no single person has made such an impact in the gaming industry that it be making waves around the whole Philippines and international scene. Sadly, instead of putting the Philippines in the international map in a positive way, one man was able to turn the world disgusted at the Philippines on how this international competition happened.
My issue at hand is corporations/people not following through with their convictions. If one takes a moral stance and has the means to contribute, do so completely.
No. Not everyone is a fucking saint.
Let's say I have $500 in my pocket. This $500 is spending money left over after bills and savings. I pass by charity for the homeless. I do not see what is fucking wrong if I were to just donate $100 instead of $500 so I have $400 to spend on stuff like games, fast food/fine dining, movies, or other types of luxuries.
I want to help people but I certainly do not spend 8 hours a day in work, 5 days a week just so I can give someone all my spare cash.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
Chill, if it was possible you were going to go to jail and lose your livelihood then absolutely, I'd be the first to donate. I am willing to bet the community would leap to your defense if life had the potential to go down in flames. This is Amanda's job, freedom, and potential future (credit risk, lack of employment possibilities due to these problems, etc) we're talking about.
On November 15 2011 13:34 17Sphynx17 wrote: Well in the philippines, as long as every paperwork is in order, it can be put to trial for failure to meet with obligation. Might have to start with arbitration first but there should be no stopping it from getting traction.
The problem with how stuff is done here in the philippines is most avoid the paper trail to avoid paying taxes. Contracts are not notarized and just appear as a "formal" agreement between 2 parties. It is true that once signed, it should be honored, but if its not notarized, and not witnessed, then it should not be "legally" binding in certain cases.
Trust is what most work on here in the philippines. While I believe SnixSniPe's family's experience shows a side of the how it can happen, it is possible to work harmoniously.
But there really is a risk in it. A friend of mine once said, "if you plan on doing business, don't do it with friends or family as you run the risk of losing the relationship once money is involved." Which is for the most part true because agruements/disagreements will happen once money is involved as both have a vested interest.
I still believe Gus just mismanaged everything and didn't account for the total cash that was/would be available to the PPSL Event and just ran with it.
I still expect a statement from Team AZK regarding the matter as it is still them who is still involved and a party to the "organizing body" who has still not made any official statement. One post here said they would rather work on it on the sidelines and clear the mess up.
If amanduh is the real Amanda then again, an official statement would be nice. And if she is in touch with any of the leaders of Team AZK then I hope she can tell them to release an official statement. They are still trying to dodge the issue, at least to me which is still wrong.
So Team AZK needs to clear the mess up and confront the issue like the ones raised on the blog, if it is true or false.
Just my 2 cents.
The blog has disappeared apparently. What's alarming is the fact that according to the blog Gus and some members from AZK flew to Las Vegas to meet with the IPL guys, considering the finances for that, that would cost around $1000(?rough estimate?) round trip per person, not to add hotel accommodations and whatnot.
Its just sad that IPL wasn't the only one with something to lose:
That's about 10 other sponsors down there.
This is false. Gus and AZK were never flown to Las Vegas -- They were, however, at Atlantic City participating in IPL3: Origins. Anyone telling you otherwise is lying. All travel for IPL is booked through me.
Okay as of the moment i am still part of team azk. I just happen to work in an agency. Everythings been done via phone calls emails text message skype. Each time a portion of the agreement has been brought up it came out upfront (like the first php 200,000) Legal documentations such as lawyer "validated" contracts werent part of the whole thing (i admit that end was wrong which i do take the blame for) but informally all agreements are done online / saved somehow. Point being alot of people were not in a contract. Lets say im not in a non diclosure contract so i can actually write everything down but i am not doing as it may very well just make situations even worse for everyone.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
agree this is an odd thing to do.. still have not seen any posts with concrete details about Amanda or proof of the actual debt..
ie. actual ticket/hotel costs, travel company markup and expenses ect.
On November 15 2011 14:00 amanduh wrote: Okay as of the moment i am still part of team azk. I just happen to work in an agency. Everythings been done via phone calls emails text message skype. Each time a portion of the agreement has been brought up it came out upfront (like the first php 200,000) Legal documentations such as lawyer "validated" contracts werent part of the whole thing (i admit that end was wrong which i do take the blame for) but informally all agreements are done online / saved somehow. Point being alot of people were not in a contract. Lets say im not in a non diclosure contract so i can actually write everything down but i am not doing as it may very well just make situations even worse for everyone.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
I think your analogy is horrifically weak. Unless you too have lost > $10,000 in "short changings". The response is proportional to the shock and scope of the crime. Would the community be expected to all chip in if some guy runs a tournament into the ground and ends up a few grand in debt as a result? No. But this is a case where well-intentioned people got completely taken advantage of for thousands of dollars. It's wholly different than your example of "paying bills".
On November 15 2011 13:34 17Sphynx17 wrote: Well in the philippines, as long as every paperwork is in order, it can be put to trial for failure to meet with obligation. Might have to start with arbitration first but there should be no stopping it from getting traction.
The problem with how stuff is done here in the philippines is most avoid the paper trail to avoid paying taxes. Contracts are not notarized and just appear as a "formal" agreement between 2 parties. It is true that once signed, it should be honored, but if its not notarized, and not witnessed, then it should not be "legally" binding in certain cases.
Trust is what most work on here in the philippines. While I believe SnixSniPe's family's experience shows a side of the how it can happen, it is possible to work harmoniously.
But there really is a risk in it. A friend of mine once said, "if you plan on doing business, don't do it with friends or family as you run the risk of losing the relationship once money is involved." Which is for the most part true because agruements/disagreements will happen once money is involved as both have a vested interest.
I still believe Gus just mismanaged everything and didn't account for the total cash that was/would be available to the PPSL Event and just ran with it.
I still expect a statement from Team AZK regarding the matter as it is still them who is still involved and a party to the "organizing body" who has still not made any official statement. One post here said they would rather work on it on the sidelines and clear the mess up.
If amanduh is the real Amanda then again, an official statement would be nice. And if she is in touch with any of the leaders of Team AZK then I hope she can tell them to release an official statement. They are still trying to dodge the issue, at least to me which is still wrong.
So Team AZK needs to clear the mess up and confront the issue like the ones raised on the blog, if it is true or false.
Just my 2 cents.
Hey yup.. Im the amanda referred to in the thread (i bravely say this as along with what everyones doing a lot of people flame me as well). I cannot represent azk as a whole. I myself have no statement from gus either. Wherever the initial funds went i have no concrete idea other than the php 215,000 that has been paid off officially from friday. As much as id like to clear up what i know from my end i again can only stand up for a small portion of Team AZK.
So you're a travel agent and a part of Team AZK? Have you previously been in charge of travel arrangements for team AZK?
And if you were owed $12,000 USD for the travel expenses and you were paid $215,000 PHP, which equals approximately $5,000 USD, then you are now $7,000 in the hole, which is the amount that IPL has already said it has allocated for you in the original post. That seems to equal your original $12,000 USD debt. What exactly is the purpose of this fundraiser if your expenses have already been covered when taking into consideration the $7,000 USD that IPL still owes? I'm not trying to harp on you, I'm just trying to get the facts straight, which seem to be in short supply.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
I don't think you're facing jail time for helping to promote e-sports in a region with an underdeveloped scene because some guy screwed you over. IGN could have held this charity in support of everyone who got screwed over...but its mainly for Amanda, since she seems to be in the most dire situation.
My issue at hand is corporations/people not following through with their convictions. If one takes a moral stance and has the means to contribute, do so completely.
No. Not everyone is a fucking saint.
Let's say I have $500 in my pocket. This $500 is spending money left over after bills and savings. I pass by charity for the homeless. I do not see what is fucking wrong if I were to just donate $100 instead of $500 so I have $400 to spend on stuff like games, fast food/fine dining, movies, or other types of luxuries.
I want to help people but I certainly do not spend 8 hours a day in work, 5 days a week just so I can give someone all my spare cash.
Of course. You chose to donate 1/5 of what you had in your pocket to charity. That's extremely generous actually, and reflects on your character.
If IGN were like you, and they donated 1/5 of what was in their pocket (net profit for 2011) it would be $2,000,000 dollars.
But Amanda didn't need $2,000,000 dollars. She needed $7,000 more, or 0.0007% of what was in IGN's pocket. And instead of giving it to her, they chose to ask you to cough it up instead.
Thanks to everyone whos been kind enough in doing so
Documentation of what has happened have been forwarded to IGN already. i dont think theyd just put up something if things were not well enough to prove a situation. From the gunRun post last wednesday when i was with clive at the hotel, none of us honestly thought this is what would happen.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
agree this is an odd thing to do.. still have not seen any posts with concrete details about Amanda or proof of the actual debt..
ie. actual ticket/hotel costs, travel company markup and expenses ect.
Even if you don't trust Amanda because you don't know her, TheGunRun personally has vouched for the veracity of her claims. Gunrun has much greater history with the scene through his work with GLHF.tv and Twitch.tv. Undoubtedly IGN has not simply blindly accepted her claims either and has investigated before organizing this donation drive. I can't speak for them 100%, but it would be incredibly poor judgement on their behalf if they just raised >$12,000 dollars to throw at another scam. I'd imagine they did their homework if for no other reason than to keep their books in order.
On November 15 2011 13:34 17Sphynx17 wrote: Well in the philippines, as long as every paperwork is in order, it can be put to trial for failure to meet with obligation. Might have to start with arbitration first but there should be no stopping it from getting traction.
The problem with how stuff is done here in the philippines is most avoid the paper trail to avoid paying taxes. Contracts are not notarized and just appear as a "formal" agreement between 2 parties. It is true that once signed, it should be honored, but if its not notarized, and not witnessed, then it should not be "legally" binding in certain cases.
Trust is what most work on here in the philippines. While I believe SnixSniPe's family's experience shows a side of the how it can happen, it is possible to work harmoniously.
But there really is a risk in it. A friend of mine once said, "if you plan on doing business, don't do it with friends or family as you run the risk of losing the relationship once money is involved." Which is for the most part true because agruements/disagreements will happen once money is involved as both have a vested interest.
I still believe Gus just mismanaged everything and didn't account for the total cash that was/would be available to the PPSL Event and just ran with it.
I still expect a statement from Team AZK regarding the matter as it is still them who is still involved and a party to the "organizing body" who has still not made any official statement. One post here said they would rather work on it on the sidelines and clear the mess up.
If amanduh is the real Amanda then again, an official statement would be nice. And if she is in touch with any of the leaders of Team AZK then I hope she can tell them to release an official statement. They are still trying to dodge the issue, at least to me which is still wrong.
So Team AZK needs to clear the mess up and confront the issue like the ones raised on the blog, if it is true or false.
Just my 2 cents.
Hey yup.. Im the amanda referred to in the thread (i bravely say this as along with what everyones doing a lot of people flame me as well). I cannot represent azk as a whole. I myself have no statement from gus either. Wherever the initial funds went i have no concrete idea other than the php 215,000 that has been paid off officially from friday. As much as id like to clear up what i know from my end i again can only stand up for a small portion of Team AZK.
So you're a travel agent and a part of Team AZK? Have you previously been in charge of travel arrangements for team AZK?
And if you were owed $12,000 USD for the travel expenses and you were paid $215,000 PHP, which equals approximately $5,000, then you are now $7,000 in the hole, which is the amount that IPL has already said it has allocated for you in the original post. That seems to equal your original $12,000 USD debt. What exactly is the purpose of this fundraiser if your expenses have already been covered when taking into consideration the $7,000 IPL still owes? I'm not trying to harp on you, I'm just trying to get the facts straight, which seem to be in short supply.
I'd like to jump in with a quote from another thread:
This is a message from Amanda who is possibly facing jail if this is not resolved imminently: I issued a total of php 715,000 worth of tickets. 200,000 has been paid, so the outstanding debt is close to php 516,000. Told gunrun already and like im really hoping people in the community can help as being jailed is a possibility for me. I am connected to a travel agency that is why.
My issue at hand is corporations/people not following through with their convictions. If one takes a moral stance and has the means to contribute, do so completely.
No. Not everyone is a fucking saint.
Let's say I have $500 in my pocket. This $500 is spending money left over after bills and savings. I pass by charity for the homeless. I do not see what is fucking wrong if I were to just donate $100 instead of $500 so I have $400 to spend on stuff like games, fast food/fine dining, movies, or other types of luxuries.
I want to help people but I certainly do not spend 8 hours a day in work, 5 days a week just so I can give someone all my spare cash.
Of course. You chose to donate 1/5 of what you had in your pocket to charity. That's extremely generous actually, and reflects on your character.
If IGN were like you, and they donated 1/5 of what was in their pocket (net profit for 2011) it would be $2,000,000 dollars.
But Amanda didn't need $2,000,000 dollars. She needed $7,000 more, or 0.0007% of what was in IGN's pocket. And instead of giving it to her, they chose to ask you to cough it up instead.
For the third time, what is IPL's bank right now. What's 20% of their available bank to spend right now?
IGN does not have the same responsibilities as IPL - they give IPL funding, and that funding I would imagine has already been assigned for 2012.
On November 15 2011 13:34 17Sphynx17 wrote: Well in the philippines, as long as every paperwork is in order, it can be put to trial for failure to meet with obligation. Might have to start with arbitration first but there should be no stopping it from getting traction.
The problem with how stuff is done here in the philippines is most avoid the paper trail to avoid paying taxes. Contracts are not notarized and just appear as a "formal" agreement between 2 parties. It is true that once signed, it should be honored, but if its not notarized, and not witnessed, then it should not be "legally" binding in certain cases.
Trust is what most work on here in the philippines. While I believe SnixSniPe's family's experience shows a side of the how it can happen, it is possible to work harmoniously.
But there really is a risk in it. A friend of mine once said, "if you plan on doing business, don't do it with friends or family as you run the risk of losing the relationship once money is involved." Which is for the most part true because agruements/disagreements will happen once money is involved as both have a vested interest.
I still believe Gus just mismanaged everything and didn't account for the total cash that was/would be available to the PPSL Event and just ran with it.
I still expect a statement from Team AZK regarding the matter as it is still them who is still involved and a party to the "organizing body" who has still not made any official statement. One post here said they would rather work on it on the sidelines and clear the mess up.
If amanduh is the real Amanda then again, an official statement would be nice. And if she is in touch with any of the leaders of Team AZK then I hope she can tell them to release an official statement. They are still trying to dodge the issue, at least to me which is still wrong.
So Team AZK needs to clear the mess up and confront the issue like the ones raised on the blog, if it is true or false.
Just my 2 cents.
Hey yup.. Im the amanda referred to in the thread (i bravely say this as along with what everyones doing a lot of people flame me as well). I cannot represent azk as a whole. I myself have no statement from gus either. Wherever the initial funds went i have no concrete idea other than the php 215,000 that has been paid off officially from friday. As much as id like to clear up what i know from my end i again can only stand up for a small portion of Team AZK.
So you're a travel agent and a part of Team AZK? Have you previously been in charge of travel arrangements for team AZK?
And if you were owed $12,000 USD for the travel expenses and you were paid $215,000 PHP, which equals approximately $5,000, then you are now $7,000 in the hole, which is the amount that IPL has already said it has allocated for you in the original post. That seems to equal your original $12,000 USD debt. What exactly is the purpose of this fundraiser if your expenses have already been covered when taking into consideration the $7,000 IPL still owes? I'm not trying to harp on you, I'm just trying to get the facts straight, which seem to be in short supply.
I'm wondering this as well...
Seems she is fine with collecting the community's money, but refuses to release any actual details.. :|
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
Do you disagree on principle or are you worried about setting a precendent proper? I mean, do you think people will expect to get reimbursed if they get scammed while being involved in ESPORTS? And maybe be less careful than they should because of that?
Because TBH I don't think that's likely. I don't think people will risk their business thinking if things go wrong they probably get bailed out (because it has happened once before).
On November 15 2011 13:34 17Sphynx17 wrote: Well in the philippines, as long as every paperwork is in order, it can be put to trial for failure to meet with obligation. Might have to start with arbitration first but there should be no stopping it from getting traction.
The problem with how stuff is done here in the philippines is most avoid the paper trail to avoid paying taxes. Contracts are not notarized and just appear as a "formal" agreement between 2 parties. It is true that once signed, it should be honored, but if its not notarized, and not witnessed, then it should not be "legally" binding in certain cases.
Trust is what most work on here in the philippines. While I believe SnixSniPe's family's experience shows a side of the how it can happen, it is possible to work harmoniously.
But there really is a risk in it. A friend of mine once said, "if you plan on doing business, don't do it with friends or family as you run the risk of losing the relationship once money is involved." Which is for the most part true because agruements/disagreements will happen once money is involved as both have a vested interest.
I still believe Gus just mismanaged everything and didn't account for the total cash that was/would be available to the PPSL Event and just ran with it.
I still expect a statement from Team AZK regarding the matter as it is still them who is still involved and a party to the "organizing body" who has still not made any official statement. One post here said they would rather work on it on the sidelines and clear the mess up.
If amanduh is the real Amanda then again, an official statement would be nice. And if she is in touch with any of the leaders of Team AZK then I hope she can tell them to release an official statement. They are still trying to dodge the issue, at least to me which is still wrong.
So Team AZK needs to clear the mess up and confront the issue like the ones raised on the blog, if it is true or false.
Just my 2 cents.
The blog has disappeared apparently. What's alarming is the fact that according to the blog Gus and some members from AZK flew to Las Vegas to meet with the IPL guys, considering the finances for that, that would cost around $1000(?rough estimate?) round trip per person, not to add hotel accommodations and whatnot.
Its just sad that IPL wasn't the only one with something to lose:
That's about 10 other sponsors down there.
This is false. Gus and AZK were never flown to Las Vegas -- They were, however, at Atlantic City participating in IPL3: Origins. Anyone telling you otherwise is lying. All travel for IPL is booked through me.
From what I got from the blog previously posted at tech kitchen (See a copy on previous page I posted) it was before IPL was to be a sponsor for PPSL. Therefore, Gus and some of AZK guys went to IPL3 and met with David Ting of IGN and that's where the ball rolled that it became a IPL Qualifier which was not made known to the original set of sponsors until almost the last minute.
It was never proven that the post from the blog was true, partially true or completely false. So in the part of IGN, I would gather you guys didn't fly them to IPL3 (at least that much). That the claim that they could have used money for PPSL to get to IPL3 is plausible but may not be completely true. Again, no AZK statement, no confirmation.
If you guys want your money to go to a reputable charity just go to The Red Cross or Doctors without Borders, this isn't a charity, this is pan-handling and the thread title should reflect as such.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
horrible analogy. this isn't something small--someone got scammed by a huge amount of money and she can potentially be jailed and she will lose her job and her business would potentially crash as well.
i'm pretty sure if you were in amanda's shoes right now, us posters here in team liquid would not hesitate to help you.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
Chill, if it was possible you were going to go to jail and lose your livelihood then absolutely, I'd be the first to donate. I am willing to bet the community would leap to your defense if life had the potential to go down in flames. This is Amanda's job, freedom, and potential future (credit risk, lack of employment possibilities due to these problems, etc) we're talking about.
Because she screwed up and trusted someone she shouldn't have. I agree with Chill, just because E-Sports is tangentially related to a business screw up why would the community bail that business out? Doesn't make sense. Yeah, it sucks and I guess it's cool that people are nice/rich.
On November 15 2011 14:08 bibbaly wrote: If you guys want your money to go to a reputable charity just go to The Red Cross or Doctors without Borders, this isn't a charity, this is pan-handling and the thread title should reflect as such.
The presence of other reputable charities does not make other acts of charity less valuable or worthwhile. How people choose to spend their charitable givings is up to them. Whether that's to help a single friend in need, to volunteer time in the community, or to donate to larger non-profits. Everyone may give according to their means and their convictions. Trying to judge people based on where they choose to donate is petty.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
horrible analogy. this isn't something small--someone got scammed by a huge amount of money and she can potentially be jailed and she will lose her job and her business would potentially crash as well.
i'm pretty sure if you were in amanda's shoes right now, us posters here in team liquid would not hesitate to help you.
You are only looking at his analogy and not the second part of his post, the precedent this is setting is terrible not only for the parties involved but for the community as a whole.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
Chill, if it was possible you were going to go to jail and lose your livelihood then absolutely, I'd be the first to donate. I am willing to bet the community would leap to your defense if life had the potential to go down in flames. This is Amanda's job, freedom, and potential future (credit risk, lack of employment possibilities due to these problems, etc) we're talking about.
Because she screwed up and trusted someone she shouldn't have. I agree with Chill, just because E-Sports is tangentially related to a business screw up why would the community bail that business out? Doesn't make sense. Yeah, it sucks and I guess it's cool that people are nice/rich.
Tangentially related? The screw up's direct purpose was to organize a live event.
People enjoyed the tournament and/or feel bad for the staff who were screwed over. They could have taken better precautions, but that shouldn't completely preclude people from having sympathy, and the community has donated to other events in the past. In this case, it's to protect someone who tried to better the community by running an event.
Chill, perhaps, but IPL has staked their name on it. This isn't Gretorp asking for donations to go to Korea so he'd make lessons for people. This is a major event organizer admitting to a fuck up and relying on their community to help remedy the situation.
And even with IPL's name attached to it, there's no reason to donate even if you feel uncomfortable with the prospects of it. Yoiu can leave your stream open or simply do nothing at all and ignore it. I don't think this is setting precedent for anything. We've seen similar calls for help several times before.
My issue at hand is corporations/people not following through with their convictions. If one takes a moral stance and has the means to contribute, do so completely.
No. Not everyone is a fucking saint.
Let's say I have $500 in my pocket. This $500 is spending money left over after bills and savings. I pass by charity for the homeless. I do not see what is fucking wrong if I were to just donate $100 instead of $500 so I have $400 to spend on stuff like games, fast food/fine dining, movies, or other types of luxuries.
I want to help people but I certainly do not spend 8 hours a day in work, 5 days a week just so I can give someone all my spare cash.
Of course. You chose to donate 1/5 of what you had in your pocket to charity. That's extremely generous actually, and reflects on your character.
If IGN were like you, and they donated 1/5 of what was in their pocket (net profit for 2011) it would be $2,000,000 dollars.
But Amanda didn't need $2,000,000 dollars. She needed $7,000 more, or 0.0007% of what was in IGN's pocket. And instead of giving it to her, they chose to ask you to cough it up instead.
The bigger picture it sets a bad precedent for any event of IPL/IGN's involvement in any way/shape/form whenever they are sponsor (which doesn't give them responsibility to pay debts/obligations).
You are asking a company to shoulder instead of holding a fundraiser which is wrong. They were a sponsor, which clearly doesn't give them the responsibility but has an effect on their brand.
The action of IPL sponsoring is basically a cross promotional thing with SEA scene. PPSL is shown to the world and IPL is shown more in the SEA scene that allows it to more easily penetrate the SEA scene. That much is clear from a business standpoint. But they were a sponsor, nothing more. Making it a qualifier is a sponsorship in kind. Just because it wasn't money doesn't mean it wasn't a sponsorship in essense.
IPL hosting the fundraiser just makes it a more valid and trustworthy fundraiser. It isn't that difficult to understand. Think about it, who else would people trust to run a fund raiser for Amanda. Only a few people I could think of, IPL/IGN, TGR and Dox. Anyone else would be questionable as most wouldn't even know how they were connected and there was less of a guarantee it would actually go to aid those who PPSL was indebted to.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
Chill, if it was possible you were going to go to jail and lose your livelihood then absolutely, I'd be the first to donate. I am willing to bet the community would leap to your defense if life had the potential to go down in flames. This is Amanda's job, freedom, and potential future (credit risk, lack of employment possibilities due to these problems, etc) we're talking about.
Because she screwed up and trusted someone she shouldn't have. I agree with Chill, just because E-Sports is tangentially related to a business screw up why would the community bail that business out? Doesn't make sense. Yeah, it sucks and I guess it's cool that people are nice/rich.
how are you even telling her she screwed up? with your logic, that means IGN aso screwed up?
there is no one to blame here but the culprit guz ledesma. everybody else is a victim.
no one is forcing you to donate. if you don't donate, then that is fine and there is no problem with that. keyword "forcing".
On November 15 2011 14:08 bibbaly wrote: If you guys want your money to go to a reputable charity just go to The Red Cross or Doctors without Borders, this isn't a charity, this is pan-handling and the thread title should reflect as such.
Panhandling implies that we are giving something away for nothing in return. Please note that we are getting to watch the ppsl matches in return for this.
In part i never asked IGN to put up something like this for us as i didnt know till about a couple of hrs or so prior the start of the event that there was going to be an event. A lot of people do not agree with what the people in the community have been doing as far as shelling out money, wtching the streams etc but point i am most grateful as to whats happening now as we never thought this will be the result of informing the community whats been happening. Never in a million years did i think this was gonna happen
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
horrible analogy. this isn't something small--someone got scammed by a huge amount of money and she can potentially be jailed and she will lose her job and her business would potentially crash as well.
i'm pretty sure if you were in amanda's shoes right now, us posters here in team liquid would not hesitate to help you.
You are only looking at his analogy and not the second part of his post, the precedent this is setting is terrible not only for the parties involved but for the community as a whole.
Neither you nor Chill elaborate on why. The only thing we're left to assume is you're arguing the slippery slope. As though, any time someone ends up getting screwed the community would suddenly be "forced" to pay for it with charity streams. That doesn't make sense. Nor does it hold up when you look at recent examples.
Did donating money to bring MKP to MLG lead to tons of drives to bring other players to MLG? No. Did donating money to help Day9 pay for college lead to tons of drives to pay off major expenses for other community pillars? No.
There's no reason to expect that this will turn into a slippery slope. There's little precedent (especially in SC2) for volunteers to be scammed so severely. This isn't a few hundred dollars, it's over ten grand. That's a staggering amount of fraud and something that I personally would not be able to weather financially, nor would many of the readers here.
If you're going to say it's a bad precedent, at least explain HOW you think it will lead to some grand slipper slope. Because what I see here is a very bad situation occurred, and the community stepped up to right a wrong. I don't see a more sinister plot unfolding.
On November 15 2011 14:08 bibbaly wrote: If you guys want your money to go to a reputable charity just go to The Red Cross or Doctors without Borders, this isn't a charity, this is pan-handling and the thread title should reflect as such.
The presence of other reputable charities does not make other acts of charity less valuable or worthwhile. How people choose to spend their charitable givings is up to them. Whether that's to help a single friend in need, to volunteer time in the community, or to donate to larger non-profits. Everyone may give according to their means and their convictions. Trying to judge people based on where they choose to donate is petty.
True, if people want to give money to IGN then go ahead make yourself feel better, but it is shit like this that is damaging to the community. IGN wants the community to pay for the mistake when the facts surrounding this case are few and far between.
My issue at hand is corporations/people not following through with their convictions. If one takes a moral stance and has the means to contribute, do so completely.
No. Not everyone is a fucking saint.
Let's say I have $500 in my pocket. This $500 is spending money left over after bills and savings. I pass by charity for the homeless. I do not see what is fucking wrong if I were to just donate $100 instead of $500 so I have $400 to spend on stuff like games, fast food/fine dining, movies, or other types of luxuries.
I want to help people but I certainly do not spend 8 hours a day in work, 5 days a week just so I can give someone all my spare cash.
Of course. You chose to donate 1/5 of what you had in your pocket to charity. That's extremely generous actually, and reflects on your character.
If IGN were like you, and they donated 1/5 of what was in their pocket (net profit for 2011) it would be $2,000,000 dollars.
But Amanda didn't need $2,000,000 dollars. She needed $7,000 more, or 0.0007% of what was in IGN's pocket. And instead of giving it to her, they chose to ask you to cough it up instead.
Agreed.
If you own factories all over the world and one of your newly hired factory managers fucked up and is now down $10k on wages, it's your responsibility to front those wages and discipline that factory manager.
In any other realm except "ESPORTS" this would be utterly ridiculous, but apparently the mindless following can see no wrong in those "helping esports".
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
horrible analogy. this isn't something small--someone got scammed by a huge amount of money and she can potentially be jailed and she will lose her job and her business would potentially crash as well.
i'm pretty sure if you were in amanda's shoes right now, us posters here in team liquid would not hesitate to help you.
You are only looking at his analogy and not the second part of his post, the precedent this is setting is terrible not only for the parties involved but for the community as a whole.
Neither you nor Chill elaborate on why. The only thing we're left to assume is you're arguing the slippery slope. As though, any time someone ends up getting screwed the community would suddenly be "forced" to pay for it with charity streams. That doesn't make sense. Nor does it hold up when you look at recent examples.
Did donating money to bring MKP to MLG lead to tons of drives to bring other players to MLG? No. Did donating money to help Day9 pay for college lead to tons of drives to pay off major expenses for other community pillars? No.
There's no reason to expect that this will turn into a slippery slope. There's little precedent (especially in SC2) for volunteers to be scammed so severely. This isn't a few hundred dollars, it's over ten grand. That's a staggering amount of fraud and something that I personally would not be able to weather financially, nor would many of the readers here.
If you're going to say it's a bad precedent, at least explain HOW you think it will lead to some grand slipper slope. Because what I see here is a very bad situation occurred, and the community stepped up to right a wrong. I don't see a more sinister plot unfolding.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
horrible analogy. this isn't something small--someone got scammed by a huge amount of money and she can potentially be jailed and she will lose her job and her business would potentially crash as well.
i'm pretty sure if you were in amanda's shoes right now, us posters here in team liquid would not hesitate to help you.
You are only looking at his analogy and not the second part of his post, the precedent this is setting is terrible not only for the parties involved but for the community as a whole.
Neither you nor Chill elaborate on why. The only thing we're left to assume is you're arguing the slippery slope. As though, any time someone ends up getting screwed the community would suddenly be "forced" to pay for it with charity streams. That doesn't make sense. Nor does it hold up when you look at recent examples.
Did donating money to bring MKP to MLG lead to tons of drives to bring other players to MLG? No. Did donating money to help Day9 pay for college lead to tons of drives to pay off major expenses for other community pillars? No.
There's no reason to expect that this will turn into a slippery slope. There's little precedent (especially in SC2) for volunteers to be scammed so severely. This isn't a few hundred dollars, it's over ten grand. That's a staggering amount of fraud and something that I personally would not be able to weather financially, nor would many of the readers here.
If you're going to say it's a bad precedent, at least explain HOW you think it will lead to some grand slipper slope. Because what I see here is a very bad situation occurred, and the community stepped up to right a wrong. I don't see a more sinister plot unfolding.
THE PRECEDENT SHOULD BE SET THAT IF YOU SCAM YOU WILL BE PUNISHED TO THE FULL EXTENT OF THE LAW AND NOT LET OFF THE HOOK FORCING OTHERS TO DEAL WITH YOUR SHIT.
Yesssss! I was looking for something like this all weekend I there a possibility of editing the OP so that we can know how much mulah has been accumulated?
For all people who are hating on this thread: People who donate do it out of good will. I'm certain that we are all aware that our sole source of information comes from the internet. So if we decide to donate, it is most probably not because we are conned by sweet talk. We are doing this because we love e-sports and because we want to help someone who is in need. We are doing this because we trust that IPL will put this money to good use. We have no concrete irrefutable proof they aren't lying (our info comes from the internet); we are operating solely based on our trust of IPL and the famous casters behind them. So please stop telling us we are making a dumb move.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
horrible analogy. this isn't something small--someone got scammed by a huge amount of money and she can potentially be jailed and she will lose her job and her business would potentially crash as well.
i'm pretty sure if you were in amanda's shoes right now, us posters here in team liquid would not hesitate to help you.
You are only looking at his analogy and not the second part of his post, the precedent this is setting is terrible not only for the parties involved but for the community as a whole.
Neither you nor Chill elaborate on why. The only thing we're left to assume is you're arguing the slippery slope. As though, any time someone ends up getting screwed the community would suddenly be "forced" to pay for it with charity streams. That doesn't make sense. Nor does it hold up when you look at recent examples.
Did donating money to bring MKP to MLG lead to tons of drives to bring other players to MLG? No. Did donating money to help Day9 pay for college lead to tons of drives to pay off major expenses for other community pillars? No.
There's no reason to expect that this will turn into a slippery slope. There's little precedent (especially in SC2) for volunteers to be scammed so severely. This isn't a few hundred dollars, it's over ten grand. That's a staggering amount of fraud and something that I personally would not be able to weather financially, nor would many of the readers here.
If you're going to say it's a bad precedent, at least explain HOW you think it will lead to some grand slipper slope. Because what I see here is a very bad situation occurred, and the community stepped up to right a wrong. I don't see a more sinister plot unfolding.
Like I posted earlier, it may send the message that people can take bigger risks in terms of tournament sponsoring since they know the community will bail them out if something goes wrong.
Blaming IGN for not paying the rest of the debt is bullshit. Haters might as well sue Apple for not helping pull some third-world countries out of hunger and poverty.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
horrible analogy. this isn't something small--someone got scammed by a huge amount of money and she can potentially be jailed and she will lose her job and her business would potentially crash as well.
i'm pretty sure if you were in amanda's shoes right now, us posters here in team liquid would not hesitate to help you.
You are only looking at his analogy and not the second part of his post, the precedent this is setting is terrible not only for the parties involved but for the community as a whole.
Neither you nor Chill elaborate on why. The only thing we're left to assume is you're arguing the slippery slope. As though, any time someone ends up getting screwed the community would suddenly be "forced" to pay for it with charity streams. That doesn't make sense. Nor does it hold up when you look at recent examples.
Did donating money to bring MKP to MLG lead to tons of drives to bring other players to MLG? No. Did donating money to help Day9 pay for college lead to tons of drives to pay off major expenses for other community pillars? No.
There's no reason to expect that this will turn into a slippery slope. There's little precedent (especially in SC2) for volunteers to be scammed so severely. This isn't a few hundred dollars, it's over ten grand. That's a staggering amount of fraud and something that I personally would not be able to weather financially, nor would many of the readers here.
If you're going to say it's a bad precedent, at least explain HOW you think it will lead to some grand slipper slope. Because what I see here is a very bad situation occurred, and the community stepped up to right a wrong. I don't see a more sinister plot unfolding.
Like I posted earlier, it may send the message that people can take bigger risks in terms of tournament sponsoring since they know the community will bail them out if something goes wrong.
I'd HIGHLY imagine this entire incident would already cause all sponsors to take a closer look at who they sponsor. This community event would not do anything to fix that scar already.
My issue at hand is corporations/people not following through with their convictions. If one takes a moral stance and has the means to contribute, do so completely.
No. Not everyone is a fucking saint.
Let's say I have $500 in my pocket. This $500 is spending money left over after bills and savings. I pass by charity for the homeless. I do not see what is fucking wrong if I were to just donate $100 instead of $500 so I have $400 to spend on stuff like games, fast food/fine dining, movies, or other types of luxuries.
I want to help people but I certainly do not spend 8 hours a day in work, 5 days a week just so I can give someone all my spare cash.
Of course. You chose to donate 1/5 of what you had in your pocket to charity. That's extremely generous actually, and reflects on your character.
If IGN were like you, and they donated 1/5 of what was in their pocket (net profit for 2011) it would be $2,000,000 dollars.
But Amanda didn't need $2,000,000 dollars. She needed $7,000 more, or 0.0007% of what was in IGN's pocket. And instead of giving it to her, they chose to ask you to cough it up instead.
The amount is immaterial. Your statement pretty much says that if I decide to contribute to a charity I have to give 100% or I'm "not sticking with my convictions" as you put it. I could have donated the entire $500, contributed my spare time making homes or working in a soup kitchen.
So IGN isn't setting 20% of their money, so what? I didn't set aside 20% of what I can give for this cause either, what I donated was much smaller than that. And while I'm sure there were people here who may have contributed 100%, there also are people who gave away a portion of their spare change, however big or small that portion was.
If you're saying that anyone being charitable must give as much as they can, that'll just result in less donations. Charities work because people can give small amounts.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
Chill, if it was possible you were going to go to jail and lose your livelihood then absolutely, I'd be the first to donate. I am willing to bet the community would leap to your defense if life had the potential to go down in flames. This is Amanda's job, freedom, and potential future (credit risk, lack of employment possibilities due to these problems, etc) we're talking about.
Because she screwed up and trusted someone she shouldn't have. I agree with Chill, just because E-Sports is tangentially related to a business screw up why would the community bail that business out? Doesn't make sense. Yeah, it sucks and I guess it's cool that people are nice/rich.
how are you even telling her she screwed up? with your logic, that means IGN aso screwed up?
there is no one to blame here but the culprit guz ledesma. everybody else is a victim.
no one is forcing you to donate. if you don't donate, then that is fine and there is no problem with that. keyword "forcing".
IGN/David Ting admitted to the screw, hence the first and original apology by IGN/IPL for what was the travesty of a qualifier. If you really want to know if IGN did screw up.
the Amanduh (Amanda the travel agent for PPSL) that posts here also says she did screw up on her end that she trusted to much which is why she is left with the debt for the tickets (the main reason why this fund raiser was put in place by IPL/IGN).
So there were screw ups on certain parties, but of course, no one is saying that Gus didn't. So I don't see that the problem is in saying that they also did when it is true. We are not badgering them that they are anymore. Some are just concerned that the fund raiser may set a bad precedent for the e-sport scene screw ups.
My only issue with this whole thing is this: The donations are time sensitive and Amanda must be helped asap, but there are soo few details about anything. And that combination can make for some really strange things, as often happens when people make snap decisions about things with little information.
I think it's great that the community can help out Amanda and assuming everything with this situation stays as is, then there's nothing more to it - it was a nice gesture from the community.
I hate playing the what if game but in these kinds of situations there are so many variables and facts unaccounted for and it makes me nervous.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
horrible analogy. this isn't something small--someone got scammed by a huge amount of money and she can potentially be jailed and she will lose her job and her business would potentially crash as well.
i'm pretty sure if you were in amanda's shoes right now, us posters here in team liquid would not hesitate to help you.
You are only looking at his analogy and not the second part of his post, the precedent this is setting is terrible not only for the parties involved but for the community as a whole.
Neither you nor Chill elaborate on why. The only thing we're left to assume is you're arguing the slippery slope. As though, any time someone ends up getting screwed the community would suddenly be "forced" to pay for it with charity streams. That doesn't make sense. Nor does it hold up when you look at recent examples.
Did donating money to bring MKP to MLG lead to tons of drives to bring other players to MLG? No. Did donating money to help Day9 pay for college lead to tons of drives to pay off major expenses for other community pillars? No.
There's no reason to expect that this will turn into a slippery slope. There's little precedent (especially in SC2) for volunteers to be scammed so severely. This isn't a few hundred dollars, it's over ten grand. That's a staggering amount of fraud and something that I personally would not be able to weather financially, nor would many of the readers here.
If you're going to say it's a bad precedent, at least explain HOW you think it will lead to some grand slipper slope. Because what I see here is a very bad situation occurred, and the community stepped up to right a wrong. I don't see a more sinister plot unfolding.
Like I posted earlier, it may send the message that people can take bigger risks in terms of tournament sponsoring since they know the community will bail them out if something goes wrong.
People will grow tired of this very quickly, and anyone who does that in the future and doesn't get bailed out deserves to be screwed.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
Bad fucking taste, you are mocking the people who are donating by saying this..
I understand why it might seem like this is creating a 'moral hazard' for future tournament organizers to take bigger risks, but I don't buy that this will translate into actual people expecting to collect money from the community if things go poorly.
Those involved would have to concoct some incredibly elaborate story beforehand about how the debts owed are not really their fault, complete with a description of how they got scammed and some documentation to back that up. IPL isn't collecting money just because a debt is owed. It is critically important to this initiative that it seems like a good faith agreement was breached.
Is anyone really going to spend that much time planning out how they will scam the community?
Further, the Starcraft community isn't a monolithic force like the US government. Its amorphous and there is really no telling what it will do beforehand. It seems like a very shaky thing to rely on when it comes to finances. Even if "the community" were to tacitly 'guarantee' every SC2 tournament that is run in 2012, would that really amount to anything? The thing is that we can't really set a 'precedent.' Unlike the supreme court, if something like this happens in the future it is still up to each individual to decide to donate or not. There is no stare decisis on TL.net. Ultimately, each situation will speak for it self and individuals will decide what they each want to do and I'm okay with that, whatever they decide.
On November 15 2011 14:21 Manifesto7 wrote: I wonder if Gus got her headset too.
gus has a macbook air and razer banshee lol.
I do have a simple headset with a mic on it... >_< ive never seem rzer items till the event actually started (see how simple a brain i have lol)
17sphynx17 thanks for being very vocal though. Been reading your posts here and there. Again i can only disclose so Much. Im sure after the event IGN and i will coordinate again. So a new statement will be released.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
horrible analogy. this isn't something small--someone got scammed by a huge amount of money and she can potentially be jailed and she will lose her job and her business would potentially crash as well.
i'm pretty sure if you were in amanda's shoes right now, us posters here in team liquid would not hesitate to help you.
So your gonna place negative comments/remarks on the sponser for cleaning up another organizers mess? I called this "charity" stream since the second there was overdue debts, because I know that IGN is the company that cares and take a bit of that extra effort.
Though, might this be a blow to us, the starcraft community, hearts. Explaining this situation that some random person is fucked by someone else is hard to a corporation focused on basic bottom lines..
So, instead of lets talking on this subject any more, lets just view the stream, take off the adblock, and do what we can as friends/community FOR our friend IN the community.
Are we not allowed to sympathize with an individual who was taken advantage of financially while trying to bring something to esports? She invested in US and without prior suspect of the PPSL was taken advantage of. I honestly don't understand the issues Chill or others have been having with IPL's drive for Amanda. It's money we expected her to have and IPL nor Twitch are receiving any money from this. To think the drive was a scam you would have to expect Amanda, IPL, and Twitch to have fostered a plan to take $5000 plus from the community at the expense of their reputation, their viewers, and their business.
On November 15 2011 14:21 lowziqian wrote: Blaming IGN for not paying the rest of the debt is bullshit. Haters might as well sue Apple for not helping pull some third-world countries out of hunger and poverty.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
Bad fucking taste, you are mocking the people who are donating by saying this..
So what? People can do what they like, but bailing someone out of a bad business decision isn't the role of the community. I would call the people that donated foolish.
The fact that IGN is promoting this stream leaves a bad taste in my mouth too. It feels like they are shrugging off responsibility. If this was something organic from the community I would feel a bit better about it.
It isn't anything person with Amanda, but she is in business. Do business properly or pay the consequences.
On November 15 2011 14:21 Manifesto7 wrote: I wonder if Gus got her headset too.
gus has a macbook air and razer banshee lol.
I do have a simple headset with a mic on it... >_< ive never seem rzer items till the event actually started (see how simple a brain i have lol)
17sphynx17 thanks for being very vocal though. Been reading your posts here and there. Again i can only disclose so Much. Im sure after the event IGN and i will coordinate again. So a new statement will be released.
haha don't worry about it kabayan
hope everything gets fixed soon and try not to stress out about it.
I also want to point out that a lot of people probably feel like they should support this because it is a mistake that they might also make. I think in this situation I might have made the same decisions as those people that got screwed by this. If it were obvious that no one should have trusted this operation, then there wouldn't be near as much sympathy.
I like how a lot of people are forgetting that she's a victim in this situation. Yeah sure she's under fault partially because she trusted Gus in the first place. But this was before the entire fiasco happened. Everybody involved trusted Gus. IPL, all of the sponsors, all the staff, players, casters. Everybody was under the impression that, as the organizer of the event, Gus would be more than able to make everything work. NOBODY suspected he'd take the money and run. It's never happened before, it'll probably never happen again. But that still doesn't change the fact that Amanda's still a victim and is in no way liable to any scrutiny. It's not a bailout in the negative sense since she in no way had control over the situation she found herself in.
I wonder why does all these people here like chill who are talking about moral in this thread. You guys can hold another thread to discuss all you want there. If you like it donate, if you dont like it dont. The community for starcraft is not stupid, we are all at least a degree holder, we are thinkers.
I don't like the idea of people arguing against donating money. If you want to do it then do it, if not then that too is your choice. Don't shit on people for trying to help someone. Good luck with the stream and keep us updated on things.
On November 15 2011 14:23 Charger wrote: My only issue with this whole thing is this: The donations are time sensitive and Amanda must be helped asap, but there are soo few details about anything. And that combination can make for some really strange things, as often happens when people make snap decisions about things with little information.
I think it's great that the community can help out Amanda and assuming everything with this situation stays as is, then there's nothing more to it - it was a nice gesture from the community.
I hate playing the what if game but in these kinds of situations there are so many variables and facts unaccounted for and it makes me nervous.
I apologize as i can only release so much info. As u can see there have been many threads but not once have i even written any.. I chose to be quiet as i myself wanted to give Gus a chance to speak out in behalf of the team... Which i dont know when (i suppose)
My main point in creating the account was to expess as much as i can as i am quite overwhelmed how this all happened and obviously quite grateful.
My issue at hand is corporations/people not following through with their convictions. If one takes a moral stance and has the means to contribute, do so completely.
No. Not everyone is a fucking saint.
Let's say I have $500 in my pocket. This $500 is spending money left over after bills and savings. I pass by charity for the homeless. I do not see what is fucking wrong if I were to just donate $100 instead of $500 so I have $400 to spend on stuff like games, fast food/fine dining, movies, or other types of luxuries.
I want to help people but I certainly do not spend 8 hours a day in work, 5 days a week just so I can give someone all my spare cash.
Of course. You chose to donate 1/5 of what you had in your pocket to charity. That's extremely generous actually, and reflects on your character.
If IGN were like you, and they donated 1/5 of what was in their pocket (net profit for 2011) it would be $2,000,000 dollars.
But Amanda didn't need $2,000,000 dollars. She needed $7,000 more, or 0.0007% of what was in IGN's pocket. And instead of giving it to her, they chose to ask you to cough it up instead.
Agreed.
If you own factories all over the world and one of your newly hired factory managers fucked up and is now down $10k on wages, it's your responsibility to front those wages and discipline that factory manager.
In any other realm except "ESPORTS" this would be utterly ridiculous, but apparently the mindless following can see no wrong in those "helping esports".
you guys are all forgetting that IGN is more than just IPL, IPL is just a division of a larger company. They have a budget to work with...spending more in one place means cutting down on others. If the IPL division of IGN goes over budget, or doesn't have enough money to provide quality results..what do you think will happen to them?
On November 15 2011 14:28 slytown wrote: Are we not allowed to sympathize with an individual who was taken advantage of financially while trying to bring something to esports? She invested in US and without prior suspect of the PPSL was taken advantage of. I honestly don't understand the issues Chill or others have been having with IPL's drive for Amanda. It's money we expected her to have and IPL nor Twitch are receiving any money from this. To think the drive was a scam you would have to expect Amanda, IPL, and Twitch to have fostered a plan to take $5000 plus from the community at the expense of their reputation, their viewers, and their business.
I find it strange that people who sympathize with the situation become instinctively defensive when other people give an opinion that defers from their own. Chill among others is not saying you can't donate. you can do whatever the hell you want. they just don't agree with this precedence for donation set by IGN. i mean you can ask the same rhetorical question: are they not allowed to have their own opinions?
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
Bad fucking taste, you are mocking the people who are donating by saying this..
So what? People can do what they like, but bailing someone out of a bad business decision isn't the role of the community. I would call the people that donated foolish.
The fact that IGN is promoting this stream leaves a bad taste in my mouth too. It feels like they are shrugging off responsibility. If this was something organic from the community I would feel a bit better about it.
It isn't anything person with Amanda, but she is in business. Do business properly or pay the consequences.
A business decision implies that she took a measured risk with the chance to make a return on her investment. In what way do you imply she was trying to profit off of this situation? She was helping to organize an event and expected to be reimbursed. She wasn't trying to turn a profit here. If she was expecting to make a profit, and she lost money, of course, that's on her.
She was helping PPSL. She was scammed for $10,000. That's not a business decision. That's a crime.
I think someone that would call people foolish for wanting to help someone like that is callous.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
horrible analogy. this isn't something small--someone got scammed by a huge amount of money and she can potentially be jailed and she will lose her job and her business would potentially crash as well.
i'm pretty sure if you were in amanda's shoes right now, us posters here in team liquid would not hesitate to help you.
So your gonna place negative comments/remarks on the sponser for cleaning up another organizers mess? I called this "charity" stream since the second there was overdue debts, because I know that IGN is the company that cares and take a bit of that extra effort.
Though, might this be a blow to us, the starcraft community, hearts. Explaining this situation that some random person is fucked by someone else is hard to a corporation focused on basic bottom lines..
So, instead of lets talking on this subject any more, lets just view the stream, take off the adblock, and do what we can as friends/community FOR our friend IN the community.
wait, are you replying to my post or chill's? im confused. i never placed negative comments/remarks on any of the sponsor.
but, i agree with you--in times like these, community needs to help each other out.
On November 15 2011 14:31 IntoTheSnow wrote: I wonder why does all these people here like chill who are talking about moral in this thread. You guys can hold another thread to discuss all you want there. If you like it donate, if you dont like it dont. The community for starcraft is not stupid, we are all at least a degree holder, we are thinkers.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
Bad fucking taste, you are mocking the people who are donating by saying this..
So what? People can do what they like, but bailing someone out of a bad business decision isn't the role of the community. I would call the people that donated foolish.
The fact that IGN is promoting this stream leaves a bad taste in my mouth too. It feels like they are shrugging off responsibility. If this was something organic from the community I would feel a bit better about it.
It isn't anything person with Amanda, but she is in business. Do business properly or pay the consequences.
Why let IGN promote the stream on this website then? If you do not like what they are doing to this community why let them continue? This is flatout begging the community, nothing else.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
Bad fucking taste, you are mocking the people who are donating by saying this..
So what? People can do what they like, but bailing someone out of a bad business decision isn't the role of the community. I would call the people that donated foolish.
The fact that IGN is promoting this stream leaves a bad taste in my mouth too. It feels like they are shrugging off responsibility. If this was something organic from the community I would feel a bit better about it.
It isn't anything person with Amanda, but she is in business. Do business properly or pay the consequences.
A business decision implies that she took a measured risk with the chance to make a return on her investment. In what way do you imply she was trying to profit off of this situation? She was helping to organize an event and expected to be reimbursed. She wasn't trying to turn a profit here. If she was expecting to make a profit, and she lost money, of course, that's on her.
She was helping PPSL. She was scammed for $10,000. That's not a business decision. That's a crime.
I think someone that would call people foolish for wanting to help someone like that is callous.
the business gave him the tickets without requiring him to pay upfront. no travel agency i have ever dealt with has ever allowed me to do that. that was a business risk (and i do say a very stupid risk as we now see).
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
Bad fucking taste, you are mocking the people who are donating by saying this..
So what? People can do what they like, but bailing someone out of a bad business decision isn't the role of the community. I would call the people that donated foolish.
The fact that IGN is promoting this stream leaves a bad taste in my mouth too. It feels like they are shrugging off responsibility. If this was something organic from the community I would feel a bit better about it.
It isn't anything person with Amanda, but she is in business. Do business properly or pay the consequences.
Well it's because they were sort of involved... it's not their fault in any way, but they had their hand in mix, they were part of the whole project that went down, and they hate that this thing they tried to create ended up screwing someone over. That leaves a bad taste in THEIR mouth. I consider IPL enough of a part of the community to feel like this is coming from us a community and as a whole. This isn't some 3rd party getting money out of us, it IS us, we are all part of making IPL what it is. I can certainly understand why you might think it's not our role as a community, and it's your choice of whether to donate or not. And that's fine. But it's not fine to call charitable people foolish for being charitable.
At the end of the day someone got fucked because of something they did to contribute to esports, and the people who love esports stood up and said FUCK THAT.
On November 15 2011 13:34 17Sphynx17 wrote: Well in the philippines, as long as every paperwork is in order, it can be put to trial for failure to meet with obligation. Might have to start with arbitration first but there should be no stopping it from getting traction.
The problem with how stuff is done here in the philippines is most avoid the paper trail to avoid paying taxes. Contracts are not notarized and just appear as a "formal" agreement between 2 parties. It is true that once signed, it should be honored, but if its not notarized, and not witnessed, then it should not be "legally" binding in certain cases.
Trust is what most work on here in the philippines. While I believe SnixSniPe's family's experience shows a side of the how it can happen, it is possible to work harmoniously.
But there really is a risk in it. A friend of mine once said, "if you plan on doing business, don't do it with friends or family as you run the risk of losing the relationship once money is involved." Which is for the most part true because agruements/disagreements will happen once money is involved as both have a vested interest.
I still believe Gus just mismanaged everything and didn't account for the total cash that was/would be available to the PPSL Event and just ran with it.
I still expect a statement from Team AZK regarding the matter as it is still them who is still involved and a party to the "organizing body" who has still not made any official statement. One post here said they would rather work on it on the sidelines and clear the mess up.
If amanduh is the real Amanda then again, an official statement would be nice. And if she is in touch with any of the leaders of Team AZK then I hope she can tell them to release an official statement. They are still trying to dodge the issue, at least to me which is still wrong.
So Team AZK needs to clear the mess up and confront the issue like the ones raised on the blog, if it is true or false.
Just my 2 cents.
Hey yup.. Im the amanda referred to in the thread (i bravely say this as along with what everyones doing a lot of people flame me as well). I cannot represent azk as a whole. I myself have no statement from gus either. Wherever the initial funds went i have no concrete idea other than the php 215,000 that has been paid off officially from friday. As much as id like to clear up what i know from my end i again can only stand up for a small portion of Team AZK.
So you're a travel agent and a part of Team AZK? Have you previously been in charge of travel arrangements for team AZK?
And if you were owed $12,000 USD for the travel expenses and you were paid $215,000 PHP, which equals approximately $5,000, then you are now $7,000 in the hole, which is the amount that IPL has already said it has allocated for you in the original post. That seems to equal your original $12,000 USD debt. What exactly is the purpose of this fundraiser if your expenses have already been covered when taking into consideration the $7,000 IPL still owes? I'm not trying to harp on you, I'm just trying to get the facts straight, which seem to be in short supply.
I'd like to jump in with a quote from another thread:
This is a message from Amanda who is possibly facing jail if this is not resolved imminently: I issued a total of php 715,000 worth of tickets. 200,000 has been paid, so the outstanding debt is close to php 516,000. Told gunrun already and like im really hoping people in the community can help as being jailed is a possibility for me. I am connected to a travel agency that is why.
My issue at hand is corporations/people not following through with their convictions. If one takes a moral stance and has the means to contribute, do so completely.
No. Not everyone is a fucking saint.
Let's say I have $500 in my pocket. This $500 is spending money left over after bills and savings. I pass by charity for the homeless. I do not see what is fucking wrong if I were to just donate $100 instead of $500 so I have $400 to spend on stuff like games, fast food/fine dining, movies, or other types of luxuries.
I want to help people but I certainly do not spend 8 hours a day in work, 5 days a week just so I can give someone all my spare cash.
Of course. You chose to donate 1/5 of what you had in your pocket to charity. That's extremely generous actually, and reflects on your character.
If IGN were like you, and they donated 1/5 of what was in their pocket (net profit for 2011) it would be $2,000,000 dollars.
But Amanda didn't need $2,000,000 dollars. She needed $7,000 more, or 0.0007% of what was in IGN's pocket. And instead of giving it to her, they chose to ask you to cough it up instead.
For the third time, what is IPL's bank right now. What's 20% of their available bank to spend right now?
IGN does not have the same responsibilities as IPL - they give IPL funding, and that funding I would imagine has already been assigned for 2012.
IPL = IGN Pro League. The benefits and profits of the IGN Pro League go to directly to IGN. If you're trying to state that IGN lets their project operate independently of itself then you're wrong. Until IGN Pro League receives articles of incorporation and is completely independent of IGN, then the IGN Pro League is still part of IGN.
Project Budgeting? Are you serious? Let's drop the excuses. It's called some bald accountant in an office has use his God-given opposable thumb to write "7,000 charity, Amanda", and he does that when X Director says "do it". It's that simple. If you don't think it is, then you haven't worked in corporate America.
Arguments where people say it was a bad business decision or someone else should bail her out have nothing to do with why I personally donated. At the end of the day this is to help someone out of a shitty situation regardless of how she got there.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
Bad fucking taste, you are mocking the people who are donating by saying this..
So what? People can do what they like, but bailing someone out of a bad business decision isn't the role of the community. I would call the people that donated foolish.
The fact that IGN is promoting this stream leaves a bad taste in my mouth too. It feels like they are shrugging off responsibility. If this was something organic from the community I would feel a bit better about it.
It isn't anything person with Amanda, but she is in business. Do business properly or pay the consequences.
Considering the trust beforehand, I don't see how your statement is reasoned. So because of one asshole she should lose her job? Is it wrong for IPl to feel guilty and want to help a partner in the PPSL, when IPL didn't lose the money? Actually, I'm not sure if IPL did lose money and were only doing the drive for Amanda. Are we sure on that?
Either way, this drive actually sets a great precedent. It shows how supportive the community is when things are tough. We can't let one shitty incident like this stop us from reaching out to other communities.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
Bad fucking taste, you are mocking the people who are donating by saying this..
So what? People can do what they like, but bailing someone out of a bad business decision isn't the role of the community. I would call the people that donated foolish.
The fact that IGN is promoting this stream leaves a bad taste in my mouth too. It feels like they are shrugging off responsibility. If this was something organic from the community I would feel a bit better about it.
It isn't anything person with Amanda, but she is in business. Do business properly or pay the consequences.
Well, IPL actually used their own stream and their own casters and tech crew for this whole night's show, and will give up all of the revenue they get for this day of streaming. They are streaming replays from games that originally would have been streamed on the two days of the PPSL event, that they will never get the revenue from. So you could see it as them not really promoting a special charity stream, but only that paypal button on their page.
My issue at hand is corporations/people not following through with their convictions. If one takes a moral stance and has the means to contribute, do so completely.
No. Not everyone is a fucking saint.
Let's say I have $500 in my pocket. This $500 is spending money left over after bills and savings. I pass by charity for the homeless. I do not see what is fucking wrong if I were to just donate $100 instead of $500 so I have $400 to spend on stuff like games, fast food/fine dining, movies, or other types of luxuries.
I want to help people but I certainly do not spend 8 hours a day in work, 5 days a week just so I can give someone all my spare cash.
Of course. You chose to donate 1/5 of what you had in your pocket to charity. That's extremely generous actually, and reflects on your character.
If IGN were like you, and they donated 1/5 of what was in their pocket (net profit for 2011) it would be $2,000,000 dollars.
But Amanda didn't need $2,000,000 dollars. She needed $7,000 more, or 0.0007% of what was in IGN's pocket. And instead of giving it to her, they chose to ask you to cough it up instead.
The amount is immaterial. Your statement pretty much says that if I decide to contribute to a charity I have to give 100% or I'm "not sticking with my convictions" as you put it. I could have donated the entire $500, contributed my spare time making homes or working in a soup kitchen.
So IGN isn't setting 20% of their money, so what? I didn't set aside 20% of what I can give for this cause either, what I donated was much smaller than that. And while I'm sure there were people here who may have contributed 100%, there also are people who gave away a portion of their spare change, however big or small that portion was.
If you're saying that anyone being charitable must give as much as they can, that'll just result in less donations. Charities work because people can give small amounts.
0.0007% of the profit man. Just remmeber that number. It's IGN's right to do what they want, but it doesn't mean that I'm going to sit back and listen to IGN complain that they can't afford 0.0007% of their profits and need the help of (mostly) young people and college students to chip in.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
Bad fucking taste, you are mocking the people who are donating by saying this..
So what? People can do what they like, but bailing someone out of a bad business decision isn't the role of the community. I would call the people that donated foolish.
The fact that IGN is promoting this stream leaves a bad taste in my mouth too. It feels like they are shrugging off responsibility. If this was something organic from the community I would feel a bit better about it.
It isn't anything person with Amanda, but she is in business. Do business properly or pay the consequences.
Well, IPL actually used their own stream and their own casters and tech crew for this whole night's show, and will give up all of the revenue they get for this day of streaming. They are streaming replays from games that originally would have been streamed on the two days of the PPSL event, that they will never get the revenue from. So you could see it as them not really promoting a special charity stream, but only that paypal button on their page.
My issue at hand is corporations/people not following through with their convictions. If one takes a moral stance and has the means to contribute, do so completely.
No. Not everyone is a fucking saint.
Let's say I have $500 in my pocket. This $500 is spending money left over after bills and savings. I pass by charity for the homeless. I do not see what is fucking wrong if I were to just donate $100 instead of $500 so I have $400 to spend on stuff like games, fast food/fine dining, movies, or other types of luxuries.
I want to help people but I certainly do not spend 8 hours a day in work, 5 days a week just so I can give someone all my spare cash.
Of course. You chose to donate 1/5 of what you had in your pocket to charity. That's extremely generous actually, and reflects on your character.
If IGN were like you, and they donated 1/5 of what was in their pocket (net profit for 2011) it would be $2,000,000 dollars.
But Amanda didn't need $2,000,000 dollars. She needed $7,000 more, or 0.0007% of what was in IGN's pocket. And instead of giving it to her, they chose to ask you to cough it up instead.
The amount is immaterial. Your statement pretty much says that if I decide to contribute to a charity I have to give 100% or I'm "not sticking with my convictions" as you put it. I could have donated the entire $500, contributed my spare time making homes or working in a soup kitchen.
So IGN isn't setting 20% of their money, so what? I didn't set aside 20% of what I can give for this cause either, what I donated was much smaller than that. And while I'm sure there were people here who may have contributed 100%, there also are people who gave away a portion of their spare change, however big or small that portion was.
If you're saying that anyone being charitable must give as much as they can, that'll just result in less donations. Charities work because people can give small amounts.
0.0007% of the profit man. Just remmeber that number. It's IGN's right to do what they want, but it doesn't mean that I'm going to sit back and listen to IGN complain that they can't afford 0.0007% of their profits and need the help of (mostly) young people and college students to chip in.
You keep spouting these financial numbers, but a cursory search on my behalf doesn't reveal any data about IGN's operating profits or IPL's budget. Do you have a source for your numbers? I'm honestly curious. Not that it changes anything, of course. I don't think IGN has done anything wrong. Lending credibility to the drive as well as donating ad revenue and handling the transfer of the money to appropriate parties is more than would be expected of them.
IGN isn't "complaining" that they don't have the cash, the IPL is. You seem to be confusing a department in a company for the entire company.
The IPL doesn't have the spare resources to pay the remaining $5K balance. So they're organizing a charity drive. How is that hard to understand? For someone with a background in business I'd expect a bit more attention to detail.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
Chill, if it was possible you were going to go to jail and lose your livelihood then absolutely, I'd be the first to donate. I am willing to bet the community would leap to your defense if life had the potential to go down in flames. This is Amanda's job, freedom, and potential future (credit risk, lack of employment possibilities due to these problems, etc) we're talking about.
Because she screwed up and trusted someone she shouldn't have. I agree with Chill, just because E-Sports is tangentially related to a business screw up why would the community bail that business out? Doesn't make sense. Yeah, it sucks and I guess it's cool that people are nice/rich.
Tangentially related? The screw up's direct purpose was to organize a live event.
People enjoyed the tournament and/or feel bad for the staff who were screwed over. They could have taken better precautions, but that shouldn't completely preclude people from having sympathy, and the community has donated to other events in the past. In this case, it's to protect someone who tried to better the community by running an event.
Chill, perhaps, but IPL has staked their name on it. This isn't Gretorp asking for donations to go to Korea so he'd make lessons for people. This is a major event organizer admitting to a fuck up and relying on their community to help remedy the situation.
Do you see nothing wrong with the bolded part? A legitimate business doesn't admit to a fuck up and then panhandle random strangers to fix their problems, especially when said business is a multi-million dollar corporation, and under the umbrella of the multi-billion dollar Rupert Murdoch owned News Corp. Do you not find it a bit ironic and disingenuous that such a company is panhandling on the internet to cover a mistake that cost them a few grand? You don't see MLG asking for donations when their satellite truck was damaged by hail. They footed the bill themselves. When their Dallas tourney was a train-wreck they didn't ask the community for a single thing, instead they apologized and gave back to the community by offering free services and improving future events.
IGN/IPL has taken the moral high-road by trying to resolve this outstanding debt issue. Considering they were the main sponsor for the event they had the most to gain from advertising. Hell, the event was even renamed the IPL4 Pacific Qualifer after their sponsorship. Not only was this a great advertising opportunity, but they were able to run their Pacific Qualifier without having to organize it themselves, which would have cost a lot more than $14,000 and a lot of man-hours. Now, instead of taking responsibility for their mistakes (the mistake of partnering with PPSL in the first place), they have projected their moral high-ground decision onto random strangers that they've never met. Where is IGN/IPL's accountability in all of this? That's right, it doesn't exist, because they pandered it off on all of us.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
Bad fucking taste, you are mocking the people who are donating by saying this..
So what? People can do what they like, but bailing someone out of a bad business decision isn't the role of the community. I would call the people that donated foolish.
The fact that IGN is promoting this stream leaves a bad taste in my mouth too. It feels like they are shrugging off responsibility. If this was something organic from the community I would feel a bit better about it.
It isn't anything person with Amanda, but she is in business. Do business properly or pay the consequences.
Well, IPL actually used their own stream and their own casters and tech crew for this whole night's show, and will give up all of the revenue they get for this day of streaming. They are streaming replays from games that originally would have been streamed on the two days of the PPSL event, that they will never get the revenue from. So you could see it as them not really promoting a special charity stream, but only that paypal button on their page.
I think that is really good of them, they should be commended for that. I just don't like the fact they are asking the community to subsidize what I feel is an issue of business.
My issue at hand is corporations/people not following through with their convictions. If one takes a moral stance and has the means to contribute, do so completely.
No. Not everyone is a fucking saint.
Let's say I have $500 in my pocket. This $500 is spending money left over after bills and savings. I pass by charity for the homeless. I do not see what is fucking wrong if I were to just donate $100 instead of $500 so I have $400 to spend on stuff like games, fast food/fine dining, movies, or other types of luxuries.
I want to help people but I certainly do not spend 8 hours a day in work, 5 days a week just so I can give someone all my spare cash.
Of course. You chose to donate 1/5 of what you had in your pocket to charity. That's extremely generous actually, and reflects on your character.
If IGN were like you, and they donated 1/5 of what was in their pocket (net profit for 2011) it would be $2,000,000 dollars.
But Amanda didn't need $2,000,000 dollars. She needed $7,000 more, or 0.0007% of what was in IGN's pocket. And instead of giving it to her, they chose to ask you to cough it up instead.
The amount is immaterial. Your statement pretty much says that if I decide to contribute to a charity I have to give 100% or I'm "not sticking with my convictions" as you put it. I could have donated the entire $500, contributed my spare time making homes or working in a soup kitchen.
So IGN isn't setting 20% of their money, so what? I didn't set aside 20% of what I can give for this cause either, what I donated was much smaller than that. And while I'm sure there were people here who may have contributed 100%, there also are people who gave away a portion of their spare change, however big or small that portion was.
If you're saying that anyone being charitable must give as much as they can, that'll just result in less donations. Charities work because people can give small amounts.
0.0007% of the profit man. Just remmeber that number. It's IGN's right to do what they want, but it doesn't mean that I'm going to sit back and listen to IGN complain that they can't afford 0.0007% of their profits and need the help of (mostly) young people and college students to chip in.
I don't see what the problem is really. So people donated to help Amanda. And that's good on them. The community just needed someone reputable to know who to give their donations to the help amanda pay off her debt. Again, I don't see an issue there.
IGN/IPL didn't just sit and let the community do its thing. They set up the stream, set up the fund raiser for amanda. So what more do you want?
Did IGN/IPL force anyone to donate?
Also, IPL is making it clear that the 7k usd is the balance they withheld from Gus, they never claimed it was a donation. They also stated how the donation would help the aggrieved parties. So again, its just a fund raiser through a reputable organization wherein no one was forced to donate anything, even if those that donated were young/college, it doesn't mean IGN brainwashed them to donate. It was out of the respective persons heart to help. Plain and simple.
If you don't want to donate to her, then don't, nobody is waiting around the corner to mug you and take your money and nobody will say you are a bad person.
But there's no point to saying this is an unnecessary event that is being used by IPL to promote themselves and they should just give money to Amanda themselves. We are all free to choose.
And hell, if something is not done because some people deem it unnecessary/incorrect, then Starcraft wouldn't exist.
Amanda, good luck with this mess. And hopefully whatever money leftover from the donations will be used to hire mercenaries/assassins/ninjas/hitmen/SEAL Team Six to track down Gus, and stick him into a pitch black jail cell with a 24-hour illuminated picture of Sad, Sad Elly.
Can IPL/TGR at least confirm that they've seen receipts for everything and confirm they've not been paid? I mean come on, she's on the same team as Gus, refuses to release any information awaiting a statement by Gus (nearly 10 days after the event), etc. Surely this smells a bit funky?
My issue at hand is corporations/people not following through with their convictions. If one takes a moral stance and has the means to contribute, do so completely.
No. Not everyone is a fucking saint.
Let's say I have $500 in my pocket. This $500 is spending money left over after bills and savings. I pass by charity for the homeless. I do not see what is fucking wrong if I were to just donate $100 instead of $500 so I have $400 to spend on stuff like games, fast food/fine dining, movies, or other types of luxuries.
I want to help people but I certainly do not spend 8 hours a day in work, 5 days a week just so I can give someone all my spare cash.
Of course. You chose to donate 1/5 of what you had in your pocket to charity. That's extremely generous actually, and reflects on your character.
If IGN were like you, and they donated 1/5 of what was in their pocket (net profit for 2011) it would be $2,000,000 dollars.
But Amanda didn't need $2,000,000 dollars. She needed $7,000 more, or 0.0007% of what was in IGN's pocket. And instead of giving it to her, they chose to ask you to cough it up instead.
The amount is immaterial. Your statement pretty much says that if I decide to contribute to a charity I have to give 100% or I'm "not sticking with my convictions" as you put it. I could have donated the entire $500, contributed my spare time making homes or working in a soup kitchen.
So IGN isn't setting 20% of their money, so what? I didn't set aside 20% of what I can give for this cause either, what I donated was much smaller than that. And while I'm sure there were people here who may have contributed 100%, there also are people who gave away a portion of their spare change, however big or small that portion was.
If you're saying that anyone being charitable must give as much as they can, that'll just result in less donations. Charities work because people can give small amounts.
0.0007% of the profit man. Just remmeber that number. It's IGN's right to do what they want, but it doesn't mean that I'm going to sit back and listen to IGN complain that they can't afford 0.0007% of their profits and need the help of (mostly) young people and college students to chip in.
But that won't be good business. Imagine this setting a precedent for whoever works with IGN/IPL in future. "Hey lets not try our best to do a bang-up job because IGN/IPL will foot the bill later, lest they want to get hounded by the community!"
I'm glad you guys have such big hearts, and it's entirely your choice; it's charity, it's your money, give it to whomever you want. But honestly, everything should be coming out of IPL/IGNs pockets, not yours. Good luck to everyone, I hope it gets resolved.
Against donating and don't want to donate? Don't. Better turn on that adblock or not watch the stream all together, lest you look like a hypocrite. As for me, I may not have money to give, but I can definitely watch some starcraft and ads to help out someone in need.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
Bad fucking taste, you are mocking the people who are donating by saying this..
So what? People can do what they like, but bailing someone out of a bad business decision isn't the role of the community. I would call the people that donated foolish.
The fact that IGN is promoting this stream leaves a bad taste in my mouth too. It feels like they are shrugging off responsibility. If this was something organic from the community I would feel a bit better about it.
It isn't anything person with Amanda, but she is in business. Do business properly or pay the consequences.
Well, IPL actually used their own stream and their own casters and tech crew for this whole night's show, and will give up all of the revenue they get for this day of streaming. They are streaming replays from games that originally would have been streamed on the two days of the PPSL event, that they will never get the revenue from. So you could see it as them not really promoting a special charity stream, but only that paypal button on their page.
I think that is really good of them, they should be commended for that. I just don't like the fact they are asking the community to subsidize what I feel is an issue of business.
i dont see how its her fault though, and its not like this can be anything /bad/. this can only help. helping out someone in need is never a bad thing.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
Bad fucking taste, you are mocking the people who are donating by saying this..
So what? People can do what they like, but bailing someone out of a bad business decision isn't the role of the community. I would call the people that donated foolish.
The fact that IGN is promoting this stream leaves a bad taste in my mouth too. It feels like they are shrugging off responsibility. If this was something organic from the community I would feel a bit better about it.
It isn't anything person with Amanda, but she is in business. Do business properly or pay the consequences.
Well, IPL actually used their own stream and their own casters and tech crew for this whole night's show, and will give up all of the revenue they get for this day of streaming. They are streaming replays from games that originally would have been streamed on the two days of the PPSL event, that they will never get the revenue from. So you could see it as them not really promoting a special charity stream, but only that paypal button on their page.
I think that is really good of them, they should be commended for that. I just don't like the fact they are asking the community to subsidize what I feel is an issue of business.
So you think Gus was doing business, and not scamming?
"Well, you chose who you do business with" - Clearly, but the Philipines dosn't have the legal system that we have. It's extremely hard to cover yourself from this ever happening to you.
I think if IPL were the ones who footed the bill for the flights and such, I don't think they'd be asking us for a dime right now. IPL could walk away from this and do nothing more for Amanda and not lose a dime. I think that is my primary justification for not feeling like IPL is taking advantage of anyone or being disingenuous. They aren't asking us to subsidize their business decision, they're asking us to subsidize someone else's mistake and there's a big difference there. Obviously IPL believes that Amanda's mistake was made in good faith.
On November 15 2011 14:52 alexhard wrote: Can IPL/TGR at least confirm that they've seen receipts for everything and confirm they've not been paid? I mean come on, she's on the same team as Gus, refuses to release any information awaiting a statement by Gus (nearly 10 days after the event), etc. Surely this smells a bit funky?
I didnt even think about that. Good point and it should be addressed. Not to make the situation worse but if i was with a team that did some shit like this i would of made a statement saying I wouldn't be apart of the team anymore. And so far I havent seen a single statement from amanda.
Question, how will we know when you have the money you need and no further donations are required. Has this already happened? I remember seeing someone post 4450$ ~ around that figure quite a few pages back. What happens to the leftover donations that go beyond what you need?
My issue at hand is corporations/people not following through with their convictions. If one takes a moral stance and has the means to contribute, do so completely.
No. Not everyone is a fucking saint.
Let's say I have $500 in my pocket. This $500 is spending money left over after bills and savings. I pass by charity for the homeless. I do not see what is fucking wrong if I were to just donate $100 instead of $500 so I have $400 to spend on stuff like games, fast food/fine dining, movies, or other types of luxuries.
I want to help people but I certainly do not spend 8 hours a day in work, 5 days a week just so I can give someone all my spare cash.
Of course. You chose to donate 1/5 of what you had in your pocket to charity. That's extremely generous actually, and reflects on your character.
If IGN were like you, and they donated 1/5 of what was in their pocket (net profit for 2011) it would be $2,000,000 dollars.
But Amanda didn't need $2,000,000 dollars. She needed $7,000 more, or 0.0007% of what was in IGN's pocket. And instead of giving it to her, they chose to ask you to cough it up instead.
The amount is immaterial. Your statement pretty much says that if I decide to contribute to a charity I have to give 100% or I'm "not sticking with my convictions" as you put it. I could have donated the entire $500, contributed my spare time making homes or working in a soup kitchen.
So IGN isn't setting 20% of their money, so what? I didn't set aside 20% of what I can give for this cause either, what I donated was much smaller than that. And while I'm sure there were people here who may have contributed 100%, there also are people who gave away a portion of their spare change, however big or small that portion was.
If you're saying that anyone being charitable must give as much as they can, that'll just result in less donations. Charities work because people can give small amounts.
0.0007% of the profit man. Just remmeber that number. It's IGN's right to do what they want, but it doesn't mean that I'm going to sit back and listen to IGN complain that they can't afford 0.0007% of their profits and need the help of (mostly) young people and college students to chip in.
I wish I had .0007% of IGN's net profit from 2011 to use for IPL event planning -- cause then the community would get Michael Bay level special effects with Christopher Nolan level production and a generous prize pool (and split) that would make Opera Winfrey look like Scrooge McDuck.
On November 15 2011 14:55 Dodgin wrote: Question, how will we know when you have the money you need and no further donations are required. Has this already happened? What happens to the leftover donations that go beyond what you need?
Well, I know for a fact that GunRun is currently down 2,000$ paid out of his own pocket - I hope that if there are any leftovers, they go to him
On November 15 2011 14:55 Dodgin wrote: Question, how will we know when you have the money you need and no further donations are required. Has this already happened? I remember seeing someone post 4450$ ~ around that figure quite a few pages back. What happens to the leftover donations that go beyond what you need?
Amanda's money is fully recouped. The entire tournament is down another $11,000. Any surplus money will go to those affected other than Amanda. At least that's what has been stated. If they continue to have extra, I hope they will refund it to those who donated in some equitable fashion.
Despite agreeing with some of the negative feedback here, I really don't mind this charity drive as long as the people responsible don't get away with it. I still hope that sanctions whether from the community/legally/opposing parties, would be implemented; despite everyone involved getting paid (which is very common in the Philippines).
On November 15 2011 14:55 Dodgin wrote: Question, how will we know when you have the money you need and no further donations are required. Has this already happened? I remember seeing someone post 4450$ ~ around that figure quite a few pages back. What happens to the leftover donations that go beyond what you need?
The money being raised for Amanda is to cover the minimum cost of keeping her out of jail and bankruptcy. If more money is raised, it will go towards the other outstanding costs that still are unpaid from the PPSL event.
On November 15 2011 14:55 Dodgin wrote: Question, how will we know when you have the money you need and no further donations are required. Has this already happened? What happens to the leftover donations that go beyond what you need?
Well, I know for a fact that GunRun is currently down 2,000$ paid out of his own pocket - I hope that if there are any leftovers, they go to him
I think this should be communicated more clearly either in an update from IPL or in the OP. I am not sure if I should donate because if they already have $5000 my money is going elsewhere than to help Amanda. Which is what they are advertising.
Unless some new piece of info comes out about how Gus accepted this deal under gunpoint, he was free to not accept the terms of the IPL's sponsorship deal.
So yes Gus and Team AZK as an organization is responsible for debts that got run up in the event. The IPL on the other hand is responsible for trusting him to run things smoothly. The IPL, took a step further and organized a charity drive, despite them not having to do so.
Honestly it's that simple. It doesn't matter how deep IGN's pockets are. Their deal was described pretty well in the first two posts by Alex. So unless you have access to information we don't have, all you're saying is that a guy/corporation with lots of money has to be the one to shoulder the extra expenses because... they have lots of money.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
Bad fucking taste, you are mocking the people who are donating by saying this..
So what? People can do what they like, but bailing someone out of a bad business decision isn't the role of the community. I would call the people that donated foolish.
The fact that IGN is promoting this stream leaves a bad taste in my mouth too. It feels like they are shrugging off responsibility. If this was something organic from the community I would feel a bit better about it.
It isn't anything person with Amanda, but she is in business. Do business properly or pay the consequences.
Well, IPL actually used their own stream and their own casters and tech crew for this whole night's show, and will give up all of the revenue they get for this day of streaming. They are streaming replays from games that originally would have been streamed on the two days of the PPSL event, that they will never get the revenue from. So you could see it as them not really promoting a special charity stream, but only that paypal button on their page.
I think that is really good of them, they should be commended for that. I just don't like the fact they are asking the community to subsidize what I feel is an issue of business.
[QUOTE]On November 15 2011 14:54 ELA wrote: [QUOTE]On November 15 2011 14:49 Manifesto7 wrote: [QUOTE]On November 15 2011 14:40 Ropid wrote: [QUOTE]On November 15 2011 14:30 Manifesto7 wrote: [QUOTE]On November 15 2011 14:24 ELA wrote: [QUOTE]On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.[/QUOTE]
Bad fucking taste, you are mocking the people who are donating by saying this..[/QUOTE]
So what? People can do what they like, but bailing someone out of a bad business decision isn't the role of the community. I would call the people that donated foolish.
The fact that IGN is promoting this stream leaves a bad taste in my mouth too. It feels like they are shrugging off responsibility. If this was something organic from the community I would feel a bit better about it.
It isn't anything person with Amanda, but she is in business. Do business properly or pay the consequences.[/QUOTE] Well, IPL actually used their own stream and their own casters and tech crew for this whole night's show, and will give up all of the revenue they get for this day of streaming. They are streaming replays from games that originally would have been streamed on the two days of the PPSL event, that they will never get the revenue from. So you could see it as them not really promoting a special charity stream, but only that paypal button on their page.[/QUOTE]
I think that is really good of them, they should be commended for that. I just don't like the fact they are asking the community to subsidize what I feel is an issue of business.[/QUOTE]
There are ways, people just rather opt out as it attracts undue attention from the government with taxes and all that. So people would rather do it without a paper trail to back up claims. You just wish that sometimes, people weigh the risk of not going the legal route against the risk of not doing it without legally protecting your own person/company. But hey, what can you do really.
It a done deal, it happened. We just hope with the days passing, we can a clearer picture as a community as to what transpired between all relevant parties. Dox has aired his side, some players have, TGR has, threehundred also has some. But it still is not the whole picture but just fragments.
Majority of the big picture will come from the rest of Team AZK associated with Gus' actions who are also victims in certain sense. Wish they just quickly clear up the air as to what is what (Especially the hand the others played in the PPSL event/fiasco) Silence in this is not a good thing on the part of Team AZK.
I had/have the stream on all the time, as background when not active, ads working and everything. To be honest I have equal sympathy for everyone involved in the accident, hope this event (and if needed, more) would help them to get out without extreme debt and closure problems. Frankly, "killing" Gus or whatever would be done to him, won't solve anything, so at least this event may help a little bit in the right direction. Big big thank you to IPL for doing this, and handling the trouble well.
Shit if I weren't a poor ass college student I would donate a bit. But even $1 is a huge chunk out of my bank account right now. Btw, mad props to GunRun for donating 2k. I don't like his casting style, but he is a good person at heart, as well as everyone else who donated.
On November 15 2011 15:00 Vendor wrote: A nice gesture by IPL and good on the people that donate, I just don't believe IGN should ask for handouts on something that is their problem.
They already paid what they owed. It isn't their problem. They're just going out of their way to help.
The fact that because of the PPSL fiasco, the esports community is asked to donate a large sum of money to spot ONE PERSON out of trouble is sad, when compared to the people suffering in the UNHCR advertisement we have on TL, and how many thousands we can be saving with the same amount of money.
Amanda should be helped, yes. But perhaps monetary aid should go somewhere else if you are in a donating mood.
Hey all,.. this whole thing is an amazing showing from the community.. it warms my heart
not to sound negative but I just wanted to know. Is Amanda associated with E-sports ? Did she front all this money herself for the cause of putting on the tournament, did she even know about the tournament ? Is she just a travel agent who got scammed ?
just wondering because the posts and "facts" seem to be all over the place in this thread. It just seems like $12,000 in credit is alot to dole out to an unproven customer.. What Happened?!?!
Damn heh I wish I could get a travel agent to front me that kind of money for my vacations.. I always have to pay before I get on the plane or stay at the hotel..
It is great to give.. just that there are so many people hurting now losing there homes getting put out on the streets.. just wanna make sure the charity is going to the right places...
On November 15 2011 14:55 Dodgin wrote: Question, how will we know when you have the money you need and no further donations are required. Has this already happened? I remember seeing someone post 4450$ ~ around that figure quite a few pages back. What happens to the leftover donations that go beyond what you need?
The money being raised for Amanda is to cover the minimum cost of keeping her out of jail and bankruptcy. If more money is raised, it will go towards the other outstanding costs that still are unpaid from the PPSL event.
According to Amanda (unless I read it wrong) the money was raised on page 25. later on page 30 something she is still personally thanking people as they state they have donated money to help. That and the thread title are a little misleading imo. maybe they could/should update the thread title?
On November 15 2011 15:07 Rocor wrote: Hey all,.. this whole thing is an amazing showing from the community.. it warms my heart
not to sound negative but I just wanted to know. Is Amanda associated with E-sports ? Did she front all this money herself for the cause of putting on the tournament, did she even know about the tournament ? Is she just a travel agent who got scammed ?
just wondering because the posts and "facts" seem to be all over the place in this thread. It just seems like $12,000 in credit is alot to dole out to an unproven customer.. What Happened?!?!
Damn heh I wish I could get a travel agent to front me that kind of money for my vacations.. I always have to pay before I get on the plane or stay at the hotel..
It is great to give.. just that there are so many people hurting now losing there homes getting put out on the streets.. just wanna make sure the charity is going to the right places...
Maybe you should go read the PPSL related threads to get a better understanding of whats going on. Look for Dox's blog, it should contain the tl;dr version.
On November 15 2011 13:41 Chill wrote: Can you pay some of my bills too from when I got short changed? I appreciate the cause, but this is setting a very strange precedent that I can't agree with.
Bad fucking taste, you are mocking the people who are donating by saying this..
So what? People can do what they like, but bailing someone out of a bad business decision isn't the role of the community. I would call the people that donated foolish.
The fact that IGN is promoting this stream leaves a bad taste in my mouth too. It feels like they are shrugging off responsibility. If this was something organic from the community I would feel a bit better about it.
It isn't anything person with Amanda, but she is in business. Do business properly or pay the consequences.
Well, IPL actually used their own stream and their own casters and tech crew for this whole night's show, and will give up all of the revenue they get for this day of streaming. They are streaming replays from games that originally would have been streamed on the two days of the PPSL event, that they will never get the revenue from. So you could see it as them not really promoting a special charity stream, but only that paypal button on their page.
I think that is really good of them, they should be commended for that. I just don't like the fact they are asking the community to subsidize what I feel is an issue of business.
So you think Gus was doing business, and not scamming?
"Well, you chose who you do business with" - Clearly, but the Philipines dosn't have the legal system that we have. It's extremely hard to cover yourself from this ever happening to you.
I do think the stream and donations are OK in this case, because of that 11-21 date as a time limit, but it really does leave a bad taste thinking about the whole issue, and solving the problem with donations. I really hope Amanda and everyone else still take all their bills and documentation and prepare statements of their demands to Gus, and go to court with all of that so that the debt gets eventually shifted onto Gus, especially if he really is a bastard and stole money, and simply does not want to pay but actually could.
I of course do not know anything of the Philippine legal system, but it surely was influenced by European or US traders, so it cannot be that broken. Where I am from, lawyers are not needed to go to court for missing payments, and even if lawyers are needed, the costs of the court and the lawyers are capped by the amount that is contested, and it makes sense to got to court even for small amounts of money.
Who cares what anyone thinks of this charity event? Why spend the energy in criticizing the efforts? Spend that energy into clicking another thread topic and moving on. Why does everyone have to go all hipster and oppose anything that has a healthy bandwagon.. grr.. =[
On November 15 2011 15:07 kKagari wrote: The Amanda situation is not sad.
The fact that because of the PPSL fiasco, the esports community is asked to donate a large sum of money to spot ONE PERSON out of trouble is sad, when compared to the people suffering in the UNHCR advertisement we have on TL, and how many thousands we can be saving with the same amount of money.
Amanda should be helped, yes. But perhaps monetary aid should go somewhere else if you are in a donating mood.
See the numerous replies (including my own) addressing this point. The presence of other charitable organizations does not negate the value in giving to something else. Whether one gives of their time, their resources, or both, everyone is allowed to give according to their means and their convictions. No one purpose is any more noble than any other. There is a lot of good being done by a lot of charities under a lot of different banners. Trying to judge people based on where they choose to give is petty.
On November 15 2011 15:07 kKagari wrote: The Amanda situation is not sad.
The fact that because of the PPSL fiasco, the esports community is asked to donate a large sum of money to spot ONE PERSON out of trouble is sad, when compared to the people suffering in the UNHCR advertisement we have on TL, and how many thousands we can be saving with the same amount of money.
Amanda should be helped, yes. But perhaps monetary aid should go somewhere else if you are in a donating mood.
By this logic there would be one charity that anyone should donate to? Small, focused community donation drives to solve isolated problems is a great tool.
On November 15 2011 14:55 Dodgin wrote: Question, how will we know when you have the money you need and no further donations are required. Has this already happened? I remember seeing someone post 4450$ ~ around that figure quite a few pages back. What happens to the leftover donations that go beyond what you need?
The money being raised for Amanda is to cover the minimum cost of keeping her out of jail and bankruptcy. If more money is raised, it will go towards the other outstanding costs that still are unpaid from the PPSL event.
According to Amanda (unless I read it wrong) the money was raised on page 25. later on page 30 something she is still personally thanking people as they state they have donated money to help. That and the thread title are a little misleading imo. maybe they could/should update the thread title?
To everyone who is confusing the moral/practical issue:
What the IPL/IGN should do is irrelevant; the only thing that matters is what they will do. Do you honestly think if we as a community don't help Amanda IPL/IGN will suddenly go "Oh shit, the community didn't bail her out so I guess it falls on us?" IPL/IGN (which I will refer to as IPL for simplicity's sake) won't do anything. Why should they? What will they lose by not bailing her out? Are you all going to boycott their services and products? Will you organize rallies? Will you stop watching the IPL? No, you (and I) won't do any of those things. At worst IPL loses an infinitesimal amount of goodwill. They likely lose virtually nothing in income or viewership. Meanwhile Amanda goes to jail, loses her business, and has her life horrifically damaged. Yeah, go team! Not only did we show IPL what's what by doing absolutely fucking nothing, we showed Amanda that it's not ok to be defrauded or to help organize esports events. What a coup by the community! What an astounding moral victory by all the people who say "it's IPL's/Amanda's fault" for their individual situations.
Whose fault it is doesn't fucking matter. What matters is what happens. You can argue morally compelling bullshit all day long, but we either A) help Amanda out, or B) do nothing and QQ about how IPL should have saved her when we had the power to. Yeah, that's a victory.
I don't understand. Does Gus owe money or not? If Gus owes money, just hire a private investigator and find him. There is no way someone like him can go completely off the radar.
If Amanda owes the money, I don't understand why people aren't suggesting that she pay it herself. She made a mistake. She was taken advantage of by a terrible person. She is probably a very good person. I'm very sorry for her. She deserves better. But you don't always get what or who you deserve in life. And in the end, she is at fault.
From what I can tell she owes like 5k now. Considering she had a stable job before this, I would assume she could get by by selling stuff, cutting down on spending, getting a loan, asking family/friends for money, etc. If all of these paths were exhausted first, I would deem this charity event slightly less illegitimate. I can't fathom how her livelihood is at any substantial risk considering the recent course of events and how willing IGN/IPL is to make up for their mistake.
Also, people have lost their jobs for far less than $12,000 mistakes, and I don't see anyone else complaining.
I'm not posting this because I think this event is unnecessary. This is abusive. This is the community being taken advantage of. I think Gus or IPL or Amanda should pay this debt. And they should figure it out amongst themselves. Turning to the community to solve private problems should not be condoned, particularly when it isn't a last resort out of desperation.
I'm going to clarify by explaining the purpose of charities. The purpose of charities is to help people who don't have the means or ability to help themselves.
On November 15 2011 15:07 kKagari wrote: The Amanda situation is not sad.
The fact that because of the PPSL fiasco, the esports community is asked to donate a large sum of money to spot ONE PERSON out of trouble is sad, when compared to the people suffering in the UNHCR advertisement we have on TL, and how many thousands we can be saving with the same amount of money.
Amanda should be helped, yes. But perhaps monetary aid should go somewhere else if you are in a donating mood.
An important point, but think about how giving works psychologically. Yes, this money could probably also be used to stop people from starving, but that kind of indiscriminate giving to strangers is a very difficult thing to do.
There are 2 ways to take care of a crowd, one is to have the loudest person stand up and tell everyone what to do and dispense out all the money etc.
But, the other way is for everyone to take responsibility for those people just around them. And that's what we've got going on here. The community feels close to Amanda so they are helping her out. I think it misses the point completely to say that what someone is doing isn't right because its not the BEST thing that they could be doing. Clearly there are levels of here, and IMO helping Amanda out is more right than just letting her hang in the breeze. Whether giving money to stop people form starving is even more right than that is another debate and frankly I think its irrelevant.
On November 15 2011 15:07 kKagari wrote: The Amanda situation is not sad.
The fact that because of the PPSL fiasco, the esports community is asked to donate a large sum of money to spot ONE PERSON out of trouble is sad, when compared to the people suffering in the UNHCR advertisement we have on TL, and how many thousands we can be saving with the same amount of money.
Amanda should be helped, yes. But perhaps monetary aid should go somewhere else if you are in a donating mood.
Personally, I wish the money donated would only serve as a "loan", Gus and whoever else is responsible in Team AZK would still have to pay us back. But instead of giving back the money to us, it would just be put into a charity of our choosing.
That way Amanda's situation, and of the other people who got screwed over by Gus, get solved but Gus still has to pay for his mistakes.
On November 15 2011 15:07 kKagari wrote: The Amanda situation is not sad.
The fact that because of the PPSL fiasco, the esports community is asked to donate a large sum of money to spot ONE PERSON out of trouble is sad, when compared to the people suffering in the UNHCR advertisement we have on TL, and how many thousands we can be saving with the same amount of money.
Amanda should be helped, yes. But perhaps monetary aid should go somewhere else if you are in a donating mood.
Dude.. I don't know if you've ever heard of Copenhagen Consensus (Lomborg, prioritizing problems etc.), but I'm used to people telling me, that that the donations I make are stupid because I could do way more good with the same amount of money, giving it to Thailand instead of Somalia.
Just let people show their support without indirectly calling them stupid T.T
On November 15 2011 15:07 kKagari wrote: The Amanda situation is not sad.
The fact that because of the PPSL fiasco, the esports community is asked to donate a large sum of money to spot ONE PERSON out of trouble is sad, when compared to the people suffering in the UNHCR advertisement we have on TL, and how many thousands we can be saving with the same amount of money.
Amanda should be helped, yes. But perhaps monetary aid should go somewhere else if you are in a donating mood.
You're basically saying:
"Your friend losing his leg in a car accident isn't sad, you shouldn't try to help him, I know this girl who was a professional dancer that got bilateral gangrene and didn't have health insurance."
I was still hopeful even as IGN was talking to me last night i did express that he create a statement as this is what a leader must do. I think a lot of people have exerted extra effort as a burden is not even theirs to being with and by any means was anyone required to shell out or stream the hell out all night. I do intend to clarify things as much as i can. But right now i think everyones focused on just the event.
Normally I feel like my $1 never does anything so I wasnt going to donate.
This month Im in debt $1187 because I stupidly used my american express card, I got till Dec. 12 to pay it off. (im a full time student at university, I have a job but like max hours 8 a week)
So ya, I know being in debt sucks, so I decided to donate $5 to Amanda....then after 5minutes I decided I was never going to pay my debt off so I donated another $5. Hopefully one of us makes it out of debt LOL
Glad to see a community that really helps out people! And good luck to Amanda!
On November 15 2011 15:12 Enervate wrote: I don't understand. Does Gus owe money or not? If Gus owes money, just hire a private investigator and find him. There is no way someone like him can go completely off the radar.
If Amanda owes the money, I don't understand why people aren't suggesting that she pay it herself. She made a mistake. She was taken advantage of by a terrible person. She is probably a very good person. I'm very sorry for her. She deserves better. But you don't always get what or who you deserve in life. And in the end, she is at fault.
From what I can tell she owes like 5k now. Considering she had a stable job before this, I would assume she could get by by selling stuff, cutting down on spending, getting a loan, asking family/friends for money, etc. If all of these paths were exhausted first, I would deem this charity event slightly less illegitimate. I can't fathom how her livelihood is at any substantial risk considering the recent course of events and how willing IGN/IPL is to make up for their mistake.
Also, people have lost their jobs for far less than $12,000 mistakes, and I don't see anyone else complaining.
I'm not posting this because I think this event is unnecessary. This is abusive. This is the community being taken advantage of. I think Gus or IPL or Amanda should pay this debt. And they should figure it out amongst themselves. Turning to the community to solve private problems should not be condoned, particularly when it isn't a last resort out of desperation.
I'm going to clarify by explaining the purpose of charities. The purpose of charities is to help people who don't have the means or ability to help themselves.
Gus is AWOL and not communicating with anyone. IPL has no greater stake in any of this debt than any of the rest of us. That leaves Amanda with the bill and no one to "figure it out amongst themselves" with. Amanda did not concoct this drive. IGN does not owe this money. They saw a chance to right a wrong done to the volunteers of the tournament. They took it. The people in this thread and through the stream, with clear mind and sound conviction, CHOSE to give of their resources to help out.
It wasn't forced on anyone. No one demanded it. No one held us up or attempted to guilt trip anyone else. People saw a need, felt sympathy for the people affected, and gave whatever they felt was appropriate to help out.
What doesn't make sense are the people that come in after the fact to demean the whole process. Sure you can have and voice opinions over how valuable you think the endeavor was or how necessary, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it happened and the people who donated do not regret it. What is the sense in trying to make people regret it? Or to guilt trip them by saying they could have given the money to another charity?
If Amanda owes the money, I don't understand why people aren't suggesting that she pay it herself. She made a mistake. She was taken advantage of by a terrible person. She is probably a very good person. I'm very sorry for her. She deserves better. But you don't always get what or who you deserve in life. And in the end, she is at fault.
I'm going to clarify by explaining the purpose of charities. The purpose of charities is to help people who don't have the means or ability to help themselves.
I think this is the crux of it. Is it ultimately her responsibility? Yes. And it really is because she is the one who could lose her job if it doesn't get paid. At the same time, we as a community can choose to make it our responsibility as well because we feel like a mistake has been made, but it was made in good faith and so we can help out. Everyone needs help in life sometimes when they make a mistake, we all know that so some of us choose to make this the time that we help out.
If she knew what she was doing was risky but did it anyway, then of course she doesn't really deserve the help. She has a lesson to learn.
But, if she made the mistake in good faith, ie thinking that it was a reasonable decision then she isn't really learning anything by not being helped out. Clearly, she already figured out that it in fact WAS a risky decision and it is probably the case that she already knows that one ought not bet on risky decisions.
Oh and point being if you do go to a travel agency, a bargain about payment can be made. As this is what i did as i wanted to help him out. I am a gamer as well and that given the opportunity to participate in a way with esports well i took the gamble.
On November 15 2011 15:07 kKagari wrote: The Amanda situation is not sad.
The fact that because of the PPSL fiasco, the esports community is asked to donate a large sum of money to spot ONE PERSON out of trouble is sad, when compared to the people suffering in the UNHCR advertisement we have on TL, and how many thousands we can be saving with the same amount of money.
Amanda should be helped, yes. But perhaps monetary aid should go somewhere else if you are in a donating mood.
You're basically saying:
"Your friend losing his leg in a car accident isn't sad, you shouldn't try to help him, I know this girl who was a professional dancer that got bilateral gangrene and didn't have health insurance."
No, I'm not. I simply find it ironic that we stare at the UNHCR ad everyday surfing TL.net, possibly taking no action in any of its pleas, yet this Amanda situation appears, gaining the support of thousands, and using money that could potentially save a whole lot more people.
Take a step back and look at it. You hold in your hand the power to save one person you have some inkling of a relationship to, or thousands of others you don't know. I would save the one person myself, but thats probably because I'm a cold hearted bitch, however, that is exactly what makes the situation sad.
even with the money raised and amanda bailed from possible jailtime, the fiasco is far from over. from the way i see it, the "charity" drive is just a temporary measure to keep amanda out of trouble (regardless whether she was innocent or screwed by bad business practice) before the full investigation completes. gus still have a lot to answer for.
On November 15 2011 15:07 kKagari wrote: The Amanda situation is not sad.
The fact that because of the PPSL fiasco, the esports community is asked to donate a large sum of money to spot ONE PERSON out of trouble is sad, when compared to the people suffering in the UNHCR advertisement we have on TL, and how many thousands we can be saving with the same amount of money.
Amanda should be helped, yes. But perhaps monetary aid should go somewhere else if you are in a donating mood.
You're basically saying:
"Your friend losing his leg in a car accident isn't sad, you shouldn't try to help him, I know this girl who was a professional dancer that got bilateral gangrene and didn't have health insurance."
No, I'm not. I simply find it ironic that we stare at the UNHCR ad everyday surfing TL.net, possibly taking no action in any of its pleas, yet this Amanda situation appears, gaining the support of thousands, and using money that could potentially save a whole lot more people.
Take a step back and look at it. You hold in your hand the power to save one person you have some inkling of a relationship to, or thousands of others you don't know. I would save the one person myself, but thats probably because I'm a cold hearted bitch, however, that is exactly what makes the situation sad.
But it makes it no more of a sad situation than exists everytime you purchase anything that you do not need to survive. You're constantly making decisions about how to spend disposable income. All of that money could go to worthwhile charities, instead of to TV, internet, restaurants, movies, SC2, online streams, or other non-essential activities.
Saying that donating to this drive makes the situation sad is implying that the money would have gone to another charity instead. It's far more likely that this money would have gone to a selfish endeavor and that the money any of us would have given to other charities will not be affected by the fact that we helped out in this instance.
Money given to charities is not necessarily zero-sum. In fact, there's likely evidence out there that the good feelings garnered by helping out Amanda would lead to more charitable giving overall rather than less.
On November 15 2011 15:12 Vindicate wrote: To everyone who is confusing the moral/practical issue:
What the IPL/IGN should do is irrelevant; the only thing that matters is what they will do. Do you honestly think if we as a community don't help Amanda IPL/IGN will suddenly go "Oh shit, the community didn't bail her out so I guess it falls on us?" IPL/IGN (which I will refer to as IPL for simplicity's sake) won't do anything. Why should they? What will they lose by not bailing her out? Are you all going to boycott their services and products? Will you organize rallies? Will you stop watching the IPL? No, you (and I) won't do any of those things. At worst IPL loses an infinitesimal amount of goodwill. They likely lose virtually nothing in income or viewership. Meanwhile Amanda goes to jail, loses her business, and has her life horrifically damaged. Yeah, go team! Not only did we show IPL what's what by doing absolutely fucking nothing, we showed Amanda that it's not ok to be defrauded or to help organize esports events. What a coup by the community! What an astounding moral victory by all the people who say "it's IPL's/Amanda's fault" for their individual situations.
Whose fault it is doesn't fucking matter. What matters is what happens. You can argue morally compelling bullshit all day long, but we either A) help Amanda out, or B) do nothing and QQ about how IPL should have saved her when we had the power to. Yeah, that's a victory.
Shameful.
You make the completely false assertion that IPL is not a stakeholder in this event. They are sponsors, not some anonymous charity who donated $14,000 to PPSL for the sake of good will. The sponsorship affects the reputation of their brand, advertising, relations in the industry, and access to potential commercial benefits and opportunities that may arise in the future. It's a business and it's imperative they get this right. By your logic they should be starting charities for everyone in need since it fulfills your criteria of "losing virtually nothing".
On November 15 2011 15:07 kKagari wrote: The Amanda situation is not sad.
The fact that because of the PPSL fiasco, the esports community is asked to donate a large sum of money to spot ONE PERSON out of trouble is sad, when compared to the people suffering in the UNHCR advertisement we have on TL, and how many thousands we can be saving with the same amount of money.
Amanda should be helped, yes. But perhaps monetary aid should go somewhere else if you are in a donating mood.
You're basically saying:
"Your friend losing his leg in a car accident isn't sad, you shouldn't try to help him, I know this girl who was a professional dancer that got bilateral gangrene and didn't have health insurance."
No, I'm not. I simply find it ironic that we stare at the UNHCR ad everyday surfing TL.net, possibly taking no action in any of its pleas, yet this Amanda situation appears, gaining the support of thousands, and using money that could potentially save a whole lot more people.
Take a step back and look at it. You hold in your hand the power to save one person you have some inkling of a relationship to, or thousands of others you don't know. I would save the one person myself, but thats probably because I'm a cold hearted bitch, however, that is exactly what makes the situation sad.
Not everyone sees the same ads, first off, I know a lot of TL surfers use AdBlocker (which I am strongly against), and I have never seen an ad for UNHCR. Perhaps if the UNHCR was personally appealing to the ESPORTS community it would receive more attention. All of my ads today were for JimmyJohns, which I subsequently ordered for lunch.
Seems somewhat fair. The reality is that these games would've been broadcast on IPL's stream and probably had the benefit of more viewers and more revenue had they not pulled their support after the day 1 disaster. I'm not saying IPL was wrong, but to those saying they aren't taking responsibility, I think this makes up for their part in the PPSL situation. Given that the earnings are going to PPSL related debt, it's pretty equivalent to having had the PPSL earn this money in the first place to pay for itself. It's just that with this format, there is no question about how the money is being spent / where it's going.
I'm just surprised that people haven't actually found Gus at this point. In this day in age, it's actually pretty easy to track someone down.
On November 15 2011 15:22 amanduh wrote: Oh and point being if you do go to a travel agency, a bargain about payment can be made. As this is what i did as i wanted to help him out. I am a gamer as well and that given the opportunity to participate in a way with esports well i took the gamble.
A 12K bargain/gamble, with no real contract? No comment..
On November 15 2011 15:07 kKagari wrote: The Amanda situation is not sad.
The fact that because of the PPSL fiasco, the esports community is asked to donate a large sum of money to spot ONE PERSON out of trouble is sad, when compared to the people suffering in the UNHCR advertisement we have on TL, and how many thousands we can be saving with the same amount of money.
Amanda should be helped, yes. But perhaps monetary aid should go somewhere else if you are in a donating mood.
You're basically saying:
"Your friend losing his leg in a car accident isn't sad, you shouldn't try to help him, I know this girl who was a professional dancer that got bilateral gangrene and didn't have health insurance."
No, I'm not. I simply find it ironic that we stare at the UNHCR ad everyday surfing TL.net, possibly taking no action in any of its pleas, yet this Amanda situation appears, gaining the support of thousands, and using money that could potentially save a whole lot more people.
Take a step back and look at it. You hold in your hand the power to save one person you have some inkling of a relationship to, or thousands of others you don't know. I would save the one person myself, but thats probably because I'm a cold hearted bitch, however, that is exactly what makes the situation sad.
By this logic, anything we've ever purchased that didn't go to necessitate our survival, should have gone to helping someone in need.
Look in your very room. What have you purchased and "donated" your money to, that should've went to a charitable organization instead.
Acting like someone sitting on a high horse, because a community is helping out a person in one problem and not another is simply downright terrible.
On November 15 2011 15:12 Vindicate wrote: To everyone who is confusing the moral/practical issue:
What the IPL/IGN should do is irrelevant; the only thing that matters is what they will do. Do you honestly think if we as a community don't help Amanda IPL/IGN will suddenly go "Oh shit, the community didn't bail her out so I guess it falls on us?" IPL/IGN (which I will refer to as IPL for simplicity's sake) won't do anything. Why should they? What will they lose by not bailing her out? Are you all going to boycott their services and products? Will you organize rallies? Will you stop watching the IPL? No, you (and I) won't do any of those things. At worst IPL loses an infinitesimal amount of goodwill. They likely lose virtually nothing in income or viewership. Meanwhile Amanda goes to jail, loses her business, and has her life horrifically damaged. Yeah, go team! Not only did we show IPL what's what by doing absolutely fucking nothing, we showed Amanda that it's not ok to be defrauded or to help organize esports events. What a coup by the community! What an astounding moral victory by all the people who say "it's IPL's/Amanda's fault" for their individual situations.
Whose fault it is doesn't fucking matter. What matters is what happens. You can argue morally compelling bullshit all day long, but we either A) help Amanda out, or B) do nothing and QQ about how IPL should have saved her when we had the power to. Yeah, that's a victory.
Shameful.
You make the completely false assertion that IPL is not a stakeholder in this event. They are sponsors, not some anonymous charity who donated $14,000 to PPSL for the sake of good will. The sponsorship affects the reputation of their brand, advertising, relations in the industry, and access to potential commercial benefits and opportunities that may arise in the future. It's a business and it's imperative they get this right. By your logic they should be starting charities for everyone in need since it fulfills your criteria of "losing virtually nothing".
You're quite right in highlighting that the IPL is a stakeholder in this event, and in your connection of sponsorship and the like to their conduct. My point is that those same sponsors, advertising opportunities, etc. won't be affected by not bailing out Amanda. This is a pretty minor P.R. stunt in the grand scheme of all IPL's sponsors, viewers, and other sources of income. I also agree that they should be handling this, not us, but I stand by my original assertion that the IPL won't do anything since the sponsors/viewers/etc won't penalize them for said lack of action.
I can be unclear in my writing so I hope I more definitely illustrated my stance.
On November 15 2011 15:07 kKagari wrote: The Amanda situation is not sad.
The fact that because of the PPSL fiasco, the esports community is asked to donate a large sum of money to spot ONE PERSON out of trouble is sad, when compared to the people suffering in the UNHCR advertisement we have on TL, and how many thousands we can be saving with the same amount of money.
Amanda should be helped, yes. But perhaps monetary aid should go somewhere else if you are in a donating mood.
You're basically saying:
"Your friend losing his leg in a car accident isn't sad, you shouldn't try to help him, I know this girl who was a professional dancer that got bilateral gangrene and didn't have health insurance."
No, I'm not. I simply find it ironic that we stare at the UNHCR ad everyday surfing TL.net, possibly taking no action in any of its pleas, yet this Amanda situation appears, gaining the support of thousands, and using money that could potentially save a whole lot more people.
Take a step back and look at it. You hold in your hand the power to save one person you have some inkling of a relationship to, or thousands of others you don't know. I would save the one person myself, but thats probably because I'm a cold hearted bitch, however, that is exactly what makes the situation sad.
This gets more attention then the UNHCR ad because it's an event.
Tonnes of people tuned in and detonated to TLO's/Sheth's/Destiny's charity event too. I don't see your point.
On November 15 2011 15:07 kKagari wrote: The Amanda situation is not sad.
The fact that because of the PPSL fiasco, the esports community is asked to donate a large sum of money to spot ONE PERSON out of trouble is sad, when compared to the people suffering in the UNHCR advertisement we have on TL, and how many thousands we can be saving with the same amount of money.
Amanda should be helped, yes. But perhaps monetary aid should go somewhere else if you are in a donating mood.
Have you ever heard 1 death is a tragedy, 1000 is a statistic? I don't agree with the statement, but it's definitely true.
On November 15 2011 15:07 kKagari wrote: The Amanda situation is not sad.
The fact that because of the PPSL fiasco, the esports community is asked to donate a large sum of money to spot ONE PERSON out of trouble is sad, when compared to the people suffering in the UNHCR advertisement we have on TL, and how many thousands we can be saving with the same amount of money.
Amanda should be helped, yes. But perhaps monetary aid should go somewhere else if you are in a donating mood.
You're basically saying:
"Your friend losing his leg in a car accident isn't sad, you shouldn't try to help him, I know this girl who was a professional dancer that got bilateral gangrene and didn't have health insurance."
No, I'm not. I simply find it ironic that we stare at the UNHCR ad everyday surfing TL.net, possibly taking no action in any of its pleas, yet this Amanda situation appears, gaining the support of thousands, and using money that could potentially save a whole lot more people.
Take a step back and look at it. You hold in your hand the power to save one person you have some inkling of a relationship to, or thousands of others you don't know. I would save the one person myself, but thats probably because I'm a cold hearted bitch, however, that is exactly what makes the situation sad.
But it makes it no more of a sad situation than exists everytime you purchase anything that you do not need to survive. You're constantly making decisions about how to spend disposable income. All of that money could go to worthwhile charities, instead of to TV, internet, restaurants, movies, SC2, online streams, or other non-essential activities.
Saying that donating to this drive makes the situation sad is implying that the money would have gone to another charity instead. It's far more likely that this money would have gone to a selfish endeavor and that the money any of us would have given to other charities will not be affected by the fact that we helped out in this instance.
Money given to charities is not necessarily zero-sum. In fact, there's likely evidence out there that the good feelings garnered by helping out Amanda would lead to more charitable giving overall rather than less.
Fair enough. I guess we happen to stand on different sides of the fence. Having brought about this issue I will donate money to UNHCR >.>
On November 15 2011 15:12 Vindicate wrote: To everyone who is confusing the moral/practical issue:
What the IPL/IGN should do is irrelevant; the only thing that matters is what they will do. Do you honestly think if we as a community don't help Amanda IPL/IGN will suddenly go "Oh shit, the community didn't bail her out so I guess it falls on us?" IPL/IGN (which I will refer to as IPL for simplicity's sake) won't do anything. Why should they? What will they lose by not bailing her out? Are you all going to boycott their services and products? Will you organize rallies? Will you stop watching the IPL? No, you (and I) won't do any of those things. At worst IPL loses an infinitesimal amount of goodwill. They likely lose virtually nothing in income or viewership. Meanwhile Amanda goes to jail, loses her business, and has her life horrifically damaged. Yeah, go team! Not only did we show IPL what's what by doing absolutely fucking nothing, we showed Amanda that it's not ok to be defrauded or to help organize esports events. What a coup by the community! What an astounding moral victory by all the people who say "it's IPL's/Amanda's fault" for their individual situations.
Whose fault it is doesn't fucking matter. What matters is what happens. You can argue morally compelling bullshit all day long, but we either A) help Amanda out, or B) do nothing and QQ about how IPL should have saved her when we had the power to. Yeah, that's a victory.
Shameful.
You make the completely false assertion that IPL is not a stakeholder in this event. They are sponsors, not some anonymous charity who donated $14,000 to PPSL for the sake of good will. The sponsorship affects the reputation of their brand, advertising, relations in the industry, and access to potential commercial benefits and opportunities that may arise in the future. It's a business and it's imperative they get this right. By your logic they should be starting charities for everyone in need since it fulfills your criteria of "losing virtually nothing".
IPL/IGN was just a sponsor. And they went beyond what a sponsor should and is expected to do. Hell, you don't see any of the other sponsors of the event doing something like IGN/IPL doing. You should delineate the line between organizer and sponsor. Sponsor are stakeholders, YES! But they are in no way responsible for the organizer other than they trusted the organizer and sponsored the organizer. End of story. Will sponsors have backlash of any negative actions by the organizer? Yes, it would have repercusions but it doesn't change the fact that they were just sponsors.
If you keep asking IPL/IGN as a sponsor to just simply shoulder everything, then just plainly say all the sponsors should do so, and not just IGN/IPL if you want to be "fair" about the whole situation. The logic would then go, major sponsors shoulder x% amount of the debt while minor sponsor's equally share x% amount of the remaining debt, right?
On November 15 2011 15:12 Vindicate wrote: To everyone who is confusing the moral/practical issue:
What the IPL/IGN should do is irrelevant; the only thing that matters is what they will do.
No, it's not irrelevant. TL is more than just a place to watch streams, it's a forum to discuss various issues with a diverse population of individuals. And many of the people posting in this thread feel strongly that IGN's role in the charity is misguided in one way or another. It's ok for members of the community to voice their opinion and share their feedback. In example, we can thank thousands of protesters and "loud-mouths" for getting us out of a $5 debit card fees that the banking industry was ready to slap everyone with. It does help to voice opinions.
I'm of the opinion that IGN/IPL showed some merit in donating some of the charity money. Many corporations would donate zero money.
But then again, there are a few corporations that have quality individuals working for them in decision-making positions, and the thought process of those individuals might be : "hmm, this is just a drop in the bucket - let's take care of it." Remainder of the money gets donated. Done. No PR stunt necessary.
Obviously, IGN is somewhere in between. It went half-way and then begged our strong community to finish the rest. Just remember that IGN/IPL is not this unbelievably generous and amazing company that they are positioning themselves as by hosting this charity. I've worked for companies that have less income than IGN and would take care of Amanda's situation in a heartbeat if were related to the business. And yes, Amanda's situation is directly related to the business at hand.
On November 15 2011 15:31 intrigue wrote: donated~
oh man if this is a scam within a scam it'd be so inception
It sorta of is. Amanda got her money, it has not been very clearly stated, op not updated, the thread title has not been updated and people like yourself are still donating. Amanda does not state in every post her thanks. I know if I got helped out of a 12K jam I would be spamming thank you post.
On November 15 2011 15:31 intrigue wrote: donated~
oh man if this is a scam within a scam it'd be so inception
It sorta of is. Amanda got her money, it has not been very clearly stated, op not updated, the thread title has not been updated and people like yourself are still donating. Amanda does not state in every post her thanks. I know if I got helped out of a 12K jam I would be spamming thank you post.
She was supposed to get her money from Gus. She never got any. Her Travel Agency still owes around $23K in debt in travel services, $7K has been graciously given from IGN to pay up these debts but still its not enough. Also, TheGunrun paid out of his pocket too, and now Amanda still needs around $12,000 so that she doesn't get into jail and have her travel agency screwed over.
Please read the thread before you make stupid posts, thx.
Also, i find it quite odd that there are some cold hearted bitches who tell everybody to just look this situation over and not care about it because it doesn't matter. IT DOES MATTER TO THE WHOLE FUCKING SEA SC2 SCENE! Its not just one person who was screwed over, team AZK was screwed over, the PPSL were screwed over, and now Gus ran away with $12k in his pocket and right now is probably on a ticket to Tahiti, and what many generous donors and watchers of the IPL stream are trying to repair the damage right now. If you don't think this matters, then just chip in a dollar anyways because right now every buck counts.
On November 15 2011 15:39 GhoSt[shield] wrote: Just donated 1 second ago. Amanda got really screwed over and I felt it was a very worthy cause to keep her out of serious legal trouble.
On November 15 2011 15:31 intrigue wrote: donated~
oh man if this is a scam within a scam it'd be so inception
It sorta of is. Amanda got her money, it has not been very clearly stated, op not updated, the thread title has not been updated and people like yourself are still donating. Amanda does not state in every post her thanks. I know if I got helped out of a 12K jam I would be spamming thank you post.
She was supposed to get her money from Gus. She never got any. Her Travel Agency still owes around $23K in debt in travel services, $7K has been graciously given from IGN to pay up these debts but still its not enough. Also, TheGunrun paid out of his pocket too, and now Amanda still needs around $12,000 so that she doesn't get into jail and have her travel agency screwed over.
Please read the thread before you make stupid posts, thx.
On November 15 2011 15:07 kKagari wrote: The Amanda situation is not sad.
The fact that because of the PPSL fiasco, the esports community is asked to donate a large sum of money to spot ONE PERSON out of trouble is sad, when compared to the people suffering in the UNHCR advertisement we have on TL, and how many thousands we can be saving with the same amount of money.
Amanda should be helped, yes. But perhaps monetary aid should go somewhere else if you are in a donating mood.
You're basically saying:
"Your friend losing his leg in a car accident isn't sad, you shouldn't try to help him, I know this girl who was a professional dancer that got bilateral gangrene and didn't have health insurance."
No, I'm not. I simply find it ironic that we stare at the UNHCR ad everyday surfing TL.net, possibly taking no action in any of its pleas, yet this Amanda situation appears, gaining the support of thousands, and using money that could potentially save a whole lot more people.
Take a step back and look at it. You hold in your hand the power to save one person you have some inkling of a relationship to, or thousands of others you don't know. I would save the one person myself, but thats probably because I'm a cold hearted bitch, however, that is exactly what makes the situation sad.
By this logic, anything we've ever purchased that didn't go to necessitate our survival, should have gone to helping someone in need.
Look in your very room. What have you purchased and "donated" your money to, that should've went to a charitable organization instead.
Acting like someone sitting on a high horse, because a community is helping out a person in one problem and not another is simply downright terrible.
Oh no, I very well agree that I am selfish. I don't see this whole high horse thing you mentioned however; I simply spoke of money used for donation in terms of effectivness; ability to save lives. I did discern in my original post that being charitable probably requires a particular frame of mind (being in a 'donating mood') and that if I chose to be charitable, I would use the money more effectively elsewhere.
Sorry if I wronged you in anyway, clearly how you spend your money is up to you, I am merely stating my opinion, that it is not effective to be charitable to this mattter (Amanda), and that it is sad that ads that appear just as frequently as this issue (UNHCR) is overlooked.
On November 15 2011 15:31 intrigue wrote: donated~
oh man if this is a scam within a scam it'd be so inception
It sorta of is. Amanda got her money, it has not been very clearly stated, op not updated, the thread title has not been updated and people like yourself are still donating. Amanda does not state in every post her thanks. I know if I got helped out of a 12K jam I would be spamming thank you post.
She was supposed to get her money from Gus. She never got any. Her Travel Agency still owes around $23K in debt in travel services, $7K has been graciously given from IGN to pay up these debts but still its not enough. Also, TheGunrun paid out of his pocket too, and now Amanda still needs around $12,000 so that she doesn't get into jail and have her travel agency screwed over.
Please read the thread before you make stupid posts, thx.
Amanda stated that she got the money she needed.
The extra money is going to paying off the rest of the PPSL and the rest of the debt that they owe and also the replacements for all the gear that was lost/stolen.
On November 15 2011 12:56 midgettoes wrote: The 'contract' was with Gus, however, from what has been said this was a verbal contract. Not only would this be expensive to try and pursue, but there is a good chance she wouldn't be able to pursue it. Effectively the tickets were given in advance, ie before she recieved payment - another misjudgement of Gus' character.
I don't know why she would front the tickets up front for Gus without payment in advance. No travel agency would ever front tickets for a client without requiring full payment first.
Amanda's travel agency must be the first travel agency to front tickets for a client without requiring full payment of those tickets.
Imagine going to Expedia, buying $12K worth of tickets, and promising Expedia you will pay them later? Yeah, I'm sure Expedia would front the tickets for you!
On November 15 2011 15:07 kKagari wrote: The Amanda situation is not sad.
The fact that because of the PPSL fiasco, the esports community is asked to donate a large sum of money to spot ONE PERSON out of trouble is sad, when compared to the people suffering in the UNHCR advertisement we have on TL, and how many thousands we can be saving with the same amount of money.
Amanda should be helped, yes. But perhaps monetary aid should go somewhere else if you are in a donating mood.
You're basically saying:
"Your friend losing his leg in a car accident isn't sad, you shouldn't try to help him, I know this girl who was a professional dancer that got bilateral gangrene and didn't have health insurance."
No, I'm not. I simply find it ironic that we stare at the UNHCR ad everyday surfing TL.net, possibly taking no action in any of its pleas, yet this Amanda situation appears, gaining the support of thousands, and using money that could potentially save a whole lot more people.
Take a step back and look at it. You hold in your hand the power to save one person you have some inkling of a relationship to, or thousands of others you don't know. I would save the one person myself, but thats probably because I'm a cold hearted bitch, however, that is exactly what makes the situation sad.
But it makes it no more of a sad situation than exists everytime you purchase anything that you do not need to survive. You're constantly making decisions about how to spend disposable income. All of that money could go to worthwhile charities, instead of to TV, internet, restaurants, movies, SC2, online streams, or other non-essential activities.
Saying that donating to this drive makes the situation sad is implying that the money would have gone to another charity instead. It's far more likely that this money would have gone to a selfish endeavor and that the money any of us would have given to other charities will not be affected by the fact that we helped out in this instance.
Money given to charities is not necessarily zero-sum. In fact, there's likely evidence out there that the good feelings garnered by helping out Amanda would lead to more charitable giving overall rather than less.
Fair enough. I guess we happen to stand on different sides of the fence. Having brought about this issue I will donate money to UNHCR >.>
Don't you find it funny that you mentioned you stare at the UNHCR ad everyday surfing TL, but it was only until this very thread and situation popped up that you decided to get gung ho and self-righteous and then finally decide to donate to UNHCR.
If you truly believed what you said, you would've donated to that cause ages ago.
On November 15 2011 15:07 kKagari wrote: The Amanda situation is not sad.
The fact that because of the PPSL fiasco, the esports community is asked to donate a large sum of money to spot ONE PERSON out of trouble is sad, when compared to the people suffering in the UNHCR advertisement we have on TL, and how many thousands we can be saving with the same amount of money.
Amanda should be helped, yes. But perhaps monetary aid should go somewhere else if you are in a donating mood.
You're basically saying:
"Your friend losing his leg in a car accident isn't sad, you shouldn't try to help him, I know this girl who was a professional dancer that got bilateral gangrene and didn't have health insurance."
No, I'm not. I simply find it ironic that we stare at the UNHCR ad everyday surfing TL.net, possibly taking no action in any of its pleas, yet this Amanda situation appears, gaining the support of thousands, and using money that could potentially save a whole lot more people.
Take a step back and look at it. You hold in your hand the power to save one person you have some inkling of a relationship to, or thousands of others you don't know. I would save the one person myself, but thats probably because I'm a cold hearted bitch, however, that is exactly what makes the situation sad.
So someone who donates to a charity is a cold hearted bitch as long as that charity wasn't the most "noble" one out there. Really?
The terms "Cold-hearted" and "Bitch" seem to have lost their meaning. Then again when every other girl on television is called a bitch, I can see why that term is treated lightly. Not sure how this happened with cold-hearted though. Global warming?
Expedia does not work like a travel agency. Travel agencies have like their own ticket stocks. Expedia is done online so instant payment must be given.
Basically you can issue tickets but work out a payment deadline. Which is what I did. He did meet the first agreement. Then well so far I don't know. He's been pretty mum on the event. Point being you CAN issue tickets without payment right away.
On November 15 2011 15:07 kKagari wrote: The Amanda situation is not sad.
The fact that because of the PPSL fiasco, the esports community is asked to donate a large sum of money to spot ONE PERSON out of trouble is sad, when compared to the people suffering in the UNHCR advertisement we have on TL, and how many thousands we can be saving with the same amount of money.
Amanda should be helped, yes. But perhaps monetary aid should go somewhere else if you are in a donating mood.
You're basically saying:
"Your friend losing his leg in a car accident isn't sad, you shouldn't try to help him, I know this girl who was a professional dancer that got bilateral gangrene and didn't have health insurance."
No, I'm not. I simply find it ironic that we stare at the UNHCR ad everyday surfing TL.net, possibly taking no action in any of its pleas, yet this Amanda situation appears, gaining the support of thousands, and using money that could potentially save a whole lot more people.
Take a step back and look at it. You hold in your hand the power to save one person you have some inkling of a relationship to, or thousands of others you don't know. I would save the one person myself, but thats probably because I'm a cold hearted bitch, however, that is exactly what makes the situation sad.
By this logic, anything we've ever purchased that didn't go to necessitate our survival, should have gone to helping someone in need.
Look in your very room. What have you purchased and "donated" your money to, that should've went to a charitable organization instead.
Acting like someone sitting on a high horse, because a community is helping out a person in one problem and not another is simply downright terrible.
Oh no, I very well agree that I am selfish. I don't see this whole high horse thing you mentioned however; I simply spoke of money used for donation in terms of effectivness; ability to save lives. I did discern in my original post that being charitable probably requires a particular frame of mind (being in a 'donating mood') and that if I chose to be charitable, I would use the money more effectively elsewhere.
Sorry if I wronged you in anyway, clearly how you spend your money is up to you, I am merely stating my opinion, that it is not effective to be charitable to this mattter (Amanda), and that it is sad that ads that appear just as frequently as this issue (UNHCR) is overlooked.
I understand your point, but when you tell people where they should put their money is kind of pushing it. Understandable the UNHCR does help others in need, heck, a lot of people. But you can not and should not push people/dictate to them that they should put it elsewhere. It is their money and their decision.
Did I donate to the Amanda fund, no I didn't. Did I watch the stream, yes. Do I donate to the UNHCR, no I don't.
Again, its a matter of choice and what people decide to do, even on a spur of the moment instances. So, if you want people to donate to UNHCR, then make a separate thread for it. I don't see anything wrong with that. =)
On November 15 2011 15:44 LanTAs wrote: The extra money is going to paying off the rest of the PPSL and the rest of the debt that they owe and also the replacements for all the gear that was lost/stolen.
yet it has not been made clear in the thread title or op that Amanda's portion has been 'cleared' and people are donating thinking they are helping Amanda is the only point I was making. thx.
The $5000 has been collected, Amanda will not be in jail.
I really feel like you guys should close the donations now, at this point people are simply giving paychecks to the " talent " of the event. Which is not what I would consider the Team Liquid community should be giving their money for. I mean I love Tasteosis but it is not up to me to make sure they get paid for the job they did if they got screwed over.
At the very least I think you should update the OP saying that the initial $5000 has been raised. So people do not have to go through the whole thread to find that information.
stated in the beginning of the thread where well.. the money would go to. well there's no official counter so ill have to wait for IGN myself. promise to keep everyone posted though ^^
Was watching the Charity Stream in between laddering and I happened to run into one of the more notorious members of the AZK clan. I had always considered that maybe not all members of AZK were bad apples. But it clearly wasn't the case.
I just got ticked by the general lack of concern for a fellow human being this douche shows after the trouble this clan has caused to a generally peaceful SEA community.
On November 15 2011 15:49 amanduh wrote: Expedia does not work like a travel agency. Travel agencies have like their own ticket stocks. Expedia is done online so instant payment must be given.
Basically you can issue tickets but work out a payment deadline. Which is what I did. He did meet the first agreement. Then well so far I don't know. He's been pretty mum on the event. Point being you CAN issue tickets without payment right away.
Just a question Amanda if you don't mind. Don't agencies at least require full payment prior to actual use of the ticket? Or at least a substantial percentage of 50% or more before the ticket is actually used?
I'm curious because of all the agencies we've used here in the Phil (Be it a family or just a personal trip), we pay reservation/downpayment for the ticket and that's okay. But before we actually use it, shouldn't the terms be at a substantial amount is paid prior to actually using the ticket?
So, on my previous question, are you in part or in whole an owner of the travel agency? Or simply an employee?
I worked my way to get an agreement going. Each agency has their own rules in doing so. Since the agency knows that I always pay on time, they found it to be ok and did give me a deadline and reminded me of their turnover date as well.
He did pay the agreed tickets be paid first before I issue the rest (so in part it still did stand as a "downpayment").
On November 15 2011 15:07 kKagari wrote: The Amanda situation is not sad.
The fact that because of the PPSL fiasco, the esports community is asked to donate a large sum of money to spot ONE PERSON out of trouble is sad, when compared to the people suffering in the UNHCR advertisement we have on TL, and how many thousands we can be saving with the same amount of money.
Amanda should be helped, yes. But perhaps monetary aid should go somewhere else if you are in a donating mood.
You're basically saying:
"Your friend losing his leg in a car accident isn't sad, you shouldn't try to help him, I know this girl who was a professional dancer that got bilateral gangrene and didn't have health insurance."
No, I'm not. I simply find it ironic that we stare at the UNHCR ad everyday surfing TL.net, possibly taking no action in any of its pleas, yet this Amanda situation appears, gaining the support of thousands, and using money that could potentially save a whole lot more people.
Take a step back and look at it. You hold in your hand the power to save one person you have some inkling of a relationship to, or thousands of others you don't know. I would save the one person myself, but thats probably because I'm a cold hearted bitch, however, that is exactly what makes the situation sad.
By this logic, anything we've ever purchased that didn't go to necessitate our survival, should have gone to helping someone in need.
Look in your very room. What have you purchased and "donated" your money to, that should've went to a charitable organization instead.
Acting like someone sitting on a high horse, because a community is helping out a person in one problem and not another is simply downright terrible.
Oh no, I very well agree that I am selfish. I don't see this whole high horse thing you mentioned however; I simply spoke of money used for donation in terms of effectivness; ability to save lives. I did discern in my original post that being charitable probably requires a particular frame of mind (being in a 'donating mood') and that if I chose to be charitable, I would use the money more effectively elsewhere.
Sorry if I wronged you in anyway, clearly how you spend your money is up to you, I am merely stating my opinion, that it is not effective to be charitable to this mattter (Amanda), and that it is sad that ads that appear just as frequently as this issue (UNHCR) is overlooked.
I understand your point, but when you tell people where they should put their money is kind of pushing it. Understandable the UNHCR does help others in need, heck, a lot of people. But you can not and should not push people/dictate to them that they should put it elsewhere. It is their money and their decision.
Did I donate to the Amanda fund, no I didn't. Did I watch the stream, yes. Do I donate to the UNHCR, no I don't.
Again, its a matter of choice and what people decide to do, even on a spur of the moment instances. So, if you want people to donate to UNHCR, then make a separate thread for it. I don't see anything wrong with that. =)
Sigh, for the record, i believe ive only made suggestions towards the unhcr donation and was not 'pushing'anyone to do anything,excuse me if hat has been misrepresented. I stand by my point however, hat i do not agree with this donation drive (as do some others here) but good luck to you all fine folks out there willing to help. To all the others who have the thirst to berate me with 'high horsery' i have stated before i have nor had any intentions of that and it is unfortunate you choose to interpret my demeanor as such.
The $5000 has been collected, Amanda will not be in jail.
I really feel like you guys should close the donations now, at this point people are simply giving paychecks to the " talent " of the event. Which is not what I would consider the Team Liquid community should be giving their money for. I mean I love Tasteosis but it is not up to me to make sure they get paid for the job they did if they got screwed over.
At the very least I think you should update the OP saying that the initial $5000 has been raised. So people do not have to go through the whole thread to find that information.
Edit: Mod edit at the top is much appreciated.
Ya agree, I watched stream, my ad revenue helped a bit and I'm glad that Amanda has not been left $12k in the hole. Donations should be closed.
Love Tastosis etc, but they lucked out in choosing to provide their services to an event that could not pay them.
And before I get flamed, the amount that the casters, talent, production etc, are missing, does not result in them being sued or possibly facing jail for unpaid monies, so the two are completely separate!
The $5000 has been collected, Amanda will not be in jail.
I really feel like you guys should close the donations now, at this point people are simply giving paychecks to the " talent " of the event. Which is not what I would consider the Team Liquid community should be giving their money for. I mean I love Tasteosis but it is not up to me to make sure they get paid for the job they did if they got screwed over.
At the very least I think you should update the OP saying that the initial $5000 has been raised. So people do not have to go through the whole thread to find that information.
Edit: Mod edit at the top is much appreciated.
Ya agree, I watched stream, my ad revenue helped a bit and I'm glad that Amanda has not been left $12k in the hole. Donations should be closed.
Love Tastosis etc, but they lucked out in choosing to provide their services to an event that could not pay them.
And before I get flamed, the amount that the casters, talent, production etc, are missing, does not result in them being sued or possibly facing jail for unpaid monies, so the two are completely separate!
If there's anyone deserving to get paid, it's TorcH. That dude stepped up and saved IGN/PPSL event.
On November 15 2011 15:54 LiveForever wrote: Was watching the Charity Stream in between laddering and I happened to run into one of the more notorious members of the AZK clan. I had always considered that maybe not all members of AZK were bad apples. But it clearly wasn't the case.
I just got ticked by the general lack of concern for a fellow human being this douche shows after the trouble this clan has caused to a generally peaceful SEA community.
Oh ho that guy. Just yesterday he called everyone asking for details a "random no name scrub" Then proceeded to tell everyone to buzz off, saying this was between AZK and their sponsors. And that we'd be "humiliated" after the truth comes out.
And now the community just paid for $5000 of the debt that resulted from their fuck up and he's still got the balls to act that way. lol. Just lol.
Let's ensure that the coverage of Gus' debt obligations by donations doesn't abrogate his responsibility. I fear that if all the casters and staff of the event have their payments covered by donations, nobody will have any incentive to pursue Gus in any form... Nobody will have any financial incentive to stop Gus from stealing thousands of dollars. Such a sad situation that this scumbag may get away with this.
EPT
Moon vs 
azk.JS, 
MarineKingPrime vs 
![[image loading]](http://cfile21.uf.tistory.com/image/19586A3F4EBF84AA3518D5)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5Asqv.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://technogra.ph/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/ppsl-ipl4poster.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/802/azk.jpg/)
