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On August 11 2011 11:38 hiturheartx wrote:
i dont care if people think toss is the easiest race, but i think terran players should understand that their race is the most ridiculous right now
1. blue flame hellions.
2. flying dts
3. fkin dropship healers
4. MULEs. i once watched tourney or something.. and the terran killed off most of his SCVs late game and started massing OCs. the commentators said it was a legit tactic.. 'MULE economy' seriously. i face palmed at how ridiculous this race is when i heard those 2 words.
Terrans should also think about the 111, a very limited skill all-in that is one of the very few strats (or maybe only one in the TvP matchup) that is still extremely difficult to stop even when scouted early and prepared for. Tons of debate on how to stop it and top pros collapse to it constantly despite likely training like hell for it.
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The amount of stupidity shown by some people truly astounds me. I am honestly surprised by how dense, self-centered, self-serving, and overly biased people can be. It is with absolute and complete lies to oneself that some of these things can be believed.
Believe what is real, not what is spoon fed to you, convenient, or simple. That is all.
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On August 11 2011 11:38 hiturheartx wrote:
i dont care if people think toss is the easiest race, but i think terran players should understand that their race is the most ridiculous right now
1. blue flame hellions.
2. flying dts
3. fkin dropship healers
4. MULEs. i once watched tourney or something.. and the terran killed off most of his SCVs late game and started massing OCs. the commentators said it was a legit tactic.. 'MULE economy' seriously. i face palmed at how ridiculous this race is when i heard those 2 words.
I remember Kennigit once saying on SOTG that he'd like to show people what TL would be like sans moderation for a while to show them why moderation is so strict here.
Is this that? It's time to nuke this thread.
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On August 11 2011 09:08 Shooks wrote:
Another thread with bronze level players commenting, sigh...
People talking about Protoss macro as if it's easy when we're the only race that can't really build units while micro'ing, people talking about how it's also easy to make gates, what? Terran have to make rax's, not much difference...
Point is, this thread is pointless, I wasn't lying when I said bronze level players, it's quite obvious the majority of the people posting have never even played at a high level if they think Protoss is A-moving race when that will get demolished by a MMM army with emp or an infestor based zerg army, Protoss is the most unforgiving race in terms of micro.
It also depends of which matchups, TvP is by far the most 1 dimensional matchup in the game, most top Terrans agree that it's a simple matchup for Terran.
And the most forgiving race in terms of macro after micro goes to shit.
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On August 11 2011 11:25 eourcs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 11:14 ZenithM wrote:
I would also like to point out that while you're here rambling about Protoss being so ez and OP, it's also the most active community in the Strategy section of this forum. Look at all those "PvX" builds, guides that are regularly at the top of discussions:
[G] Safe PvP - Defensive 3 Gate
[G] QTIP’s guide to defending the 1-1-1 (PvT)
[G]HuK! PvT 20food 1gate FE
[G] PVP: Robo twilight
All of those aim for the longer game or the safe play.
Now look at some terran TvP guides in this section:
[G] StimmedProbe's TvP 1-1-1 All-in/Contain
[G] Warden’s TvP 1:1:1 into "Terran Death Ball"
[G] (T) 3 racks : Cheesing your way to GM league
Which are all some kind of allinnish timing attacks. So who is abusing the easy race now? Who is aiming to just ez-cheese their way to master?
On that topic, Zerg is more of a reactive race and the least proned to cheese imo, except economically (which you must prevent), so there is obviously a lesser amount of pre-made build.
(While I admit that this message is a bit trollish (which actually quite fits this thread honestly), you must admit that there are way less "[G] Super Ultimate PvX free win to GM" threads that there are terran ones...and Geiko the author of the infamous 3rax is actually a protoss player who also make good P guides...) You should actually read the guides. PvP is matchup that revolves around low Eco so saying it reaches for the long game is kind of a dumb point . The huk build is pretty much a cute 4gate (cut tons of probes but have nexus if it fails). As for the 111 guides , it's a big issue right now so ofcourse both sides will talk about it. The warden tvp is kind of a macro build , which only allins in specific situations where the Protoss is greedy. The 3rax build is a really dumb build that only kinda works vs Zerg, and shouldn't get any attention but somehow it does.
I read all those guides, obviously. Would I try to make a point off of it otherwise?
PvP is a short matchup, ask all protoss players, "the longer game" usually means the post 4gate phase, and that's about it. Sorry if we don't "enjoy" a 50 minutes siege fest as our mirror matchup.
HuK's build is not a 4gate, you should actually read this guide. It doesn't even build 4 gates, and it doesn't "fail", it's a fast expand build with pressure, get your facts straight.
For all those T builds, I don't care that much, terrans have the tendency to always find P greedy and all in to "punish it" anyway (maybe punish them just to even think about playing the game). Just look at the 1-1-1: you can say "Ok, I killed 2 probes with my banshee and he's expanding, I can now all in lolol" or "Ok, he's on one base and he's teching, he won't be able to hold the siege contain and I can all in lolol". But at the end of the day, it isn't punishing Protoss for playing greedy, it's more like "This build is insanely hard to stop atm, so might as well have an easy win there."
But I can agree with you that my point was not thebest (I said so in fact), you could have just said that I was kinda picking the most gimmicky Terran builds I could find and just overlooking other interesting TvZ or TvT builds.
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It has to do with the fact that the death ball is a viable strategy in any matchup (PvX). Whereas as zerg or terran sometimes we cannot just build a huge ball and bust the opponent's base (we have to drop, harras, gain map control, leap frog, spread our units, and what not). That is not to say that protoss doesn't require any micro or multi tasking, it is just to say that they get away with less of it (even if sometimes they can micro as much as other races).
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We all know Terran is the easiest race, I just came in here to shut down all the Protoss whiners who don't know anything about statistics, and how flawed the monthly stats are.
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On August 11 2011 11:43 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 11:38 hiturheartx wrote:
i dont care if people think toss is the easiest race, but i think terran players should understand that their race is the most ridiculous right now
1. blue flame hellions.
2. flying dts
3. fkin dropship healers
4. MULEs. i once watched tourney or something.. and the terran killed off most of his SCVs late game and started massing OCs. the commentators said it was a legit tactic.. 'MULE economy' seriously. i face palmed at how ridiculous this race is when i heard those 2 words. I remember Kennigit once saying on SOTG that he'd like to show people what TL would be like sans moderation for a while to show them why moderation is so strict here. Is this that? It's time to nuke this thread.
oh my, people actually bring up valid points and obvious flaws in the game balance? hit them with the ban hammer! show no mercy. NOONE points out obvious game design flaws on my watch!
care to explain to me how terran having flying DTs with range that actually works well as an addition to your army DESPITE your opponent having detection (unlike DTS) makes any sense? or are you just gonna sidestep any kind of argument by making another "peole wo discuss balance r st00pid the game is fine stfu"-post?
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On August 11 2011 11:39 dar5283 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 11:34 ribboo wrote:On August 11 2011 11:30 dar5283 wrote:On August 11 2011 11:22 ribboo wrote:On August 11 2011 11:17 dar5283 wrote:I noticed on the first page, someone said Protoss have the lowest winrate. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/mlg-anaheim-sc2-stats/Stats from MLG Anaheim. These stats actually include the number of players in each race, which is fairly equal. The other chart from Korean tournaments is SOOOO flawed. No total number of players for each race, and we all know Terrans run Korea. So look at the international one? http://i.imgur.com/uaVuw.png20.000 games beat a couple of hundreds when it comes to statistics, any day. Those games were from ladder? The ladder that includes leagues like bronze/silver/gold/plat/low-mid masters? How many players tell you ladder is for trying out different builds, etc. I've watched numerous streams, where the streamer is talking about how he should be taking ladder more serious, etc. Bring me tournament statistics where all races have same number of players, with the same level of skill(or something very close), that shows Protoss struggling. Please, please show me. There are a very small number of Protoss' in tournaments recently, and when they don't do well, people don't even take into consideration all the other factors that make a genuine stat sheet. People who are going to argue with their only piece of information is a stat sheet with SOOOOOOOOOOO many flaws, need to take a basic stat class, and learn some things. It's by far the most valid statistics we have. -.- What don't you understand about statistics? Like, seriously, do I need to explain this again? WHERE IS THE NUMBER OF PLAYERS FOR EACH RACE? Not only that, but some of those stats have 2v2 games from EGMC, LMFAO!!!!
613 Terrans, 578 Zergs and 611 Protosses make up the statistics.
And no, 2v2 games are obviously not included. How are you gonna get a XvX match-up in a 2v2?
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In BW, protoss was definitely the easiest race.
I feel this is the same in SC2 as well. This is because they have a good all-purpose unit that can be easily massed (e.g. stalker). They also have a lot of early game all-in options. The reason for their current state in pro-levels is that they've been busy all-inning rather than improving. Once the other races learned how to defeat them protosses struggle to find answers.
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On August 11 2011 11:45 Vague wrote:
It has to do with the fact that the death ball is a viable strategy in any matchup (PvX). Whereas as zerg or terran sometimes we cannot just build a huge ball and bust the opponent's base (we have to drop, harras, gain map control, leap frog, spread our units, and what not). That is not to say that protoss doesn't require any micro or multi tasking, it is just to say that they get away with less of it (even if sometimes they can micro as much as other races).
Technically for zerg, if you let a zerg just sit there all the way till the endgame he can just hurl units at you until you drop dead from the pressure. You can't let Zerg do whatever he wants or you will almost certainly lose against a component player.
Terrans are usually the ones that are pressured to go on the offensive in TvP because they are the ones who dictate the pace of the matchup.
On August 11 2011 11:50 Azzur wrote:
In BW, protoss was definitely the easiest race.
I feel this is the same in SC2 as well. This is because they have a good all-purpose unit that can be easily massed (e.g. stalker). They also have a lot of early game all-in options. The reason for their current state in pro-levels is that they've been busy all-inning rather than improving. Once the other races learned how to defeat them protosses struggle to find answers.
lmao. Mass stalker strat. I should try that. 100% win ratio here I come.
(btw, just to tell you from what I know terran has the only valid mass strat. Which is mass marine against protoss with constant aggression).
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On August 11 2011 11:46 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 11:43 The KY wrote:On August 11 2011 11:38 hiturheartx wrote:
i dont care if people think toss is the easiest race, but i think terran players should understand that their race is the most ridiculous right now
1. blue flame hellions.
2. flying dts
3. fkin dropship healers
4. MULEs. i once watched tourney or something.. and the terran killed off most of his SCVs late game and started massing OCs. the commentators said it was a legit tactic.. 'MULE economy' seriously. i face palmed at how ridiculous this race is when i heard those 2 words. I remember Kennigit once saying on SOTG that he'd like to show people what TL would be like sans moderation for a while to show them why moderation is so strict here. Is this that? It's time to nuke this thread. oh my, people actually bring up valid points and obvious flaws in the game balance? hit them with the ban hammer! show no mercy. NOONE points out obvious game design flaws on my watch! care to explain to me how terran having flying DTs with range that actually works well as an addition to your army DESPITE your opponent having detection (unlike DTS) makes any sense? or are you just gonna sidestep any kind of argument by making another "peole wo discuss balance r st00pid the game is fine stfu"-post?
yeah flying DTs that don't 1 shot workers, needs energy to stay cloaked, and a upgrade to become invisible. what valid points these are!
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On August 11 2011 11:37 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 11:18 Phemtos wrote:On August 11 2011 11:09 The KY wrote:On August 11 2011 11:04 Phemtos wrote:On August 11 2011 11:00 The KY wrote:On August 11 2011 10:56 Phemtos wrote:On August 11 2011 10:44 iChau wrote:
When you get out of bronze, try blinking back hurt stalkers while macroing with warpgates, kk? Ok you try queueing up your units nonstop without missing a beat while kiting the protoss army, spreading your bio and getting good emp off all the while microing the vikings so they all focus on the same colossus. Ok this is just ridiculous now. Go back to the b.net forums with this kind of 'HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY EXTENDED LIST OF THINGS I HAVE TO DO TO WIN, HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY SHORTENED LIST OF THING YOU HAVE TO DO TO WIN, SEE HOW MUCH HARDER IT IS FOR ME WITH MY CLEARLY AND OBVIOUSLY BIASED DESCRIPTIONS OF THE GAME' bullshit. Seriously. This doesn't belong here. Alright then please do explain me what else does a protoss need to do beside getting good Storm/FF off to win a big engagement. Go try and A move a max terran army bio against a max protoss army with a good amount of colossus without either of them being micro'd and tell me who win. Terran simply has to work more against HTS/chargelot or Colossus based army to win the battle. You know what? NO. I'm not going to explain to you each individual piece of micro that every race has to pull off. Because that's what balance whining children do, on the b.net forums. If you are one of those people, PLEASE, go back there. Go back a couple of your posts. You say that you have to get off a good EMP or you're dead. Ok. But then you say all protoss has to do is get off good storm and ff...can you seriously not see how fucking blinded you are by bias? Why is that so easy for them but so hard for you? I guarantee you if you played protoss you'd be saying 'all terran has to do is get off one good EMP and my super expensive ht's are useless'. FYI I play terran 75%, protoss 25%. Please try PvT some time, enjoy losing to MMM a dozen times in a row. Until then shut up about how hard everything is for you. Warpgate is easier to use then having to constantly queue up units into production building without missing a beat, I don't think anyone would argue about that. Alright take out the emp/ff/storm of the battle and tell me which of the two army has more action that need to be done in order to win. A protoss need to put his zealot in the front which is just positionning before the battle and focus the marine with his colossus and focus the vikings with his stalker. A terran need to spread his army so it doesn't get destroyed by the colossus aoe and has to kite the chargelot and focus each colosssus with his vikings. Now tell me which has more action in a battle that need to be done in order for them to win. Lrn2read, I already said I'm not getting pulled into a pointless and retarded argument about listing minor micro requirements and comparing who has the most. One thing I will argue is that warpgate is not easier to use. It is so, so easy to go 5aaaaaaddddddgg during a battle. It is much harder to take your eyes off the battle completely, go to a pylon, and warp in the different units you need. You can macro as terran without thinking about it, enough practise and it becomes reflex. But no matter how good you are, with protoss you have to refocus your attention to warp in units.
Ya but since you barely need to Micro in most battle PvP aside it's not that big of a deal.
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I think people mostly hate protoss just because of collossi and sentries. There are now styles that do well vs collossi compositions but the hate has not dissipated and now anything strong that the toss has is subject to hate and "ezmode" scrutiny.
I wonder though out of the 3 races, toss is the only one that relies on an active spell to survive early game pressure and they're accused of being the 1a race. Coll and voidray composition when it first came out was definitely 1a but I don't feel like thats true anymore because the game evolved at most levels where the opponent will exploit protoss' passive play.
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
On August 11 2011 11:38 figq wrote:Average APM by race from 1128 replays at semi-pro and pro level at MLG Columbus 2011: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6xb9a.png) APM isn't a very important measure, but still I thought this could be interesting stats to check out. Keep in mind though, that landing a perfect storm, or perfect forcefields, counts very little to the number of actions, and yet, it's more difficult than building 40 lings/rines and running them around.
Terran and Zerg have more apm because the action when producing units are taking into count
when u press W and warping units that doest count. but if protoss as to manually produce units apm will be arround 190-220 for protoss.
Plus Terran and Zerg are always moving arround their units while protoss need to play defensive = less apm.
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Protoss is considered the easiest because it's balanced between micro and macro, zerg is hard because of it's macro, terran is hard because of it's micro protoss is easy because it's a really nice balance between the two.
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apm is the biggest statisticaly potential number in the game, you can be having 300 apm but not doing what you need to be doing at that moment to win as opposed to someone with 150 apm doing exactly what they need to do and efficiently... apm is as good as your game awareness is.
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On August 11 2011 11:46 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 11:43 The KY wrote:On August 11 2011 11:38 hiturheartx wrote:
i dont care if people think toss is the easiest race, but i think terran players should understand that their race is the most ridiculous right now
1. blue flame hellions.
2. flying dts
3. fkin dropship healers
4. MULEs. i once watched tourney or something.. and the terran killed off most of his SCVs late game and started massing OCs. the commentators said it was a legit tactic.. 'MULE economy' seriously. i face palmed at how ridiculous this race is when i heard those 2 words. I remember Kennigit once saying on SOTG that he'd like to show people what TL would be like sans moderation for a while to show them why moderation is so strict here. Is this that? It's time to nuke this thread. oh my, people actually bring up valid points and obvious flaws in the game balance? hit them with the ban hammer! show no mercy. NOONE points out obvious game design flaws on my watch! care to explain to me how terran having flying DTs with range that actually works well as an addition to your army DESPITE your opponent having detection (unlike DTS) makes any sense? or are you just gonna sidestep any kind of argument by making another "peole wo discuss balance r st00pid the game is fine stfu"-post?
You're not discussing balance, you're bitching about balance. Nothing in your post is constructive - it's full of inflammatory comparisons that aren't even valid ones that only serve to be incredibly biased.
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On August 11 2011 12:02 Ksyper wrote:
Protoss is considered the easiest because it's balanced between micro and macro, zerg is hard because of it's macro, terran is hard because of it's micro protoss is easy because it's a really nice balance between the two.
You just copied my post  However if you didn't, I agree my good sir. However, I don't agree that a balance between micro and macro makes toss the easiest. Macro is way more important in SC than anything so I would say right away that Terran has the biggest advantage.
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On August 11 2011 11:40 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 11:37 Applesmack wrote:On August 11 2011 11:30 Trang wrote:On August 11 2011 09:30 Shooks wrote:On August 11 2011 09:21 grobo wrote:On August 11 2011 09:08 Shooks wrote:
Another thread with bronze level players commenting, sigh...
People talking about Protoss macro as if it's easy when we're the only race that can't really build units while micro'ing, people talking about how it's also easy to make gates, what? Terran have to make rax's, not much difference...
Point is, this thread is pointless, I wasn't lying when I said bronze level players, it's quite obvious the majority of the people posting have never even played at a high level if they think Protoss is A-moving race when that will get demolished by a MMM army with emp or an infestor based zerg army, Protoss is the most unforgiving race in terms of micro.
It also depends of which matchups, TvP is by far the most 1 dimensional matchup in the game, most top Terrans agree that it's a simple matchup for Terran. With that sentence i can now conclude that you are one of those bronze players you speak of. Toss has the toughest units in the entire game. As a zerg an entire control group of lings get roasted in a second to hellions if you look away at the wrong moment, an infinite number of mutas gets destroyed to a thor volley if you missmicro, huge groups of marines perish to two fungals. Nothing in a Toss army dies that quickly to anything. Now i play random so i don't care which race is easiest or hardest, but one thing is definitely true, as a toss you don't have to babysit your units like you have to with Z/T. Not being able to admit Protoss is the most unforgiving race blows my mind. I mean watching Yigioh play Thorzain the other day, can you honestly say that you need to baby sit units as zerg? Infact it's the complete opposite, the only units you need to babysit is the Mutas, and it's a fast flying units....Not exactly that hard if you have good APM. Like shit, I've vsed Zerg's that have just right clicked my Nexus with a bunch of roaches and lose them all then be able to make a ton more since there so cheap Since when is getting all your lings roasted gonna cost you the game, it can in the early game, but so does missing an FF on the ramp, durp. Saying Protoss units are tough is stupid, we get caught off guard and get fungal'd and we can lose them game right there, we get an Obs sniped and cloaked ghosts emp the sentrys and HTs, we lose, we get our collosi out of position and get sniped by vikings we lose, we miss FFs we lose, we have an HT based army against Terran and most of them get EMP'd we lose, the list goes on and on. I am not saying that Protoss is easier (I think this thread is a minefield really), but come on, let's be fair here. You're saying P loses if P gets EMP'd, misses FFs and so on. Sure that's true. But that isn't a fair basis for saying that P is the most unforgiving race. You're putting up a properly micro'd army against a non-micro'd army. No matter what the matchup, assuming comparable armies, the army with proper micro will always win against the army with no micro (I include setting up proper defensive positions, eg tank seiging, as micro). T and Z would lose too if their army gets stormed and feedbacked while they aren't watching. I also LOL at people saying protoss macro is easier. How is it easier exactly? Both P and T build units from their structures. Protoss has chrono and T has mule/scans (which I think is better). Both terran and protoss make their units from basically 3 structures: stargate/port, fac/robo/, gateway/rax. They basically identical in macro skill. Yep, and Zerg builds everything from 1 building and therefor doesnt need to add new facilities to increase production. Also, its cool if you slack on your macro for a minute because your larvae stacks up. Zerg has by far the easiest macro imo.
....half true in my opinion. Zerg and terran have very forgiving macro...especially terran....miss a mule drop?!? no problem you can just spam mules to play catch up....Zerg you can kinda stock up on larva....protoss you miss a chrono on nexus? too bad
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