Why is Protoss often considered to be the easiest race to play? As most Protosses have (or rather as every player), I have often after a win been the subject of the losing opponents rage and balance whining. Some of these "discussions" have been about how easy Protoss is to play. After one of these discussions I actually searched for it and it turned out most people on the many SC2 forums in fact do think that it is the easiest race! I cannot, for my life, understand what is so much harder with the other races. I mean, tech switching and almost never having to look at your base as Zerg? Teching as Terran with all of their turtle units and structures? In my opinion, every race has its harder and its aspects of play. To me, the Protoss has always been the micro race as it has a lot of spell casters, that's probably the main reason I play it. Microing blink stalkers, phoenixes and so on. Having to tech quite fast to deal with opponents tier 1 units and microing while macroing is not what I call “easy”. Of the harder things a Zerg has to deal with we have the decision making, whether to make drones or units and such, and Terran has... ummm... umm....... drop… play? no that EZ... banshees? nah, that too… (jk, jk, I bet there are hard things for a Terran as well).
Can anyone please try to get me to understand what is so easy about Protoss? Or is this discussion as pointless and should be as ignored as IdrA’s balance complaints? Am I right in what I’m saying?
With risk of being totally ignored in any SC2 related discussion if someone remembers me, I feel obligated to tell you that I play in Silver league. I’m not a total retard just because of it, though. This whole thread post is probably a little bit biased as I have mostly played Protoss, not as much Zerg and little-to-none Terran. Please correct me if you think you know better. I’m hardly the most knowing player. ^^ These are just my thoughts.
Hope I haven't messed the whole texted up so you can't understand it . I'm so eager to post it, lol.
EDIT: Actually, I think I missed out on the part where I was supposed to say what was easy with the Protoss race. This was not supposed to be "WHINE WHINE PEOPLE DON'T THINK MY RACE IS HARD!"
As many of you say, yes the macro might be easier as a protoss with the less diversity in tech and unit compositions. But as I said, the micro is harder, depending on playstyle, of course.
And about Zerg having to be at one more base at all times I think can be fairly discussed. I don't think that it is necessary to be all of the time, but yes, it might be necessary to expand at least a little bit before your opponent. And I'd also like to add from my slightly biased perspective that expanding as zerg isn't quite as risky as with the other races. A zerg can almost instantly after the base is up increase their production. A protoss on 3 bases within 10 mins practically get raped by a zerg on 3 bases at 10 mins. Just saw it on WhiteRa's stream. It's not until later that a protoss or terran get use of their expansion.
And just to make a point concerning the lack of multitasking requirements and map control, I think I can fairly effectively at least in Silver league take map control with phoenixes and which as a harrass unit requires a bit of multi tasking if you're going to macro at the same time, same as with blink stalker micro. As I stated in my original post.
in my opinion, it's because they don't have the ability to move out of their base with small amounts of units to harass very well. we can see much more multi-tasking from terran and zerg players while protoss tend to sit in their base more and just focus on macro.
On August 11 2011 05:05 Nible wrote: Or is this discussion as pointless and should be as ignored as IdrA’s balance complaints?
These discussions devolve into unfruitful flaming where posters beat their chests and talk about how their respective race is the hardest to master, weakest in balance, and most frustrating.
I hate it when people say Protoss is 1a move attack win. Protoss requires the MOST micro out of any race. If anything ZERG is a 1a move attack win race (not trying to diss on zerg, zerg is still hard and you have to macro very good). And then they say Protoss is then OP when we have the lowest winrate. Yay
On August 11 2011 05:07 BushidoSnipr wrote: Just look at the hotkeys for protoss thats what I would say
W? E?
I'm aware you're referring to army hotkeys, but the problem is, no race's top players use hotkeys as much as they could or should. Controlling with the mouse is a pretty race-blind phenomenon.
Protoss macro is really easy and simple. Yes i play protoss. And units need semiless babysitting. They wont instantly die like zergs and terran. Thats about it
Yeah... these discussions never get anywhere past balance, claiming players are terrible, and other such things. It would be best to simply look at the mechanics and mixture of each race and determine which you believe to be the easiest to play.
People will always complain when they lose. That's the only reason.
However, I think you might be underestimating the difficulty of the other races (personally I wouldn't say that there is an "easiest" race, they're just... different).
it's not the easiest to play... it's easiest to learn. at the low level, chrono boosting after you used it all on warpgate isn't that big of a deal. also, macroing by massing gateways is very viable. looking at zerg, u gotta constantly inject and stay 1 base ahead of opponent. Terran macro is pretty tough too as you just can't mass barracks, group them all and press a. Doesn't work. pressing "w" and massing stalkers does though. From bronze to diamond.
in terms of balance, i think it game is pretty balanced at the moment. nothing is broken to the point a certain race can do nothing against a certain strategy.
I play random and I also think Protoss is the easiest race to learn and also the "most relaxing" race to play. You don't need as much multitasking to play Protoss.
I feel it's that Protoss can field the most effective 200/200 compositions. Thus if neither player makes any strategic decisions, no harass, no map positioning, nothing crazy, the Protoss will most likely win the game. Obviously a game will almost never play out in this way, but people love to exaggerate.
Pretty much cause of Idra's comments on the matter. Remember when Idra was still relevant to cutting edge play? In all seriousness though it's been around since BW, 1a2a3a and whatnot...
Protoss is the only race where it is possible to not do anything on the map and sit in your base until maxed and attack once to win the game. People that lose to this are bad players and deserve to lose, but Protoss is able to win like.
A maxed Terran off 3 base cannot win like this unless going mech, and obviously Zerg needs map presence to come close to winning.
Basically, Protoss is considered the easy race because they have the best late game army and find it difficult to move out on the map. This results in every win for the Protoss "omg easy race no multitask no scouting no map control" and every loss for the Protoss "omg I out multitasked you so bad you suck so much you skilless turtling retarded Protoss"
On August 11 2011 05:12 DannyJ wrote: Macro is obviously the easiest, there's less ways to flat out die, A-moving is far more successful compared to other races.
It's because protoss has many units, single units even, which will make you insta lose at a low level. DTs and void rays for example. Hell these can wreck good players in very small numbers as well.
Apart from that they also have the easiest to control lategame army in the sense that you can often a-move the colossus deathball in every matchup and have quite some success.
And of course the macro is easier because of the frequency you have to build units. i.e you only have to "macro" half as much as the other player. 1 zealot instead of building 2 marines etc. This holds true compared to zerg more than terran i belive
This all makes for a very begginer friendly race, it evens up pretty fast though.
that's why i play protoss, zerg is way too hard and terran tank positioning is too much for me
same thing could be done for terran except it's A, D, T, S. let's not start the "lol it's a 1a race" discussion, as that's not at all what the thread is about. you can 1a with any race, it's how you stray away from it that shows skill, and it's why people are getting away from colossus and roach/hydra specifically. as mechanics get better, people will use spellcasters more effectively, netting them higher cost efficiency.
everyone has their preferences but i also believe that in general, protoss is the easiest to play overall. im a zerg player so there may be some bias here. that aside, i think protoss is easy because of the very convenient and user-friendly warp gate mechanic which allows to make units anywhere in a power field. also stalkers are a very good all around unit to the point where if you just mass stalkers, youll do "ok" in most situations. stalkers hit air/ground, are medium sized which means they have decent pathing while moving around in a blob while still being resistant to AOE, have ok movement speed and nice range. also, the stalker / collosi ball is the ulimate a-move army and they also share upgrades! Lastly, they have static D that attacks both air/ground and acts as detection. just everything that protoss has is good "all-around" which makes it very noob friendly but not necessarily easy at the higher levels.
imo, it takes relatively little skill to become a gold/platinum protoss player. just macro up and make a stalker/collosi ball with some sentries and a move and force field a couple times. of course at pro levels, i think skill requirement is relatively the same for all races.
On August 11 2011 05:12 DannyJ wrote: Macro is obviously the easiest, there's less ways to flat out die, A-moving is far more successful compared to other races.
Macro is actually easiest with zerg imo. Larva stacks so if you miss using it it saves up unlike for Protoss or Terran. I think decision making is hardest fro Zerg and easiest for Protoss and micro is obviously hardest for Protoss. Terran is kind of a middle ground with hard macro and prettyb easy micro. Terran definately needs most multitasking tho and Protoss needs kind of little of that.
Well, I don't play protoss but I think it's because toss units are really powerful even if there's not that many of them. This may lead to the conclusion that protoss is easy. I would actually disagree. I tried toss for a while and found out it's an extremely micro heavy race therefore it's not really for me.
I just feel like protosses don't need much a sense of crisis management as the other races. Drop in my main? w s shift+click click click click click, done! Of coarse this is coming from a heavily bias view as I don't play protoss! Just my 2 cents about where all the flack might be coming from.
I am too protoss player, and don't really agree that protoss is easiest race to play. For example, up to diamond its even harder to play protoss - cos how many lower league players actually hit the force fields where they should go and how many terrans know how to press stim button? Anyway, to play the race at high level there is no easy or hard race, because, once you have the mechanics of a race - strategy and talent and skill comes in action and then it doesn't really matter how 'easy' or 'hard' is a race to play with.
IMHO: i'm Protoss. Zerg is definitely the hardest race at my levels (gold-platinum). Evidence: a) players have to have a deeper understanding of economy and when you can drone/expand/etc b) when i play as them as random my APM is 10 higher easily c) their macro mechanic is more punishing, you miss the inject you lose your chance. am actually happier that fungal is becoming popular, as it is an ability that requires less skill for what it does, helping zerg catch up!
complaining terrans, on the other hand, haven't got a leg to stand on. /IMHO:
edit:
On August 11 2011 05:15 oskarla wrote: Macro is actually easiest with zerg imo. Larva stacks so if you miss using it it saves up unlike for Protoss or Terran.
Its not about how easy or hard it is to play the race. It is about with which race learning the game is the easiest.
Learning with Terran: - Lots of Hotkeys and or tabbing required. - Constant production needs a lot of focus (e.g. 5ss4aad3sTABdd) - No Auto-Defense-Building. (Except Planetary, also not for air) - Need to learn Stop&Go Firing
Learning with Zerg: - Injections are very hard to pull off - You need battle micro, so your lings dont run into hellions and roaches not into marauder - Need to learn A LOT to defend all one base cheeses you will encounter. - Larva management is something you have to learn which is vastly a different mechanic than the other races
Learning with Protoss: - Convient warp-in mechanic with W as standard hotkey. In most (beginner) games you only need this hotkey, one for nexus and maybe another one for robo/stargate. - Deathball. A-Move is all you need - Cannons which defends against Air/Ground/Invisible - Easiest Beginner Builds (4Gate) - Most forgivible macro mechanic (chrono boost. nobody needs that at the start)
This doesn't mean that protoss is the easiest to play, but just the easiest to begin with.
Because it's just simpler, and requires less APM? not qqing, but I've played all 3 races, and I can say by Protoss is significantly easier, mechanics and APM wise. To be honest, I play protoss to relieve stress quite often on ladder.
Also, an important note: I'm left handed, protoss feels nicer as a left handed. as a Zerg player, i wish i wasn't left handed quite often as I'm forced to do a quite bad injection method.
Protoss macro is the most straightforward: no addon switching, no larva management. Some might argue that it's also more "simple" to have fewer, stronger units than many weak ones.
Of course easy at the start doesn't mean easy to master as Protoss has plenty of room for complexity with chrono boost timings, micro, and sim city.
Also, I don't think you can peg this on IdrA, BW protoss is also generally considered the easier race to pick up.
I'd say it probably has something to do with force field micro vs stutter step. Which one is harder? They're difficult in their own ways....force field is very unforgiving and is either accurate or not, stutter step is a constant technique that (arguably) needs to be used in order to trade cost effectively on equal bases.
This isn't a subject relevant to the highest levels of play, just mid-master and below IMO.
I think macro is the easiest for protoss by far, just because with warpgates it's easy to spend your money with decent efficiency. But that's the only thing I think is easy about protoss
On August 11 2011 05:12 DannyJ wrote: Macro is obviously the easiest, there's less ways to flat out die, A-moving is far more successful compared to other races.
Macro is actually easiest with zerg imo. Larva stacks so if you miss using it it saves up unlike for Protoss or Terran. I think decision making is hardest fro Zerg and easiest for Protoss and micro is obviously hardest for Protoss. Terran is kind of a middle ground with hard macro and prettyb easy micro. Terran definately needs most multitasking tho and Protoss needs kind of little of that.
Larva stacking means missed units. You may get the larva from the queens, but you miss out on 1-2 units per cycle you're letting sit there like that, which when calculating per hatch, can wind up being alotta units missed. Just like when you miss cycles with warp gates, you can still spam a bunch of em and make a ton of units, but you're still missing out on units you coulda potentially had by macroing properly.
A. The protoss has the most powerful units that is hard for the average to even good player to counter (I.E.) collossus, high templar, archon)
B. They have very strong 1 base and 2 base pushes that are easy to learn and easy execute against the average to good player . (I.E. 4 gate, 3 gate robo, 3 gate vr, 3 gate dt rush, 6 gate , 2 base collossi push)
C. simple micro might seem easy from higher level players but lack of micro and army control against toss cant flat out make the fight seem totally unfair (I.E. kiting chargelots, dodging storms,marine control vs VR , etc) Toss is indeed an A move race till you get to a higher level of play where there competition begins to micro armys effectively
I think it's because people think warpgate= toss macro. But this is not true. You DO begin to float money of you don't use them, just as with the other races. If you can use all your warpgates and robo with no extra money, I don't see how that's harder than Terran macro. The unit's arrival is different, the the concept of cooldown/train time is the same. I think it's easiest for beginners because it requires the least aggression (this is a natural result of the core toss distinguishing feature, more expensive, slower, but quite powerful units). As you said, there are things to micro with this race, but if someone lets a toss max, then he doesn't have to nearly as much (goes back to that core idea again). Early mid game require good mico, since most of the time toss is on defense.
Obviously I'm no pro, but this is just the way it seems to me.
On August 11 2011 05:10 Xova wrote: Protoss macro is a bit easier, and yes I do play protoss.
I play protoss too. I'll say that the warp in mechanic part of protoss macro is certainly easier than zerg or terran, just because you can pool up money and then instantly spend all of it and have the units available. It's more forgiving to lower league players. That said, macroing my extremely important tech units (voids, immortals, collossi) is the same as terran macro - and if I don't have those units positioned with my army, it doesn't matter what I warp in, I'm going to lose.
The other thing that's hard about protoss, is defending Harass. The protoss army NEEDS those tech units to be powerful, but those tech units need meatshields to remain present. Because of this two way requirement, we get deathball syndrome, where Protoss has to move 90% of their army to defend a drop larger than a single medivac, and an attack on the third and main is going to hurt one of them no matter what (think mutas in the main, and then a ling backstab at the front/third)
Deathball looks easy to control, so to a zerg player where it's all about "being everywhere" protoss looks easy. Protoss units put together look powerful, so to a terran player who has to drop, drop drop, and then worry about his seige tank positioning being perfect, the "attack move" of the collossi/void/stalker "lazertoss" seems easy. It's just that the hard part for toss is keeping it all alive to get there, and someone who doesn't play the race doesn't necessarily see that.
It's not relevant anymore, but the days of "turtle to 200/200 on two base with colossus/ void ray then amove for the win" still leave a lasting impression I think.p
On August 11 2011 05:20 Sky0 wrote: C. simple micro might seem easy from higher level players but lack of micro and army control against toss cant flat out make the fight seem totally unfair (I.E. kiting chargelots, dodging storms,marine control vs VR , etc) Toss is indeed an A move race till you get to a higher level of play where there competition begins to micro armys effectively
how does that make any sense at all? you could say this about all 3 races.
I think its pretty easy to macro as zerg when you can make up to 20 drones at a time and completly saturate a mineral line within moments and terran has mules... protoss has chrono boost which is a double edge sword if you only spend on probes you can get owned easily by not doing it in upgrades/units
Relatively forgiving macro, and your units are, but are not limited to 1a (zerg at times may feel limited to only being able to 1a (ling/baneling or roach/hydra in large numbers)
One could argue that due to that, zerg is the easiest to play because of the 1a-ness of their units, but its just coincidence that protoss seems to coincidentally be the easiest to win with as well (most people can agree with this)
Other than that, lots of people hate on protoss, so its really to follow to bandwagon
Protoss has such a strong main army ability that allows the user to just keep his whole army in one, usually skill takes place when the user does drops and harass while attacking the main. For example Muta harass with Zerg and Marine/marauder drops for Terran. Yes protoss can do drops like warp prism zealot/dt drops however it isnt common. The reason for this is the Main army is so strong it can likely just win the game for you. So you dont need that High APM of looking at multiple places at once. Whenever I teach someone this game for the first time I teach them Protoss first for this reason.
InControl said in an interview that he isn't fast with his hands but plays more strategically so he plays Protoss.
I am not saying the game is imbalanced. Just saying its easier to army manage your men. All because you are the easiest race doesnt mean you're overpowered. However if you know how to do DT attack and zealot drops while you attack like WhiteRa, I respect you. If you are a player like CombatEx and just stream cheats along with his 1a win then I dont respect you.
It's not the easiest. Protoss units are usually quite cost efficient against Zerg and Terran units (they are very expensive though) which often results in butthurt crying over race balance.
All the races have advantages like this. It's just that Protoss advantages are most obvious on a low level (below masters).
Protoss isn't considered the easiest race. Only idiots think that. All the races have their difficulties - protoss players' difficulty right now is .... winning. They can't do it in any tournament because people have figured out how limited the protoss race is.
These threads are always retarded as shit. It's a bunch of protoss players conceding that Protoss may be easy to learn at the very beginning, but not easy to play, and a bunch of Terrans and Zergs crying with outrage that protoss is stupid and easy and for nubs.
Not to mention the majority of people that post these things are mid/low level players who don't have the same outlook on the game as a high level player.
That being said, no race is easy, the game is hard to be good at no matter what race you play. This discussion is irrelevant.
It has the easiest macro mechanics and lowest demand for skill (hand speed, macro, multitask, etc) at entry level, so it wins a lot more in lower leagues.
Protoss is the easiest race because the micro is easiest. The "Time to live" of your units is so much higher than other units, you get a little more time to react and micro effectively. Ever try to micro zergling on zergling battles in ZvZ? It's fucking impossible. Zealot on zealot though? Not as tough.
It's true to some extent you "have" to micro since your units are so expensive, but so what? If you are protoss and you're playing against someone who doesn't have strong fundamentals, you can win just via micro. Terran can do it too, but Zerg does not have this option, as the "cost effective, long time to live" units for Zerg don't happen until tier 3.
On August 11 2011 05:23 nt-rAven wrote: I think its pretty easy to macro as zerg when you can make up to 20 drones at a time and completly saturate a mineral line within moments and terran has mules... protoss has chrono boost which is a double edge sword if you only spend on probes you can get owned easily by not doing it in upgrades/units
Chrono is a double edged sword because you didnt do it on units but spending all your larva on workers instead of units ISNT a double edged sword?
On August 11 2011 05:20 Sky0 wrote: C. simple micro might seem easy from higher level players but lack of micro and army control against toss cant flat out make the fight seem totally unfair (I.E. kiting chargelots, dodging storms,marine control vs VR , etc) Toss is indeed an A move race till you get to a higher level of play where there competition begins to micro armys effectively
how does that make any sense at all? you could say this about all 3 races.
Because you cant just a move into chargelots or collossi or ht ? but a toss army can definitely A move with chargelots and collossi and roll ur face. how does that not make sense?
On August 11 2011 05:12 Northern_iight wrote: it's not the easiest to play... it's easiest to learn. at the low level, chrono boosting after you used it all on warpgate isn't that big of a deal. also, macroing by massing gateways is very viable. looking at zerg, u gotta constantly inject and stay 1 base ahead of opponent. Terran macro is pretty tough too as you just can't mass barracks, group them all and press a. Doesn't work. pressing "w" and massing stalkers does though. From bronze to diamond.
in terms of balance, i think it game is pretty balanced at the moment. nothing is broken to the point a certain race can do nothing against a certain strategy.
I think it is subjective thing, I play random and find terran to be easiest. For me it is the fact that as terran I do not have to leave my main army so often, as protoss I have to leave my army to warp in units and of course luck would have it I do it in the worst possible moment and my army dies because I was away for a moment But that is on lower level that I play on.
On August 11 2011 05:23 Crying wrote: Its the easiest race on the low levels
Master high and Grandmaster is just so hard
And often it seems people say this. When the multitasking and harass gets better, toss becomes much harder to play. Lower levels tend to play the "let me max game" (I used to be in bronze ) where no one attacks in the mid game. It's all in aggro in the beginning or maxed armies later.
On August 11 2011 05:15 Bluerain wrote: everyone has their preferences but i also believe that in general, protoss is the easiest to play overall. im a zerg player so there may be some bias here. that aside, i think protoss is easy because of the very convenient and user-friendly warp gate mechanic which allows to make units anywhere in a power field. also stalkers are a very good all around unit to the point where if you just mass stalkers, youll do "ok" in most situations. stalkers hit air/ground, are medium sized which means they have decent pathing while moving around in a blob while still being resistant to AOE, have ok movement speed and nice range. also, the stalker / collosi ball is the ulimate a-move army and they also share upgrades! Lastly, they have static D that attacks both air/ground and acts as detection. just everything that protoss has is good "all-around" which makes it very noob friendly but not necessarily easy at the higher levels.
imo, it takes relatively little skill to become a gold/platinum protoss player. just macro up and make a stalker/collosi ball with some sentries and a move and force field a couple times. of course at pro levels, i think skill requirement is relatively the same for all races.
Stalker actually loses in a straight up fight to almost any other unit at-cost. Roaches beat them. Marauders beat them. Marines with stim beat them. Mutas don't beat them, but off the top of my head that's the only thing. The strength of the stalker is that it protects the collossi or HT's (and blink lets it do that better) as well as the "survivability" of blink micro in small engagements - but that requires WAY more micro than the other side of the battle.
At lower leagues as well, forcefield placement is just as likely to hurt you as it is to help. Half the time, forcefields just cut your zealots and archons from doing damage (free hits for m+m) and the gas cost of sentries means you can't tech, (no stargate, no robo) can't have both a significant stalker and sentry count, and sentries don't "really" deal damage.
On August 11 2011 05:17 TehForce wrote: Its not about how easy or hard it is to play the race. It is about with which race learning the game is the easiest.
Learning with Terran: - Lots of Hotkeys and or tabbing required. - Constant production needs a lot of focus (e.g. 5ss4aad3sTABdd) - No Auto-Defense-Building. (Except Planetary, also not for air) - Need to learn Stop&Go Firing
Learning with Zerg: - Injections are very hard to pull off - You need battle micro, so your lings dont run into hellions and roaches not into marauder - Need to learn A LOT to defend all one base cheeses you will encounter. - Larva management is something you have to learn which is vastly a different mechanic than the other races
Learning with Protoss: - Convient warp-in mechanic with W as standard hotkey. In most (beginner) games you only need this hotkey, one for nexus and maybe another one for robo/stargate. - Deathball. A-Move is all you need - Cannons which defends against Air/Ground/Invisible - Easiest Beginner Builds (4Gate) - Most forgivible macro mechanic (chrono boost. nobody needs that at the start)
This doesn't mean that protoss is the easiest to play, but just the easiest to begin with.
The fuck? You post all the hard stuff of the two races then you condense the requirements to P to skew the argument into your favor. In fact, everyone replying that seems so confident seem to be terribly biased and just wrong.. it's upsetting.
Just to contest what you've said about toss, Terran has mules and can throw down 6 for a macro advantage.. how is that not forgivable? When you miss chronos, you never get those timings back. Terran also has 1/1/1 and 3rax, how are those not easy? They have turrets, too. And ooooooooh we get a convinient hotkey. Lololol. Click "4" as Terran with your raxes in that control group, wah-lah.
I play all races, Zerg being my weakest. My Terran has about low-mid masters and Toss being high masters, so I can speak comfortably on behalf of T and P, not so much Z. But what I can tell you is that the races are different, none being too easy or too hard. They all require a degree of mechanics, and it isn't as easy as control grouping 1 and a moving for ANY race, and it's absurd to think otherwise. Big deal, you can offrace as P and do semi-good. Good for you, I can do the same as T. Does that make the race imba or easy? No.
On August 11 2011 05:20 Sky0 wrote: C. simple micro might seem easy from higher level players but lack of micro and army control against toss cant flat out make the fight seem totally unfair (I.E. kiting chargelots, dodging storms,marine control vs VR , etc) Toss is indeed an A move race till you get to a higher level of play where there competition begins to micro armys effectively
how does that make any sense at all? you could say this about all 3 races.
Because you cant just a move into chargelots or collossi or ht ? but a toss army can definitely A move with chargelots and collossi and roll ur face. how does that not make sense?
wait, why can't you a-move into chargelots or collossi? so you're saying chargelots or collossi are these "kill-all" units?
can't zerg a-move a huge mass of roaches into them and kill them if the protoss doesn't forcefield?
can't terran A-move marine/marauder/viking into them and kill them?
On August 11 2011 05:20 Sky0 wrote: C. simple micro might seem easy from higher level players but lack of micro and army control against toss cant flat out make the fight seem totally unfair (I.E. kiting chargelots, dodging storms,marine control vs VR , etc) Toss is indeed an A move race till you get to a higher level of play where there competition begins to micro armys effectively
how does that make any sense at all? you could say this about all 3 races.
Because you cant just a move into chargelots or collossi or ht ? but a toss army can definitely A move with chargelots and collossi and roll ur face. how does that not make sense?
Try A-moving into some vikings and stimmed marauders.
yeah try A moving viking marauder and A moving collossi chargelot see who has the better ground army at the end of that battle.
imo, protoss isn't easy to play but it doesnt really have any extremes such as a zerg player must have VERY good decision making or a terran must have VERY good micro & multitasking ( at higher levels atleast ). I feel like being able to cast your spells well + using a good build order as toss gets you far but at the highest levels of play you need much more.
On August 11 2011 05:20 Sky0 wrote: C. simple micro might seem easy from higher level players but lack of micro and army control against toss cant flat out make the fight seem totally unfair (I.E. kiting chargelots, dodging storms,marine control vs VR , etc) Toss is indeed an A move race till you get to a higher level of play where there competition begins to micro armys effectively
how does that make any sense at all? you could say this about all 3 races.
Because you cant just a move into chargelots or collossi or ht ? but a toss army can definitely A move with chargelots and collossi and roll ur face. how does that not make sense?
Yeah, A-move a gateway army comp into stimmed MM and let me know how it goes pal.
Protoss units have a lot of synergy together to make them strong as a group of basic units. Stalker/Zeal/Sentry is potent in every matchup, and so is the "deathball". Protoss t3 has a lot of splash damage which synergizes extremely well with gateway units. Since protoss synergy is so high, just by having a big ball of units, you are extremly effective with minimal control.
For these reasons, it's fairly easy to get your protoss to a reasonable level. The same thing happened in BW. It was much easier to get from D to C as protoss because it was much more forgiving on players with poorer unit control, macro, decision making, etc. However, much like BW, I think Protoss is very hard to go from "pretty good" to "damn good". How many protosses won Starleagues in comparison to Terran, the "hard race?", or even zerg? Not many. Protoss at the highest levels is unforgiving because their units are so expensive. SUre, at this early evolution of the game, protosses are basically dominating (with the exception of a few notable players), but as time goes on, protoss will become less and less effective at higher levels (imo), just like we saw in brood war.
So, in short, Protoss is the easiest race (pretty unarguably) to pick up and play for a begineer, but at the highest levels they still have a tremendous amount of difficulty bridging the gap between good and great, like all the other races.
I think Protoss micro is easier in terms of applying it, you forcefield/storm and your done, meanwhile a Terran will be kiting his heart out while getting his army picked apart. I played a game yesterday where I could see his units where pretty much following mine while I kited and used drop micro to barely survive. I think its just more forgiving of your mistakes as a race, at least at lower levels.
Actually, I think I missed out on the part where I was supposed to say what was easy with the Protoss race. This was not supposed to be "WHINE WHINE PEOPLE DON'T THINK MY RACE IS HARD!"
As many of you say, yes the macro might be easier as a protoss with the less diversity in tech and unit compositions. But as I said, the micro is harder, depending on playstyle, of course.
And about Zerg having to be at one more base at all times I think can be fairly discussed. I don't think that it is necessary to be all of the time, but yes, it might be necessary to expand at least a little bit before your opponent. And I'd also like to add from my slightly biased perspective that expanding as zerg isn't quite as risky as with the other races. A zerg can almost instantly after the base is up increase their production. A protoss on 3 bases within 10 mins practically get raped by a zerg on 3 bases at 10 mins. Just saw it on WhiteRa's stream. It's not until later that a protoss or terran get use of their expansion.
And just to make a point concerning the lack of multitasking requirements and map control, I think I can fairly effectively at least in Silver league take map control with phoenixes and which as a harrass unit requires a bit of multi tasking if you're going to macro at the same time, same as with blink stalker micro. As I stated in my original post.
There are hardly any *tricks* that a toss can do. And their harass is almost always not worth the results considering the money you put into it. Which leaves you with 2-3base robo/robo+stargate play to dominate. Cookie cutter builds.
zarepath true and if theres any race that should complain about the 4 gate build, it should not be zerg nor terran but protoss itself since just about every other pvp one of the players is 4gating
On August 11 2011 05:20 Sky0 wrote: C. simple micro might seem easy from higher level players but lack of micro and army control against toss cant flat out make the fight seem totally unfair (I.E. kiting chargelots, dodging storms,marine control vs VR , etc) Toss is indeed an A move race till you get to a higher level of play where there competition begins to micro armys effectively
how does that make any sense at all? you could say this about all 3 races.
Because you cant just a move into chargelots or collossi or ht ? but a toss army can definitely A move with chargelots and collossi and roll ur face. how does that not make sense?
That's.... not what is being discussed at all. If a terran player is microing at all, a toss army cannot a-move into him and win. He can't. Show me a pro game played in the last three months where this happened.
Micro is needed in EVERY race to be good. If you think I'm wrong, go practice more.
On August 11 2011 05:20 Sky0 wrote: C. simple micro might seem easy from higher level players but lack of micro and army control against toss cant flat out make the fight seem totally unfair (I.E. kiting chargelots, dodging storms,marine control vs VR , etc) Toss is indeed an A move race till you get to a higher level of play where there competition begins to micro armys effectively
how does that make any sense at all? you could say this about all 3 races.
Because you cant just a move into chargelots or collossi or ht ? but a toss army can definitely A move with chargelots and collossi and roll ur face. how does that not make sense?
Try A-moving into some vikings and stimmed marauders.
yeah try A moving viking marauder and A moving collossi chargelot see who has the better ground army at the end of that battle.
well that would depend on the compositions of the armies. if you have collossi and chargelots and even a handful of stalkers and i have all marines and vikings i can 1a the vikings and then send the marines/marauders in after with a "t 1a" and it will definitely go well
if you want to argue who wins in 1a battles then it's mostly about composition, and zerg definitely has the edge there out of the races because in head on battles without spells they are incredibly cost effective
I think people are still using that excuse from Brood War. SC2 protoss is more micro intensive whereas the protoss on brood war was as simple as 1a2a3a4a5a with a few storms or stasis while terran had to seige tanks, mines, turrets, emp arbiters, slowly push, harrass and build defensive supply depots all strategically while macroing and microing. Protoss in BW could literally build 20 gates, expand everywhere and a terran player twice as good as him could still lose. It is one reason why you see so many bw replays with high apm terrans losing to low apm protoss players and the reason is because to play terran and zerg on brood war you need higher apm which clearly shows that protoss is the much easier race.
Also, if a in bw protoss loses his force to an engagement, he can easily rebuild his army within a short amount of time. Whereas a terran would basically lose the game if put in that situation.
On August 11 2011 05:31 Arisen wrote: Protoss units have a lot of synergy together to make them strong as a group of basic units. Stalker/Zeal/Sentry is potent in every matchup, and so is the "deathball". Protoss t3 has a lot of splash damage which synergizes extremely well with gateway units. Since protoss synergy is so high, just by having a big ball of units, you are extremly effective with minimal control.
For these reasons, it's fairly easy to get your protoss to a reasonable level. The same thing happened in BW. It was much easier to get from D to C as protoss because it was much more forgiving on players with poorer unit control, macro, decision making, etc. However, much like BW, I think Protoss is very hard to go from "pretty good" to "damn good". How many protosses won Starleagues in comparison to Terran, the "hard race?", or even zerg? Not many. Protoss at the highest levels is unforgiving because their units are so expensive. SUre, at this early evolution of the game, protosses are basically dominating (with the exception of a few notable players), but as time goes on, protoss will become less and less effective at higher levels (imo), just like we saw in brood war.
So, in short, Protoss is the easiest race (pretty unarguably) to pick up and play for a begineer. You'll therefore hear a lot about protoss being easy from other weaker players, and to be honest, that's a lot of the SCII community. However, at the highest levels they still have a tremendous amount of difficulty bridging the gap between good and great, like all the other races.
On August 11 2011 05:12 DannyJ wrote: Macro is obviously the easiest, there's less ways to flat out die, A-moving is far more successful compared to other races.
Macro is actually easiest with zerg imo. Larva stacks so if you miss using it it saves up unlike for Protoss or Terran.
Those stacked larva could have been drones mining minerals. If a zerg gets to that point it is because of his poor mechanics. (assuming it isn't a macro hatch or he isn't maxed)
I can't think of any way Protoss has it harder than the other two races other than how much harder it is becoming to safely turtle on 2 bases. Terran and Zerg have started doing multi-pronged attacks/harass/run-by's to constantly try and prevent the 1a deathball. If you attempt that as protoss, you just warp in a round of DT's and send them to each expo and go back to making probes.
Talking about how Protoss can't tech switch makes me laugh after watching MC vs Sen
On August 11 2011 05:20 Sky0 wrote: C. simple micro might seem easy from higher level players but lack of micro and army control against toss cant flat out make the fight seem totally unfair (I.E. kiting chargelots, dodging storms,marine control vs VR , etc) Toss is indeed an A move race till you get to a higher level of play where there competition begins to micro armys effectively
how does that make any sense at all? you could say this about all 3 races.
Because you cant just a move into chargelots or collossi or ht ? but a toss army can definitely A move with chargelots and collossi and roll ur face. how does that not make sense?
Yeah, A-move a gateway army comp into stimmed MM and let me know how it goes pal.
did i say gateway units? Im using a collossi supported army as an example which is prob the most common army toss uses?
I have played P to masters and T and Z to high diamond. I have to say P is the easiest race, sure you still have to understand the little things but the macro is very easy even on 6 bases where as terran you need tons of apm to macro on a ton of bases and to keep control of your army. Protoss has very rare harass options until the 30 minute mark when dt drops or something are free. All there builds are pretty risky if you ever want to do any pressure. Aside from the stages where forcefields are live or die there army is really easy to control
Its quite simple for the beginner because the race is clean and straightfoward.
There isn't droning management involved nor addon shenanigans. At amateur levels I think it might be the easiest per se since you don't necessarily need to harass or do anything other than gather that big army and attack at master and under levels.
At a professional level though, I think P is very hard due to how the current ZvP and TvP are evolving.
This thread was so tempting to open, I should have known I would lose brain cells reading it. Protoss players will defend their race because no one wants to admit to playing the easiest race and everyone else will bash Protoss because they have lost at least a few times to a Protoss who was seemingly not doing anything with maxed chrono on every nexus. It is all in the eyes of the beholder.
On August 11 2011 05:31 Willba wrote: I think Protoss micro is easier in terms of applying it, you forcefield/storm and your done, meanwhile a Terran will be kiting his heart out while getting his army picked apart. I played a game yesterday where I could see his units where pretty much following mine while I kited and used drop micro to barely survive. I think its just more forgiving of your mistakes as a race, at least at lower levels.
You think this because you don't understand what it takes for protoss to win battles at a high level. I am not trying to marginalize what terran has to do but watch a player like huk and how much he constantly has to adjust his units and positioning. Both sides micro as much as they are able to in order to gain advantage, and just like terran if the protoss does a poor job of that he is likely to lose the battle. If the protoss doesn't micro against a good terran then the terran will tear him apart with his own micro.
On August 11 2011 05:24 darkscream wrote: Protoss is the easiest race because the micro is easiest. The "Time to live" of your units is so much higher than other units, you get a little more time to react and micro effectively. Ever try to micro zergling on zergling battles in ZvZ? It's fucking impossible. Zealot on zealot though? Not as tough.
It's true to some extent you "have" to micro since your units are so expensive, but so what? If you are protoss and you're playing against someone who doesn't have strong fundamentals, you can win just via micro. Terran can do it too, but Zerg does not have this option, as the "cost effective, long time to live" units for Zerg don't happen until tier 3.
Easiest micro? What are you talking about? Phoenix and Stalkers are two of the most micro intensive units in the game, up there with marines. Positioning is also vital for a protoss army, you constantly have to reorganize your army not to get rolled over because of some stupid mistake (like zealots getting stuck in the back). There's no 1A in SC2.
Most of the "easiness" reputation of protoss came back from Broodwar, when the Iccup server was infested with D+/C+ protoss players. At that time, protoss was easier at the low level because the uniits could tank more damage, but at a relatively good level (say B- in Iccup, that like high level masters now), there was no difference.
On August 11 2011 05:32 BlazeFury01 wrote: I think people are still using that excuse from Brood War. SC2 protoss is more micro intensive whereas the protoss on brood war was as simple as 1a2a3a4a5a with a few storms or stasis while terran had to seige tanks, mines, turrets, emp arbiters, slowly push, harrass and build defensive supply depots all strategically while macroing and microing. Protoss in BW could literally build 20 gates, expand everywhere and a terran player twice as good as him could still lose. It is one reason why you see so many bw replays with high apm terrans losing to low apm protoss players and the reason is because to play terran and zerg on brood war you need higher apm which clearly shows that protoss is the much easier race.
Also, if a in bw protoss loses his force to an engagement, he can easily rebuild his army within a short amount of time. Whereas a terran would basically lose the game if put in that situation.
So how is that 3+ year Protoss no finals draught working out for BW?
OP: Because most people don't know what the fuck they're talking about. They see a toss strategy over and over again and think "it's so easy, you just do that and win," but don't realize that those toss strategies are basically the only option available to Protoss.
Toss is probably the hardest to play, since Terran is capable of response flexibility and Zerg/Terran are capable of effective multi-pronged attacks. Simple numbers reveal that Protoss investments are heavier in cost at any given point in time compared to the other two races making toss tech choices more unforgiving. Couple that with a lack of a diverse set of units that are relevant in more than one or two points in the game, and you have a race that requires more skill to play effectively at high levels because of how easy they are to predict given small amounts of info. Whats the pro win rate right now for Protoss?
EDIT: Protoss probably looks easy because it's easy to make a stalker, zeal, or sentry from a warp gate based on how many minerals/gas you have and the unit composition will still be effective, but that's a really ignorant way to look at the race as a whole.
To me it's pretty simple, same as BW, if your grandma, mom, sister, little cousin or whoever started playing, protoss would be the race they'd pick because it's the simplest to get a hang of and yields the fastest "success". Which is also why you saw many toss players in the lower iccup ranks who clearly weren't even close to their terran and zerg counterparts in terms of skill level but were still pretty successful. Of course everything changes at higher levels of play and it's not that easy anymore.
On August 11 2011 05:24 jarrydesque wrote: It's not the easiest. Protoss units are usually quite cost efficient against Zerg and Terran units (they are very expensive though) which often results in butthurt crying over race balance.
All the races have advantages like this. It's just that Protoss advantages are most obvious on a low level (below masters).
Where do people get all these facts? I've actually tested around alot, and almost no protoss low tier unit is cost efficient in smaller numbers atleast. Sentries are what can change the tide early game and mid game if you play defensively (ie you don't all-in), otherwise protoss would be Fd in the A. To me zerg is the hardest race, just because it's got the least in common with other strategy games and I know no Z builds for shit.. T to me is the hardest race because I suck at splitting and siege micro, so banelings would just wipe me out once I do a mistake with stim kite.
I think all races suit people and personalities. You can't really objectively judge a race the 'easiest' or 'hardest', I don't think. Just play the race you think is the easiest one and you've probably found the one that suits you the best
mostly because protoss units are the most 'powerful'. for example at low levels, players barely use forcefield and they toss has lot of units that are pretty powerful if you just a-move. they also have the easiest ways to compensate for lost macro (build more warpgates, or make some expensive ass units. they also have the colossus which is really powerful in a 1-A scenario.
On August 11 2011 05:35 isM wrote: This thread was so tempting to open, I should have known I would lose brain cells reading it. Protoss players will defend their race because no one wants to admit to playing the easiest race and everyone else will bash Protoss because they have lost at least a few times to a Protoss who was seemingly not doing anything with maxed chrono on every nexus. It is all in the eyes of the beholder.
It's funny because most protoss players are agreeing that the fundamentals of protoss are the easiest out of the races, but arguing against them being easy to win with at higher levels - so I don't really know what you are talking about.
Played toss to high diamond and then Zerg to Masters. Here's my take:
Protoss have a very easy macro mechanic and the ability to dump resources very effectively via warpgate technology. In a 1a situation, a toss ball will fair better than a Z or T ball will. That is NOT to say that all they need to do is 1a, especially at higher levels. Its just that if all 3 races do it, toss will come out ahead more often than not.
For me, Toss was much easier to understand and execute basic build orders compared to Zerg. I can't say anything about Terran.
On August 11 2011 05:29 Chargelot wrote: "Protoss is easy" - Everyone but Protoss "Protoss has the lowest win rate" - Statistical data
I wonder who is right?
Difficulty and strength of a race aren't the same thing. If terran only had 1 production facility (CC + rax) and could only make marines, macro would be ridiculously easy. But they would get slaughtered (weak as hell). Easy but weak. Could be the same thing with toss and both statements are fine.
Anyways, directly related to the topic, I think it's just because protoss macro is easiest.
I've been playing random for a few weeks now and of terran/toss, I just find it harder to macro with terran. And terran requires just as much (if not more) micro as toss. Again, this has nothing to do with balance. Protoss could be statistically the weakest and still the easiest to play.
Btw, I won't compare either to zerg. I'm a native zerg and whatever I say is probably biased.
As a high masters protoss player currently, high platinum during first beta release, high diamond when that league came out and finally masters when it was introduced (never made it to GM, play only 1-2x a week) I have become increasingly frustrated with the protoss race. We definitely have a GIANT hole in our early game play. I've switched to zerg and I'm playing at equal level in just a few days of playing with a lot more flexibility in everything I do. Map control, tech swap, scouting a hole in my opponents play and exploiting it very rapidly. Protoss I might find a hole and be like well... nothing I can do about it right now...
On August 11 2011 05:15 Bluerain wrote: everyone has their preferences but i also believe that in general, protoss is the easiest to play overall. im a zerg player so there may be some bias here. that aside, i think protoss is easy because of the very convenient and user-friendly warp gate mechanic which allows to make units anywhere in a power field. also stalkers are a very good all around unit to the point where if you just mass stalkers, youll do "ok" in most situations. stalkers hit air/ground, are medium sized which means they have decent pathing while moving around in a blob while still being resistant to AOE, have ok movement speed and nice range. also, the stalker / collosi ball is the ulimate a-move army and they also share upgrades! Lastly, they have static D that attacks both air/ground and acts as detection. just everything that protoss has is good "all-around" which makes it very noob friendly but not necessarily easy at the higher levels.
imo, it takes relatively little skill to become a gold/platinum protoss player. just macro up and make a stalker/collosi ball with some sentries and a move and force field a couple times. of course at pro levels, i think skill requirement is relatively the same for all races.
Stalker actually loses in a straight up fight to almost any other unit at-cost. Roaches beat them. Marauders beat them. Marines with stim beat them. Mutas don't beat them, but off the top of my head that's the only thing. The strength of the stalker is that it protects the collossi or HT's (and blink lets it do that better) as well as the "survivability" of blink micro in small engagements - but that requires WAY more micro than the other side of the battle.
At lower leagues as well, forcefield placement is just as likely to hurt you as it is to help. Half the time, forcefields just cut your zealots and archons from doing damage (free hits for m+m) and the gas cost of sentries means you can't tech, (no stargate, no robo) can't have both a significant stalker and sentry count, and sentries don't "really" deal damage.
roach/marauder cant hit air, marines are more weak to AOE, so i wuld have to say that stalkers are still better overall. although marines are best overall with stutter step micro
Protoss is just harder to break in the late stages, they easily have the strongest fortification in the early game and the strongest army costefficiency wise in the late game.
This just makes the race frustrating to play against. If you let the protoss take position on your natural or just get bases slowly then yes, they are going to roflstomp all over your face. Seeing as a lot of ladder tosses just sit on their asses and macro up while sitting behind a fortification, this makes for a rather emotional end. After all, you dropped him, harrassed him, tried a run by, outmacroed him in the midgame, but he still defeated your army while he did none of that.
My 2 cents is when HotS comes about, they should scrap the boring collosus and give the protoss a strong harrass unit. This will make the race more fun to play and more exciting to play against.
On August 11 2011 05:35 isM wrote: This thread was so tempting to open, I should have known I would lose brain cells reading it. Protoss players will defend their race because no one wants to admit to playing the easiest race and everyone else will bash Protoss because they have lost at least a few times to a Protoss who was seemingly not doing anything with maxed chrono on every nexus. It is all in the eyes of the beholder.
No, Protoss players will defend their race because it isn't the easiest. You're telling me if someone submitted a false fact about you that you wouldn't challenge it?
Protoss dont have many things to choose from... Stargate only used to harass zerg in early, every army composition u counter with Gateway units + robotics, at least 99% of my games!
I recently switched from Protoss to Zerg because P was getting too uninteresting to play, and I can tell you that having good macro and mechanics is much less important as protoss. If you miss chronoboosts, you're fine. If you miss larva injects, you're fucked.
Managing your base is quite easy for protoss, and there aren't many things you can do to show off your micro skills with P besides forcefields. So in general it's hard to really separate yourself as either good or bad as P.
this thread is about low mid to maybe slightly above avg gamers. I dont know why you guys are trying to defend using high to pro level based arguments. Clearly most of these statements are made assuming the 2 players are prob not great at macro and dont micro there armys well at all more then likely and just A move there armys in a fight which is quite common even close to high level players.
On August 11 2011 05:39 Chaosvuistje wrote: Protoss is just harder to break in the late stages, they easily have the strongest fortification in the early game and the strongest army costefficiency wise in the late game.
This just makes the race frustrating to play against. If you let the protoss take position on your natural or just get bases slowly then yes, they are going to roflstomp all over your face. Seeing as a lot of ladder tosses just sit on their asses and macro up while sitting behind a fortification, this makes for a rather emotional end. After all, you dropped him, harrassed him, tried a run by, outmacroed him in the midgame, but he still defeated your army while he did none of that.
My 2 cents is when HotS comes about, they should scrap the boring collosus and give the protoss a strong harrass unit. This will make the race more fun to play and more exciting to play against.
how does protoss have the strongest early game composition to break. terran easily takes that spot with the capability to do damage/harass and not fall behind economically at almost every stage of the game.
I believe I heard some pro player say once "Their stuff is the most expensive so it's easiest to macro and they have the least stuff so it's easier to micro". Don't know how true that is but it makes sense kind of.
Each race has it's easy and difficult aspects. For example, protoss is the only race that has to look away from the fight if he wants to warp in units during a fight. On the other hand, zerg is the only race that needs to manage his map control. (overlords + creep tumors) You get the idea. All in all, I I think it is pretty balanced.
Completely depends on what skillevel the players are on. I mean, on the top-top level, there is nothing easy about any race, they've all had about equal success, or at least all the races has had great success so I say they're pretty even.
On lower levels, the ability to choose whether you want to produce Mineral-heavy or gas-heavy units is a big thing to me. I mean, on lower levels, Stalkers/Sentries/Zealots are all great pretty much no matter the mixture, the ability to stop the gas from floating away while not teching and stopping the minerals from floating away while teching really makes the protoss able to constantly be low on resources early to mid-game and this is a great upside. On the other hand, on lower levels, you pretty much just have to siege to win as T. I don't know, but I do understand why certain players seem to think Protoss is the easiest. I just think Zerg is the hardest after a while, you need to be able to scout adequately in like Plat to be successful as Zerg while as P and T you can pretty much do without. That's just my 2 cents though...
On August 11 2011 05:17 TehForce wrote: Its not about how easy or hard it is to play the race. It is about with which race learning the game is the easiest.
Learning with Terran: - Lots of Hotkeys and or tabbing required. (Same with Toss) - Constant production needs a lot of focus (e.g. 5ss4aad3sTABdd) - No Auto-Defense-Building. (Except Planetary, also not for air) (turrets accmplish a lot of what cannons are for, minus attacking ground, and for that u have customizable bunkers filled iwth marines or marauders... not saying T is OP in tehat regards,.... just saying its not a seperate learnign curve aspect IMO) - Need to learn Stop&Go Firing (Same with every race... That's usefull for every ranged unit)
Learning with Zerg: - Injections are very hard to pull off (Um, what?.. V click?... or do you mean the queen heal?) - You need battle micro, so your lings dont run into hellions and roaches not into marauder (avoiding your enemies counters is important for every race, not just zerg) - Need to learn A LOT to defend all one base cheeses you will encounter. (debateably the same for every race. T and P can get 4gated as well... etc... I think this should be re-named "learning to manage drone production timings) - Larva management is something you have to learn which is vastly a different mechanic than the other races
Learning with Protoss: - Convient warp-in mechanic with W as standard hotkey. In most (beginner) games you only need this hotkey, one for nexus and maybe another one for robo/stargate. (only mention beginner games only in Protoss section.... hmmm) - Deathball. A-Move is all you need (You're right... FF, gaurdian shield, feedback, storm, graviton beam, and positioning are all useless... Again, I'm not saying Toss is difficult or more difficult than other races... just refuting this point.) - Cannons which defends against Air/Ground/Invisible (Also more expensive, cannot be moved (zerg), and every race has base defence.. Not sure how this applies to how difficult the race is to learn) - Easiest Beginner Builds (4Gate) (True here... However T does have some relatively easy openers as well. I agree zerg is lacking here... except for the select few that will want to include 6pool/7pool) - Most forgivible macro mechanic (chrono boost. nobody needs that at the start) (Some wil argue mule drops is. As you can suddenly drop all your energy on mules if you have forgotten... with chrono... it can only be used on available techs/buildingn units... which there may not eb enough going on at the time to use up all your energy... So there is a slightly higher penalty for "forgetting" chrono. However the ability to use this on techs AND units probably makes up for this vs. MULES. Still.. I would not include this as being "easier" for protoss)
This doesn't mean that protoss is the easiest to play, but just the easiest to begin with.
I disagree. My points are in bold. Disclaimer: I play Toss, Macro is definately easiest with Toss... micro mid-late game IMO is probably the hardest (unless you are a ghost/raven using Terran, in which case It's pretty balalnced.)
On August 11 2011 05:31 Arisen wrote: Protoss units have a lot of synergy together to make them strong as a group of basic units. Stalker/Zeal/Sentry is potent in every matchup, and so is the "deathball". Protoss t3 has a lot of splash damage which synergizes extremely well with gateway units. Since protoss synergy is so high, just by having a big ball of units, you are extremly effective with minimal control.
For these reasons, it's fairly easy to get your protoss to a reasonable level. The same thing happened in BW. It was much easier to get from D to C as protoss because it was much more forgiving on players with poorer unit control, macro, decision making, etc. However, much like BW, I think Protoss is very hard to go from "pretty good" to "damn good". How many protosses won Starleagues in comparison to Terran, the "hard race?", or even zerg? Not many. Protoss at the highest levels is unforgiving because their units are so expensive. SUre, at this early evolution of the game, protosses are basically dominating (with the exception of a few notable players), but as time goes on, protoss will become less and less effective at higher levels (imo), just like we saw in brood war.
So, in short, Protoss is the easiest race (pretty unarguably) to pick up and play for a begineer, but at the highest levels they still have a tremendous amount of difficulty bridging the gap between good and great, like all the other races.
If by beginner you mean bronze, maybe. Higher than that up until higher platinum marine-marauder with stim rules in my experience as the easiest to execute build with high winning rate as protosses on that level are bad with ff and on most maps just end up on 1 base without ability to expand. After that with knowledge of their possibilities and what to do against them you win.
Another thing I know from my own experience is that macroing (as far as keeping money low) as terran (even somewhat as zerg) on lower levels is actually easier than protoss, because on that level you are still bad at leaving your army during battles to macro, and with terran and zerg you can build and rally units anyway, not so with protoss.
On August 11 2011 05:10 Lewan72 wrote: I hate it when people say Protoss is 1a move attack win. Protoss requires the MOST micro out of any race. If anything ZERG is a 1a move attack win race (not trying to diss on zerg, zerg is still hard and you have to macro very good). And then they say Protoss is then OP when we have the lowest winrate. Yay
I think you got this all wrong... Terran is 1a move and Zerg is a 1a move- DIE. If a zerg 1a's they are ****.
One interesting thing about playing Protoss is that it can actually help force better mechanics. What I mean about this is that with warp gates you can't que up army so you are forced to learn a rotation. This is one of the RTS basics that protoss play forces on you. Second of all if you are pretty diligent about chrono boosts it is a great reminder about things that are often forgot at lower levels. As you play chronoing your gateways ends up not being efficient since unless you are really good it is very difficult to manage gateways that are on different warp in cool downs. This means if you want to use it you need to use it on probes or upgrades which is great habit to get in, whereas with zerg or Terran have macro mechanic is more of a flat bonus in that those extra larva can always be used on more army and the money can be used in any way you feel fit.
My reason for thinking that Protoss is the easiest is:
1. Their macro mecanics is pretty linear. -- Compair this to Queens which you have to cast injects on multiple hatch every so often -- Or the fact that you have to spend either on mule, scans or supply and if you mule and than need a scan you're done?
2. All toss units cost a bajillion mineral and thousands or gaz (ok ok exagerating) -- It makes it easy to macro as 1000 minerals is spend on only a couple units. While if you're zerg it will take quite sometime to spend 1000 minerals and you also have the larvea restrictions.
3. Warp in -- Altho it doesn't forgive you, it is clearly an instant gratification. By this I mean.... OOPS my macro slipped and im now in need of a few units to defend ---> WARP IN, CHRONO, WARP IN
4. The fact that you can wall in and stay in your base till you get 200/200 without thinking too much. As soon as you reach 3 saturated bases... you're done. The only thing left to do is to get that 200/200 army and that will get you to masters.
5. Finaly... how strong protoss are early game with 4-5 gates or 7 gate expands... will grant you easier early victories.
THAT BEING SAID!
I think that protoss is hard micro wize since you have alot of spells and units to maneuver.
IMO:
Zerg is hard in decision making, larvea/macro management Terran is hard macro wize Protoss is hard micro wize
So yes, they're all hard on some points... but I do find that protoss is a bit easier to learn. When you reach high masters level... I think they're all pretty much the same!
On August 11 2011 05:31 Willba wrote: I think Protoss micro is easier in terms of applying it, you forcefield/storm and your done, meanwhile a Terran will be kiting his heart out while getting his army picked apart. I played a game yesterday where I could see his units where pretty much following mine while I kited and used drop micro to barely survive. I think its just more forgiving of your mistakes as a race, at least at lower levels.
You think this because you don't understand what it takes for protoss to win battles at a high level. I am not trying to marginalize what terran has to do but watch a player like huk and how much he constantly has to adjust his units and positioning. Both sides micro as much as they are able to in order to gain advantage, and just like terran if the protoss does a poor job of that he is likely to lose the battle. If the protoss doesn't micro against a good terran then the terran will tear him apart with his own micro.
I said 'at least at lower levels', at high levels blink micro is used individually on stalkers and mistakes like missed forcefields are punished much more. However I can pretty confidently say at my level (Platinum) I'm usually microing much more than my opponent.
Nobody claims protoss is the easiest at the top level, only at beginner level. The main reason is very basic, and is true for SC1/BW too - the protoss race is designed to have the strongest, fewest, most expensive units. This means there's a lot less to produce and a lot less (in numbers) to control. More units generally means more tasks, both in macro and micro.
To extrapolate the protoss design to extreme - it would be a race that only has one super unit for 150 supply. You build it, and then you either lose the game, or you win the game. And the race is not op, it gets 50/50 winrate, but it would be the easiest to play. That's the extreme form of the toss race design.
On August 11 2011 05:29 Chargelot wrote: "Protoss is easy" - Everyone but Protoss "Protoss has the lowest win rate" - Statistical data
I wonder who is right?
Everyone but protoss is right when talking about Masters and below and statistical data is right when you are playing pros. P is a borked race.
The irony is that you're Terran. It's like if I said "you're in denial" and then you responded with "no I'm not." I suppose that irony extends to me, also being a Terran.
Protoss Macro seems easy because you have a t1 unit that costs 100 minerals and a t1 unit that costs 100 gas, making it by far the easiest race to keep you money low, which at low skill levels is really all you need to win. I used to think Zerg was the hardest when I played Protoss only, but now that I play random think any difference in minuscule. with Terran mabye being the hardest because you manage the most different building types in an average game.
On August 11 2011 05:41 Sky0 wrote: this thread is about low mid to maybe slightly above avg gamers.
why is that? because you say so? -.-
Because the OP clearly stated he was in silver league and most arguments referring to ease of a race lie in the non high level player realm. clearly at a high level ease of race is not an argument but rather individual units in specific army encounters,which is a balance discussion which this isnt a balance discussion.
I believe Protoss macro is the most straightforward but not necessarily the most rewarding. Protoss micro is the most difficult but certainly the most rewarding.
Who really cares what race is the hardest to play ?
No one is ever going to agree upon this subject. Most people are bias towards their race anyways, they want to feel better than their op.... It is totally subjective to say zerg is harder than toss.. etc. etc. ) Everyone is different ( strength, weakness etc..)
F.E. my Micro is awful with terran for the most part, My macro is good. My micro with toss is very good but my unit comp and macro is awful. I just cant play zerg cause of queen injections. xD.
I couldnt state that one is harder/easier than the other that would just be straight up ignorant.
On August 11 2011 05:47 figq wrote: This means there's a lot less to produce and a lot less (in numbers) to control. More units generally means more tasks, both in macro and micro.
MMM: Hit T and go (1a), then slice and target fire, ctrl key macro
SSZI: Hit G, then FF the right places (takes practice and experience), place/pull back Immortals properly, hotkey micro with blink if you got it, find a good spot in the battle to go back to base to warp in more zeals, then pull back ranged units when zeals are dead
On August 11 2011 05:17 TehForce wrote: Its not about how easy or hard it is to play the race. It is about with which race learning the game is the easiest.
Learning with Terran: - Lots of Hotkeys and or tabbing required. - Constant production needs a lot of focus (e.g. 5ss4aad3sTABdd) - No Auto-Defense-Building. (Except Planetary, also not for air) - Need to learn Stop&Go Firing
Learning with Zerg: - Injections are very hard to pull off - You need battle micro, so your lings dont run into hellions and roaches not into marauder - Need to learn A LOT to defend all one base cheeses you will encounter. - Larva management is something you have to learn which is vastly a different mechanic than the other races
Learning with Protoss: - Convient warp-in mechanic with W as standard hotkey. In most (beginner) games you only need this hotkey, one for nexus and maybe another one for robo/stargate. - Deathball. A-Move is all you need - Cannons which defends against Air/Ground/Invisible - Easiest Beginner Builds (4Gate) - Most forgivible macro mechanic (chrono boost. nobody needs that at the start)
This doesn't mean that protoss is the easiest to play, but just the easiest to begin with.
Learning with Terran: - Convenient mule mechanic allows you to get increased income at will, oh and don't forget, you can forget about it until you get to 200 energy and not lose out - Worried about a few lings/zealots running into your base? Worry not! Build a PF! - Most resistant to many cheeses due to wallin.
Learning with Zerg: - All production comes from 1 building - Has the fastest unit in the game - Creep tumors provide a lot of map vision
Learning with Protoss: - Must place FF well to survive early pressure - No access to mobile detection until observer - Expensive army means it's hard to rebuild after losing a lot of units
Damn, did I sound like an idiot... not only were those points absolutely stupid, they clearly only point out one side of the argument.
Now let's look at your points. Seems strikingly similar.
Now that we've all learned how to sound like an idiot, let's try to have an actual discussion...
<Actual Points> - Many of the protoss mechanics do make the race easier to play. What other race has a unit that has 9 range, good DPS, and big splash, that you can a-click to reasonable success? Closest is Terran with siege tanks, but you can't just a-click them (Don't forget where your D key is!) - Warp-in mechanic (arguably) makes macro "easier", since you get units "when you want them, where you want them".
- Warpgate mechanic (arguably) makes macro "harder". If you check your barracks when your current marine is 3 seconds from being done, no one is going to scold you for pressing A. With warpgates, you MUST wait until CD is up before you can start another unit.
I must also disagree with the point of "if you miss warpins, just build more gateways! lolol" making Protoss easier to macro with. The same idea applies to all races (more or less equally). </Actual Points>
On August 11 2011 05:53 Kamikiri wrote: Threads like this being allowed to survive on teamliquid nowadays really makes me sad.
I read the terms of use before I posted, it didn't say anything about posting this kind of thread. It's not a balance discussion. It's simply a question.
And since it's gotten up to 8 pages in 50 mins it's clearly something that people like to discuss, why shouldn't they be allowed to?
On August 11 2011 05:17 DeepBlu2 wrote: Because it's just simpler, and requires less APM? not qqing, but I've played all 3 races, and I can say by Protoss is significantly easier, mechanics and APM wise. To be honest, I play protoss to relieve stress quite often on ladder.
Also, an important note: I'm left handed, protoss feels nicer as a left handed. as a Zerg player, i wish i wasn't left handed quite often as I'm forced to do a quite bad injection method.
A friend of mine had a similar experience. He started out with Z in beta, managed to get to diamond a couple of months after release. He played with, say, 70-80 apm. After a while he got sick of the amount of work Zerg required to defeat opponents and decided to try protoss. He easily got in platinum/diamond with 30-40 apm, saying "this is easy, you barely have to do anything!"
that's why i play protoss, zerg is way too hard and u can't 1a seige tanks
I laughed really hard. That would be a fantastic gag gift at a MLG to a favorite protoss.
-.- I don't think Protoss is easier per se, but that in terms of production it is simpler. It has the capabillity to access many production facillities with a predetermined hotkey- W and the units can be warped in whereever so you don't need to camera hotkey your production location necessarily. Zerg can be like that, but it still needs to be rallied and the queen is a difficult mechanic to master. Terran you just need to be active about moving around reinforcements and remembering to produce constantly. Its not easier, but perhaps more intuitive.
Main reason is because of their mechanics.. Warp gate vs rax or larva makes them easier to manage. But it's the hardest race at pro level because of all the harass and multi tasking going on. One bad warp ans it can cost you the game but in lower league and less skilled player it is the easiest mechanics to learn.
You can cut in workers to get more tech or aemt out and just chronoboost more on worker later to regain on worker count.
I think all the races are just different. Most people find macro mechanics to be one of their major weak points, and as far as that goes, protoss is more forgiving than zerg.
Other people find it very easy to follow a strict time to do everything and struggle to micro in battles or come up with strategies/tech switches on their own. These people struggle a lot in learning protoss.
Overall I think that it just comes down to what kind of weaknesses/strengths you have going into the game, and that can greatly effect which race you find easiest.
For reference I'm a master level toss that coaches all races bronze-gold and then plat-diamond protosses; helped a dozen people jump up at least 1 league. And surprise, different people struggle with a wide variety of things, and while everyone can improve macro mechanics and battle micro, very few people struggle with the 2 equally. (But most people are worse at macro mechanics, thus most people will find protoss easier to learn. I think more protosses suck at the micro mechanics though... just try split dropping anyone below master league and see how they react)
On August 11 2011 05:47 figq wrote: Nobody claims protoss is the easiest at the top level, only at beginner level. The main reason is very basic, and is true for SC1/BW too - the protoss race is designed to have the strongest, fewest, most expensive units. This means there's a lot less to produce and a lot less (in numbers) to control. More units generally means more tasks, both in macro and micro.
To extrapolate the protoss design to extreme - it would be a race that only has one super unit for 150 supply. You build it, and then you either lose the game, or you win the game. And the race is not op, it gets 50/50 winrate, but it would be the easiest to play. That's the extreme form of the toss race design.
That assumes protoss actually gets to high tech level on even footing. It is so easy to deny expanding low level protosses with MM stim pushes because they are bad with ff.
On August 11 2011 05:58 USApwn wrote: how is this even a thread? what a flame worthy subject
I don't see why this kind of post is any more relevant than my thread. And if you want to be taken more seriously, learn to use "." and capital letters.
People say protoss is the easiest race to play for the same reason you made this thread, to troll. By blatantly ignoring win rates/anything measurable they know it will really get under the skin of most protosses. Isn’t it fun to just say protoss just '1a -> win'? Especially with all the protosses who will come in and try to dispute it. Then you can easily ignore any argument they come up with whether it is based on the intense micro needed or the lack of protosses having anywhere near the success of the other races in tournaments and say 'protoss macro = w shift-click-click-click-click-click'.
I think a lot of it goes back to how the game was being played a few months ago. As a Protoss player, you could be relatively successful just by 4-gating or waiting to max off 2/3 base and going with a 200/200 "deathball."
The macro for Protoss is arguably easier because of how easy it can be to reinforce immediately or in a pinch. Most Protoss players don't even effectively use chrono boost.
So at the lower levels where there is a lot less understanding/mechanics/"skill"/etc. you seem to be able to win with the least amount of effort.
However a race thats easy to play doesn't by any means make it the best or better. Some people could argue that Protoss's relative ease to play hurts it in the higher levels as it becomes strategically limited or too straight forward. However, I think thats more or less not adjusting to newer trends/strategies.
In a few years, none of this shit will matter, it doesn't even matter now. People just like to make excuses for themselves when they lose. Instead of being concerned with what other people think, just focus on your own game.
Protoss seems the easiest to learn, I usually teach friends that are learning Protoss. For low levels, I think Protoss are the easiest for the following reasons:
1) Warpgates are very easy to use. 2) Gateway units are strong without much micro 3) Protoss units function best (generally) together, so often toss only have one big army group, which is easier to control than multiple small groups.
@OP: Protoss is a little simpler to learn, and can be frustrating to play against, but so can all the other races. If someone's whining at you about balance after losing, just troll them, or if you're a better person than me, ignore them.
I think that protoss is pretty easy in the first ranks of bronze to mid masters in terms of skill, but gets really hard when it's time for some high level games such as rank 1 masters to GM.
It's like in BW when it's easy to use from D- to C- but when you get to C then the meme I miss so much "1a2a3a" isn't going to work anymore.
I think protoss has the most forgiving macro mechanics. it's from a combination of chrono boost + warp ins + expensive units. it equates to miss-macro friendly.
On August 11 2011 05:56 suxeN- wrote: Main reason is because of their mechanics.. Warp gate vs rax or larva makes them easier to manage. But it's the hardest race at pro level because of all the harass and multi tasking going on. One bad warp ans it can cost you the game but in lower league and less skilled player it is the easiest mechanics to learn.
You can cut in workers to get more tech or aemt out and just chronoboost more on worker later to regain on worker count.
True in the first paragraph, but incorrect in the 2nd. If you miss chronoboosts you actually can't get more workers later on to gain a worker count because time is constantly moving. At any point in time, if you have cut workers and count on cbing them to make up the deficit, you are actually putting yourself more behind because chronoboost causes Protoss to use minerals faster than they normally would while the mineral recoup time for probe cost still remains the same.
In my opinion protoss was the easiest race to play in broodwar, but in sc2 terran takes the cake for the easiest for beginners to have success with. MMM is just such a strong combo if not combated properly.
I feel as though it has to do with the lack of variety in their tech tree. Everything is very simple to use and all comes together in one death ball. If you think about the different types of late game unit compositions, protoss has it very straight forward and simple.
u cant be serious that u dont understand why people say protoss is easy mode. this is coming from a zerg perspective who i'm pretty good at beating P cuz i practice it the most 1) protoss requiress very little apm only hard part is hitting tab to switch between spell casters which in most cases is only between 2 casters so easy. 2) ive played protoss off race and macroing is incredibly easy 3) sentries = map editor... kinda wish i had that would make life easy only way u can possibly mess that up is if u fail teribly which in that case u die. 4) other then the hellion u have all the games best cost efficent units by far... aka collosis/templar-->archon/ blink stalkers 5) u can win games by not even building a single unit... 6) u have a god unit practically which is the mother ship
I think P is indeed the easiest race to learn, but not to win with. I mean if a 50apm silver p against a 50apm T or Z usually the P would win in a macro game, but if the T would just play a good 2rax bo he'll easily win or the Z with a rush. However the Z or T will often choose to play a macro game, because he inteds to get better and will eventually become fustrated.
Keep in mind that Protoss might seem to be the most micro-intensive race only because micro is its most difficult aspect relative to its other mechanics.
Regarding your initial question, I think there is credence to the claim that Protoss is the easiest race for a complete beginner, but whether this is true or not has no bearing beyond bronze league. If you're just butthurt that people refer to your race as "the easy one", then there's not much hope for this discussion. If you're sincerely questioning the difficulty of other races relative to protoss, then I can tell you (having played all three for some time now) that you're pretty off in your assessments of the other two races, but correct in feeling that Protoss is not without its difficulties.
Depends on your playstyle, turtle up and a-move a giant deathball and you easily get into masters in NA with about 60-70 APM and no game sense whatsoever but that doesn't really mean anything since NA ladder is pretty easy. I think that game with Sage vs Sirius showed that at higher levels protoss can be extremely demanding, and it's not like professional protoss players don't have enough APM or multitasking to play the other races since most of them have plenty.
From watching streams, I've heard several top players mention that Zerg is surprisingly easy to offrace as. And I do know of one "offrace tournament" with pro players that ended with a ZvZ finals (with all terran offracers being eliminated first round).
I think one needs to get more specific than just "easiest to play". Easiest to play at what level? I think "easiest to play" switches between Terran, Zerg, and Protoss races depending on the skill of the player.
On August 11 2011 06:03 Jonoman92 wrote: In my opinion protoss was the easiest race to play in broodwar, but in sc2 terran takes the cake for the easiest for beginners to have success with. MMM is just such a strong combo if not combated properly.
maybe in gold league, but if thats the case you could just 4 gate with protoss
MMM sucks in tvt/tvz and is not hard at all to deal with in tvp, in fact if you don't die in 8 minutes and go chargelot archon you can just A-move and the terran will have to have perfect EMPs/stutterstep to win.
But there are definitely things about each race that make the other races go "noob soez, omg so ez."
Protoss is an easy target because, well, those things are just so easy to point out. Warpgates really are just derply easy to macro with. The whole templar tech tree is derply easy, actually. You only need one type of production building, it doesn't cost gas, and you can MASS produce them with a single shift clicked probe.
Protoss can technically remax faster than any other race in later-game scenarios because of the derpgate. It skips the build time of the first unit upon transformation into derpmode, and then skips the buildtime of all derpgates once you are recovering from a maxed scenario. There is also, theoretically, no real travel time for you units. So, in the time it takes to build one round of units, the Protoss has already warped in two rounds, with infinity c-boost in late-game, and they are already where they need to be. These warped in units could include the entire derp-tree.
This is just the beginning of why it is derp mode.
On August 11 2011 06:04 minisockey wrote: u cant be serious that u dont understand why people say protoss is easy mode. this is coming from a zerg perspective who i'm pretty good at beating P cuz i practice it the most 1) protoss requiress very little apm only hard part is hitting tab to switch between spell casters which in most cases is only between 2 casters so easy. 2) ive played protoss off race and macroing is incredibly easy 3) sentries = map editor... kinda wish i had that would make life easy only way u can possibly mess that up is if u fail teribly which in that case u die. 4) other then the hellion u have all the games best cost efficent units by far... aka collosis/templar-->archon/ blink stalkers 5) u can win games by not even building a single unit... 6) u have a god unit practically which is the mother ship
When you have someone using the mothership as a bullet point of protoss you know you have created a bronzie level thread.
On August 11 2011 06:04 minisockey wrote: u cant be serious that u dont understand why people say protoss is easy mode. this is coming from a zerg perspective who i'm pretty good at beating P cuz i practice it the most 1) protoss requiress very little apm only hard part is hitting tab to switch between spell casters which in most cases is only between 2 casters so easy. 2) ive played protoss off race and macroing is incredibly easy 3) sentries = map editor... kinda wish i had that would make life easy only way u can possibly mess that up is if u fail teribly which in that case u die. 4) other then the hellion u have all the games best cost efficent units by far... aka collosis/templar-->archon/ blink stalkers 5) u can win games by not even building a single unit... 6) u have a god unit practically which is the mother ship
When you have someone using the mothership as a bullet point of protoss you know you have created a bronzie level thread.
I think this entire thread was worth it for the hilarity of that post alone.
On August 11 2011 05:35 isM wrote: This thread was so tempting to open, I should have known I would lose brain cells reading it. Protoss players will defend their race because no one wants to admit to playing the easiest race and everyone else will bash Protoss because they have lost at least a few times to a Protoss who was seemingly not doing anything with maxed chrono on every nexus. It is all in the eyes of the beholder.
It's funny because most protoss players are agreeing that the fundamentals of protoss are the easiest out of the races, but arguing against them being easy to win with at higher levels - so I don't really know what you are talking about.
Isn't that what "easier to play" means? Races that require more multitasking will always be harder for beginners but have the most potential at the top (Korean) level of play. Races that are designed for deathballs will be easier for beginners to pick-up but have less potential for top players.
This thread was going somewhere, but then it became popular....
Easy to learn, difficult to master.
Remember, there is lots of whining about toss, but they still aren't winning that much right now, it goes in cycles.
Given the "straightforwardness" of the race, it was doing well in the beginning, because not much more then simple strats were required (arguable), and people were (and still are) figuring out the game. Now that the other races have adapted, it's back on toss to adapt and innovate. (this last part is my opinion based on the two preceding claims).
Stronger units, less units to manage. Poduction facility based. Warpgate tech so you can have your army where you want. Detection provided with the defensive structure. Invisible unit that one shot workers with adequate tech, so you rape your friends in bronze league.
After basics have been learned, no race is easier than another.
On August 11 2011 05:07 BushidoSnipr wrote: Just look at the hotkeys for protoss thats what I would say
What? Almost all race hotkeys are on the left. (by default) As far as I know, protoss does not have any advantage in this regard
Anyway, I think if zerg didn't have to spread creep and larva inject to be effective, zerg would be the easiest. However, you have to sink a good portion of your APM to be effective at the race.
Protoss, however, does not have to constantly larva inject.
I played protoss and eventually switched to terran.
In my opinion its because protoss requires the least multitasking, has the least harrasment options and units dont really require much individual microing. Basically the goal of a protoss is to get on 3 bases and get their 200/200 +3/+3 deathball and roll over the other guy, and there really isn't that much in-between that the other races rely on. Zerg takes heavy harassment/flanking/surrounds and positioning. Terran takes all of that on top of having difficult macro and the necessity of supreme multitasking abilities. Not only that, but the warp in mechanic makes it very easy to fix mistakes in army positioning/static defense placement by simply warping in units where needed.
I think your right in the fact that protoss probably requries the most large scale microing (if that makes sense) in forcefields/storms etc.
1) dont feed the trolls, those who say "toss is A move easy" 2) protoss is easiest in a way that banshee is cheese, 4gate is cheese and FE is cheese. (pointing out fallacy) 3) this perception is created by players who tend to lose against protoss and to their own legitimate reason, it must not be their skill but the opposing player's race. 4) it may have been the case with bw because of less group keys needed but this obviously does not apply to sc2. (2x ling 1 food, 1 marine 1 food, 1 zealot 2 food) 5) misconception that protoss deathball is invincible
Protoss is definitely NOT the easiest race to play. Maybe economy management wise it is, but half of your units are going different speeds than the others and they all have such different abilities that all need to be utilized. In a standard large PvT engagement, what does the Protoss have to do in literally less than two seconds? Make sure his zealots are in the correct position, throw down guardian shield, lay down perfect force fields, psi storm, start morphing archons, and THEN start microing midbattle (making sure your concave is forming nicely, keeping up with terran scooting back, additional fields, additional storms, etc.) What does the terran have to do? Lay down EMPs and then start stutter stepping/shoot 'n scooting until the battle is over. Additionally, Terrans can just hit their hotkeys and have their units rallied over midbattle, something which, after practicing, takes practically no time. The protoss has to look away from the battle, warp units in and tell them to move towards the engagement which in my opinion takes far longer and breaks the flow of the battle more. Also if you're using robo/stargate units then you have to go through your hotkeys regardless, in addition to warping in.
Now, I am far from trying to imply that Terran has it easy and Protoss has it hard, but I'm just trying to illustrate ways in which playing Protoss is certainly NOT easier than playing other races. Each race has their own difficulties and... non difficulties. An angry player of an opposing race will often say that the race in question is overpowered or too easy to play and focus on the non difficulties. Although it's always funny when people tell me that Toss micro is just 1a... bullshit if I ever heard it. Easy part of being Protoss is definitely economy management, not not NOT micro.
Whatever race you play to you will always be the weakest, hardest, and takes the most skill race. Whatever race you lose to will be the easiest, OP, and 1a race. This pretty much summed up most of the mindsets in sc2. Imo each race has their own difficulties and is hard at one point or another. Each race has their strong and weak points.
The general consensus of protoss being the easiest comes from the fact that the general public does not play at masters or above. At the lower levels, protoss seems easier because it gives you instant gratification with your macro. And because the game has been balanced around the general population, toss has been nerfed the most in order to get it to be even in the lower leagues. But at that masters and above level everyone can macro well, so it doesn't matter if toss macro is "easier", and instead tosses have to make up for it by microing like madmen. Just watch Huk's stream.
i wish that these topics would get instant closed, discussions like this are troll's food/flamers fuel. there are certain things that makes the races differ and thats about it, theres no easier/harder, people just play the race that is most suitable for them, then if they dont win they go to every possible forum and write in topics like this, that their beloved race is the weakest/hardest to master/most complicated etc.
everything is weird at a lower level and i don't like talking about anything other than the professional level of starcraft because there are so many varying levels of skill and playstyles.
however, from what i gather by watching a ton of pro matches and shows like state of the game, or even better, homestory cup, i feel that for the most part, all races seem to balance out in terms of difficulty at a high level (like correctly scouting what your opponent is doing, reacting to certain compositions, doing timing attacks, knowing when to attack or defend, etc)
On August 11 2011 06:07 Alizee- wrote: 99% of it is spillover from BW where protoss was easier. So most of the people who never even played BW copycatted and said protoss is ez for sc2.
This. It started before anyone had even had a real look at Protoss and the label stuck. Now people just look for excuses to back up the initial claim.
Considering their results both since release and more especially in the last 6 months, anyone who thinks Protoss is easy is more than a little deluded. The only people who win anymore are some of the best microers around.
As a particular example: anyone who thinks controlling zealot/stalker/archon/templar vs MMMG is easy is certifiably insane.
1) Toss requires less APM because you build fewer units. 2) Toss Macro is easier than Zerg, but harder than Terran. Zerg is punished if they forget their injects. Toss must hit their warpins, while Terran can queue slightly with no penalty. 3) Sentries are rediculously skill intensive and 1 wrong FF can lose you the game. Toss micro is way harder than Zerg micro. Toss micro vs Terran is less important if you are going Zealot/Archon so I understand Terrans saying they have it harder with Siege/Unsiege, ghost EMP kiting, stim etc. Still, Toss micro vs Zerg is really hard. 4) Collosis, Archons and Blink Stalkers are not even close to cost effective. Just try microing Blink Stalkers vs equal cost Zerlings or Roaches or Hydras or Marauders or Marines in the map editer. Collosis is strong against most ground units, but gets owned by Vikings and to a lesser extent other air units. What do Archons counter? They have attack bonus vs bio, but are not even a staple against Zerg. Only High Templar are cost effective and only if they have time to get enough energy in which case I would claim they are not build time effective. Furthermore the tech tree for storm is about as deep as it goes. 5) Zerg can win games without building a single structure. Furthermore I do not know of any cannon rusher that builds no workers. You can rush to a cannon faster with more workers. 6) Mothership? Really? Are you sure you have played Protoss?
Protoss was the easiest back when they had countless effective all-in timings in every MU. The combination of that with the strongest realistic 200/200 compositions, which seemed especially unbeatable in ZvP before the Infestor buff, created the perception that Protoss players had it easy.
Most of those timings and compositions got figured out, unfortunately for Protoss. Turns out the "OP" race actually doesn't have a whole lot going for it. Top Terrans are miles better than Protoss right now, and Zerg, despite the lingering perception of Zerg weakness propagated by the Idralisks, also has higher win rates in Korea. Protoss has the easiest but least effective macro mechanics and is most dependent on micro to hold expansions and win engagements.
Bad players continue to get rolled by Protoss deathballs though, and so to them the race looks easy. It's stupid of them, but what can you do.
The way I see it there are a couple reasons why Protoss is the the easiest to learn. First off, their macro ability is the easiest to use because you don't have to decide between 2 abilities to use the energy on, and you don't need to keep track of a unit near your base. If you stockpile energy, you can use all of it on whatever you are doing at the time and not just increasing your mining.
Second, while I think Protoss may not have the most viable harassment resources unlike Zerg and Terran, pylons allow a huge mobility boost which I feel could make up for this.
Lastly, I think with early game the Protoss is the easiest to manage for newer players due to less amounts of units on the field and able to use those tier 1 units for quite a while without teching.
I think I understand what you're saying. People say Protoss is the easiest race to play because, at the lower level, it's extremely easy to get the death ball, and then just 1A to the enemy, since the Protoss death ball is so much more potent than the other races. Obviously, as soon as you get into the intricacies (deciding what to chronoboost being the biggest one), I think it all sort of evens out. But if you're just a new player, and you build a ton or warpgates and just chronoboost units out of them, you can just 1A into your opponent's base. Zerg is much more harass-styled, and Terran has a lot of micro-intensive decision making involved, but at the higher levels (even high Silver), it all sort of evens out.
I honestly dunno, after watching goody win I switched to terran just to mech every game and it was the easiest thing I've ever done in my life. Of course I switched back after going 5/5 in custom games against the people I usually practice with cause no one wanted to play me anymore if I mech'd and sat on my ass till 3/3 with only banshee and blue flame harass sprinkled in.
what i find one of the hardest things to do wich the other races dont have is actually warping in, what i mean is that terran and zerg can while micrioing - > select rax/hatch, qeue units. protoss actually has to go back to some powerarea, and warpin a bunch of units, and in those 2/3 seconds it then often happens more units are gone than you wouldve wished for x]
I play random, and I think Protoss is the easiest race to learn, at low level. Their units are a bit tougher than the Terran/Zerg early game units and thus you don't have to 'babysit' them as much. This frees up your APM for macro. To contrast this, I feel that whenever I'm Terran, if I look away even for a second, my entire army is dead... (not saying that any race is better than any other, just stating my opinion)
Warpgates burn through money at a rate faster than the other races' production facilities, so keeping your money low is easier. You can queue up buildings with a single probe if you forget to build infrastructure. Their attacking units suffer the fewest drawbacks from simply attack moving, and protoss controls fewer units just by design. These are aspects that make protoss mechanics easier. Protoss players probably suffer the least from having a low apm. The protoss players with high apm also probably suffer due to the race's lack of avenues for multi-tasking and harassment (and thus fewer ways to exploit their APM advantage).
On August 11 2011 06:16 gillon wrote: I'd argue T is the micro race, but that might just be me.
They're fairly similar. Both have to micro for their lives in both MUs. I'd say Protoss wins though since their mirror is like 100% micro. Zerg though...bleh..
In my opinion (dia Z who offraces as P): P has the easiest cheeses/all-ins (I've laddered as P and gotten 50%winrate [by cheesing]), but playing a macro game with P is just as hard and arguably harder than T and Z (assuming that your opponent doesn't let you sit back until you have 20 collo).
In my experience (admittedly anecdotes don't prove anything: but there are no statistics for cheese) when a P 1 base all-ins [ie: 4 gate, star, DT) (at my level): they win 50% of the time even if I've scouted them. In my exp (again) this is not the case for T and Z (excluding bfh drop [and that's just cuz i suck v bfh]).
IMO the bottomline is with toss you can learn 1 cheesy strat and perfect it and probably get to masters: however that doesn't make toss any easier in macro games.
Team games are another thing: IMO in team games P is truly the easiest to play (I play P 50% of the time, so no bias there....) since cheeses such as 6 pool, and 1 base allins are easily stopped by sentries/ wall offs, w/out any scouting info, and cloaked shit is easily stopped since most Ps go collo which auto gets them detections (OBS).: in case that isn't clear enough: in team games P doesn't need to scout cheese whereas T kinda needs to and Z definitely does.
@ those who say this discussion is mindless troll/ racist bs: Its not since you can provide arguments such as the ones I provided: and the race the poster plays can be taken into account. (IMO those people just wanted to raise their post count for e-peen...., like trolling, and/or didn't read any1 else's posts)
Poor players complain. I am referring to ill-mannered immature people, not to a skill level.
In the same day I played games where different opponents: 1. got mad at me for making all zerglings (when he was attacking with all stalkers); 2. told me "you zerg are all predictable...zerglings then mutas then infestors." (of course this is based on what I am scouting). and, my favorite, 3. "Why does every zerg resort to mutas?"
Because you are Protoss, people complain that Protoss is easy. If you switch to Terran or zerg, suddenly that will be the op easy race.
On August 11 2011 06:16 whoopingchow wrote: I think I understand what you're saying. People say Protoss is the easiest race to play because, at the lower level, it's extremely easy to get the death ball, and then just 1A to the enemy, since the Protoss death ball is so much more potent than the other races. Obviously, as soon as you get into the intricacies (deciding what to chronoboost being the biggest one), I think it all sort of evens out. But if you're just a new player, and you build a ton or warpgates and just chronoboost units out of them, you can just 1A into your opponent's base. Zerg is much more harass-styled, and Terran has a lot of micro-intensive decision making involved, but at the higher levels (even high Silver), it all sort of evens out.
I dont think at "high silver" any of the races are hard to play.
Seriously if anyone is QQing that protoss is easier to play in like gold league they need to understand how little difference there is between races at platinum-bronze league.
Anyone can literally play the same exact way all 3 races and win in platinum league.
Im low masters terran and i offrace in customs against platinum players i literally can just make only stalkers+expand, make only MM+expand or make only roach hydra+expand.
I do think that protoss is slightly easier to play from like masters up but before that you've got to be joking if you blame your losses on anything other than yourself being bad.
All I know, is that the newbies I work with (and I mean this in a non-deragatory fashion because they just started playing) all tried terran for awhile and then switched to protoss because they did better. I can only assume that protoss is easier for newbies.
Based on the units, I would not be surprised. The stalker is a really nice all-around units with few weaknesses, and the colossus compliments it fairly well. Also mass void ray is a great backup plan.
At higher levels I'm not going to claim that any race is easier. Zerg macro is pretty difficult early on, because if you miss any injects it's such a huge loss. But later on in the game, if you're keeping on top of injects it's actually kind of easy.
Have any of you guys played any fighting games? There is always that one character with the smallest move list, the easiest special moves and a bunch of decently effective PPPP or KKK combos. Said character will be one of the strongest for beginners but will be hard to win with at the pro level. Protoss is the Forest Law/Jann Lee of SC2.
I've played both Terran and Protoss and to me Protoss is definitely the easier of the two. Playing Terran i feel super over whelmed just trying to keep up with macro. Then trying to micro and set my tanks up while keeping an eye on my marines so banelings don't fuck me? Ya.
I like both but i definitely can see why people say Protoss is easier. But that shouldn't bother you.. It's not like protoss is instant win. It's a fucking hard game regardless of the race you play.
you see even on highest level high stacks of chronobosst on nexus, so protoss is most forgiving when it comes to missing macro abilities,except the first 6-10 minutes depending on build. ofc saving chrono has its sense but not on 4 nexus 100 energy each, thats just lazyness,and yet they win.
People think Toss is easier because they refuse to acknowledge a better player may have beaten them. Then again that's true of whiny players of any sort.
As far as the learning curve goes Toss has a more steady incline for what you need to learn. Instead of some mechanic hurdle like Larval management or juggling drops, you have wider array of smaller skills you develop which makes a player's progression more fluid. Coincidentally it makes it harder to identify a Toss player's skill set as each one usually has a gamut of skills he's developed and emphasized.
I think it's just because at lower levels it's easier to play.
I also think the Warp-in mechanic makes it easier.
Z is "hard" just because of the Larvae, I know a lot of low level players never build enough drones because they're scared of being attacked so they build attacking units when they shouldn't.
T players Queue up units which can be bad. Low level players will queue up all the slots thinking that it's OK when they should actually be building more production.
But with P, a player easily is able to see that once they use all their Warp-ins they can't get any more units so they build more gateways.
And this doesn't include that P usually run around in a "ball" which is easier to do than drops or reactionary play at lower levels.
It's just observation of my friends though and might not be across the board.
I dont think protoss is any easier than the other races but to say it is the micro race is ridiculous. Every single terran unit can benefit from micro through kiting and spell casting but the same is not true of protoss
I agree that as toss, you can dump minerals really quickly spamming 4-6 zealots or stalkers but the thing is, our warpgate mechanism is similar to zerg's inject. If we don't do the warp-ins just as the cooldown finishes, we lose that time forever [ for example, if a zealot warp in cooldown is 30 seconds and I don't warp in my zealot immediately but wait for 30 seconds for whatever reason, thats a whole zealot I'll never get back] And in early game, toss is pretty unforgiving, one mismicro or look away at the wrong time, its gg. I've lost many a time, looking away from my army to warp in and T stims out of the dark and destroys me. And because of the cost of toss units, kinda impossible to build them up quickly in early game. That said, all races have their inherent difficulties.
Well I play random all the time and I personally find zerg to be the easiest, protoss to be in the middle, and terran to be the hardest. Building a single building per unit I want and just keeping up with injects is very easy. I don't really see why at around a middle level that zerg is said to be difficult because of the macro... you just need to inject and know when to make an army.
Either way, people saying protoss is easy doesn't matter. We have already seen over the past year that zergs just complain about other races because they think their race is the hardest to play. All that really matters is how they play at a higher level, and right now they seem to be relatively close to balanced.
First off, I am T. I think that every race is equally hard to play at the very high level. The point why so many people think Toss is easy comes from the lower level. Reasons are the relative to other races low required apm, strong cheeses (4gate, but a lot of people also say T is easy because of their various all-ins etc.), warp in mechanic, lack of harass unit, deathball. At higher level, Protoss is quite hard to play as it is very fragile and doesn't really have some strong macro mechanic (except CB and late game 20gate instant warp-in).
IMO the bottomline is with toss you can learn 1 cheesy strat and perfect it and probably get to masters:
\ Where are these threads? I know of no cheesy strats that Toss can abuse to Masters. I have seen the 6/7 pool threads. I have seen the Marine/SCV all in thread.
I have seen no threads describing master's level protoss cheese that works against T/Z? The only way to cheese at master's level is against other toss where you can either Korean 4 Gate or Cannon rush.
What? In SC1 it was definitely infuriating that the protoss were so fucking easy especially if you were terran and had to click your ass off to be on par. Or were zerg and fuck up once to see your expensice critters turn to blood from one godamn reaver/storm.
But in SC2 I think there is far less of a gap between the races. FAR LESS. The only easier part in my humble Gold Level opinion is spending. When I'm protoss its far easier to not float on minerals (I main zerg). And this is made up for by the many other difficulties that accompany the race
IMO the bottomline is with toss you can learn 1 cheesy strat and perfect it and probably get to masters:
\ Where are these threads? I know of no cheesy strats that Toss can abuse to Masters. I have seen the 6/7 pool threads. I have seen the Marine/SCV all in thread.
I have seen no threads describing master's level protoss cheese that works against T/Z? The only way to cheese at master's level is against other toss where you can either Korean 4 Gate or Cannon rush.
4gate vs. P and 6gate vs. T/Z?
EDIT: Most people are going to say purely 4gate against all races but 6gate is stronger and not that much more difficult to execute.
Unless someone has mastered all the races, in recent patches, its fucking worthless to have a discussion about which race is hardest to master right now. geeeez
IMO the bottomline is with toss you can learn 1 cheesy strat and perfect it and probably get to masters:
\ Where are these threads? I know of no cheesy strats that Toss can abuse to Masters. I have seen the 6/7 pool threads. I have seen the Marine/SCV all in thread.
I have seen no threads describing master's level protoss cheese that works against T/Z? The only way to cheese at master's level is against other toss where you can either Korean 4 Gate or Cannon rush.
4gate vs. P and 6gate vs. T/Z?
EDIT: Most people are going to say purely 4gate against all races but 6gate is stronger and not that much more difficult to execute.
IMO the bottomline is with toss you can learn 1 cheesy strat and perfect it and probably get to masters:
\ Where are these threads? I know of no cheesy strats that Toss can abuse to Masters. I have seen the 6/7 pool threads. I have seen the Marine/SCV all in thread.
I have seen no threads describing master's level protoss cheese that works against T/Z? The only way to cheese at master's level is against other toss where you can either Korean 4 Gate or Cannon rush.
4gate vs. P and 6gate vs. T/Z?
EDIT: Most people are going to say purely 4gate against all races but 6gate is stronger and not that much more difficult to execute.
So now 2 base timing attacks are cheese?
Isn't 6gate considered all-in? Not just a timing attack...
IMO the bottomline is with toss you can learn 1 cheesy strat and perfect it and probably get to masters:
\ Where are these threads? I know of no cheesy strats that Toss can abuse to Masters. I have seen the 6/7 pool threads. I have seen the Marine/SCV all in thread.
I have seen no threads describing master's level protoss cheese that works against T/Z? The only way to cheese at master's level is against other toss where you can either Korean 4 Gate or Cannon rush.
4gate vs. P and 6gate vs. T/Z?
EDIT: Most people are going to say purely 4gate against all races but 6gate is stronger and not that much more difficult to execute.
So now 2 base timing attacks are cheese?
I disagree that's it's cheese but it's slightly abusive and you can use it to get to masters rather easily.
IMO the bottomline is with toss you can learn 1 cheesy strat and perfect it and probably get to masters:
\ Where are these threads? I know of no cheesy strats that Toss can abuse to Masters. I have seen the 6/7 pool threads. I have seen the Marine/SCV all in thread.
I have seen no threads describing master's level protoss cheese that works against T/Z? The only way to cheese at master's level is against other toss where you can either Korean 4 Gate or Cannon rush.
4gate vs. P and 6gate vs. T/Z?
EDIT: Most people are going to say purely 4gate against all races but 6gate is stronger and not that much more difficult to execute.
4 gate wont win you a single game against a good zerg/terran. nor will a 6gate, both races have figured out a long time ago how to hold that.
+2wep 7 blinkstalkers is a much better "cheese" if we are talking cheeses, but thats mostly against zerg..
IMO the bottomline is with toss you can learn 1 cheesy strat and perfect it and probably get to masters:
\ Where are these threads? I know of no cheesy strats that Toss can abuse to Masters. I have seen the 6/7 pool threads. I have seen the Marine/SCV all in thread.
I have seen no threads describing master's level protoss cheese that works against T/Z? The only way to cheese at master's level is against other toss where you can either Korean 4 Gate or Cannon rush.
4gate vs. P and 6gate vs. T/Z?
EDIT: Most people are going to say purely 4gate against all races but 6gate is stronger and not that much more difficult to execute.
So now 2 base timing attacks are cheese?
Isn't 6gate considered all-in? Not just a timing attack...
almost no 2 base attacks are all in as long as you do damage, it is a timing attack
On August 11 2011 05:10 Lewan72 wrote: I hate it when people say Protoss is 1a move attack win. Protoss requires the MOST micro out of any race. If anything ZERG is a 1a move attack win race (not trying to diss on zerg, zerg is still hard and you have to macro very good). And then they say Protoss is then OP when we have the lowest winrate. Yay
IMO the bottomline is with toss you can learn 1 cheesy strat and perfect it and probably get to masters:
\ Where are these threads? I know of no cheesy strats that Toss can abuse to Masters. I have seen the 6/7 pool threads. I have seen the Marine/SCV all in thread.
I have seen no threads describing master's level protoss cheese that works against T/Z? The only way to cheese at master's level is against other toss where you can either Korean 4 Gate or Cannon rush.
4gate vs. P and 6gate vs. T/Z?
EDIT: Most people are going to say purely 4gate against all races but 6gate is stronger and not that much more difficult to execute.
So now 2 base timing attacks are cheese?
Isn't 6gate considered all-in? Not just a timing attack...
almost no 2 base attacks are all in as long as you do damage, it is a timing attack
"all in" overused and has lost its meaning
That's like saying a 6 pool is a timing attack, because if you do enough damage you can work your way back into the game, despite not winning the fight.
So many people in this thread are commenting about a move deathball = no micro.....so since when do colossi start coming out of gateways? The a move death ball can't be made until late game and in early mid game Protoss is the most micro intensive race by far. Ever try a moving stalkers into mm? With FF and blink micro IMO Protoss needs the most micro to just stay alive in early mid game.
Also I find Protoss to be least forgiving in terms of losing the game from 1 mistake, if you lose map awareness for just a moment and let a drop happen or let an emp go off or miss a FF or let an enemy army run up into your face, it's GG right there and then. Seriously,without constant vigilance, any dropship that unloads in your base will almost always be more cost efficient than whatever you send to kill it and it often cripples you right there.
Reasons: - most robust units: they won't die if unattended to, but will not benefit much more if they ARE attended to (terran and zerg benefit more from extra attention)
- easiest macro (only protoss has the magic W key that automatically includes all your gateways no matter how scattered around the map they are)
- probe building mechanic: try building 10 buildings with each race and see who needs least efforts and various calculations (with Zerg making up for lost drones, Terran SCVs all have to get back to mining vs 1 probe working magic)
- least important macro mechanic, forgetting chronoboost isn't really on the same level as forgetting mules or inject larva
People consider protoss the easiest because they're too ignorant to look at their own mistakes and see how they could win games, but instead blaming their losses on some sort of "imbalance"
Saying it's "easy" is incredibly ambiguous, as has been shown by the past dozen pages.
I'm Protoss.
Is it easy for me to macro? Yes, and that's probably why beginners will have a relatively *easy* time playing Protoss- because having decent macro (a.k.a. keeping your money low) is the most essential thing in the game. Warpgate tech makes macro-ing with Protoss easier than macro-ing as Terran or Zerg, in my opinion.
Is Protoss a notorious 1a race in SC2? Definitely not; we need to micro quite a bit. Even if we're just on gateway tech, we often need perfect forcefields, really good blink micro, storms, or feedbacks to succeed on defense or offense. So while the macro aspect may be *easy*, it's not *easy* to micro them. (I'm not saying any other race is a 1a race; I'm merely defending Protoss.)
Is it easy to win outright as Protoss against other races? Not necessarily. The most fearsome early game attack- the 4gate- isn't nearly as intimidating as it was months ago. And late game engagements come down to micro. There's a reason why Protoss is getting its ass kicked in Korea and on an international level. Maybe it's easy for beginners, when no one is very competitive and all you need to do is macro hard... but when you need all the finer points, the race is certainly not on par with the others (let alone easiest overall). And the data defends that.
On August 11 2011 06:28 jstar wrote: Zerg: Hard to learn, easy to master. Protoss: Easy to learn, hard to master. Terran: Middle
/thread
Zerg easy to master.. LOLOLOLOL
If by master you mean get to masters then yes I would say Zerg is the easiest race to accomplish this with. To get to the top of masters is probably protoss and to get to the top of GM is probably Terran.
The graph on skill required/improvement is drastically different for each race. Beginner Terrans are more deadly than beginner zerg/protosses by a long shot, but mid range protosses are definetly the strongest of the bunch, then finally diamond Zergs have the least skill difference from top master zergs out of the respective races. The top master zerg will only occasionally find himself in a position to utilize his skills over the low master zerg, while a top master terran would use his units completely differently than a low masters/diamond terran, and execute builds far more efficiently than a diamond Terran.
Most protosses I see in masters have worse macro than I do. I have ~50% win rate in TvP and maybe in 5% of those games am I behind in workers.
I am convinced the only reason this thread is open still is because the mods are either playing a big joke on everyone(like that Chill pvz thread back in the bw days) or they are leaving it open as a trap so they can mass ban a lot of people.
I main terran and play protoss on an alternate account. Protoss is defiantly easier bronze - plat because to beat protoss as terran (not including zerg as I have played very little ZvP) you have to do constant drops which is multitask heavy and be positioned just right. All in all protoss is OP in the earlier leagues but is pretty balanced dia -GM.
its a carry over from brood war basically. In reality terran is [if any race is] the easy race, given its clearly been OP since the start. toss/zerg have taken turns at being useless.
On August 11 2011 06:38 wei2coolman wrote: Press "w" "s" click, repeat, "s" click", until warpgates are on cooldown.
This is why.
and this is harder than pressing "5" "s" "rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr" ?
Roaches don't pop out instantly, nor do they blink around.
You do realize that warpgate has cooldown? and that you can reproduce 50 roches at one, while you only can reproduce as many stalkers as you have gateways. I cant really understand how you would say that protoss is so easy when GSL is dominated by zerg and terran. This is just batshit crasy.
Protoss is considered the easiest race for lower levels because of how you can turtle off two or three base and get the perfect colossus/ht/gateway composition and just win based off of that. In the pro level of things all races are balanced in difficulty. Well not completely but they're more balanced in difficulty.
On August 11 2011 06:40 Techno wrote: Storm vs EMP/Stim/Kiting. I'd take storm any day.
So I think Terran is tougher to micro, but it is close: Storm and EMP largely cancel Same with Feedback/Snipe Stim is as easy as guardian shield. Terran has kiting, but Toss has blink micro which is just as hard. Also, Forcefields are by the far the hardest and most important part since they must be both fast and accurate. Phoenix are tough to Micro. Siege Tanks are harder than Colossus. Again, Terran is probably the toughest to micro well, but it is close. And being able to Queue up units mid battle and just wait on mules is infinitely better than missing a round of Warpins, so Toss is frequently forced to Macro as they are trying to perform micro that is almost as hard.
On August 11 2011 05:05 Nible wrote: Why is Protoss often considered to be the easiest race to play? As most Protosses have (or rather as every player), I have often after a win been the subject of the losing opponents rage and balance whining. Some of these "discussions" have been about how easy Protoss is to play. After one of these discussions I actually searched for it and it turned out most people on the many SC2 forums in fact do think that it is the easiest race! I cannot, for my life, understand what is so much harder with the other races. I mean, tech switching and almost never having to look at your base as Zerg? Teching as Terran with all of their turtle units and structures? In my opinion, every race has its harder and its aspects of play. To me, the Protoss has always been the micro race as it has a lot of spell casters, that's probably the main reason I play it. Microing blink stalkers, phoenixes and so on. Having to tech quite fast to deal with opponents tier 1 units and microing while macroing is not what I call “easy”. Of the harder things a Zerg has to deal with we have the decision making, whether to make drones or units and such, and Terran has... ummm... umm....... drop… play? no that EZ... banshees? nah, that too… (jk, jk, I bet there are hard things for a Terran as well).
Can anyone please try to get me to understand what is so easy about Protoss? Or is this discussion as pointless and should be as ignored as IdrA’s balance complaints? Am I right in what I’m saying?
With risk of being totally ignored in any SC2 related discussion if someone remembers me, I feel obligated to tell you that I play in Silver league. I’m not a total retard just because of it, though. This whole thread post is probably a little bit biased as I have mostly played Protoss, not as much Zerg and little-to-none Terran. Please correct me if you think you know better. I’m hardly the most knowing player. ^^ These are just my thoughts.
Hope I haven't messed the whole texted up so you can't understand it . I'm so eager to post it, lol.
EDIT: Actually, I think I missed out on the part where I was supposed to say what was easy with the Protoss race. This was not supposed to be "WHINE WHINE PEOPLE DON'T THINK MY RACE IS HARD!"
As many of you say, yes the macro might be easier as a protoss with the less diversity in tech and unit compositions. But as I said, the micro is harder, depending on playstyle, of course.
And about Zerg having to be at one more base at all times I think can be fairly discussed. I don't think that it is necessary to be all of the time, but yes, it might be necessary to expand at least a little bit before your opponent. And I'd also like to add from my slightly biased perspective that expanding as zerg isn't quite as risky as with the other races. A zerg can almost instantly after the base is up increase their production. A protoss on 3 bases within 10 mins practically get raped by a zerg on 3 bases at 10 mins. Just saw it on WhiteRa's stream. It's not until later that a protoss or terran get use of their expansion.
And just to make a point concerning the lack of multitasking requirements and map control, I think I can fairly effectively at least in Silver league take map control with phoenixes and which as a harrass unit requires a bit of multi tasking if you're going to macro at the same time, same as with blink stalker micro. As I stated in my original post.
This thread didn't quite turn out as I wanted. :/
At the beginning level, almost everything concerning skill is due to mechanical skill. True strategy and mind games only start to really affect the game at higher levels of play, and Protoss is the easiest race to play mechanically, and you'd be very hardpressed to argue otherwise. Macro is significantly harder as both Zerg and Terran, and Terran have a lot of micro to do to make their army effective (both positional micro and otherwise). Zerg's difficulty comes from not only their macro being more difficult than Protoss, but the basics of Zerg strategy are also much more difficult to grasp - Larvae management, expansion timings, and map control aren't easy to pick up for beginners, and these are much more necessary to grasp at an earlier level than compared to T or P.
And no, micro really isn't significantly harder as Protoss. It's about the same as Zerg (Zerg requires a whole lot of flanking and mass army controlling skills, Protoss requires fine unit control), and Terran is significantly harder (simple Tank placement and Siege/Unsiege timings are very difficult to master and will make or break your armies effectiveness, not to mention bio control against Banelings/Storms/Forcefields/Etc, as well as Hellion control and Dropship control).
All that said, Protoss can be argued to be the hardest race to play at the highest level, since so much of their game can rely on the control of so few units/spells and their main strength comes from strategies and spell use. Both of these ideas were held to be pretty true in BW. SC2 is turning out to be quite a bit like BW in this respect.
In BW, you could be comfortable saying that (even if these are arguable points)
All 3 are equally hard at a top level, toss is easier at lower levels because you're much less susceptible to all-ins and can create a "death ball" that doesn't get hard countered by anything. They also have really versatile units/buildings in warp gates, stalkers, colossus, and cannons as well as good map vision via observers.
Terran micro is MUCH harder and Zerg macro (injects, knowing when to make drones, knowing what unit to make, knowing when to expand, etc.) is much harder. At least that's how I feel.
I play random and I honestly find Protoss to be the easiest to play at a "decent" level.
On August 11 2011 06:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Saying it's "easy" is incredibly ambiguous, as has been shown by the past dozen pages.
I'm Protoss.
Is it easy for me to macro? Yes, and that's probably why beginners will have a relatively *easy* time playing Protoss- because having decent macro (a.k.a. keeping your money low) is the most essential thing in the game. Warpgate tech makes macro-ing with Protoss easier than macro-ing as Terran or Zerg, in my opinion.
Is Protoss a notorious 1a race in SC2? Definitely not; we need to micro quite a bit. Even if we're just on gateway tech, we often need perfect forcefields, really good blink micro, storms, or feedbacks to succeed on defense or offense. So while the macro aspect may be *easy*, it's not *easy* to micro them. (I'm not saying any other race is a 1a race; I'm merely defending Protoss.)
Is it easy to win outright as Protoss against other races? Not necessarily. The most fearsome early game attack- the 4gate- isn't nearly as intimidating as it was months ago. And late game engagements come down to micro. There's a reason why Protoss is getting its ass kicked in Korea and on an international level. Maybe it's easy for beginners, when no one is very competitive and all you need to do is macro hard... but when you need all the finer points, the race is certainly not on par with the others (let alone easiest overall). And the data defends that.
I hate that logic. Protoss are losing lots so it must be balance rather than toss players needing to figure out new strategies/counters to whatever is making them lose, namely the marine/tank/banshee all-in that is skewing the numbers against toss quite a bit.
On August 11 2011 06:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Saying it's "easy" is incredibly ambiguous, as has been shown by the past dozen pages.
I'm Protoss.
Is it easy for me to macro? Yes, and that's probably why beginners will have a relatively *easy* time playing Protoss- because having decent macro (a.k.a. keeping your money low) is the most essential thing in the game. Warpgate tech makes macro-ing with Protoss easier than macro-ing as Terran or Zerg, in my opinion.
Is Protoss a notorious 1a race in SC2? Definitely not; we need to micro quite a bit. Even if we're just on gateway tech, we often need perfect forcefields, really good blink micro, storms, or feedbacks to succeed on defense or offense. So while the macro aspect may be *easy*, it's not *easy* to micro them. (I'm not saying any other race is a 1a race; I'm merely defending Protoss.)
Is it easy to win outright as Protoss against other races? Not necessarily. The most fearsome early game attack- the 4gate- isn't nearly as intimidating as it was months ago. And late game engagements come down to micro. There's a reason why Protoss is getting its ass kicked in Korea and on an international level. Maybe it's easy for beginners, when no one is very competitive and all you need to do is macro hard... but when you need all the finer points, the race is certainly not on par with the others (let alone easiest overall). And the data defends that.
I have to agree, in my opinin protoss is the race working by the formula "easy to learn, hard to master" The quite simple warpgate mechanic, you have cooldowns, all basic units on 1 hotkey and the easy deployment, make protoss a bit more beginner friendly. I myself find it quite easy to play protoss at a decent level when i am offracing and it feels a lot more relaxed, on the other hand when you reach high masters or even higher the tides can turn really quickly.
On August 11 2011 06:38 wei2coolman wrote: Press "w" "s" click, repeat, "s" click", until warpgates are on cooldown.
This is why.
and this is harder than pressing "5" "s" "rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr" ?
Roaches don't pop out instantly, nor do they blink around.
They also don't cost as much as Stalkers and can be upgraded to move faster than Stalkers.
I think people need to understand that Toss does have easier macro than the rest, and can replenish an army almost as quickly as Zerg can (once you get like 20+ gates) but micro is more important for toss than it is for Terran or Zerg.
No FFs vs Zerg? Have fun getting surrounded. Blink micro? Going 5 gate blink Stalkers makes blink micro very important.
vs Terran? FFs are also important(until Ghosts come out) and make sure you can protect+position Colossi/HTs from Vikings/Ghosts respectively.
On August 11 2011 06:38 wei2coolman wrote: Press "w" "s" click, repeat, "s" click", until warpgates are on cooldown.
This is why.
and this is harder than pressing "5" "s" "rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr" ?
Roaches don't pop out instantly, nor do they blink around.
You do realize that warpgate has cooldown? and that you can reproduce 50 roches at one, while you only can reproduce as many stalkers as you have gateways. I cant really understand how you would say that protoss is so easy when GSL is dominated by zerg and terran. This is just batshit crasy.
At high levels, I feel like protoss is the hardest race to play, by virtue of it being "the easiest race to play." The reason it's so "easy" is because relative to terran and zerg, protoss is very limited in what they can do. They have no real harassing unit, whereas zerg has the muta and terran has the medivac. They are the only race where the ability to drop feels "forced". Terran almost always has medivacs and zerg has overlords, and let's face it, when is the last time you bought a warp prism?
Protoss also can't afford to engage unless they can most likely win the engagement. And they're forced (basically) to get colossus because gateway units can't straight up out-DPS anything. They depend the heaviest on gas on average. So their only real option is mass up a death ball and amove.
Having never played protoss aside from cannon rushing when I actually do, the theory behind Protoss being easier, among people not complaining about balance, is that Protoss probably has the easiest macro, which means they can spend more time microing. Zerg has to handle injects, drone saturation and waypoints more than the other races and Terran has addons and a lot of simcity. In general, after the initial simcity Protoss can shove gateways in a corner and they don't need many robos or stargates.
Also it could be that a Protoss army often lends itself to being grouped up, so only a few hotkeys are needed, while Zerg needs to split up and flank, and terrans often drop, although personally I think Protoss coukd, and probably should, be doing those things too.
Microing a tank marine push while dropping and macroing off 3+ bases is hard as fuck to do, but I don't see any reason for complaint about other races being easier. You shouldn't have picked the most mechanically demanding race if you didn't want to be mechanically demanded.
Without having read too many other peoples' reasons, here are my top 10 reasons for thinking protoss is ezpz npnp.
(I'm zerg)
#1 First and foremost: I've never played Protoss. #2 You can win the game even in the midgame with just gateway units #3 You can win the game without making a single offensive unit. #4 You can totally ignore your macro mechanic and still win until diamond league #5 You can win the game with a single DT issued a single command. #6 You can win the game with two Colossus (+gateways) issued a single command. #7 You can win the game with four void rays issued a single command. #8 You can have godawful map awareness and stop a drop, nydus, or runby with a single warp-in after its already in your base. #9 Your tech is generally easier to control and less fragile than my tech. #10 Your tech is stronger than my tech.
THERE! Happy?
I get my ass kicked by Protoss all the time. A lot of the time they're legitimate losses where the protoss player was just straight up better than me. The rest of the time? Cannons, DT's, void rays, blink stalkers, or any one of a number of strong, viable, seemingly easy-to-use tech options that will just beat the shit out of me if I don't use the strong scouting sense I'm supposed to have but you don't have to give a shit about to determine by some magic that you're going for this one of your array of viable tech paths.
In case it wasn't evident, this is very much tongue-in-cheek. I don't seriously think Protoss is significantly easier than the other races; It's just significantly more gay.
I've played all 3 races and protoss is by far the easiest to play. Does this mean it is the easiest to win with? No. It simply means as a protoss player there is just a LOT less to do. You can spend your time just kinda waiting around and then if you ever start to float minerals units cost so much for protoss that it's pretty simple to spend them all (But the units are also stronger). Also, leaving your units alone for 1 second doesn't result in instant death, as they do for terran and zerg. Lastly, protoss just doesn't really need to utilize the harass as much for winning and I also think this is why they lose more often than the other races.
When I played terran I would have to have incredible multi tasking and micro when I'd play. I would almost ALWAYS make a multi pronged attack and so I'd have to constantly be switching between watching my units dropped and making sure they stayed stimmed as well as watching my main army to avoid things like banes and collosus and such.
Now I play zerg and I must say it is by far the hardest race to play and especially master. First off I feel it has the most potential but that's simply because the risk/reward aspect of it. Yes I can sit at my base and drone like a madman but if I'm not actively scouting or if I miss a pylon you hid somewhere on the map where you're warping in units, I lose. On the other hand, if I over produce units, you can just get ahead economically and then I'm behind. Going into the macro/micro part of the game it is actually harder than the other races. Injecting larva on time when you're just sitting at your base isn't too bad, but when you're scouting and harassing and in battle and you have to remember to go back and inject larva, it can be brutal. Also things like creep spread are very important but just added things to remember. You also have to watch all of your units constantly because they die in seconds (you try leaving your mutalisks alone for 2 seconds to go inject and then come back to a group of stimmed marines underneath them). There are just so many different things to do as a zerg (from baneling mines to nydus worms) that it really makes the race extremely open but extremely difficult because you have to remember so many basic things first.
When I played protoss I honestly could play high and not have it change anything (I don't smoke but my friends who do smoke and play protoss have zero drop off in their gameplay). Apm is already kind of a joke in SC2 but protoss really gets it easy. I was able to simply focus on my build orders because as a protoss there isn't much else to do. My units would simply stay clumped together and I would just macro up a big deathball and push. Every now and then I'd do a little multi pronged attack with DTs into 3rd and 4th bases when I was attacking but even that didn't require much micro as I would just send them in then focus on my main army. Protoss players complain about all the spells they have to cast but really all of those are pretty simply sad to say. Microing blink stalkers is the easiest thing in the world. I can micro blink stalkers with about 50 apm. The only difficult part about casting force fields is making sure your sentries are in range so they will cast automatically. And storms are as easy as casting EMPs. For the most part as a protoss I would just A move into an army, let my chargelots charge, blink my stalkers if needed, and set up some ff's. From there I just move around my collo and it really isn't much harder than that.
All said, I think zerg is the hardest race to play, followed by terran, followed by protoss. This has nothing to do with the balance of the game but simply how each race currently plays the game. I think protoss players have yet to really utilize everything and that's why they struggle to win more often but also why they have it easier playing the game. In SC1 dropships used to be used ALL the time from protoss players, nowadays I never see a warp prism. maybe start doing some HT drops around the map and you can add to the micro you have to do as well as increase your win percentage.
On August 11 2011 06:40 Techno wrote: Storm vs EMP/Stim/Kiting. I'd take storm any day.
So I think Terran is tougher to micro, but it is close: Storm and EMP largely cancel Same with Feedback/Snipe Stim is as easy as guardian shield. Terran has kiting, but Toss has blink micro which is just as hard. Also, Forcefields are by the far the hardest and most important part since they must be both fast and accurate. Phoenix are tough to Micro. Siege Tanks are harder than Colossus. Again, Terran is probably the toughest to micro well, but it is close. And being able to Queue up units mid battle and just wait on mules is infinitely better than missing a round of Warpins, so Toss is frequently forced to Macro as they are trying to perform micro that is almost as hard.
The equivalent of missing warp ins isn't queing up units, it's not making them at all. How can you compare the two?
Obviously, the high the skill level, the harder the races is to play. However, when it comes to the lower levels (<Masters), Protoss is much more efficient bunch up in a ball, and units kept together, which is all the lower levels do.
On August 11 2011 06:40 Techno wrote: Storm vs EMP/Stim/Kiting. I'd take storm any day.
So I think Terran is tougher to micro, but it is close: Storm and EMP largely cancel Same with Feedback/Snipe Stim is as easy as guardian shield. Terran has kiting, but Toss has blink micro which is just as hard. Also, Forcefields are by the far the hardest and most important part since they must be both fast and accurate. Phoenix are tough to Micro. Siege Tanks are harder than Colossus. Again, Terran is probably the toughest to micro well, but it is close. And being able to Queue up units mid battle and just wait on mules is infinitely better than missing a round of Warpins, so Toss is frequently forced to Macro as they are trying to perform micro that is almost as hard.
Yea but having all the zealots warp in instantly is 100000000x better than having units trickle out of a baracks. You may win the 200/200 battle with EMP on everything, stim + kiting of multiple unit groups, but do you have enough hp/medivacs to beat 30 more supply of chargelots? MAYBE EVEN A GAWDDAMN STORM?
On August 11 2011 06:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Saying it's "easy" is incredibly ambiguous, as has been shown by the past dozen pages.
I'm Protoss.
Is it easy for me to macro? Yes, and that's probably why beginners will have a relatively *easy* time playing Protoss- because having decent macro (a.k.a. keeping your money low) is the most essential thing in the game. Warpgate tech makes macro-ing with Protoss easier than macro-ing as Terran or Zerg, in my opinion.
Is Protoss a notorious 1a race in SC2? Definitely not; we need to micro quite a bit. Even if we're just on gateway tech, we often need perfect forcefields, really good blink micro, storms, or feedbacks to succeed on defense or offense. So while the macro aspect may be *easy*, it's not *easy* to micro them. (I'm not saying any other race is a 1a race; I'm merely defending Protoss.)
Is it easy to win outright as Protoss against other races? Not necessarily. The most fearsome early game attack- the 4gate- isn't nearly as intimidating as it was months ago. And late game engagements come down to micro. There's a reason why Protoss is getting its ass kicked in Korea and on an international level. Maybe it's easy for beginners, when no one is very competitive and all you need to do is macro hard... but when you need all the finer points, the race is certainly not on par with the others (let alone easiest overall). And the data defends that.
I hate that logic. Protoss are losing lots so it must be balance rather than toss players needing to figure out new strategies/counters to whatever is making them lose, namely the marine/tank/banshee all-in that is skewing the numbers against toss quite a bit.
The numbers have been skewed long before this newly modified 1-1-1 build that's making this season of the GSL completely Terran dominated. In fact, there's been a recently-bumped TL thread that shows the graphical data as recent as July that shows that Terran has pretty much always been ahead, and Protoss mostly at the bottom (occasionally switching with Zerg). I agree that we need to give the players time to figure things out, but this isn't a new thing. It's a general, consistent trend.
I'm simply saying that "easiest" certainly doesn't mean "best" (especially at the pro-level), as is proven by the data.
On August 11 2011 05:29 Chargelot wrote: "Protoss is easy" - Everyone but Protoss "Protoss has the lowest win rate" - Statistical data
I wonder who is right?
the only suggestion i could say, Those ppl that think Protoss is just A move, go play it for 2-3month and come here and post your thought.
i`m sure u will come here like
omg Terran all in are so op. omg Terran loses 30scv and can win the game. omg Terran just need Marauders and Vikings. omg Terran drops are annoying. omg Terran 1 EMP won the game. omg Terran is cheesy but uncheesable omg Terran 2Blue flame hellion killed 30probes. omg Terran Mule are imba. omg Terran 1-1-1 so hard O_O
omg Zerg just need infestors. omg Zerg just need 1million lings + 10infestors. omg Zerg just need roaches to win. (no FF) omg Zerg Roach ling is so hard to stop. omg Zerg Bling drop kill my entire probe line.
I wouldn't agree that Protoss is inherently the easiest race to play, but I would suggest that it's probably the most powerful race when played poorly. Obviously at high skill levels, each race's strengths and weaknesses are a wash to a very high degree. But you can get more out of Toss than any other race, especially with low APM, worse decision-making, and weaker mechanics.
The main advantage of Toss is strong, cost-effective units. You get more bang for your buck. So if neither player is taking a considerable econ/macro lead and micro ability is even, the Protoss player is going to win most fights. It's up to Zerg and Terran to have more stuff and the ability to replace it sooner to hang with Protoss.
On August 11 2011 06:40 Techno wrote: Storm vs EMP/Stim/Kiting. I'd take storm any day.
So I think Terran is tougher to micro, but it is close: Storm and EMP largely cancel Same with Feedback/Snipe Stim is as easy as guardian shield. Terran has kiting, but Toss has blink micro which is just as hard. Also, Forcefields are by the far the hardest and most important part since they must be both fast and accurate. Phoenix are tough to Micro. Siege Tanks are harder than Colossus. Again, Terran is probably the toughest to micro well, but it is close. And being able to Queue up units mid battle and just wait on mules is infinitely better than missing a round of Warpins, so Toss is frequently forced to Macro as they are trying to perform micro that is almost as hard.
The equivalent of missing warp ins isn't queing up units, it's not making them at all. How can you compare the two?
He's saying that it's easier for Terran to queue up units and mule after the fight than for Protoss to stop microing to go warp in. OTOH as mentioned Toss gets the units very quickly while Terran gets a cool conga line so 6/half a dozen.
You're mostly seeing complaints about protoss because... You play protoss, and you're unlikely to see much complaining against your terran or zerg play.
This said, a few advantages of playing protoss: - Robust units with shields that regenerate means tiny micro mistakes are more forgiving. - The variety of units at the gateway level means spending resources effectively is simpler. Too much gas? Make sentries! Full on minerals? Make zealots! - The ability to warp units in right where you need them is incredibly useful. - The colossus is a powerful and easy-to-use unit, especially at lower levels of skill where complaints against protoss seem to be more frequent.
Now, a few disadvantages: - Between forcefields, blinkstalkers, immortal target-fires, keeping zealots and archons in front, phoenix micro, keeping VRs and colossi alive, drop defense... Protoss micro at high levels of play is difficult. - Macro has its disadvantages as well: Unlike Z or T, protosses have to look away from their army to build their gateway units - and there's no queuing, not even at the last second. Add that to the micro you need, and the APM requirements to play protoss at a high level are not lower than other races'.
On August 11 2011 07:04 Yaotzin wrote: He's saying that it's easier for Terran to queue up units and mule after the fight than for Protoss to stop microing to go warp in. OTOH as mentioned Toss gets the units very quickly while Terran gets a cool conga line so 6/half a dozen.
god, that the reason...why protoss units have longer build times than both their Zerg or Terran pendant, even with Warpgates...
the only reason Protoss is felt as the "strongest" race is because they have strong spells that can be abusive if you blindly engage.
But this makes the opponent bad and not protoss strong for not calculating the abilities of the enemy in.
It the same for Protoss if we blindly charge into like what M&M&M? before we got Colossus or Storm... ridiculously one sided...
there is a reason why Protoss isn't really doing well these days, that because finally the other races learnt from their mistakes, and use the fucking units they didn't use for months...(Ghost. infestor that is if you don't know)
Protoss is not the easiest race to macro, they have the hardest time expanding on "fair" maps where the is no choke / high ground covering the natural. Protoss if at all may be the easiest race in spending money.
On August 11 2011 07:05 BlueyD wrote: - Macro has its disadvantages as well: Unlike Z or T, protosses have to look away from their army to build their gateway units - and there's no queuing, not even at the last second.
Well its simply because protoss needs really less macro and multitask than terran and zerg... I played zerg and toss at master lvl and I had like 40 APM less when I was playing toss. Mechanically it is obvious that protoss is easier.
On August 11 2011 05:29 Chargelot wrote: "Protoss is easy" - Everyone but Protoss "Protoss has the lowest win rate" - Statistical data
I wonder who is right?
the only suggestion i could say, Those ppl that think Protoss is just A move, go play it for 2-3month and come here and post your thought.
i`m sure u will come here like
omg Terran all in are so op. omg Terran loses 30scv and can win the game. omg Terran just need Marauders and Vikings. omg Terran drops are annoying. omg Terran 1 EMP won the game. omg Terran is cheesy but uncheesable omg Terran 2Blue flame hellion killed 30probes. omg Terran Mule are imba. omg Terran 1-1-1 so hard O_O
omg Zerg just need infestors. omg Zerg just need 1million lings + 10infestors. omg Zerg just need roaches to win. (no FF) omg Zerg Roach ling is so hard to stop. omg Zerg Bling drop kill my entire probe line.
This is off topic. We are not talking about balance but why protoss would be easier to play.
On August 11 2011 07:11 mXWeird wrote: Well its simply because protoss needs really less macro and multitask than terran and zerg... I played zerg and toss at master lvl and I had like 40 APM less when I was playing toss. Mechanically it is obvious that protoss is easier.
Easier at master level which is a joke, yes. Name a remotely good Protoss at a high level with poor mechanics? Compared with say Goody...
Protoss macro is the far by the easiest macro in the game and u dont need to mico anything with protoss other than the ocasional storm. That is why protoss is ez and terrans macro is far by the hardest out of all 3 races. ive played all 3 races with about 100 wins with each and i can tell u the easiest race is protoss. The only hard thing about protoss is that you have to defend agaisnt harass and thats about it.
chronoboost warpgates are easy mechanics to use. always a chance for agression, good tech, and very solid. you don't have to think as much about transitions and stuff cuz it's natural.
On August 11 2011 07:11 mXWeird wrote: Well its simply because protoss needs really less macro and multitask than terran and zerg... I played zerg and toss at master lvl and I had like 40 APM less when I was playing toss. Mechanically it is obvious that protoss is easier.
Easier at master level which is a joke, yes. Name a remotely good Protoss at a high level with poor mechanics? Compared with say Goody...
On August 11 2011 07:11 mXWeird wrote: Well its simply because protoss needs really less macro and multitask than terran and zerg... I played zerg and toss at master lvl and I had like 40 APM less when I was playing toss. Mechanically it is obvious that protoss is easier.
Easier at master level which is a joke, yes. Name a remotely good Protoss at a high level with poor mechanics?
Where did I say that high level toss have poor mechanics? They have good mechanics! But still they need less to be effective than high lvl terran or zerg.
High diamond random player here, lemme break down my opinion
Low Levels (Bronze-Silver):
Hardest race is Zerg, without question. Nobody can properly larva inject at this point, because larva inject is so good that if they could they wouldn't be in this level lol What's this, air units? How come nothing I have hits air? What's a spore crawler? I can make more than one queen lol? Totally did not scout this 14 minute 8 voidray "timing attack". Why are merinz so strong? When I attack tank, why everything die? Imbuuuuuu
Easiest race is Protoss. Easy and very forgiving macro mechanic, warp in, buff units that will generally win most small engagements, most accessible and easy to use tier 3, Colossi murder everything at this point.
Mid-Low Levels (Gold-Plat)
Hardest race is Terran. At this point most people know what counters what and how to scout sh*t semi descently. Problem is, stuff is REALLY good against terran when terran can't micro properly. Banelings and infestors will dominate ZvT because i dunno h2split and leapfrog??? Also this is around the time where zerg players start getting scary when they're not harrassed, and terrans at this level just won't have the necessary clean and efficient harrass and timings that they need to really punish the other player. Same problem goes for splash damage in PvT.
Easiest race is probably still protoss, but I think at this point they tie with Zerg. Protoss can still win a lot of games with mainly abusive things, but when talking macro game (which should be starting around this level), Zergs will benefit from being left alone a lot of the time, and also from the effective A-move nature of their swarm at this point. They just can't remax like they should.
Mid Levels (Diamond-Low Masters)
Hardest race is Protoss. Colossi are no longer free win units that counter ground, your abusive play can now be stopped by smart players, and you are stuck rushing to tier 3 units to counter sh*t that costs 25 gas. Mass roach and Mass bio will give you nightmares, especially now that players can actually multitask and realize that they don't have to sit in their base until one big battle to end the game. Protoss has to be familiar with the most amount of timings and has to constantly look for ways to get even the smallest advantage, or they're f*cked. Least effective a-move units at this points honestly.
Easiest is Zerg. Zerg definitly knows how to inject and balance drones/units at this point, and begin to abuse their macro mechanics here. They can now read and scout their opponent properly and hold most all-ins, and if left alone, at this point it starts to be free wins for zerg. They can use and abuse 300/200 pushes and know the values of hive tech. Infestors. nuff said.
Mid-High levels (High Masters - Low GM) and High levels (Foreign Pro)
Can't comment on this span as well as the others, but it would seem that it's quite even, with zerg players least knowing how to effectively use their race (you constantly see foreign pros making huge mistakes korean pros would never make), and protoss players knowing how to most effectively use theirs.
Highest Level (Korea Pro) May the best player win, your race is as good as you are, no excuses play like a champion. Slight advantage to terran for most reflecting a player's skill and having the most options available (nothing to do with being easier, it just lets you be a more dynamic player, which helps a ton once you keep playing the same players). Only reason why terrans dominate is because yes, they actually do have the best players, and it's not hard to tell that lol
On August 11 2011 05:47 figq wrote: This means there's a lot less to produce and a lot less (in numbers) to control. More units generally means more tasks, both in macro and micro.
MMM: Hit T and go (1a), then slice and target fire, ctrl key macro
SSZI: Hit G, then FF the right places (takes practice and experience), place/pull back Immortals properly, hotkey micro with blink if you got it, find a good spot in the battle to go back to base to warp in more zeals, then pull back ranged units when zeals are dead
More caster units means more micro
Yes; not at beginner level though, as I first clarified to be the only level where this has any meaning.
At beginner level, it's more important that protoss makes 10 zealots, and for the same supply terran makes 20 marines, and zerg makes 40 zerglings (off of 20 larvae). That's double the number of timings to be hit well in order to produce efficiently. Then in battle, that's double (4x for lings) the number of units to take care of - watch when they are low on HP, pull back, try to position so they actually hit something and don't just move.
Beginners also surprisingly often mess up their medivacs, whereas the protoss shields are automatic and generally regenerate quite quickly after a battle.
On August 11 2011 06:40 Techno wrote: Storm vs EMP/Stim/Kiting. I'd take storm any day.
So I think Terran is tougher to micro, but it is close: Storm and EMP largely cancel Same with Feedback/Snipe Stim is as easy as guardian shield. Terran has kiting, but Toss has blink micro which is just as hard. Also, Forcefields are by the far the hardest and most important part since they must be both fast and accurate. Phoenix are tough to Micro. Siege Tanks are harder than Colossus. Again, Terran is probably the toughest to micro well, but it is close. And being able to Queue up units mid battle and just wait on mules is infinitely better than missing a round of Warpins, so Toss is frequently forced to Macro as they are trying to perform micro that is almost as hard.
The equivalent of missing warp ins isn't queing up units, it's not making them at all. How can you compare the two?
He's saying that it's easier for Terran to queue up units and mule after the fight than for Protoss to stop microing to go warp in. OTOH as mentioned Toss gets the units very quickly while Terran gets a cool conga line so 6/half a dozen.
then dont switch your gates to warpgates and see how it is going for you
On August 11 2011 07:11 mXWeird wrote: Well its simply because protoss needs really less macro and multitask than terran and zerg... I played zerg and toss at master lvl and I had like 40 APM less when I was playing toss. Mechanically it is obvious that protoss is easier.
Easier at master level which is a joke, yes. Name a remotely good Protoss at a high level with poor mechanics?
Where did I say that high level toss have poor mechanics? They have good mechanics! But still they need less to be effective than high lvl terran or zerg.
But the only remotely good/successful Protosses - MC, HuK, Puzzle etc all have outstanding mechanics. It's their best trait in all cases. This strongly indicates that mechanics are - at least at this point in SC2s life - the most important skill for high level Protoss.
CrunCher.
I can't believe I'm defending the guy, but Cruncher has shown micro that Goody couldn't accomplish if you gave him all day to do it.
On August 11 2011 07:11 mXWeird wrote: Well its simply because protoss needs really less macro and multitask than terran and zerg... I played zerg and toss at master lvl and I had like 40 APM less when I was playing toss. Mechanically it is obvious that protoss is easier.
Easier at master level which is a joke, yes. Name a remotely good Protoss at a high level with poor mechanics?
Where did I say that high level toss have poor mechanics? They have good mechanics! But still they need less to be effective than high lvl terran or zerg.
It's equally difficult to stare at a pylon outside of a battle to warp off 16 gates and chronoboost them, as it is to select 3-5 queens and inject. Probably an even amount of key clicks too. Protoss needs just as much mechanics as any top terran or zerg.
On August 11 2011 07:17 ffadicted wrote: High diamond random player here, lemme break it down + Show Spoiler +
Low Levels (Bronze-Silver):
Hardest race is Zerg, without question. Nobody can properly larva inject at this point, because larva inject is so good that if they could they wouldn't be in this level lol What's this, air units? How come nothing I have hits air? What's a spore crawler? I can make more than one queen lol? Totally did not scout this 14 minute 8 voidray "timing attack". Why are merinz so strong? When I attack tank, why everything die? Imbuuuuuu
Easiest race is Protoss. Easy and very forgiving macro mechanic, warp in, buff units that will generally win most small engagements, most accessible and easy to use tier 3, Colossi murder everything at this point.
Mid-Low Levels (Gold-Plat)
Hardest race is Terran. At this point most people know what counters what and how to scout sh*t semi descently. Problem is, stuff is REALLY good against terran when terran can't micro properly. Banelings and infestors will dominate ZvT because i dunno h2split and leapfrog??? Also this is around the time where zerg players start getting scary when they're not harrassed, and terrans at this level just won't have the necessary clean and efficient harrass and timings that they need to really punish the other player. Same problem goes for splash damage in PvT.
Easiest race is probably still protoss, but I think at this point they tie with Zerg. Protoss can still win a lot of games with mainly abusive things, but when talking macro game (which should be starting around this level), Zergs will benefit from being left alone a lot of the time, and also from the effective A-move nature of their swarm at this point. They just can't remax like they should.
Mid Levels (Diamond-Low Masters)
Hardest race is Protoss. Colossi are no longer free win units that counter ground, your abusive play can now be stopped by smart players, and you are stuck rushing to tier 3 units to counter sh*t that costs 25 gas. Mass roach and Mass bio will give you nightmares, especially now that players can actually multitask and realize that they don't have to sit in their base until one big battle to end the game. Protoss has to be familiar with the most amount of timings and has to constantly look for ways to get even the smallest advantage, or they're f*cked. Least effective a-move units at this points honestly.
Easiest is Zerg. Zerg definitly knows how to inject and balance drones/units at this point, and begin to abuse their macro mechanics here. They can now read and scout their opponent properly and hold most all-ins, and if left alone, at this point it starts to be free wins for zerg. They can use and abuse 300/200 pushes and know the values of hive tech. Infestors. nuff said.
Mid-High levels (High Masters - Low GM) and High levels (Foreign Pro)
Can't comment on this span as well as the others, but it would seem that it's quite even, with zerg players least knowing how to effectively use their race (you constantly see foreign pros making huge mistakes korean pros would never make), and protoss players knowing how to most effectively use theirs.
Highest Level (Korea Pro) May the best player win, your race is as good as you are, no excuses play like a champion. Slight advantage to terran for most reflecting a player's skill and having the most options available (nothing to do with being easier, it just lets you be a more dynamic player, which helps a ton once you keep playing the same players). Only reason why terrans dominate is because yes, they actually do have the best players, and it's not hard to tell that lol
I think that it's considered the easiest because it is the easiest mechanically, and the easiest from bronze to master. But it's probably why it's the hardest to win with at top level, because it's hard to differenciate from other protoss. But the micro (high level) /positionning is far from easy, it's just that you can get away with bad micro until mid or even high master I presume
On August 11 2011 07:25 Poopi wrote: I think that it's considered the easiest because it is the easiest mechanically, and the easiest from bronze to master. But it's probably why it's the hardest to win with at top level, because it's hard to differenciate from other protoss. But the micro (high level) /positionning is far from easy, it's just that you can get away with bad micro until mid or even high master I presume
Maybe you have to play them to see it easily, but I find differentiating good/bad Protoss play extremely easy. I can barely tell the difference between most Terrans, but then I never play them so that's not surprising.
It's the shocking lack of Protoss play that sucks, but it's easy to see when we do (Sage's GSTL allkill :fap
I think the different races are easy/hard in different aspects.
A trivial example where it's harder for the protoss would be the fact that protoss needs to look away from their army to warp in units whereas zerg and terran dont. Zerg probably has the least forgiving macro mechanic (both MULE and CB are forgiving). Terran probably has the hardest time reacting to drops and such.
I think in the end, all races are equally hard and the metagame is the thing making protoss "easy". As I have seen in the thread, people mention that the current metagame favors protoss getting 200/200 rather than being active with units on the map etc, because thats just how the current metagame works.
Also warpgate mechanic is a bit forgiving, but if you can warp in anywhere someone drops, you probably havent macroed ideally anyway.
In the end, I dont really know if protoss is the easiest race or not.
Though one thing is for sure, protoss is the most cheesable race.
On August 11 2011 05:07 jonathan1 wrote: in my opinion, it's because they don't have the ability to move out of their base with small amounts of units to harass very well. we can see much more multi-tasking from terran and zerg players while protoss tend to sit in their base more and just focus on macro.
ya think thats the general mid set of most Toss but huk is a very VERY agresive toss that you just do not see on a regualry basis
On August 11 2011 07:17 ffadicted wrote: High diamond random player here, lemme break down my opinion
Low Levels (Bronze-Silver):
Hardest race is Zerg, without question. Nobody can properly larva inject at this point, because larva inject is so good that if they could they wouldn't be in this level lol What's this, air units? How come nothing I have hits air? What's a spore crawler? I can make more than one queen lol? Totally did not scout this 14 minute 8 voidray "timing attack". Why are merinz so strong? When I attack tank, why everything die? Imbuuuuuu
Easiest race is Protoss. Easy and very forgiving macro mechanic, warp in, buff units that will generally win most small engagements, most accessible and easy to use tier 3, Colossi murder everything at this point.
Mid-Low Levels (Gold-Plat)
Hardest race is Terran. At this point most people know what counters what and how to scout sh*t semi descently. Problem is, stuff is REALLY good against terran when terran can't micro properly. Banelings and infestors will dominate ZvT because i dunno h2split and leapfrog??? Also this is around the time where zerg players start getting scary when they're not harrassed, and terrans at this level just won't have the necessary clean and efficient harrass and timings that they need to really punish the other player. Same problem goes for splash damage in PvT.
Easiest race is probably still protoss, but I think at this point they tie with Zerg. Protoss can still win a lot of games with mainly abusive things, but when talking macro game (which should be starting around this level), Zergs will benefit from being left alone a lot of the time, and also from the effective A-move nature of their swarm at this point. They just can't remax like they should.
Mid Levels (Diamond-Low Masters)
Hardest race is Protoss. Colossi are no longer free win units that counter ground, your abusive play can now be stopped by smart players, and you are stuck rushing to tier 3 units to counter sh*t that costs 25 gas. Mass roach and Mass bio will give you nightmares, especially now that players can actually multitask and realize that they don't have to sit in their base until one big battle to end the game. Protoss has to be familiar with the most amount of timings and has to constantly look for ways to get even the smallest advantage, or they're f*cked. Least effective a-move units at this points honestly.
Easiest is Zerg. Zerg definitly knows how to inject and balance drones/units at this point, and begin to abuse their macro mechanics here. They can now read and scout their opponent properly and hold most all-ins, and if left alone, at this point it starts to be free wins for zerg. They can use and abuse 300/200 pushes and know the values of hive tech. Infestors. nuff said.
Mid-High levels (High Masters - Low GM) and High levels (Foreign Pro)
Can't comment on this span as well as the others, but it would seem that it's quite even, with zerg players least knowing how to effectively use their race (you constantly see foreign pros making huge mistakes korean pros would never make), and protoss players knowing how to most effectively use theirs.
Highest Level (Korea Pro) May the best player win, your race is as good as you are, no excuses play like a champion. Slight advantage to terran for most reflecting a player's skill and having the most options available (nothing to do with being easier, it just lets you be a more dynamic player, which helps a ton once you keep playing the same players). Only reason why terrans dominate is because yes, they actually do have the best players, and it's not hard to tell that lol
On August 11 2011 07:17 ffadicted wrote: High diamond random player here, lemme break down my opinion + Show Spoiler +
Low Levels (Bronze-Silver):
Hardest race is Zerg, without question. Nobody can properly larva inject at this point, because larva inject is so good that if they could they wouldn't be in this level lol What's this, air units? How come nothing I have hits air? What's a spore crawler? I can make more than one queen lol? Totally did not scout this 14 minute 8 voidray "timing attack". Why are merinz so strong? When I attack tank, why everything die? Imbuuuuuu
Easiest race is Protoss. Easy and very forgiving macro mechanic, warp in, buff units that will generally win most small engagements, most accessible and easy to use tier 3, Colossi murder everything at this point.
Mid-Low Levels (Gold-Plat)
Hardest race is Terran. At this point most people know what counters what and how to scout sh*t semi descently. Problem is, stuff is REALLY good against terran when terran can't micro properly. Banelings and infestors will dominate ZvT because i dunno h2split and leapfrog??? Also this is around the time where zerg players start getting scary when they're not harrassed, and terrans at this level just won't have the necessary clean and efficient harrass and timings that they need to really punish the other player. Same problem goes for splash damage in PvT.
Easiest race is probably still protoss, but I think at this point they tie with Zerg. Protoss can still win a lot of games with mainly abusive things, but when talking macro game (which should be starting around this level), Zergs will benefit from being left alone a lot of the time, and also from the effective A-move nature of their swarm at this point. They just can't remax like they should.
Mid Levels (Diamond-Low Masters)
Hardest race is Protoss. Colossi are no longer free win units that counter ground, your abusive play can now be stopped by smart players, and you are stuck rushing to tier 3 units to counter sh*t that costs 25 gas. Mass roach and Mass bio will give you nightmares, especially now that players can actually multitask and realize that they don't have to sit in their base until one big battle to end the game. Protoss has to be familiar with the most amount of timings and has to constantly look for ways to get even the smallest advantage, or they're f*cked. Least effective a-move units at this points honestly.
Easiest is Zerg. Zerg definitly knows how to inject and balance drones/units at this point, and begin to abuse their macro mechanics here. They can now read and scout their opponent properly and hold most all-ins, and if left alone, at this point it starts to be free wins for zerg. They can use and abuse 300/200 pushes and know the values of hive tech. Infestors. nuff said.
Mid-High levels (High Masters - Low GM) and High levels (Foreign Pro)
Can't comment on this span as well as the others, but it would seem that it's quite even, with zerg players least knowing how to effectively use their race (you constantly see foreign pros making huge mistakes korean pros would never make), and protoss players knowing how to most effectively use theirs.
Highest Level (Korea Pro) May the best player win, your race is as good as you are, no excuses play like a champion. Slight advantage to terran for most reflecting a player's skill and having the most options available (nothing to do with being easier, it just lets you be a more dynamic player, which helps a ton once you keep playing the same players). Only reason why terrans dominate is because yes, they actually do have the best players, and it's not hard to tell that lol
On August 11 2011 06:55 MrLlama wrote: Currently :Masters zerg
I've played all 3 races and protoss is by far the easiest to play. Does this mean it is the easiest to win with? No. It simply means as a protoss player there is just a LOT less to do. You can spend your time just kinda waiting around and then if you ever start to float minerals units cost so much for protoss that it's pretty simple to spend them all (But the units are also stronger). Also, leaving your units alone for 1 second doesn't result in instant death, as they do for terran and zerg. Lastly, protoss just doesn't really need to utilize the harass as much for winning and I also think this is why they lose more often than the other races.
When I played terran I would have to have incredible multi tasking and micro when I'd play. I would almost ALWAYS make a multi pronged attack and so I'd have to constantly be switching between watching my units dropped and making sure they stayed stimmed as well as watching my main army to avoid things like banes and collosus and such.
Now I play zerg and I must say it is by far the hardest race to play and especially master. First off I feel it has the most potential but that's simply because the risk/reward aspect of it. Yes I can sit at my base and drone like a madman but if I'm not actively scouting or if I miss a pylon you hid somewhere on the map where you're warping in units, I lose. On the other hand, if I over produce units, you can just get ahead economically and then I'm behind. Going into the macro/micro part of the game it is actually harder than the other races. Injecting larva on time when you're just sitting at your base isn't too bad, but when you're scouting and harassing and in battle and you have to remember to go back and inject larva, it can be brutal. Also things like creep spread are very important but just added things to remember. You also have to watch all of your units constantly because they die in seconds (you try leaving your mutalisks alone for 2 seconds to go inject and then come back to a group of stimmed marines underneath them). There are just so many different things to do as a zerg (from baneling mines to nydus worms) that it really makes the race extremely open but extremely difficult because you have to remember so many basic things first.
When I played protoss I honestly could play high and not have it change anything (I don't smoke but my friends who do smoke and play protoss have zero drop off in their gameplay). Apm is already kind of a joke in SC2 but protoss really gets it easy. I was able to simply focus on my build orders because as a protoss there isn't much else to do. My units would simply stay clumped together and I would just macro up a big deathball and push. Every now and then I'd do a little multi pronged attack with DTs into 3rd and 4th bases when I was attacking but even that didn't require much micro as I would just send them in then focus on my main army. Protoss players complain about all the spells they have to cast but really all of those are pretty simply sad to say. Microing blink stalkers is the easiest thing in the world. I can micro blink stalkers with about 50 apm. The only difficult part about casting force fields is making sure your sentries are in range so they will cast automatically. And storms are as easy as casting EMPs. For the most part as a protoss I would just A move into an army, let my chargelots charge, blink my stalkers if needed, and set up some ff's. From there I just move around my collo and it really isn't much harder than that.
All said, I think zerg is the hardest race to play, followed by terran, followed by protoss. This has nothing to do with the balance of the game but simply how each race currently plays the game. I think protoss players have yet to really utilize everything and that's why they struggle to win more often but also why they have it easier playing the game. In SC1 dropships used to be used ALL the time from protoss players, nowadays I never see a warp prism. maybe start doing some HT drops around the map and you can add to the micro you have to do as well as increase your win percentage.
I assume you didnt start with the zerg race.
Protoss does not need to respond to many things other then make more units/make a specific unit(observer). Terran has to compensate with their unit composition by swapping add ons and save scans to respond. Zerg needs to respond the most to specific things which is why a lot of players find it hard. Zerg has to make an evo and more queens vs stargate/banshee builds. They have to stop droning at a specific time/start making units at a specific time to stop a lot of timings. And you have to scout to be able to respond to the correct situations. This take a lot of practice and expirence but gets easier as you play more.
I started as zerg and since I know how to respond to everything I see I find it very easy(on par with protoss almost with the exception that you have to scout and have proper unit control to win. With protoss you don't really need either of those. You can just sit back and macro then attack your way to victory or defeat.
Playing the race itself terran is hardest imo. Maybe its because of mechanics with terran are bad a crap and i float a lot or I dont understand how to play it but terran has specific timings that have to use. If they don't take advantage of those timings because of their production mechanics they will fall behind. If you make 4 rax instead of OC for third base say, and start making units and not attack you will lose and be further behind as opponent has a faster third. Zerg doesnt have such timings, and nor does protoss. Warp gates are always usefull because of their instant warp ins and larva with being able to do a 60 ling attack and instantly drone up a third behind it.
Protoss just has much easier mechanics, very little need to scout because they have extremely safe and solid builds. And have very easy army control for its strength. If you make 1 ultra for 1 collosus, depending on how protoss micros their collosus you will either crush their army with 20 lost lings. Or protoss will suffer almost no damage and you lose everything. Ultras require supperior positioning and proper unit composition to crush a protoss deathball. Protoss does not require good positioning to do good with an army, they make their own position with FF. Its really just protoss has less to do.
But at the same time that makes protoss the weakest race at the highest possible level. If you could somehow make a perfect computer program to play out a game, protoss will always lose due to the lower skill cap. Terran and zerg will just perfectly respond to everything protoss does and will come out massivly ahead. But untill Nestea makes no mistakes and has perfect micro no one will be at that highest level of play.
A little insight on protoss macro... it is not like terran at all, similar to zerg in some senses, when they switch to mutas they usually save up 1k gas and anyone who doesnt understand that race is like "wow he is so noob"... its very much like that for protoss throughout the mid and lategame, you want to float a lot of minerals as toss and you want a lot of warpgates so you can instantly warpin for the eventual drop/harass play... consider this when you think its easy to macro as protoss but its very easy to lose a game with a wrong warpintime, all warpgates on cooldown and drop happens right after that happen or y ou dont have enough min/gas to full warp in and stop it.... its nto as easy and its not as noob as it appears.....
On August 11 2011 07:16 shawster wrote: got the most room for error
chronoboost warpgates are easy mechanics to use. always a chance for agression, good tech, and very solid. you don't have to think as much about transitions and stuff cuz it's natural.
lol chronoboost is easy but in term of macro i'd trade it with doubt reactor and MULE. And chance for aggression is only blink stalkers, tell me which else has the fast enough speed to be aggressive? while lings,mutas banelings roaches drop is so good and cheap, marines/marauders/hellions medic drops are so cost effective and with stim it's faster than any other units. Good tech, agree, surprise? not so much, toss HAVE TO use colossus or HTs in everygame. Solid yes, cheap, nah, too expensive and fragile that's why protoss balls have to stick together or get snipe.
Protoss is often considered the easiest (In my opinion) because it doesnt require a huge amount of micro. Especially most protoss in ladder play, or at least the ones I run into, just turtle until 200/200 and literally a-move. However; I'm not saying that protoss players are completely devoid of micro, you have to have good Forcefields, good blinks, good storms feedbacks and so on to be a successfull player.
Because as protoss it is beneficial for your units to clumped up in one big 1 hotkey ball and attack move with it. You dont need to spread out your units because protoss have the easiest mechanic in the game of training units (one i think that is completely stupid).
Wow read through some of the thread and no one has given a really good answer why Protoss macro is deemed to be so easy. People claiming it is not the most micro dependent race are clearly smoking something.
Macro: Warpgate: Front loads building time. Things still take the same time to build but you get to have the unit first and pay for the time later. It makes grouping units significantly easier for toss. How many games have you seen zergs not handle their rally points and sacrfice free units or just no ball up faster? Toss can most easily ensure their forces remain in a ball/ can't quite a easily be killed by people camping their production.
Everytime you attack as toss when you macro you switch screens. Terran you hit a hotkey and bam 5aaaaadd. What? Terrans have to build out of starports too? Well we have to hotkey robos and stargates too. Nothing special here. The difference is that we are forced to macro well with our warpgates. Terrans can fool themselves by queuing (See goody homestory cup factories). Zerg is a more complex answer. Ideal zerg play would be rememberin to switch screens and inject every time. Alright, I would say remembering that sort of inject is really important but made up by the fact that zerg has the unique ability to produce 50 units at a time. Chrono boost operates in a similar way to inject when it comes to this battle reinforcement. Actually chronoboost hasn't been mastered yet as you can tell by examining the nex energy in most games. This is primarily because even tho bliz designed build times around chrono you do not always have money to use it.
The big shortcoming imo is that you see very few Protoss plays that show a high level of multitask. I can't actually remember a progame where a toss split up his main army and did anything with it. Multiprong DT harass against zergs so that they dont kill the queens or they hit the right things or phoenix play (so tough) are the only exceptions. Macro requires more multitask than terran macro, but that's it.
Micro:
Toss gateway army loses a straight up fight 9/10 times. Your 125/50 stalker does crap against air (2 stalkers per banshee, got I hate even sized groups of mutas) and loses to 70/25 roaches and 100/25 marauders (Not even talking about scaling ups).Once you start throwing in (perfect) FFs, well placed storms (so they don't instantly run out of them or your zealots don't melt) , excellent blink control (so your expensive stalkers stay alive), Feed backs on spell casters, even voidray control, you begin to wonder what this lack of micro people are talking about.
Terran has stutterstep, kinda with emps (so many screw up but insta effect), smart tank positioning*, banshee/reaper control* (comparable with void/stalker control). Vikings require as much micro as collosi do bleh.
Actually name one top level toss that doesn't have impeccable micro? Even Socke who isn't thought of as a top line toss (more for his builds imo) has gorgeous battle micro.
Winrate % back up this story and we're only talking about mechanics.
Edit: any racial buffs will have to be carefully done. Remember the two weeks of moaning about how forcefield shouldnt exist after MC absolutely raped Julyzerg? IF you can display that high level micro, with the right buffs you can be disgustingly efficient if you survive long enough for the units to start competing.
Protoss is good in the fact that 1) Warpgates have no queues 2) Your units aren't supposed to instant die.
Now, here's why Protoss is actually hard to play:
After Gold, deathballs are not so good anymore. Typically because a proper player will realize that Terrans have the better mid-game deathballs.
In addition, Infestors are completely ridiculously strong, but players had been crying until they found out.
With that being said, Protoss is essentially the hardest race to play "well", and by well, I mean at the point where your macro is good enough. Protoss units are quite weak unless they're in balls, and they cannot handle harass well, nor can you go better with their macro ability.
No one has perfect macro, and hence, Zergs' focus on macro will always have more headroom. Meanwhile, you'll always compensate Protoss with a lot of "decision making" from forcefield placement, to deciding what to sacrifice.
So, I'll tell you this: Protoss is the hardest race to play because at the higher levels, you will get thrown into utilizing decision making for the lack of power that Protoss units have in small groups. You cannot drop, harass, and save your units to come back like Terran, nor can you drone back like crazy to recover like Zerg.
WIth that being said, Protoss is the hardest race to play, if you cannot play perfectly.
Can I get an instant warning for players that whine too much that think a balled Protoss is a good thing especially when faced with a line of siege tanks, or better yet ... 10 infestors? =/
Protoss is the easiest to keep money low, but it can be a bit misleading. Warpgate is arguably the easiest macro mechanic as you don't get punished as much for bad macro, you can chronoboost and get units fast. However, it is the only race that requires you to look away from your army if you want to make more units, unless you have a pylon really close to the army, which you usually won't in lategame situations. Zerg has larva inject, but they don't necessarily have to do it while fighting.
I also find that since Protoss units benefit the most from microing, it often cuts into macro. However, this stuff isn't as important in lower leagues, so yes, I would say protoss is the easiest to pick up. However, to be actually really good at the race I feel like you need really really good mechanics. Since it is the race with the most "spellcasters" (blink stalkers/phoenix included), I think there is still higher potential to be tapped into. Look at the way HuK and MC micros and positions their units in fights, and how they use blink stalkers to harass/delay a Terran army. It is really hard to pull off and losing focus for a couple seconds can be fatal, but when players master these subtle things I think Protoss is a force to be reckoned with.
It's considered the easiest because their army is so strong, and they don't need an advanced strategy since they can just turtle up all game long. Also macro'ing with protoss is much easier than terran at least - since you can just warp in your units, no queue lol
saying no queue for protoss warpgate is entirely false and id recommend playing toss and warping in a unit and trying to warp in another with the same gate instantly after, and plus taking in the actual few seconds it takes for the said warped in unit takes before usable and if anything a queue makes it easier to macro so you are just proving protoss warpgates are actually harder to macro since there is no queue~~~~~~~
I'm a high master zerg, and i started playing random and protoss was so easy that I could easily compete at that level even though i had never played them before, i just copied what i had seen. terran on the other hand is extremely hard and i can only play terran at the diamond level
It's an old myth from the BW days.For sc2 there are lot of opions, for example Nestea said some month ago, it is really hard to become good with protoss, but when you are good with them you are unbeatable...
On August 11 2011 07:48 Skelephile wrote: I'm a high master zerg, and i started playing random and protoss was so easy that I could easily compete at that level even though i had never played them before, i just copied what i had seen. terran on the other hand is extremely hard and i can only play terran at the diamond level
1a. Has the most well rounded unit (stalker) 1b. Has the most well rounded static defense 2. Units instantly where you need it 3. Usually only one building that you need a lot of (Gateway/Warpgates) 4. Cronoboost arguably less important than the other 2 macro mechanics at lower level 5. One worker can build n buildings instantly, easy to catch up if you were thrown off rythm
I guess. Generally there is less decision making required due to the allround units/buildings/static defenses than there is with Zerg and less mechanics required to keep up with the build cycles/add-ons/depot building there is with Terran. It's a big blow when you don't macro during a battle as terran and need to take X workers offline to build all sorts of buildings.
The biggest point though is the versatility of the stalker. I would also argue that the hard counters to the stuff the other races have is more detrimental.
Its subjective, the discussion is useless, you have one group saying one thing is easy while the others say NO our race s harder, and it goes on and on. I play terran and I get protoss all the time complaining to me about how terran is so OP and all you have to do is make MMM. Just ignore those people.
But i guess i could answer your question, they have the most noob friendly units. You could have no idea what your doing an make colossus because "ooh cool giant robot w/ lasers"
Hardest race is Protoss. Colossi are no longer free win units that counter ground, your abusive play can now be stopped by smart players, and you are stuck rushing to tier 3 units to counter sh*t that costs 25 gas. Mass roach and Mass bio will give you nightmares, especially now that players can actually multitask and realize that they don't have to sit in their base until one big battle to end the game. Protoss has to be familiar with the most amount of timings and has to constantly look for ways to get even the smallest advantage, or they're f*cked. Least effective a-move units at this points honestly.
Easiest is Zerg. Zerg definitly knows how to inject and balance drones/units at this point, and begin to abuse their macro mechanics here. They can now read and scout their opponent properly and hold most all-ins, and if left alone, at this point it starts to be free wins for zerg. They can use and abuse 300/200 pushes and know the values of hive tech. Infestors. nuff said.
This is where I am at and I am a diamond toss player who was formerly diamond Terran and diamond random. ffaddicted adequately expresses my feelings on playing toss and zerg. I don't understand the a-move stereotype surrounding toss; nor do I understand the sentiment that collosi are game-ending units. Both Z and T are so adept at taking out collosi that I often avoid making them or find myself MADLY microing to keep them alive.
All-in-all, from a player who tried random out for quite awhile, toss, for me, requires the most intensive micro to FF, deal with drops, keep units alive in the face of a stimming T or a swarming Z, cast fb on infestors, storm on kiting bioballs.
And map awareness...even with pylons all over the map to get vision, it is so hard to maintain it. I need my robo for other units. Snipe my obs and I will struggle.
On August 11 2011 07:40 Sabu113 wrote: Wow read through some of the thread and no one has given a really good answer why Protoss macro is deemed to be so easy. People claiming it is not the most micro dependent race are clearly smoking something.
Macro: Warpgate: Front loads building time. Things still take the same time to build but you get to have the unit first and pay for the time later. It makes grouping units significantly easier for toss. How many games have you seen zergs not handle their rally points and sacrfice free units or just no ball up faster? Toss can most easily ensure their forces remain in a ball/ can't quite a easily be killed by people camping their production.
Everytime you attack as toss when you macro you switch screens. Terran you hit a hotkey and bam 5aaaaadd. What? Terrans have to build out of starports too? Well we have to hotkey robos and stargates too. Nothing special here. The difference is that we are forced to macro well with our warpgates. Terrans can fool themselves by queuing (See goody homestory cup factories). Zerg is a more complex answer. Ideal zerg play would be rememberin to switch screens and inject every time. Alright, I would say remembering that sort of inject is really important but made up by the fact that zerg has the unique ability to produce 50 units at a time. Chrono boost operates in a similar way to inject when it comes to this battle reinforcement. Actually chronoboost hasn't been mastered yet as you can tell by examining the nex energy in most games. This is primarily because even tho bliz designed build times around chrono you do not always have money to use it.
The big shortcoming imo is that you see very few Protoss plays that show a high level of multitask. I can't actually remember a progame where a toss split up his main army and did anything with it. Multiprong DT harass against zergs so that they dont kill the queens or they hit the right things or phoenix play (so tough) are the only exceptions. Macro requires more multitask than terran macro, but that's it.
Micro:
Toss gateway army loses a straight up fight 9/10 times. Your 125/50 stalker does crap against air (2 stalkers per banshee, got I hate even sized groups of mutas) and loses to 70/25 roaches and 100/25 marauders (Not even talking about scaling ups).Once you start throwing in (perfect) FFs, well placed storms (so they don't instantly run out of them or your zealots don't melt) , excellent blink control (so your expensive stalkers stay alive), Feed backs on spell casters, even voidray control, you begin to wonder what this lack of micro people are talking about.
Terran has stutterstep, kinda with emps (so many screw up but insta effect), smart tank positioning*, banshee/reaper control* (comparable with void/stalker control). Vikings require as much micro as collosi do bleh.
Actually name one top level toss that doesn't have impeccable micro? Even Socke who isn't thought of as a top line toss (more for his builds imo) has gorgeous battle micro.
Winrate % back up this story and we're only talking about mechanics.
Edit: any racial buffs will have to be carefully done. Remember the two weeks of moaning about how forcefield shouldnt exist after MC absolutely raped Julyzerg? IF you can display that high level micro, with the right buffs you can be disgustingly efficient if you survive long enough for the units to start competing.
Watch Huk, he splits into 3 and sometimes 4 hotkeys and uses them extremely effectively. Edit: Other than that I think you made some good points. I wasn't tryint to troll
Well i play random and Protoss requires the least micro as forcefields are extremely easy to. Terran and Zerg are extremely multi-task intensive and Protoss only multi-tasks with phoenixes.
Protoss is also very easy to macro with because of chrono boost and the warp gate mechanic, where as larva injects and keeping all your buildings producing as terran is a lot harder
On August 11 2011 07:41 Termit wrote: Press W for macro. And you don't even need any multitasking at all because of warpgates.
Press 3 for macro, aaaaaadd Press 4 for macro, srrrrrrrrrr Press W for macro, shift S clickclickclick
I fail to see your point...
The point is, you only have to press W and then the hotkey for your unit. No multitasking and queing (Terran) and no overdroning and feeling for when you're gonna save up larvae for units or go for drones (Zerg).
IMO the bottomline is with toss you can learn 1 cheesy strat and perfect it and probably get to masters:
\ Where are these threads? I know of no cheesy strats that Toss can abuse to Masters. I have seen the 6/7 pool threads. I have seen the Marine/SCV all in thread.
I have seen no threads describing master's level protoss cheese that works against T/Z? The only way to cheese at master's level is against other toss where you can either Korean 4 Gate or Cannon rush.
4gate vs. P and 6gate vs. T/Z?
EDIT: Most people are going to say purely 4gate against all races but 6gate is stronger and not that much more difficult to execute.
4 gate wont win you a single game against a good zerg/terran. nor will a 6gate, both races have figured out a long time ago how to hold that.
+2wep 7 blinkstalkers is a much better "cheese" if we are talking cheeses, but thats mostly against zerg..
... so there reason why people still 4gate v z and p is? Maybe cuz they're crazy
on second thought your the crazy one (if you want evidence i just saw HuK beat some T w/ a 4gate)
On August 11 2011 07:57 lazydino wrote: Chronoboost is actually the hardest macro mechanic. Every korean pro gosu protoss will still have an abundance of energy in the lategame.
i agree with this. mules and scans and injects you just use when you have the energy to, like an inject finishes, you inject again, its simple. one mule runs out, you call down another mule. easy. But with chrono, especially in the late game, a chrono will run out, and the upgrade might finish, then you have to chrono something else
On August 11 2011 07:17 ffadicted wrote: High diamond random player here, lemme break down my opinion
Low Levels (Bronze-Silver):
Hardest race is Zerg, without question. Nobody can properly larva inject at this point, because larva inject is so good that if they could they wouldn't be in this level lol What's this, air units? How come nothing I have hits air? What's a spore crawler? I can make more than one queen lol? Totally did not scout this 14 minute 8 voidray "timing attack". Why are merinz so strong? When I attack tank, why everything die? Imbuuuuuu
Easiest race is Protoss. Easy and very forgiving macro mechanic, warp in, buff units that will generally win most small engagements, most accessible and easy to use tier 3, Colossi murder everything at this point.
Mid-Low Levels (Gold-Plat)
Hardest race is Terran. At this point most people know what counters what and how to scout sh*t semi descently. Problem is, stuff is REALLY good against terran when terran can't micro properly. Banelings and infestors will dominate ZvT because i dunno h2split and leapfrog??? Also this is around the time where zerg players start getting scary when they're not harrassed, and terrans at this level just won't have the necessary clean and efficient harrass and timings that they need to really punish the other player. Same problem goes for splash damage in PvT.
Easiest race is probably still protoss, but I think at this point they tie with Zerg. Protoss can still win a lot of games with mainly abusive things, but when talking macro game (which should be starting around this level), Zergs will benefit from being left alone a lot of the time, and also from the effective A-move nature of their swarm at this point. They just can't remax like they should.
Mid Levels (Diamond-Low Masters)
Hardest race is Protoss. Colossi are no longer free win units that counter ground, your abusive play can now be stopped by smart players, and you are stuck rushing to tier 3 units to counter sh*t that costs 25 gas. Mass roach and Mass bio will give you nightmares, especially now that players can actually multitask and realize that they don't have to sit in their base until one big battle to end the game. Protoss has to be familiar with the most amount of timings and has to constantly look for ways to get even the smallest advantage, or they're f*cked. Least effective a-move units at this points honestly.
Easiest is Zerg. Zerg definitly knows how to inject and balance drones/units at this point, and begin to abuse their macro mechanics here. They can now read and scout their opponent properly and hold most all-ins, and if left alone, at this point it starts to be free wins for zerg. They can use and abuse 300/200 pushes and know the values of hive tech. Infestors. nuff said.
Mid-High levels (High Masters - Low GM) and High levels (Foreign Pro)
Can't comment on this span as well as the others, but it would seem that it's quite even, with zerg players least knowing how to effectively use their race (you constantly see foreign pros making huge mistakes korean pros would never make), and protoss players knowing how to most effectively use theirs.
Highest Level (Korea Pro) May the best player win, your race is as good as you are, no excuses play like a champion. Slight advantage to terran for most reflecting a player's skill and having the most options available (nothing to do with being easier, it just lets you be a more dynamic player, which helps a ton once you keep playing the same players). Only reason why terrans dominate is because yes, they actually do have the best players, and it's not hard to tell that lol
On August 11 2011 07:17 ffadicted wrote: High diamond random player here, lemme break down my opinion
Low Levels (Bronze-Silver):
Hardest race is Zerg, without question. Nobody can properly larva inject at this point, because larva inject is so good that if they could they wouldn't be in this level lol What's this, air units? How come nothing I have hits air? What's a spore crawler? I can make more than one queen lol? Totally did not scout this 14 minute 8 voidray "timing attack". Why are merinz so strong? When I attack tank, why everything die? Imbuuuuuu
Easiest race is Protoss. Easy and very forgiving macro mechanic, warp in, buff units that will generally win most small engagements, most accessible and easy to use tier 3, Colossi murder everything at this point.
Mid-Low Levels (Gold-Plat)
Hardest race is Terran. At this point most people know what counters what and how to scout sh*t semi descently. Problem is, stuff is REALLY good against terran when terran can't micro properly. Banelings and infestors will dominate ZvT because i dunno h2split and leapfrog??? Also this is around the time where zerg players start getting scary when they're not harrassed, and terrans at this level just won't have the necessary clean and efficient harrass and timings that they need to really punish the other player. Same problem goes for splash damage in PvT.
Easiest race is probably still protoss, but I think at this point they tie with Zerg. Protoss can still win a lot of games with mainly abusive things, but when talking macro game (which should be starting around this level), Zergs will benefit from being left alone a lot of the time, and also from the effective A-move nature of their swarm at this point. They just can't remax like they should.
Mid Levels (Diamond-Low Masters)
Hardest race is Protoss. Colossi are no longer free win units that counter ground, your abusive play can now be stopped by smart players, and you are stuck rushing to tier 3 units to counter sh*t that costs 25 gas. Mass roach and Mass bio will give you nightmares, especially now that players can actually multitask and realize that they don't have to sit in their base until one big battle to end the game. Protoss has to be familiar with the most amount of timings and has to constantly look for ways to get even the smallest advantage, or they're f*cked. Least effective a-move units at this points honestly.
Easiest is Zerg. Zerg definitly knows how to inject and balance drones/units at this point, and begin to abuse their macro mechanics here. They can now read and scout their opponent properly and hold most all-ins, and if left alone, at this point it starts to be free wins for zerg. They can use and abuse 300/200 pushes and know the values of hive tech. Infestors. nuff said.
Mid-High levels (High Masters - Low GM) and High levels (Foreign Pro)
Can't comment on this span as well as the others, but it would seem that it's quite even, with zerg players least knowing how to effectively use their race (you constantly see foreign pros making huge mistakes korean pros would never make), and protoss players knowing how to most effectively use theirs.
Highest Level (Korea Pro) May the best player win, your race is as good as you are, no excuses play like a champion. Slight advantage to terran for most reflecting a player's skill and having the most options available (nothing to do with being easier, it just lets you be a more dynamic player, which helps a ton once you keep playing the same players). Only reason why terrans dominate is because yes, they actually do have the best players, and it's not hard to tell that lol
I play random at a masters level and protoss is not the easiest race to play by all means. Personally I don't think any of the races are harder to play overall than any other.
The hardest matchup i've experienced is TvZ, which is so much more demanding for the terran player if the zerg survives the initial timings. Before 12 minutes it's easier for the terran but as soon as you cross that timeing without dealing enough damage terran becomes such a burden to play against zerg.
I have a friend whos in high diamond and the only build he uses is 4gate. I can beat him every game because 4gates are easy to beat unless i play super stupid and greedy/dont scout it (and i know its all he does). He got 4th place in a cup last week, beating a masters zerg and terran by 4gating 3 games in a row vs each, and finally lost to satini offracing as zerg (unless he switched, i havent seen him around in forever). That is why protoss is considered the easiest race.
Whilst are races can execute builds that requires multitasking, most of the standard protoss play, and even the complex/technical protoss strategies do not require that good of mechanics, due to the nature of warpgates, and chronoboost, protoss can let their macro slip without consequences, and easily deal with the single cooldown gateway production mechanics, whereas terran has to worry about a ton of different timings and their micro is much more difficult to execute, blink stalker micro is actually super easy compared to say, microing stimmed marines in creep vs speedbane ling infestor.
Before you go around trying to say that protoss isn't easier than the other races, you should play the other races, pheonix micro doesn't even require a-move, you can do it all with right click and the minimap, you have freaking map hacks with observers to scout for you, no need to even bother microing lings/marines around the map/guessing with scans to try to find the enemy army, you just always know where it is. The simplest of things, defending drops, can be done simply by having warpgates, no units need to be in position, no extra preparation had to happen. Personally I think that the basic production and micro mechanics of the protoss units are too powerful for how easy they are to use, if they could make the power of the protoss units more based off of the skill of the player using them the game would be a lot more balanced.
@ OP: Just go random for one or two weeks and you can compare. Until then, I wouldn't listen to the majority of people because very few do actually play all races at comparable levels.
On August 11 2011 05:24 JustinHit wrote: Yes protoss can do drops like warp prism zealot/dt drops however it isnt common. The reason for this is the Main army is so strong it can likely just win the game for you. So you dont need that High APM of looking at multiple places at once.
No, the reason for that is that drop mechanics are completely cost innefective for Protoss. You get a warp prism and load up 4 zealots/stalkers? What's that gonna do to a mineral line beforecyou get picked off? And if you warp-in more units with the WP for harassment you're basically saying you're gonna throw away units because you can't transport them back, and Protoss units aren't cheap at all. And that's all assuming the WP even makes it to the enemy's base and doesn't get killed first for being a slow-ass unit and made of paper. The main army is so strong, like someone said earlier, because it needs to be so strong for fear of not being strong at all. The Protoss units complement each other in a deathball and each one of them alone doesn't do shit, and since they're all slow compared to other races' units, they really need to stick together to not get caught in a bad positioning and get murdered. That's why you only see deathballs, Protoss cannot afford to split its army because it doesn't have the ability to gain terrain like Terran or the mobility of Zerg. And that's why you'll never see from Protoss stuff like 50 siege tanks from Terran or 200 banelings from Zerg.
So why does the Starcraft II starter let you play Terran only?? If Protoss is so EZ why not have you play Protoss
Also in Starcraft 1 you played Terran first, Protoss was the last race to play
Personally I think what Race you choose is dependant on how comfortable you feel with it and whether it fits your play style. I have been playing since the beginning of Stacraft and Protoss is still my preferred race and not because it is easy. I just like the units and the character they have. Also it is the only race with nice shiny blue crystals
Why was there no Protoss players in the finals of MLG??? Seems most finals these days involve Terran! You'd think that if Protoss is so EZ win the Protoss players should have made the finals right?
Bottom line: SC2 no matter what race you play involves a lot of multitasking!
On August 11 2011 07:41 Termit wrote: Press W for macro. And you don't even need any multitasking at all because of warpgates.
Press 3 for macro, aaaaaadd Press 4 for macro, srrrrrrrrrr Press W for macro, shift S clickclickclick
I fail to see your point...
The point is, you only have to press W and then the hotkey for your unit. No multitasking and queing (Terran) and no overdroning and feeling for when you're gonna save up larvae for units or go for drones (Zerg).
On the other hand, being able to queue/not having to leave screen is extremely nice when microing.
I don't want to miss warp-gate timings, but that means I've got to leave my army for 2-3 seconds while warping in. And most games you will have a robo/stargate producing, so you have to "multitask" that as well. Scrolling hotkeys are nicer than having to switch position.
All I can say is that I switched from Z to P (high diamond) and P is much easier for me personally. It took me only a few weeks to get to the point where I was actually playing better with P than I ever have Z (which I was playing since beta). Yes ffadicted makes some good points but just because you can't a-move anymore for a free win doesn't mean the unit control ever actually gets harder on P than Z. It will always be easier to put down good forcefields than avoid getting trapped by them in much the same way that casting psi storms is easier than dodging them.
Yes it is true that Zergs get harder when they can actually use their powerful macro mechanics but you can use all that "free apm" that you aren't using to spread creep/inject/set up new bases to harass/feign aggression to throw most zergs at diamond off their game.
If anything protoss has the hardest macro, not only you have to look alway from the battle, but warpgate works like inject in the way that if you remenber to warp/inject 3-4s earlier you can't queue, you have to wait. and if you forget like 3-4s after the cooldawn the time is lost forever, if you have 8 gateways and it took you 4s to warp in, you lost a zealot.
It's not easy at the high levels, it's easy at the lower levels because you can spam more warpgates than you can use and use them to make up for not hitting proper warp in timings, and they'll be with your army. But it's also the same for drones. At 1000 minerals? Luckily when your larva pop you can just invest it all at once. It's also powerful in a ball. Top level it's as hard as anything else. If you are macroing properly and get dropped and your army is out of position, whoops, not like you can reset your cooldowns. But when you face off against people of other races who don't a-move into your a-move, large army micro is fast and intense. Also chronoboost doesn't matter in the lower levels since it'll still be done, just slower, but getting something nearby be it probes or an upgrade every 25 energy per nexus exactly is harder than dropping a mule every 50 energy on a mineral patch. Plus the early game is difficult, so few units and all of them are precious, yet weak in such low numbers.
I am a diamond protoss player who has recently switched to zerg (only gold-plat for zerg) and i find the macro mechanics much much more forgiving for zerg.
Lose 10 drones? no problem get them back with your next 2 larva injects then start pumping units like nothing has happened. And if larva is a problem because of that get another hatch.
Plus its so easy to just press 4s d,z,r, h W/e it is. The thing with protoss is you actually have to go back to your base to warp in units, where as when i play zerg i can be attacking and still watching my units while i do it. I dunno zerg suits me alot better and i think in no time it will be above protoss on my level.
Protoss lategame army involves the least amount of micro by far. I'd say Terran requires the most. I don't know how people possibly think that Protoss involves the most micro. I'd say it involves the least, and FF's aren't even remotely hard to do well imo from the experience I've had playing them I almost always have had near PERFECT FF's. Watching GSL also I see nigh perfect FF's, they almost never fuck them up. I'm not saying Protoss is imba by any means, but for ease of play...
On August 11 2011 08:15 cheesemaster wrote: I am a diamond protoss player who has recently switched to zerg (only gold-plat for zerg) and i find the macro mechanics much much more forgiving for zerg.
Lose 10 drones? no problem get them back with your next 2 larva injects then start pumping units like nothing has happened. And if larva is a problem because of that get another hatch.
Plus its so easy to just press 4s d,z,r, h W/e it is. The thing with protoss is you actually have to go back to your base to warp in units, where as when i play zerg i can be attacking and still watching my units while i do it. I dunno zerg suits me alot better and i think in no time it will be above protoss on my level.
Despite me finding chroning probes ridiculously easy (teehee), the actual macro mechanic is inject, which is the least forgiving of the three. It's not debatable. Losing ten drones and remaking them easier than toss or terran is not related to the macro mechanic ease of use.
Allowing room for more apm does not mean a race is harder to play. I usually hover around 130-140 apm when i use terran or zerg but i only have about 100-120 as protoss because the is just less stuff that you can get away with
Protoss units are so expensive that sometimes its just not worth risking them to do small harass.
APM is not indicative of how hard a race is to play. Most of the game is not mechanically hard once you get good at a race. The hard part is decision making.
protoss takes most thinking imo. No composition is good against everything (MMM), so you have to really spend your resources and think about your tech choices more carefully. Zerg thinks they have alot skill because of constant macro (larva injects, lots of droning, creep spread) but their micro is BY FAR the easiest.
Because with the other races you have spawn larva and mules which need to be used at regular times to keep up to pace with each other. Whereas with chrono boost you can let the energy get up to 100 and you can still win which is pretty ****.
It's pretty simple in my perspective: If you're Zerg you have very few abusive wins to fall back on (2 rax bunker rush all in? 4 gate? Charge rush?) which means Zerg players in the mid-range leagues (high platinum to low masters) have to just be better than a lot of their opponents to win. As Terran you have to really dominate your opponent and constantly have a threatening army; if you don't, your opponent will just come right in and ruin your day. Protoss can sit around until THEY want with next-to-zero fear of game-ending harass before then.
That doesn't mean that Protoss is easier! It simply means that when a Protoss losses, it's almost always not their fault (again, in the mid-range leagues.) It's their opponent's for being better than them. When a Protoss player wins, it means the other player screwed up, and that pisses people off.
On August 11 2011 08:10 TazmanNZL wrote: So why does the Starcraft II starter let you play Terran only?? If Protoss is so EZ why not have you play Protoss
Also in Starcraft 1 you played Terran first, Protoss was the last race to play
Personally I think what Race you choose is dependant on how comfortable you feel with it and whether it fits your play style. I have been playing since the beginning of Stacraft and Protoss is still my preferred race and not because it is easy. I just like the units and the character they have. Also it is the only race with nice shiny blue crystals
Why was there no Protoss players in the finals of MLG??? Seems most finals these days involve Terran! You'd think that if Protoss is so EZ win the Protoss players should have made the finals right?
Bottom line: SC2 no matter what race you play involves a lot of multitasking!
Starcraft 2 Starter lets you play Terran most likely because of the fact that Wings of Liberty is the name of the game, with Terran being the focal point of the entire storyline. If you ever watched the first previews, they chose Terran for the first race because the overall idea that its an "easier campaign" since terrans can just be sent on multiple missions and thrown around (and look how well that turned out: A crappy campaign).
Of course in the end, being comfortable with a race is whats going to make you excel at it, because it will make you want to play better. Also, MLG was all korean terrans, so its expected to see Terrans at the top if all the korean invitationals are terran.
Think before you post.
Protoss is probably the easiest race because of its mechanics. On the forefront, hotkeys are already prepared for protoss players with the warp-gate mechanic, and phoenix fire on the move, just requiring right clicks. Resource flooding is also a lot more tolerated for protoss on lower levels because of warp gate mechanics allowing fast resource drain with instant reinforcement time. Reinforcement pathing doesn't need to be catered to, since proxy pylons will allow instant reinforcement times. All their units can be selected into one major hotkey, since colossus don't need to enter siege mode, and don't have unit collision so formation control isn't necessary. Their scout is an invisible observer, and they can end multiple games with just dark-templar harass. Two major instant hit aoe: Colossus + High Templar. Chrono boost to make up for mistakes in forge ugprades.
Of course, many of these are for balance as well so i'm not complaining. I'm merely stating why its much simpler for protoss to control their army and base in lower leagues; But most poeple who complain about protoss being an easy race are just complaining for their loss.
But in the end, most of protoss tech pathing forces specific responses from other races. There aren't many units that force protoss to respond in a specific pattern as much as say zerg or terran, who if they dont respond to DTs, Collo rush, Void ray Rush, or 4 gate, they will most likely lose.
On August 11 2011 07:41 Termit wrote: Press W for macro. And you don't even need any multitasking at all because of warpgates.
Press 3 for macro, aaaaaadd Press 4 for macro, srrrrrrrrrr Press W for macro, shift S clickclickclick
I fail to see your point...
The point is, you only have to press W and then the hotkey for your unit. No multitasking and queing (Terran) and no overdroning and feeling for when you're gonna save up larvae for units or go for drones (Zerg).
On the other hand, being able to queue/not having to leave screen is extremely nice when microing.
I don't want to miss warp-gate timings, but that means I've got to leave my army for 2-3 seconds while warping in. And most games you will have a robo/stargate producing, so you have to "multitask" that as well. Scrolling hotkeys are nicer than having to switch position.
Yes I recently started playing Terran more and it's really nice to be able to macro while pushing and micro-ing with your army at the same time. Every time you look back in your base there is half a new army ready again.
To those out there saying protoss should drop more, you need not look further than what happens to protoss when a single mm drop comes down and the army is out of position. How many protoss units does it take to kill off a drop cost effectively?
Protoss as a race does not reward offensive multitasking at all. Our units don't actually function well outside of a ball. It rewards defensive multitasking, but why is that? Zerg has the ability to split off 16 lings and run into the 3rd while dancing outside the protoss natural, because they know that their army is faster and can run away. The lings can chase down workers so even with instant reaction time, they still lose workers. The same goes for a MM drop. On the other hand, 4 zealots go into a mineral line. With the same reaction time, you lose zero workers.
The notion that protoss is easy comes from people who don't understand why protoss has to play this style.
Whenever people tell my protoss is easy to play, I just have them try play protoss against my terran, or my zerg. Hilarity ensues when I beat them with half my usual apm doing the most abusive strats.
Protoss is the hardest race to master, bar none. Look at GSL results if you want to see how hard the protosses are having it.
Protoss is unarguably the easiest race to play low masters and below. Sit on 3 base, max out, and go. Every other race has to constantly harass and scout to keep the toss in check. T and Z are also, generally, reactive to toss.
On August 11 2011 08:25 Allscorpion wrote: Because with the other races you have spawn larva and mules which need to be used at regular times to keep up to pace with each other. Whereas with chrono boost you can let the energy get up to 100 and you can still win which is pretty ****.
Because you can't drop multiple mules at once or make macro hatches, right? At the higher levels using your chrono all the time is important as well. If you aren't using your chrono, you will be behind on econ significantly because it is the way to match MULES and at least limp behind the larva inject mechanic. If you aren't chronoing your upgrades you will be behind because terran generally gets their engineering bay faster than you would get your forge, and many of their units scale better with upgrades (at least compared to stalkers). If you aren't chronoing your colossi you might have one less when the terran push hits you and you lose. If you don't chrono charge you might get attacked at 80% instead of it being done and holding off the MMM push, opposed to your zealots getting kited to death.
Again, this whining comes from diamond and below players where those players aren't even using their MULEs properly, or their larva injects properly, and are not making units at the right time, or following a build order properly, but they feel that everything they do is "harder" and they are just better than their opponent and lost to some reason besides them being bad. Most macro zergs like IdrA and Ret hover around 150-200 apm, it's not like it's that apm intensive to larva inject and build units when they pop.
I would say that it's a sheer matter of mechanics. At low level of mechanics, Protoss's macro is the easiest (most expensive units). At high level of mechanics however, it becomes the hardest. I would consider myself a good mechanical protoss player (180~230 APM protoss and I use 4 unit control groups): I can for example macro between stutter steps as terran (which is not so easy to do, try it), but I can only check my warpgate timings while stutter stepping my stalkers. You have to actually look away from your army and warp very fast, re-hotkey everything and go back to the battle and you're always a bit afraid to do that.
The reason why Protoss is considered the easiest is that most players (so most posters in this thread I would assume) until very high masters have actually very poor mechanics and most of them have less than 100 APM. For that kind of mechanical skills, Protoss has probably the easiest time making a decent army. "Lololol, I'm a master zerg and I have 80 APM, Protoss is the easiest of all." At this level, yeah, sure, it's true, Protoss macro is the easiest for slow players, is what I'm trying to say. I have a friend who play random in team games, at about 50-60 APM, and I can tell you that his macro is way better (read: less worse) with Protoss, that's just a fact.
I recently switched from Protoss to Zerg because P was getting too uninteresting to play, and I can tell you that having good macro and mechanics is much less important as protoss. If you miss chronoboosts, you're fine. If you miss larva injects, you're fucked.
I have to say P is the easiest race, sure you still have to understand the little things but the macro is very easy even on 6 bases where as terran you need tons of apm to macro on a ton of bases and to keep control of your army.
Because it's just simpler, and requires less APM? not qqing, but I've played all 3 races, and I can say by Protoss is significantly easier, mechanics and APM wise.
I quoted these messages because they are typical of slow players calling other players slow. No good mechanical players have trouble macroing with their race, be it zerg, terran or protoss because SC2 has not been designed to be very hard mechanically. No one with a minimum of skill finds their races "uninteresting" because there is just so much to to in SC2... Even when I play zerg, I don't miss a single inject if there is no "tough urgency situation" going on, where my mind is too busy and my hands do not follow. You can believe those people if you have like 70 APM, don't bother otherwise, they are not ultra fast gosus. So yeah, when you're slow, Protoss is good, and Terran and Zerg are bad at macroing? Is that it? Do we actually care? Just get faster and move your hands on the keyboard, dammit, it's not that hard. (:D)
Now, watch pro play, like HuK, Mana, or any korean protoss like MC, San or Puzzle. Can you say that they're doing nothing and are just slow fucks abusing the easiest race? Now look at those so called "smart pro terrans" like Sjow and Goody, who average something like 100 APM. Both of them are very good. Can you find Protoss players who are as successful with the same speed? I mean, the only protoss players with that kind of hand speed that come to my mind are NA protosses like Axslav, Incontrol, Minigun and Cruncher, but they are hardly what you would consider top protosses. I'm rarely amazed at a player's macro in pro games, but man, MC has so much stuff when he plays and manages to reinforce in the middle of a fight, and protoss players know that's a hard thing to do.
Now, time for the disclaimer, mechanics are not all that matters in SC2. I for one am a decent mechanical player (mainly because I'm not your usual ladder player and not coming from BW, I praticed only my mechanics for hours to catch up, forcing me to use different control groups, tap my buildings while having a good minimap awareness, to be able to macro between stutter steps which takes a good amount of muscle memory, and my hands are fast to begin with as I'm a violinist, not everyone will be willing to put that kind of dedication in a game) but I'm probably a terrible SC2 player overall. There is also game plan, game knowledge, decision making and those very important things that come into play.
tl;dr; Probably the easiest mechanically at low level and sub-125 APM, not at high level.
This isn't a thread about why toss is the easiest race. This is a thread about why people THINK it is the easiest. Unfortunately there is so much misinformation in here by people who have never even played protoss, that it hasn't gone anywhere. I play toss, but when I switched to zerg for a while, I actually saw it from the other side and understand why people hate on toss. But they really need to step into Toss's shoes (do they wear shoes?) and see how far they get. Because at the highest level tosses are falling left and right at the moment, so something's gotta be harder for them than the other races.
On August 11 2011 08:29 Carwash wrote: Protoss is unarguably the easiest race to play low masters and below. Sit on 3 base, max out, and go. Every other race has to constantly harass and scout to keep the toss in check. T and Z are also, generally, reactive to toss.
Against zerg it's impossible to win that way even in low diamond. Get in touch with current metagame.
It's because their production is the simplest, chrono boost is very forgiving like forgetting to make probes against a terran you can chrono some out and be ahead, their deathball is easy to get to and then requires minor micro.
The mechanics/strategies of the race just seem the most straight forward to me. I don't necessarily think they're the easiest race to win with but they have the smallest skill range IMO. It's kind of like the ret pally of SC2 at this point. It's like there's just not enough sexy tactical shit in their arsenal and it gets compensated by having really effective straight forward builds.
Although maybe Protoss players just do their abusive builds more often on NA/EU because the race has less options. I would feel much more compelled to 4gate with toss than 1/1/1 all-in with T because I have so many options that I can do whatever the hell I want to as T which is usually to not all in other than to try it out.
I think that's kind of why P get's overnerfed as well, when the race is doing good I'm pretty sure they're crushing at Diamond/Masters level on blizzard's stat sheet more than they would at the tip top levels of play. The reverse seems to be true for Terran where they under perform in the diamond/masters level (EU/NA) relative to how they good they are theoretically on those maps.
Anyways I don't want to sound like I'm shitting on P players because like I said I don't necessarily think they're the easiest race to win with right now and I certainly respect the good ones.
optional: for after you 1a, hands off keyboard and celebrate!
that's why i play protoss, zerg is way too hard and u can't 1a seige tanks
Quite possibly the best post I've ever seen. -Warp gate counter icon (l2macro pls) - Chrono Boost - Colossus ff-a move is not considered micro t- a move is not considered micro entire army on one hot key is not considered micro.
Easiest macro and the least puinshed for using 1 hotkey for entire army. The 1 hotkey thing only matters on lower levels though because better players will punish that.
These are my experiences. Toss is the easiest to pick up, but harder to control and execute at a diamond+ level. Terran feels hard at first to macro, but has very straightforward army control, and rewards multitasking very well. Zerg is easy to play wrong, hard to play right.
On August 11 2011 08:42 Olsson wrote: It's because their production is the simplest, chrono boost is very forgiving like forgetting to make probes against a terran you can chrono some out and be ahead, their deathball is easy to get to and then requires minor micro.
Except if you don't chrono them out once your energy hits 25 you are behind because if those probes were out faster the entire time you would have mined significantly more. If you were perfectly chronoing your upgrades they would be out faster than they would be otherwise and that matters in big engagements. That's a hilarious mentality. If you have macro hatches you can inject on both hatcheries when your queen has excess energy. You can also drop as many mules as you want at once. It's exactly the same.
That's the kind of argument from players who don't play exceptionally well, and the reason that pro players often do hilarious things against plat-diamond players like mass raven and still win. Because those players are just bad. None of them are hitting chrono on time, the same way the others don't inject on 25 and drop mules at 50 every time.
I always play people on ladder who are masters and yet all they know how to do is some horribyl executed 1-1-1 that makes me wonder how they ever win with it followed by an immediate rage quit, we'll play again, play a macro game and I'll absolutely slaughter them. Or a zerg who 2 base roach all-ins, gets held off, and flounders completely in the mid and late game. All of these races have horrible players using EZ-mode strategies to get further than they should.
People would whine no matter what. My 2c is : Zerg has the hardest macro. Actually IMO, zerg's macro isn't the hardest, just less intuitive if you've played WC3 for example. And zergs require the least microing - their units die so quickly, that it's more of a "when do I attack" and "how do I position my units beforehand" problem than "how do I micro now" one. Except for baneling drops, they do require skill
Now that we have large maps, Terran becomes incredibly interesting to play. If you don't harass you're at a disadvantage, and harassing requires you to multitask more than any other race - making two or three pronged attacks, microing banshees while doing that, etc. I know, most people would say that defending multipronged attacks is harder than accomplishing one successfully, for a zerg a least. But I think this isn't exactly the case, as when harassing, you're required to make so much damage, that you should be the one microing units at all places better to make it efficient.
As for Protoss - your best strategy involves having one large ball of units. There have been alternatives from time to time, but none has stayed as a solid strategy. Defending drops is laughably easy when compared to doing so with zerg or terran - both HT and DTs make it extremely easy for you. However, I do think that protoss units require this WC3 style micro, for the first time in a Starcraft game. Blinking stalkers, casting feedbacks and storms, morphing archons when there's no energy left, etc. Well, evading storms isn't easy either but yep, Protoss is the micro race.
As a whole, I do think that Protoss is the easiest race to play. However, it's not by a large margin. And even if it was, you shouldn't be insulted by any idiot on the internet. I see that the reason you started this thread is because you got insulted by a random guy with no brain - just don't. I mean, it's his fault choosing a harder race /if it actually is/, and now he's making excuses - what a lame ****. Make fun of him, annoy him and don't take him seriously. The reason I dislike players and casters like Artosis and IdrA is that despite being too vocal about imbalances at the highest level could be beneficial, this hurts the fun of all casual gamers, who get matched against retards listening to those two and having their time spoiled by this same old flaming. And I think when you are a smart person like the two guys mentioned, you hold responsibility to know that 99% of people who are listening to you are retards and would act accordingly. I've been in the DotA community for a while, even playing with pros, and despite the legends of Starcraft players being the most mannered (which stays true because of some really awesome people, who are very few btw), people as a whole are worse in SC2 than they were in DotA ... I think that says it all :D
On August 11 2011 08:11 Strayline wrote: Yes it is true that Zergs get harder when they can actually use their powerful macro mechanics but you can use all that "free apm" that you aren't using to spread creep/inject/set up new bases to harass/feign aggression to throw most zergs at diamond off their game.
And this is exactly how the game balances out. At the highest level, if Protoss were cleaning up the tournaments then the race might well be overpowered. As it currently stands the stats show that it is currently the hardest race to win tournaments with, although that may well just be a shift in the metagame.
Protoss is the easiest race IMO. I just don't find anything about them to be difficult. Multipronged attacks aren't needed, pressure is less important, they encourage ball play, the mechanics are very easy, colossus are stupid powerful for the micro required, all units are some what forgiving high HP units, and honestly not enough of their units outside the sentry look like they take much skill. Even drops are just a few clicks away for defending. Things like base planning are less important, and thinking about defense as well.
If you look at Terran from an observer stand point you can see every little detail to maximize unit efficiency, and its the ones that do it the best that succeed.
I think in HotS they need to replace the Colossus with the Reaver. I think then Protoss will gain some respect, at least for me. I loved everything about the Reaver but because of the Colossus in SCII I find Protoss to kinda be a joke. I would probably be a random player if not for Protoss just looking boring and easy.
Anyway, I only think Protoss is easiest till about top 100 GM master, after that the skill ceiling for Terran makes Terran the best, and that makes predictable Protoss meh.
I don't think that there is a person in the whole world who couldn't master all of the races with very little practice. Neither is there a person who wouldn't gladly put on extra value to that practice time by saying that it actually is the hardest thing to do in the whole game.
On August 11 2011 08:29 Carwash wrote: Protoss is unarguably the easiest race to play low masters and below. Sit on 3 base, max out, and go. Every other race has to constantly harass and scout to keep the toss in check. T and Z are also, generally, reactive to toss.
Against zerg it's impossible to win that way even in low diamond. Get in touch with current metagame.
It's really not...it took me about 5 games of off racing as Protoss (I play diamond terran for the most part) to get the hang of low level PvZ, it's not terribly difficult to 3gate expo, get good enough with forcefields to poke the zerg (to avoid constant droning) and not die to lots of roaches, get colossus, 3 bases, max out, get lots of gateways, attack, remax with blink stalkers, win. It was really boring how often that worked.
Am I saying Protoss is the easiest race to play? Fuck no I think that's retarded, the whole '3 base a-move' thing worked in competitive play for all of a couple of weeks. Am I saying Protoss is the easiest race to play in the lower leagues? Fuck no, I just picked it up quickly because it's not toooo too difficult to go from terran to protoss.
In the lower leagues, you actually don't have to constantly harrass and scout to keep the toss in check, better macro is always king in lower league play. It's a tired saying, but below masters (and in masters tbh) you can always have more units than you do, and if you figure that out then you can win 9 times out of 10.
I have to remind OP though that he should not feel like everyone thinks protoss is easy just because he gets a lot of rage on ladder. Every race gets that, I guarantee you. There's always the fucking dicks who aren't interested in finding out why they lost and find it easier to just go 'skilless a-move race'. I get it as both T and P. TvP is my favourite match up from both sides, and it's always satisfying telling balance whiners that I actually play their race and can beat them with either if they'd like.
Also I have to query the idea that protoss is the a-move race...I actually find it much easier to be precise with gateway units in particular. Colossus, yeah, a-move unit, dull. Gateway units, though, allow (but do not require) a lot of finesse.
EDIT: Is this thread just sanctioned balance whining? Because I thought that was what the 'Letting Off Steam' thread was for?
These threads are .. meh. They always end up in a ton of people going
"My race needs to micro each unit independently, do perfect forcefields and use feedbacks" What does the player typically do - none of those
"My race needs to split units with 300+ apm to avoid banelings, focus fire with tanks, emp infestors/hts before FG/Storm hits because they instakill 30+ food of marines, pick up bio units in medivacs when theyre cut off from forcefields while dropping 3 places on the map"
"My race takes a ton of micro because I need to split my army in two and engage from two angles, and I also use corruption sometimes"
People state a ton of shit that their race is capable of doing, but they're never doing half of it. If you want to know which race has the most potential output of perfect micro, then yes, the answer is terran, if you question it you're silly. If it's how much you "have to do" - then the discussion is void, there's nothing any race absolutely has to do to win, and yes, there are countless scenarios for all races where one player has to micro his ass off while the other can LALALALALA through it all.
On August 11 2011 08:29 Carwash wrote: Protoss is unarguably the easiest race to play low masters and below. Sit on 3 base, max out, and go. Every other race has to constantly harass and scout to keep the toss in check. T and Z are also, generally, reactive to toss.
Against zerg it's impossible to win that way even in low diamond. Get in touch with current metagame.
I guess you're just really bad. At low diamond, the metagame doesn't even matter.
People who make this argument for anything other than lower leagues are just making stuff up. Easier to spend money? How many pros have trouble spending money? They get easy access to the W key for warpgates? How many pros have trouble remembering and maintaining their hotkeys?
The problem with your mindset OP, is that you're equating a race that CAN micro or that does have special abilities, as one that is difficult to play or win with.
The special abilities of the protoss do not need to be used to win, and even when they are, many of them don't take a whole lot of skill to do considering that smart casting does most of the work.
Protoss is an easy race because the have simple and very powerful units. Such units that don't get hard countered as easily, and generally have features such as being able to attack both air and ground units, as well as being ranged (the only exception being the zealot). colossus, voidray, stalker and zealot are pretty much a-move units that don't take much special tactics to be effective, and are pretty strong (albeit a bit expensive)
With a race like zerg, it is extremely easy to waste an ASSLOAD of units from a bad battle decision, engaging with the wrong units, not flanking the enemy, or not harassing effectively. Not only that, but zerg has to balance production of drones with production of army units, as well as inject ON TIME, and spread creep, something neither of the other races have to do, since their energy can be spent all at once (even if it's not as effective, it's far better than nothing).
Terran is difficult because it tends to require the most micro and positional advantages to get ahead in battles, which takes a lot of skill to execute well. They also have the hardest time with production since they will almost always use a strong balance of 3 different types of production buildings, while protoss is more 1 or 2.
in a nutshell this guy put it well:
for after you 1a, hands off keyboard and celebrate! that's why i play protoss, zerg is way too hard and u can't 1a seige tanks
Because protoss has the joker Protoss can play the joker in anny lower league game in wich they are way behind and have a 50% change of winning the game (yes am ranting about the dark templar wich is a huge pain in the but for players below diamond)
On a more serious note: i didnt knew protoss was now considerd the easiest race Maybe it is because protoss requiers less macro mechanics at first sight then the other races and maybe also because protoss had one verry dominant strategy (4gate) wich was relativly easy to learn and execute
What frustrated me about playing Protoss at release was how easy it felt if I just relied on "gimmicks" or "tactics" or just sat back and waited for critical colossi. I would look back at my games and realize I had terrible probe production, I would constantly miss warpgate timings, but I would still win if I did one of those 2.
It got really frustrating when I switched to Terran after wiping the floor with my friends as Protoss. People I used to beat when I considered myself in an abysmal state, I started losing to. It wasn't necessarily them getting better or my lack of knowledge of Terran (since it had been some time since I switched), but merely that they were able to hold on to their arsenal of tactics while still clinging to crappy macro mechanics. I mean, ffs, one of them to this day doesn't use hotkeys and he's in masters. When I see stuff like this first hand, it's what convinces me Protoss is a lot easier to play at my level.
One of the things to remember about Protoss is that the macro mechanics line up with what you're doing pretty well. If you're doing an all out assault (not necessarily an all-in), you're probably not making probes, and you shouldn't be making probes if the attack is timed correctly. If you're defending your base, you're keeping up with macro and upgrades instinctively anyways.
Another thread with bronze level players commenting, sigh... People talking about Protoss macro as if it's easy when we're the only race that can't really build units while micro'ing, people talking about how it's also easy to make gates, what? Terran have to make rax's, not much difference...
Point is, this thread is pointless, I wasn't lying when I said bronze level players, it's quite obvious the majority of the people posting have never even played at a high level if they think Protoss is A-moving race when that will get demolished by a MMM army with emp or an infestor based zerg army, Protoss is the most unforgiving race in terms of micro.
It also depends of which matchups, TvP is by far the most 1 dimensional matchup in the game, most top Terrans agree that it's a simple matchup for Terran.
i think some ppl are assuming that just because, for example, terran can do multiprong drops and multitask, and it takes more skill to play.
what they're missing that is that its often times just as hard, if not harder to defend against a multi-harrass. it requires multitasking + quick decision making on the fly.
same applies for zerg multiprong/counter attacks vs terran, the defender has to be just as good at multicontrol or he is going to take terrible terrible damage
On August 11 2011 09:08 Shooks wrote: Another thread with bronze level players commenting, sigh... People talking about Protoss macro as if it's easy when we're the only race that can't really build units while micro'ing, people talking about how it's also easy to make gates, what? Terran have to make rax's, not much difference...
Point is, this thread is pointless, I wasn't lying when I said bronze level players, it's quite obvious the majority of the people posting have never even played at a high level if they think Protoss is A-moving when that will get demolished by a MMM army with emp or an infestor based zerg army, Protoss is the most unforgiving race in terms of micro.
It also depends of which matchups, TvP is by far the most 1 dimensional matchup if the game, most top Terrans agree that it's a simple matchup for Terran.
On August 11 2011 08:16 FabledIntegral wrote: Protoss lategame army involves the least amount of micro by far. I'd say Terran requires the most. I don't know how people possibly think that Protoss involves the most micro. I'd say it involves the least, and FF's aren't even remotely hard to do well imo from the experience I've had playing them I almost always have had near PERFECT FF's. Watching GSL also I see nigh perfect FF's, they almost never fuck them up. I'm not saying Protoss is imba by any means, but for ease of play...
On August 11 2011 08:15 cheesemaster wrote: I am a diamond protoss player who has recently switched to zerg (only gold-plat for zerg) and i find the macro mechanics much much more forgiving for zerg.
Lose 10 drones? no problem get them back with your next 2 larva injects then start pumping units like nothing has happened. And if larva is a problem because of that get another hatch.
Plus its so easy to just press 4s d,z,r, h W/e it is. The thing with protoss is you actually have to go back to your base to warp in units, where as when i play zerg i can be attacking and still watching my units while i do it. I dunno zerg suits me alot better and i think in no time it will be above protoss on my level.
Despite me finding chroning probes ridiculously easy (teehee), the actual macro mechanic is inject, which is the least forgiving of the three. It's not debatable. Losing ten drones and remaking them easier than toss or terran is not related to the macro mechanic ease of use.
First part, why is terran has more amount of micro than toss where you just press EMP, stim and stutter step? Protoss gotta blink, storm, fb, FF, positioning to right? you miss one of those, you die, that 's why ppl say protoss require micro the most. 2nd part, Terran doesn't need SCVs, Polt lost ~30 SCVs to Nobleless, yet he still can crawl back in the game with better skill and MULE. In which way you can chronoboost 6-10 gates, upgrades, colossus and 30 probes and crawl back in the game?
On August 11 2011 08:57 Xapti wrote: The problem with your mindset OP, is that you're equating a race that CAN micro or that does have special abilities, as one that is difficult to play or win with.
Nono, I'm not saying that it's more difficult than any other race, just arguing that it's quite equal.
On August 11 2011 08:57 Xapti wrote: The problem with your mindset OP, is that you're equating a race that CAN micro or that does have special abilities, as one that is difficult to play or with with.
The special abilities of the protoss do not need to be used to win, and even when they are, many of them don't take a whole lot of skill to do considering that smart casting does most of the work.
Protoss is an easy race because the have simple and very powerful units. Such units that don't get hard countered as easily, and generally have features such as being able to attack both air and ground units, as well as being ranged (the only exception being the zealot). colossus, voidray, stalker and zealot are pretty much a-move units that don't take much special tactics to be effective, and are pretty strong (albeit a bit expensive)
With a race like zerg, it is extremely easy to waste an ASSLOAD of units from a bad battle decision, engaging with the wrong units, not flanking the enemy, or not harassing effectively. Not only that, but zerg has to balance production of drones with production of army units, as well as inject ON TIME, and spread creep, something neither of the other races have to do, since their energy can be spent all at once (even if it's not as effective, it's far better than nothing).
Terran is difficult because it tends to require the most micro and positional advantages to get ahead in battles, which takes a lot of skill to execute well. They also have the hardest time with production since they will almost always use a strong balance of 3 different types of production buildings, while protoss is more 1 or 2.
for after you 1a, hands off keyboard and celebrate! that's why i play protoss, zerg is way too hard and u can't 1a seige tanks
I'm no grandmaster player, but I feel like this post is almost completely wrong. Saying stalkers don't require micro is bullshit, plain and simple. Stalkers scale worse then the rest of the 'holy trinity'(I don't where I heard that, but Stalker, Roach, Maruader) which makes blink micro essential to trade even or better with them.
Voids not need micro is also bullshit. Targeting the correct unit and maintaining charge is micro like anything else.
Toss also doesn't have some huge advantage to range or targeting. Zerg is the worst as their known as a melee race, so it's just by design that most units aren't long range and don't shoot up. Terran actually has ALL ranged units, also by design. Toss is in the middle and they have one more unit that can shoot up then Terran, if you want to count the sentry's tickle.
Toss also pretty much requires good force fields and late game storm to stay competitive in certain situations. EMP vs Feedback is also micro intensive. I really feel like this is completely based of lower league play where I will agree Toss requires the least micro, but in high level play, every race is micro intensive and to say one requires way more or less is crazy to me.
On August 11 2011 08:47 n00b3rt wrote: Defending drops is laughably easy when compared to doing so with zerg or terran - both HT and DTs make it extremely easy for you.
sry, but I had to quote, after KA nerf, protoss is BY FAR, the worst at defending drops, protoss units are slow, VERY SLOW, they are big, making it hard getting to the drop, and they are shit in low numbers. some say you can warp troops near the drop, but it is only possible if you forgot to warp in and so have then in standby protoss players are just good at spotting drops cause people abuse then a lot and they had to develop this ability.
Well its just the fact that a toss can just defend drops and harrassment untill 200/200, the toss army at 200 food is almost unstopable, well at least for myelf as a Terran. But its just something we have to deal with lol some toss players get cute with their strats, but ive played as many toss games as i have terran, and yes, its way easier to play lol. Just the ability to put up cannons, sit around til maxed out on 3 bases, and win most of the time.
Well... as Idra once said.... "Voldemort plays Protoss"
In all seriousness, I think that if anything, Protoss has the least punishing macro mechanic. If you play with a tight build as Terran, you need the mules to be able to produce everything you want to. If you play zerg at all, and forget injects you end up not having that many units. However, for Protoss, let's say you stop chronoboosting... well. That actually happens, which doesn't make sense. Other than that everything is balanced. <3
I would agree that terran isn't exactly op but they have the units to counter each race perfectly, hellions, ghosts, seige tanks... they complain about their air but its actually quite strong and counters protoss air very nicely if used properly. zerg vs protoss i think at this point is even just protoss has to counter infestiny... which can be quite easy if you actually watch the replays, find the timing that they go pit and put up your templar, defend, get 3rd base, build 3 robos into mass collosus and gateway units after first getting templar. terran its completly different, they just emp you and you get shreaded or hellion drop or cloak banshee or drop marines, its a lot of or's with terran compare to zerg
On August 11 2011 09:08 Shooks wrote: Another thread with bronze level players commenting, sigh... People talking about Protoss macro as if it's easy when we're the only race that can't really build units while micro'ing, people talking about how it's also easy to make gates, what? Terran have to make rax's, not much difference...
Point is, this thread is pointless, I wasn't lying when I said bronze level players, it's quite obvious the majority of the people posting have never even played at a high level if they think Protoss is A-moving race when that will get demolished by a MMM army with emp or an infestor based zerg army, Protoss is the most unforgiving race in terms of micro.
It also depends of which matchups, TvP is by far the most 1 dimensional matchup in the game, most top Terrans agree that it's a simple matchup for Terran.
With that sentence i can now conclude that you are one of those bronze players you speak of. Toss has the toughest units in the entire game. As a zerg an entire control group of lings get roasted in a second to hellions if you look away at the wrong moment, an infinite number of mutas gets destroyed to a thor volley if you missmicro, huge groups of marines perish to two fungals. Nothing in a Toss army dies that quickly to anything.
Now i play random so i don't care which race is easiest or hardest, but one thing is definitely true, as a toss you don't have to babysit your units like you have to with Z/T.
This thread feels like an asylum, it's just a bunch of low-ranked/butthurt players venting their anger from not knowing shit about playing the game or from that earlier game they got stomped by a Protoss, and they somehow can say all the crazy stuff they've said with a straight face. Can someone lock this?
After reading every page, I derive that I have gone mentally insane. The amount of circular arguments is mind numbing. As soon as someone makes a new point, it just loops back again. It's like being trapped in a 20 page hell.
Protoss macro is very simple and the units don't have to be positioned as importantly as they do with Terran and Zerg in my opinion. It's easier just like it was in BW. Pushing masters as a Protoss can be more difficult than Terran or Zerg though for some people, since that's where you need to utilize advanced [special] tactics and put a stronger focus on strategy.
On August 11 2011 08:47 n00b3rt wrote: Defending drops is laughably easy when compared to doing so with zerg or terran - both HT and DTs make it extremely easy for you.
sry, but I had to quote, after KA nerf, protoss is BY FAR, the worst at defending drops, protoss units are slow, VERY SLOW, they are big, making it hard getting to the drop, and they are shit in low numbers. some say you can warp troops near the drop, but it is only possible if you forgot to warp in and so have then in standby protoss players are just good at spotting drops cause people abuse then a lot and they had to develop this ability.
other races rarely use their main army to defend drops, especially while attacking. You're complaining that you can't 1A your army there. DTs are the best drop cleanup unit ever, cannons are the best static defense and also the part about forgetting the warp in is just wrong. Drops are most effective late game and even if all your gates are at cooldown, at that time you have plenty o' WG-s and some will be ready soon. And even if it takes a couple of seconds, it actually requires more for a drop to be effective. Still, just because I disagree with you on that one, I don't want to sound like a whiny dbag - as I've said, imo despite easier drop defense, the harder micro during battles makes it up for the difficulty of the race
On August 11 2011 09:21 GrungyMunchy wrote: This thread feels like an asylum, it's just a bunch of low-ranked/butthurt players venting their anger from not knowing shit about playing the game or from that earlier game they got stomped by a Protoss, and they somehow can say all the crazy stuff they've said with a straight face. Can someone lock this?
I mostly agree that the whining guys are acting butthurt and all, but insulting them for being "low-ranked" isn't appropriate, as the topic is about how hard a race is, and surely, this is more important in the lower leagues, where players have a harder time overcoming the difficulties of their race.
On August 11 2011 09:08 Shooks wrote: Another thread with bronze level players commenting, sigh... People talking about Protoss macro as if it's easy when we're the only race that can't really build units while micro'ing, people talking about how it's also easy to make gates, what? Terran have to make rax's, not much difference...
Point is, this thread is pointless, I wasn't lying when I said bronze level players, it's quite obvious the majority of the people posting have never even played at a high level if they think Protoss is A-moving race when that will get demolished by a MMM army with emp or an infestor based zerg army, Protoss is the most unforgiving race in terms of micro.
It also depends of which matchups, TvP is by far the most 1 dimensional matchup in the game, most top Terrans agree that it's a simple matchup for Terran.
With that sentence i can now conclude that you are one of those bronze players you speak of. Toss has the toughest units in the entire game. As a zerg an entire control group of lings get roasted in a second to hellions if you look away at the wrong moment, an infinite number of mutas gets destroyed to a thor volley if you missmicro, huge groups of marines perish to two fungals. Nothing in a Toss army dies that quickly to anything.
Now i play random so i don't care which race is easiest or hardest, but one thing is definitely true, as a toss you don't have to babysit your units like you have to with Z/T.
Not being able to admit Protoss is the most unforgiving race blows my mind. I mean watching Yigioh play Thorzain the other day, can you honestly say that you need to baby sit units as zerg? Infact it's the complete opposite, the only units you need to babysit is the Mutas, and it's a fast flying units....Not exactly that hard if you have good APM. Like shit, I've vsed Zerg's that have just right clicked my Nexus with a bunch of roaches and lose them all then be able to make a ton more since there so cheap
Since when is getting all your lings roasted gonna cost you the game, it can in the early game, but so does missing an FF on the ramp, durp.
Saying Protoss units are tough is stupid, we get caught off guard and get fungal'd and we can lose them game right there, we get an Obs sniped and cloaked ghosts emp the sentrys and HTs, we lose, we get our collosi out of position and get sniped by vikings we lose, we miss FFs we lose, we have an HT based army against Terran and most of them get EMP'd we lose, the list goes on and on.
I play zerg and I think its pretty clear that zerg is the easiest race
All races are played almost equally, yet in bronze up to platinum there are far less zergs then protoss and terran. This must mean that playing zerg you have a higher chance at being platinum + leagues
All races are the same to play. It's a players understanding of the race they are playing and the game in general that makes a player good, (and skill.. duh) not which race they are playing.
Probably easiest to learn (4gate and 200/200 deathball are not that hard and will get you some wins in lower leagues) but most difficult to master. (as we've seen in high level tournaments)
On August 11 2011 09:08 Shooks wrote: Another thread with bronze level players commenting, sigh... People talking about Protoss macro as if it's easy when we're the only race that can't really build units while micro'ing, people talking about how it's also easy to make gates, what? Terran have to make rax's, not much difference...
Point is, this thread is pointless, I wasn't lying when I said bronze level players, it's quite obvious the majority of the people posting have never even played at a high level if they think Protoss is A-moving race when that will get demolished by a MMM army with emp or an infestor based zerg army, Protoss is the most unforgiving race in terms of micro.
It also depends of which matchups, TvP is by far the most 1 dimensional matchup in the game, most top Terrans agree that it's a simple matchup for Terran.
With that sentence i can now conclude that you are one of those bronze players you speak of. Toss has the toughest units in the entire game. As a zerg an entire control group of lings get roasted in a second to hellions if you look away at the wrong moment, an infinite number of mutas gets destroyed to a thor volley if you missmicro, huge groups of marines perish to two fungals. Nothing in a Toss army dies that quickly to anything.
Now i play random so i don't care which race is easiest or hardest, but one thing is definitely true, as a toss you don't have to babysit your units like you have to with Z/T.
Try missing those FFs at high level and we'll see how it goes. You live and die with them in most cases. You can't let a bio-ball, nor a roach-ball get to close without cutting them of.
On August 11 2011 08:47 n00b3rt wrote: Defending drops is laughably easy when compared to doing so with zerg or terran - both HT and DTs make it extremely easy for you.
sry, but I had to quote, after KA nerf, protoss is BY FAR, the worst at defending drops, protoss units are slow, VERY SLOW, they are big, making it hard getting to the drop, and they are shit in low numbers. some say you can warp troops near the drop, but it is only possible if you forgot to warp in and so have then in standby protoss players are just good at spotting drops cause people abuse then a lot and they had to develop this ability.
other races rarely use their main army to defend drops, especially while attacking. You're complaining that you can't 1A your army there. DTs are the best drop cleanup unit ever, cannons are the best static defense and also the part about forgetting the warp in is just wrong. Drops are most effective late game and even if all your gates are at cooldown, at that time you have plenty o' WG-s and some will be ready soon. And even if it takes a couple of seconds, it actually requires more for a drop to be effective. Still, just because I disagree with you on that one, I don't want to sound like a whiny dbag - as I've said, imo despite easier drop defense, the harder micro during battles makes it up for the difficulty of the race
You're thinking of it all wrong, you comparing a Protoss lategame army to a early/midgame army in terms of defending drops. A lategame Protoss army that isn't maxed can definitely deal with a drop quite easily assuming it's only 1 medivac. An early/midgame army of Protoss doesn't have many gateways, nor are gateway units strong against MMM, you warp in a bunch of zealots and they get kited, you warp in stalkers they get 1 shotted, saying Protoss doesn't need to split up their army to deal with drops is stupid, why do you think sixjaxMajor owns pretty much every Protoss, he's drops are fucking hard to deal with. Simple
Oh btw a medivac and a marauder can kill a cannon, saying cannons is the best static defense is hilarious.
On August 11 2011 09:23 GoKu` wrote: everyone thinks their race is the hardest to play. That is usually how these topics / ideas get started.
How do you explain the opinions of us random players?
Personal preference or whatever you think is easier.
Something being easy is subjective. Some may find zerg to be the easiest race, some may find it to be the hardest, but you cant just say which is the easiest overall.
People try and compare by saying stuff like "well protoss has warp ins" or "but terrans have mules" and being willfully stupid. You cannot compare like that, you're comparing one trait out of maybe like 1000, it's just silly.
This thread is pretty entertaining but still useless. I think it should stay open just for some entertainment, i love these sort of tense drama-ish threads
On August 11 2011 09:26 eXwOn wrote: After reading every page, I derive that I have gone mentally insane. The amount of circular arguments is mind numbing. As soon as someone makes a new point, it just loops back again. It's like being trapped in a 20 page hell.
It's a stupid and useless fucking thread.. I don't know why mods didn't close it right away.
On August 11 2011 05:07 jonathan1 wrote: in my opinion, it's because they don't have the ability to move out of their base with small amounts of units to harass very well. we can see much more multi-tasking from terran and zerg players while protoss tend to sit in their base more and just focus on macro.
Zergs and Terrans like to attack my protoss with their oh-so-good multitasking only to fail miserably against me. Defending multi attacks is harder than attacking multi places. Protoss units have very diff movement speed therefore 3 hotkeys are required. Stalkers,Zealot&Sentry and Collo/high templar. 1 misclick with forcefield will cost you the game. So the point is, Protoss is a hard race.. just different and some noobs don't understand the race and whine.
My main is zerg but recently I got a smurf account for fun. I flip a coin to decide if I wan't to play terran or protoss. For me protoss is a much easier race to macro and control. My smurf is gold right now and my rank usually goes up while playing Protoss and down when playing Terran. I'm only plat on my main but I would say Protoss is the easiest class to learn. Just my opinion tho ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
On August 11 2011 09:48 Shiluk wrote: My main is zerg but recently I got a smurf account for fun. I flip a coin to decide if I wan't to play terran or protoss. For me protoss is a much easier race to macro and control. My smurf is gold right now and my rank usually goes up while playing Protoss and down when playing Terran. I'm only plat on my main but I would say Protoss is the easiest class to learn. Just my opinion tho ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Learn a good Terran timing attack and come back bro.
Edit: Just Terran timing attack every one of them is good.
The reason why people think Toss is the easiest race is because its just widely known that Zerg is the macro race while Terran is the micro race. Toss has always been in the middle and it just has a bunch of conveniences. Macro is not has hard as zerg with creep/inject because all you have to do is build warpgates and tech structure and bam you warp in ANYWHERE. Micro is not has hard as Terran with Stop/stim/emp because all you have to do is back up with collosi and FF. And when the deathball is reached you do 1A there is no doubt. Toss has the strongest units by far and if they reach 200/200 with even upgrades, the game is usually over. I dont know why toss players take it so hard. Ok, toss is the easiest race, GOOD FOR TOSS PLAYER. They are also by far the coolest.
T an P are easier for bronze .. gold. From the point wher dt, cannon, void ray, build army-1a cheese do not work anymore it starts getting harder and i think both terran and protoss are not easier than Z then
Didn't know there were so many high profile grandmaster players with indepth knowledge about all the races and it's ups and downs out there to fill 22 pages of balance and race discussion. Or might it rather be the case, that Johnny Bronze and Freddy Silver tried to contribute their opinion?
After hitting master with Zerg I wanted to try Terran since I really disliked Zerg. It took me ages to get back to master level, about a month of playing 10-15 games a day, which is a lot for me. When I eventually tried Protoss it was a LOT easier. I could macro with toss and keep my money low for a long macro game after like 2/3 games. This was much harder to achieve with Terran. I think a mix of easier mechanics and warpgates makes toss a lot easier to play as, at least in the beginning.
On August 11 2011 09:54 radiantshadow92 wrote: The reason why people think Toss is the easiest race is because its just widely known that Zerg is the macro race while Terran is the micro race. Toss has always been in the middle and it just has a bunch of conveniences. Macro is not has hard as zerg with creep/inject because all you have to do is build warpgates and tech structure and bam you warp in ANYWHERE. Micro is not has hard as Terran with Stop/stim/emp because all you have to do is back up with collosi and FF. And when the deathball is reached you do 1A there is no doubt. Toss has the strongest units by far and if they reach 200/200 with even upgrades, the game is usually over. I dont know why toss players take it so hard. Ok, toss is the easiest race, GOOD FOR TOSS PLAYER. They are also by far the coolest.
Vikings auto attack Collosi, EMP is the hard counter to HTs (Meaning we're the race that has to spread the units). Protoss units are not stronger when it's even upgrades and we get all our units EMPd (And it's pretty hard to not get all your units EMP'd when theres 8+ ghosts in the lategame)
On August 11 2011 09:48 Shiluk wrote: My main is zerg but recently I got a smurf account for fun. I flip a coin to decide if I wan't to play terran or protoss. For me protoss is a much easier race to macro and control. My smurf is gold right now and my rank usually goes up while playing Protoss and down when playing Terran. I'm only plat on my main but I would say Protoss is the easiest class to learn. Just my opinion tho ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Learn a good Terran timing attack and come back bro.
Edit: Just Terran timing attack every one of them is good.
Or he could just play protoss and not have to worry about silly timings at all, he only has to attack once he no longer can build additional units.
On August 11 2011 09:26 eXwOn wrote: After reading every page, I derive that I have gone mentally insane. The amount of circular arguments is mind numbing. As soon as someone makes a new point, it just loops back again. It's like being trapped in a 20 page hell.
Omg, the dedication strikes me! I've read like 3 in total. oO
Protoss is easy to understand quickly, warpgate make production into " i want unit here, i get unit here instantly". Chronobbost can be forget after 10min ( hell, most pro have 100 energy on nexus pass 20min )
And protoss is naturaly turtlely, because the more unit you have, the best it is, and new player don't like attacking.
I think it's because they are the easiest race to learn - Chrono-boost is the least-useful macro mechanic and hence is the least dangerous to forget about. Warp-gates are a more flexible production building than anything other than hatches. Basic Protoss units don't die quite as fast to a mis-click and the first five buildings that go down are the same and in the same order pretty much regardless of your intended build order, if you are playing standard (obviously I'm excluding Forge Fast Expand as I wouldn't expect players to do that at lower levels, although of course I also wouldn't know).
However to say they are the easiest to play is absolutely ridiculous. People say they don't require as much multi-tasking, which is bullshit, as they in fact require arguably the MOST multi-tasking - you HAVE to babysit your army and you HAVE to look away from your army to build stuff. Fending off drops and multi-pronged attacks is a LOT harder to do than executing them (which is why multi-pronged attacks and drops are so awesome).
Toss CAN NOT turtle in their base until maxed and then move out and win. This has never been true vs Terran (of course they might win, but not if they 1a and even then it depends on micro) and now that Zergs have figured out that Roach/Hydra isn't actually good in the late game it's especially not true vs Zerg (and even then it required perfect micro and positioning from Protoss to just roll-out and win).
Now, people will probably argue with every point that I have made, but the simple fact is, Protoss IS the easiest race to learn. However, it's entirely possible to argue that they are in fact the HARDEST to play (I would not argue this btw as I think the races are relatively equal here, possibly with Terran needing the best mechanics) due to the fragility of the Protoss game, inability to pressure good opponents without high-risk pushes and complete inability to play from behind.
On August 11 2011 09:58 Raimu wrote: After hitting master with Zerg I wanted to try Terran since I really disliked Zerg. It took me ages to get back to master level, about a month of playing 10-15 games a day, which is a lot for me. When I eventually tried Protoss it was a LOT easier. I could macro with toss and keep my money low for a long macro game after like 2/3 games. This was much harder to achieve with Terran. I think a mix of easier mechanics and warpgates makes toss a lot easier to play as, at least in the beginning.
It's just the effect of having played the other two races before. I main protoss but I regularly custom againt master protosses and I beat them with terran, because I know a bit more how protoss works and what I can exploit. The two races are really not that different, although I think that terran is actually the strongest if you have APM to spare.
About Zerg I don't really know, doesn't seem that hard to spam roaches and throw them at your opponent (haha j/k..........kinda ;D).
Protoss is easier to learn to a decent level of play because of the relative ease of using forcefields early game and the strenght of some of the all ins protoss can do. If you only play 1 base or 2 base all ins with protoss then that's the easiest way to possibly play the game. It requires a minimal ammount of multitasking and macro while still being pretty strong vs people who don't have solid builds.
However at high levels protoss mechanics are actually quite hard. Chrono boost usage is one of the more advanced things in terms of decisionmaking and warp in requires more multitasking to be used for making units. Obviously warp in has it's huge benefits aswell. Consider that you have to jump around the screen a lot to just keep spending chrono boosts and warp in units. Compared to a zerg the zerg has more chores but they can be done faster and compared to terran, well... They only have to mule and make supplies and then spend the rest of the time attacking. But also a terran needs to multifront harass in most scenarios so it evens out the multitasking requirements quite a lot.
The biggest argument for why protoss is easier on lower levels is that the death ball is extremely easy to control and very strong by itself. A lot of top players know how to somewhat neutralise the death ball and thus a protoss needs to add more high level tactics to win a game.
I still think zerg is the hardest to play at a top level because of all the harassment potential of the other races and how zerg really doesnt have an automated defense against drops / air etc. You allways need to actively control units to stop harass as zerg whereas cannons / warp in or turrets / planetary gives the other races some time to get their defense in line. A zerg needs to have an infestor / lings in place or see the harass coming 10 sec before its there or its gonna do major damage even if you have spines.
That being said, it's ridiculous to claim that any race is easy to play at top levels. Ease of use shouldn't even be a discussion at top level. The only thin we should discuss there is the effectiveness of units in certain situations. There is nothing in this game that even comes close to being too hard for a progamer to execute if he puts the time into it.
As a Gold Random, my feelings to each race are as follows:
Terran - easy to macro, best build variety, hardest to reinforce, probably most micro intensive Protoss - average to macro, little variety, best offensive reinforcement, strongest deathball Zerg - hardest to macro, easiest to gain economy lead, best army replenishment, hardest to engage with
I still have trouble with Zerg, but when I lose I always see a fault in poor spending since the economy gets away from me all the time. But other than that, I don't find an advantage in one race over the other. Yet that said, here's how I would rank my understanding and skill in each matchup:
To me, what appears as "easy" is the micro intensity of the "common" units in the match up, and the mix required for common units. TvP is easy at a low level since MMM is easy to remember and execute. Whereas near the other end of the scale, ZvT is hard to obtain the perfect mix of units to counter a marine tank push even when relying on a standard muta-ling army.
Anyway that's just how I feel. Protoss are suffering in the professional scene currently, but a poor month does not make a poor race. And every player has their personal hates. My flatmate is a Terran who hates all Zerg games he has to play, even though he wins more than half of them. I personally dislike fighting against terran because of their variety, even though again I win probably over half of my matches against T.
So it comes down to personal feelings towards a MU or race.
Re OP: From above, toss is potentially considered easiest to play because of the little variety offered. 80% of vP games will see a gateway + robo mix, so some players consider getting the "right mix" easy because there are no match ups that gate + robo are "bad" in.
On August 11 2011 10:03 Noocta wrote: Protoss is easy to understand quickly, warpgate make production into " i want unit here, i get unit here instantly". Chronobbost can be forget after 10min ( hell, most pro have 100 energy on nexus pass 20min )
And protoss is naturaly turtlely, because the more unit you have, the best it is, and new player don't like attacking.
Using CB as a reasoning for Protoss being easy is stupid, half the time when people even mention CB usage, there's nothing to even use it on, most people will just stock pile it 20 mins + in the game to use on gates cause there's nothing else to use it on except pumping out Collosi which doesn't exactly use much CB when you have 5 nexus's.
Zerg is a 'macro' race meaning there defensive, Terran can be defensive and aggressive very easily, so your last comment is retarded.
ZenithM just made probably the best post I've seen not only in this thread, but on the whole of TeamLiquid since I've arrived. I only have one comment for him.
On August 11 2011 08:35 ZenithM wrote: Now, watch pro play, like HuK, Mana, or any korean protoss like MC, San or Puzzle. Can you say that they're doing nothing and are just slow fucks abusing the easiest race? Now look at those so called "smart pro terrans" like Sjow and Goody, who average something like 100 APM. Both of them are very good. Can you find Protoss players who are as successful with the same speed? I mean, the only protoss players with that kind of hand speed that come to my mind are NA protosses like Axslav, Incontrol, Minigun and Cruncher, but they are hardly what you would consider top protosses. I'm rarely amazed at a player's macro in pro games, but man, MC has so much stuff when he plays and manages to reinforce in the middle of a fight, and protoss players know that's a hard thing to do.
You must be saying that Sjow and Goody are top Terrans. I strongly feel like they are comparable to Axslav, Incontrol and Minigun. Infact, I would liquidbet both Axslav and Incontrol over Goody and Sjow any day. Goody has been ass at TvP for ages (IMO largely in part due to his lack of multitasking). Sjow, well, he's alright, but I still feel like to use Bio effectively requires more APM. Sjow could definetly beat these players. But I feel like a 2-0 is much more likely with the Protosses you present.
I would definetly be more confident betting on Axslav and Incontrol against Korean Terrans (excluding The Multitasking Beasts MVP, MMA and Puma) than I would on Sjow and Goody taking a match off any Protoss in Code A or above.
On August 11 2011 10:08 Techno wrote: ZenithM just made probably the best post I've seen not only in this thread, but on the whole of TeamLiquid since I've arrived. I only have one comment for him.
On August 11 2011 08:35 ZenithM wrote: Now, watch pro play, like HuK, Mana, or any korean protoss like MC, San or Puzzle. Can you say that they're doing nothing and are just slow fucks abusing the easiest race? Now look at those so called "smart pro terrans" like Sjow and Goody, who average something like 100 APM. Both of them are very good. Can you find Protoss players who are as successful with the same speed? I mean, the only protoss players with that kind of hand speed that come to my mind are NA protosses like Axslav, Incontrol, Minigun and Cruncher, but they are hardly what you would consider top protosses. I'm rarely amazed at a player's macro in pro games, but man, MC has so much stuff when he plays and manages to reinforce in the middle of a fight, and protoss players know that's a hard thing to do.
You must be saying that Sjow and Goody are top Terrans. I strongly feel like they are comparable to Axslav, Incontrol and Minigun. Infact, I would liquidbet both Axslav and Incontrol over Goody and Sjow any day. Goody has been ass at TvP for ages (IMO largely in part due to his lack of multitasking). Sjow, well, he's alright, but I still feel like to use Bio effectively requires more APM. Sjow could definetly beat these players. But I feel like a 2-0 is much more likely with the Protosses you present.
I would definetly be more confident betting on Axslav and Incontrol against Korean Terrans (excluding The Multitasking Beasts MVP, MMA and Puma) than I would on Sjow and Goody taking a match off any Protoss in Code A or above.
I'd love to agree with you but both Goody and Sjow are some of the most consistent players outside Korea, APM does not necessarily mean multitasking, Sjow was one of the first Terran players to show how good multiprong drops are, Goody also had like a 70% w/l ratio on the EU server, he's low APM is really due to he's mech style
On August 11 2011 10:08 Techno wrote: ZenithM just made probably the best post I've seen not only in this thread, but on the whole of TeamLiquid since I've arrived. I only have one comment for him.
On August 11 2011 08:35 ZenithM wrote: Now, watch pro play, like HuK, Mana, or any korean protoss like MC, San or Puzzle. Can you say that they're doing nothing and are just slow fucks abusing the easiest race? Now look at those so called "smart pro terrans" like Sjow and Goody, who average something like 100 APM. Both of them are very good. Can you find Protoss players who are as successful with the same speed? I mean, the only protoss players with that kind of hand speed that come to my mind are NA protosses like Axslav, Incontrol, Minigun and Cruncher, but they are hardly what you would consider top protosses. I'm rarely amazed at a player's macro in pro games, but man, MC has so much stuff when he plays and manages to reinforce in the middle of a fight, and protoss players know that's a hard thing to do.
You must be saying that Sjow and Goody are top Terrans. I strongly feel like they are comparable to Axslav, Incontrol and Minigun. Infact, I would liquidbet both Axslav and Incontrol over Goody and Sjow any day. Goody has been ass at TvP for ages (IMO largely in part due to his lack of multitasking). Sjow, well, he's alright, but I still feel like to use Bio effectively requires more APM. Sjow could definetly beat these players. But I feel like a 2-0 is much more likely with the Protosses you present.
I would definetly be more confident betting on Axslav and Incontrol against Korean Terrans (excluding The Multitasking Beasts MVP, MMA and Puma) than I would on Sjow and Goody taking a match off any Protoss in Code A or above.
I'd love to agree with you but both Goody and Sjow are some of the most consistent players outside Korea, APM does not necessarily mean multitasking, Sjow was one of the first Terran players to show how good multiprong drops are, Goody also had like a 70% w/l ratio on the EU server, he's low APM is really due to he's mech style
Yes but I don't see how this relates to the discussion. My point about Code A Protoss > Foreign Terrans could be a result of Protoss weakness. Only really good Protosses could make it into Code A.
I do not think Protoss needs a buff to spawn a bonjwa, but it would certainly help.
lets see. Storm - 80 damage over 4 secs[20 dps]. easy to get away from with stim/speedlings/speed roaches (the majority of targets you'll aim for)
fungal growth - 36/46 damage over 4 secs [9/11.5 dps] Can escape or use abilities while caught in it.
regardless of the other spells they both have. (i'd give up feedback any day for infested terran with burrow). actually no. lets think about Infested tarran drops. 4 infestors dropped in a dark spot and sneak to a mineral line. they each make 8 terrans that do 8 dmg!?!?!?! (w/o ups) so thats 32 marines poping up all at the same time around ur nexus/cc/hatch. ur workers are dead plus ur nex/cc/hatch, and maybe even some tech. in 8 secs they can bring down a hive. ALL FOR FREE. just watch this shit:
I've always told my friends that are starting to play protoss because it's easy to learn and easy to become semi-decent. Gateway+colossus is 1a friendly and warpgates make macroing easier because the icon shows up in the bottom right without them needed to know the build timings of units.
On August 11 2011 10:19 SC2Joker wrote: lets see. Storm - 80 damage over 4 secs[20 dps]. easy to get away from with stim/speedlings/speed roaches (the majority of targets you'll aim for)
fungal growth - 36/46 damage over 4 secs [9/11.5 dps] Can escape or use abilities while caught in it.
regardless of the other spells they both have. (i'd give up feedback any day for infested terran with burrow). actually no. lets think about Infested tarran drops. 4 infestors dropped in a dark spot and sneak to a mineral line. they each make 8 terrans that do 8 dmg!?!?!?! (w/o ups) so thats 32 marines poping up all at the same time around ur nexus/cc/hatch. ur workers are dead plus ur nex/cc/hatch, and maybe even some tech. in 8 secs they can bring down a hive. ALL FOR FREE. just watch this shit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVcpbwGZtVE
Any drop is serious if not spotted early, HT drops, Marauder marine drops, DT drops are sick if unscouted.
if protoss scouts zerg drops can easily deal with if
On August 11 2011 05:15 mustache wrote: It's because protoss has many units, single units even, which will make you insta lose at a low level. DTs and void rays for example. Hell these can wreck good players in very small numbers as well.
Apart from that they also have the easiest to control lategame army in the sense that you can often a-move the colossus deathball in every matchup and have quite some success.
And of course the macro is easier because of the frequency you have to build units. i.e you only have to "macro" half as much as the other player. 1 zealot instead of building 2 marines etc. This holds true compared to zerg more than terran i belive
This all makes for a very begginer friendly race, it evens up pretty fast though.
When you get out of bronze, try blinking back hurt stalkers while macroing with warpgates, kk?
Protoss is ridiculously easy to play when you're bad. Bad macro? No problem, add more gateways than you should. Money stays low. Opponent not aggroing? Build colossus deathball, cannot be defeated.
It's once you get into the higher levels that protoss starts to become more balanced with the other races.
Also it takes 3 marines or 5 zerglings to kill 1 zealot.
Its not. In terms of macro I would say terran is the easiest. You can look at a battle and make all the units you need. Protoss needs to go back to a pylon in order to warp That is if you don't have a close proxy pylon >.>
Zerg have it the hardest IMO due to larva inject. The macro mechanics of both terran and toss are a lot more forgiving than missing a larva inject. Also, I never got why terran has mules and call down supply. Oh wtf i missed a depot. Drop supply. Very forgiving...
On August 11 2011 10:47 xHassassin wrote: Protoss is ridiculously easy to play when you're bad. Bad macro? No problem, add more gateways than you should. Money stays low. Opponent not aggroing? Build colossus deathball, cannot be defeated.
It's once you get into the higher levels that protoss starts to become more balanced with the other races.
Also it takes 3 marines or 5 zerglings to kill 1 zealot.
I'm 101% sure that 4 Zerglings beat a Zealot when attack moved (assuming sufficient surface area), and 2 Marines beat a Zealot with micro.
All drops fail if scouted. which can do the most damage in the shortest time. with reaction time and the time it takes to get your army there. i think infestor drops can do the most dmg in the shortest time. also at the least cost (for cost to dmg ratio) and dt drops are a joke. any good player can pick up when a player is going dts early (counting sentries or just flat out ovie scouting it). terran drops are always good so they don't really need discussion (BUU FAME HELLIONS). but even terran drops cant kill your main building and most of ur workers in less than 10 secs. whereas the infestor drop can. ht drops are good but still cant kill important tech like the ITs can.
I actually think that Protoss is probably the easyer race to learn at the lower levels (I'm a protoss player) probably becouse the mechanics are kinda intuitive. But as I've reached my Platinum level I've started practicing Zerg to "coach" my friends and I've found Zerg macro easyer. Once I've learn the inject timing and I've got better with it I've found very comfortable the fact that you can spawn drones, supply and units with basically 1 hotkey watching somewhere else. Whit Protoss I have to "find" a pylon to warp units and use 1 hotkey each for starport, robo and nexus to produce the "non gateway units" and the probes; plus I need to pick a probe to warp pylons and structures more frequently then with Z. For me the hard part about Z wasn't the mechanics but the "When should I drone? When should I spawn units?" so I started working on my scouting. Play zerg helped alot my protoss gameplay. Now I use alot more observers since I've found overlords very usefull when it comes down to scouting and vision of the map and I've improved my hotekey usage since I had to be precise with my injects. But maybe that's just me lol.
On August 11 2011 10:47 xHassassin wrote: Protoss is ridiculously easy to play when you're bad. Bad macro? No problem, add more gateways than you should. Money stays low.
You know, it actually works for every race. If your macro is not good, just make more raxes, more factories or more hatches than you need, and spend all that money. Did I just blow your mind?
I think the reason that Protoss is "easy" at low levels (and oddly, hard at higher levels) is related to the way the races work.
Protoss simply doesn't have as many units, most of the time, at any given point of the game, starting with the part where cost for 1 zealot = 2 marines = 4 zerglings. Obviously other units are a little more comparable between the races, but fewer units = easier control, and easier replacement. When micro is bad, the player who can micro his whole army (10 units) instead of half his army (...10 units) has a small advantage.
On the other hand, at the higher level when the APM and game understanding is there to micro as many units as necessary, Protoss is a little harder because there are simply fewer advantages to be gotten because of the fewer units. SC2 is not as pronounced as BW in this regard, and it's way too early to be making any balance claims based on this observation (or really, to make this observation as anything more than a tentative thing), but it still exists.
As a Terran player anytime I play against a protoss player I feel like they have little to no micro that need to be done in a big engagement while I have to get good emp off that hit all of the chargelot/Archons/Colossus/HTs or it's game over for me while all the protoss need to do is A move and get a couple of storm or FF off and he win the battle easily. I also need to spread my unit after the emp and start kiting the chargelot while running out of range of the colossus so my viking can deal with them. Basically protoss have like 2-3 units that need to be micro during a large battle against terran while the terran has to micro his whole army orelse it's game over for him. You also need to be constantly harassing in TvP as the terran orelse once again you will lose in the late game because protoss can just defend and get up to 3 base up with upgrades and mass warpgate and you will lose.
So I feel like unless you have the multitask of a korean T player, then TvP is a harder matchup for the terran player then the protoss. Protoss have less micro require to be put in the TvP matchup and they are much easier to macro. Now as for the PvZ matchup I heard it's much harder for protoss these days to win so I won't comment much on that except that infestor are too good in my opinion.
On August 11 2011 10:53 Phemtos wrote: As a Terran player anytime I play against a protoss player I feel like they have little to no micro that need to be done in a big engagement while I have to get good emp off that hit all of the chargelot/Archons/Colossus/HTs or it's game over for me while all the protoss need to do is A move and get a couple of storm or FF off and he win the battle easily. I also need to spread my unit after the emp and start kiting the chargelot while running out of range of the colossus so my viking can deal with them. Basically protoss have like 2-3 units that need to be micro during a large battle against terran while the terran has to micro his whole army orelse it's game over for him. You also need to be constantly harassing in TvP as the terran orelse once again you will lose in the late game because protoss can just defend and get up to 3 base up with upgrades and mass warpgate and you will lose.
So I feel like unless you have the multitask of a korean T player, then TvP is a harder matchup for the terran player then the protoss. Protoss have less micro require to be put in the TvP matchup and they are much easier to macro. Now as for the PvZ matchup I heard it's much harder for protoss these days to win so I won't comment much on that except that infestor are too good in my opinion.
On August 11 2011 10:47 xHassassin wrote: Protoss is ridiculously easy to play when you're bad. Bad macro? No problem, add more gateways than you should. Money stays low. Opponent not aggroing? Build colossus deathball, cannot be defeated.
It's once you get into the higher levels that protoss starts to become more balanced with the other races.
Also it takes 3 marines or 5 zerglings to kill 1 zealot.
Bad Terran macro? Add raxes. Bad Zerg macro? Add hatches. Common, what are these arguments?
I'd even go as far as saying it's easier to pump units from a lot of hatches, than robo/gateways. That doesn't make Zerg an easy race.
When you get out of bronze, try blinking back hurt stalkers while macroing with warpgates, kk?
Ok you try queueing up your units nonstop without missing a beat while kiting the protoss army, spreading your bio and getting good emp off all the while microing the vikings so they all focus on the same colossus.
On August 11 2011 10:47 xHassassin wrote: Protoss is ridiculously easy to play when you're bad. Bad macro? No problem, add more gateways than you should. Money stays low.
You know, it actually works for every race. If your macro is not good, just make more raxes, more factories or more hatches than you need, and spend all that money. Did I just blow your mind?
Warp gate macro is much more forgiving than macro from T/Z production facilities.
Chronoboost is the most forgiving macro ability (compared with MULEs and larvae inject). Most protoss can get away with only boosting in early game while Zerg pretty much falls apart after missing a few injects
On August 11 2011 10:47 xHassassin wrote: Protoss is ridiculously easy to play when you're bad. Bad macro? No problem, add more gateways than you should. Money stays low.
You know, it actually works for every race. If your macro is not good, just make more raxes, more factories or more hatches than you need, and spend all that money. Did I just blow your mind?
Warp gate macro is much more forgiving than macro from T/Z production facilities.
Well no. It's less forgiving than T, and comparable to injects for Z.
protoss easy? - 4 gate is easy - massing collosus and 1a is easy - dt and void ray rushes are easy - cannon rush, proxy zealot are easy
know how to these things = low master league protoss = easy?
is protoss really easy? - troop positioning to counter immobility - baby sit army constantly as key units are irreplaceable - how to take a third in most games is a difficult question with lack of map control options - lack of cost-effective harass till late game limits early and mid game strategies - timing playstyle vs zerg, reactive play vs terran, one mistake = rollover and die to terran or zerg takes over map = gg
optional: for after you 1a, hands off keyboard and celebrate!
that's why i play protoss, zerg is way too hard and u can't 1a seige tanks
You trolling?
No warn? Nothing?
Wow.
On topic...
Protoss is not the easiest race. There is no easiest race. The race is only as hard to play as you make it. Sure you could 4gate every game, and that is easy. Just like Terran can 6 rax marine and Zerg and 6 pool. Cheese is cheese, it is 'easy' no matter what race you are.
Saying you can just 1a protoss armies is stupid and ignorant. Try playing above Copper level (yes I mean Copper, the league that was below bronze and doesn't exist anymore) and you will see that without micro-ing your army you lose almost every game.
IMO Terran is the easiest race. A wall you can lower, simple army tactics (stim, stutter), siege tanks, viable drops, MULEs, etc. Terran is obviously the easiest to play, or Blizzard wouldn't have given them out as the free race.
When you get out of bronze, try blinking back hurt stalkers while macroing with warpgates, kk?
Ok you try queueing up your units nonstop without missing a beat while kiting the protoss army, spreading your bio and getting good emp off all the while microing the vikings so they all focus on the same colossus.
Ok this is just ridiculous now. Go back to the b.net forums with this kind of 'HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY EXTENDED LIST OF THINGS I HAVE TO DO TO WIN, HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY SHORTENED LIST OF THING YOU HAVE TO DO TO WIN, SEE HOW MUCH HARDER IT IS FOR ME WITH MY CLEARLY AND OBVIOUSLY BIASED DESCRIPTIONS OF THE GAME' bullshit.
Terran: Hardest to micro (lots of stutter step, use of multi task for drops) , but easiest to macro (mules,call down supply, easy macro while in a battle)
Zerg: Hardest to macro ( constant larva injecting is imperative to win) , easiest to micro (most "a-movey" race IMO. All about positioning)
Protoss: Balanced micro and macro. (Pretty "a-movey" but there are spells to use, unspent chronoboost is not as bad as missing a larva inject and you must look away sometimes to macro during a battle)
On August 11 2011 10:47 xHassassin wrote: Protoss is ridiculously easy to play when you're bad. Bad macro? No problem, add more gateways than you should. Money stays low. Opponent not aggroing? Build colossus deathball, cannot be defeated.
It's once you get into the higher levels that protoss starts to become more balanced with the other races.
Also it takes 3 marines or 5 zerglings to kill 1 zealot.
HAHAHA 3 marine to kill a zealot?! Are you trolling?!
One marine > Zealot, it is called range brooooo. Zealots are sooo slow and can't hit a Marine that is being micro'd by someone with a pulse.
ZvP is hugely favored for Z, Protoss almost has no harrass options, except for Void cheese and phoenixes, which are easily defensible, while the protoss army is really immobile, so most strategies are centered around timing attacks and allins, if a Zerg player studies the match up enough and knows all the timings and what not, it is extremely difficult for a Protoss to win.
Perhaps Protoss is 'easier' to pick up because there's not really much to Micro and more to Macro, but at higher levels it's very difficult to win with Protoss because the skill ceiling is lower than the other races in my opinion.
When you get out of bronze, try blinking back hurt stalkers while macroing with warpgates, kk?
Ok you try queueing up your units nonstop without missing a beat while kiting the protoss army, spreading your bio and getting good emp off all the while microing the vikings so they all focus on the same colossus.
Ok this is just ridiculous now. Go back to the b.net forums with this kind of 'HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY EXTENDED LIST OF THINGS I HAVE TO DO TO WIN, HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY SHORTENED LIST OF THING YOU HAVE TO DO TO WIN, SEE HOW MUCH HARDER IT IS FOR ME WITH MY CLEARLY AND OBVIOUSLY BIASED DESCRIPTIONS OF THE GAME' bullshit.
Seriously. This doesn't belong here.
Alright then please do explain me what else does a protoss need to do beside getting good Storm/FF off to win a big engagement. Go try and A move a max terran army bio against a max protoss army with a good amount of colossus without either of them being micro'd and tell me who win. Terran simply has to work more against HTS/chargelot or Colossus based army to win the battle.
[Race I don't play] is the easiest race in Sc2 because of [unit I have trouble against] and [tactic I have trouble with]. In order to beat [that strategy] I have to [do something really difficult to solve a problem really caused by my bad macro]. It's really ridiculous that [aforementioned race I don't play] gets to [distinct mechanic that is an integral part of game design]. [Race I don't play] is so gay.
On August 11 2011 10:47 xHassassin wrote: Protoss is ridiculously easy to play when you're bad. Bad macro? No problem, add more gateways than you should. Money stays low. Opponent not aggroing? Build colossus deathball, cannot be defeated.
It's once you get into the higher levels that protoss starts to become more balanced with the other races.
Also it takes 3 marines or 5 zerglings to kill 1 zealot.
HAHAHA 3 marine to kill a zealot?! Are you trolling?!
One marine > Zealot, it is called range brooooo. Zealots are sooo slow and can't hit a Marine that is being micro'd by someone with a pulse.
Are you stupid? One zealot will destroy 2 marine with little to no micro required. The zealot will catch up if you try to shoot with your marine.
On August 11 2011 10:47 xHassassin wrote: Protoss is ridiculously easy to play when you're bad. Bad macro? No problem, add more gateways than you should. Money stays low. Opponent not aggroing? Build colossus deathball, cannot be defeated.
It's once you get into the higher levels that protoss starts to become more balanced with the other races.
Also it takes 3 marines or 5 zerglings to kill 1 zealot.
HAHAHA 3 marine to kill a zealot?! Are you trolling?!
One marine > Zealot, it is called range brooooo. Zealots are sooo slow and can't hit a Marine that is being micro'd by someone with a pulse.
Are you stupid? One zealot will destroy 2 marine with little to no micro required. The zealot will catch up if you try to shoot with your marine.
This conversation is dumb. Marines cost 50 minerals, zealots cost 100. Also, protoss dont have reactors on their gateways. A zealot is supposed to kill a couple of marines.
if you go hts first it rapes compare to going collosus first, thats the only thing i see wrong with how protoss play, forces other races to not focus on countering collosus thats why u do huge 3 robbo collosus switch so u produce so much that they cant counter in time but its getting to that point, its rare you see a player in gsl get to 3 bases without being crippled economicly or militarily, its usually why i "cheese" and 1 base since that's when zerg and terran are weakest compare to them "cheesing" when protoss is getting up a 2nd or 3rd base;.......
On August 11 2011 10:47 xHassassin wrote: Protoss is ridiculously easy to play when you're bad. Bad macro? No problem, add more gateways than you should. Money stays low. Opponent not aggroing? Build colossus deathball, cannot be defeated.
It's once you get into the higher levels that protoss starts to become more balanced with the other races.
Also it takes 3 marines or 5 zerglings to kill 1 zealot.
HAHAHA 3 marine to kill a zealot?! Are you trolling?!
One marine > Zealot, it is called range brooooo. Zealots are sooo slow and can't hit a Marine that is being micro'd by someone with a pulse.
Maybe you should do your research before you spout stupid shit. One marine does not beat a zealot because even if you kite perfectly, the zealot is fast enough to get 3 hits off. So please, go back to copper as you said.
When you get out of bronze, try blinking back hurt stalkers while macroing with warpgates, kk?
Ok you try queueing up your units nonstop without missing a beat while kiting the protoss army, spreading your bio and getting good emp off all the while microing the vikings so they all focus on the same colossus.
Ok this is just ridiculous now. Go back to the b.net forums with this kind of 'HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY EXTENDED LIST OF THINGS I HAVE TO DO TO WIN, HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY SHORTENED LIST OF THING YOU HAVE TO DO TO WIN, SEE HOW MUCH HARDER IT IS FOR ME WITH MY CLEARLY AND OBVIOUSLY BIASED DESCRIPTIONS OF THE GAME' bullshit.
Seriously. This doesn't belong here.
Alright then please do explain me what else does a protoss need to do beside getting good Storm/FF off to win a big engagement. Go try and A move a max terran army bio against a max protoss army with a good amount of colossus without either of them being micro'd and tell me who win. Terran simply has to work more against HTS/chargelot or Colossus based army to win the battle.
Why would you ever go heavy bio against a colossus based army anyway? Terran has tanks. The siege unit with the longest ground attack range in the game. You know, those things that kill Colo really damn fast if you know what focus fire is.
When you get out of bronze, try blinking back hurt stalkers while macroing with warpgates, kk?
Ok you try queueing up your units nonstop without missing a beat while kiting the protoss army, spreading your bio and getting good emp off all the while microing the vikings so they all focus on the same colossus.
Ok this is just ridiculous now. Go back to the b.net forums with this kind of 'HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY EXTENDED LIST OF THINGS I HAVE TO DO TO WIN, HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY SHORTENED LIST OF THING YOU HAVE TO DO TO WIN, SEE HOW MUCH HARDER IT IS FOR ME WITH MY CLEARLY AND OBVIOUSLY BIASED DESCRIPTIONS OF THE GAME' bullshit.
Seriously. This doesn't belong here.
Alright then please do explain me what else does a protoss need to do beside getting good Storm/FF off to win a big engagement. Go try and A move a max terran army bio against a max protoss army with a good amount of colossus without either of them being micro'd and tell me who win. Terran simply has to work more against HTS/chargelot or Colossus based army to win the battle.
You know what? NO. I'm not going to explain to you each individual piece of micro that every race has to pull off. Because that's what balance whining children do, on the b.net forums. If you are one of those people, PLEASE, go back there.
Go back a couple of your posts. You say that you have to get off a good EMP or you're dead. Ok. But then you say all protoss has to do is get off good storm and ff...can you seriously not see how fucking blinded you are by bias? Why is that so easy for them but so hard for you? I guarantee you if you played protoss you'd be saying 'all terran has to do is get off one good EMP and my super expensive ht's are useless'.
FYI I play terran 75%, protoss 25%. Please try PvT some time, enjoy losing to MMM a dozen times in a row. Until then shut up about how hard everything is for you.
EDIT: P.S. Stutter step, the bulk of the micro you have to do in TvP, isn't hard, son.
On August 11 2011 10:47 xHassassin wrote: Protoss is ridiculously easy to play when you're bad. Bad macro? No problem, add more gateways than you should. Money stays low. Opponent not aggroing? Build colossus deathball, cannot be defeated.
It's once you get into the higher levels that protoss starts to become more balanced with the other races.
Also it takes 3 marines or 5 zerglings to kill 1 zealot.
HAHAHA 3 marine to kill a zealot?! Are you trolling?!
One marine > Zealot, it is called range brooooo. Zealots are sooo slow and can't hit a Marine that is being micro'd by someone with a pulse.
Are you stupid? One zealot will destroy 2 marine with little to no micro required. The zealot will catch up if you try to shoot with your marine.
This conversation is dumb. Marines cost 50 minerals, zealots cost 100. Also, protoss dont have reactors on their gateways. A zealot is supposed to kill a couple of marines.
I'm just pointing out that it will take you like 30 seconds of perfect micro to kill a zealot with 2 marines.
People actually thought Protoss is easy to play? LOL. How is protoss "A-moving" when forcefields often break of make a battle. It is far harder to pull of sick forcefields that give you a considerable advantage than simple stutter micro as Terran for instance.
People talk about splitting marines, but infact that isn't even required. It is not in anyway a necessity. Terrans are supposed to focus fire their tanks on the banelings. If you have no tanks and are desperately splitting marines to fight the banelings something has gone horribly wrong.
When you get out of bronze, try blinking back hurt stalkers while macroing with warpgates, kk?
Ok you try queueing up your units nonstop without missing a beat while kiting the protoss army, spreading your bio and getting good emp off all the while microing the vikings so they all focus on the same colossus.
Ok this is just ridiculous now. Go back to the b.net forums with this kind of 'HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY EXTENDED LIST OF THINGS I HAVE TO DO TO WIN, HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY SHORTENED LIST OF THING YOU HAVE TO DO TO WIN, SEE HOW MUCH HARDER IT IS FOR ME WITH MY CLEARLY AND OBVIOUSLY BIASED DESCRIPTIONS OF THE GAME' bullshit.
Seriously. This doesn't belong here.
Alright then please do explain me what else does a protoss need to do beside getting good Storm/FF off to win a big engagement. Go try and A move a max terran army bio against a max protoss army with a good amount of colossus without either of them being micro'd and tell me who win. Terran simply has to work more against HTS/chargelot or Colossus based army to win the battle.
Why would you ever go heavy bio against a colossus based army anyway? Terran has tanks. The siege unit with the longest ground attack range in the game. You know, those things that kill Colo really damn fast if you know what focus fire is.
...nah tanks are bad against colossus + gateway armies. Colossus and tanks essentially fill the same role in that match up, the difference is that tanks have to take the time to siege and the colossus can just ball around, making you incredibly immobile in a matchup where mobility is key, if they die they take fucking ages to rebuild, immortals utterly destroy them...there's a reason very very few people use tanks in TvP.
I would also like to point out that while you're here rambling about Protoss being so ez and OP, it's also the most active community in the Strategy section of this forum. Look at all those "PvX" builds, guides that are regularly at the top of discussions: [G] Safe PvP - Defensive 3 Gate [G] QTIP’s guide to defending the 1-1-1 (PvT) [G]HuK! PvT 20food 1gate FE [G] PVP: Robo twilight
All of those aim for the longer game or the safe play.
Now look at some terran TvP guides in this section: [G] StimmedProbe's TvP 1-1-1 All-in/Contain [G] Warden’s TvP 1:1:1 into "Terran Death Ball" [G] (T) 3 racks : Cheesing your way to GM league
Which are all some kind of allinnish timing attacks. So who is abusing the easy race now? Who is aiming to just ez-cheese their way to master? On that topic, Zerg is more of a reactive race and the least proned to cheese imo, except economically (which you must prevent), so there is obviously a lesser amount of pre-made build.
(While I admit that this message is a bit trollish (which actually quite fits this thread honestly), you must admit that there are way less "[G] Super Ultimate PvX free win to GM" threads that there are terran ones...and Geiko the author of the infamous 3rax is actually a protoss player who also make good P guides...)
On August 11 2011 10:47 xHassassin wrote: Protoss is ridiculously easy to play when you're bad. Bad macro? No problem, add more gateways than you should. Money stays low. Opponent not aggroing? Build colossus deathball, cannot be defeated.
It's once you get into the higher levels that protoss starts to become more balanced with the other races.
Also it takes 3 marines or 5 zerglings to kill 1 zealot.
I don't even know where to start here. Let's just keep it concise and say that everything that you've just written is wrong except for the fact that overbuilding gateways compensates for bad macro (though I don't know how this is any different from overbuilding production facilities for any other race).
Acting like an authority when you've got the understanding of the race that someone in silver league does isn't productive.
It's probably more considered the easiest race below masters level, because we all know that all you need to get to diamond is good macro - Protoss has the most simple and streamlined (EZ) macro setup out of the 3 races, not that terran is far behind. You don't have o be any good at toss micro in diamond and below because you just macro better and make a bigger a-move army. It only really matters in masters and above, where players are less seperated by macro and more by micro and decision making.
When you get out of bronze, try blinking back hurt stalkers while macroing with warpgates, kk?
Ok you try queueing up your units nonstop without missing a beat while kiting the protoss army, spreading your bio and getting good emp off all the while microing the vikings so they all focus on the same colossus.
lol @ the bold part
I see you're new, I guess you don't realize that people don't like balance discussion on this website, especially when it is insulting, misguided, small-minded, and retarded.
When you get out of bronze, try blinking back hurt stalkers while macroing with warpgates, kk?
Ok you try queueing up your units nonstop without missing a beat while kiting the protoss army, spreading your bio and getting good emp off all the while microing the vikings so they all focus on the same colossus.
Ok this is just ridiculous now. Go back to the b.net forums with this kind of 'HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY EXTENDED LIST OF THINGS I HAVE TO DO TO WIN, HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY SHORTENED LIST OF THING YOU HAVE TO DO TO WIN, SEE HOW MUCH HARDER IT IS FOR ME WITH MY CLEARLY AND OBVIOUSLY BIASED DESCRIPTIONS OF THE GAME' bullshit.
Seriously. This doesn't belong here.
Alright then please do explain me what else does a protoss need to do beside getting good Storm/FF off to win a big engagement. Go try and A move a max terran army bio against a max protoss army with a good amount of colossus without either of them being micro'd and tell me who win. Terran simply has to work more against HTS/chargelot or Colossus based army to win the battle.
You know what? NO. I'm not going to explain to you each individual piece of micro that every race has to pull off. Because that's what balance whining children do, on the b.net forums. If you are one of those people, PLEASE, go back there.
Go back a couple of your posts. You say that you have to get off a good EMP or you're dead. Ok. But then you say all protoss has to do is get off good storm and ff...can you seriously not see how fucking blinded you are by bias? Why is that so easy for them but so hard for you? I guarantee you if you played protoss you'd be saying 'all terran has to do is get off one good EMP and my super expensive ht's are useless'.
FYI I play terran 75%, protoss 25%. Please try PvT some time, enjoy losing to MMM a dozen times in a row. Until then shut up about how hard everything is for you.
Warpgate is easier to use then having to constantly queue up units into production building without missing a beat, I don't think anyone would argue about that. Alright take out the emp/ff/storm of the battle and tell me which of the two army has more action that need to be done in order to win. A protoss need to put his zealot in the front which is just positionning before the battle and focus the marine with his colossus and focus the vikings with his stalker. A terran need to spread his army so it doesn't get destroyed by the colossus aoe and has to kite the chargelot and focus each colosssus with his vikings. Now tell me which has more action in a battle that need to be done in order for them to win.
Some things i find easier with protoss is not having to deal with rally points that much, reactor/tech lab addons, injects/creep spread and building anything you need with 1 probe. Oh and expansion defense i found the easiest, terran gota decide between an orbital and planetary with missile turrets, zerg gota sack drones for expo defense which is annoying, where protoss can shift click 6 cannons and be set. This all of course has nothing to do with current balance with protoss sucking atm, regardless if they suck or not the macro department is alot easier than the other 2 races.
When you get out of bronze, try blinking back hurt stalkers while macroing with warpgates, kk?
Ok you try queueing up your units nonstop without missing a beat while kiting the protoss army, spreading your bio and getting good emp off all the while microing the vikings so they all focus on the same colossus.
Ok this is just ridiculous now. Go back to the b.net forums with this kind of 'HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY EXTENDED LIST OF THINGS I HAVE TO DO TO WIN, HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY SHORTENED LIST OF THING YOU HAVE TO DO TO WIN, SEE HOW MUCH HARDER IT IS FOR ME WITH MY CLEARLY AND OBVIOUSLY BIASED DESCRIPTIONS OF THE GAME' bullshit.
Seriously. This doesn't belong here.
Alright then please do explain me what else does a protoss need to do beside getting good Storm/FF off to win a big engagement. Go try and A move a max terran army bio against a max protoss army with a good amount of colossus without either of them being micro'd and tell me who win. Terran simply has to work more against HTS/chargelot or Colossus based army to win the battle.
Why would you ever go heavy bio against a colossus based army anyway? Terran has tanks. The siege unit with the longest ground attack range in the game. You know, those things that kill Colo really damn fast if you know what focus fire is.
...nah tanks are bad against colossus + gateway armies. Colossus and tanks essentially fill the same role in that match up, the difference is that tanks have to take the time to siege and the colossus can just ball around, making you incredibly immobile in a matchup where mobility is key, if they die they take fucking ages to rebuild, immortals utterly destroy them...there's a reason very very few people use tanks in TvP.
That's weird. I usually just spread them out and have some vikings around to help snipe colo. And it usually works out for me. It's all in the positioning and making sure you're not unsieged when you engage, IMO.
I play Terran, and I think protoss is easier because of simpler macro. Like, zerg have to spread creep and inject larva constantly. Since protoss units are more expensive, protoss players spend less time making units. I know it's not a lot, but it adds up. Finally, the protoss death ball is so powerful all together, whereas terran and zerg rely a lot more on positioning, so it's easier for protoss to attack. Just my opinion.
Warpgate is easier to use then having to constantly queue up units into production building without missing a beat, I don't think anyone would argue about that.
They're essentially the same thing, the only difference is that you go 4aaaadddd, and the protoss goes double tap 6 (proxy pylon)W, S,click,S,click,S,click,Z,click,Zclick,Zclick. Also, you can't queue warpgates. So you are essentially making an argument out of something petty (my making of units is harder than your making of units), but your petty argument is wrong. Nice work. Go back to Bnet.
When you get out of bronze, try blinking back hurt stalkers while macroing with warpgates, kk?
Ok you try queueing up your units nonstop without missing a beat while kiting the protoss army, spreading your bio and getting good emp off all the while microing the vikings so they all focus on the same colossus.
Ok this is just ridiculous now. Go back to the b.net forums with this kind of 'HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY EXTENDED LIST OF THINGS I HAVE TO DO TO WIN, HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY SHORTENED LIST OF THING YOU HAVE TO DO TO WIN, SEE HOW MUCH HARDER IT IS FOR ME WITH MY CLEARLY AND OBVIOUSLY BIASED DESCRIPTIONS OF THE GAME' bullshit.
Seriously. This doesn't belong here.
Alright then please do explain me what else does a protoss need to do beside getting good Storm/FF off to win a big engagement. Go try and A move a max terran army bio against a max protoss army with a good amount of colossus without either of them being micro'd and tell me who win. Terran simply has to work more against HTS/chargelot or Colossus based army to win the battle.
Why would you ever go heavy bio against a colossus based army anyway? Terran has tanks. The siege unit with the longest ground attack range in the game. You know, those things that kill Colo really damn fast if you know what focus fire is.
...nah tanks are bad against colossus + gateway armies. Colossus and tanks essentially fill the same role in that match up, the difference is that tanks have to take the time to siege and the colossus can just ball around, making you incredibly immobile in a matchup where mobility is key, if they die they take fucking ages to rebuild, immortals utterly destroy them...there's a reason very very few people use tanks in TvP.
That's weird. I usually just spread them out and have some vikings around to help snipe colo. And it usually works out for me. It's all in the positioning and making sure you're not unsieged when you engage, IMO.
That's true, but chargelots and immortals can still do insane dmg when they just charge tanks.
On August 11 2011 11:21 infinitum wrote: I play Terran, and I think protoss is easier because of simpler macro. Like, zerg have to spread creep and inject larva constantly. Since protoss units are more expensive, protoss players spend less time making units. I know it's not a lot, but it adds up. Finally, the protoss death ball is so powerful all together, whereas terran and zerg rely a lot more on positioning, so it's easier for protoss to attack. Just my opinion.
It's always so obvious who didn't play Brood War. If you think that macro in this game is hard or that it's the determinant between which race is easier at high level playing then I don't know what to say.
On August 11 2011 11:14 ZenithM wrote: I would also like to point out that while you're here rambling about Protoss being so ez and OP, it's also the most active community in the Strategy section of this forum. Look at all those "PvX" builds, guides that are regularly at the top of discussions: [G] Safe PvP - Defensive 3 Gate [G] QTIP’s guide to defending the 1-1-1 (PvT) [G]HuK! PvT 20food 1gate FE [G] PVP: Robo twilight
All of those aim for the longer game or the safe play.
Now look at some terran TvP guides in this section: [G] StimmedProbe's TvP 1-1-1 All-in/Contain [G] Warden’s TvP 1:1:1 into "Terran Death Ball" [G] (T) 3 racks : Cheesing your way to GM league
Which are all some kind of allinnish timing attacks. So who is abusing the easy race now? Who is aiming to just ez-cheese their way to master? On that topic, Zerg is more of a reactive race and the least proned to cheese imo, except economically (which you must prevent), so there is obviously a lesser amount of pre-made build.
(While I admit that this message is a bit trollish (which actually quite fits this thread honestly), you must admit that there are way less "[G] Super Ultimate PvX free win to GM" threads that there are terran ones...and Geiko the author of the infamous 3rax is actually a protoss player who also make good P guides...)
You should actually read the guides. PvP is matchup that revolves around low Eco so saying it reaches for the long game is kind of a dumb point . The huk build is pretty much a cute 4gate (cut tons of probes but have nexus if it fails). As for the 111 guides , it's a big issue right now so ofcourse both sides will talk about it. The warden tvp is kind of a macro build , which only allins in specific situations where the Protoss is greedy. The 3rax build is a really dumb build that only kinda works vs Zerg, and shouldn't get any attention but somehow it does.
On August 11 2011 09:23 GoKu` wrote: everyone thinks their race is the hardest to play. That is usually how these topics / ideas get started.
How do you explain the opinions of us random players?
You probably think random is the hardest.
Nah, Zerg is the hardest.
Random is the most fun though ^^
Funny, Zerg is the one race that is underrepresented in the lower leagues (Gold-Bronze). Most Zerg players are either platinum or higher. Statisticly, Zerg players are higher in league and rank standing than protoss and terran. Kinda denies the "Zerg is the hardest race to play"-myth, since if Zerg was so hard to play as you claiming, more zerg players would be stuck in the lower league.
What makes Zerg a hard race? is it the micro-friendly unit compoistions that work well with 1A (unless you bring in some infestors)? is it the simplified macro system where everything is built from one building with stacking larvae that doesnt require you to add production facilities to increase your production (other than the occasional macro hatchery)? i dont think so.
On August 11 2011 11:21 infinitum wrote: I play Terran, and I think protoss is easier because of simpler macro. Like, zerg have to spread creep and inject larva constantly. Since protoss units are more expensive, protoss players spend less time making units. I know it's not a lot, but it adds up. Finally, the protoss death ball is so powerful all together, whereas terran and zerg rely a lot more on positioning, so it's easier for protoss to attack. Just my opinion.
It's always so obvious who didn't play Brood War. If you think that macro in this game is hard or that it's the determinant between which race is easier at high level playing then I don't know what to say.
On August 11 2011 09:23 GoKu` wrote: everyone thinks their race is the hardest to play. That is usually how these topics / ideas get started.
How do you explain the opinions of us random players?
You probably think random is the hardest.
Nah, Zerg is the hardest.
Random is the most fun though ^^
Funny, Zerg is the once race that is underrepresented in the lower leagues (Gold-Bronze). Most Zerg players are either platinum or higher. Statisticly, Zerg players are higher in league and rank standing than protoss and terran. Kinda denies the "Zerg is the hardest race to play"-myth.
anyone who plays zerg is inherently smarter thus gets a higher league. if you dont see this you're a fucking retard
lol he was giving examples of builds to try not the standard builds of the obvious 4 gate.... trying to do things to counter it~~~ please learn how to read intent instead of reading what you want to read
imo, Protoss is the easiest race to hit diamond. Terran is the easiest race to hit masters... especially now. I do think Protoss is under powered in diamond and up leagues, of course also pro level of plays. But the game is pretty balanced I say.
Warpgate is easier to use then having to constantly queue up units into production building without missing a beat, I don't think anyone would argue about that.
They're essentially the same thing, the only difference is that you go 4aaaadddd, and the protoss goes double tap 6 (proxy pylon)W, S,click,S,click,S,click,Z,click,Zclick,Zclick. Also, you can't queue warpgates. So you are essentially making an argument out of something petty (my making of units is harder than your making of units), but your petty argument is wrong. Nice work. Go back to Bnet.
I'm talking during early/mid game because when you reach late game you can queue 2-3 units on the same production facility and not have it hurt your economy but during the early/mid game you don't want to queue more then 1 unit per building usually unless you get supplied blocked so doing that while never missing a beat is in my opinion a bit harder then just staring at the bottom right of your screen to see when your cooldown for instant units is up. The only thing protoss need to queue in PvT is worth 6 supply.
20.000 games beat a couple of hundreds when it comes to statistics, any day.
Those games were from ladder?
The ladder that includes leagues like bronze/silver/gold/plat/low-mid masters?
How many players tell you ladder is for trying out different builds, etc.
I've watched numerous streams, where the streamer is talking about how he should be taking ladder more serious, etc.
Bring me tournament statistics where all races have same number of players, with the same level of skill(or something very close), that shows Protoss struggling. Please, please show me.
There are a very small number of Protoss' in tournaments recently, and when they don't do well, people don't even take into consideration all the other factors that make a genuine stat sheet.
People who are going to argue with their only piece of information is a stat sheet with SOOOOOOOOOOO many flaws, need to take a basic stat class, and learn some things.
On August 11 2011 09:08 Shooks wrote: Another thread with bronze level players commenting, sigh... People talking about Protoss macro as if it's easy when we're the only race that can't really build units while micro'ing, people talking about how it's also easy to make gates, what? Terran have to make rax's, not much difference...
Point is, this thread is pointless, I wasn't lying when I said bronze level players, it's quite obvious the majority of the people posting have never even played at a high level if they think Protoss is A-moving race when that will get demolished by a MMM army with emp or an infestor based zerg army, Protoss is the most unforgiving race in terms of micro.
It also depends of which matchups, TvP is by far the most 1 dimensional matchup in the game, most top Terrans agree that it's a simple matchup for Terran.
With that sentence i can now conclude that you are one of those bronze players you speak of. Toss has the toughest units in the entire game. As a zerg an entire control group of lings get roasted in a second to hellions if you look away at the wrong moment, an infinite number of mutas gets destroyed to a thor volley if you missmicro, huge groups of marines perish to two fungals. Nothing in a Toss army dies that quickly to anything.
Now i play random so i don't care which race is easiest or hardest, but one thing is definitely true, as a toss you don't have to babysit your units like you have to with Z/T.
Not being able to admit Protoss is the most unforgiving race blows my mind. I mean watching Yigioh play Thorzain the other day, can you honestly say that you need to baby sit units as zerg? Infact it's the complete opposite, the only units you need to babysit is the Mutas, and it's a fast flying units....Not exactly that hard if you have good APM. Like shit, I've vsed Zerg's that have just right clicked my Nexus with a bunch of roaches and lose them all then be able to make a ton more since there so cheap
Since when is getting all your lings roasted gonna cost you the game, it can in the early game, but so does missing an FF on the ramp, durp.
Saying Protoss units are tough is stupid, we get caught off guard and get fungal'd and we can lose them game right there, we get an Obs sniped and cloaked ghosts emp the sentrys and HTs, we lose, we get our collosi out of position and get sniped by vikings we lose, we miss FFs we lose, we have an HT based army against Terran and most of them get EMP'd we lose, the list goes on and on.
I am not saying that Protoss is easier (I think this thread is a minefield really), but come on, let's be fair here. You're saying P loses if P gets EMP'd, misses FFs and so on. Sure that's true. But that isn't a fair basis for saying that P is the most unforgiving race. You're putting up a properly micro'd army against a non-micro'd army. No matter what the matchup, assuming comparable armies, the army with proper micro will always win against the army with no micro (I include setting up proper defensive positions, eg tank seiging, as micro). T and Z would lose too if their army gets stormed and feedbacked while they aren't watching.
I love when zergs say protoss is easy, then i ask if you want to switch races and I still beat them. I think at high levels all races are equally hard to play. I do agree that it takes protoss the least amount of time from bronze -> diamond imo
Protoss is not the easiest race. There is no easiest race. The race is only as hard to play as you make it. Sure you could 4gate every game, and that is easy. Just like Terran can 6 rax marine and Zerg and 6 pool. Cheese is cheese, it is 'easy' no matter what race you are.
Saying you can just 1a protoss armies is stupid and ignorant. Try playing above Copper level (yes I mean Copper, the league that was below bronze and doesn't exist anymore) and you will see that without micro-ing your army you lose almost every game.
IMO Terran is the easiest race. A wall you can lower, simple army tactics (stim, stutter), siege tanks, viable drops, MULEs, etc. Terran is obviously the easiest to play, or Blizzard wouldn't have given them out as the free race.
On August 11 2011 09:23 GoKu` wrote: everyone thinks their race is the hardest to play. That is usually how these topics / ideas get started.
How do you explain the opinions of us random players?
You probably think random is the hardest.
Nah, Zerg is the hardest.
Random is the most fun though ^^
Funny, Zerg is the once race that is underrepresented in the lower leagues (Gold-Bronze). Most Zerg players are either platinum or higher. Statisticly, Zerg players are higher in league and rank standing than protoss and terran. Kinda denies the "Zerg is the hardest race to play"-myth.
anyone who plays zerg is inherently smarter thus gets a higher league. if you dont see this you're a fucking retard
I agree. if you dont see why zerg is the best race to play at the moment, you are pretty stupid. Why would anyone play protoss, lol?
When you get out of bronze, try blinking back hurt stalkers while macroing with warpgates, kk?
Ok you try queueing up your units nonstop without missing a beat while kiting the protoss army, spreading your bio and getting good emp off all the while microing the vikings so they all focus on the same colossus.
Ok this is just ridiculous now. Go back to the b.net forums with this kind of 'HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY EXTENDED LIST OF THINGS I HAVE TO DO TO WIN, HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY SHORTENED LIST OF THING YOU HAVE TO DO TO WIN, SEE HOW MUCH HARDER IT IS FOR ME WITH MY CLEARLY AND OBVIOUSLY BIASED DESCRIPTIONS OF THE GAME' bullshit.
Seriously. This doesn't belong here.
Alright then please do explain me what else does a protoss need to do beside getting good Storm/FF off to win a big engagement. Go try and A move a max terran army bio against a max protoss army with a good amount of colossus without either of them being micro'd and tell me who win. Terran simply has to work more against HTS/chargelot or Colossus based army to win the battle.
Why would you ever go heavy bio against a colossus based army anyway? Terran has tanks. The siege unit with the longest ground attack range in the game. You know, those things that kill Colo really damn fast if you know what focus fire is.
...nah tanks are bad against colossus + gateway armies. Colossus and tanks essentially fill the same role in that match up, the difference is that tanks have to take the time to siege and the colossus can just ball around, making you incredibly immobile in a matchup where mobility is key, if they die they take fucking ages to rebuild, immortals utterly destroy them...there's a reason very very few people use tanks in TvP.
That's weird. I usually just spread them out and have some vikings around to help snipe colo. And it usually works out for me. It's all in the positioning and making sure you're not unsieged when you engage, IMO.
That's true, but chargelots and immortals can still do insane dmg when they just charge tanks.
I totally agree, dude. I play P/Z but I used to be a random. But if you have a good stutter step micro, you can at least keep the chargelots/immorts back until your tanks/vikings snipe some colo.
In all honesty, I kinda try to treat colo like banelings on crack. (Marine splits, tank spread, good stim micro, etc)
But to stay on topic, if you've played P enough and then you switched to Z or T, then playing XvP is so easy.
20.000 games beat a couple of hundreds when it comes to statistics, any day.
Those games were from ladder?
The ladder that includes leagues like bronze/silver/gold/plat/low-mid masters?
How many players tell you ladder is for trying out different builds, etc.
I've watched numerous streams, where the streamer is talking about how he should be taking ladder more serious, etc.
Bring me tournament statistics where all races have same number of players, with the same level of skill(or something very close), that shows Protoss struggling. Please, please show me.
There are a very small number of Protoss' in tournaments recently, and when they don't do well, people don't even take into consideration all the other factors that make a genuine stat sheet.
People who are going to argue with their only piece of information is a stat sheet with SOOOOOOOOOOO many flaws, need to take a basic stat class, and learn some things.
That is tournament results. You can look for yourself what tournaments they put in there. It's by far the most valid statistics we have. -.-
see if this was bw, i would have said that we have the tankiest units, and thus required the least amount of micro to use effectively (hence 1a2a3a). however, given that is no longer the case, i cant really say why...
On August 11 2011 11:28 chesshaha wrote: imo, Protoss is the easiest race to hit diamond. Terran is the easiest race to hit masters... especially now. I do think Protoss is under powered in diamond and up leagues, of course also pro level of plays. But the game is pretty balanced I say.
statisticly, Zerg has less players in gold-bronze and more in platinum-grand master. kinda points in the opposite direction
When you get out of bronze, try blinking back hurt stalkers while macroing with warpgates, kk?
Ok you try queueing up your units nonstop without missing a beat while kiting the protoss army, spreading your bio and getting good emp off all the while microing the vikings so they all focus on the same colossus.
Ok this is just ridiculous now. Go back to the b.net forums with this kind of 'HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY EXTENDED LIST OF THINGS I HAVE TO DO TO WIN, HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY SHORTENED LIST OF THING YOU HAVE TO DO TO WIN, SEE HOW MUCH HARDER IT IS FOR ME WITH MY CLEARLY AND OBVIOUSLY BIASED DESCRIPTIONS OF THE GAME' bullshit.
Seriously. This doesn't belong here.
Alright then please do explain me what else does a protoss need to do beside getting good Storm/FF off to win a big engagement. Go try and A move a max terran army bio against a max protoss army with a good amount of colossus without either of them being micro'd and tell me who win. Terran simply has to work more against HTS/chargelot or Colossus based army to win the battle.
You know what? NO. I'm not going to explain to you each individual piece of micro that every race has to pull off. Because that's what balance whining children do, on the b.net forums. If you are one of those people, PLEASE, go back there.
Go back a couple of your posts. You say that you have to get off a good EMP or you're dead. Ok. But then you say all protoss has to do is get off good storm and ff...can you seriously not see how fucking blinded you are by bias? Why is that so easy for them but so hard for you? I guarantee you if you played protoss you'd be saying 'all terran has to do is get off one good EMP and my super expensive ht's are useless'.
FYI I play terran 75%, protoss 25%. Please try PvT some time, enjoy losing to MMM a dozen times in a row. Until then shut up about how hard everything is for you.
Warpgate is easier to use then having to constantly queue up units into production building without missing a beat, I don't think anyone would argue about that. Alright take out the emp/ff/storm of the battle and tell me which of the two army has more action that need to be done in order to win. A protoss need to put his zealot in the front which is just positionning before the battle and focus the marine with his colossus and focus the vikings with his stalker. A terran need to spread his army so it doesn't get destroyed by the colossus aoe and has to kite the chargelot and focus each colosssus with his vikings. Now tell me which has more action in a battle that need to be done in order for them to win.
Lrn2read, I already said I'm not getting pulled into a pointless and retarded argument about listing minor micro requirements and comparing who has the most.
One thing I will argue is that warpgate is not easier to use. It is so, so easy to go 5aaaaaaddddddgg during a battle. It is much harder to take your eyes off the battle completely, go to a pylon, and warp in the different units you need. You can macro as terran without thinking about it, enough practise and it becomes reflex. But no matter how good you are, with protoss you have to refocus your attention to warp in units.
On August 11 2011 09:08 Shooks wrote: Another thread with bronze level players commenting, sigh... People talking about Protoss macro as if it's easy when we're the only race that can't really build units while micro'ing, people talking about how it's also easy to make gates, what? Terran have to make rax's, not much difference...
Point is, this thread is pointless, I wasn't lying when I said bronze level players, it's quite obvious the majority of the people posting have never even played at a high level if they think Protoss is A-moving race when that will get demolished by a MMM army with emp or an infestor based zerg army, Protoss is the most unforgiving race in terms of micro.
It also depends of which matchups, TvP is by far the most 1 dimensional matchup in the game, most top Terrans agree that it's a simple matchup for Terran.
With that sentence i can now conclude that you are one of those bronze players you speak of. Toss has the toughest units in the entire game. As a zerg an entire control group of lings get roasted in a second to hellions if you look away at the wrong moment, an infinite number of mutas gets destroyed to a thor volley if you missmicro, huge groups of marines perish to two fungals. Nothing in a Toss army dies that quickly to anything.
Now i play random so i don't care which race is easiest or hardest, but one thing is definitely true, as a toss you don't have to babysit your units like you have to with Z/T.
Not being able to admit Protoss is the most unforgiving race blows my mind. I mean watching Yigioh play Thorzain the other day, can you honestly say that you need to baby sit units as zerg? Infact it's the complete opposite, the only units you need to babysit is the Mutas, and it's a fast flying units....Not exactly that hard if you have good APM. Like shit, I've vsed Zerg's that have just right clicked my Nexus with a bunch of roaches and lose them all then be able to make a ton more since there so cheap
Since when is getting all your lings roasted gonna cost you the game, it can in the early game, but so does missing an FF on the ramp, durp.
Saying Protoss units are tough is stupid, we get caught off guard and get fungal'd and we can lose them game right there, we get an Obs sniped and cloaked ghosts emp the sentrys and HTs, we lose, we get our collosi out of position and get sniped by vikings we lose, we miss FFs we lose, we have an HT based army against Terran and most of them get EMP'd we lose, the list goes on and on.
I am not saying that Protoss is easier (I think this thread is a minefield really), but come on, let's be fair here. You're saying P loses if P gets EMP'd, misses FFs and so on. Sure that's true. But that isn't a fair basis for saying that P is the most unforgiving race. You're putting up a properly micro'd army against a non-micro'd army. No matter what the matchup, assuming comparable armies, the army with proper micro will always win against the army with no micro (I include setting up proper defensive positions, eg tank seiging, as micro). T and Z would lose too if their army gets stormed and feedbacked while they aren't watching.
Except that once again, it is far more difficult to set up the right forcefields and storms then it is to simply stutter step backwards as your vikings slaughter the colossus. Notice how no pro ever messes up their stutter step and easily crushes the protoss army while the protoss pros storm their own zealots due to chasing stutter step, miss forcefields, etc all the time. Even from top caliber code S players. The protoss player only can win if he caught the terran pinned against the wall or he hits insanely good forcefields without getting his sentries EMP'ed (almost impossible).
I also LOL at people saying protoss macro is easier. How is it easier exactly? Both P and T build units from their structures. Protoss has chrono and T has mule/scans (which I think is better). Both terran and protoss make their units from basically 3 structures: stargate/port, fac/robo/, gateway/rax. They basically identical in macro skill.
i dont care if people think toss is the easiest race, but i think terran players should understand that their race is the most ridiculous right now
1. blue flame hellions. 2. flying dts 3. fkin dropship healers 4. MULEs. i once watched tourney or something.. and the terran killed off most of his SCVs late game and started massing OCs. the commentators said it was a legit tactic.. 'MULE economy' seriously. i face palmed at how ridiculous this race is when i heard those 2 words.
no other race has such a diverse use for their army aside from terran. hopefully the expansions fix this.
Average APM by race from 1128 replays at semi-pro and pro level at MLG Columbus 2011: APM isn't a very important measure, but still I thought this could be interesting stats to check out.
Keep in mind though, that landing a perfect storm, or perfect forcefields, counts very little to the number of actions, and yet, it's more difficult than building 40 lings/rines and running them around.
20.000 games beat a couple of hundreds when it comes to statistics, any day.
Those games were from ladder?
The ladder that includes leagues like bronze/silver/gold/plat/low-mid masters?
How many players tell you ladder is for trying out different builds, etc.
I've watched numerous streams, where the streamer is talking about how he should be taking ladder more serious, etc.
Bring me tournament statistics where all races have same number of players, with the same level of skill(or something very close), that shows Protoss struggling. Please, please show me.
There are a very small number of Protoss' in tournaments recently, and when they don't do well, people don't even take into consideration all the other factors that make a genuine stat sheet.
People who are going to argue with their only piece of information is a stat sheet with SOOOOOOOOOOO many flaws, need to take a basic stat class, and learn some things.
It's by far the most valid statistics we have. -.-
What don't you understand about statistics? Like, seriously, do I need to explain this again?
WHERE IS THE NUMBER OF PLAYERS FOR EACH RACE?
Not only that, but some of those stats have 2v2 games from EGMC, LMFAO!!!!
On August 11 2011 09:08 Shooks wrote: Another thread with bronze level players commenting, sigh... People talking about Protoss macro as if it's easy when we're the only race that can't really build units while micro'ing, people talking about how it's also easy to make gates, what? Terran have to make rax's, not much difference...
Point is, this thread is pointless, I wasn't lying when I said bronze level players, it's quite obvious the majority of the people posting have never even played at a high level if they think Protoss is A-moving race when that will get demolished by a MMM army with emp or an infestor based zerg army, Protoss is the most unforgiving race in terms of micro.
It also depends of which matchups, TvP is by far the most 1 dimensional matchup in the game, most top Terrans agree that it's a simple matchup for Terran.
With that sentence i can now conclude that you are one of those bronze players you speak of. Toss has the toughest units in the entire game. As a zerg an entire control group of lings get roasted in a second to hellions if you look away at the wrong moment, an infinite number of mutas gets destroyed to a thor volley if you missmicro, huge groups of marines perish to two fungals. Nothing in a Toss army dies that quickly to anything.
Now i play random so i don't care which race is easiest or hardest, but one thing is definitely true, as a toss you don't have to babysit your units like you have to with Z/T.
Not being able to admit Protoss is the most unforgiving race blows my mind. I mean watching Yigioh play Thorzain the other day, can you honestly say that you need to baby sit units as zerg? Infact it's the complete opposite, the only units you need to babysit is the Mutas, and it's a fast flying units....Not exactly that hard if you have good APM. Like shit, I've vsed Zerg's that have just right clicked my Nexus with a bunch of roaches and lose them all then be able to make a ton more since there so cheap
Since when is getting all your lings roasted gonna cost you the game, it can in the early game, but so does missing an FF on the ramp, durp.
Saying Protoss units are tough is stupid, we get caught off guard and get fungal'd and we can lose them game right there, we get an Obs sniped and cloaked ghosts emp the sentrys and HTs, we lose, we get our collosi out of position and get sniped by vikings we lose, we miss FFs we lose, we have an HT based army against Terran and most of them get EMP'd we lose, the list goes on and on.
I am not saying that Protoss is easier (I think this thread is a minefield really), but come on, let's be fair here. You're saying P loses if P gets EMP'd, misses FFs and so on. Sure that's true. But that isn't a fair basis for saying that P is the most unforgiving race. You're putting up a properly micro'd army against a non-micro'd army. No matter what the matchup, assuming comparable armies, the army with proper micro will always win against the army with no micro (I include setting up proper defensive positions, eg tank seiging, as micro). T and Z would lose too if their army gets stormed and feedbacked while they aren't watching.
I also LOL at people saying protoss macro is easier. How is it easier exactly? Both P and T build units from their structures. Protoss has chrono and T has mule/scans (which I think is better). Both terran and protoss make their units from basically 3 structures: stargate/port, fac/robo/, gateway/rax. They basically identical in macro skill.
Yep, and Zerg builds everything from 1 building and therefor doesnt need to add new facilities to increase production. Also, its cool if you slack on your macro for a minute because your larvae stacks up.
On August 11 2011 11:38 hiturheartx wrote: i dont care if people think toss is the easiest race, but i think terran players should understand that their race is the most ridiculous right now
1. blue flame hellions. 2. flying dts 3. fkin dropship healers 4. MULEs. i once watched tourney or something.. and the terran killed off most of his SCVs late game and started massing OCs. the commentators said it was a legit tactic.. 'MULE economy' seriously. i face palmed at how ridiculous this race is when i heard those 2 words.
Terrans should also think about the 111, a very limited skill all-in that is one of the very few strats (or maybe only one in the TvP matchup) that is still extremely difficult to stop even when scouted early and prepared for. Tons of debate on how to stop it and top pros collapse to it constantly despite likely training like hell for it.
The amount of stupidity shown by some people truly astounds me. I am honestly surprised by how dense, self-centered, self-serving, and overly biased people can be. It is with absolute and complete lies to oneself that some of these things can be believed.
Believe what is real, not what is spoon fed to you, convenient, or simple. That is all.
On August 11 2011 11:38 hiturheartx wrote: i dont care if people think toss is the easiest race, but i think terran players should understand that their race is the most ridiculous right now
1. blue flame hellions. 2. flying dts 3. fkin dropship healers 4. MULEs. i once watched tourney or something.. and the terran killed off most of his SCVs late game and started massing OCs. the commentators said it was a legit tactic.. 'MULE economy' seriously. i face palmed at how ridiculous this race is when i heard those 2 words.
I remember Kennigit once saying on SOTG that he'd like to show people what TL would be like sans moderation for a while to show them why moderation is so strict here.
On August 11 2011 09:08 Shooks wrote: Another thread with bronze level players commenting, sigh... People talking about Protoss macro as if it's easy when we're the only race that can't really build units while micro'ing, people talking about how it's also easy to make gates, what? Terran have to make rax's, not much difference...
Point is, this thread is pointless, I wasn't lying when I said bronze level players, it's quite obvious the majority of the people posting have never even played at a high level if they think Protoss is A-moving race when that will get demolished by a MMM army with emp or an infestor based zerg army, Protoss is the most unforgiving race in terms of micro.
It also depends of which matchups, TvP is by far the most 1 dimensional matchup in the game, most top Terrans agree that it's a simple matchup for Terran.
And the most forgiving race in terms of macro after micro goes to shit.
On August 11 2011 11:14 ZenithM wrote: I would also like to point out that while you're here rambling about Protoss being so ez and OP, it's also the most active community in the Strategy section of this forum. Look at all those "PvX" builds, guides that are regularly at the top of discussions: [G] Safe PvP - Defensive 3 Gate [G] QTIP’s guide to defending the 1-1-1 (PvT) [G]HuK! PvT 20food 1gate FE [G] PVP: Robo twilight
All of those aim for the longer game or the safe play.
Now look at some terran TvP guides in this section: [G] StimmedProbe's TvP 1-1-1 All-in/Contain [G] Warden’s TvP 1:1:1 into "Terran Death Ball" [G] (T) 3 racks : Cheesing your way to GM league
Which are all some kind of allinnish timing attacks. So who is abusing the easy race now? Who is aiming to just ez-cheese their way to master? On that topic, Zerg is more of a reactive race and the least proned to cheese imo, except economically (which you must prevent), so there is obviously a lesser amount of pre-made build.
(While I admit that this message is a bit trollish (which actually quite fits this thread honestly), you must admit that there are way less "[G] Super Ultimate PvX free win to GM" threads that there are terran ones...and Geiko the author of the infamous 3rax is actually a protoss player who also make good P guides...)
You should actually read the guides. PvP is matchup that revolves around low Eco so saying it reaches for the long game is kind of a dumb point . The huk build is pretty much a cute 4gate (cut tons of probes but have nexus if it fails). As for the 111 guides , it's a big issue right now so ofcourse both sides will talk about it. The warden tvp is kind of a macro build , which only allins in specific situations where the Protoss is greedy. The 3rax build is a really dumb build that only kinda works vs Zerg, and shouldn't get any attention but somehow it does.
I read all those guides, obviously. Would I try to make a point off of it otherwise? PvP is a short matchup, ask all protoss players, "the longer game" usually means the post 4gate phase, and that's about it. Sorry if we don't "enjoy" a 50 minutes siege fest as our mirror matchup. HuK's build is not a 4gate, you should actually read this guide. It doesn't even build 4 gates, and it doesn't "fail", it's a fast expand build with pressure, get your facts straight. For all those T builds, I don't care that much, terrans have the tendency to always find P greedy and all in to "punish it" anyway (maybe punish them just to even think about playing the game). Just look at the 1-1-1: you can say "Ok, I killed 2 probes with my banshee and he's expanding, I can now all in lolol" or "Ok, he's on one base and he's teching, he won't be able to hold the siege contain and I can all in lolol". But at the end of the day, it isn't punishing Protoss for playing greedy, it's more like "This build is insanely hard to stop atm, so might as well have an easy win there."
But I can agree with you that my point was not thebest (I said so in fact), you could have just said that I was kinda picking the most gimmicky Terran builds I could find and just overlooking other interesting TvZ or TvT builds.
It has to do with the fact that the death ball is a viable strategy in any matchup (PvX). Whereas as zerg or terran sometimes we cannot just build a huge ball and bust the opponent's base (we have to drop, harras, gain map control, leap frog, spread our units, and what not). That is not to say that protoss doesn't require any micro or multi tasking, it is just to say that they get away with less of it (even if sometimes they can micro as much as other races).
We all know Terran is the easiest race, I just came in here to shut down all the Protoss whiners who don't know anything about statistics, and how flawed the monthly stats are.
On August 11 2011 11:38 hiturheartx wrote: i dont care if people think toss is the easiest race, but i think terran players should understand that their race is the most ridiculous right now
1. blue flame hellions. 2. flying dts 3. fkin dropship healers 4. MULEs. i once watched tourney or something.. and the terran killed off most of his SCVs late game and started massing OCs. the commentators said it was a legit tactic.. 'MULE economy' seriously. i face palmed at how ridiculous this race is when i heard those 2 words.
I remember Kennigit once saying on SOTG that he'd like to show people what TL would be like sans moderation for a while to show them why moderation is so strict here.
Is this that? It's time to nuke this thread.
oh my, people actually bring up valid points and obvious flaws in the game balance? hit them with the ban hammer! show no mercy. NOONE points out obvious game design flaws on my watch!
care to explain to me how terran having flying DTs with range that actually works well as an addition to your army DESPITE your opponent having detection (unlike DTS) makes any sense? or are you just gonna sidestep any kind of argument by making another "peole wo discuss balance r st00pid the game is fine stfu"-post?
20.000 games beat a couple of hundreds when it comes to statistics, any day.
Those games were from ladder?
The ladder that includes leagues like bronze/silver/gold/plat/low-mid masters?
How many players tell you ladder is for trying out different builds, etc.
I've watched numerous streams, where the streamer is talking about how he should be taking ladder more serious, etc.
Bring me tournament statistics where all races have same number of players, with the same level of skill(or something very close), that shows Protoss struggling. Please, please show me.
There are a very small number of Protoss' in tournaments recently, and when they don't do well, people don't even take into consideration all the other factors that make a genuine stat sheet.
People who are going to argue with their only piece of information is a stat sheet with SOOOOOOOOOOO many flaws, need to take a basic stat class, and learn some things.
It's by far the most valid statistics we have. -.-
What don't you understand about statistics? Like, seriously, do I need to explain this again?
WHERE IS THE NUMBER OF PLAYERS FOR EACH RACE?
Not only that, but some of those stats have 2v2 games from EGMC, LMFAO!!!!
613 Terrans, 578 Zergs and 611 Protosses make up the statistics. And no, 2v2 games are obviously not included. How are you gonna get a XvX match-up in a 2v2?
I feel this is the same in SC2 as well. This is because they have a good all-purpose unit that can be easily massed (e.g. stalker). They also have a lot of early game all-in options. The reason for their current state in pro-levels is that they've been busy all-inning rather than improving. Once the other races learned how to defeat them protosses struggle to find answers.
On August 11 2011 11:45 Vague wrote: It has to do with the fact that the death ball is a viable strategy in any matchup (PvX). Whereas as zerg or terran sometimes we cannot just build a huge ball and bust the opponent's base (we have to drop, harras, gain map control, leap frog, spread our units, and what not). That is not to say that protoss doesn't require any micro or multi tasking, it is just to say that they get away with less of it (even if sometimes they can micro as much as other races).
Technically for zerg, if you let a zerg just sit there all the way till the endgame he can just hurl units at you until you drop dead from the pressure. You can't let Zerg do whatever he wants or you will almost certainly lose against a component player.
Terrans are usually the ones that are pressured to go on the offensive in TvP because they are the ones who dictate the pace of the matchup.
On August 11 2011 11:50 Azzur wrote: In BW, protoss was definitely the easiest race.
I feel this is the same in SC2 as well. This is because they have a good all-purpose unit that can be easily massed (e.g. stalker). They also have a lot of early game all-in options. The reason for their current state in pro-levels is that they've been busy all-inning rather than improving. Once the other races learned how to defeat them protosses struggle to find answers.
lmao. Mass stalker strat. I should try that. 100% win ratio here I come.
(btw, just to tell you from what I know terran has the only valid mass strat. Which is mass marine against protoss with constant aggression).
On August 11 2011 11:38 hiturheartx wrote: i dont care if people think toss is the easiest race, but i think terran players should understand that their race is the most ridiculous right now
1. blue flame hellions. 2. flying dts 3. fkin dropship healers 4. MULEs. i once watched tourney or something.. and the terran killed off most of his SCVs late game and started massing OCs. the commentators said it was a legit tactic.. 'MULE economy' seriously. i face palmed at how ridiculous this race is when i heard those 2 words.
I remember Kennigit once saying on SOTG that he'd like to show people what TL would be like sans moderation for a while to show them why moderation is so strict here.
Is this that? It's time to nuke this thread.
oh my, people actually bring up valid points and obvious flaws in the game balance? hit them with the ban hammer! show no mercy. NOONE points out obvious game design flaws on my watch!
care to explain to me how terran having flying DTs with range that actually works well as an addition to your army DESPITE your opponent having detection (unlike DTS) makes any sense? or are you just gonna sidestep any kind of argument by making another "peole wo discuss balance r st00pid the game is fine stfu"-post?
yeah flying DTs that don't 1 shot workers, needs energy to stay cloaked, and a upgrade to become invisible. what valid points these are!
When you get out of bronze, try blinking back hurt stalkers while macroing with warpgates, kk?
Ok you try queueing up your units nonstop without missing a beat while kiting the protoss army, spreading your bio and getting good emp off all the while microing the vikings so they all focus on the same colossus.
Ok this is just ridiculous now. Go back to the b.net forums with this kind of 'HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY EXTENDED LIST OF THINGS I HAVE TO DO TO WIN, HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY SHORTENED LIST OF THING YOU HAVE TO DO TO WIN, SEE HOW MUCH HARDER IT IS FOR ME WITH MY CLEARLY AND OBVIOUSLY BIASED DESCRIPTIONS OF THE GAME' bullshit.
Seriously. This doesn't belong here.
Alright then please do explain me what else does a protoss need to do beside getting good Storm/FF off to win a big engagement. Go try and A move a max terran army bio against a max protoss army with a good amount of colossus without either of them being micro'd and tell me who win. Terran simply has to work more against HTS/chargelot or Colossus based army to win the battle.
You know what? NO. I'm not going to explain to you each individual piece of micro that every race has to pull off. Because that's what balance whining children do, on the b.net forums. If you are one of those people, PLEASE, go back there.
Go back a couple of your posts. You say that you have to get off a good EMP or you're dead. Ok. But then you say all protoss has to do is get off good storm and ff...can you seriously not see how fucking blinded you are by bias? Why is that so easy for them but so hard for you? I guarantee you if you played protoss you'd be saying 'all terran has to do is get off one good EMP and my super expensive ht's are useless'.
FYI I play terran 75%, protoss 25%. Please try PvT some time, enjoy losing to MMM a dozen times in a row. Until then shut up about how hard everything is for you.
Warpgate is easier to use then having to constantly queue up units into production building without missing a beat, I don't think anyone would argue about that. Alright take out the emp/ff/storm of the battle and tell me which of the two army has more action that need to be done in order to win. A protoss need to put his zealot in the front which is just positionning before the battle and focus the marine with his colossus and focus the vikings with his stalker. A terran need to spread his army so it doesn't get destroyed by the colossus aoe and has to kite the chargelot and focus each colosssus with his vikings. Now tell me which has more action in a battle that need to be done in order for them to win.
Lrn2read, I already said I'm not getting pulled into a pointless and retarded argument about listing minor micro requirements and comparing who has the most.
One thing I will argue is that warpgate is not easier to use. It is so, so easy to go 5aaaaaaddddddgg during a battle. It is much harder to take your eyes off the battle completely, go to a pylon, and warp in the different units you need. You can macro as terran without thinking about it, enough practise and it becomes reflex. But no matter how good you are, with protoss you have to refocus your attention to warp in units.
Ya but since you barely need to Micro in most battle PvP aside it's not that big of a deal.
I think people mostly hate protoss just because of collossi and sentries. There are now styles that do well vs collossi compositions but the hate has not dissipated and now anything strong that the toss has is subject to hate and "ezmode" scrutiny.
I wonder though out of the 3 races, toss is the only one that relies on an active spell to survive early game pressure and they're accused of being the 1a race. Coll and voidray composition when it first came out was definitely 1a but I don't feel like thats true anymore because the game evolved at most levels where the opponent will exploit protoss' passive play.
On August 11 2011 11:38 figq wrote: Average APM by race from 1128 replays at semi-pro and pro level at MLG Columbus 2011: APM isn't a very important measure, but still I thought this could be interesting stats to check out.
Keep in mind though, that landing a perfect storm, or perfect forcefields, counts very little to the number of actions, and yet, it's more difficult than building 40 lings/rines and running them around.
Terran and Zerg have more apm because the action when producing units are taking into count when u press W and warping units that doest count. but if protoss as to manually produce units apm will be arround 190-220 for protoss.
Plus Terran and Zerg are always moving arround their units while protoss need to play defensive = less apm.
Protoss is considered the easiest because it's balanced between micro and macro, zerg is hard because of it's macro, terran is hard because of it's micro protoss is easy because it's a really nice balance between the two.
apm is the biggest statisticaly potential number in the game, you can be having 300 apm but not doing what you need to be doing at that moment to win as opposed to someone with 150 apm doing exactly what they need to do and efficiently... apm is as good as your game awareness is.
On August 11 2011 11:38 hiturheartx wrote: i dont care if people think toss is the easiest race, but i think terran players should understand that their race is the most ridiculous right now
1. blue flame hellions. 2. flying dts 3. fkin dropship healers 4. MULEs. i once watched tourney or something.. and the terran killed off most of his SCVs late game and started massing OCs. the commentators said it was a legit tactic.. 'MULE economy' seriously. i face palmed at how ridiculous this race is when i heard those 2 words.
I remember Kennigit once saying on SOTG that he'd like to show people what TL would be like sans moderation for a while to show them why moderation is so strict here.
Is this that? It's time to nuke this thread.
oh my, people actually bring up valid points and obvious flaws in the game balance? hit them with the ban hammer! show no mercy. NOONE points out obvious game design flaws on my watch!
care to explain to me how terran having flying DTs with range that actually works well as an addition to your army DESPITE your opponent having detection (unlike DTS) makes any sense? or are you just gonna sidestep any kind of argument by making another "peole wo discuss balance r st00pid the game is fine stfu"-post?
You're not discussing balance, you're bitching about balance. Nothing in your post is constructive - it's full of inflammatory comparisons that aren't even valid ones that only serve to be incredibly biased.
On August 11 2011 12:02 Ksyper wrote: Protoss is considered the easiest because it's balanced between micro and macro, zerg is hard because of it's macro, terran is hard because of it's micro protoss is easy because it's a really nice balance between the two.
You just copied my post However if you didn't, I agree my good sir. However, I don't agree that a balance between micro and macro makes toss the easiest. Macro is way more important in SC than anything so I would say right away that Terran has the biggest advantage.
On August 11 2011 09:08 Shooks wrote: Another thread with bronze level players commenting, sigh... People talking about Protoss macro as if it's easy when we're the only race that can't really build units while micro'ing, people talking about how it's also easy to make gates, what? Terran have to make rax's, not much difference...
Point is, this thread is pointless, I wasn't lying when I said bronze level players, it's quite obvious the majority of the people posting have never even played at a high level if they think Protoss is A-moving race when that will get demolished by a MMM army with emp or an infestor based zerg army, Protoss is the most unforgiving race in terms of micro.
It also depends of which matchups, TvP is by far the most 1 dimensional matchup in the game, most top Terrans agree that it's a simple matchup for Terran.
With that sentence i can now conclude that you are one of those bronze players you speak of. Toss has the toughest units in the entire game. As a zerg an entire control group of lings get roasted in a second to hellions if you look away at the wrong moment, an infinite number of mutas gets destroyed to a thor volley if you missmicro, huge groups of marines perish to two fungals. Nothing in a Toss army dies that quickly to anything.
Now i play random so i don't care which race is easiest or hardest, but one thing is definitely true, as a toss you don't have to babysit your units like you have to with Z/T.
Not being able to admit Protoss is the most unforgiving race blows my mind. I mean watching Yigioh play Thorzain the other day, can you honestly say that you need to baby sit units as zerg? Infact it's the complete opposite, the only units you need to babysit is the Mutas, and it's a fast flying units....Not exactly that hard if you have good APM. Like shit, I've vsed Zerg's that have just right clicked my Nexus with a bunch of roaches and lose them all then be able to make a ton more since there so cheap
Since when is getting all your lings roasted gonna cost you the game, it can in the early game, but so does missing an FF on the ramp, durp.
Saying Protoss units are tough is stupid, we get caught off guard and get fungal'd and we can lose them game right there, we get an Obs sniped and cloaked ghosts emp the sentrys and HTs, we lose, we get our collosi out of position and get sniped by vikings we lose, we miss FFs we lose, we have an HT based army against Terran and most of them get EMP'd we lose, the list goes on and on.
I am not saying that Protoss is easier (I think this thread is a minefield really), but come on, let's be fair here. You're saying P loses if P gets EMP'd, misses FFs and so on. Sure that's true. But that isn't a fair basis for saying that P is the most unforgiving race. You're putting up a properly micro'd army against a non-micro'd army. No matter what the matchup, assuming comparable armies, the army with proper micro will always win against the army with no micro (I include setting up proper defensive positions, eg tank seiging, as micro). T and Z would lose too if their army gets stormed and feedbacked while they aren't watching.
I also LOL at people saying protoss macro is easier. How is it easier exactly? Both P and T build units from their structures. Protoss has chrono and T has mule/scans (which I think is better). Both terran and protoss make their units from basically 3 structures: stargate/port, fac/robo/, gateway/rax. They basically identical in macro skill.
Yep, and Zerg builds everything from 1 building and therefor doesnt need to add new facilities to increase production. Also, its cool if you slack on your macro for a minute because your larvae stacks up.
Zerg has by far the easiest macro imo.
....half true in my opinion. Zerg and terran have very forgiving macro...especially terran....miss a mule drop?!? no problem you can just spam mules to play catch up....Zerg you can kinda stock up on larva....protoss you miss a chrono on nexus? too bad
On August 11 2011 11:38 hiturheartx wrote: i dont care if people think toss is the easiest race, but i think terran players should understand that their race is the most ridiculous right now
1. blue flame hellions. 2. flying dts 3. fkin dropship healers 4. MULEs. i once watched tourney or something.. and the terran killed off most of his SCVs late game and started massing OCs. the commentators said it was a legit tactic.. 'MULE economy' seriously. i face palmed at how ridiculous this race is when i heard those 2 words.
I remember Kennigit once saying on SOTG that he'd like to show people what TL would be like sans moderation for a while to show them why moderation is so strict here.
Is this that? It's time to nuke this thread.
oh my, people actually bring up valid points and obvious flaws in the game balance? hit them with the ban hammer! show no mercy. NOONE points out obvious game design flaws on my watch!
care to explain to me how terran having flying DTs with range that actually works well as an addition to your army DESPITE your opponent having detection (unlike DTS) makes any sense? or are you just gonna sidestep any kind of argument by making another "peole wo discuss balance r st00pid the game is fine stfu"-post?
Yes. Shut the fuck up, the game is fine, balance whine is retarded, go back to b.net forums.
Well, once upon a time, Terrans and Zergs didn't know how to counter Colossi. Now that they do, I don't see who is complaining or saying Protoss is easy. It's actually very difficult to play Protoss, like the other races, especially since they don't really have good harass until the late-game, and generally can't put on heavy, non-all-in assaults until Tier 3. Because of that, Protoss has to stay back except when pressuring or all-inning until they reach the heavy hitters.
If the Korean stats say anything, like what ctuchik posted a couple months ago, Protoss is pretty bad in Korea. I don't know, but that's the sort of indication that Protoss isn't really easy to play.
On August 11 2011 09:08 Shooks wrote: Another thread with bronze level players commenting, sigh... People talking about Protoss macro as if it's easy when we're the only race that can't really build units while micro'ing, people talking about how it's also easy to make gates, what? Terran have to make rax's, not much difference...
Point is, this thread is pointless, I wasn't lying when I said bronze level players, it's quite obvious the majority of the people posting have never even played at a high level if they think Protoss is A-moving race when that will get demolished by a MMM army with emp or an infestor based zerg army, Protoss is the most unforgiving race in terms of micro.
It also depends of which matchups, TvP is by far the most 1 dimensional matchup in the game, most top Terrans agree that it's a simple matchup for Terran.
And the most forgiving race in terms of macro after micro goes to shit.
I do not think that any race is consideribly easier/harder/stronger whatever than other, cause theres no reason to and everyone i've heard on the topic so far was "uhh my race is the worst and hardest and the other 2 are sooooo ez", but you're still talking bullshit.
In terms of the actual macro mechanics warp-ins are the least forgiving, if you miss a warp in u don't get it back and you can't queue. After that comes robo/stargate and Terran production, same as warp in, but with queuing. The most forgiving is larvae, you don't have to instantly spend it. For the secondary macro mechanics injects are by faaaaaaar the least forgiving, probably making Zerg the hardest race to macro, but idk cause i've never really played Zerg. Mules are the most forgiving cause you can throw them all down if you missed some, not saying that this is optimal for Terran. Chronoboosts are a little less forgiving than Mules, you can spend them later if you missed them, but you can't use multiple Chronos on the same building. Thats the fact, face it.
I am a low level player whos played Terran in Diamond and now plays Toss in Plat, working my way up. I had the same Problems with both races, if ive had to say something i'd say that Toss macro is a little harder for me and Terran micro was more challenging, but thats personal feelings and reaaaally minor difference. Every balance discussion there is from non pros is ridiculous anyway, I really really dont get why people have to blame everything else, but themselves for losses, it's absolutely pathetic.
(Of course i am saying that there is no such thing as imbalance, or that things like the reaper pre nerf or beta roaches cant be pointed out, but simply whining at this point is unnecessary and won't help anything.)
If it hasn't already been said a lot of it is just stigma carried over from sc1. Where protoss was the 'easiest' to play, but arguably the worst race overall. But foreigners in general were so terrible that it just kind of played off that way.
On August 11 2011 09:08 Shooks wrote: Another thread with bronze level players commenting, sigh... People talking about Protoss macro as if it's easy when we're the only race that can't really build units while micro'ing, people talking about how it's also easy to make gates, what? Terran have to make rax's, not much difference...
Point is, this thread is pointless, I wasn't lying when I said bronze level players, it's quite obvious the majority of the people posting have never even played at a high level if they think Protoss is A-moving race when that will get demolished by a MMM army with emp or an infestor based zerg army, Protoss is the most unforgiving race in terms of micro.
It also depends of which matchups, TvP is by far the most 1 dimensional matchup in the game, most top Terrans agree that it's a simple matchup for Terran.
With that sentence i can now conclude that you are one of those bronze players you speak of. Toss has the toughest units in the entire game. As a zerg an entire control group of lings get roasted in a second to hellions if you look away at the wrong moment, an infinite number of mutas gets destroyed to a thor volley if you missmicro, huge groups of marines perish to two fungals. Nothing in a Toss army dies that quickly to anything.
Now i play random so i don't care which race is easiest or hardest, but one thing is definitely true, as a toss you don't have to babysit your units like you have to with Z/T.
Not being able to admit Protoss is the most unforgiving race blows my mind. I mean watching Yigioh play Thorzain the other day, can you honestly say that you need to baby sit units as zerg? Infact it's the complete opposite, the only units you need to babysit is the Mutas, and it's a fast flying units....Not exactly that hard if you have good APM. Like shit, I've vsed Zerg's that have just right clicked my Nexus with a bunch of roaches and lose them all then be able to make a ton more since there so cheap
Since when is getting all your lings roasted gonna cost you the game, it can in the early game, but so does missing an FF on the ramp, durp.
Saying Protoss units are tough is stupid, we get caught off guard and get fungal'd and we can lose them game right there, we get an Obs sniped and cloaked ghosts emp the sentrys and HTs, we lose, we get our collosi out of position and get sniped by vikings we lose, we miss FFs we lose, we have an HT based army against Terran and most of them get EMP'd we lose, the list goes on and on.
I am not saying that Protoss is easier (I think this thread is a minefield really), but come on, let's be fair here. You're saying P loses if P gets EMP'd, misses FFs and so on. Sure that's true. But that isn't a fair basis for saying that P is the most unforgiving race. You're putting up a properly micro'd army against a non-micro'd army. No matter what the matchup, assuming comparable armies, the army with proper micro will always win against the army with no micro (I include setting up proper defensive positions, eg tank seiging, as micro). T and Z would lose too if their army gets stormed and feedbacked while they aren't watching.
I also LOL at people saying protoss macro is easier. How is it easier exactly? Both P and T build units from their structures. Protoss has chrono and T has mule/scans (which I think is better). Both terran and protoss make their units from basically 3 structures: stargate/port, fac/robo/, gateway/rax. They basically identical in macro skill.
Yep, and Zerg builds everything from 1 building and therefor doesnt need to add new facilities to increase production. Also, its cool if you slack on your macro for a minute because your larvae stacks up.
Zerg has by far the easiest macro imo.
Injects. Fall behind on them and you die, that's why people say zerg macro is hard. Well that and the multiple base management and having to deal with harassment when you're so spread out.
The reason people say protoss macro is easier is because chrono boost and warp gate mechanics are very forgiving if you mess up. You can remake a very cost effective army quickly, churn out upgrades quicker than other races (so you can hit timings better) and have units such as the observer which are a permanent eye on the opponents army/base (sans detection of course, but that goes without saying). If you get dropped, you also have the warp in mechanic to defend when your army is far away. You can also be lazy and just sit back and macro on 3 bases, if your opponent isn't aggressive while using multi-pronged attacks to snipe tech, you will build up a very hard to stop death ball (when managed properly).
I've played all 3 races. Terran the most and the journey to diamond was a straightforward one but I had to work for it. I then played protoss for a while and reached diamond level very quickly (about 10% of the games I played as terran). Lastly I played zerg for a bit, and while mid to endgame they felt unstoppable the early game all-ins and pressure builds were a pain in the ass. Think im around high plat level with zerg though i'm pretty sure I played more games as Z than P.
When playing protoss it just feels more relaxing as well. You can stop the vast majority of cheese (or any weird strategy you haven't seen before) by making a forge and cannons. This is opposed to the various drone cutting times and particular unit comps or spine/spore crawler timing as zerg, or the build order changes/unit comp changes that terran needs to do. I've known people with "ladder anxiety" which goes away when they play P.
As a closing point however, it's not as if it doesn't take skill to play protoss at a high level. Seeing someone like MC play shows it. But it is a more relaxing, 1a'ing kind of army with a fantastic mix of units and great ability to reinforce/rebuild armies in the late game while also having pretty awesome tech. It's also got the widest range of effective cheese of any race (terran obviously has the best all-in's, zerg is kinda lacking in both) which can net free wins, and cements the view of the relaxing race to play at a lower level. I'm not going to pretend I know anything about protoss in masters/grandmasters.
I would suppose the stereotype comes from how often the games are played as 2-3 base turtle or 1 base cheese play. Zerg is perceived to require more macro and enormous map presence with counters with the weaker but generally faster units. Terran is considered harder i suppose because of the capacity for intense micro (i suppose).
Id say no race is easy, just races suit players more. Just dont pay heed to people who tell you that your race was easy, you deserve your wins :D
easiness of one race or another in only an illusion. People that play one race will be as bad with another race, whether they think it or not. Most of the time, the people that complain are bnet forum retards who usually are gold rank, but think they are good because they are rank 1 gold 4vf4 league, as they are 13 years old in most case. play your game, dont care about the others.
On August 11 2011 11:38 figq wrote: Average APM by race from 1128 replays at semi-pro and pro level at MLG Columbus 2011: APM isn't a very important measure, but still I thought this could be interesting stats to check out.
Keep in mind though, that landing a perfect storm, or perfect forcefields, counts very little to the number of actions, and yet, it's more difficult than building 40 lings/rines and running them around.
Terran and Zerg have more apm because the action when producing units are taking into count when u press W and warping units that doest count. but if protoss as to manually produce units apm will be arround 190-220 for protoss.
Plus Terran and Zerg are always moving arround their units while protoss need to play defensive = less apm.
It counts actions such as "Train Stalker (Warp gate)". About your other point, I agree.
On August 11 2011 12:14 sickle wrote: If protoss is so easy to play then why isn't the gsl dominated by them? Instead of that we have endless TvTvTvTs?
Easy to play doesn't mean they're better... Protoss in BW is commonly accepted as the easiest to play race but protoss as a race has significantly less titles and usually very few top players.
On August 11 2011 12:14 sickle wrote: If protoss is so easy to play then why isn't the gsl dominated by them? Instead of that we have endless TvTvTvTs?
Easy to play doesn't mean they're better... Protoss in BW is commonly accepted as the easiest to play race but protoss as a race has significantly less titles and usually very few top players.
That makes no sense though. Why does protoss have very few top players if its so easy? You saying players will deliberately make it "harder" for themselves or something? I somehow doubt that.
People say protoss is the easiest all the time yet at the top levels they often the ones doing the worst.
On August 11 2011 05:10 Lewan72 wrote: I hate it when people say Protoss is 1a move attack win. Protoss requires the MOST micro out of any race. If anything ZERG is a 1a move attack win race (not trying to diss on zerg, zerg is still hard and you have to macro very good). And then they say Protoss is then OP when we have the lowest winrate. Yay
i play zerg and i agree that zerg has the least amount of micro in a battle, i used to feel insulted when i heard people say this but now i have come to realized that i just want it to change, i dont want to be look at my hatchery making units the entire time instead of putting down rows of FF and storms or spliting my marine and stutter steping like a pro.
Oh another unexplored aspect of toss in this thread is the issue of tech. I find that teching as protoss is a lot more of an investment than teching as zerg or terran. As a terran, you almost always will have a starport or factory readily at your disposal. In addition, the add-on mechanic makes it easier for a terran to adapt to any situation if need be. If a protoss wants to get detection they must either build a forge or robotics facility followed by the observer or cannon. A terran can just swap a techlab onto his Starport and make a raven Terran buildings just synergize so much better than toss buildings... Building a stargate really puts a damper on your t1 unit production for the early game. If you don't do damage with stargate units, you lose. Starports are always useful throughout the game. Even if a banshee opening fails, they can still swap on a reactor and make medivacs or vikings. Toss are basically stuck with a useless tech structure unless they're going heavy phoenix. Which like I said, really hurts your overall army power early game.
Zerg on the other hand is a little less forgiving when teching. However, I believe an infestation pit only costs 100/100 to make one of the best spell casters in the game. Toss needs to invest in a twilight council, a templar archives, AND STORM! Infestors start with all their abilities except neural parasite and can get khadarin amulet.
So in a tech sense, protoss is by far the hardest to tech with and the other races are a lot more forgiving.
On August 11 2011 12:14 sickle wrote: If protoss is so easy to play then why isn't the gsl dominated by them? Instead of that we have endless TvTvTvTs?
Easy to play doesn't mean they're better... Protoss in BW is commonly accepted as the easiest to play race but protoss as a race has significantly less titles and usually very few top players.
That's why I agree that at low-levels toss is easier to play. But at higher-levels I think it's definitely the hardest.
It is not the easiest. Looking at Zerg and Terran replays that beat me, makes me feel they are the easier. Zerg can stack resources and spam their larvae if they go unpunish for bad marcoing and end up with same army supply any good zergs have. Terran can just 1a like protoss. And they have very strong 1 base all in.
Everybody has different opinions, at least to me, protoss is the hardest to play and master to perfection.
On August 11 2011 09:08 Shooks wrote: Another thread with bronze level players commenting, sigh... People talking about Protoss macro as if it's easy when we're the only race that can't really build units while micro'ing, people talking about how it's also easy to make gates, what? Terran have to make rax's, not much difference...
Point is, this thread is pointless, I wasn't lying when I said bronze level players, it's quite obvious the majority of the people posting have never even played at a high level if they think Protoss is A-moving race when that will get demolished by a MMM army with emp or an infestor based zerg army, Protoss is the most unforgiving race in terms of micro.
It also depends of which matchups, TvP is by far the most 1 dimensional matchup in the game, most top Terrans agree that it's a simple matchup for Terran.
With that sentence i can now conclude that you are one of those bronze players you speak of. Toss has the toughest units in the entire game. As a zerg an entire control group of lings get roasted in a second to hellions if you look away at the wrong moment, an infinite number of mutas gets destroyed to a thor volley if you missmicro, huge groups of marines perish to two fungals. Nothing in a Toss army dies that quickly to anything.
Now i play random so i don't care which race is easiest or hardest, but one thing is definitely true, as a toss you don't have to babysit your units like you have to with Z/T.
Not being able to admit Protoss is the most unforgiving race blows my mind. I mean watching Yigioh play Thorzain the other day, can you honestly say that you need to baby sit units as zerg? Infact it's the complete opposite, the only units you need to babysit is the Mutas, and it's a fast flying units....Not exactly that hard if you have good APM. Like shit, I've vsed Zerg's that have just right clicked my Nexus with a bunch of roaches and lose them all then be able to make a ton more since there so cheap
Since when is getting all your lings roasted gonna cost you the game, it can in the early game, but so does missing an FF on the ramp, durp.
Saying Protoss units are tough is stupid, we get caught off guard and get fungal'd and we can lose them game right there, we get an Obs sniped and cloaked ghosts emp the sentrys and HTs, we lose, we get our collosi out of position and get sniped by vikings we lose, we miss FFs we lose, we have an HT based army against Terran and most of them get EMP'd we lose, the list goes on and on.
I am not saying that Protoss is easier (I think this thread is a minefield really), but come on, let's be fair here. You're saying P loses if P gets EMP'd, misses FFs and so on. Sure that's true. But that isn't a fair basis for saying that P is the most unforgiving race. You're putting up a properly micro'd army against a non-micro'd army. No matter what the matchup, assuming comparable armies, the army with proper micro will always win against the army with no micro (I include setting up proper defensive positions, eg tank seiging, as micro). T and Z would lose too if their army gets stormed and feedbacked while they aren't watching.
I also LOL at people saying protoss macro is easier. How is it easier exactly? Both P and T build units from their structures. Protoss has chrono and T has mule/scans (which I think is better). Both terran and protoss make their units from basically 3 structures: stargate/port, fac/robo/, gateway/rax. They basically identical in macro skill.
Yep, and Zerg builds everything from 1 building and therefor doesnt need to add new facilities to increase production. Also, its cool if you slack on your macro for a minute because your larvae stacks up.
Zerg has by far the easiest macro imo.
....half true in my opinion. Zerg and terran have very forgiving macro...especially terran....miss a mule drop?!? no problem you can just spam mules to play catch up....Zerg you can kinda stock up on larva....protoss you miss a chrono on nexus? too bad
how is zerg macro more forgiving than protoss. thats just an absurd claim. MULEs are probably the best out of the 3 but if zergs miss and inject, thats just potential gone. Chrono can be and is often saved up and spent in bursts. The problem with chrono is that the value of it drops as the game drags on to mid/late game generally.
I play toss and dont like the claims of toss being OP but saying missing injects is somehow more forgiving than missing a chrono is :/
In BroodWar protoss was definitely the easiest race to play until you hit that C+ish level, then after that protoss gets insanely hard ahah
I didnt think this carried onto Starcraft 2 though... I think zerg is easiest to play in sc2, but might just be because my offraces in bw were terrible.
On August 11 2011 12:14 sickle wrote: If protoss is so easy to play then why isn't the gsl dominated by them? Instead of that we have endless TvTvTvTs?
Easy to play doesn't mean they're better... Protoss in BW is commonly accepted as the easiest to play race but protoss as a race has significantly less titles and usually very few top players.
That makes no sense though. Why does protoss have very few top players if its so easy? You saying players will deliberately make it "harder" for themselves or something? I somehow doubt that.
People say protoss is the easiest all the time yet at the top levels they often the ones doing the worst.
Skill caps. Given that protoss are lacking a harass unit (which will be adressed in HoTS) they don't have quite the variance in play or multi pronged attacks (except by things like DTs, but they can be nullified without counter-micro).
This makes a difference in overall play. Protoss units are also amazing when massed up, but in small numbers they can be picked off by things like speedlings or a medivac full of MM.
Generally things like improving constantly on your micro, map awareness and harassment can take you further as Z or T than P due to P's lack of options in that area.
On August 11 2011 09:08 Shooks wrote: Another thread with bronze level players commenting, sigh... People talking about Protoss macro as if it's easy when we're the only race that can't really build units while micro'ing, people talking about how it's also easy to make gates, what? Terran have to make rax's, not much difference...
Point is, this thread is pointless, I wasn't lying when I said bronze level players, it's quite obvious the majority of the people posting have never even played at a high level if they think Protoss is A-moving race when that will get demolished by a MMM army with emp or an infestor based zerg army, Protoss is the most unforgiving race in terms of micro.
It also depends of which matchups, TvP is by far the most 1 dimensional matchup in the game, most top Terrans agree that it's a simple matchup for Terran.
With that sentence i can now conclude that you are one of those bronze players you speak of. Toss has the toughest units in the entire game. As a zerg an entire control group of lings get roasted in a second to hellions if you look away at the wrong moment, an infinite number of mutas gets destroyed to a thor volley if you missmicro, huge groups of marines perish to two fungals. Nothing in a Toss army dies that quickly to anything.
Now i play random so i don't care which race is easiest or hardest, but one thing is definitely true, as a toss you don't have to babysit your units like you have to with Z/T.
Not being able to admit Protoss is the most unforgiving race blows my mind. I mean watching Yigioh play Thorzain the other day, can you honestly say that you need to baby sit units as zerg? Infact it's the complete opposite, the only units you need to babysit is the Mutas, and it's a fast flying units....Not exactly that hard if you have good APM. Like shit, I've vsed Zerg's that have just right clicked my Nexus with a bunch of roaches and lose them all then be able to make a ton more since there so cheap
Since when is getting all your lings roasted gonna cost you the game, it can in the early game, but so does missing an FF on the ramp, durp.
Saying Protoss units are tough is stupid, we get caught off guard and get fungal'd and we can lose them game right there, we get an Obs sniped and cloaked ghosts emp the sentrys and HTs, we lose, we get our collosi out of position and get sniped by vikings we lose, we miss FFs we lose, we have an HT based army against Terran and most of them get EMP'd we lose, the list goes on and on.
I am not saying that Protoss is easier (I think this thread is a minefield really), but come on, let's be fair here. You're saying P loses if P gets EMP'd, misses FFs and so on. Sure that's true. But that isn't a fair basis for saying that P is the most unforgiving race. You're putting up a properly micro'd army against a non-micro'd army. No matter what the matchup, assuming comparable armies, the army with proper micro will always win against the army with no micro (I include setting up proper defensive positions, eg tank seiging, as micro). T and Z would lose too if their army gets stormed and feedbacked while they aren't watching.
I also LOL at people saying protoss macro is easier. How is it easier exactly? Both P and T build units from their structures. Protoss has chrono and T has mule/scans (which I think is better). Both terran and protoss make their units from basically 3 structures: stargate/port, fac/robo/, gateway/rax. They basically identical in macro skill.
Yep, and Zerg builds everything from 1 building and therefor doesnt need to add new facilities to increase production. Also, its cool if you slack on your macro for a minute because your larvae stacks up.
Zerg has by far the easiest macro imo.
....half true in my opinion. Zerg and terran have very forgiving macro...especially terran....miss a mule drop?!? no problem you can just spam mules to play catch up....Zerg you can kinda stock up on larva....protoss you miss a chrono on nexus? too bad
how is zerg macro more forgiving than protoss. thats just an absurd claim. MULEs are probably the best out of the 3 but if zergs miss and inject, thats just potential gone. Chrono can be and is often saved up and spent in bursts. The problem with chrono is that the value of it drops as the game drags on to mid/late game generally.
I play toss and dont like the claims of toss being OP but saying missing injects is somehow more forgiving than missing a chrono is :/
your right too but macro is more then just chrono inject and mules and they are very different....Guess thats more my fault but inject allows for stocking up on larva which once you have a ton of larva any extra resources can be all spent...protoss if you fall far behind its pretty much impossible to redeem yourself
On August 11 2011 12:14 sickle wrote: If protoss is so easy to play then why isn't the gsl dominated by them? Instead of that we have endless TvTvTvTs?
Easy to play doesn't mean they're better... Protoss in BW is commonly accepted as the easiest to play race but protoss as a race has significantly less titles and usually very few top players.
That makes no sense though. Why does protoss have very few top players if its so easy? You saying players will deliberately make it "harder" for themselves or something? I somehow doubt that.
People say protoss is the easiest all the time yet at the top levels they often the ones doing the worst.
Skill caps. Given that protoss are lacking a harass unit (which will be adressed in HoTS) they don't have quite the variance in play or multi pronged attacks (except by things like DTs, but they can be nullified without counter-micro).
This makes a difference in overall play. Protoss units are also amazing when massed up, but in small numbers they can be picked off by things like speedlings or a medivac full of MM.
Generally things like improving constantly on your micro, map awareness and harassment can take you further as Z or T than P due to P's lack of options in that area.
Is there any indication of the harassment issue being addressed in HOTS, or are you simply making an optimistic assumption?
On August 11 2011 12:14 sickle wrote: If protoss is so easy to play then why isn't the gsl dominated by them? Instead of that we have endless TvTvTvTs?
Easy to play doesn't mean they're better... Protoss in BW is commonly accepted as the easiest to play race but protoss as a race has significantly less titles and usually very few top players.
That makes no sense though. Why does protoss have very few top players if its so easy? You saying players will deliberately make it "harder" for themselves or something? I somehow doubt that.
People say protoss is the easiest all the time yet at the top levels they often the ones doing the worst.
Skill caps. Given that protoss are lacking a harass unit (which will be adressed in HoTS) they don't have quite the variance in play or multi pronged attacks (except by things like DTs, but they can be nullified without counter-micro).
This makes a difference in overall play. Protoss units are also amazing when massed up, but in small numbers they can be picked off by things like speedlings or a medivac full of MM.
Generally things like improving constantly on your micro, map awareness and harassment can take you further as Z or T than P due to P's lack of options in that area.
Is there any indication of the harassment issue being addressed in HOTS, or are you simply making an optimistic assumption?
Browder said that protoss is getting a harassment unit in HoTS in an interview recently.
On August 11 2011 12:14 sickle wrote: If protoss is so easy to play then why isn't the gsl dominated by them? Instead of that we have endless TvTvTvTs?
Easy to play doesn't mean they're better... Protoss in BW is commonly accepted as the easiest to play race but protoss as a race has significantly less titles and usually very few top players.
That makes no sense though. Why does protoss have very few top players if its so easy? You saying players will deliberately make it "harder" for themselves or something? I somehow doubt that.
People say protoss is the easiest all the time yet at the top levels they often the ones doing the worst.
Skill caps. Given that protoss are lacking a harass unit (which will be adressed in HoTS) they don't have quite the variance in play or multi pronged attacks (except by things like DTs, but they can be nullified without counter-micro).
This makes a difference in overall play. Protoss units are also amazing when massed up, but in small numbers they can be picked off by things like speedlings or a medivac full of MM.
Generally things like improving constantly on your micro, map awareness and harassment can take you further as Z or T than P due to P's lack of options in that area.
Is there any indication of the harassment issue being addressed in HOTS, or are you simply making an optimistic assumption?
Browder said that protoss is getting a harassment unit in HoTS in an interview recently.
On August 11 2011 12:14 sickle wrote: If protoss is so easy to play then why isn't the gsl dominated by them? Instead of that we have endless TvTvTvTs?
Easy to play doesn't mean they're better... Protoss in BW is commonly accepted as the easiest to play race but protoss as a race has significantly less titles and usually very few top players.
That makes no sense though. Why does protoss have very few top players if its so easy? You saying players will deliberately make it "harder" for themselves or something? I somehow doubt that.
People say protoss is the easiest all the time yet at the top levels they often the ones doing the worst.
Skill caps. Given that protoss are lacking a harass unit (which will be adressed in HoTS) they don't have quite the variance in play or multi pronged attacks (except by things like DTs, but they can be nullified without counter-micro).
This makes a difference in overall play. Protoss units are also amazing when massed up, but in small numbers they can be picked off by things like speedlings or a medivac full of MM.
Generally things like improving constantly on your micro, map awareness and harassment can take you further as Z or T than P due to P's lack of options in that area.
I agree. But this makes protoss hard to play, due to the lack of such options. Protoss is very unforgiving. A few sentries caught out of position - gg. A missed, or a not perfect ff - gg. If you didn't spot the drop on the way to your main while your army is in the middle of the map - gg.
Protoss seems to be the easiest race for a bunch of reasons:
warpgate mechanic and ability to macro purely through building more and more gateways buildings auto build easy hot keys some devestating high tier units that require little control
all that being said I don't think toss is the easiest to play at higher levels where macro and micro mechanics are super solid across the board.
I can see the reason why OP made this thread. He was on a losing streak and he's really pissed off about it. He wants to give vent to his frustrations but if he complains people will just say LOLOLOL AT LEAST YOU DON'T PLAY ZERG. So in anticipation of that he creates this thread to first undermine the prevailing belief that protoss is the easiest to play in the spectrum of things, thus giving validity to his desire to whine.
I don't say this by way of criticism either, this game can evoke some strong emotions from people. Just know that the only way out is to improve.
On August 11 2011 12:28 Mobius wrote: In BroodWar protoss was definitely the easiest race to play until you hit that C+ish level, then after that protoss gets insanely hard ahah
I didnt think this carried onto Starcraft 2 though... I think zerg is easiest to play in sc2, but might just be because my offraces in bw were terrible.
yes zerg is the easiest to play unlike what other people says. Even if you miss your inject you can still mass up a ton of army/drones in a short period of time. People with low apm that play zergs die to 4/6 gates easily and they blame tosses are easy.how many times have zerg players reach 1k resources and they just simply spend it all in a second?
On August 11 2011 05:10 Lewan72 wrote: I hate it when people say Protoss is 1a move attack win. Protoss requires the MOST micro out of any race. If anything ZERG is a 1a move attack win race (not trying to diss on zerg, zerg is still hard and you have to macro very good). And then they say Protoss is then OP when we have the lowest winrate. Yay
i play zerg and i agree that zerg has the least amount of micro in a battle, i used to feel insulted when i heard people say this but now i have come to realized that i just want it to change, i dont want to be look at my hatchery making units the entire time instead of putting down rows of FF and storms or spliting my marine and stutter steping like a pro.
Well you get fungal growth micro (kind of), and ZvZs feels like a lot of micro in my opinion (especially when baneling ling vs baneling ling)
On August 11 2011 12:14 sickle wrote: If protoss is so easy to play then why isn't the gsl dominated by them? Instead of that we have endless TvTvTvTs?
Easy to play doesn't mean they're better... Protoss in BW is commonly accepted as the easiest to play race but protoss as a race has significantly less titles and usually very few top players.
That makes no sense though. Why does protoss have very few top players if its so easy? You saying players will deliberately make it "harder" for themselves or something? I somehow doubt that.
People say protoss is the easiest all the time yet at the top levels they often the ones doing the worst.
Skill caps. Given that protoss are lacking a harass unit (which will be adressed in HoTS) they don't have quite the variance in play or multi pronged attacks (except by things like DTs, but they can be nullified without counter-micro).
This makes a difference in overall play. Protoss units are also amazing when massed up, but in small numbers they can be picked off by things like speedlings or a medivac full of MM.
Generally things like improving constantly on your micro, map awareness and harassment can take you further as Z or T than P due to P's lack of options in that area.
Is there any indication of the harassment issue being addressed in HOTS, or are you simply making an optimistic assumption?
There was an interview with Mr Browder where he said toss will get a harassing option in HotS. It's pretty ridiculous without one atm. I mean, terran can drop a few blue-flame hellions in the mineral line and roast 30 probes. A zerg can drop banelings. What does toss have?
Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
Most of the argument of why protoss is easier is based around the idea that protoss has less to do through the early game. There is little to no harass that is possible before tier 3 and most non all-in pushes protoss have involve tier 3 units.
The major flaw in this logic is that the goal of the game isn't to "do stuff", it's to win. Zerg GET to spread creep and inject for massive macro. Terran GET to scan and do creative drop play. While these things may be harder on the player, the fact that a race has these options makes the game EASIER to win when played properly.
I'm not saying protoss are bad, it's just that all protoss play is a variation on the same game plan. The extreme immobility of the death ball (the same speed as hydras off creep and even slower with templar) combined with the lack of pre tier 3 harass basically limits play to 1) survive 2) push for win/lose *given equally skilled play of course. Player skill is always the #1 determining factor in victory.
tl/dr : I believe the real sentiment towards protoss is that it has the simplest game planning but the more rational observers realize this is actually an obstacle to victory at any reasonable level of play and probably accounts for protoss having the lowest win rates.
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
You do realise that the entire protoss army is weak and relies on perfect ffs to be some-what effective. Tell me, how are ffs gonna save you from 3-pronged mm drops?
On August 11 2011 05:12 DannyJ wrote: Macro is obviously the easiest, there's less ways to flat out die, A-moving is far more successful compared to other races.
Macro is actually easiest with zerg imo. Larva stacks so if you miss using it it saves up unlike for Protoss or Terran. I think decision making is hardest fro Zerg and easiest for Protoss and micro is obviously hardest for Protoss. Terran is kind of a middle ground with hard macro and prettyb easy micro. Terran definately needs most multitasking tho and Protoss needs kind of little of that.
Zerg has to be using their macro mechanic to get the larva to do that. Even when larva is stockpiled, Queens still need to inject to go over 3 per hatch.
On August 11 2011 12:14 sickle wrote: If protoss is so easy to play then why isn't the gsl dominated by them? Instead of that we have endless TvTvTvTs?
Easy to play doesn't mean they're better... Protoss in BW is commonly accepted as the easiest to play race but protoss as a race has significantly less titles and usually very few top players.
That makes no sense though. Why does protoss have very few top players if its so easy? You saying players will deliberately make it "harder" for themselves or something? I somehow doubt that.
People say protoss is the easiest all the time yet at the top levels they often the ones doing the worst.
Skill caps. Given that protoss are lacking a harass unit (which will be adressed in HoTS) they don't have quite the variance in play or multi pronged attacks (except by things like DTs, but they can be nullified without counter-micro).
This makes a difference in overall play. Protoss units are also amazing when massed up, but in small numbers they can be picked off by things like speedlings or a medivac full of MM.
Generally things like improving constantly on your micro, map awareness and harassment can take you further as Z or T than P due to P's lack of options in that area.
Is there any indication of the harassment issue being addressed in HOTS, or are you simply making an optimistic assumption?
Browder said that protoss is getting a harassment unit in HoTS in an interview recently.
Is there a source on that? :D
Browder:
There are some units we can upgrade wholesale or remove and replace with something better. That's one easy way to give better gameplay without giving so many options you don't know what's going on while also not compromising balance. There may be other places we can legitimately add. For instance, the Protoss don't really have a great way to raid. To a point; they can kind of raid with Phoenixes with anti-gravs and they can cheese with void rays, but that's not really fun. But we can add in a legitimate Protoss raider that gives a player new strategies.
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
What would you call "hard" micro? I don't find any other micro intensive unit in Terran and Zerg that's harder than blink micro.
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
You do realise that the entire protoss army is weak and relies on perfect ffs to be some-what effective. Tell me, how are ffs gonna save you from 3-pronged mm drops?
Did you not see my (fclick fclick fclick). Perfect forcefields are fucking simple. Fclick in the middle of his unit ball and you're safe.
For 3 pronged MMM drops you simply position your army well, make some cannons, and use something called "the warp in" function. I heard it's pretty good.
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
What would you call "hard" micro? I don't find any other micro intensive unit in Terran and Zerg that's harder than blink micro.
Something that can actually cost you the game if you make a mistake. Tanks being unsieged, marines not being spread well enough, getting trapped behind forcefields, Mutalisks not magic boxing, banelings inefficiently detonating, Infestors getting into range and dying instantly.
I'm not talking about early game, any race apart from Terran have it hell early game (although fclicking is still pretty easy). but in the midgame to lategame there's nothing Protoss can do that can cost them the game instantly. Miss some forcefields? By this point you have about full energy 10+ sentries so you shouldn't be worried. And pressing B continuously, believe it or not, will not cost you the game if you don't do it fast enough (which is still easy as fuck). This is why Protoss is the relaxing race, and why it's considered the "casual" race.
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
You do realise that the entire protoss army is weak and relies on perfect ffs to be some-what effective. Tell me, how are ffs gonna save you from 3-pronged mm drops?
Did you not see my (fclick fclick fclick). Perfect forcefields are fucking simple. Fclick in the middle of his unit ball and you're safe.
For 3 pronged MMM drops you simply position your army well, make some cannons, and use something called "the warp in" function. I heard it's pretty good.
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
What would you call "hard" micro? I don't find any other micro intensive unit in Terran and Zerg that's harder than blink micro.
Something that can actually cost you the game if you make a mistake. Tanks being unsieged, marines not being spread well enough, getting trapped behind forcefields, Mutalisks not magic boxing, banelings inefficiently detonating, Infestors getting into range and dying instantly.
I'm not talking about early game, any race apart from Terran have it hell early game (although fclicking is still pretty easy). but in the midgame to lategame there's nothing Protoss can do that can cost them the game instantly. Miss some forcefields? By this point you have about full energy 10+ sentries so you shouldn't be worried. And pressing B continuously, believe it or not, will not cost you the game if you don't do it fast enough (which is still easy as fuck). This is why Protoss is the relaxing race, and why it's considered the "casual" race.
Sounds like someone's had a couple of tough losses lately.
On August 11 2011 12:26 Zaurus wrote: It is not the easiest. Looking at Zerg and Terran replays that beat me, makes me feel they are the easier. Zerg can stack resources and spam their larvae if they go unpunish for bad marcoing and end up with same army supply any good zergs have. Terran can just 1a like protoss. And they have very strong 1 base all in.
Everybody has different opinions, at least to me, protoss is the hardest to play and master to perfection.
Zerg's spawn lavae ability is the only marco mechanic that actually has a bit of a cooldown on it. If you miss a spawn then thats time you'll NEVER get back. Terran can just spam mules, no biggie + Show Spoiler +
It has been said that the whole point of the ability to spam mules is because of the design of the terran race = that means its ok, but i think that design aspect is broken. not the terran race, but that aspect. but whatever.
and Protoss can chrono other buildings if they need to spend it. 1 queen cant manage two hatcheries.
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
You do realise that the entire protoss army is weak and relies on perfect ffs to be some-what effective. Tell me, how are ffs gonna save you from 3-pronged mm drops?
Did you not see my (fclick fclick fclick). Perfect forcefields are fucking simple. Fclick in the middle of his unit ball and you're safe.
For 3 pronged MMM drops you simply position your army well, make some cannons, and use something called "the warp in" function. I heard it's pretty good.
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
What would you call "hard" micro? I don't find any other micro intensive unit in Terran and Zerg that's harder than blink micro.
Something that can actually cost you the game if you make a mistake. Tanks being unsieged, marines not being spread well enough, getting trapped behind forcefields, Mutalisks not magic boxing, banelings inefficiently detonating, Infestors getting into range and dying instantly.
I'm not talking about early game, any race apart from Terran have it hell early game (although fclicking is still pretty easy). but in the midgame to lategame there's nothing Protoss can do that can cost them the game instantly. Miss some forcefields? By this point you have about full energy 10+ sentries so you shouldn't be worried. And pressing B continuously, believe it or not, will not cost you the game if you don't do it fast enough (which is still easy as fuck). This is why Protoss is the relaxing race, and why it's considered the "casual" race.
Like i said before, the protoss race is balanced on the assumption of perfect ffs, 1 missed ff and u lose. If godly perfect ffs are so easy and so overpowered how come protoss isn't dominating? Thats exactly of an example of a simple mistake that will cost you the game. 1 missed storm and you will lose the game. While only 1 emp that you did not dodge will make you unable to place down your 'perfect ffs' or storm, causing you to lose the game. And do you really think that sentries and hts have infinite range? They are even worse than the infestor to use. If you have 10 sentries means you don't have as much other gas-intensive units that u absolutely need in your army usch as collosus and hts. And a few emps will make your 1000 gas of sentries useless. So please tell me, whats so unforgiving about engaging as terran in tvp?
that's why i play protoss, zerg is way too hard and terran tank positioning is too much for me
same thing could be done for terran except it's A, D, T, S. let's not start the "lol it's a 1a race" discussion, as that's not at all what the thread is about. you can 1a with any race, it's how you stray away from it that shows skill, and it's why people are getting away from colossus and roach/hydra specifically. as mechanics get better, people will use spellcasters more effectively, netting them higher cost efficiency.
If you're going to make fail quips like that, don't bother... lmfao he didn't even include E for marines.
On August 11 2011 12:14 sickle wrote: If protoss is so easy to play then why isn't the gsl dominated by them? Instead of that we have endless TvTvTvTs?
Easy to play doesn't mean they're better... Protoss in BW is commonly accepted as the easiest to play race but protoss as a race has significantly less titles and usually very few top players.
That makes no sense though. Why does protoss have very few top players if its so easy? You saying players will deliberately make it "harder" for themselves or something? I somehow doubt that.
People say protoss is the easiest all the time yet at the top levels they often the ones doing the worst.
Skill caps. Given that protoss are lacking a harass unit (which will be adressed in HoTS) they don't have quite the variance in play or multi pronged attacks (except by things like DTs, but they can be nullified without counter-micro).
This makes a difference in overall play. Protoss units are also amazing when massed up, but in small numbers they can be picked off by things like speedlings or a medivac full of MM.
Generally things like improving constantly on your micro, map awareness and harassment can take you further as Z or T than P due to P's lack of options in that area.
Is there any indication of the harassment issue being addressed in HOTS, or are you simply making an optimistic assumption?
There was an interview with Mr Browder where he said toss will get a harassing option in HotS. It's pretty ridiculous without one atm. I mean, terran can drop a few blue-flame hellions in the mineral line and roast 30 probes. A zerg can drop banelings. What does toss have?
what does toss have?: a flying unit that can MOVE WHILE SHOOTING.
On August 11 2011 12:14 sickle wrote: If protoss is so easy to play then why isn't the gsl dominated by them? Instead of that we have endless TvTvTvTs?
Easy to play doesn't mean they're better... Protoss in BW is commonly accepted as the easiest to play race but protoss as a race has significantly less titles and usually very few top players.
That makes no sense though. Why does protoss have very few top players if its so easy? You saying players will deliberately make it "harder" for themselves or something? I somehow doubt that.
People say protoss is the easiest all the time yet at the top levels they often the ones doing the worst.
Skill caps. Given that protoss are lacking a harass unit (which will be adressed in HoTS) they don't have quite the variance in play or multi pronged attacks (except by things like DTs, but they can be nullified without counter-micro).
This makes a difference in overall play. Protoss units are also amazing when massed up, but in small numbers they can be picked off by things like speedlings or a medivac full of MM.
Generally things like improving constantly on your micro, map awareness and harassment can take you further as Z or T than P due to P's lack of options in that area.
Is there any indication of the harassment issue being addressed in HOTS, or are you simply making an optimistic assumption?
There was an interview with Mr Browder where he said toss will get a harassing option in HotS. It's pretty ridiculous without one atm. I mean, terran can drop a few blue-flame hellions in the mineral line and roast 30 probes. A zerg can drop banelings. What does toss have?
what does toss have?: a flying unit that can MOVE WHILE SHOOTING.
I would take a baneling or hellion that will instantly decimate a mineral line, over a 100 gas paper-plane that kills 1 worker at a time. 1 hellion > 1 phoenix in terms of harass
I play protoss at a low level and i am of the opinion that each race is just different and that some things are easier as a protoss.
Protoss is the easiest to a move with succes due to their strong (but expensive) units, but i would say that at a low level this stops working.
they also play a more passive style. cant move out against zerg too well, and cant roll a terran due to bunkers and their turtling nature.
i would say that stim + medivacs is the most easy/OP mechanic but seige tanks are slightly harder to use then most of protoss units (phoenixes take some good apm too use effectively)
Its harder to use chrono and warp in units while multi tasking so i dont know why people saying protoss is easiest macro sense. yes larvae inject and mules are incredible important but its the same every time every game. yet you chrono different stuff and warp stuff in different locations all the time requiring a little bit more attention.
I would say what makes Protoss hard to play isn't the mechanics but the metagame aspects. Its much much much easier to tech switch as T and Z then it is as P. i watch games all the where a zerg will make a tech building and then bam 10-20 new units are in production, but P can only make 1 Collossus or Voidray at a time.
just my 2 cents, I dont think any race is underpowered, but the each excel and are weak at different things. P probably takes less multi tasking because there just arent any options for harassment (or map control vs. zerg) so we are resigned to the fact that we kinda have to play passive.
On August 11 2011 06:04 minisockey wrote: u cant be serious that u dont understand why people say protoss is easy mode. this is coming from a zerg perspective who i'm pretty good at beating P cuz i practice it the most 1) protoss requiress very little apm only hard part is hitting tab to switch between spell casters which in most cases is only between 2 casters so easy. 2) ive played protoss off race and macroing is incredibly easy 3) sentries = map editor... kinda wish i had that would make life easy only way u can possibly mess that up is if u fail teribly which in that case u die. 4) other then the hellion u have all the games best cost efficent units by far... aka collosis/templar-->archon/ blink stalkers 5) u can win games by not even building a single unit... 6) u have a god unit practically which is the mother ship
When you have someone using the mothership as a bullet point of protoss you know you have created a bronzie level thread.
show me another unit in the game that can do 2 amazing spells, 1 great passive ability, and good damage
On August 11 2011 06:04 minisockey wrote: u cant be serious that u dont understand why people say protoss is easy mode. this is coming from a zerg perspective who i'm pretty good at beating P cuz i practice it the most 1) protoss requiress very little apm only hard part is hitting tab to switch between spell casters which in most cases is only between 2 casters so easy. 2) ive played protoss off race and macroing is incredibly easy 3) sentries = map editor... kinda wish i had that would make life easy only way u can possibly mess that up is if u fail teribly which in that case u die. 4) other then the hellion u have all the games best cost efficent units by far... aka collosis/templar-->archon/ blink stalkers 5) u can win games by not even building a single unit... 6) u have a god unit practically which is the mother ship
When you have someone using the mothership as a bullet point of protoss you know you have created a bronzie level thread.
show me another unit in the game that can do 2 amazing spells, 1 great passive ability, and good damage
Show me another unit with that cost and buildtime.
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
You do realise that the entire protoss army is weak and relies on perfect ffs to be some-what effective. Tell me, how are ffs gonna save you from 3-pronged mm drops?
Did you not see my (fclick fclick fclick). Perfect forcefields are fucking simple. Fclick in the middle of his unit ball and you're safe.
For 3 pronged MMM drops you simply position your army well, make some cannons, and use something called "the warp in" function. I heard it's pretty good.
On August 11 2011 12:44 Flameling wrote:
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
What would you call "hard" micro? I don't find any other micro intensive unit in Terran and Zerg that's harder than blink micro.
Something that can actually cost you the game if you make a mistake. Tanks being unsieged, marines not being spread well enough, getting trapped behind forcefields, Mutalisks not magic boxing, banelings inefficiently detonating, Infestors getting into range and dying instantly.
I'm not talking about early game, any race apart from Terran have it hell early game (although fclicking is still pretty easy). but in the midgame to lategame there's nothing Protoss can do that can cost them the game instantly. Miss some forcefields? By this point you have about full energy 10+ sentries so you shouldn't be worried. And pressing B continuously, believe it or not, will not cost you the game if you don't do it fast enough (which is still easy as fuck). This is why Protoss is the relaxing race, and why it's considered the "casual" race.
Like i said before, the protoss race is balanced on the assumption of perfect ffs, 1 missed ff and u lose. If godly perfect ffs are so easy and so overpowered how come protoss isn't dominating? Thats exactly of an example of a simple mistake that will cost you the game. 1 missed storm and you will lose the game. While only 1 emp that you did not dodge will make you unable to place down your 'perfect ffs' or storm, causing you to lose the game. And do you really think that sentries and hts have infinite range? They are even worse than the infestor to use. If you have 10 sentries means you don't have as much other gas-intensive units that u absolutely need in your army usch as collosus and hts. And a few emps will make your 1000 gas of sentries useless. So please tell me, whats so unforgiving about engaging as terran in tvp?
difficulty =/= balance
Perfect forcefields are easy, but they don't win you the game. Other races know how to deal with them (eg. on close position shattered temple zvp end the game before protoss has 5 sentries or using medivacs to lift units).
As for your other complaints, 1 missed ff does not mean a loss. Please stop saying this bullshit. 1 missed storm also does not mean a loss, it simply means the engagement will be less effective for you. There's a difference between your losing half your MMM ball or you entire flock of mutas, compared to "losing a storm". Meanwhile if you think one EMP ends the game for you, well I heard spreading your units is pretty good. Although I'm sure that pre positioning before a battle might take a bit too much micro for the typical protoss. As for sentries cutting into your gas units... really? Have you never seen a typical 3gate sentry expand in ZvP? A shitload amount of sentries is not hard to get. Tier 1 Units don't take much of a commitment believe it or not! In fact it's completely standard to have so many sentries. Finally, one of your other ignorant statements is the range of forcefields and storms: Fungal Growth is 7 range for a full fungal. Force Fields and Storms are both 9 range.
Oh and before I have to cringe again at one of these posts and actually wonder why I'm bothering to even argue... difficulty =/= balance
so many upset nerds in this thread that i cant even post my opinion without getting flamed by incoherent arguements. sad but thats the lick of these kinds of discussion threads
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
You do realise that the entire protoss army is weak and relies on perfect ffs to be some-what effective. Tell me, how are ffs gonna save you from 3-pronged mm drops?
Did you not see my (fclick fclick fclick). Perfect forcefields are fucking simple. Fclick in the middle of his unit ball and you're safe.
For 3 pronged MMM drops you simply position your army well, make some cannons, and use something called "the warp in" function. I heard it's pretty good.
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
What would you call "hard" micro? I don't find any other micro intensive unit in Terran and Zerg that's harder than blink micro.
Something that can actually cost you the game if you make a mistake. Tanks being unsieged, marines not being spread well enough, getting trapped behind forcefields, Mutalisks not magic boxing, banelings inefficiently detonating, Infestors getting into range and dying instantly.
I'm not talking about early game, any race apart from Terran have it hell early game (although fclicking is still pretty easy). but in the midgame to lategame there's nothing Protoss can do that can cost them the game instantly. Miss some forcefields? By this point you have about full energy 10+ sentries so you shouldn't be worried. And pressing B continuously, believe it or not, will not cost you the game if you don't do it fast enough (which is still easy as fuck). This is why Protoss is the relaxing race, and why it's considered the "casual" race.
On August 11 2011 05:15 Bluerain wrote: imo, it takes relatively little skill to become a gold/platinum protoss player. just macro up and make a stalker/collosi ball with some sentries and a move and force field a couple times. of course at pro levels, i think skill requirement is relatively the same for all races.
Becoming a gold/platinum player isn't anything special if you intend of playing this game competitively /seriously.
I think you can get to "insert non-gm league" by massing any unit or spamming 1 build. Examples include people getting to GM 3rax marine all in ( aka spamming aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa) and 6/7pooling every game.
units are more expensive in general, so it's easier to spend your money. also since 1 probe can build everything, it's easier to shift queue buildings.
toss requires good unit control and micro though. every unit counts since they are so expensive. the big old death ball 1a does not happen at very high levels.
a lot of zerg players say how their race requires most skill, but honestly it's just game sense and keeping up with their injects. because they have so many units, most zergs i see 1a a shit ton more than toss players. totally different playstyle imo.
On August 11 2011 13:19 Grampz wrote: so many upset nerds in this thread that i cant even post my opinion without getting flamed by incoherent arguements. sad but thats the lick of these kinds of discussion threads
Haters gonna hate. Why enjoy playing your own race when you can rage at other people for the race they play?
On August 11 2011 13:19 Grampz wrote: so many upset nerds in this thread that i cant even post my opinion without getting flamed by incoherent arguements. sad but thats the lick of these kinds of discussion threads
Haters gonna hate. Why enjoy playing your own race when you can rage at other people for the race they play?
On August 11 2011 13:27 Rassy wrote: LMAO @ all that bashing of sjonny silver and gold noobs Its been ages since i have read so much stupidity from underaged kids in 1 tread Normally it doesnt bother me at all (i just dont care for what people with no brains or experience say) but since i got to love and care for this game and tl i have to say it now annyway since i think it is a bad thing in general the bashing down on lower league players by people who probably just got diamond (LOL) with more or less subtle remarks in this tread and on team liquid in general is realy pathetic and i am truly disapointed in the level of maturity on this forum
This tread isnt even about balance lol, the op didnt ask "wich is the most easy race" he asked "why do people see protoss as the most easy race" but every toss player got on their high horse and felt personally attacked -.-
annyway: a verry entertaining tread after all,one of the first i read almost every post (couldnt sleep) loved the pic with the protoss keyboard^^
Protoss players take this personally because its fucking insulting and we get it ALL THE TIME.
Nobody likes to catch shit 24/7 on ladder and on forums for the race they play. Especially when its mostly inane ramblings from people who play this game at such a sub optimal fucking level that any actual differences in balance or difficulty in play aren't even being approached.
On August 11 2011 13:19 Grampz wrote: so many upset nerds in this thread that i cant even post my opinion without getting flamed by incoherent arguements. sad but thats the lick of these kinds of discussion threads
Haters gonna hate. Why enjoy playing your own race when you can rage at other people for the race they play?
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
You do realise that the entire protoss army is weak and relies on perfect ffs to be some-what effective. Tell me, how are ffs gonna save you from 3-pronged mm drops?
Did you not see my (fclick fclick fclick). Perfect forcefields are fucking simple. Fclick in the middle of his unit ball and you're safe.
For 3 pronged MMM drops you simply position your army well, make some cannons, and use something called "the warp in" function. I heard it's pretty good.
On August 11 2011 12:44 Flameling wrote:
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
What would you call "hard" micro? I don't find any other micro intensive unit in Terran and Zerg that's harder than blink micro.
Something that can actually cost you the game if you make a mistake. Tanks being unsieged, marines not being spread well enough, getting trapped behind forcefields, Mutalisks not magic boxing, banelings inefficiently detonating, Infestors getting into range and dying instantly.
I'm not talking about early game, any race apart from Terran have it hell early game (although fclicking is still pretty easy). but in the midgame to lategame there's nothing Protoss can do that can cost them the game instantly. Miss some forcefields? By this point you have about full energy 10+ sentries so you shouldn't be worried. And pressing B continuously, believe it or not, will not cost you the game if you don't do it fast enough (which is still easy as fuck). This is why Protoss is the relaxing race, and why it's considered the "casual" race.
Like i said before, the protoss race is balanced on the assumption of perfect ffs, 1 missed ff and u lose. If godly perfect ffs are so easy and so overpowered how come protoss isn't dominating? Thats exactly of an example of a simple mistake that will cost you the game. 1 missed storm and you will lose the game. While only 1 emp that you did not dodge will make you unable to place down your 'perfect ffs' or storm, causing you to lose the game. And do you really think that sentries and hts have infinite range? They are even worse than the infestor to use. If you have 10 sentries means you don't have as much other gas-intensive units that u absolutely need in your army usch as collosus and hts. And a few emps will make your 1000 gas of sentries useless. So please tell me, whats so unforgiving about engaging as terran in tvp?
difficulty =/= balance
Perfect forcefields are easy, but they don't win you the game. Other races know how to deal with them (eg. on close position shattered temple zvp end the game before protoss has 5 sentries or using medivacs to lift units).
As for your other complaints, 1 missed ff does not mean a loss. Please stop saying this bullshit. 1 missed storm also does not mean a loss, it simply means the engagement will be less effective for you. There's a difference between your losing half your MMM ball or you entire flock of mutas, compared to "losing a storm". Meanwhile if you think one EMP ends the game for you, well I heard spreading your units is pretty good. Although I'm sure that pre positioning before a battle might take a bit too much micro for the typical protoss. As for sentries cutting into your gas units... really? Have you never seen a typical 3gate sentry expand in ZvP? A shitload amount of sentries is not hard to get. Tier 1 Units don't take much of a commitment believe it or not! In fact it's completely standard to have so many sentries. Finally, one of your other ignorant statements is the range of forcefields and storms: Fungal Growth is 7 range for a full fungal. Force Fields and Storms are both 9 range.
Oh and before I have to cringe again at one of these posts and actually wonder why I'm bothering to even argue... difficulty =/= balance
Your ignorant if you think that missing a FF will never lose a protoss a game. And yes, a bad storm can also lose you a game. And man toss have it easy mode, they only need a perfect spread on their army so that single emp will not annihilate you. I'm talking about high-level protoss, where spreading is a must, and happens every fucking engagement. And if you don't sperad sufficiently, or have a slightly bad concave, you will lose the game to the a-moving mm ball after you've been emped by the multiple ghosts.
Also of course you need fuckin sentries, I have no clue what your on about. Like I've been saying many times, they are the clutch behind the toss army without them we would have a 0% win ratio.
For me personally, I decided to play Protoss because I thought I'd have an easier time handling workers (you know, how you can get them back to mining right away after warping in a building) - keep in mind, this was before I learnt about queuing up commands with Shift...
On August 11 2011 13:19 Grampz wrote: so many upset nerds in this thread that i cant even post my opinion without getting flamed by incoherent arguements. sad but thats the lick of these kinds of discussion threads
Haters gonna hate. Why enjoy playing your own race when you can rage at other people for the race they play?
Protoss is easy because it offers less options to perform APM intensive tasks and advanced multi tasking, such as drops and multi pronged attacks. wich is also why it is the weakest race.
Its way easier to drive a Vespa than a formula 1 car, buts also much slower and earns you less money.
On August 11 2011 13:19 Grampz wrote: so many upset nerds in this thread that i cant even post my opinion without getting flamed by incoherent arguements. sad but thats the lick of these kinds of discussion threads
Haters gonna hate. Why enjoy playing your own race when you can rage at other people for the race they play?
I can't believe the amount of misinformation and ridiculous accusations going on in here. This has turned into a letting of steam from losing to protoss thread. In all honesty all three races are pretty equal in terms of difficulty and how good each is. The game is actually pretty balanced even if you get frustrated but certain units/spells of each race.
I think that people get don't like playing against certain aspects of protoss such as their warpgate mechanic, sentry forcefields, and colossus. But each of these three aspects have their drawbacks that are probably overlooked. These are probably some of the biggest issues players have playing against protoss. I will try to defend protoss without attacking terran or zerg because it's too difficult to compare certain aspects of all the races as each race works as a whole.
Warpgates are good for instant reinforcements but remember this actually requires a proxy pylon to get up and warpins always take away from a micro battle because you have to click each unit that you need to warp in. Warpgates are impossible to que up units and during important battles macro often slips. Having units warping in near the battle is good but it's tough to not miss a warp in especially during a battle and also micro slips while warping in.
Forcefields are very good but Protoss needs them. Protoss lives and dies by the forcefield. Whether it's early game preventing a rush up the ramp or mid/late game zoning out roaches, this is one spell that is necessary for protoss to stay on par with the other races.
Colossi are very good and actually don't require much micro at all. However, their drawback is the player's vulnerability when they go for colossi. They aren't that good until a player gets about 4 of them with range. 1 robo facility, 1 robo bay, 4 Colossi, and range is a very expensive investment and there is a good timing they are more vulnerable to an attack before they get a good number on the field.
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
You do realise that the entire protoss army is weak and relies on perfect ffs to be some-what effective. Tell me, how are ffs gonna save you from 3-pronged mm drops?
Did you not see my (fclick fclick fclick). Perfect forcefields are fucking simple. Fclick in the middle of his unit ball and you're safe.
For 3 pronged MMM drops you simply position your army well, make some cannons, and use something called "the warp in" function. I heard it's pretty good.
On August 11 2011 12:44 Flameling wrote:
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
What would you call "hard" micro? I don't find any other micro intensive unit in Terran and Zerg that's harder than blink micro.
Something that can actually cost you the game if you make a mistake. Tanks being unsieged, marines not being spread well enough, getting trapped behind forcefields, Mutalisks not magic boxing, banelings inefficiently detonating, Infestors getting into range and dying instantly.
I'm not talking about early game, any race apart from Terran have it hell early game (although fclicking is still pretty easy). but in the midgame to lategame there's nothing Protoss can do that can cost them the game instantly. Miss some forcefields? By this point you have about full energy 10+ sentries so you shouldn't be worried. And pressing B continuously, believe it or not, will not cost you the game if you don't do it fast enough (which is still easy as fuck). This is why Protoss is the relaxing race, and why it's considered the "casual" race.
Like i said before, the protoss race is balanced on the assumption of perfect ffs, 1 missed ff and u lose. If godly perfect ffs are so easy and so overpowered how come protoss isn't dominating? Thats exactly of an example of a simple mistake that will cost you the game. 1 missed storm and you will lose the game. While only 1 emp that you did not dodge will make you unable to place down your 'perfect ffs' or storm, causing you to lose the game. And do you really think that sentries and hts have infinite range? They are even worse than the infestor to use. If you have 10 sentries means you don't have as much other gas-intensive units that u absolutely need in your army usch as collosus and hts. And a few emps will make your 1000 gas of sentries useless. So please tell me, whats so unforgiving about engaging as terran in tvp?
difficulty =/= balance
Perfect forcefields are easy, but they don't win you the game. Other races know how to deal with them (eg. on close position shattered temple zvp end the game before protoss has 5 sentries or using medivacs to lift units).
As for your other complaints, 1 missed ff does not mean a loss. Please stop saying this bullshit. 1 missed storm also does not mean a loss, it simply means the engagement will be less effective for you. There's a difference between your losing half your MMM ball or you entire flock of mutas, compared to "losing a storm". Meanwhile if you think one EMP ends the game for you, well I heard spreading your units is pretty good. Although I'm sure that pre positioning before a battle might take a bit too much micro for the typical protoss. As for sentries cutting into your gas units... really? Have you never seen a typical 3gate sentry expand in ZvP? A shitload amount of sentries is not hard to get. Tier 1 Units don't take much of a commitment believe it or not! In fact it's completely standard to have so many sentries. Finally, one of your other ignorant statements is the range of forcefields and storms: Fungal Growth is 7 range for a full fungal. Force Fields and Storms are both 9 range.
Oh and before I have to cringe again at one of these posts and actually wonder why I'm bothering to even argue... difficulty =/= balance
Your ignorant if you think that missing a FF will never lose a protoss a game. And yes, a bad storm can also lose you a game. And man toss have it easy mode, they only need a perfect spread on their army so that single emp will not annihilate you. I'm talking about high-level protoss, where spreading is a must, and happens every fucking engagement. And if you don't sperad sufficiently, or have a slightly bad concave, you will lose the game to the a-moving mm ball after you've been emped by the multiple ghosts.
Also of course you need fuckin sentries, I have no clue what your on about. Like I've been saying many times, they are the clutch behind the toss army without them we would have a 0% win ratio.
Ok seriously stop pretending your special with needing to spread for emp please. Try not splitting and spreading marines vs Fungal and Banes Instant death or EMP. I would take EMP any day...
FF is the only thing you need to do with Colossi focused builds so why shouldn't they be required to be good if it's ALL you have to do micro wise?
Regardless every race has its strengths and weaknesses and this topic is stupid as fuck and should have been closed the moment it was opened nothing constructive is ever said in these threads it's always the exact same thing over and over and over.
On August 11 2011 13:33 quiet noise wrote: Protoss is easy because it offers less options to perform APM intensive tasks and advanced multi tasking, such as drops and multi pronged attacks. wich is also why it is the weakest race.
Its way easier to drive a Vespa than a formula 1 car, buts also much slower and earns you less money.
Good argument, because hotkeying a medivac and shift clicking requires a ton of skill right
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
You do realise that the entire protoss army is weak and relies on perfect ffs to be some-what effective. Tell me, how are ffs gonna save you from 3-pronged mm drops?
Did you not see my (fclick fclick fclick). Perfect forcefields are fucking simple. Fclick in the middle of his unit ball and you're safe.
For 3 pronged MMM drops you simply position your army well, make some cannons, and use something called "the warp in" function. I heard it's pretty good.
On August 11 2011 12:44 Flameling wrote:
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
What would you call "hard" micro? I don't find any other micro intensive unit in Terran and Zerg that's harder than blink micro.
Something that can actually cost you the game if you make a mistake. Tanks being unsieged, marines not being spread well enough, getting trapped behind forcefields, Mutalisks not magic boxing, banelings inefficiently detonating, Infestors getting into range and dying instantly.
I'm not talking about early game, any race apart from Terran have it hell early game (although fclicking is still pretty easy). but in the midgame to lategame there's nothing Protoss can do that can cost them the game instantly. Miss some forcefields? By this point you have about full energy 10+ sentries so you shouldn't be worried. And pressing B continuously, believe it or not, will not cost you the game if you don't do it fast enough (which is still easy as fuck). This is why Protoss is the relaxing race, and why it's considered the "casual" race.
Like i said before, the protoss race is balanced on the assumption of perfect ffs, 1 missed ff and u lose. If godly perfect ffs are so easy and so overpowered how come protoss isn't dominating? Thats exactly of an example of a simple mistake that will cost you the game. 1 missed storm and you will lose the game. While only 1 emp that you did not dodge will make you unable to place down your 'perfect ffs' or storm, causing you to lose the game. And do you really think that sentries and hts have infinite range? They are even worse than the infestor to use. If you have 10 sentries means you don't have as much other gas-intensive units that u absolutely need in your army usch as collosus and hts. And a few emps will make your 1000 gas of sentries useless. So please tell me, whats so unforgiving about engaging as terran in tvp?
difficulty =/= balance
Perfect forcefields are easy, but they don't win you the game. Other races know how to deal with them (eg. on close position shattered temple zvp end the game before protoss has 5 sentries or using medivacs to lift units).
As for your other complaints, 1 missed ff does not mean a loss. Please stop saying this bullshit. 1 missed storm also does not mean a loss, it simply means the engagement will be less effective for you. There's a difference between your losing half your MMM ball or you entire flock of mutas, compared to "losing a storm". Meanwhile if you think one EMP ends the game for you, well I heard spreading your units is pretty good. Although I'm sure that pre positioning before a battle might take a bit too much micro for the typical protoss. As for sentries cutting into your gas units... really? Have you never seen a typical 3gate sentry expand in ZvP? A shitload amount of sentries is not hard to get. Tier 1 Units don't take much of a commitment believe it or not! In fact it's completely standard to have so many sentries. Finally, one of your other ignorant statements is the range of forcefields and storms: Fungal Growth is 7 range for a full fungal. Force Fields and Storms are both 9 range.
Oh and before I have to cringe again at one of these posts and actually wonder why I'm bothering to even argue... difficulty =/= balance
Your ignorant if you think that missing a FF will never lose a protoss a game. And yes, a bad storm can also lose you a game. And man toss have it easy mode, they only need a perfect spread on their army so that single emp will not annihilate you. I'm talking about high-level protoss, where spreading is a must, and happens every fucking engagement. And if you don't sperad sufficiently, or have a slightly bad concave, you will lose the game to the a-moving mm ball after you've been emped by the multiple ghosts.
Also of course you need fuckin sentries, I have no clue what your on about. Like I've been saying many times, they are the clutch behind the toss army without them we would have a 0% win ratio.
Due to lack of reading comphrension from you, I'll speak in a simpler way.
Missing ff in early game, bad Missing ff in mid to late game, doesn't matter (you have a shitload of sentries, 1 forcefield won't make a difference) spread casters away from each other in deathball, easy
But what really got me pissed is that last sentence. When the fuck did I say you should stop using sentries? It's you who is the fucking retard that said you don't have 10+ sentries because of "gas intensive units"
As for concaves, Protoss has it by far the easiest. Why's that?
Your units don't take serious splash damage from anything Colossus have 9 Range
Do I have to go on are you going to keep trying to state your opinion against actual facts? Just look at what I said against why storms don't make a difference compared to micro errors from other races before you type "HURRR 1 STORM CAN COST YOU THE GAME OK???". Seriously, read my post again. Fucking retards like you make me so frustrated.
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
You do realise that the entire protoss army is weak and relies on perfect ffs to be some-what effective. Tell me, how are ffs gonna save you from 3-pronged mm drops?
Did you not see my (fclick fclick fclick). Perfect forcefields are fucking simple. Fclick in the middle of his unit ball and you're safe.
For 3 pronged MMM drops you simply position your army well, make some cannons, and use something called "the warp in" function. I heard it's pretty good.
On August 11 2011 12:44 Flameling wrote:
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
What would you call "hard" micro? I don't find any other micro intensive unit in Terran and Zerg that's harder than blink micro.
Something that can actually cost you the game if you make a mistake. Tanks being unsieged, marines not being spread well enough, getting trapped behind forcefields, Mutalisks not magic boxing, banelings inefficiently detonating, Infestors getting into range and dying instantly.
I'm not talking about early game, any race apart from Terran have it hell early game (although fclicking is still pretty easy). but in the midgame to lategame there's nothing Protoss can do that can cost them the game instantly. Miss some forcefields? By this point you have about full energy 10+ sentries so you shouldn't be worried. And pressing B continuously, believe it or not, will not cost you the game if you don't do it fast enough (which is still easy as fuck). This is why Protoss is the relaxing race, and why it's considered the "casual" race.
Like i said before, the protoss race is balanced on the assumption of perfect ffs, 1 missed ff and u lose. If godly perfect ffs are so easy and so overpowered how come protoss isn't dominating? Thats exactly of an example of a simple mistake that will cost you the game. 1 missed storm and you will lose the game. While only 1 emp that you did not dodge will make you unable to place down your 'perfect ffs' or storm, causing you to lose the game. And do you really think that sentries and hts have infinite range? They are even worse than the infestor to use. If you have 10 sentries means you don't have as much other gas-intensive units that u absolutely need in your army usch as collosus and hts. And a few emps will make your 1000 gas of sentries useless. So please tell me, whats so unforgiving about engaging as terran in tvp?
difficulty =/= balance
Perfect forcefields are easy, but they don't win you the game. Other races know how to deal with them (eg. on close position shattered temple zvp end the game before protoss has 5 sentries or using medivacs to lift units).
As for your other complaints, 1 missed ff does not mean a loss. Please stop saying this bullshit. 1 missed storm also does not mean a loss, it simply means the engagement will be less effective for you. There's a difference between your losing half your MMM ball or you entire flock of mutas, compared to "losing a storm". Meanwhile if you think one EMP ends the game for you, well I heard spreading your units is pretty good. Although I'm sure that pre positioning before a battle might take a bit too much micro for the typical protoss. As for sentries cutting into your gas units... really? Have you never seen a typical 3gate sentry expand in ZvP? A shitload amount of sentries is not hard to get. Tier 1 Units don't take much of a commitment believe it or not! In fact it's completely standard to have so many sentries. Finally, one of your other ignorant statements is the range of forcefields and storms: Fungal Growth is 7 range for a full fungal. Force Fields and Storms are both 9 range.
Oh and before I have to cringe again at one of these posts and actually wonder why I'm bothering to even argue... difficulty =/= balance
Your ignorant if you think that missing a FF will never lose a protoss a game. And yes, a bad storm can also lose you a game. And man toss have it easy mode, they only need a perfect spread on their army so that single emp will not annihilate you. I'm talking about high-level protoss, where spreading is a must, and happens every fucking engagement. And if you don't sperad sufficiently, or have a slightly bad concave, you will lose the game to the a-moving mm ball after you've been emped by the multiple ghosts.
Also of course you need fuckin sentries, I have no clue what your on about. Like I've been saying many times, they are the clutch behind the toss army without them we would have a 0% win ratio.
Ok seriously stop pretending your special with needing to spread for emp please. Try not splitting and spreading marines vs Fungal and Banes Instant death or EMP. I would take EMP any day...
FF is the only thing you need to do with Colossi focused builds so why shouldn't they be required to be good if it's ALL you have to do micro wise?
Regardless every race has its strengths and weaknesses and this topic is stupid as fuck and should have been closed the moment it was opened nothing constructive is ever said in these threads it's always the exact same thing over and over and over.
/leavingandneverreturning
I never said that protoss is the only race thats hard to play. Instead im arguing against an idiot who thinks that protoss can be won with by having one hand down your pants.
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
You do realise that the entire protoss army is weak and relies on perfect ffs to be some-what effective. Tell me, how are ffs gonna save you from 3-pronged mm drops?
Did you not see my (fclick fclick fclick). Perfect forcefields are fucking simple. Fclick in the middle of his unit ball and you're safe.
For 3 pronged MMM drops you simply position your army well, make some cannons, and use something called "the warp in" function. I heard it's pretty good.
On August 11 2011 12:44 Flameling wrote:
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
What would you call "hard" micro? I don't find any other micro intensive unit in Terran and Zerg that's harder than blink micro.
Something that can actually cost you the game if you make a mistake. Tanks being unsieged, marines not being spread well enough, getting trapped behind forcefields, Mutalisks not magic boxing, banelings inefficiently detonating, Infestors getting into range and dying instantly.
I'm not talking about early game, any race apart from Terran have it hell early game (although fclicking is still pretty easy). but in the midgame to lategame there's nothing Protoss can do that can cost them the game instantly. Miss some forcefields? By this point you have about full energy 10+ sentries so you shouldn't be worried. And pressing B continuously, believe it or not, will not cost you the game if you don't do it fast enough (which is still easy as fuck). This is why Protoss is the relaxing race, and why it's considered the "casual" race.
Like i said before, the protoss race is balanced on the assumption of perfect ffs, 1 missed ff and u lose. If godly perfect ffs are so easy and so overpowered how come protoss isn't dominating? Thats exactly of an example of a simple mistake that will cost you the game. 1 missed storm and you will lose the game. While only 1 emp that you did not dodge will make you unable to place down your 'perfect ffs' or storm, causing you to lose the game. And do you really think that sentries and hts have infinite range? They are even worse than the infestor to use. If you have 10 sentries means you don't have as much other gas-intensive units that u absolutely need in your army usch as collosus and hts. And a few emps will make your 1000 gas of sentries useless. So please tell me, whats so unforgiving about engaging as terran in tvp?
difficulty =/= balance
Perfect forcefields are easy, but they don't win you the game. Other races know how to deal with them (eg. on close position shattered temple zvp end the game before protoss has 5 sentries or using medivacs to lift units).
As for your other complaints, 1 missed ff does not mean a loss. Please stop saying this bullshit. 1 missed storm also does not mean a loss, it simply means the engagement will be less effective for you. There's a difference between your losing half your MMM ball or you entire flock of mutas, compared to "losing a storm". Meanwhile if you think one EMP ends the game for you, well I heard spreading your units is pretty good. Although I'm sure that pre positioning before a battle might take a bit too much micro for the typical protoss. As for sentries cutting into your gas units... really? Have you never seen a typical 3gate sentry expand in ZvP? A shitload amount of sentries is not hard to get. Tier 1 Units don't take much of a commitment believe it or not! In fact it's completely standard to have so many sentries. Finally, one of your other ignorant statements is the range of forcefields and storms: Fungal Growth is 7 range for a full fungal. Force Fields and Storms are both 9 range.
Oh and before I have to cringe again at one of these posts and actually wonder why I'm bothering to even argue... difficulty =/= balance
Your ignorant if you think that missing a FF will never lose a protoss a game. And yes, a bad storm can also lose you a game. And man toss have it easy mode, they only need a perfect spread on their army so that single emp will not annihilate you. I'm talking about high-level protoss, where spreading is a must, and happens every fucking engagement. And if you don't sperad sufficiently, or have a slightly bad concave, you will lose the game to the a-moving mm ball after you've been emped by the multiple ghosts.
Also of course you need fuckin sentries, I have no clue what your on about. Like I've been saying many times, they are the clutch behind the toss army without them we would have a 0% win ratio.
Ok seriously stop pretending your special with needing to spread for emp please. Try not splitting and spreading marines vs Fungal and Banes Instant death or EMP. I would take EMP any day...
FF is the only thing you need to do with Colossi focused builds so why shouldn't they be required to be good if it's ALL you have to do micro wise?
Regardless every race has its strengths and weaknesses and this topic is stupid as fuck and should have been closed the moment it was opened nothing constructive is ever said in these threads it's always the exact same thing over and over and over.
/leavingandneverreturning
Splitting marines against Zerg is far from necessary. You are supposed to have your tanks target fire the banelings. If your tanks are dead and your splitting marines against banes something has gone horribly wrong.
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
You do realise that the entire protoss army is weak and relies on perfect ffs to be some-what effective. Tell me, how are ffs gonna save you from 3-pronged mm drops?
Did you not see my (fclick fclick fclick). Perfect forcefields are fucking simple. Fclick in the middle of his unit ball and you're safe.
For 3 pronged MMM drops you simply position your army well, make some cannons, and use something called "the warp in" function. I heard it's pretty good.
On August 11 2011 12:44 Flameling wrote:
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
What would you call "hard" micro? I don't find any other micro intensive unit in Terran and Zerg that's harder than blink micro.
Something that can actually cost you the game if you make a mistake. Tanks being unsieged, marines not being spread well enough, getting trapped behind forcefields, Mutalisks not magic boxing, banelings inefficiently detonating, Infestors getting into range and dying instantly.
I'm not talking about early game, any race apart from Terran have it hell early game (although fclicking is still pretty easy). but in the midgame to lategame there's nothing Protoss can do that can cost them the game instantly. Miss some forcefields? By this point you have about full energy 10+ sentries so you shouldn't be worried. And pressing B continuously, believe it or not, will not cost you the game if you don't do it fast enough (which is still easy as fuck). This is why Protoss is the relaxing race, and why it's considered the "casual" race.
Like i said before, the protoss race is balanced on the assumption of perfect ffs, 1 missed ff and u lose. If godly perfect ffs are so easy and so overpowered how come protoss isn't dominating? Thats exactly of an example of a simple mistake that will cost you the game. 1 missed storm and you will lose the game. While only 1 emp that you did not dodge will make you unable to place down your 'perfect ffs' or storm, causing you to lose the game. And do you really think that sentries and hts have infinite range? They are even worse than the infestor to use. If you have 10 sentries means you don't have as much other gas-intensive units that u absolutely need in your army usch as collosus and hts. And a few emps will make your 1000 gas of sentries useless. So please tell me, whats so unforgiving about engaging as terran in tvp?
difficulty =/= balance
Perfect forcefields are easy, but they don't win you the game. Other races know how to deal with them (eg. on close position shattered temple zvp end the game before protoss has 5 sentries or using medivacs to lift units).
As for your other complaints, 1 missed ff does not mean a loss. Please stop saying this bullshit. 1 missed storm also does not mean a loss, it simply means the engagement will be less effective for you. There's a difference between your losing half your MMM ball or you entire flock of mutas, compared to "losing a storm". Meanwhile if you think one EMP ends the game for you, well I heard spreading your units is pretty good. Although I'm sure that pre positioning before a battle might take a bit too much micro for the typical protoss. As for sentries cutting into your gas units... really? Have you never seen a typical 3gate sentry expand in ZvP? A shitload amount of sentries is not hard to get. Tier 1 Units don't take much of a commitment believe it or not! In fact it's completely standard to have so many sentries. Finally, one of your other ignorant statements is the range of forcefields and storms: Fungal Growth is 7 range for a full fungal. Force Fields and Storms are both 9 range.
Oh and before I have to cringe again at one of these posts and actually wonder why I'm bothering to even argue... difficulty =/= balance
Your ignorant if you think that missing a FF will never lose a protoss a game. And yes, a bad storm can also lose you a game. And man toss have it easy mode, they only need a perfect spread on their army so that single emp will not annihilate you. I'm talking about high-level protoss, where spreading is a must, and happens every fucking engagement. And if you don't sperad sufficiently, or have a slightly bad concave, you will lose the game to the a-moving mm ball after you've been emped by the multiple ghosts.
Also of course you need fuckin sentries, I have no clue what your on about. Like I've been saying many times, they are the clutch behind the toss army without them we would have a 0% win ratio.
Ok seriously stop pretending your special with needing to spread for emp please. Try not splitting and spreading marines vs Fungal and Banes Instant death or EMP. I would take EMP any day...
FF is the only thing you need to do with Colossi focused builds so why shouldn't they be required to be good if it's ALL you have to do micro wise?
Regardless every race has its strengths and weaknesses and this topic is stupid as fuck and should have been closed the moment it was opened nothing constructive is ever said in these threads it's always the exact same thing over and over and over.
/leavingandneverreturning
Protoss aren't trying to pretend they are special. We aren't saying we are harder to play than any other race, just trying to get you fucking Zerg/Terran QQers to admit we aren't herp derp easy mode.
And yes, this thread is a joke. Makes me wish for the days before SC2 when you could have a thread like this and it wouldn't be a whole bunch of anonymous low level players angry at their latest loss to some shit they could have beaten with one hand tied behind their back if they knew how to play.
Discussions like this are no longer possible on TL. SC2 brought some cool people in, and some much needed numbers. Unfortunately, seems like most of those numbers are just deadweight.
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
You do realise that the entire protoss army is weak and relies on perfect ffs to be some-what effective. Tell me, how are ffs gonna save you from 3-pronged mm drops?
Did you not see my (fclick fclick fclick). Perfect forcefields are fucking simple. Fclick in the middle of his unit ball and you're safe.
For 3 pronged MMM drops you simply position your army well, make some cannons, and use something called "the warp in" function. I heard it's pretty good.
On August 11 2011 12:44 Flameling wrote:
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
What would you call "hard" micro? I don't find any other micro intensive unit in Terran and Zerg that's harder than blink micro.
Something that can actually cost you the game if you make a mistake. Tanks being unsieged, marines not being spread well enough, getting trapped behind forcefields, Mutalisks not magic boxing, banelings inefficiently detonating, Infestors getting into range and dying instantly.
I'm not talking about early game, any race apart from Terran have it hell early game (although fclicking is still pretty easy). but in the midgame to lategame there's nothing Protoss can do that can cost them the game instantly. Miss some forcefields? By this point you have about full energy 10+ sentries so you shouldn't be worried. And pressing B continuously, believe it or not, will not cost you the game if you don't do it fast enough (which is still easy as fuck). This is why Protoss is the relaxing race, and why it's considered the "casual" race.
Like i said before, the protoss race is balanced on the assumption of perfect ffs, 1 missed ff and u lose. If godly perfect ffs are so easy and so overpowered how come protoss isn't dominating? Thats exactly of an example of a simple mistake that will cost you the game. 1 missed storm and you will lose the game. While only 1 emp that you did not dodge will make you unable to place down your 'perfect ffs' or storm, causing you to lose the game. And do you really think that sentries and hts have infinite range? They are even worse than the infestor to use. If you have 10 sentries means you don't have as much other gas-intensive units that u absolutely need in your army usch as collosus and hts. And a few emps will make your 1000 gas of sentries useless. So please tell me, whats so unforgiving about engaging as terran in tvp?
difficulty =/= balance
Perfect forcefields are easy, but they don't win you the game. Other races know how to deal with them (eg. on close position shattered temple zvp end the game before protoss has 5 sentries or using medivacs to lift units).
As for your other complaints, 1 missed ff does not mean a loss. Please stop saying this bullshit. 1 missed storm also does not mean a loss, it simply means the engagement will be less effective for you. There's a difference between your losing half your MMM ball or you entire flock of mutas, compared to "losing a storm". Meanwhile if you think one EMP ends the game for you, well I heard spreading your units is pretty good. Although I'm sure that pre positioning before a battle might take a bit too much micro for the typical protoss. As for sentries cutting into your gas units... really? Have you never seen a typical 3gate sentry expand in ZvP? A shitload amount of sentries is not hard to get. Tier 1 Units don't take much of a commitment believe it or not! In fact it's completely standard to have so many sentries. Finally, one of your other ignorant statements is the range of forcefields and storms: Fungal Growth is 7 range for a full fungal. Force Fields and Storms are both 9 range.
Oh and before I have to cringe again at one of these posts and actually wonder why I'm bothering to even argue... difficulty =/= balance
Your ignorant if you think that missing a FF will never lose a protoss a game. And yes, a bad storm can also lose you a game. And man toss have it easy mode, they only need a perfect spread on their army so that single emp will not annihilate you. I'm talking about high-level protoss, where spreading is a must, and happens every fucking engagement. And if you don't sperad sufficiently, or have a slightly bad concave, you will lose the game to the a-moving mm ball after you've been emped by the multiple ghosts.
Also of course you need fuckin sentries, I have no clue what your on about. Like I've been saying many times, they are the clutch behind the toss army without them we would have a 0% win ratio.
Due to lack of reading comphrension from you, I'll speak in a simpler way.
Missing ff in early game, bad Missing ff in mid to late game, doesn't matter (you have a shitload of sentries, 1 forcefield won't make a difference) spread casters away from each other in deathball, easy
But what really got me pissed is that last sentence. When the fuck did I say you should stop using sentries? It's you who is the fucking retard that said you don't have 10+ sentries because of "gas intensive units"
As for concaves, Protoss has it by far the easiest. Why's that?
Your units don't take serious splash damage from anything Colossus have 9 Range
Do I have to go on are you going to keep trying to state your opinion against actual facts? Just look at what I said against why storms don't make a difference compared to micro errors from other races. Seriously, read my post again. Fucking retards like you make me so frustrated.
optional: for after you 1a, hands off keyboard and celebrate!
that's why i play protoss, zerg is way too hard and u can't 1a seige tanks
This post wins the whole thread. And personally, i don't think protoss is necessary the easiest, it's just most of the people find it the easiest race, some people actually find zerg and terran easier etc.
On August 11 2011 13:38 KingFranX wrote: Honestly I play all 3 races, I can say Protoss is the easiest. Lets look at an engagement PvZ and TvZ..
Scenario: Zerg has banelings. lings, mutas
Terran: Make sure tanks always sieged, focus fire banelings, spread marines
Protoss: Blink stalkers away, cast forceshields. If you're using collosi + sentries basically all u do is spam f and a attack
Which sounds harder?
You forgot about the mass overlords with banelings inside them... and that stalkers do really terrible damage to the overlords that are barreling down on them and the expensive toss tech units. Forcefields will help keep the ground army back, but the 15 overlords loaded to the brim with banes definitely get their drop off.
Protoss is easier to pick up because they can reinforce anywhere with gateway units... which can often help stop an opponent from barreling in on you after a narrow army clash/exchange... but make no mistake, gateway units do not win the game anywhere past the early-mid game.
All three races have benefits and drawbacks... that's why there are three races. Each race has things that appear "easy" to others, but each race is darn near impossible to master. Protoss are getting absolutely smashed at the highest levels right now... but this may signal the need for a protoss renaissance.... I'm just curious what it will entail. The warpgate nerf may need to be overturned to help agains the 1-1-1 all in from terran... but I'm not quite sure about that one just yet. There will be some innovation, I'd just like to see what that may be. Carriers seem non-viable despite their on-paper stats... the mothership isn't very useful.... and warp prism harass is essentially a suicide mission so it gets awfully expensive. Maybe cannons out on the map might come into play... treating pylon power like creep tumours... hard to say. The pros will figure something out I'm sure though!
Zerg requires the most macro (i.e., queens) Terran requires the most micro (i.e., multi drops) Protoss is in the middle
The thing with Z is, if you screw up your micro with your army...at lower levels, it doesn't necessarily mean GG. You can macro up another army very fast (doesn't mean you'll always live)
With T, you have to be in several places at once when doing most strats. Yes most units are very strong, but a lot of them can die fairly easy.
Protoss, blink micro CAN be hard...but it is far from being the hardest. You know what's hard? Doing 2 drops then doing a marine split with your main army and then macroing up another army.
You know what's also hard? Macroing a lot of larve injects and keeping your eye on your mutas (harass/run).
You know what's easy? Being down 50 food to a Z then throwing down 5 storms and then 1a win or hiding DT/Void Ray tech.
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
You do realise that the entire protoss army is weak and relies on perfect ffs to be some-what effective. Tell me, how are ffs gonna save you from 3-pronged mm drops?
Did you not see my (fclick fclick fclick). Perfect forcefields are fucking simple. Fclick in the middle of his unit ball and you're safe.
For 3 pronged MMM drops you simply position your army well, make some cannons, and use something called "the warp in" function. I heard it's pretty good.
On August 11 2011 12:44 Flameling wrote:
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
What would you call "hard" micro? I don't find any other micro intensive unit in Terran and Zerg that's harder than blink micro.
Something that can actually cost you the game if you make a mistake. Tanks being unsieged, marines not being spread well enough, getting trapped behind forcefields, Mutalisks not magic boxing, banelings inefficiently detonating, Infestors getting into range and dying instantly.
I'm not talking about early game, any race apart from Terran have it hell early game (although fclicking is still pretty easy). but in the midgame to lategame there's nothing Protoss can do that can cost them the game instantly. Miss some forcefields? By this point you have about full energy 10+ sentries so you shouldn't be worried. And pressing B continuously, believe it or not, will not cost you the game if you don't do it fast enough (which is still easy as fuck). This is why Protoss is the relaxing race, and why it's considered the "casual" race.
Like i said before, the protoss race is balanced on the assumption of perfect ffs, 1 missed ff and u lose. If godly perfect ffs are so easy and so overpowered how come protoss isn't dominating? Thats exactly of an example of a simple mistake that will cost you the game. 1 missed storm and you will lose the game. While only 1 emp that you did not dodge will make you unable to place down your 'perfect ffs' or storm, causing you to lose the game. And do you really think that sentries and hts have infinite range? They are even worse than the infestor to use. If you have 10 sentries means you don't have as much other gas-intensive units that u absolutely need in your army usch as collosus and hts. And a few emps will make your 1000 gas of sentries useless. So please tell me, whats so unforgiving about engaging as terran in tvp?
difficulty =/= balance
Perfect forcefields are easy, but they don't win you the game. Other races know how to deal with them (eg. on close position shattered temple zvp end the game before protoss has 5 sentries or using medivacs to lift units).
As for your other complaints, 1 missed ff does not mean a loss. Please stop saying this bullshit. 1 missed storm also does not mean a loss, it simply means the engagement will be less effective for you. There's a difference between your losing half your MMM ball or you entire flock of mutas, compared to "losing a storm". Meanwhile if you think one EMP ends the game for you, well I heard spreading your units is pretty good. Although I'm sure that pre positioning before a battle might take a bit too much micro for the typical protoss. As for sentries cutting into your gas units... really? Have you never seen a typical 3gate sentry expand in ZvP? A shitload amount of sentries is not hard to get. Tier 1 Units don't take much of a commitment believe it or not! In fact it's completely standard to have so many sentries. Finally, one of your other ignorant statements is the range of forcefields and storms: Fungal Growth is 7 range for a full fungal. Force Fields and Storms are both 9 range.
Oh and before I have to cringe again at one of these posts and actually wonder why I'm bothering to even argue... difficulty =/= balance
Your ignorant if you think that missing a FF will never lose a protoss a game. And yes, a bad storm can also lose you a game. And man toss have it easy mode, they only need a perfect spread on their army so that single emp will not annihilate you. I'm talking about high-level protoss, where spreading is a must, and happens every fucking engagement. And if you don't sperad sufficiently, or have a slightly bad concave, you will lose the game to the a-moving mm ball after you've been emped by the multiple ghosts.
Also of course you need fuckin sentries, I have no clue what your on about. Like I've been saying many times, they are the clutch behind the toss army without them we would have a 0% win ratio.
Due to lack of reading comphrension from you, I'll speak in a simpler way.
Missing ff in early game, bad Missing ff in mid to late game, doesn't matter (you have a shitload of sentries, 1 forcefield won't make a difference) spread casters away from each other in deathball, easy
But what really got me pissed is that last sentence. When the fuck did I say you should stop using sentries? It's you who is the fucking retard that said you don't have 10+ sentries because of "gas intensive units"
As for concaves, Protoss has it by far the easiest. Why's that?
Your units don't take serious splash damage from anything Colossus have 9 Range
Do I have to go on are you going to keep trying to state your opinion against actual facts? Just look at what I said against why storms don't make a difference compared to micro errors from other races. Seriously, read my post again. Fucking retards like you make me so frustrated.
On August 11 2011 13:44 RedMorning wrote: Zerg requires the most macro (i.e., queens) Terran requires the most micro (i.e., multi drops) Protoss is in the middle
The thing with Z is, if you screw up your micro with your army...at lower levels, it doesn't necessarily mean GG. You can macro up another army very fast (doesn't mean you'll always live)
With T, you have to be in several places at once when doing most strats. Yes most units are very strong, but a lot of them can die fairly easy.
Protoss, blink micro CAN be hard...but it is far from being the hardest. You know what's hard? Doing 2 drops then doing a marine split with your main army and then macroing up another army.
You know what's also hard? Macroing a lot of larve injects and keeping your eye on your mutas (harass/run).
You know what's easy? Being down 50 food to a Z then throwing down 5 storms and then 1a win or hiding DT/Void Ray tech.
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
You do realise that the entire protoss army is weak and relies on perfect ffs to be some-what effective. Tell me, how are ffs gonna save you from 3-pronged mm drops?
Did you not see my (fclick fclick fclick). Perfect forcefields are fucking simple. Fclick in the middle of his unit ball and you're safe.
For 3 pronged MMM drops you simply position your army well, make some cannons, and use something called "the warp in" function. I heard it's pretty good.
On August 11 2011 12:44 Flameling wrote:
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
What would you call "hard" micro? I don't find any other micro intensive unit in Terran and Zerg that's harder than blink micro.
Something that can actually cost you the game if you make a mistake. Tanks being unsieged, marines not being spread well enough, getting trapped behind forcefields, Mutalisks not magic boxing, banelings inefficiently detonating, Infestors getting into range and dying instantly.
I'm not talking about early game, any race apart from Terran have it hell early game (although fclicking is still pretty easy). but in the midgame to lategame there's nothing Protoss can do that can cost them the game instantly. Miss some forcefields? By this point you have about full energy 10+ sentries so you shouldn't be worried. And pressing B continuously, believe it or not, will not cost you the game if you don't do it fast enough (which is still easy as fuck). This is why Protoss is the relaxing race, and why it's considered the "casual" race.
Like i said before, the protoss race is balanced on the assumption of perfect ffs, 1 missed ff and u lose. If godly perfect ffs are so easy and so overpowered how come protoss isn't dominating? Thats exactly of an example of a simple mistake that will cost you the game. 1 missed storm and you will lose the game. While only 1 emp that you did not dodge will make you unable to place down your 'perfect ffs' or storm, causing you to lose the game. And do you really think that sentries and hts have infinite range? They are even worse than the infestor to use. If you have 10 sentries means you don't have as much other gas-intensive units that u absolutely need in your army usch as collosus and hts. And a few emps will make your 1000 gas of sentries useless. So please tell me, whats so unforgiving about engaging as terran in tvp?
difficulty =/= balance
Perfect forcefields are easy, but they don't win you the game. Other races know how to deal with them (eg. on close position shattered temple zvp end the game before protoss has 5 sentries or using medivacs to lift units).
As for your other complaints, 1 missed ff does not mean a loss. Please stop saying this bullshit. 1 missed storm also does not mean a loss, it simply means the engagement will be less effective for you. There's a difference between your losing half your MMM ball or you entire flock of mutas, compared to "losing a storm". Meanwhile if you think one EMP ends the game for you, well I heard spreading your units is pretty good. Although I'm sure that pre positioning before a battle might take a bit too much micro for the typical protoss. As for sentries cutting into your gas units... really? Have you never seen a typical 3gate sentry expand in ZvP? A shitload amount of sentries is not hard to get. Tier 1 Units don't take much of a commitment believe it or not! In fact it's completely standard to have so many sentries. Finally, one of your other ignorant statements is the range of forcefields and storms: Fungal Growth is 7 range for a full fungal. Force Fields and Storms are both 9 range.
Oh and before I have to cringe again at one of these posts and actually wonder why I'm bothering to even argue... difficulty =/= balance
Your ignorant if you think that missing a FF will never lose a protoss a game. And yes, a bad storm can also lose you a game. And man toss have it easy mode, they only need a perfect spread on their army so that single emp will not annihilate you. I'm talking about high-level protoss, where spreading is a must, and happens every fucking engagement. And if you don't sperad sufficiently, or have a slightly bad concave, you will lose the game to the a-moving mm ball after you've been emped by the multiple ghosts.
Also of course you need fuckin sentries, I have no clue what your on about. Like I've been saying many times, they are the clutch behind the toss army without them we would have a 0% win ratio.
Due to lack of reading comphrension from you, I'll speak in a simpler way.
Missing ff in early game, bad Missing ff in mid to late game, doesn't matter (you have a shitload of sentries, 1 forcefield won't make a difference) spread casters away from each other in deathball, easy
But what really got me pissed is that last sentence. When the fuck did I say you should stop using sentries? It's you who is the fucking retard that said you don't have 10+ sentries because of "gas intensive units"
As for concaves, Protoss has it by far the easiest. Why's that?
Your units don't take serious splash damage from anything Colossus have 9 Range
Do I have to go on are you going to keep trying to state your opinion against actual facts? Just look at what I said against why storms don't make a difference compared to micro errors from other races. Seriously, read my post again. Fucking retards like you make me so frustrated.
On August 11 2011 13:44 RedMorning wrote: Protoss, blink micro CAN be hard...but it is far from being the hardest. You know what's hard? Doing 2 drops then doing a marine split with your main army and then macroing up another army.
You know whats harder? Somehow defending against 2 drops, then dancing your army keeping a perfect spread, then perfect ffs, perfect storms, perfect blinks, while macroing up another army
On August 11 2011 13:38 KingFranX wrote: Honestly I play all 3 races, I can say Protoss is the easiest. Lets look at an engagement PvZ and TvZ..
Scenario: Zerg has banelings. lings, mutas
Terran: Make sure tanks always sieged, focus fire banelings, spread marines
Protoss: Blink stalkers away, cast forceshields. If you're using collosi + sentries basically all u do is spam f and a attack
Which sounds harder?
Wow that was an incredible analysis. I think you probably have cleared up the subject and convinced everyone how easy Protoss is.
But seriously. You actually make Protoss sound the hardest.
"Zerg has X, Y, Z" is your description of their engagement.
Like, wait, what is your retarded point again? Because if you didn't preface it with Protoss sounds the easiest, I'm pretty sure just making 3 types of units and then proceeding to do absolutely nothing with them sounds the easiest.
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
You do realise that the entire protoss army is weak and relies on perfect ffs to be some-what effective. Tell me, how are ffs gonna save you from 3-pronged mm drops?
Did you not see my (fclick fclick fclick). Perfect forcefields are fucking simple. Fclick in the middle of his unit ball and you're safe.
For 3 pronged MMM drops you simply position your army well, make some cannons, and use something called "the warp in" function. I heard it's pretty good.
On August 11 2011 12:44 Flameling wrote:
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
What would you call "hard" micro? I don't find any other micro intensive unit in Terran and Zerg that's harder than blink micro.
Something that can actually cost you the game if you make a mistake. Tanks being unsieged, marines not being spread well enough, getting trapped behind forcefields, Mutalisks not magic boxing, banelings inefficiently detonating, Infestors getting into range and dying instantly.
I'm not talking about early game, any race apart from Terran have it hell early game (although fclicking is still pretty easy). but in the midgame to lategame there's nothing Protoss can do that can cost them the game instantly. Miss some forcefields? By this point you have about full energy 10+ sentries so you shouldn't be worried. And pressing B continuously, believe it or not, will not cost you the game if you don't do it fast enough (which is still easy as fuck). This is why Protoss is the relaxing race, and why it's considered the "casual" race.
Like i said before, the protoss race is balanced on the assumption of perfect ffs, 1 missed ff and u lose. If godly perfect ffs are so easy and so overpowered how come protoss isn't dominating? Thats exactly of an example of a simple mistake that will cost you the game. 1 missed storm and you will lose the game. While only 1 emp that you did not dodge will make you unable to place down your 'perfect ffs' or storm, causing you to lose the game. And do you really think that sentries and hts have infinite range? They are even worse than the infestor to use. If you have 10 sentries means you don't have as much other gas-intensive units that u absolutely need in your army usch as collosus and hts. And a few emps will make your 1000 gas of sentries useless. So please tell me, whats so unforgiving about engaging as terran in tvp?
difficulty =/= balance
Perfect forcefields are easy, but they don't win you the game. Other races know how to deal with them (eg. on close position shattered temple zvp end the game before protoss has 5 sentries or using medivacs to lift units).
As for your other complaints, 1 missed ff does not mean a loss. Please stop saying this bullshit. 1 missed storm also does not mean a loss, it simply means the engagement will be less effective for you. There's a difference between your losing half your MMM ball or you entire flock of mutas, compared to "losing a storm". Meanwhile if you think one EMP ends the game for you, well I heard spreading your units is pretty good. Although I'm sure that pre positioning before a battle might take a bit too much micro for the typical protoss. As for sentries cutting into your gas units... really? Have you never seen a typical 3gate sentry expand in ZvP? A shitload amount of sentries is not hard to get. Tier 1 Units don't take much of a commitment believe it or not! In fact it's completely standard to have so many sentries. Finally, one of your other ignorant statements is the range of forcefields and storms: Fungal Growth is 7 range for a full fungal. Force Fields and Storms are both 9 range.
Oh and before I have to cringe again at one of these posts and actually wonder why I'm bothering to even argue... difficulty =/= balance
Your ignorant if you think that missing a FF will never lose a protoss a game. And yes, a bad storm can also lose you a game. And man toss have it easy mode, they only need a perfect spread on their army so that single emp will not annihilate you. I'm talking about high-level protoss, where spreading is a must, and happens every fucking engagement. And if you don't sperad sufficiently, or have a slightly bad concave, you will lose the game to the a-moving mm ball after you've been emped by the multiple ghosts.
Also of course you need fuckin sentries, I have no clue what your on about. Like I've been saying many times, they are the clutch behind the toss army without them we would have a 0% win ratio.
Due to lack of reading comphrension from you, I'll speak in a simpler way.
Missing ff in early game, bad Missing ff in mid to late game, doesn't matter (you have a shitload of sentries, 1 forcefield won't make a difference) spread casters away from each other in deathball, easy
But what really got me pissed is that last sentence. When the fuck did I say you should stop using sentries? It's you who is the fucking retard that said you don't have 10+ sentries because of "gas intensive units"
As for concaves, Protoss has it by far the easiest. Why's that?
Your units don't take serious splash damage from anything Colossus have 9 Range
Do I have to go on are you going to keep trying to state your opinion against actual facts? Just look at what I said against why storms don't make a difference compared to micro errors from other races. Seriously, read my post again. Fucking retards like you make me so frustrated.
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
You do realise that the entire protoss army is weak and relies on perfect ffs to be some-what effective. Tell me, how are ffs gonna save you from 3-pronged mm drops?
Did you not see my (fclick fclick fclick). Perfect forcefields are fucking simple. Fclick in the middle of his unit ball and you're safe.
For 3 pronged MMM drops you simply position your army well, make some cannons, and use something called "the warp in" function. I heard it's pretty good.
On August 11 2011 12:44 Flameling wrote:
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
What would you call "hard" micro? I don't find any other micro intensive unit in Terran and Zerg that's harder than blink micro.
Something that can actually cost you the game if you make a mistake. Tanks being unsieged, marines not being spread well enough, getting trapped behind forcefields, Mutalisks not magic boxing, banelings inefficiently detonating, Infestors getting into range and dying instantly.
I'm not talking about early game, any race apart from Terran have it hell early game (although fclicking is still pretty easy). but in the midgame to lategame there's nothing Protoss can do that can cost them the game instantly. Miss some forcefields? By this point you have about full energy 10+ sentries so you shouldn't be worried. And pressing B continuously, believe it or not, will not cost you the game if you don't do it fast enough (which is still easy as fuck). This is why Protoss is the relaxing race, and why it's considered the "casual" race.
Like i said before, the protoss race is balanced on the assumption of perfect ffs, 1 missed ff and u lose. If godly perfect ffs are so easy and so overpowered how come protoss isn't dominating? Thats exactly of an example of a simple mistake that will cost you the game. 1 missed storm and you will lose the game. While only 1 emp that you did not dodge will make you unable to place down your 'perfect ffs' or storm, causing you to lose the game. And do you really think that sentries and hts have infinite range? They are even worse than the infestor to use. If you have 10 sentries means you don't have as much other gas-intensive units that u absolutely need in your army usch as collosus and hts. And a few emps will make your 1000 gas of sentries useless. So please tell me, whats so unforgiving about engaging as terran in tvp?
difficulty =/= balance
Perfect forcefields are easy, but they don't win you the game. Other races know how to deal with them (eg. on close position shattered temple zvp end the game before protoss has 5 sentries or using medivacs to lift units).
As for your other complaints, 1 missed ff does not mean a loss. Please stop saying this bullshit. 1 missed storm also does not mean a loss, it simply means the engagement will be less effective for you. There's a difference between your losing half your MMM ball or you entire flock of mutas, compared to "losing a storm". Meanwhile if you think one EMP ends the game for you, well I heard spreading your units is pretty good. Although I'm sure that pre positioning before a battle might take a bit too much micro for the typical protoss. As for sentries cutting into your gas units... really? Have you never seen a typical 3gate sentry expand in ZvP? A shitload amount of sentries is not hard to get. Tier 1 Units don't take much of a commitment believe it or not! In fact it's completely standard to have so many sentries. Finally, one of your other ignorant statements is the range of forcefields and storms: Fungal Growth is 7 range for a full fungal. Force Fields and Storms are both 9 range.
Oh and before I have to cringe again at one of these posts and actually wonder why I'm bothering to even argue... difficulty =/= balance
Your ignorant if you think that missing a FF will never lose a protoss a game. And yes, a bad storm can also lose you a game. And man toss have it easy mode, they only need a perfect spread on their army so that single emp will not annihilate you. I'm talking about high-level protoss, where spreading is a must, and happens every fucking engagement. And if you don't sperad sufficiently, or have a slightly bad concave, you will lose the game to the a-moving mm ball after you've been emped by the multiple ghosts.
Also of course you need fuckin sentries, I have no clue what your on about. Like I've been saying many times, they are the clutch behind the toss army without them we would have a 0% win ratio.
Due to lack of reading comphrension from you, I'll speak in a simpler way.
Missing ff in early game, bad Missing ff in mid to late game, doesn't matter (you have a shitload of sentries, 1 forcefield won't make a difference) spread casters away from each other in deathball, easy
But what really got me pissed is that last sentence. When the fuck did I say you should stop using sentries? It's you who is the fucking retard that said you don't have 10+ sentries because of "gas intensive units"
As for concaves, Protoss has it by far the easiest. Why's that?
Your units don't take serious splash damage from anything Colossus have 9 Range
Do I have to go on are you going to keep trying to state your opinion against actual facts? Just look at what I said against why storms don't make a difference compared to micro errors from other races. Seriously, read my post again. Fucking retards like you make me so frustrated.
how many fucking times do I have to repeat myself? Mods please permanently ban me so I don't have to fucking deal with this stupid bullshit anymore.
Speaking of stupid bullshit, weren't you the one that said that sieging tanks is "hard micro"?
Yes, I'm sure any Zerg player will let you waltz right in, also giving you enough time to spread and siege tanks any time you want right outside his natural.
Missing a siege costs you the game, missing a forcefield doesn't.
On August 11 2011 13:38 KingFranX wrote: Honestly I play all 3 races, I can say Protoss is the easiest. Lets look at an engagement PvZ and TvZ..
Scenario: Zerg has banelings. lings, mutas
Terran: Make sure tanks always sieged, focus fire banelings, spread marines
Protoss: Blink stalkers away, cast forceshields. If you're using collosi + sentries basically all u do is spam f and a attack
Which sounds harder?
Wow that was an incredible analysis. I think you probably have cleared up the subject and convinced everyone how easy Protoss is.
But seriously. You actually make Protoss sound the hardest.
"Zerg has X, Y, Z" is your description of their engagement.
Like, wait, what is your retarded point again? Because if you didn't preface it with Protoss sounds the easiest, I'm pretty sure just making 3 types of units and then proceeding to do absolutely nothing with them sounds the easiest.
I have no idea what you're trying to argue.. just missed the point. Also stop being so mad why do you care what I think
On August 11 2011 13:38 KingFranX wrote: Honestly I play all 3 races, I can say Protoss is the easiest. Lets look at an engagement PvZ and TvZ..
Scenario: Zerg has banelings. lings, mutas
Terran: Make sure tanks always sieged, focus fire banelings, spread marines
Protoss: Blink stalkers away, cast forceshields. If you're using collosi + sentries basically all u do is spam f and a attack
Which sounds harder?
People need to stop overusing the "I play all 3 races, Protoss is the easiest" argument. If you're playing the 3 races at the same time, you don't have enough in-depth knowledge of the races to judge. If you play random, assuming you don't cheese/metagame your way through the ladder, you're generally just bad (look at the ratio of random players per leagues on the ladder).
Further proof that you don't know what you're talking about, nobody decent plays ZvP with ling/baneling/mutas without overlords to drop the banelings. Why, you may ask? Because as you pointed out, it's quite easy for protoss to engage that.
Now, drop the banelings with overlords and add in infestors. Did you try to micro a "protoss ball" against that? That maybe the most intense micro in the game.
So don't spread your goldish knowledge of the game to make protoss players look bad, please.
Edit: That's just funny how there's at the same time this thread where everybody says Protoss is "EZ bro 1A move", the thread about July's winrates where Protoss is stomped to the ground by the other races, and GSL Code A Ro16 where we might see the Code A's last 2 protosses be eliminated.
On August 11 2011 13:26 akalarry wrote: the only thing easier is protoss's macro.
units are more expensive in general, so it's easier to spend your money. also since 1 probe can build everything, it's easier to shift queue buildings.
toss requires good unit control and micro though. every unit counts since they are so expensive. the big old death ball 1a does not happen at very high levels.
a lot of zerg players say how their race requires most skill, but honestly it's just game sense and keeping up with their injects. because they have so many units, most zergs i see 1a a shit ton more than toss players. totally different playstyle imo.
not really, we zerg only 1A when we see an opening because one mistake, you could rape our units and just proceed to walk over our army. we also need to creep spread and overlord placements too.
I feel terran is the hardest to play, not only do they need to do double prone drops, they need to spread marines. zerg's micro-ing while keeping up injection is really hard as well, especially when doing muta, ling banelings and the hardest part is if we lose out injection, it is similar to losing x amount of gateway/robo or watever production facilities.
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
You do realise that the entire protoss army is weak and relies on perfect ffs to be some-what effective. Tell me, how are ffs gonna save you from 3-pronged mm drops?
Did you not see my (fclick fclick fclick). Perfect forcefields are fucking simple. Fclick in the middle of his unit ball and you're safe.
For 3 pronged MMM drops you simply position your army well, make some cannons, and use something called "the warp in" function. I heard it's pretty good.
On August 11 2011 12:44 Flameling wrote:
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
What would you call "hard" micro? I don't find any other micro intensive unit in Terran and Zerg that's harder than blink micro.
Something that can actually cost you the game if you make a mistake. Tanks being unsieged, marines not being spread well enough, getting trapped behind forcefields, Mutalisks not magic boxing, banelings inefficiently detonating, Infestors getting into range and dying instantly.
I'm not talking about early game, any race apart from Terran have it hell early game (although fclicking is still pretty easy). but in the midgame to lategame there's nothing Protoss can do that can cost them the game instantly. Miss some forcefields? By this point you have about full energy 10+ sentries so you shouldn't be worried. And pressing B continuously, believe it or not, will not cost you the game if you don't do it fast enough (which is still easy as fuck). This is why Protoss is the relaxing race, and why it's considered the "casual" race.
Like i said before, the protoss race is balanced on the assumption of perfect ffs, 1 missed ff and u lose. If godly perfect ffs are so easy and so overpowered how come protoss isn't dominating? Thats exactly of an example of a simple mistake that will cost you the game. 1 missed storm and you will lose the game. While only 1 emp that you did not dodge will make you unable to place down your 'perfect ffs' or storm, causing you to lose the game. And do you really think that sentries and hts have infinite range? They are even worse than the infestor to use. If you have 10 sentries means you don't have as much other gas-intensive units that u absolutely need in your army usch as collosus and hts. And a few emps will make your 1000 gas of sentries useless. So please tell me, whats so unforgiving about engaging as terran in tvp?
difficulty =/= balance
Perfect forcefields are easy, but they don't win you the game. Other races know how to deal with them (eg. on close position shattered temple zvp end the game before protoss has 5 sentries or using medivacs to lift units).
As for your other complaints, 1 missed ff does not mean a loss. Please stop saying this bullshit. 1 missed storm also does not mean a loss, it simply means the engagement will be less effective for you. There's a difference between your losing half your MMM ball or you entire flock of mutas, compared to "losing a storm". Meanwhile if you think one EMP ends the game for you, well I heard spreading your units is pretty good. Although I'm sure that pre positioning before a battle might take a bit too much micro for the typical protoss. As for sentries cutting into your gas units... really? Have you never seen a typical 3gate sentry expand in ZvP? A shitload amount of sentries is not hard to get. Tier 1 Units don't take much of a commitment believe it or not! In fact it's completely standard to have so many sentries. Finally, one of your other ignorant statements is the range of forcefields and storms: Fungal Growth is 7 range for a full fungal. Force Fields and Storms are both 9 range.
Oh and before I have to cringe again at one of these posts and actually wonder why I'm bothering to even argue... difficulty =/= balance
Your ignorant if you think that missing a FF will never lose a protoss a game. And yes, a bad storm can also lose you a game. And man toss have it easy mode, they only need a perfect spread on their army so that single emp will not annihilate you. I'm talking about high-level protoss, where spreading is a must, and happens every fucking engagement. And if you don't sperad sufficiently, or have a slightly bad concave, you will lose the game to the a-moving mm ball after you've been emped by the multiple ghosts.
Also of course you need fuckin sentries, I have no clue what your on about. Like I've been saying many times, they are the clutch behind the toss army without them we would have a 0% win ratio.
Due to lack of reading comphrension from you, I'll speak in a simpler way.
Missing ff in early game, bad Missing ff in mid to late game, doesn't matter (you have a shitload of sentries, 1 forcefield won't make a difference) spread casters away from each other in deathball, easy
But what really got me pissed is that last sentence. When the fuck did I say you should stop using sentries? It's you who is the fucking retard that said you don't have 10+ sentries because of "gas intensive units"
As for concaves, Protoss has it by far the easiest. Why's that?
Your units don't take serious splash damage from anything Colossus have 9 Range
Do I have to go on are you going to keep trying to state your opinion against actual facts? Just look at what I said against why storms don't make a difference compared to micro errors from other races. Seriously, read my post again. Fucking retards like you make me so frustrated.
You do realise that the entire protoss army is weak and relies on perfect ffs to be some-what effective. Tell me, how are ffs gonna save you from 3-pronged mm drops?
Did you not see my (fclick fclick fclick). Perfect forcefields are fucking simple. Fclick in the middle of his unit ball and you're safe.
For 3 pronged MMM drops you simply position your army well, make some cannons, and use something called "the warp in" function. I heard it's pretty good.
On August 11 2011 12:44 Flameling wrote: [quote] What would you call "hard" micro? I don't find any other micro intensive unit in Terran and Zerg that's harder than blink micro.
Something that can actually cost you the game if you make a mistake. Tanks being unsieged, marines not being spread well enough, getting trapped behind forcefields, Mutalisks not magic boxing, banelings inefficiently detonating, Infestors getting into range and dying instantly.
I'm not talking about early game, any race apart from Terran have it hell early game (although fclicking is still pretty easy). but in the midgame to lategame there's nothing Protoss can do that can cost them the game instantly. Miss some forcefields? By this point you have about full energy 10+ sentries so you shouldn't be worried. And pressing B continuously, believe it or not, will not cost you the game if you don't do it fast enough (which is still easy as fuck). This is why Protoss is the relaxing race, and why it's considered the "casual" race.
Like i said before, the protoss race is balanced on the assumption of perfect ffs, 1 missed ff and u lose. If godly perfect ffs are so easy and so overpowered how come protoss isn't dominating? Thats exactly of an example of a simple mistake that will cost you the game. 1 missed storm and you will lose the game. While only 1 emp that you did not dodge will make you unable to place down your 'perfect ffs' or storm, causing you to lose the game. And do you really think that sentries and hts have infinite range? They are even worse than the infestor to use. If you have 10 sentries means you don't have as much other gas-intensive units that u absolutely need in your army usch as collosus and hts. And a few emps will make your 1000 gas of sentries useless. So please tell me, whats so unforgiving about engaging as terran in tvp?
difficulty =/= balance
Perfect forcefields are easy, but they don't win you the game. Other races know how to deal with them (eg. on close position shattered temple zvp end the game before protoss has 5 sentries or using medivacs to lift units).
As for your other complaints, 1 missed ff does not mean a loss. Please stop saying this bullshit. 1 missed storm also does not mean a loss, it simply means the engagement will be less effective for you. There's a difference between your losing half your MMM ball or you entire flock of mutas, compared to "losing a storm". Meanwhile if you think one EMP ends the game for you, well I heard spreading your units is pretty good. Although I'm sure that pre positioning before a battle might take a bit too much micro for the typical protoss. As for sentries cutting into your gas units... really? Have you never seen a typical 3gate sentry expand in ZvP? A shitload amount of sentries is not hard to get. Tier 1 Units don't take much of a commitment believe it or not! In fact it's completely standard to have so many sentries. Finally, one of your other ignorant statements is the range of forcefields and storms: Fungal Growth is 7 range for a full fungal. Force Fields and Storms are both 9 range.
Oh and before I have to cringe again at one of these posts and actually wonder why I'm bothering to even argue... difficulty =/= balance
Your ignorant if you think that missing a FF will never lose a protoss a game. And yes, a bad storm can also lose you a game. And man toss have it easy mode, they only need a perfect spread on their army so that single emp will not annihilate you. I'm talking about high-level protoss, where spreading is a must, and happens every fucking engagement. And if you don't sperad sufficiently, or have a slightly bad concave, you will lose the game to the a-moving mm ball after you've been emped by the multiple ghosts.
Also of course you need fuckin sentries, I have no clue what your on about. Like I've been saying many times, they are the clutch behind the toss army without them we would have a 0% win ratio.
Due to lack of reading comphrension from you, I'll speak in a simpler way.
Missing ff in early game, bad Missing ff in mid to late game, doesn't matter (you have a shitload of sentries, 1 forcefield won't make a difference) spread casters away from each other in deathball, easy
But what really got me pissed is that last sentence. When the fuck did I say you should stop using sentries? It's you who is the fucking retard that said you don't have 10+ sentries because of "gas intensive units"
As for concaves, Protoss has it by far the easiest. Why's that?
Your units don't take serious splash damage from anything Colossus have 9 Range
Do I have to go on are you going to keep trying to state your opinion against actual facts? Just look at what I said against why storms don't make a difference compared to micro errors from other races. Seriously, read my post again. Fucking retards like you make me so frustrated.
how many fucking times do I have to repeat myself? Mods please permanently ban me so I don't have to fucking deal with this stupid bullshit anymore.
Speaking of stupid bullshit, weren't you the one that said that sieging tanks is "hard micro"?
Yes, I'm sure any Zerg player will let you waltz right in, also giving you enough time to spread and siege tanks any time you want right outside his natural.
Missing a siege costs you the game, missing a forcefield doesn't.
Thats why you leapfrog your tanks or have spotters before you do an unsiege to keep tabs on the zerg army....Its not at all difficult to do at all. Calling sieging tanks "hard micro" is laughable.
The macro tends to be a bit easier as protoss. When you are in lower leagues, small macro improvements causes great (comparatively) improvements overall. It doesn't really matter that your army is less efficient if you don't get perfect forcefields if you have one collosi for every one of their zerglings...
Basically, in silver, protoss is a race where being slightly less bad makes you OP. If somebody is raging at for playing an ez race, just remember - they are probably just as bad as you . In higher leagues, I wouldn't say any race is that much harder than any other (overall - I agree that protoss need better micro compared to say zerg, which might need better scouting ect).
fadestep United States. August 11 2011 13:31. Posts 558
PM Profile Blog Quote #
Protoss players take this personally because its fucking insulting and we get it ALL THE TIME.
Nobody likes to catch shit 24/7 on ladder and on forums for the race they play. Especially when its mostly inane ramblings from people who play this game at such a sub optimal fucking level that any actual differences in balance or difficulty in play aren't even being approached
Hmm i deleted my post because it realy doesnt bother me at all though i still stand by what i said The shit you talking about every player gets i think terrans get it the most (beeing called imba or what not) and zerg probably the least Then the rambles from noobs who play the game at diamond league or lower: (or maybe you are diamond and for you the border is plat, whatever) this tread is asking peoples opinnions about why see toss as easy whats wrong with lower league players telling what and why they find this race easy and that race not? this is not a discussion to find the "truth" about who is the strongest race lol i bet justin bowder could not even say wich one that would be (is he even in masters?) this is just asking people opinnion and everyone high and low level saying what they find easy and difficult in each race all thoose posts made this tread worth reading and interesting for me Not all the bashing on noobs and going into extremely lengthy discussions if one mechanic is stronger then the other -.-
i do agree though that it did bother me a little also at one point when people called terran the easy and imba race everytime i played someone on bnet, so i can understand your frustration also
Why is any race considered easier to play than another? Because people like to complain and blame losses on things other than their ability (or lack thereof).
Each has it's own unique mechanics that require long hours of practice to master, and I don't believe any one person deserves the right to even claim one race has easier mechanics than another. All I've seen listed in this thread are a bunch of mistakes, made by the player, attributed to the races.
Micro arches over all the races, no army compositions or strategies are unbeatable,.. this discussion is pointless. D;
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
You do realise that the entire protoss army is weak and relies on perfect ffs to be some-what effective. Tell me, how are ffs gonna save you from 3-pronged mm drops?
Did you not see my (fclick fclick fclick). Perfect forcefields are fucking simple. Fclick in the middle of his unit ball and you're safe.
For 3 pronged MMM drops you simply position your army well, make some cannons, and use something called "the warp in" function. I heard it's pretty good.
On August 11 2011 12:44 Flameling wrote:
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
What would you call "hard" micro? I don't find any other micro intensive unit in Terran and Zerg that's harder than blink micro.
Something that can actually cost you the game if you make a mistake. Tanks being unsieged, marines not being spread well enough, getting trapped behind forcefields, Mutalisks not magic boxing, banelings inefficiently detonating, Infestors getting into range and dying instantly.
I'm not talking about early game, any race apart from Terran have it hell early game (although fclicking is still pretty easy). but in the midgame to lategame there's nothing Protoss can do that can cost them the game instantly. Miss some forcefields? By this point you have about full energy 10+ sentries so you shouldn't be worried. And pressing B continuously, believe it or not, will not cost you the game if you don't do it fast enough (which is still easy as fuck). This is why Protoss is the relaxing race, and why it's considered the "casual" race.
Like i said before, the protoss race is balanced on the assumption of perfect ffs, 1 missed ff and u lose. If godly perfect ffs are so easy and so overpowered how come protoss isn't dominating? Thats exactly of an example of a simple mistake that will cost you the game. 1 missed storm and you will lose the game. While only 1 emp that you did not dodge will make you unable to place down your 'perfect ffs' or storm, causing you to lose the game. And do you really think that sentries and hts have infinite range? They are even worse than the infestor to use. If you have 10 sentries means you don't have as much other gas-intensive units that u absolutely need in your army usch as collosus and hts. And a few emps will make your 1000 gas of sentries useless. So please tell me, whats so unforgiving about engaging as terran in tvp?
difficulty =/= balance
Perfect forcefields are easy, but they don't win you the game. Other races know how to deal with them (eg. on close position shattered temple zvp end the game before protoss has 5 sentries or using medivacs to lift units).
As for your other complaints, 1 missed ff does not mean a loss. Please stop saying this bullshit. 1 missed storm also does not mean a loss, it simply means the engagement will be less effective for you. There's a difference between your losing half your MMM ball or you entire flock of mutas, compared to "losing a storm". Meanwhile if you think one EMP ends the game for you, well I heard spreading your units is pretty good. Although I'm sure that pre positioning before a battle might take a bit too much micro for the typical protoss. As for sentries cutting into your gas units... really? Have you never seen a typical 3gate sentry expand in ZvP? A shitload amount of sentries is not hard to get. Tier 1 Units don't take much of a commitment believe it or not! In fact it's completely standard to have so many sentries. Finally, one of your other ignorant statements is the range of forcefields and storms: Fungal Growth is 7 range for a full fungal. Force Fields and Storms are both 9 range.
Oh and before I have to cringe again at one of these posts and actually wonder why I'm bothering to even argue... difficulty =/= balance
Your ignorant if you think that missing a FF will never lose a protoss a game. And yes, a bad storm can also lose you a game. And man toss have it easy mode, they only need a perfect spread on their army so that single emp will not annihilate you. I'm talking about high-level protoss, where spreading is a must, and happens every fucking engagement. And if you don't sperad sufficiently, or have a slightly bad concave, you will lose the game to the a-moving mm ball after you've been emped by the multiple ghosts.
Also of course you need fuckin sentries, I have no clue what your on about. Like I've been saying many times, they are the clutch behind the toss army without them we would have a 0% win ratio.
Due to lack of reading comphrension from you, I'll speak in a simpler way.
Missing ff in early game, bad Missing ff in mid to late game, doesn't matter (you have a shitload of sentries, 1 forcefield won't make a difference) spread casters away from each other in deathball, easy
But what really got me pissed is that last sentence. When the fuck did I say you should stop using sentries? It's you who is the fucking retard that said you don't have 10+ sentries because of "gas intensive units"
As for concaves, Protoss has it by far the easiest. Why's that?
Your units don't take serious splash damage from anything Colossus have 9 Range
Do I have to go on are you going to keep trying to state your opinion against actual facts? Just look at what I said against why storms don't make a difference compared to micro errors from other races. Seriously, read my post again. Fucking retards like you make me so frustrated.
how many fucking times do I have to repeat myself? Mods please permanently ban me so I don't have to fucking deal with this stupid bullshit anymore.
I support your decision bud. You seem like a pretty horrific poster.
Bah. This thread needs a lock and pad on it and a trip down south.
Posters like you actually make me want to kill myself. There's no way you contributed to the discussion apart from "ur stupid protoss is hard im biased ur plat league". I actually tried to keep an argument, then I started getting replies from protoss diamond league super stars that
1) delivered no argument 2) completely missed the point 3) blinded by bias because they would rather blame balance than try to get better
Just shut the fuck up and look at what you're posting.
On August 11 2011 13:39 Joey Wheeler wrote: As for concaves, Protoss has it by far the easiest. Why's that?
Your units don't take serious splash damage from anything Colossus have 9 Range
I would like to disagree with this, hardcore. I was protoss for S1 and most of S2. In the last couple weeks of S2 I switched to zerg and now play zerg as main. I am only diamond, but my basic strategy is ling/bling early game (only making banelings if there is aggression), ling/infestor midgame (only making ~5 infestors) and tech fairly quickly to ultralisks with a final composition of ling/bling/ultralisk (+ whatever infestors are left). Generally speaking, the units lost tab is fairly heavily skewed in my favor, such as
I dont even do any cutesy banelings in overlords and drop them, I just a-move. The lategame zerg ground army demolishes the lategame protoss "deathball". Lately protoss have been making voidrays, but I just drop a spire just in case and replenish with a few corruptors for my 2nd attack and lots of cracklings (adding banelings in if there is a wall).
I will say this, as I have learned it the hard way, ultralisks are retarded and are the dragoons of SC2. If you ever attack in a smallish area with ultras they are horrible. But, if you attack in an open area you will crush.
You do realise that the entire protoss army is weak and relies on perfect ffs to be some-what effective. Tell me, how are ffs gonna save you from 3-pronged mm drops?
Did you not see my (fclick fclick fclick). Perfect forcefields are fucking simple. Fclick in the middle of his unit ball and you're safe.
For 3 pronged MMM drops you simply position your army well, make some cannons, and use something called "the warp in" function. I heard it's pretty good.
On August 11 2011 12:44 Flameling wrote: [quote] What would you call "hard" micro? I don't find any other micro intensive unit in Terran and Zerg that's harder than blink micro.
Something that can actually cost you the game if you make a mistake. Tanks being unsieged, marines not being spread well enough, getting trapped behind forcefields, Mutalisks not magic boxing, banelings inefficiently detonating, Infestors getting into range and dying instantly.
I'm not talking about early game, any race apart from Terran have it hell early game (although fclicking is still pretty easy). but in the midgame to lategame there's nothing Protoss can do that can cost them the game instantly. Miss some forcefields? By this point you have about full energy 10+ sentries so you shouldn't be worried. And pressing B continuously, believe it or not, will not cost you the game if you don't do it fast enough (which is still easy as fuck). This is why Protoss is the relaxing race, and why it's considered the "casual" race.
Like i said before, the protoss race is balanced on the assumption of perfect ffs, 1 missed ff and u lose. If godly perfect ffs are so easy and so overpowered how come protoss isn't dominating? Thats exactly of an example of a simple mistake that will cost you the game. 1 missed storm and you will lose the game. While only 1 emp that you did not dodge will make you unable to place down your 'perfect ffs' or storm, causing you to lose the game. And do you really think that sentries and hts have infinite range? They are even worse than the infestor to use. If you have 10 sentries means you don't have as much other gas-intensive units that u absolutely need in your army usch as collosus and hts. And a few emps will make your 1000 gas of sentries useless. So please tell me, whats so unforgiving about engaging as terran in tvp?
difficulty =/= balance
Perfect forcefields are easy, but they don't win you the game. Other races know how to deal with them (eg. on close position shattered temple zvp end the game before protoss has 5 sentries or using medivacs to lift units).
As for your other complaints, 1 missed ff does not mean a loss. Please stop saying this bullshit. 1 missed storm also does not mean a loss, it simply means the engagement will be less effective for you. There's a difference between your losing half your MMM ball or you entire flock of mutas, compared to "losing a storm". Meanwhile if you think one EMP ends the game for you, well I heard spreading your units is pretty good. Although I'm sure that pre positioning before a battle might take a bit too much micro for the typical protoss. As for sentries cutting into your gas units... really? Have you never seen a typical 3gate sentry expand in ZvP? A shitload amount of sentries is not hard to get. Tier 1 Units don't take much of a commitment believe it or not! In fact it's completely standard to have so many sentries. Finally, one of your other ignorant statements is the range of forcefields and storms: Fungal Growth is 7 range for a full fungal. Force Fields and Storms are both 9 range.
Oh and before I have to cringe again at one of these posts and actually wonder why I'm bothering to even argue... difficulty =/= balance
Your ignorant if you think that missing a FF will never lose a protoss a game. And yes, a bad storm can also lose you a game. And man toss have it easy mode, they only need a perfect spread on their army so that single emp will not annihilate you. I'm talking about high-level protoss, where spreading is a must, and happens every fucking engagement. And if you don't sperad sufficiently, or have a slightly bad concave, you will lose the game to the a-moving mm ball after you've been emped by the multiple ghosts.
Also of course you need fuckin sentries, I have no clue what your on about. Like I've been saying many times, they are the clutch behind the toss army without them we would have a 0% win ratio.
Due to lack of reading comphrension from you, I'll speak in a simpler way.
Missing ff in early game, bad Missing ff in mid to late game, doesn't matter (you have a shitload of sentries, 1 forcefield won't make a difference) spread casters away from each other in deathball, easy
But what really got me pissed is that last sentence. When the fuck did I say you should stop using sentries? It's you who is the fucking retard that said you don't have 10+ sentries because of "gas intensive units"
As for concaves, Protoss has it by far the easiest. Why's that?
Your units don't take serious splash damage from anything Colossus have 9 Range
Do I have to go on are you going to keep trying to state your opinion against actual facts? Just look at what I said against why storms don't make a difference compared to micro errors from other races. Seriously, read my post again. Fucking retards like you make me so frustrated.
how many fucking times do I have to repeat myself? Mods please permanently ban me so I don't have to fucking deal with this stupid bullshit anymore.
I support your decision bud. You seem like a pretty horrific poster.
Bah. This thread needs a lock and pad on it and a trip down south.
Posters like you actually make me want to kill myself. There's no way you contributed to the discussion apart from "ur stupid protoss is hard im biased ur plat league". I actually tried to keep an argument, then I started getting replies from protoss diamond league super stars that
1) delivered no argument 2) completely missed the point 3) blinded by bias because they would rather blame balance than try to get better
Just shut the fuck up and look at what you're posting.
There's nothing to argue. There's no legitimate conversation to be had here, and if there was, it certainly isn't being had.
I don't think Protoss is easier or harder than any other race. Maybe when I'm perfect at all 3 races I will try and make that call, but I'm not, so I won't bother.
You seem upset. You seem jealous. You seem like you joined this site a week ago and have made a slew of bitchy, angry posts in that time.
Maybe you're confusing me with the person you were raging at before me, because I haven't mentioned balance once.
Night chap, try not to pop a lung while jerking off to your latest replay from Silver league while alt tabbing into this thread and making your stunningly intelligent posts.
On August 11 2011 11:21 infinitum wrote: I play Terran, and I think protoss is easier because of simpler macro. Like, zerg have to spread creep and inject larva constantly. Since protoss units are more expensive, protoss players spend less time making units. I know it's not a lot, but it adds up. Finally, the protoss death ball is so powerful all together, whereas terran and zerg rely a lot more on positioning, so it's easier for protoss to attack. Just my opinion.
It's always so obvious who didn't play Brood War. If you think that macro in this game is hard or that it's the determinant between which race is easier at high level playing then I don't know what to say.
good argument, whats your point?
Point is that arguments over the difficulty of macroing shouldn't be a factor in high level balance discussion because it isn't a factor.
This thread should just be closed, because people get too defensive about their main race. Its natural, its like someone attacking your friend, you're probably going to defend them. It takes a real secure person to admit something that might damage his ego, kind of ironic because that type of person wouldn't really care about his ego.
People who attack Protoss have probably never played it seriously, and people who defend Protoss probably have never really played any of the other two races seriously, so any argument is considered void already, nevermind the bias factor
The reason why I believe that protoss is the easiest race;
My main race is zerg in diamond. After playing roughly 200games as zerg I played some games as random. I got completely stomped whenever I played as terran, but without any real practice with protoss my win-rate is pretty much exactly the same as my win-rate as zerg.
your eyes are constantly glued to one of your goddamn hatcheries as a zerg cause you need to inject lavea to actually be good at the race. Forgot also that the only way for zerg to win is to have their army on 4-5 keys. LOLSORRY. Forgot zerg took skill and has the weakest t2-t3 units. LOLSORRY.
On August 11 2011 14:05 KingFranX wrote: People who attack Protoss have probably never played it seriously, and people who defend Protoss probably have never really played any of the other two races seriously, so any argument is considered void already, nevermind the bias factor
Translation: I make false assumptions and attempt to look unbiased
your eyes are constantly glued to one of your goddamn hatcheries as a zerg cause you need to inject lavea to actually be good at the race. Forgot also that the only way for zerg to win is to have their army on 4-5 keys. LOLSORRY. Forgot zerg took skill and has the weakest t2-t3 units. LOLSORRY.
Protoss is easiest to pick up for many people, but there's clearly a cut-off point where it becomes a LOT harder, and smaller things like really, really good reaction time, minimap awareness, and micro become much more demanding. Just look at the GSL for evidence of that. I personally find Terran macro easier than Protoss macro though (main Protoss, offrace Terran) because I don't have to take my eyes away from what I'm doing to make stuff as Terran. As Protoss, I have to move my screen elsewhere to warp stuff in, and that can actually make all the difference in crucial moments in the game.
On August 11 2011 13:44 RedMorning wrote: Zerg requires the most macro (i.e., queens)
How are Queens any more macro-demanding than any other race's macro mechanics? Mentally executing these makes me think about this...
For chronoboost, I have to... 6-z-[clicktarget]
For queen, spawn larva I have to... space-4-x-[clickhatch]
For mule, I have to... 6-x-[clickminerals]
Arguably, Spawn larva takes one more key press and that's because of my personal hotkey set-up. On one base, I can execute the macro mechanics of each race with 2 key presses and a click.
Once you pass one base, each macro mechanic becomes slightly more difficult...
Chronoboost [targethotkey]-6-z-[click] (repeat for each target)
Spawn Larva space-4-x-[clickhatch] (repeat for each base)
Mule 6-x-[click minerals] (easy mode, dropping mules all on one base) I'm not very good with Terran, though. I assume if you wanted to play Terran at the highest level, spacing your Mules to preserve minerals is actually a useful thing, so it becomes a lot more than my pathetic 6-x-[click]. ;D
They all seem pretty equal to me, yet still interesting and unique. What is your reasoning for believing that spawn larva is more difficult? ^_^
your eyes are constantly glued to one of your goddamn hatcheries as a zerg cause you need to inject lavea to actually be good at the race. Forgot also that the only way for zerg to win is to have their army on 4-5 keys. LOLSORRY. Forgot zerg took skill and has the weakest t2-t3 units. LOLSORRY.
well no, that is wrong. you want to spent more time on your army and mini map because a mistake can cost your whole army easily. this is why you should either go either mini map injection or base camera method.
you want to keep your army as "controlled" as possible. and zerg's units are quite good. Not as durable but extremely useful in their own ways
On August 11 2011 13:44 RedMorning wrote: Zerg requires the most macro (i.e., queens)
How are Queens any more macro-demanding than any other race's macro mechanics? Mentally executing these makes me think about this...
For chronoboost, I have to... 6-z-[clicktarget]
For queen, spawn larva I have to... space-4-x-[clickhatch]
For mule, I have to... 6-x-[clickminerals]
Arguably, Spawn larva takes one more key press and that's because of my personal hotkey set-up. On one base, I can execute the macro mechanics of each race with 2 key presses and a click.
Once you pass one base, each macro mechanic becomes slightly more difficult...
Chronoboost [targethotkey]-6-z-[click] (repeat for each target)
Spawn Larva space-4-x-[clickhatch] (repeat for each base)
Mule 6-x-[click minerals] (easy mode, dropping mules all on one base) I'm not very good with Terran, though. I assume if you wanted to play Terran at the highest level, spacing your Mules to preserve minerals is actually a useful thing, so it becomes a lot more than my pathetic 6-x-[click]. ;D
They all seem pretty equal to me, yet still interesting and unique. What is your reasoning for believing that spawn larva is more difficult? ^_^
because it is harder. You miss one injection, the consequence is much higher than missing a boost or mule. This doesn't get more merciful in late game too, if you miss a mule or boost, you can mass boost and mule for immediate effect but if you miss an injection, you are going to have a much smaller reinforcement and can cost you the game.
On August 11 2011 13:59 TheRabidDeer wrote: am only diamond
There's your problem. I beat Protoss every game in Diamond by maxing on burrowed Roaches. Doesn't mean it's a legit strategy after a certain point.
So, how do you suggest a protoss deal with ling/bling/ultra/infestor? The only reason infestors are even needed is so you dont get kited, its not reliant on their damage.
Anyway, you are clearly better than everybody and you know all... so maybe we should all just bow to your superior knowledge and ability... even though you dont even say anything of merit.
On August 11 2011 14:05 KingFranX wrote: People who attack Protoss have probably never played it seriously, and people who defend Protoss probably have never really played any of the other two races seriously, so any argument is considered void already, nevermind the bias factor
Translation: I make false assumptions and attempt to look unbiased
Which false assumption did I make? That people are biased towards their own race? I mean if we can't even agree on that, there is no discussion to be had
On August 11 2011 14:05 KingFranX wrote: This thread should just be closed, because people get too defensive about their main race. Its natural, its like someone attacking your friend, you're probably going to defend them. It takes a real secure person to admit something that might damage his ego, kind of ironic because that type of person wouldn't really care about his ego.
People who attack Protoss have probably never played it seriously, and people who defend Protoss probably have never really played any of the other two races seriously, so any argument is considered void already, nevermind the bias factor
I was there going "Wow, this guy sounds quite reasonable, kind of a smartass assholish kinda guy but he has a point." then I see that it's the same guy that "play the 3 races" and uses ling/bling/mutas against protoss and says that Protoss is the easiest.
Then you spout such bullshit with a straight face. Seriously?
On August 11 2011 13:44 RedMorning wrote: Zerg requires the most macro (i.e., queens)
How are Queens any more macro-demanding than any other race's macro mechanics? Mentally executing these makes me think about this...
For chronoboost, I have to... 6-z-[clicktarget]
For queen, spawn larva I have to... space-4-x-[clickhatch]
For mule, I have to... 6-x-[clickminerals]
Arguably, Spawn larva takes one more key press and that's because of my personal hotkey set-up. On one base, I can execute the macro mechanics of each race with 2 key presses and a click.
Once you pass one base, each macro mechanic becomes slightly more difficult...
Chronoboost [targethotkey]-6-z-[click] (repeat for each target)
Spawn Larva space-4-x-[clickhatch] (repeat for each base)
Mule 6-x-[click minerals] (easy mode, dropping mules all on one base) I'm not very good with Terran, though. I assume if you wanted to play Terran at the highest level, spacing your Mules to preserve minerals is actually a useful thing, so it becomes a lot more than my pathetic 6-x-[click]. ;D
They all seem pretty equal to me, yet still interesting and unique. What is your reasoning for believing that spawn larva is more difficult? ^_^
I am not sure an argument relating to a races 'macro mechanic' is helping the cause. Being late on larvae injects can put you really far behind and there is no way to 'double inject'. If the protoss or terran misses the timing on mules or chronoboost, they can simply do it at a later time, or double mule.
your eyes are constantly glued to one of your goddamn hatcheries as a zerg cause you need to inject lavea to actually be good at the race. Forgot also that the only way for zerg to win is to have their army on 4-5 keys. LOLSORRY. Forgot zerg took skill and has the weakest t2-t3 units. LOLSORRY.
well no, that is wrong. you want to spent more time on your army and mini map because a mistake can cost your whole army easily. this is why you should either go either mini map injection or base camera method.
you want to keep your army as "controlled" as possible. and zerg's units are quite good. Not as durable but extremely useful in their own ways
On August 11 2011 13:44 RedMorning wrote: Zerg requires the most macro (i.e., queens)
How are Queens any more macro-demanding than any other race's macro mechanics? Mentally executing these makes me think about this...
For chronoboost, I have to... 6-z-[clicktarget]
For queen, spawn larva I have to... space-4-x-[clickhatch]
For mule, I have to... 6-x-[clickminerals]
Arguably, Spawn larva takes one more key press and that's because of my personal hotkey set-up. On one base, I can execute the macro mechanics of each race with 2 key presses and a click.
Once you pass one base, each macro mechanic becomes slightly more difficult...
Chronoboost [targethotkey]-6-z-[click] (repeat for each target)
Spawn Larva space-4-x-[clickhatch] (repeat for each base)
Mule 6-x-[click minerals] (easy mode, dropping mules all on one base) I'm not very good with Terran, though. I assume if you wanted to play Terran at the highest level, spacing your Mules to preserve minerals is actually a useful thing, so it becomes a lot more than my pathetic 6-x-[click]. ;D
They all seem pretty equal to me, yet still interesting and unique. What is your reasoning for believing that spawn larva is more difficult? ^_^
because it is harder. You miss one injection, the consequence is much higher than missing a boost or mule. This doesn't get more merciful in late game too, if you miss a mule or boost, you can mass boost and mule for immediate effect but if you miss an injection, you are going to have a much smaller reinforcement and can cost you the game.
Weakest T2-T3 units? explain that one to me, i'm interested as to why you think that/
On August 11 2011 13:59 TheRabidDeer wrote: am only diamond
There's your problem. I beat Protoss every game in Diamond by maxing on burrowed Roaches. Doesn't mean it's a legit strategy after a certain point.
So, how do you suggest a protoss deal with ling/bling/ultra/infestor? The only reason infestors are even needed is so you dont get kited, its not reliant on their damage.
Anyway, you are clearly better than everybody and you know all... so maybe we should all just bow to your superior knowledge and ability... even though you dont even say anything of merit.
storms for banelings feedback for infestors (no need to land many) archons for ultras
watch huk vs destiny on shakuras. Destiny maxes on the army you stated with only 40 drones and loses to a smaller supply Protoss army.
Sure is "unbeatable". And no I'm not complaining about imbalance, but saying this composition is unbeatable is just goddamn retarded.
On August 11 2011 14:05 KingFranX wrote: This thread should just be closed, because people get too defensive about their main race. Its natural, its like someone attacking your friend, you're probably going to defend them. It takes a real secure person to admit something that might damage his ego, kind of ironic because that type of person wouldn't really care about his ego.
People who attack Protoss have probably never played it seriously, and people who defend Protoss probably have never really played any of the other two races seriously, so any argument is considered void already, nevermind the bias factor
I was there going "Wow, this guy sounds quite reasonable, kind of a smartass assholish kinda guy but he has a point." then I see that it's the same guy that "play the 3 races" and uses ling/bling/mutas against protoss and says that Protoss is the easiest.
Then you spout such bullshit with a straight face. Seriously?
Lol honestly, I only used the bling analogy because its one of the only strats that I could think of that zerg would use vs both races. I mean no zerg really goes roach hydra anymore vs terran. And I don't know whats so odd about ling/bling/muta I see it all the time when I play ladder, or some combination. Either ling/bling/roach add infestors, overlord drops whatever. Its the main style I see these days
On August 11 2011 14:05 KingFranX wrote: People who attack Protoss have probably never played it seriously, and people who defend Protoss probably have never really played any of the other two races seriously, so any argument is considered void already, nevermind the bias factor
Translation: I make false assumptions and attempt to look unbiased
Which false assumption did I make? That people are biased towards their own race? I mean if we can't even agree on that, there is no discussion to be had
The assumption that everyone has only played one race seriously.
Yes, that's right, when you start playing a race you have to swear a sacred oath never to commit to playing another race.
On August 11 2011 13:59 TheRabidDeer wrote: am only diamond
There's your problem. I beat Protoss every game in Diamond by maxing on burrowed Roaches. Doesn't mean it's a legit strategy after a certain point.
So, how do you suggest a protoss deal with ling/bling/ultra/infestor? The only reason infestors are even needed is so you dont get kited, its not reliant on their damage.
Anyway, you are clearly better than everybody and you know all... so maybe we should all just bow to your superior knowledge and ability... even though you dont even say anything of merit.
storms for banelings feedback for infestors (no need to land many) archons for ultras
watch huk vs destiny on shakuras. Destiny maxes on the army you stated with only 40 drones and loses to a smaller supply Protoss army.
Sure is "unbeatable". And no I'm not complaining about imbalance, but saying this composition is unbeatable is just goddamn retarded.
Do you have a link to this game? Because I find it hard to believe it would lose, even with the composition you talk about. I imagine since it is a destiny game he probably had way too many infestors and not enough banelings/lings.
EDIT: Also, what are your qualifications? I wouldnt mind seeing your bnet profile, since you bash on diamonds pretty hard.
On August 11 2011 13:44 RedMorning wrote: Protoss, blink micro CAN be hard...but it is far from being the hardest. You know what's hard? Doing 2 drops then doing a marine split with your main army and then macroing up another army.
You know whats harder? Somehow defending against 2 drops, then dancing your army keeping a perfect spread, then perfect ffs, perfect storms, perfect blinks, while macroing up another army
Agreed, most people will agree (except for maybe terrans) that defending against drops is much harder than actually doing the drops. Unless your actually microing 2-3 drops at once somehow like mma (wich no one in this forum can do even most of the top pro's cant)
And even then it is really really difficult to defend against a multi pronged drop while the player is microing multiple drops.
On August 11 2011 14:05 KingFranX wrote: People who attack Protoss have probably never played it seriously, and people who defend Protoss probably have never really played any of the other two races seriously, so any argument is considered void already, nevermind the bias factor
Translation: I make false assumptions and attempt to look unbiased
Which false assumption did I make? That people are biased towards their own race? I mean if we can't even agree on that, there is no discussion to be had
The assumption that everyone has only played one race seriously.
Yes, that's right, when you start playing a race you have to swear a sacred oath never to commit to playing another race.
See, this is what I'm talking about. Why do you twist my words around, I said probably never played another race SERIOUSLY. Not some fuck around going to switch 1 day, I think its a valid point. Key words a probably and seriously. You turned it into "People who play protoss never played another race"
To be a bit serious is it really considered easier? Perhaps it is at lower levels due to a bit simpler macro mechanics, general effectiveness of 1aing and the number of easily executable cheeses that are effective at lower levels of play.
I doubt many people consider protoss easier to play at a pro level than any of the other races.
On August 11 2011 13:44 RedMorning wrote: Zerg requires the most macro (i.e., queens)
How are Queens any more macro-demanding than any other race's macro mechanics? Mentally executing these makes me think about this...
For chronoboost, I have to... 6-z-[clicktarget]
For queen, spawn larva I have to... space-4-x-[clickhatch]
For mule, I have to... 6-x-[clickminerals]
Arguably, Spawn larva takes one more key press and that's because of my personal hotkey set-up. On one base, I can execute the macro mechanics of each race with 2 key presses and a click.
Once you pass one base, each macro mechanic becomes slightly more difficult...
Chronoboost [targethotkey]-6-z-[click] (repeat for each target)
Spawn Larva space-4-x-[clickhatch] (repeat for each base)
Mule 6-x-[click minerals] (easy mode, dropping mules all on one base) I'm not very good with Terran, though. I assume if you wanted to play Terran at the highest level, spacing your Mules to preserve minerals is actually a useful thing, so it becomes a lot more than my pathetic 6-x-[click]. ;D
They all seem pretty equal to me, yet still interesting and unique. What is your reasoning for believing that spawn larva is more difficult? ^_^
I am not sure an argument relating to a races 'macro mechanic' is helping the cause. Being late on larvae injects can put you really far behind and there is no way to 'double inject'. If the protoss or terran misses the timing on mules or chronoboost, they can simply do it at a later time, or double mule.
Exactly. What's harder:
1) Injecting every hatchery on time everytime. Any misses can't be corrected. 2) Dropping mules/chronos. Misses can be corrected.
Zerg macro is the hardest by far...I don't even play Z as my main and I can easily admit to that.
On August 11 2011 13:59 TheRabidDeer wrote: am only diamond
There's your problem. I beat Protoss every game in Diamond by maxing on burrowed Roaches. Doesn't mean it's a legit strategy after a certain point.
So, how do you suggest a protoss deal with ling/bling/ultra/infestor? The only reason infestors are even needed is so you dont get kited, its not reliant on their damage.
Anyway, you are clearly better than everybody and you know all... so maybe we should all just bow to your superior knowledge and ability... even though you dont even say anything of merit.
storms for banelings feedback for infestors (no need to land many) archons for ultras
watch huk vs destiny on shakuras. Destiny maxes on the army you stated with only 40 drones and loses to a smaller supply Protoss army.
Sure is "unbeatable". And no I'm not complaining about imbalance, but saying this composition is unbeatable is just goddamn retarded.
Do you have a link to this game? Because I find it hard to believe it would lose, even with the composition you talk about. I imagine since it is a destiny game he probably had way too many infestors and not enough banelings/lings.
EDIT: Also, what are your qualifications? I wouldnt mind seeing your bnet profile, since you bash on diamonds pretty hard.
Banelings are missing but are instead replaced by multiple brood lords. Which in this scenario is better because banelings are for the low tier gateway units which HuK doesn't use to win. I also know the worker counts and such because it's was streamed on IPL and showed the unit counts.
As for my profile, let's not make this an epenis pissing contest
On August 11 2011 14:05 KingFranX wrote: People who attack Protoss have probably never played it seriously, and people who defend Protoss probably have never really played any of the other two races seriously, so any argument is considered void already, nevermind the bias factor
Translation: I make false assumptions and attempt to look unbiased
Which false assumption did I make? That people are biased towards their own race? I mean if we can't even agree on that, there is no discussion to be had
The assumption that everyone has only played one race seriously.
Yes, that's right, when you start playing a race you have to swear a sacred oath never to commit to playing another race.
See, this is what I'm talking about. Why do you twist my words around, I said probably never played another race SERIOUSLY. Not some fuck around going to switch 1 day, I think its a valid point. Key words a probably and seriously. You turned it into "People who play protoss never played another race"
"The assumption that every has only played one race seriously"
If i delete the protoss files from my game directory, will i stop getting matched up against them? fed up of 7 minute games of "guess the all in" or 20 minute games of "how to crack a 30 apm nut"
On August 11 2011 13:44 RedMorning wrote: Zerg requires the most macro (i.e., queens)
How are Queens any more macro-demanding than any other race's macro mechanics? Mentally executing these makes me think about this...
For chronoboost, I have to... 6-z-[clicktarget]
For queen, spawn larva I have to... space-4-x-[clickhatch]
For mule, I have to... 6-x-[clickminerals]
Arguably, Spawn larva takes one more key press and that's because of my personal hotkey set-up. On one base, I can execute the macro mechanics of each race with 2 key presses and a click.
Once you pass one base, each macro mechanic becomes slightly more difficult...
Chronoboost [targethotkey]-6-z-[click] (repeat for each target)
Spawn Larva space-4-x-[clickhatch] (repeat for each base)
Mule 6-x-[click minerals] (easy mode, dropping mules all on one base) I'm not very good with Terran, though. I assume if you wanted to play Terran at the highest level, spacing your Mules to preserve minerals is actually a useful thing, so it becomes a lot more than my pathetic 6-x-[click]. ;D
They all seem pretty equal to me, yet still interesting and unique. What is your reasoning for believing that spawn larva is more difficult? ^_^
Two quick points: 1. Zerg has more bases -> more times must perform the macro mechanic. 2. Zerg can't "multi-inject" to catch up with missed injects, while terrans easily multi-mule, and protoss to a great extent can make use of multi-chrono. I'm not saying Zerg is more difficult in general, only answering your specific question about the queens.
On August 11 2011 14:05 KingFranX wrote: This thread should just be closed, because people get too defensive about their main race. Its natural, its like someone attacking your friend, you're probably going to defend them. It takes a real secure person to admit something that might damage his ego, kind of ironic because that type of person wouldn't really care about his ego.
People who attack Protoss have probably never played it seriously, and people who defend Protoss probably have never really played any of the other two races seriously, so any argument is considered void already, nevermind the bias factor
I was there going "Wow, this guy sounds quite reasonable, kind of a smartass assholish kinda guy but he has a point." then I see that it's the same guy that "play the 3 races" and uses ling/bling/mutas against protoss and says that Protoss is the easiest.
Then you spout such bullshit with a straight face. Seriously?
Lol honestly, I only used the bling analogy because its one of the only strats that I could think of that zerg would use vs both races. I mean no zerg really goes roach hydra anymore vs terran. And I don't know whats so odd about ling/bling/muta I see it all the time when I play ladder, or some combination. Either ling/bling/roach add infestors, overlord drops whatever. Its the main style I see these days
You probably meant "roach hydra against protoss", but at this point I can see that you're just confused and disoriented about Starcraft 2. Playing this game sure is not easy sometimes right? baneling or banelings drops whatever, infestors or mutas, that's the same, amirite, bro?
It takes a real secure person to admit something that might damage his ego, kind of ironic because that type of person wouldn't really care about his ego.
But in the middle of all that, you can allow yourself to act all high and mighty and judge other people. Thank you for that piece of advanced psychology, really.
Well, let's move on, but try to type less random words to make your sentences. Unlike Starcraft 2, "some combination" of words just doesn't cut it.
On August 11 2011 14:10 ETisME wrote: because it is harder. You miss one injection, the consequence is much higher than missing a boost or mule. This doesn't get more merciful in late game too, if you miss a mule or boost, you can mass boost and mule for immediate effect but if you miss an injection, you are going to have a much smaller reinforcement and can cost you the game.
o__o That wasn't my point, but o-k...this is an entirely different argument.
Why is the player missing injections? For unit production, that's like a Protoss missing a warp-gate cycle or a Terran forgetting to queue any units. You're attributing player mistakes to the races.
Annyway, off course defending against drops is way harder then doing the drops yourself even this terran with his bronze brain can see that. Dropping is send and forget, and then stim when you land and a move the hatch or spire if you lucky you can pick up your drop and hide at a free area just behind the mineral line to come back 1-2 minutes later, if it gets shot down its to bad but not realy a big loss either defending is difficult because your army will often be at least slightly out of position
The biggest difference is that when you dropping you know that you are going to drop and you are just executing what you already did plan in your head when you defending against a drop its different, it often comes unexpected in time and place and the plan you had in your head for things to do the next minute you have to change
all this is not relevant to annything btw, and i definatly dont want to say that this makes the dropping side the easier side, dropping is just one of the thousends of things you can do in this game
*facepalm* You guys take things to seriously. As for all the players who think I don't know shit about the game, pm me your Bnet on the Euro or NA server and we can have some fun . I won't be able to play till after Aug 20th since I am away, but I mean it useless for me to be like oh I am actually pretty good, so if it matters to you at all just shoot me a message
On August 11 2011 13:59 TheRabidDeer wrote: am only diamond
There's your problem. I beat Protoss every game in Diamond by maxing on burrowed Roaches. Doesn't mean it's a legit strategy after a certain point.
So, how do you suggest a protoss deal with ling/bling/ultra/infestor? The only reason infestors are even needed is so you dont get kited, its not reliant on their damage.
Anyway, you are clearly better than everybody and you know all... so maybe we should all just bow to your superior knowledge and ability... even though you dont even say anything of merit.
storms for banelings feedback for infestors (no need to land many) archons for ultras
watch huk vs destiny on shakuras. Destiny maxes on the army you stated with only 40 drones and loses to a smaller supply Protoss army.
Sure is "unbeatable". And no I'm not complaining about imbalance, but saying this composition is unbeatable is just goddamn retarded.
Do you have a link to this game? Because I find it hard to believe it would lose, even with the composition you talk about. I imagine since it is a destiny game he probably had way too many infestors and not enough banelings/lings.
EDIT: Also, what are your qualifications? I wouldnt mind seeing your bnet profile, since you bash on diamonds pretty hard.
Banelings are missing but are instead replaced by multiple brood lords. Which in this scenario is better because banelings are for the low tier gateway units which HuK doesn't use to win. I also know the worker counts and such because it's was streamed on IPL and showed the unit counts.
As for my profile, let's not make this an epenis pissing contest
So it is that game. That is nothing like the composition that I am talking about. Destiny's zerg is very heavy on harass and late game and very little about brute force. He gets a lot of infestors to delay, deal bits of damage, do hit and runs and other things. He doesnt get them as a pure damage source in most cases. Also, the time in which he gets brood lords is just too late, by the time he reaches just an expansion of HuK, he already has a chunk of VR's out in addition to him attacking at the worst possible angle with the dragoon v2 (ultralisk), 90% of his ground army isnt even engaging HuK.
I am telling you, without a doubt, if you just TRY it, ling/bling/ultralisk raaaaaaapppppeeeeeesssssss protoss. Like 5-6 ultras, like 70 cracklings and 50 banelings. Attack move in and you will pretty much win (assuming no tiny choke, engage in the open as much as you can). If you are worried about them microing away too much, throw in 2 infestors and fungal when you engage.
As for your profile, how can you call out wrecking diamond protoss constantly with burrow roaches and then not defend your statement with a simple profile link? You attack me for being in diamond, but are not able to defend your statement?
On August 11 2011 14:10 ETisME wrote: because it is harder. You miss one injection, the consequence is much higher than missing a boost or mule. This doesn't get more merciful in late game too, if you miss a mule or boost, you can mass boost and mule for immediate effect but if you miss an injection, you are going to have a much smaller reinforcement and can cost you the game.
o__o That wasn't my point, but o-k...this is an entirely different argument.
Why is the player missing injections? For unit production, that's like a Protoss missing a warp-gate cycle or a Terran forgetting to queue any units. You're attributing player mistakes to the races.
Well mostly high level zergs usually don't forget to inject. They do choose to do so sometimes. Injecting takes a lot of screen time(which is proportional to the number of bases you have) therefore you need to choose - if you'r under attack - do you inject, or do you micro your infestors?
On August 11 2011 13:59 TheRabidDeer wrote: am only diamond
There's your problem. I beat Protoss every game in Diamond by maxing on burrowed Roaches. Doesn't mean it's a legit strategy after a certain point.
So, how do you suggest a protoss deal with ling/bling/ultra/infestor? The only reason infestors are even needed is so you dont get kited, its not reliant on their damage.
Anyway, you are clearly better than everybody and you know all... so maybe we should all just bow to your superior knowledge and ability... even though you dont even say anything of merit.
storms for banelings feedback for infestors (no need to land many) archons for ultras
watch huk vs destiny on shakuras. Destiny maxes on the army you stated with only 40 drones and loses to a smaller supply Protoss army.
Sure is "unbeatable". And no I'm not complaining about imbalance, but saying this composition is unbeatable is just goddamn retarded.
Do you have a link to this game? Because I find it hard to believe it would lose, even with the composition you talk about. I imagine since it is a destiny game he probably had way too many infestors and not enough banelings/lings.
EDIT: Also, what are your qualifications? I wouldnt mind seeing your bnet profile, since you bash on diamonds pretty hard.
Banelings are missing but are instead replaced by multiple brood lords. Which in this scenario is better because banelings are for the low tier gateway units which HuK doesn't use to win. I also know the worker counts and such because it's was streamed on IPL and showed the unit counts.
As for my profile, let's not make this an epenis pissing contest
So it is that game. That is nothing like the composition that I am talking about. Destiny's zerg is very heavy on harass and late game and very little about brute force. He gets a lot of infestors to delay, deal bits of damage, do hit and runs and other things. He doesnt get them as a pure damage source in most cases. Also, the time in which he gets brood lords is just too late, by the time he reaches just an expansion of HuK, he already has a chunk of VR's out in addition to him attacking at the worst possible angle with the dragoon v2 (ultralisk), 90% of his ground army isnt even engaging HuK.
I am telling you, without a doubt, if you just TRY it, ling/bling/ultralisk raaaaaaapppppeeeeeesssssss protoss. Like 5-6 ultras, like 70 cracklings and 50 banelings. Attack move in and you will pretty much win (assuming no tiny choke, engage in the open as much as you can). If you are worried about them microing away too much, throw in 2 infestors and fungal when you engage.
As for your profile, how can you call out wrecking diamond protoss constantly with burrow roaches and then not defend your statement with a simple profile link? You attack me for being in diamond, but are not able to defend your statement?
I stopped reading after I realized you didn't watch the game.
On August 11 2011 14:10 ETisME wrote: because it is harder. You miss one injection, the consequence is much higher than missing a boost or mule. This doesn't get more merciful in late game too, if you miss a mule or boost, you can mass boost and mule for immediate effect but if you miss an injection, you are going to have a much smaller reinforcement and can cost you the game.
o__o That wasn't my point, but o-k...this is an entirely different argument.
Why is the player missing injections? For unit production, that's like a Protoss missing a warp-gate cycle or a Terran forgetting to queue any units. You're attributing player mistakes to the races.
because it isn't about spamming hotkeys to make sure the units are coming out constantly (or looking at that mini icon for warp gate cycle)
I think you should play zerg and see how it works. Unless you hotkey individual hatchery, you cannot see the larva spawn progress, meaning that every so often, you would want to do a base cycle to check how long until the larva is spawn and if you need to inject soon. Some pro will line up the injection timing but it only works with 3 bases the most (I caught this in Idra's replay), eventually most would have to throw down a macro hatchery.
attributing player mistakes to the races certainly is a thing that cannot be ignored, because no one plays perfect injection/mule/chrono in an equally skilled match. But injection is the most punishing for sure.
On August 11 2011 05:10 Lewan72 wrote: I hate it when people say Protoss is 1a move attack win. Protoss requires the MOST micro out of any race. If anything ZERG is a 1a move attack win race (not trying to diss on zerg, zerg is still hard and you have to macro very good). And then they say Protoss is then OP when we have the lowest winrate. Yay
And how do protoss require the most micro? In my opinion the most micro intensive race is terran. However I find your testimony about zerg false and still biased. What if you have banelings in your zerg army? Should we now micro overlord drops? What if we had mutalisks lings and banelings? Should we just 1a all our army and lose all we have?
This thread feels like a thread for mass controversy
On August 11 2011 13:59 TheRabidDeer wrote: am only diamond
There's your problem. I beat Protoss every game in Diamond by maxing on burrowed Roaches. Doesn't mean it's a legit strategy after a certain point.
So, how do you suggest a protoss deal with ling/bling/ultra/infestor? The only reason infestors are even needed is so you dont get kited, its not reliant on their damage.
Anyway, you are clearly better than everybody and you know all... so maybe we should all just bow to your superior knowledge and ability... even though you dont even say anything of merit.
storms for banelings feedback for infestors (no need to land many) archons for ultras
watch huk vs destiny on shakuras. Destiny maxes on the army you stated with only 40 drones and loses to a smaller supply Protoss army.
Sure is "unbeatable". And no I'm not complaining about imbalance, but saying this composition is unbeatable is just goddamn retarded.
Do you have a link to this game? Because I find it hard to believe it would lose, even with the composition you talk about. I imagine since it is a destiny game he probably had way too many infestors and not enough banelings/lings.
EDIT: Also, what are your qualifications? I wouldnt mind seeing your bnet profile, since you bash on diamonds pretty hard.
Banelings are missing but are instead replaced by multiple brood lords. Which in this scenario is better because banelings are for the low tier gateway units which HuK doesn't use to win. I also know the worker counts and such because it's was streamed on IPL and showed the unit counts.
As for my profile, let's not make this an epenis pissing contest
So it is that game. That is nothing like the composition that I am talking about. Destiny's zerg is very heavy on harass and late game and very little about brute force. He gets a lot of infestors to delay, deal bits of damage, do hit and runs and other things. He doesnt get them as a pure damage source in most cases. Also, the time in which he gets brood lords is just too late, by the time he reaches just an expansion of HuK, he already has a chunk of VR's out in addition to him attacking at the worst possible angle with the dragoon v2 (ultralisk), 90% of his ground army isnt even engaging HuK.
I am telling you, without a doubt, if you just TRY it, ling/bling/ultralisk raaaaaaapppppeeeeeesssssss protoss. Like 5-6 ultras, like 70 cracklings and 50 banelings. Attack move in and you will pretty much win (assuming no tiny choke, engage in the open as much as you can). If you are worried about them microing away too much, throw in 2 infestors and fungal when you engage.
As for your profile, how can you call out wrecking diamond protoss constantly with burrow roaches and then not defend your statement with a simple profile link? You attack me for being in diamond, but are not able to defend your statement?
I stopped reading after I realized you didn't watch the game.
I watched from about 15 minutes on, I found that specific game before I asked you to link it and watched it, but thought that couldnt possibly be the game you were talking about considering IT ISNT EVEN THE COMPOSITION I AM TALKING ABOUT.
Basically, youre an idiot.
Pop quiz:
What is the outcome of this fight? How many of what unit does either side have afterwards (zerg is also 2-3, and protoss lays down 2 pretty good storms))?
Few reasons: 1. 1 and 2 base is very strong for Protoss 2. Warpgate tech allows instant warp ins and doesn't require larva build up and Queen micro, nor does it require timings as with Terran you slowly stream out units to their death 3. Chrono boost upgrades 4. While good micro does help, 1a is extremely effective as Protoss because the units are so strong. Good Protoss players obviously micro, but I believe lower league players require less skill to win with Protoss than any other race for this and other reasons. 5. They're given a lot of slack--if your HTs run out of energy you can make Archons. Immortals hard-counter almost every unit that does more than 10 damage. Colossus are pretty much impossible to counter with ground units and force air-air combat, taking up a lot of supply. 6. They have Sentries very early on and can FF their ramp shut, FF your ramp shut, FF anything on the map and it's not like it requires particular skill, unless you want to do it well.
Probably others. That said, I don't think it'd be fair to say Protoss is overpowered since their performance in recent tournaments has been negligible, but a low level Zerg would lose to a same-skilled Protoss (imo) and this only shifts at upper levels of play.
On August 11 2011 14:10 ETisME wrote: because it is harder. You miss one injection, the consequence is much higher than missing a boost or mule. This doesn't get more merciful in late game too, if you miss a mule or boost, you can mass boost and mule for immediate effect but if you miss an injection, you are going to have a much smaller reinforcement and can cost you the game.
o__o That wasn't my point, but o-k...this is an entirely different argument.
Why is the player missing injections? For unit production, that's like a Protoss missing a warp-gate cycle or a Terran forgetting to queue any units. You're attributing player mistakes to the races.
You have to order your macro-comparisons straight: Macro mechanics: Chrono, Inject, Mule Production cycle: Missed warping, Unspent larvae, Empty rax/fact/port
P.S. Reading through this thread, I realized that it seems a lot of people who haven't played much zerg do not quite understand how larvae works. I'm not sure exactly how to explain, but please check for yourself how it actually works. It doesn't auto-produce itself, if unspent, and it can never be more than 19 (next round dies). Check it out, you may find it fun
Protoss gets all this hate because there was a period early in the game were they definitely WERE the easiest race to get up to a certain standard of play. The deathball was nigh-on unbeatable, storms were a nightmare with amulet and the classic 4 gate was still viable in all matchups
Lately it seems the other races have found a lot of counters to the stock Protoss builds, and the race just generally seems to lack something at the highest levels of play. Inside the game had a pretty good discussion on it, made more amusing by Idra's BM
Anyway, I suppose it's like what being a zerg was in the early days. Certain people will look at the win rates, the fact Protoss are getting STOMPED in damn near every tournament and think, hm maybe Protoss needs a fix, or IDEALLY someone starts figuring out new standard builds to shift our current metagame.
Protoss I think is the only race that gets pretty big nerfs patch after patch and sees an exponentional whine in how "OP" they are as well, one of the lovely perks of our race.
Then some people will still claim, despite ALL empirical evidence to the contrary that Protoss are overpowered and easy, but hey you can't win them all.
So, to respond to the original question, the answer is actually that this is a proud tradition of StarCraft culture. Who are we to argue against the legacy of our forefathers? Protoss is the easy race, it has always been the easy race, and it will always be the easy race, regardless of change or evidence of any kind. To have it any other way would be a betrayal of our identity as StarCraft gamers.
Of course, many people have tried to give cause to this traditional wisdom, but none has proven satisfactory. Perhaps you'd like to hear mine? It is based on the stories I have heard of the heroes and legends of the distant past.
People tell of how BoxeR abandoned Protoss to forge the Empire of Terrans. Whispered tales endure of how he left his original team due to a lack of Protoss practice partners. And the legends speak of Protoss being his worst matchup. If these stories are true, then we may speculate that, as history if written by the victors, the Emperor's grievances were enshrined in law, that Protoss should be hated and persecuted for as long as the reign of Terrans endured, as it still does to this day.
And though I be myself a Protoss, out of love and respect for the Emperor, I shall abide by his will. Long reign the Emperor! And forever scorned shall be the 1a2a3aGG easy race!
On August 11 2011 14:27 figq wrote:Two quick points: 1. Zerg has more bases -> more times must perform the macro mechanic. 2. Zerg can't "multi-inject" to catch up with missed injects, while terrans easily multi-mule, and protoss to a great extent can make use of multi-chrono. I'm not saying Zerg is more difficult in general, only answering your specific question about the queens.
1. Mehhh, debateable. I thought I explained that well enough with my original post. D:
I have 3 bases and want to chronoboost 3 things. Let's say a robo bay, a robo facility, and a forge [robohotkey]-6-z-[click] [robofacilityhotkey]-6-z-[click] [forgehotkey]-6-z-[click]
I have 3 hatcheries and want to inject 3 times. space-4-x-[clickhatch] space-4-x-[clickhatch] space-4-x-[clickhatch]
I have 3 bases and want to drop a mule at each to have equal mule saturation (maybe?) space-6-x-[click minerals] space-x-[click minerals] space-x-[click minerals]
2. I honestly can't say I'm knowledgable enough in the losses of injection/muling/chrono for seconds missed, so I won't argue that point. Yes, they cannot multi-inject like the other races can stack missed macro-mechanics. If anyone has information on this, I'd be very interested in learning.
On August 11 2011 14:39 ETisME wrote: because it isn't about spamming hotkeys to make sure the units are coming out constantly (or looking at that mini icon for warp gate cycle)
I think you should play zerg and see how it works. Unless you hotkey individual hatchery, you cannot see the larva spawn progress, meaning that every so often, you would want to do a base cycle to check how long until the larva is spawn and if you need to inject soon. Some pro will line up the injection timing but it only works with 3 bases the most (I caught this in Idra's replay), eventually most would have to throw down a macro hatchery.
attributing player mistakes to the races certainly is a thing that cannot be ignored, because no one plays perfect injection/mule/chrono in an equally skilled match. But injection is the most punishing for sure.
I'll never understand why there is that icon for warp-gate...
Base cycling is something I feel anyone should be doing anyways, because usually there's free time to do it...there's a very convenient camera hotkey to cycle through bases without even having to select them. In a situation where you cannot leave your screen and want to check Larva timings, wouldn't "6-[click hatch wireframe] 6-[click hatch wireframe] 6-[click hatch wireframe]" work for checking three bases quickly without moving away from the screen? I wouldn't say it's punishing as much as encourages practice and focus.
On August 11 2011 13:59 TheRabidDeer wrote: am only diamond
There's your problem. I beat Protoss every game in Diamond by maxing on burrowed Roaches. Doesn't mean it's a legit strategy after a certain point.
So, how do you suggest a protoss deal with ling/bling/ultra/infestor? The only reason infestors are even needed is so you dont get kited, its not reliant on their damage.
Anyway, you are clearly better than everybody and you know all... so maybe we should all just bow to your superior knowledge and ability... even though you dont even say anything of merit.
storms for banelings feedback for infestors (no need to land many) archons for ultras
watch huk vs destiny on shakuras. Destiny maxes on the army you stated with only 40 drones and loses to a smaller supply Protoss army.
Sure is "unbeatable". And no I'm not complaining about imbalance, but saying this composition is unbeatable is just goddamn retarded.
Do you have a link to this game? Because I find it hard to believe it would lose, even with the composition you talk about. I imagine since it is a destiny game he probably had way too many infestors and not enough banelings/lings.
EDIT: Also, what are your qualifications? I wouldnt mind seeing your bnet profile, since you bash on diamonds pretty hard.
Banelings are missing but are instead replaced by multiple brood lords. Which in this scenario is better because banelings are for the low tier gateway units which HuK doesn't use to win. I also know the worker counts and such because it's was streamed on IPL and showed the unit counts.
As for my profile, let's not make this an epenis pissing contest
So it is that game. That is nothing like the composition that I am talking about. Destiny's zerg is very heavy on harass and late game and very little about brute force. He gets a lot of infestors to delay, deal bits of damage, do hit and runs and other things. He doesnt get them as a pure damage source in most cases. Also, the time in which he gets brood lords is just too late, by the time he reaches just an expansion of HuK, he already has a chunk of VR's out in addition to him attacking at the worst possible angle with the dragoon v2 (ultralisk), 90% of his ground army isnt even engaging HuK.
I am telling you, without a doubt, if you just TRY it, ling/bling/ultralisk raaaaaaapppppeeeeeesssssss protoss. Like 5-6 ultras, like 70 cracklings and 50 banelings. Attack move in and you will pretty much win (assuming no tiny choke, engage in the open as much as you can). If you are worried about them microing away too much, throw in 2 infestors and fungal when you engage.
As for your profile, how can you call out wrecking diamond protoss constantly with burrow roaches and then not defend your statement with a simple profile link? You attack me for being in diamond, but are not able to defend your statement?
I stopped reading after I realized you didn't watch the game.
I watched from about 15 minutes on, I found that specific game before I asked you to link it and watched it, but thought that couldnt possibly be the game you were talking about considering IT ISNT EVEN THE COMPOSITION I AM TALKING ABOUT.
Basically, youre an idiot.
Pop quiz:
What is the outcome of this fight? How many of what unit does either side have afterwards (zerg is also 2-3, and protoss lays down 2 pretty good storms))?
I would guess protoss, assuming he gets good storms. But thats fairly irrelevant since the zerg is using ling/bane which is hardcountered by storm and the few ultras will be handled by the immortal and archons. He should be using roaches,broodlords and infestors. Its like complaining that a massive marine ball loses to colossus with no skill required. WELL NO FUCKING SHIT ITS THE COUNTER.
Btw, to counter your that composition I would suggest colossus, banelings and zerglings are absolutely horrible vs colossus. Blink stalkers or HT for the infestor, whichever you think works best, they are both hard to use but can counter infestors with skill, for the ultras get immortals archons and zealots if he doesnt have enough banes.
On August 11 2011 13:59 TheRabidDeer wrote: am only diamond
There's your problem. I beat Protoss every game in Diamond by maxing on burrowed Roaches. Doesn't mean it's a legit strategy after a certain point.
So, how do you suggest a protoss deal with ling/bling/ultra/infestor? The only reason infestors are even needed is so you dont get kited, its not reliant on their damage.
Anyway, you are clearly better than everybody and you know all... so maybe we should all just bow to your superior knowledge and ability... even though you dont even say anything of merit.
storms for banelings feedback for infestors (no need to land many) archons for ultras
watch huk vs destiny on shakuras. Destiny maxes on the army you stated with only 40 drones and loses to a smaller supply Protoss army.
Sure is "unbeatable". And no I'm not complaining about imbalance, but saying this composition is unbeatable is just goddamn retarded.
Do you have a link to this game? Because I find it hard to believe it would lose, even with the composition you talk about. I imagine since it is a destiny game he probably had way too many infestors and not enough banelings/lings.
EDIT: Also, what are your qualifications? I wouldnt mind seeing your bnet profile, since you bash on diamonds pretty hard.
Banelings are missing but are instead replaced by multiple brood lords. Which in this scenario is better because banelings are for the low tier gateway units which HuK doesn't use to win. I also know the worker counts and such because it's was streamed on IPL and showed the unit counts.
As for my profile, let's not make this an epenis pissing contest
So it is that game. That is nothing like the composition that I am talking about. Destiny's zerg is very heavy on harass and late game and very little about brute force. He gets a lot of infestors to delay, deal bits of damage, do hit and runs and other things. He doesnt get them as a pure damage source in most cases. Also, the time in which he gets brood lords is just too late, by the time he reaches just an expansion of HuK, he already has a chunk of VR's out in addition to him attacking at the worst possible angle with the dragoon v2 (ultralisk), 90% of his ground army isnt even engaging HuK.
I am telling you, without a doubt, if you just TRY it, ling/bling/ultralisk raaaaaaapppppeeeeeesssssss protoss. Like 5-6 ultras, like 70 cracklings and 50 banelings. Attack move in and you will pretty much win (assuming no tiny choke, engage in the open as much as you can). If you are worried about them microing away too much, throw in 2 infestors and fungal when you engage.
As for your profile, how can you call out wrecking diamond protoss constantly with burrow roaches and then not defend your statement with a simple profile link? You attack me for being in diamond, but are not able to defend your statement?
I stopped reading after I realized you didn't watch the game.
I watched from about 15 minutes on, I found that specific game before I asked you to link it and watched it, but thought that couldnt possibly be the game you were talking about considering IT ISNT EVEN THE COMPOSITION I AM TALKING ABOUT.
Basically, youre an idiot.
Pop quiz:
What is the outcome of this fight? How many of what unit does either side have afterwards (zerg is also 2-3, and protoss lays down 2 pretty good storms))?
Your composition is Ultralisk/Baneling/Infestor/Zergling Destiny's compisition is Ultralisk/Infestor/Zergling/Brood Lord
Now the point of banelings is to deliver splash damage to Zealots, Stalkers, and other non-heavy units.
HuK had very little of this and instead had more Archons which banelings do not do well against whatsoever, instead Destiny had Brood Lords which are a much better replacement against HuK's composition. Do you see what I am getting at or should I close teamliquid right now and leave forever because of how retarded most posters are?
Now let's look at your image. The Protoss has 2 High Templars meaning those banelings are going to live and kill the entire stalker/zealot army.
Then there's a fact he doesn't nearly have enough ultra/baneling hardcounter units to withstand the attacks from the Ultralisks if they are supported.
On August 11 2011 13:59 TheRabidDeer wrote: am only diamond
There's your problem. I beat Protoss every game in Diamond by maxing on burrowed Roaches. Doesn't mean it's a legit strategy after a certain point.
So, how do you suggest a protoss deal with ling/bling/ultra/infestor? The only reason infestors are even needed is so you dont get kited, its not reliant on their damage.
Anyway, you are clearly better than everybody and you know all... so maybe we should all just bow to your superior knowledge and ability... even though you dont even say anything of merit.
storms for banelings feedback for infestors (no need to land many) archons for ultras
watch huk vs destiny on shakuras. Destiny maxes on the army you stated with only 40 drones and loses to a smaller supply Protoss army.
Sure is "unbeatable". And no I'm not complaining about imbalance, but saying this composition is unbeatable is just goddamn retarded.
Do you have a link to this game? Because I find it hard to believe it would lose, even with the composition you talk about. I imagine since it is a destiny game he probably had way too many infestors and not enough banelings/lings.
EDIT: Also, what are your qualifications? I wouldnt mind seeing your bnet profile, since you bash on diamonds pretty hard.
Banelings are missing but are instead replaced by multiple brood lords. Which in this scenario is better because banelings are for the low tier gateway units which HuK doesn't use to win. I also know the worker counts and such because it's was streamed on IPL and showed the unit counts.
As for my profile, let's not make this an epenis pissing contest
So it is that game. That is nothing like the composition that I am talking about. Destiny's zerg is very heavy on harass and late game and very little about brute force. He gets a lot of infestors to delay, deal bits of damage, do hit and runs and other things. He doesnt get them as a pure damage source in most cases. Also, the time in which he gets brood lords is just too late, by the time he reaches just an expansion of HuK, he already has a chunk of VR's out in addition to him attacking at the worst possible angle with the dragoon v2 (ultralisk), 90% of his ground army isnt even engaging HuK.
I am telling you, without a doubt, if you just TRY it, ling/bling/ultralisk raaaaaaapppppeeeeeesssssss protoss. Like 5-6 ultras, like 70 cracklings and 50 banelings. Attack move in and you will pretty much win (assuming no tiny choke, engage in the open as much as you can). If you are worried about them microing away too much, throw in 2 infestors and fungal when you engage.
As for your profile, how can you call out wrecking diamond protoss constantly with burrow roaches and then not defend your statement with a simple profile link? You attack me for being in diamond, but are not able to defend your statement?
I stopped reading after I realized you didn't watch the game.
I watched from about 15 minutes on, I found that specific game before I asked you to link it and watched it, but thought that couldnt possibly be the game you were talking about considering IT ISNT EVEN THE COMPOSITION I AM TALKING ABOUT.
Basically, youre an idiot.
Pop quiz:
What is the outcome of this fight? How many of what unit does either side have afterwards (zerg is also 2-3, and protoss lays down 2 pretty good storms))?
I would guess protoss, assuming he gets good storms. But thats fairly irrelevant since the zerg is using ling/bane which is hardcountered by storm and the few ultras will be handled by the immortal and archons. He should be using roaches,broodlords and infestors. Its like complaining that a massive marine ball loses to colossus with no skill required. WELL NO FUCKING SHIT ITS THE COUNTER.
Way off. Like, seriously way off (and is why I am posting about my composition and not destiny's composition).
On August 11 2011 14:04 Joey Wheeler wrote: [quote] There's your problem. I beat Protoss every game in Diamond by maxing on burrowed Roaches. Doesn't mean it's a legit strategy after a certain point.
So, how do you suggest a protoss deal with ling/bling/ultra/infestor? The only reason infestors are even needed is so you dont get kited, its not reliant on their damage.
Anyway, you are clearly better than everybody and you know all... so maybe we should all just bow to your superior knowledge and ability... even though you dont even say anything of merit.
storms for banelings feedback for infestors (no need to land many) archons for ultras
watch huk vs destiny on shakuras. Destiny maxes on the army you stated with only 40 drones and loses to a smaller supply Protoss army.
Sure is "unbeatable". And no I'm not complaining about imbalance, but saying this composition is unbeatable is just goddamn retarded.
Do you have a link to this game? Because I find it hard to believe it would lose, even with the composition you talk about. I imagine since it is a destiny game he probably had way too many infestors and not enough banelings/lings.
EDIT: Also, what are your qualifications? I wouldnt mind seeing your bnet profile, since you bash on diamonds pretty hard.
Banelings are missing but are instead replaced by multiple brood lords. Which in this scenario is better because banelings are for the low tier gateway units which HuK doesn't use to win. I also know the worker counts and such because it's was streamed on IPL and showed the unit counts.
As for my profile, let's not make this an epenis pissing contest
So it is that game. That is nothing like the composition that I am talking about. Destiny's zerg is very heavy on harass and late game and very little about brute force. He gets a lot of infestors to delay, deal bits of damage, do hit and runs and other things. He doesnt get them as a pure damage source in most cases. Also, the time in which he gets brood lords is just too late, by the time he reaches just an expansion of HuK, he already has a chunk of VR's out in addition to him attacking at the worst possible angle with the dragoon v2 (ultralisk), 90% of his ground army isnt even engaging HuK.
I am telling you, without a doubt, if you just TRY it, ling/bling/ultralisk raaaaaaapppppeeeeeesssssss protoss. Like 5-6 ultras, like 70 cracklings and 50 banelings. Attack move in and you will pretty much win (assuming no tiny choke, engage in the open as much as you can). If you are worried about them microing away too much, throw in 2 infestors and fungal when you engage.
As for your profile, how can you call out wrecking diamond protoss constantly with burrow roaches and then not defend your statement with a simple profile link? You attack me for being in diamond, but are not able to defend your statement?
I stopped reading after I realized you didn't watch the game.
I watched from about 15 minutes on, I found that specific game before I asked you to link it and watched it, but thought that couldnt possibly be the game you were talking about considering IT ISNT EVEN THE COMPOSITION I AM TALKING ABOUT.
Basically, youre an idiot.
Pop quiz:
What is the outcome of this fight? How many of what unit does either side have afterwards (zerg is also 2-3, and protoss lays down 2 pretty good storms))?
I would guess protoss, assuming he gets good storms. But thats fairly irrelevant since the zerg is using ling/bane which is hardcountered by storm and the few ultras will be handled by the immortal and archons. He should be using roaches,broodlords and infestors. Its like complaining that a massive marine ball loses to colossus with no skill required. WELL NO FUCKING SHIT ITS THE COUNTER.
Way off. Like, seriously way off (and is why I am posting about my composition and not destiny's composition).
I didn't see the infestors, I hsould have checked the unit bar, I just went off what was purely on screen. zerg is 50 supply up, its no surprise they won.
if the game is balanced around optimal play then optimal use of gateways will usually be to produce out of them constantly, so you'll need to warpin exactly when the cooldowns finish....
of course, the same can be said for larva injects (you should usually hit all your inject timings and produce from all larva) , and all T production (you shouldn't queue), but I don't get the theoretical argument for P macro being easier at top level
hypotheticaly,if this game was 100% balanced ,and protoss was the easiest race,wouldnt protoss be the most represented race at gsl and top of ladder?if its the easiest then more protosses would be at the top,but there not they are the least represented so either protoss is UP or protoss isnt the easiest race.....
the only people who think protoss is easy are the same people who dont play the race, i mean sure strats like 4 gate is easy but (so is 3 rax or roachling all in) but macro toss is in no way easy, im not saying zerg is easy but zergs make it out like satturating 3 bases as zerg and just pumping out units for the rest of the game such a challenge(yea sure you cant miss queen injects,well guess what we cant miss warp in cycles)
I read this thread and I see that here is post where is said that its easier to win as toss. Yeah because most of the posters are low league players and there its easier to win as protoss and now I mean bronze - plat with lower leagues because I think that in diamond you already have to micro and stuff. And people is saying that toss is 1a, well it isnt you have to place ur army right because 2 fungal/emp to army that isnt split and battle lost. And after splitting army you have to throw GOOD FF, yeah its easy to throw ff but placements have to be good because in some situations you might just block your own zealots with them or if there is coming some lings to your base and you miss ur force field with 1cm they just run in. If you have colossus you have to micro it if ur opponent is good at all, you have to blink stalkers to keep them alive since marauder/roach kills them in few sec and then there is high templar you have to throw storms and feedbacks. I think terran needs most micro because you have to kite enemies, emp and so on. And I think that zerg is the most 1a race, think about it for example you have lings, roaches, brood lords what you have to do against toss? 1a if you lose ur army ýou just remax it with roaches or lings or in the worst case with 20 ultras. But thats just my opinion. And yeah Im just diamond.
well, there's the "oh shit" moment that every player gets in starcraft. but races other than Toss actually have to wait for units to pop. but Toss have warpgates so you can get units instantly. (this applies most in battles and late game situations when high apm is requred)
also, in early game, protoss doesn't need to worry about their mienral/gas ratio compared to zerg and terran. zerg is almost always encouraged to take drones off gas after speed and terrans really need to know how many gas /when to take it depending on build. protoss, on the other hand, can make any combination of units. for example. lots of zealots when mineral is high, ltos of sentries when gas is high, and lots of stalkers if mineral and gas is relatively even.
and for protoss, you don't need to constatly need to "larva inject" (meaning that there's one less apm thing to worry about)
and in battles, protoss is not that micro-intensive. things to worry about in battles: 1. forcefeild 2. put collosus at the back 3. blink (optional)
but terrans need to split marines, constalty seige and unseige, drop while pushing(optioal), stim at right times and such I don't think I need to explain what a zerg needs to do in battles
and one last thing. since protoss units cost the most food, (no attacking units cost 1 food), they have less units, but max out quicker (less units to control and position in battles) and it takes less clicks to make them.
On August 11 2011 13:59 TheRabidDeer wrote: am only diamond
There's your problem. I beat Protoss every game in Diamond by maxing on burrowed Roaches. Doesn't mean it's a legit strategy after a certain point.
So, how do you suggest a protoss deal with ling/bling/ultra/infestor? The only reason infestors are even needed is so you dont get kited, its not reliant on their damage.
Anyway, you are clearly better than everybody and you know all... so maybe we should all just bow to your superior knowledge and ability... even though you dont even say anything of merit.
storms for banelings feedback for infestors (no need to land many) archons for ultras
watch huk vs destiny on shakuras. Destiny maxes on the army you stated with only 40 drones and loses to a smaller supply Protoss army.
Sure is "unbeatable". And no I'm not complaining about imbalance, but saying this composition is unbeatable is just goddamn retarded.
Do you have a link to this game? Because I find it hard to believe it would lose, even with the composition you talk about. I imagine since it is a destiny game he probably had way too many infestors and not enough banelings/lings.
EDIT: Also, what are your qualifications? I wouldnt mind seeing your bnet profile, since you bash on diamonds pretty hard.
Banelings are missing but are instead replaced by multiple brood lords. Which in this scenario is better because banelings are for the low tier gateway units which HuK doesn't use to win. I also know the worker counts and such because it's was streamed on IPL and showed the unit counts.
As for my profile, let's not make this an epenis pissing contest
So it is that game. That is nothing like the composition that I am talking about. Destiny's zerg is very heavy on harass and late game and very little about brute force. He gets a lot of infestors to delay, deal bits of damage, do hit and runs and other things. He doesnt get them as a pure damage source in most cases. Also, the time in which he gets brood lords is just too late, by the time he reaches just an expansion of HuK, he already has a chunk of VR's out in addition to him attacking at the worst possible angle with the dragoon v2 (ultralisk), 90% of his ground army isnt even engaging HuK.
I am telling you, without a doubt, if you just TRY it, ling/bling/ultralisk raaaaaaapppppeeeeeesssssss protoss. Like 5-6 ultras, like 70 cracklings and 50 banelings. Attack move in and you will pretty much win (assuming no tiny choke, engage in the open as much as you can). If you are worried about them microing away too much, throw in 2 infestors and fungal when you engage.
As for your profile, how can you call out wrecking diamond protoss constantly with burrow roaches and then not defend your statement with a simple profile link? You attack me for being in diamond, but are not able to defend your statement?
I stopped reading after I realized you didn't watch the game.
I watched from about 15 minutes on, I found that specific game before I asked you to link it and watched it, but thought that couldnt possibly be the game you were talking about considering IT ISNT EVEN THE COMPOSITION I AM TALKING ABOUT.
Basically, youre an idiot.
Pop quiz:
What is the outcome of this fight? How many of what unit does either side have afterwards (zerg is also 2-3, and protoss lays down 2 pretty good storms))?
Your composition is Ultralisk/Baneling/Infestor/Zergling Destiny's compisition is Ultralisk/Infestor/Zergling/Brood Lord
Now the point of banelings is to deliver splash damage to Zealots, Stalkers, and other non-heavy units.
HuK had very little of this and instead had more Archons which banelings do not do well against whatsoever, instead Destiny had Brood Lords which are a much better replacement against HuK's composition. Do you see what I am getting at or should I close teamliquid right now and leave forever because of how retarded most posters are?
Now let's look at your image. The Protoss has 2 High Templars meaning those banelings are going to live and kill the entire stalker/zealot army.
Then there's a fact he doesn't nearly have enough ultra/baneling hardcounter units to withstand the attacks from the Ultralisks if they are supported.
More archons more immortals more high templars
Actually, the point in which I am referencing (when the broodlords first pop out) HuK has no archons at all.
Also, I already address Destiny's composition and goal with his composition. It is a harass based poke and prod style. It isnt a brute force attack that tries to overwhelm the opponent. He ALWAYS gets 20+ infestors. And while infestors are good, and can deal huge amounts of damage... it isnt frontloaded damage in most cases. You have to engage THEN throw IT's out which means they come after a lot of your army is dead, which means you cant do anything after the fight. What MY composition does is it frontloads ALL of the damage, then you still have the heavy duty expensive long build time units in the end and reinforce with a lot more cheap and quick building ling/baneling. This means you rebuild extremely quickly and can punish afterwards.
Going back to HuK vs Destiny though, you are wrong about the archons entirely. He doesnt get archons until pretty near 31 minutes into that video. Up until that point it is the exact composition that ling/bling/ultra (+infestor) destroys.
On August 11 2011 14:43 figq wrote:You have to order your macro-comparisons straight: Macro mechanics: Chrono, Inject, Mule Production cycle: Missed warping, Unspent larvae, Empty rax/fact/port
P.S. Reading through this thread, I realized that it seems a lot of people who haven't play much zerg do not quite understand how larvae works. I'm not sure exactly how to explain, but please check for yourself how it actually works. It doesn't auto-produce itself, if unspent, and it can never be more than 19 (next round dies). Check it out, you may find it fun
Sorry, it was bad wording on my part. Inject larvae->production cycles are connected for Zerg, making the entire thing so much more complicated. Note the for unit production. Arguably, missing injects IS unspent larvae. And I'm bad at articulating my thoughts...so that's where the comparison got a little fuzzy. I agree, though, and even would go so far as to say larvae are one of the most interesting components of the game. Lucky zerg ,__,
On August 11 2011 14:27 figq wrote:Two quick points: 1. Zerg has more bases -> more times must perform the macro mechanic. 2. Zerg can't "multi-inject" to catch up with missed injects, while terrans easily multi-mule, and protoss to a great extent can make use of multi-chrono. I'm not saying Zerg is more difficult in general, only answering your specific question about the queens.
1. Mehhh, debateable. I thought I explained that well enough with my original post. D:
I understood your original post, no need to repeat it. The point is: Terran and Protoss don't need to worry about spending their mule and chrono on time, which allows them to battle more easily. They can spend it later, without losing it. The unspent inject can't be "multi-spent" to catch up. And the zerg must have more bases to be equal. Don't know why after reading this, you again say 3-3-3.
Again, not saying zerg is more difficult as a race, only answering about why people consider the queens to be the most difficult macro mechanic, compared to chrono and mules.
On August 11 2011 14:27 figq wrote:Two quick points: 1. Zerg has more bases -> more times must perform the macro mechanic. 2. Zerg can't "multi-inject" to catch up with missed injects, while terrans easily multi-mule, and protoss to a great extent can make use of multi-chrono. I'm not saying Zerg is more difficult in general, only answering your specific question about the queens.
I have 3 hatcheries and want to inject 3 times. space-4-x-[clickhatch] space-4-x-[clickhatch] space-4-x-[clickhatch]
2. I honestly can't say I'm knowledgable enough in the losses of injection/muling/chrono for seconds missed, so I won't argue that point. Yes, they cannot multi-inject like the other races can stack missed macro-mechanics. If anyone has information on this, I'd be very interested in learning.
On August 11 2011 14:39 ETisME wrote: because it isn't about spamming hotkeys to make sure the units are coming out constantly (or looking at that mini icon for warp gate cycle)
I think you should play zerg and see how it works. Unless you hotkey individual hatchery, you cannot see the larva spawn progress, meaning that every so often, you would want to do a base cycle to check how long until the larva is spawn and if you need to inject soon. Some pro will line up the injection timing but it only works with 3 bases the most (I caught this in Idra's replay), eventually most would have to throw down a macro hatchery.
attributing player mistakes to the races certainly is a thing that cannot be ignored, because no one plays perfect injection/mule/chrono in an equally skilled match. But injection is the most punishing for sure.
I'll never understand why there is that icon for warp-gate...
Base cycling is something I feel anyone should be doing anyways, because usually there's free time to do it...there's a very convenient camera hotkey to cycle through bases without even having to select them. In a situation where you cannot leave your screen and want to check Larva timings, wouldn't "6-[click hatch wireframe] 6-[click hatch wireframe] 6-[click hatch wireframe]" work for checking three bases quickly without moving away from the screen? I wouldn't say it's punishing as much as encourages practice and focus.
Not really, you don't want to look at your base so often as a zerg (I would imagine it is the same with other races), you don't want to spent time to look at your base, you want to make sure you are being active with your units, looking at the mini map and trying to get more vision.
"I have 3 hatcheries and want to inject 3 times. space-4-x-[clickhatch] space-4-x-[clickhatch] space-4-x-[clickhatch] " That is only true if the hatch injection time is perfectly lined up. Which it won't be after you get your third hatchery.
"In a situation where you cannot leave your screen and want to check Larva timings, wouldn't "6-[click hatch wireframe] 6-[click hatch wireframe] 6-[click hatch wireframe]" work for checking three bases quickly without moving away from the screen? " No, because if I am not able to leave my screen, then obviously I don't have the time to click on each my hatch to check my injection because I am too busy doing something else, which is most often engaging a huge army and trying to find an opening. Which is why as I have said, it isn't as simple as cycling hotkeys to check production.
Practise won't let you inject while microing a big engagement, you just won't be able to do so unless your army composition is way better and your army is quite a-move based. Which means in every game, there is a situation when you will have to choose between losing your entire army in an uneven battle for a "higher amount of reinforcement" or winning the battle evenly and having a lesser reinforcement.
On August 11 2011 14:04 Joey Wheeler wrote: [quote] There's your problem. I beat Protoss every game in Diamond by maxing on burrowed Roaches. Doesn't mean it's a legit strategy after a certain point.
So, how do you suggest a protoss deal with ling/bling/ultra/infestor? The only reason infestors are even needed is so you dont get kited, its not reliant on their damage.
Anyway, you are clearly better than everybody and you know all... so maybe we should all just bow to your superior knowledge and ability... even though you dont even say anything of merit.
storms for banelings feedback for infestors (no need to land many) archons for ultras
watch huk vs destiny on shakuras. Destiny maxes on the army you stated with only 40 drones and loses to a smaller supply Protoss army.
Sure is "unbeatable". And no I'm not complaining about imbalance, but saying this composition is unbeatable is just goddamn retarded.
Do you have a link to this game? Because I find it hard to believe it would lose, even with the composition you talk about. I imagine since it is a destiny game he probably had way too many infestors and not enough banelings/lings.
EDIT: Also, what are your qualifications? I wouldnt mind seeing your bnet profile, since you bash on diamonds pretty hard.
Banelings are missing but are instead replaced by multiple brood lords. Which in this scenario is better because banelings are for the low tier gateway units which HuK doesn't use to win. I also know the worker counts and such because it's was streamed on IPL and showed the unit counts.
As for my profile, let's not make this an epenis pissing contest
So it is that game. That is nothing like the composition that I am talking about. Destiny's zerg is very heavy on harass and late game and very little about brute force. He gets a lot of infestors to delay, deal bits of damage, do hit and runs and other things. He doesnt get them as a pure damage source in most cases. Also, the time in which he gets brood lords is just too late, by the time he reaches just an expansion of HuK, he already has a chunk of VR's out in addition to him attacking at the worst possible angle with the dragoon v2 (ultralisk), 90% of his ground army isnt even engaging HuK.
I am telling you, without a doubt, if you just TRY it, ling/bling/ultralisk raaaaaaapppppeeeeeesssssss protoss. Like 5-6 ultras, like 70 cracklings and 50 banelings. Attack move in and you will pretty much win (assuming no tiny choke, engage in the open as much as you can). If you are worried about them microing away too much, throw in 2 infestors and fungal when you engage.
As for your profile, how can you call out wrecking diamond protoss constantly with burrow roaches and then not defend your statement with a simple profile link? You attack me for being in diamond, but are not able to defend your statement?
I stopped reading after I realized you didn't watch the game.
I watched from about 15 minutes on, I found that specific game before I asked you to link it and watched it, but thought that couldnt possibly be the game you were talking about considering IT ISNT EVEN THE COMPOSITION I AM TALKING ABOUT.
Basically, youre an idiot.
Pop quiz:
What is the outcome of this fight? How many of what unit does either side have afterwards (zerg is also 2-3, and protoss lays down 2 pretty good storms))?
Your composition is Ultralisk/Baneling/Infestor/Zergling Destiny's compisition is Ultralisk/Infestor/Zergling/Brood Lord
Now the point of banelings is to deliver splash damage to Zealots, Stalkers, and other non-heavy units.
HuK had very little of this and instead had more Archons which banelings do not do well against whatsoever, instead Destiny had Brood Lords which are a much better replacement against HuK's composition. Do you see what I am getting at or should I close teamliquid right now and leave forever because of how retarded most posters are?
Now let's look at your image. The Protoss has 2 High Templars meaning those banelings are going to live and kill the entire stalker/zealot army.
Then there's a fact he doesn't nearly have enough ultra/baneling hardcounter units to withstand the attacks from the Ultralisks if they are supported.
More archons more immortals more high templars
Actually, the point in which I am referencing (when the broodlords first pop out) HuK has no archons at all.
Also, I already address Destiny's composition and goal with his composition. It is a harass based poke and prod style. It isnt a brute force attack that tries to overwhelm the opponent. He ALWAYS gets 20+ infestors. And while infestors are good, and can deal huge amounts of damage... it isnt frontloaded damage in most cases. You have to engage THEN throw IT's out which means they come after a lot of your army is dead, which means you cant do anything after the fight. What MY composition does is it frontloads ALL of the damage, then you still have the heavy duty expensive long build time units in the end and reinforce with a lot more cheap and quick building ling/baneling. This means you rebuild extremely quickly and can punish afterwards.
Going back to HuK vs Destiny though, you are wrong about the archons entirely. He doesnt get archons until pretty near 31 minutes into that video. Up until that point it is the exact composition that ling/bling/ultra (+infestor) destroys.
How hard is it to understand basic logic?
destiny attacks with brood lords, ultras, infestors, zerglings against huk's army which at the time does not have enough archons.
Destiny wins the battle and still has most of his army.
HuK makes a new army composed of mostly Archons, and wins. Destiny's composition of Brood Lords and more Infestors instead of Banelings is better against Archon builds for obvious reasons.
Do you see what I'm getting at? One more retarded post and I'm just closing TL
On August 11 2011 14:27 figq wrote:Two quick points: 1. Zerg has more bases -> more times must perform the macro mechanic. 2. Zerg can't "multi-inject" to catch up with missed injects, while terrans easily multi-mule, and protoss to a great extent can make use of multi-chrono. I'm not saying Zerg is more difficult in general, only answering your specific question about the queens.
1. Mehhh, debateable. I thought I explained that well enough with my original post. D:
I understood your original post, not need to repeat it. The point is: Terran and Protoss don't need to worry about spending their mule and chrono on time, which allows them to battle more easily. They can spend it later, without losing it. The unspent inject can't be "multi-spent" to catch up. And the zerg must have more bases to be equal. Don't know why after reading this, you again say 3-3-3.
Again, not saying zerg is more difficult as a race, only answering about why people consider the queens to be the most difficult macro mechanic, compared to chrono and mules.
Nonononononononononononononononononono. XD I completely understand the multi-spend, especially since you keep making me think about it, and ~it's lame for Zerg~. But the execution of these macro mechanics are pretty much equal for each race. Which was what my original post was really about. It was a very shallow anaylsis, I admit, but it was also meant to be very shallow...it was assuming a perfect player, honestly. :/
On August 11 2011 15:08 ETisME wrote: Not really, you don't want to look at your base so often as a zerg (I would imagine it is the same with other races), you don't want to spent time to look at your base, you want to make sure you are being active with your units, looking at the mini map and trying to get more vision.
"I have 3 hatcheries and want to inject 3 times. space-4-x-[clickhatch] space-4-x-[clickhatch] space-4-x-[clickhatch] " That is only true if the hatch injection time is perfectly lined up. Which it won't be after you get your third hatchery.
"In a situation where you cannot leave your screen and want to check Larva timings, wouldn't "6-[click hatch wireframe] 6-[click hatch wireframe] 6-[click hatch wireframe]" work for checking three bases quickly without moving away from the screen? " No, because if I am not able to leave my screen, then obviously I don't have the time to click on each my hatch to check my injection because I am too busy doing something else, which is most often engaging a huge army and trying to find an opening. Which is why as I have said, it isn't as simple as cycling hotkeys to check production.
Practise won't let you inject while microing a big engagement, you just won't be able to do so unless your army composition is way better and your army is quite a-move based. Which means in every game, there is a situation when you will have to choose between losing your entire army in an uneven battle for a "higher amount of reinforcement" or winning the battle evenly and having a lesser reinforcement.
Excuse me? I want to be looking EVERYWHERE, ALL the time. I can't, sadly, so I compensate by looking a lot of places quickly and gathering all the information as quickly as possible. You can definitely jump through your hatcheries while being active with your units, watching your minimap, and doing other stuff.
Yeah, that's kind of why I stuck to 3 bases...past that stuff gets weird. For all races, though...though arguably Protoss might have it easiest with the choices because they only have one choice for their Nexus energy.
Er...if you want to cycle through hotkeys to check larva timer, you can. It's an option to hotkey your Hatcheries to individual hotkeys if clicking wire-frames isn't comfortable.
Practice practice practice. Speed and consistency comes with practice. There are players who can inject while microing in an engagement, it comes with practice.
On August 11 2011 14:27 figq wrote:Two quick points: 1. Zerg has more bases -> more times must perform the macro mechanic. 2. Zerg can't "multi-inject" to catch up with missed injects, while terrans easily multi-mule, and protoss to a great extent can make use of multi-chrono. I'm not saying Zerg is more difficult in general, only answering your specific question about the queens.
1. Mehhh, debateable. I thought I explained that well enough with my original post. D:
I understood your original post, no need to repeat it. The point is: Terran and Protoss don't need to worry about spending their mule and chrono on time, which allows them to battle more easily. They can spend it later, without losing it. The unspent inject can't be "multi-spent" to catch up. And the zerg must have more bases to be equal. Don't know why after reading this, you again say 3-3-3.
Again, not saying zerg is more difficult as a race, only answering about why people consider the queens to be the most difficult macro mechanic, compared to chrono and mules.
I think the other guy makes a good point though. I always equated injects with chrono and mules simply because they are all from the hatcheries/nexi/CC's.
But I see now that injects are FAR more like production cycles. They're short (only 32 seconds, which is a few more in game seconds), if you miss them you will have less units, and you can't make up for "unspent" unit cycles - same as missing injects.
Unspent larvae are more like mules and chrono, because they pile up (3 limit for natural spawning larvae, 19 limit (?) for total including inject larvae) and can be spent all in one go. This has its advantages and disadvantages - con's being the short term gain of mules and chrono is really high in comparison (and they're free), but pro's being that you can remax an army swifter than any other race, or totally resaturating multiple bases (both obviously requiring the appropriate resources, but this is normal in late game) after losing lots of harvesters. You also have the ability to macro really, really hard with appropriate scouting of the opponent and gain a huge economic lead (see Nestea/Losira vs P).
So in the end, zerg complaining about the inject mechanic would be equal to a terran complaining about having to keep up with the barracks/starport/factory production cycles, or a protoss complaining about missing their warp gate/stargate/robo cycles. Yes, due to a design flaw, you have to look at a hatchery rather than just having them all hotkeyed and being able to monitor what stage of the cycle they are at like a protoss or terran can (unless you hotkey one hatchery), but now that I think of it, zerg has less (different) production buildings to keybind than the other two races so being able to keybind a "watcher" hatchery instead of a factory/robo or stargate/starport should be no problem.
And anyway, being able to remax/redrone so quickly is damn cool.
My reason why I consider toss to be more on the easy side actually comes from a toss player out of the 'why is toss so unsuccessful lately' thread. There the toss player complained:
"If I miss 2 medivacs coming in and my warpgates are on cooldown, I cannot bring my army back before they inflict massive damage."
As a terran player I have to point out, that if I miss 2 medivacs and they unload in my base, I don't have a warp-in to clean up or buy time. Then shit dies and I lose reinforcements that trickle out of my production facilities on top of whatever tech/eco damage the drop does.
Also really long drawn out games against toss are just frustrating. 20+ warpgates mean that even if you win a battle, you cannot capitalize. No matter what you try to do, there will be a gaggle of chargelots greeting you together with the 1 full mana HT who had the drop watch at whatever base I attack. As a Zerg you are fucked if they are in your base and take out your tech. As a terran you are fucked if they are on top of your production facilities with just a small contingent, because you cannot rally forces at some place. As toss you just warp in at a staging point and clear your base after 1 or 2 production cycles.
Plus toss key units are easy to use (I'm looking at you, colossus), which means most of the time micro is limited to 1 unit type (High Templar) and at least in the PvT matchup the protoss is the one dictating the composition of the terran past the mid game as the addition of vikings/ghost/medivacs is dependent on the tech the toss goes and the amount of zealots forces me to adjust the marine/marauder ratio.
Many Pro player have stated that Protoss is the "Easier" race to play. These players being among EGIncontrol, LiquidTyler, EGIdra ( ) and many others. Protoss is considered easier because the macro is simpler then other races. Also it is possible to get away with more mistakes. Also the reason people consider them to be a "1A" race is because protoss units are naturally stronger, by their nature. These are simply things I have noticed in the SC2 community.
On August 11 2011 15:33 Thrombozyt wrote: My reason why I consider toss to be more on the easy side actually comes from a toss player out of the 'why is toss so unsuccessful lately' thread. There the toss player complained:
"If I miss 2 medivacs coming in and my warpgates are on cooldown, I cannot bring my army back before they inflict massive damage."
As a terran player I have to point out, that if I miss 2 medivacs and they unload in my base, I don't have a warp-in to clean up or buy time. Then shit dies and I lose reinforcements that trickle out of my production facilities on top of whatever tech/eco damage the drop does.
Also really long drawn out games against toss are just frustrating. 20+ warpgates mean that even if you win a battle, you cannot capitalize. No matter what you try to do, there will be a gaggle of chargelots greeting you together with the 1 full mana HT who had the drop watch at whatever base I attack. As a Zerg you are fucked if they are in your base and take out your tech. As a terran you are fucked if they are on top of your production facilities with just a small contingent, because you cannot rally forces at some place. As toss you just warp in at a staging point and clear your base after 1 or 2 production cycles.
Plus toss key units are easy to use (I'm looking at you, colossus), which means most of the time micro is limited to 1 unit type (High Templar) and at least in the PvT matchup the protoss is the one dictating the composition of the terran past the mid game as the addition of vikings/ghost/medivacs is dependent on the tech the toss goes and the amount of zealots forces me to adjust the marine/marauder ratio.
I have a question that I wanna know what you think about, what about spreading out production facilities? o wo A terran that spread out their production facilities, instead of having them all in their main, would be able to rally to a staging point as well.
And, just to point out, anybody is fucked if someone is in their base taking out their tech, I don't think Zerg get to reserve that complaint. XD
On August 11 2011 14:11 TheRabidDeer wrote: [quote] So, how do you suggest a protoss deal with ling/bling/ultra/infestor? The only reason infestors are even needed is so you dont get kited, its not reliant on their damage.
Anyway, you are clearly better than everybody and you know all... so maybe we should all just bow to your superior knowledge and ability... even though you dont even say anything of merit.
storms for banelings feedback for infestors (no need to land many) archons for ultras
watch huk vs destiny on shakuras. Destiny maxes on the army you stated with only 40 drones and loses to a smaller supply Protoss army.
Sure is "unbeatable". And no I'm not complaining about imbalance, but saying this composition is unbeatable is just goddamn retarded.
Do you have a link to this game? Because I find it hard to believe it would lose, even with the composition you talk about. I imagine since it is a destiny game he probably had way too many infestors and not enough banelings/lings.
EDIT: Also, what are your qualifications? I wouldnt mind seeing your bnet profile, since you bash on diamonds pretty hard.
Banelings are missing but are instead replaced by multiple brood lords. Which in this scenario is better because banelings are for the low tier gateway units which HuK doesn't use to win. I also know the worker counts and such because it's was streamed on IPL and showed the unit counts.
As for my profile, let's not make this an epenis pissing contest
So it is that game. That is nothing like the composition that I am talking about. Destiny's zerg is very heavy on harass and late game and very little about brute force. He gets a lot of infestors to delay, deal bits of damage, do hit and runs and other things. He doesnt get them as a pure damage source in most cases. Also, the time in which he gets brood lords is just too late, by the time he reaches just an expansion of HuK, he already has a chunk of VR's out in addition to him attacking at the worst possible angle with the dragoon v2 (ultralisk), 90% of his ground army isnt even engaging HuK.
I am telling you, without a doubt, if you just TRY it, ling/bling/ultralisk raaaaaaapppppeeeeeesssssss protoss. Like 5-6 ultras, like 70 cracklings and 50 banelings. Attack move in and you will pretty much win (assuming no tiny choke, engage in the open as much as you can). If you are worried about them microing away too much, throw in 2 infestors and fungal when you engage.
As for your profile, how can you call out wrecking diamond protoss constantly with burrow roaches and then not defend your statement with a simple profile link? You attack me for being in diamond, but are not able to defend your statement?
I stopped reading after I realized you didn't watch the game.
I watched from about 15 minutes on, I found that specific game before I asked you to link it and watched it, but thought that couldnt possibly be the game you were talking about considering IT ISNT EVEN THE COMPOSITION I AM TALKING ABOUT.
Basically, youre an idiot.
Pop quiz:
What is the outcome of this fight? How many of what unit does either side have afterwards (zerg is also 2-3, and protoss lays down 2 pretty good storms))?
Your composition is Ultralisk/Baneling/Infestor/Zergling Destiny's compisition is Ultralisk/Infestor/Zergling/Brood Lord
Now the point of banelings is to deliver splash damage to Zealots, Stalkers, and other non-heavy units.
HuK had very little of this and instead had more Archons which banelings do not do well against whatsoever, instead Destiny had Brood Lords which are a much better replacement against HuK's composition. Do you see what I am getting at or should I close teamliquid right now and leave forever because of how retarded most posters are?
Now let's look at your image. The Protoss has 2 High Templars meaning those banelings are going to live and kill the entire stalker/zealot army.
Then there's a fact he doesn't nearly have enough ultra/baneling hardcounter units to withstand the attacks from the Ultralisks if they are supported.
More archons more immortals more high templars
Actually, the point in which I am referencing (when the broodlords first pop out) HuK has no archons at all.
Also, I already address Destiny's composition and goal with his composition. It is a harass based poke and prod style. It isnt a brute force attack that tries to overwhelm the opponent. He ALWAYS gets 20+ infestors. And while infestors are good, and can deal huge amounts of damage... it isnt frontloaded damage in most cases. You have to engage THEN throw IT's out which means they come after a lot of your army is dead, which means you cant do anything after the fight. What MY composition does is it frontloads ALL of the damage, then you still have the heavy duty expensive long build time units in the end and reinforce with a lot more cheap and quick building ling/baneling. This means you rebuild extremely quickly and can punish afterwards.
Going back to HuK vs Destiny though, you are wrong about the archons entirely. He doesnt get archons until pretty near 31 minutes into that video. Up until that point it is the exact composition that ling/bling/ultra (+infestor) destroys.
How hard is it to understand basic logic?
destiny attacks with brood lords, ultras, infestors, zerglings against huk's army which at the time does not have enough archons.
Destiny wins the battle and still has most of his army.
HuK makes a new army composed of mostly Archons, and wins. Destiny's composition of Brood Lords and more Infestors instead of Banelings is better against Archon builds for obvious reasons.
Do you see what I'm getting at? One more retarded post and I'm just closing TL
His composition is better, but loses (which points to an impossible to win scenario?). You also say for obvious reasons. Believe it or not, banelings dont do horribly bad against archons. Banelings will cost a chunk more minerals, but a LOT less vespene gas (which in the late game situation like that is pretty valuable, but doesnt apply here because destiny spends his gas on everything else) and will beat archons handily if looking at a pure food standpoint.
ling/baneling/ultra beats any realistic (ie: no 140 food archon armies) ground composition of equal food in ZvP, assuming no narrow choke point (and throw in 2-3 infestors if you want to negate any micro). This is my argument. Your best attempt at disproving my argument is linking me to a destiny game wherein he doesnt use banelings and uses relatively few zerlings (you know, half to 2/3 of the composition I am talking about)
140 lings/75 banelings/4 ultralisks beats 17 archons, 40 chargelots and you still have 3 ultras in the end, and the protoss used 5100 gas vs 2650 for the zerg.
As a terran player I have to point out, that if I miss 2 medivacs and they unload in my base, I don't have a warp-in to clean up or buy time. Then shit dies and I lose reinforcements that trickle out of my production facilities on top of whatever tech/eco damage the drop does.
Go mech, build turret lines tvt, drops never cross your mind again.
On August 11 2011 15:33 Thrombozyt wrote: My reason why I consider toss to be more on the easy side actually comes from a toss player out of the 'why is toss so unsuccessful lately' thread. There the toss player complained:
"If I miss 2 medivacs coming in and my warpgates are on cooldown, I cannot bring my army back before they inflict massive damage."
As a terran player I have to point out, that if I miss 2 medivacs and they unload in my base, I don't have a warp-in to clean up or buy time. Then shit dies and I lose reinforcements that trickle out of my production facilities on top of whatever tech/eco damage the drop does.
Also really long drawn out games against toss are just frustrating. 20+ warpgates mean that even if you win a battle, you cannot capitalize. No matter what you try to do, there will be a gaggle of chargelots greeting you together with the 1 full mana HT who had the drop watch at whatever base I attack. As a Zerg you are fucked if they are in your base and take out your tech. As a terran you are fucked if they are on top of your production facilities with just a small contingent, because you cannot rally forces at some place. As toss you just warp in at a staging point and clear your base after 1 or 2 production cycles.
Plus toss key units are easy to use (I'm looking at you, colossus), which means most of the time micro is limited to 1 unit type (High Templar) and at least in the PvT matchup the protoss is the one dictating the composition of the terran past the mid game as the addition of vikings/ghost/medivacs is dependent on the tech the toss goes and the amount of zealots forces me to adjust the marine/marauder ratio.
I have a question that I wanna know what you think about, what about spreading out production facilities? o wo A terran that spread out their production facilities, instead of having them all in their main, would be able to rally to a staging point as well.
And, just to point out, anybody is fucked if someone is in their base taking out their tech, I don't think Zerg get to reserve that complaint. XD
Because spreading out production facilities when each production facility only makes one at a time makes your production vulnerable to being split or destroyed easily. Terran buildings take up a lot of space with their tech labs, reactors and barracks, they have to build quite a bit out of base in the mid->late game even with good sim city. Plus due to the fact that units are rallied out of barracks instead of warped in, they have to be placed properly so that units wont get trapped (unlike warpgates, which u can put anywhere you like).
On August 11 2011 15:08 ETisME wrote: Not really, you don't want to look at your base so often as a zerg (I would imagine it is the same with other races), you don't want to spent time to look at your base, you want to make sure you are being active with your units, looking at the mini map and trying to get more vision.
"I have 3 hatcheries and want to inject 3 times. space-4-x-[clickhatch] space-4-x-[clickhatch] space-4-x-[clickhatch] " That is only true if the hatch injection time is perfectly lined up. Which it won't be after you get your third hatchery.
"In a situation where you cannot leave your screen and want to check Larva timings, wouldn't "6-[click hatch wireframe] 6-[click hatch wireframe] 6-[click hatch wireframe]" work for checking three bases quickly without moving away from the screen? " No, because if I am not able to leave my screen, then obviously I don't have the time to click on each my hatch to check my injection because I am too busy doing something else, which is most often engaging a huge army and trying to find an opening. Which is why as I have said, it isn't as simple as cycling hotkeys to check production.
Practise won't let you inject while microing a big engagement, you just won't be able to do so unless your army composition is way better and your army is quite a-move based. Which means in every game, there is a situation when you will have to choose between losing your entire army in an uneven battle for a "higher amount of reinforcement" or winning the battle evenly and having a lesser reinforcement.
Excuse me? I want to be looking EVERYWHERE, ALL the time. I can't, sadly, so I compensate by looking a lot of places quickly and gathering all the information as quickly as possible. You can definitely jump through your hatcheries while being active with your units, watching your minimap, and doing other stuff.
Yeah, that's kind of why I stuck to 3 bases...past that stuff gets weird. For all races, though...though arguably Protoss might have it easiest with the choices because they only have one choice for their Nexus energy.
Er...if you want to cycle through hotkeys to check larva timer, you can. It's an option to hotkey your Hatcheries to individual hotkeys if clicking wire-frames isn't comfortable.
Practice practice practice. Speed and consistency comes with practice. There are players who can inject while microing in an engagement, it comes with practice.
Like I said, microing in an engagement won't allow you to inject unless you are confident that your army is way stronger, not to mention dealing with an extra drop in base or something like that. Even NesTea won't be able to keep the queen's energy to lower than 30 in a 25 mins game. (it is either he has already injected before the battle or after the battle)
Let's think how terran can macro: hotkey production facilities, press unit hotkeys protoss: hotkey production facility: press unit hotey. Or hotkey proxy pylon, warp units Zerg: hotkey hatch, press units. (then if using your method, cycle through bases for injections)
I think it is quite clear how much more works it takes zerg to maintain the highest production capability that it should be able to do
The problem is that if you miss one or a few, it is a lot more punishing than missing the mule or boost. I mean it is so much more important for zerg to keep up with their macro or they fall behind in both unit and worker production, but terran can miss lots of mules and protoss can miss lots of boost while being ok because they can multi-boost/mule it to get the benefit. (check how much energy Alicia always have in his nexus)
Chronoboost is probably the easiest to manage macro mechanic because it is very intuitive and obvious when and where you need to use it for most situations and builds and if not intuitive can be easily understood when learned. Terran need to dictate whether or not they need/want to scan or to use a mule (ofc they want to use a mule as much as they can but not always) and it requires a decent amount of multitasking similar to the larvae inject but of course more forgiving. The larvae inject for Zerg requires the most multitasking of the three and it is the most unforgiving. Also, to really benefit from larvae injects one needs to properly manage their larvae (be sure not to get supply blocked and whether or not to build units or drones) and in order to properly manage larvae requires yet another needed skill which is economy management.
On August 11 2011 14:27 figq wrote:Two quick points: 1. Zerg has more bases -> more times must perform the macro mechanic. 2. Zerg can't "multi-inject" to catch up with missed injects, while terrans easily multi-mule, and protoss to a great extent can make use of multi-chrono. I'm not saying Zerg is more difficult in general, only answering your specific question about the queens.
1. Mehhh, debateable. I thought I explained that well enough with my original post. D:
I understood your original post, not need to repeat it. The point is: Terran and Protoss don't need to worry about spending their mule and chrono on time, which allows them to battle more easily. They can spend it later, without losing it. The unspent inject can't be "multi-spent" to catch up. And the zerg must have more bases to be equal. Don't know why after reading this, you again say 3-3-3.
Again, not saying zerg is more difficult as a race, only answering about why people consider the queens to be the most difficult macro mechanic, compared to chrono and mules.
Nonononononononononononononononononono. XD I completely understand the multi-spend, especially since you keep making me think about it, and ~it's lame for Zerg~. But the execution of these macro mechanics are pretty much equal for each race. Which was what my original post was really about. It was a very shallow anaylsis, I admit, but it was also meant to be very shallow...it was assuming a perfect player, honestly. :/
In this sense, I agree with you, yes. The click-execution is pretty much the same, it's about the timings. And because you also responded to the larvae "challenge" (hehe), I agree that it's almost certainly not optimal yet, even in the play of such near genius-level players as Nestea and Ret. It's quite possibly...: (future zerg nerfs incoming once it gets even more optimized, imo) edit: Let me clarify that I meant larvae-spending in this post, not larvae-injecting, of course.
Let's think how terran can macro: hotkey production facilities, press unit hotkeys protoss: hotkey production facility: press unit hotey. Or hotkey proxy pylon, warp units Zerg: hotkey hatch, press units. (then if using your method, cycle through bases for injections)
I think it is quite clear how much more works it takes zerg to maintain the highest production capability that it should be able to do
You've never played protoss before, or if you have, you're trolling. It's extremely important for protoss to gain positional advantages to create winnable engagements, all of which requires immense focus. All it takes in PvZ is less than a second of your attention else where to find out you've been massively outflanked, or that zerg units streamed in too close for FF's to even matter. PvT punishes both protoss and terran heavily if they aren't both aware of each other's positions and the enemy gets perfect casts off. You have to macro during all of these tense situations and still keep focus to, or else suddenly lose everything.
And then you get to make units off other production buildings (robo/stargate), keep up supply (something zerg doesn't have to look at their base to do), warp off 8-20+ gateways off screen from the fight, shift box+re-hotkey them and chronoboost warp gates. Some pros won't even macro while moving for position or fighting because hitting engagements correctly is so important as protoss at ultra high levels.
On August 11 2011 15:08 ETisME wrote: Not really, you don't want to look at your base so often as a zerg (I would imagine it is the same with other races), you don't want to spent time to look at your base, you want to make sure you are being active with your units, looking at the mini map and trying to get more vision.
"I have 3 hatcheries and want to inject 3 times. space-4-x-[clickhatch] space-4-x-[clickhatch] space-4-x-[clickhatch] " That is only true if the hatch injection time is perfectly lined up. Which it won't be after you get your third hatchery.
"In a situation where you cannot leave your screen and want to check Larva timings, wouldn't "6-[click hatch wireframe] 6-[click hatch wireframe] 6-[click hatch wireframe]" work for checking three bases quickly without moving away from the screen? " No, because if I am not able to leave my screen, then obviously I don't have the time to click on each my hatch to check my injection because I am too busy doing something else, which is most often engaging a huge army and trying to find an opening. Which is why as I have said, it isn't as simple as cycling hotkeys to check production.
Practise won't let you inject while microing a big engagement, you just won't be able to do so unless your army composition is way better and your army is quite a-move based. Which means in every game, there is a situation when you will have to choose between losing your entire army in an uneven battle for a "higher amount of reinforcement" or winning the battle evenly and having a lesser reinforcement.
Excuse me? I want to be looking EVERYWHERE, ALL the time. I can't, sadly, so I compensate by looking a lot of places quickly and gathering all the information as quickly as possible. You can definitely jump through your hatcheries while being active with your units, watching your minimap, and doing other stuff.
Yeah, that's kind of why I stuck to 3 bases...past that stuff gets weird. For all races, though...though arguably Protoss might have it easiest with the choices because they only have one choice for their Nexus energy.
Er...if you want to cycle through hotkeys to check larva timer, you can. It's an option to hotkey your Hatcheries to individual hotkeys if clicking wire-frames isn't comfortable.
Practice practice practice. Speed and consistency comes with practice. There are players who can inject while microing in an engagement, it comes with practice.
Like I said, microing in an engagement won't allow you to inject unless you are confident that your army is way stronger, not to mention dealing with an extra drop in base or something like that. Even NesTea won't be able to keep the queen's energy to lower than 30 in a 25 mins game. (it is either he has already injected before the battle or after the battle)
Let's think how terran can macro: hotkey production facilities, press unit hotkeys protoss: hotkey production facility: press unit hotey. Or hotkey proxy pylon, warp units Zerg: hotkey hatch, press units. (then if using your method, cycle through bases for injections)
I think it is quite clear how much more works it takes zerg to maintain the highest production capability that it should be able to do
The problem is that if you miss one or a few, it is a lot more punishing than missing the mule or boost. I mean it is so much more important for zerg to keep up with their macro or they fall behind in both unit and worker production, but terran can miss lots of mules and protoss can miss lots of boost while being ok because they can multi-boost/mule it to get the benefit. (check how much energy Alicia always have in his nexus)
I've made this argument before elsewhere and I'll make a small version here. Hitting that larva inject for zerg is more similar to hitting a production cycle for terran and a warp in for protoss. You can't miss any one of the 3. Argument 1: "But you can que units as terran"
Queuing units is a part of having bad macro. If you can que two tanks, that means you basically have 450/375 unspent minerals and gas. At low master as terran you actually can't get by having any unspent minerals or gas above 300/300 at the 15 minute mark. (And no that's not two tanks in que because you have more than one production facility)
Argument 2: "But you have to look at your base as zerg to hit the larva inject"
Terran players have to build supply depots.
You have to look at your base to hit a mule too. I know you want to tell me that you can hold extra energy but that's really not viable until pretty late into the game. I would say past the 25 minute mark. Correct me if I'm wrong, but zerg can also float larva at that point in the game. Ultralisks and broodlords cost a lot of supply and money but not a lot of larva. Same thing for mutalisks. Having extra energy on your queens at that point in the game is not a way to have less units.
But also, I guess marines take much more babysitting than things like zerglings, banelings, broodlords... It's much more difficult to look away from a terran army.
I'm not saying terran is the hardest race to play, I just don't think zerg macro mechanics make zerg more difficult to play than other races. I think having good macro will benefit a zerg player the most, because of the way zerg benefits from having a lot of units. But I don't think zerg is that much more difficult to learn than terran or zerg.
Now when I say this, I'm not talking about becoming a diamond level zerg and a diamond level terran or protoss. I think there are some jumps that are easier to make as certain races. I think it's most difficult to get to high diamond as zerg, because of the necessity of learning intensive map awareness and learning to stop cheese while not putting your economy in the dump. But once you get to that point, I don't think learning to improve any further is any more difficult as zerg as it is for terran. Lol. I'm kind of questioning protoss in this area... I personally feel like the Protoss learning curve levels out at mid to high master, but I wouldn't know for sure.
On August 11 2011 14:27 figq wrote:Two quick points: 1. Zerg has more bases -> more times must perform the macro mechanic. 2. Zerg can't "multi-inject" to catch up with missed injects, while terrans easily multi-mule, and protoss to a great extent can make use of multi-chrono. I'm not saying Zerg is more difficult in general, only answering your specific question about the queens.
1. Mehhh, debateable. I thought I explained that well enough with my original post. D:
I understood your original post, not need to repeat it. The point is: Terran and Protoss don't need to worry about spending their mule and chrono on time, which allows them to battle more easily. They can spend it later, without losing it. The unspent inject can't be "multi-spent" to catch up. And the zerg must have more bases to be equal. Don't know why after reading this, you again say 3-3-3.
Again, not saying zerg is more difficult as a race, only answering about why people consider the queens to be the most difficult macro mechanic, compared to chrono and mules.
Nonononononononononononononononononono. XD I completely understand the multi-spend, especially since you keep making me think about it, and ~it's lame for Zerg~. But the execution of these macro mechanics are pretty much equal for each race. Which was what my original post was really about. It was a very shallow anaylsis, I admit, but it was also meant to be very shallow...it was assuming a perfect player, honestly. :/
In this sense, I agree with you, yes. The click-execution is pretty much the same, it's about the timings. And because you also responded to the larvae "challenge" (hehe), I agree that it's almost certainly not optimal yet, even in the play of such near genius-level players as Nestea and Ret. It's quite possibly... (future zerg nerfs incoming once it gets even more optimized, imo)
Timings are to be practiced...and practiced...and practiced. Do you see near genius-level play in Nestea and Ret? I see sloppy play and mistakes...ALL the time, it's saddening that they can get away with it sometimes. They're good, but they can be better, I hope!
You think so? I think HoTS and whatever the third expansion might change the game too much for such a bold statement yet...
On August 11 2011 15:56 UniversalMind wrote: wow you guys are still going at it? what a shit storm lol, gotta love these imba threads
The last few pages have actually been pretty good. :D Some interesting discussion with polite debate, hardly a "shit storm", lol. Nice contribution to the thread, though. <3 i apologize for my sarcasm, sometimes I cannot help it. D;
I know I'm late to the party, but as a protoss player, I'd say that toss is easiest macro wise and hardest micro wise. I feel like they require more micro and ability usage to survive than the other races do, at least when it comes to deathball vs deathball fights. Their macro is pretty easy though... wzzzsssss etc.
MY RACE IS LEAST POWERFUL, BUT I STILL WIN MORE GAMES BECAUSE I AM JUST THAT GOOD. ALSO, MY RACE HAS HARDER MECHANICS THAN OTHERS AND REQUIRE MORE STRATEGIC THINKING IN MY GAMEPLAY!
WHEN EVER RACE X DOES STRATEGY Y, MY RACE CANT DEFEND IT. BUT DUE TO HOW MY RACE REQUIRES MACRO AND MICRO, I CAN STILL WIN!
So its not so much that Protoss is super easy, its just that Zerg is hard because of the larvae mechanic.
I do think Protoss is a little bit easier than Terran because their macro is slightly more forgiving. Terran can be a little tricky because you must constantly be producing out of all your structures all the time. If you slip up, you're screwed. Of course constant production is important for Protoss too. But if Protoss misses something they can always chronoboost it to catch up. The only thing Terrans get a free pass on is supply blocks with the calldown depot.
And for new players with really low apm, its really nice needing only one worker to build all your buildings. And proxy pylons are great because you don't need to worry about rally points like Terran and Zerg do.
Protoss also has the best static defense. Forcefields and Cannons. Low level players often rely on static defenses to cover for their bad macro. Zerg's are average, sunkens and spores are great but they're not all-inclusive like cannons. Terran's static defense is awful, there's bunkers but they're pointless unless you have army to fill them. Turrets and PFs are too limited and expensive in their roles.
Another thing that is really helpful to new players is that Protoss has the most powerful 200/200 army. So even if your micro sucks, if you can max out you'll probably win anyway. Yes Zerg is the most 1A race, but if you 1A a 200/200 Zerg army against a 200/200 Protoss army, the Protoss is gonna win.
Zerg's strengths are in its strong macro, flexibility, vision, and speed...not army strength. That requires a bit more skill to exploit compared to Protoss strengths. (which are strong units, tech, and instantaneous reinforcement via warpgate)
Another thing that is really helpful to new players is that Protoss has the most powerful 200/200 army. So even if your micro sucks, if you can max out you'll probably win anyway. Yes Zerg is the most 1A race, but if you 1A a 200/200 Zerg army against a 200/200 Protoss army, the Protoss is gonna win.
yeah no shit, considering toss' 200/200 army is actually worth 2-3x more resources than the zerg/terran's 200/200 army of mainly marines and zerglings
On August 11 2011 14:27 figq wrote:Two quick points: 1. Zerg has more bases -> more times must perform the macro mechanic. 2. Zerg can't "multi-inject" to catch up with missed injects, while terrans easily multi-mule, and protoss to a great extent can make use of multi-chrono. I'm not saying Zerg is more difficult in general, only answering your specific question about the queens.
1. Mehhh, debateable. I thought I explained that well enough with my original post. D:
I understood your original post, not need to repeat it. The point is: Terran and Protoss don't need to worry about spending their mule and chrono on time, which allows them to battle more easily. They can spend it later, without losing it. The unspent inject can't be "multi-spent" to catch up. And the zerg must have more bases to be equal. Don't know why after reading this, you again say 3-3-3.
Again, not saying zerg is more difficult as a race, only answering about why people consider the queens to be the most difficult macro mechanic, compared to chrono and mules.
Nonononononononononononononononononono. XD I completely understand the multi-spend, especially since you keep making me think about it, and ~it's lame for Zerg~. But the execution of these macro mechanics are pretty much equal for each race. Which was what my original post was really about. It was a very shallow anaylsis, I admit, but it was also meant to be very shallow...it was assuming a perfect player, honestly. :/
In this sense, I agree with you, yes. The click-execution is pretty much the same, it's about the timings. And because you also responded to the larvae "challenge" (hehe), I agree that it's almost certainly not optimal yet, even in the play of such near genius-level players as Nestea and Ret. It's quite possibly... (future zerg nerfs incoming once it gets even more optimized, imo)
Timings are to be practiced...and practiced...and practiced. Do you see near genius-level play in Nestea and Ret? I see sloppy play and mistakes...ALL the time, it's saddening that they can get away with it sometimes. They're good, but they can be better, I hope!
You think so? I think HoTS and whatever the third expansion might change the game too much for such a bold statement yet...
After the 3rd expansion, builds may settle, but still the optimization of larvae spending (not injecting) is going to remain a challenge, imo, yes.
But to get back on topic - the same applies pretty much to chrono boost too, at the highest level. Full gameplan, optimizing the usage of chrono, isn't easy at all to develop.
I haven't read all 37 pages, so i apologize if that has already been said:
I think Protoss is considered the easiest race because they have a ton of openings that can outright kill your opponent if he makes a single mistake. Players are more and more adapting to the strategies, but there are still some that can catch you off guard: - 4gate - 6/7/8gate - (proxy) voidray rush - (proxy) DT rush - cannon rush - proxy 2gate
Zerg: - 6/7/8 pool - 10/11 pool - 7rr - baneling bust
Since a lot of people on the ladder abuse some of the protoss cheese openings, people hate to play against them and in turn call them easy because they didn't scout enough or weren't prepared.
its a joke that this thread is even made,most people leaving comments are plat/diamond leaguers who have no idea what it takes to be a solid protoss player,and to think that zergs say zerg is harder because of larva mechanic?wtf go back to your bronze league any1 with any semi decent mechanics can do that,look at BW you had to go to every expo and select individual workers and send them to mine everytime a worker has was made....but anyway thats not my point,my point is that its very easy to make a race sound easy
zerg ->get 3 base of drones,amove your roaches when they die hold down 4srrrrrrrrrrrr get brand new army and amove again
Terran -> trow down a few mules,make merauder ,press T and amove
im not saying this is how easy those races are but the way people talk about protoss is in the same context as what im saying.
if protoss was the easiest race then players would find it easier to get to the top with protoss and therefore there would be a higher representation of protoss at the top of ladder and gsl but there is not,and if you are talking about easier at lower leagues then dont worry about what is easier and worry about getting better cause in those leagues it really doesnt matter at all
The only easy thing about Protoss is mass warpgates in late game. They let you reinforce massive amounts of units in just 5 seconds, wherever you want. T and Z have to wait for build time+travel time. I think this aspect of warpin mechanic favours Protoss in late game. Besides that, no I don't think P is particularly easier than others.
[B]Simple numbers reveal that Protoss investments are heavier in cost at any given point in time compared to the other two races making toss tech choices more unforgiving.
this is not necessarily true in tvp, usually it's even, and if toss goes some heavy gateway style play such as 6 gate or zealot archon lategame composition, they usually spend much less on tech than terran.
On August 11 2011 16:57 Morfildur wrote: I haven't read all 37 pages, so i apologize if that has already been said:
I think Protoss is considered the easiest race because they have a ton of openings that can outright kill your opponent if he makes a single mistake. Players are more and more adapting to the strategies, but there are still some that can catch you off guard: - 4gate - 6/7/8gate - (proxy) voidray rush - (proxy) DT rush - cannon rush - proxy 2gate
Zerg: - 6/7/8 pool - 10/11 pool - 7rr - baneling bust
Since a lot of people on the ladder abuse some of the protoss cheese openings, people hate to play against them and in turn call them easy because they didn't scout enough or weren't prepared.
What about 1/1/1, 2 port banshee, pulling scv off every single build out there etc
Zerg what about all these 2 base timing design to kill or you fall behind massively, hydra timing etc.
6 gates is as viable as half of the build you did not include in that list.
On August 11 2011 16:57 Morfildur wrote: I haven't read all 37 pages, so i apologize if that has already been said:
I think Protoss is considered the easiest race because they have a ton of openings that can outright kill your opponent if he makes a single mistake. Players are more and more adapting to the strategies, but there are still some that can catch you off guard: - 4gate - 6/7/8gate - (proxy) voidray rush - (proxy) DT rush - cannon rush - proxy 2gate
Zerg: - 6/7/8 pool - 10/11 pool - 7rr - baneling bust
Since a lot of people on the ladder abuse some of the protoss cheese openings, people hate to play against them and in turn call them easy because they didn't scout enough or weren't prepared.
Also blue flame hellions, also 111 allin. Terrans are by far the most versatile race.
I think everyone would agree Zerg is the hardest race but I think Terran is easier than toss. Terran has extremely forgiving detection, supply and mule mechanics. the least fragile teching path and very simple micro mechanics (stutter step, tank focus, Stim to run)
Toss, has powerful units but teching is dangerous because of how fragile the Toss early game is.
On August 11 2011 05:10 Xova wrote: Protoss macro is a bit easier, and yes I do play protoss.
I do not agree with that because if you forget to warp in a round of units after the cooldown you will lose a "round" of warpins forever;whereas terrans can queue up their unit productions and queens save up the energyfor more injects. I'm not saying that it's easier for T or Z but warping units optimally isn't easy.
On August 11 2011 05:10 Xova wrote: Protoss macro is a bit easier, and yes I do play protoss.
I do not agree with that because if you forget to warp in a round of units after the cooldown you will lose a "round" of warpins forever;whereas terrans can queue up their unit productions and queens save up the energyfor more injects. I'm not saying that it's easier for T or Z but warping units optimally isn't easy.
z can continue injects but they still missed the original time they could have been making larva since they can't stack injects, i.e. missed their round as well. Instead of having 8 larva they will have 4. Theres not really any difference there. Its true Terran can queue so they will most likely not miss any rounds, but you have to remember that they don't use warp barracks, so protoss can queue also if you don't have warp gates.
On August 11 2011 05:10 Xova wrote: Protoss macro is a bit easier, and yes I do play protoss.
I do not agree with that because if you forget to warp in a round of units after the cooldown you will lose a "round" of warpins forever;whereas terrans can queue up their unit productions and queens save up the energyfor more injects. I'm not saying that it's easier for T or Z but warping units optimally isn't easy.
I'm going to have to disagree in a lot of different ways. You can't que up units. That's bad macro. Having one tank in production and two in que means you really have 300/250 unspent minerals and gas. In just one production facility. I'll tell you for a fact that that is actually too much to have in unspent cash at low master level. If you miss a production cycle as terran, you actually have to build more production facilities to spend that money. Also, Protoss production facilities are wherever the hell you want them to be. Wherever there is a pylon there is a production facility and you're always looking at them. it's easier to remember to macro because you're literally making the units as you're using them. Also, Protoss units are just flat out more expensive than units from other races. Warpgate cooldowns are low and chronoboost can make them even lower. It's pretty easy to dump your cash into warpgates. My friend, a protoss player, told me that vs bio after he put down his forcefields he went straight back to macro and stopped microing. Your units don't have to be kited like marauders and marines do from zealots.
I think learning to macro those things isn't.... difficult for a mid master player, but I think making that jump to mid master from high diamond is more difficult for players that don't play protoss.
EDIT: also the "saving up energy for injects" thing is just silly. Think about having one hatchery and one queen. The spawn larva mechanic finishes just when you reach 25 energy again. If you have 50 energy when the spawn larva mechanic finishes, you can still only spend 25.
So.. does people realize that larvae stack up? While if you miss to warp in /build a unit that unit is forever gone? So yeah, missing an inject might be more bad than missing an chrono/mule, but missing to build your units for a while(as zerg) is not at all as severe av missing a warp in or terran equal..
i find protoss easiest, and i've been playing zerg for months now terran always seems easy when im not offracing as it, but damn that infantry takes good micro
On August 11 2011 17:37 aderum wrote: So.. does people realize that larvae stack up? While if you miss to warp in /build a unit that unit is forever gone? So yeah, missing an inject might be more bad than missing an chrono/mule, but missing to build your units for a while(as zerg) is not at all as severe av missing a warp in or terran equal..
the base larvae aint spawning, and if your late on inject thats more youve missed
Guess what. There is no easiest race. Because every person has a different style and different strengths. If you are good at certain things, and a race allows you to utilize these fortes of yours, then you will excel with it.
But regarding the argument here, I want to respond, not to prove Protoss is hardest but to point out why it is ridiculous to be saying "OMG I have to play perfect as terran/zerg and protoss just herpderps his deathball across the map and it's gg, wtf. I'm silver btw and Idra is god."
Regarding macro: Macro isn't exactly hard for any race and is certainly not the deciding factor for the difficulty of a race. It honestly isn't that different for any of the races. Unit production is probably most difficult for protoss (although not hard at all) because you actually have to go to the proxy pylon and click more to produce units rather than 2srrrrrrr or 3ddddaaaa. Regarding the macro mechanics, zerg's is probably the least forgiving (although still not difficult), followed by protoss, then terran. Zerg can stack larva but lose injects if not on time, Chrono gets wasted and doesn't stack but can be spent more quickly. Terran doesn't really lose much, just call down mules if you forgot. But still, forgetting to inject when great production capacity is your race's strength seems a bit counter-intuitive. Still, these are things that hurt you when you are playing poorly and don't matter too much.
Regarding micro: I honestly chose Protoss because I thought it was the most micro intensive. Positioning matters for all three races and is largely irrelevant. There is no notable gap in difficulty between sieging tanks, getting your zealots in front and your stalkers under your colossi, or staying out of chokes for zerg. Positioning (and flanking for that matter) is not always super easy but no race has it worse than any other. But considering I see my army get rolled if I don't split my casters up, blink my stalkers back constantly, throw down well placed storms, use force fields to fight on my terms, prevent my colossi from targeting something stupid, make archons at the right time, use phoenixes to lift tanks or infestors, and find the optimal time to drop back to my proxy pylon when I have to make reinforcements rather than doing it during battle, I don't think it's easiest. Yes, there are difficult aspects of micro with terran and zerg, I'm just pointing out why this EZ mode deathball myth that whiny Zergs created is absolute bullshit (I wish I saw more of this micro; everybody talks about marine splits like they're marineking and have to totally outplay their opponent when they either do nothing or just run past their tanks/thor. Or some burroach micro, when I saw Ret doing that so well last week I was very impressed. Still, at the high level, most players utilize all strengths derived from micro, so it's irrelevent).
Also, what do Protoss players complain the most about? What do they blame the most for their losses? EMP and Fungal. Two abilities that prevent Protoss from maximizing their chances with good micro. The loss of force fields, storms, and feedbacks from EMP and the loss of positioning, blink micro, and zealots and archons make our chances slim at best against a competent opponent.
Also, notice how many WC3 pros chose Protoss. I hardly think these players would have done this if they didn't think they could transfer their skills most with Protoss. Players with a WC3 background who chose Toss include: Naniwa, Tod, Kalin, Cruncher, ZeeRax, Elfi, Wolf, Hasu, Insolence, Grubby, Verdi, Kiwikaki, Axslav, Agh and SaSe.
Damn it, why hasn't this been closed yet. At first it was just like "Eh whatever, balance thread on TL, it'll go away" and now it's 37 pages of the battlenet forums and it's like the day after Cruncher beat Idra in TSL.
Why do people say protoss is the easiest? A number of reasons I think.
One being their macro is a bit easier than the other races (and more forgiving). Another being that their race-specific macro mechanics can be used in various situations (also forgiving).
But personally, the biggest reason? Because when SC2 first came out, I (along with most other people) had a large amount of friends pick up the game all at once. And you know what? Most of the worst players of the group picked Protoss, and they were able to hang in many matches that they should have lost.
I personally went Zerg and my group of friends widely recognized I was the best player (as well as the highest ranked of all of them), not just mechanic-wise but I knew the strategies of all races much better, and the theory behind the game better. But does that mean I always whooped their ass? Nope. Sometimes I did, but those bastards pulled off wins sometimes. And even my other friends spectating said it was bullshit. Everyone in the group admitted they got lucky and did better than they should have just because of the race.
Fighting the lower ranked Terrans? Won some, lost some, but it was always either a close match or a solid win for one of the players. The "lucky win" bullshit that happened with the toss players was extremely rare.
One of my friends we knew was the worst of the group, he played Toss, but it was a joke between us that somehow that kid always managed to pull off a win when he shouldnt have. He didnt know the counters well, always used the same strategy, never even used a number of Protoss units, hell he didnt even have a real build order. But there was a number of times that we were doing a 3v3 and 2 of us leave thinking its a for sure loss, he stays and manages to win against all 3 opponents. Alone. And being the worst of the group, he had a higher rank than a decent amount of them.
He showed that Rank does not equal Skill. If it went by skill he would have been the bottom of the barrel.
So it's just experience, more than anything, that shows Protoss are easiest to play.
Mechanically, it's their macro that's most forgiving. Less units to make, being able to make units on the field, boosting being most forgiving - that makes a strong combination.
While they do arguably require more micro than the other races, it's high risk-high reward micro. They have a lot to risk but a lot to gain from proper micro. And let's be honest, unless your playing at an extremely high level, macro is much harder to get solid than micro because you have to be macroing non stop the entire game and it's much more open to "forgetting" something or making simple mistakes that can lose the game.
Being the most "micro-intensive" race is not a bad thing, because that means you have the most to gain from good micro. There were times that I would have gave anything to be able to turn fights around with good micro but it just isnt possible with the Zerg unit mixes that are required to battle the given strategy.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying protoss is the easiest to play at a PRO level - all races take a lot of dedication at that point. I'm just saying that in my experience they were the easiest to pick up and win with as a learning player. Forgiving macro goes a long way in a game thats often decided by macro, and they did not even have to learn much of the race to do good.
Too many people on this thread seems to have had a lobotomy in a not too distant past. Ease of play has everything to do with preferred style of gaming. Personally, I'm a Terran player, I often random and have started to embrace Zerg. I find it *much* easier. I've gone two days with no loses. Hell, I'm tempted to make it my main because I find it so relaxing and simple. Is Zerg the easiest race? No, of course not. I see most people on this thread saying it's the hardest.
And another thing: Whining about the race you play? Zerg players saying larvae mechanics are hard? There's a warning to tell you when to do it, and with backspace it takes under a second. Protoss players saying their micro is the hardest? Try splitting marines or dropping several places at once. Terran players saying your macro is hard? Hotkeys. 4aaaadd5ss6dd is not too different from 7srrrrrrrhhhhhhhhh and w+shift+clickclickclick.
These threads make me sad because of how incredibly bias people are. I find Protoss mechanics *very* easy. And when I win I'm astounded and appalled with the simplicity of the race. I also, however, find the gameplay aspect (aside from one base all-ins) difficult. Marauders and most Zerg units ruin my day when my stalkers have a quota of two laser beams an hour. How can I as a player say Protoss is easy when I can't win with the race without all-ins?
Do you define difficulty on the APM and active, on the go, thinking required to win? Or rather the probability of success? That's the question you should begin with. My personal idea of the easiest race has changed countless times since I stated playing. It's painful to write 300 words and not actually whine about why everyone that plays the race I find easiest sucks shit and should die.
I thank the people that typed out a level headed answer and didn't bash on anyone. I mildly admire you.
I got frustrated over nothing.
I'm tempted to go on but it's past my beddy-bye time. Good night TL
On August 11 2011 05:10 Xova wrote: Protoss macro is a bit easier, and yes I do play protoss.
I do not agree with that because if you forget to warp in a round of units after the cooldown you will lose a "round" of warpins forever;whereas terrans can queue up their unit productions and queens save up the energyfor more injects. I'm not saying that it's easier for T or Z but warping units optimally isn't easy.
I'm going to have to disagree in a lot of different ways. You can't que up units. That's bad macro. Having one tank in production and two in que means you really have 300/250 unspent minerals and gas. In just one production facility. I'll tell you for a fact that that is actually too much to have in unspent cash at low master level. If you miss a production cycle as terran, you actually have to build more production facilities to spend that money. Also, Protoss production facilities are wherever the hell you want them to be. Wherever there is a pylon there is a production facility and you're always looking at them. it's easier to remember to macro because you're literally making the units as you're using them. Also, Protoss units are just flat out more expensive than units from other races. Warpgate cooldowns are low and chronoboost can make them even lower. It's pretty easy to dump your cash into warpgates. My friend, a protoss player, told me that vs bio after he put down his forcefields he went straight back to macro and stopped microing. Your units don't have to be kited like marauders and marines do from zealots.
I think learning to macro those things isn't.... difficult for a mid master player, but I think making that jump to mid master from high diamond is more difficult for players that don't play protoss.
EDIT: also the "saving up energy for injects" thing is just silly. Think about having one hatchery and one queen. The spawn larva mechanic finishes just when you reach 25 energy again. If you have 50 energy when the spawn larva mechanic finishes, you can still only spend 25.
Well if you move out as a terran there nothing bad about queuing like 2 or 3 units since you will be focusing on your micro. Plus I'm not that saving energy for injects is good but from this perspective it's more forgiving than warping units.
Besides, I'm not saying that any race is easy to play.
Protoss have most intuitive teching - overall most versatile and strongest high tech units, which makes late game stages very intuitive.
T dont have that much of problems with this as they dont need tech that much, though when late game hits and you eventually might need some tech its really not easy to say what and when. But Z have most problems with this, since T2 units are really good for long portion of game while something that rarely allows you to finish game with, which makes figuring good timings for teching quite hard. Also they are, by far, not that versatile.
Slightly off-topic but, have anyone noticed how many protoss threads have been popping up the last month(s)?
We zergs used to be the crybabies and whiners, it was our pride, but after the infestor change, we could suddently deal with deathballs and decided to go back to play the game, the forums were now barren from balance whine.
The threads started popping up "Protoss performance in XXX tournament", the protoss players would hide their balance whine behind "Well, atleast we're better than zerg and won't complain about it"
But that all changed, protoss is the new whining race, with threads popping up daily, and this will probably continue until protoss is buffed in some way, like letting high templars auto-cast feedback or something so they can kill ghosts or infestors without micro, protoss is now feeling the wrath of powerful caster units, and while the other races are used to units like sentries or high templars, most protoss have decided to make blizzard nerf ghost and infestors instad of getting used to them.
When protoss finally get their buff, it's terrans time to whine, protoss has been going for a while now, i wanna see something new.
On August 11 2011 18:14 Bagonad wrote: Slightly off-topic but, have anyone noticed how many protoss threads have been popping up the last month(s)?
We zergs used to be the crybabies and whiners, it was our pride, but after the infestor change, we could suddently deal with deathballs and decided to go back to play the game, the forums were now barren from balance whine.
The threads started popping up "Protoss performance in XXX tournament", the protoss players would hide their balance whine behind "Well, atleast we're better than zerg and won't complain about it"
But that all changed, protoss is the new whining race, with threads popping up daily, and this will probably continue until protoss is buffed in some way, like letting high templars auto-cast feedback or something so they can kill ghosts or infestors without micro, protoss is now feeling the wrath of powerful caster units, and while the other races are used to units like sentries or high templars, most protoss have decided to make blizzard nerf ghost and infestors instad of getting used to them.
When protoss finally get their buff, it's terrans time to whine, protoss has been going for a while now, i wanna see something new.
The problem is, as long as you have a somewhat decent win-rate, you accept being flamed every other game.
But when it becomes more and more obvious that your race struggles when the opponent knows what he is doing, insults for playing an "easy" race are really annoying. I definitely see where the OP is coming from, even on his silver level.
I mean, how would you zergs have felt if everyone had claimed that zerg would've been so super-easy to play the last year? Even while you were the least successful race? Would've sucked, no?
I'm honestly waiting for mirror Terran and Zerg threads to open up so we can see people start to rip on those races. Surely, there are people who think those races are also easy to play, or at least can find reasons to back up "Terran is easy" and "Zerg is easy" claims as well.
And just like in this thread, I'm sure a few responses would be productive, and the rest would be mind-numbingly terrible.
Protoss is easy because the people who BM me after my matches say so, regardless of all their mistakes.
People think Protoss is easier, because a lot of the time they don't really have to harass (not saying they can't, but if they don't they won't lose). They also have very simple macro mechanics, I mean the game tells you when you need to make things out of your gateways.
I do agree that Protoss has hard micro mechanics in battles, but a lot of the time that's eradicated by the fact Protoss can instantly warp in reinforcements, whereas Zerg and Terran have to wait for their army to build.
If I have left anything out, or am brutally wrong about anything please say ^^
As a mid-Master level Zerg playing off-race as Protoss I am still at a similar standard (low Masters), yet playing as Terran I am barely Diamond. This is with less than 5% of my games as Toss.
With that in mind, here is my justification as to why Protoss is an easier race to play (at least up until a very-high standard of play, at which point all races are similar): - You are not required to routinely perform a function on your specific buildings (inject) to keep up with your opponent, furthermore, if you miss a warp-in you can simply chronoboost your gateways to 'catch-up'. - You do not need to protect reinforcement paths as you can simply warp directly to where you require units (assuming that location has power). - With decent forcefields you do not have to worry as much about where you engage the enemy. (as Zerg, if I don't set up a flank and engage in relatively open spaces I generally come out in a worse position, even with a higher unit count) - The Stalker/Colossus/Void Ray composition is extremely effective in all match-ups, and has no real counter. - Harrassment in the early/mid-game requires much more effort from the opponent to stop, i.e. sending DT's to different bases requires the opponent to get detection to each point to stop it, and when cannon rushing, if the Protoss player is able to pylon-block a ramp or get decent cannon placement in the enemy's mineral line they are in an excellent position, with very little effort required.
Anyway, this is just what I've noticed and is only an opinion - feel free to call me a 'moron' or whatever.
There's a difference between how hard a race is and how strong a race is.
This is what I think :
Terran is the strongest race because it is most flexible, but the mechanics needed to perfect Terran play are much greater than what you need for Zerg and Protoss. Therefore, Terran is the strongest race but also the hardest to play.
Protoss is the easiest race because you can achieve more with lesser mechanics compared to a Zerg or Terran player of the same level of mechanics. Whether Protoss is underpowered or not, that doesn't change the fact that it isn't hard to execute the strategies.
On August 11 2011 14:27 figq wrote:Two quick points: 1. Zerg has more bases -> more times must perform the macro mechanic. 2. Zerg can't "multi-inject" to catch up with missed injects, while terrans easily multi-mule, and protoss to a great extent can make use of multi-chrono. I'm not saying Zerg is more difficult in general, only answering your specific question about the queens.
1. Mehhh, debateable. I thought I explained that well enough with my original post. D:
I understood your original post, no need to repeat it. The point is: Terran and Protoss don't need to worry about spending their mule and chrono on time, which allows them to battle more easily. They can spend it later, without losing it. The unspent inject can't be "multi-spent" to catch up. And the zerg must have more bases to be equal. Don't know why after reading this, you again say 3-3-3.
Again, not saying zerg is more difficult as a race, only answering about why people consider the queens to be the most difficult macro mechanic, compared to chrono and mules.
I think the other guy makes a good point though. I always equated injects with chrono and mules simply because they are all from the hatcheries/nexi/CC's.
But I see now that injects are FAR more like production cycles. They're short (only 32 seconds, which is a few more in game seconds), if you miss them you will have less units, and you can't make up for "unspent" unit cycles - same as missing injects.
Unspent larvae are more like mules and chrono, because they pile up (3 limit for natural spawning larvae, 19 limit (?) for total including inject larvae) and can be spent all in one go. This has its advantages and disadvantages - con's being the short term gain of mules and chrono is really high in comparison (and they're free), but pro's being that you can remax an army swifter than any other race, or totally resaturating multiple bases (both obviously requiring the appropriate resources, but this is normal in late game) after losing lots of harvesters. You also have the ability to macro really, really hard with appropriate scouting of the opponent and gain a huge economic lead (see Nestea/Losira vs P).
So in the end, zerg complaining about the inject mechanic would be equal to a terran complaining about having to keep up with the barracks/starport/factory production cycles, or a protoss complaining about missing their warp gate/stargate/robo cycles. Yes, due to a design flaw, you have to look at a hatchery rather than just having them all hotkeyed and being able to monitor what stage of the cycle they are at like a protoss or terran can (unless you hotkey one hatchery), but now that I think of it, zerg has less (different) production buildings to keybind than the other two races so being able to keybind a "watcher" hatchery instead of a factory/robo or stargate/starport should be no problem.
And anyway, being able to remax/redrone so quickly is damn cool.
Good post, agreed with this perspective. And as mentioned before, I don't consider zerg difficult in general, it's quite easy to play, especially semi-well. While, at the highest level, every race is difficult to master, in a different way.
To add to your comparison - there is actually a good "vision" balance here too (Blizzard considers vision as resource in RTS) - you have to switch vision to click the action for mule, for chrono, and for inject.
While I do think this is a bad idea for a thread (it can't end well) I'll just contribute to its slow death by saying that Protoss is the easiest race to get into a league like diamond and maybe even masters. I'd go so far as to say that most diamond or master Zerg/Terran players could offrace as P and do nearly as well as they do with their main race due to the simplicity of playing P at that level. It's just not as difficult. However I will say at yet higher levels of play, the mechanics required to do well as Protoss are just as difficult as T and Z.
There is far too much anecdotal evidence in this thread. Saying that 'I switch races to Protoss all the time and play flawlessly' is not an argument for Protoss being easier. All three races have to keep up with production cycles - warp-ins for Protoss, barracks/factory/starport production for Terran and injects for Zerg. Claiming that any of the three macro mechanics is objectively easier is utterly retarded.
How much skill you need to win with a race depends on the level of play. At very low levels of play Protoss is the easiest for sure. Once players start learning basic micro terran may be considered the easiest. At a higher level where players have a good understanding of the game, zerg may be considered the easiest.
In the end, all races take a considerable amount (and different types) of skill and practice to play well. So many of the arguments in this thread are terrible and most likely from players who don't actually have a good understanding of the game or are venting.
I saw a pic somewhere that explained this pretty well
In all seriousness, I think that Toss got the reputation as the easiest race because it probably is at lower levels. Not using chrono boost is not as bad as not using larvae inject or mules. Not using force fields correctly is undeniably bad, but if you're opponents just A-move and do not micro, it's ok.
...but after you get to a certain level, this logic starts failing miserably. There is no such thing as an "easier" race in my opinion, and all who say it probably say so because they only play one race and don't have much to compare their own racial experience with.
lol toss easy....good one.... you no how micro intensive Terran is guys? especially if its a TvT.... judt wastch TLO vs BratOk...lol 300+ the whole game just to keep up and TLO still lost... toss easy lolz... cant 1A with HT in your army....
On August 11 2011 20:12 ki11z0ne wrote: lol toss easy....good one.... you no how micro intensive Terran is guys? especially if its a TvT.... judt wastch TLO vs BratOk...lol 300+ the whole game just to keep up and TLO still lost... toss easy lolz... cant 1A with HT in your army....
Well I would consider P as the easiest race to get fast results. Timing attacks with Toss are very easy to do, you just do a build by recipe and if the enemy didnt react accordingly he lost (which will happen very often in leagues until diamond even on high level but not that often). And in the worst case u can turtle up on 2 bases to 200/200 and overwhelm ure enemy.
This does only refer to lower level, where the reactions of the enemy isnt as appropriate. But this makes it easier to play Protoss until u reach a certain level
Macro is easier, we all agree. But Micro, how can it be harder? Toss generaly has more dmg and more hp. Zealot beats Marauders unmicroed. Colosus range, dont even need to do anything. Siegetanks has to be in siegemode before they get longer range. Zerg is probably even or harder then Terran, but Toss is esier. But still, in prolvl this is even out more. If one can micro and macro like a god, terran and zerg is better.
It may be because the warp in mechanic 'looks' imba and easy, as units are warped in automatically and every noob says "wow you get units instantly so easy!"
But in reality they are virtually all equally hard to master
On August 11 2011 20:12 ki11z0ne wrote: lol toss easy....good one.... you no how micro intensive Terran is guys? especially if its a TvT.... judt wastch TLO vs BratOk...lol 300+ the whole game just to keep up and TLO still lost... toss easy lolz... cant 1A with HT in your army....
End game zerg can A move with their broodlord/roach army, oh and cast some spells with the infestor.
What do toss have to do to fight it? blinking to kill infestors (NP) and broodlords, spreading and microing voidrays to avoid fungal and kill broodlords, storm, focus firing with collossi (getting rid of infestors and NP).
What the fuck does zerg have to do in that situation?
Fighting the lower ranked Terrans? Won some, lost some, but it was always either a close match or a solid win for one of the players. The "lucky win" bullshit that happened with the toss players was extremely rare.
Interesting. Back in my bronze days, the only defeats I thought were really undeserved were all against...Terran. I can"t recall how many games I lost to Terrans that clearly were far below me in skill. Which never happened against other races, except for cheeses of course.
Terran is also not the favourite race of bronze players/beginners for no reason.
I will probably explain my reasons later but it is clear to me that (at a low/average skill level) :
Terran is the easiest Protoss is quite harder Zerg is by far the hardest race ( and the least played, coincidentally).
I'm a random diamond player, and to my experience, Protoss is the easiest because macro is easy (only warp-gates, robotics and stargates basically), and less multitasking since you don't really do massive multipronged harasses so you can just attack with one large clump of units.
Zerg is in the middle, because you (at many levels and to a large extent) only focus on surviving and macroing. Sure, there is a lot to do at all times but you don't really have to harass until mutas are out and they are easy to control.
To my experience Terrans are the hardest to play. The macro is waay harder than with Protoss and you always need to pressure your opponent in EVERY matchup. The multitasking is insane and although less APM is needed than with Zerg (I average around 30 less with Terran), you need to have your focus on the entire map and really make sure to control your opponent while also macroing.
However, I do not believe Terrans are the worst race, Zerg second and Protoss overpowered. This is only how easy I find them to play.
TL:DR: I be diamond random player Protoss easiest Zerg middle Terran hardest
On August 11 2011 20:38 Xahhk wrote: End game zerg can A move with their broodlord/roach army, oh and cast some spells with the infestor.
What do toss have to do to fight it? blinking to kill infestors (NP) and broodlords, spreading and microing voidrays to avoid fungal and kill broodlords, storm, focus firing with collossi (getting rid of infestors and NP).
What the fuck does zerg have to do in that situation?
Well endgame toss can get the carriers, best dps in game. =)
On August 11 2011 17:37 aderum wrote: So.. does people realize that larvae stack up? While if you miss to warp in /build a unit that unit is forever gone? So yeah, missing an inject might be more bad than missing an chrono/mule, but missing to build your units for a while(as zerg) is not at all as severe av missing a warp in or terran equal..
More of Bob van Bronze and Hank Silverino commenting here .... please stop and close this thread already -.-
It seems that every random player I've seen writing in this thread thinks that Terran is the hardest and protoss is the easiest. I can accept that, I've gotten a few valid reasons.
protoss is easier cuz there is really no "need" for map pressence, just sit back, gogo 2 base timing attack easiest race by far... in high master ++ tho you can not say the same this IS the ez race sorry mac
I think it is the easiest race to learn. No race is easy to master.
Think protoss needs a cheap harass unit (think what terran got: hellion, reaper, even a mediavec drop with marines. and what zerg got: zerlgins banelings, muta (not really cheap but great harass)). And what got protoss? None! DT is a guess and expensive. Drops arent really that cost effective.
Muta are in my honest opinion to strong, just because they are so fast and they just can kill with 2-0 upgrades cannons really easy (so what you gotta do? blink stalker are on some maps nowhere near enough, especially when you got 3 bases or more). Then zerg got infestors what can keep your army stuck on a place. And tier 1 versus tier 1 with terran they instant lose. Zealots even with charge can be out micro'd.
Also zerg can remax very easy so 200 supply versus 200 supply will make us lose with just one tiny mistake.
And lots of broord lords will kill us any day.
Course the HT and collusus are very powerful. We also need sentrys early game to stay alive, to stay alive! So dont tell me it is an easy race on higher lvl.
On August 11 2011 18:23 kollin wrote: People think Protoss is easier, because a lot of the time they don't really have to harass (not saying they can't, but if they don't they won't lose). They also have very simple macro mechanics, I mean the game tells you when you need to make things out of your gateways.
I do agree that Protoss has hard micro mechanics in battles, but a lot of the time that's eradicated by the fact Protoss can instantly warp in reinforcements, whereas Zerg and Terran have to wait for their army to build.
If I have left anything out, or am brutally wrong about anything please say ^^
I never really understood this. It's not like we can just can spam in units all days long. Warpgates still have a cooldown. Yes, we can eliminate the distance time, but creep, medivacs and stim can shorten that time as well, but obviously not as well. And we still have to get that pylon down. Keep up scouting, take out rouge pylons, and on the attack, you may be able to snipe some warping in units. It's all good.
In my opinion, protoss are the easiest, you never stack minerals past like...silver level because you have a freaking button telling you when your gateways are ready. You dont need map control because if you get dropped, oh well, you can just warp in and loose no probes. You dont need to split your army because banelings arent chasing your marines, or youre not trying to make sure the guys doesn't focus fire your banes with seiges.
Protoss has a lot fo easy aspects, I cant think of anything hard thats in the protoss metagame.
Terran on paper is hardest to play at the highest level of play because it requires the highest apm and also has the slowest army production. It's simple math.
But if you look at strategy, playstyle and such, Protoss is the hardest to master. (IMO) .You are weak early, can so easily lose to early aggression - one missed forcefield and it's over.
I play Terran in mid masters. I played protoss for the first 8 months of beta/early retail. I could never get out of low masters (well equivalent when there was no diamond etc) with protoss because I just could not adapt to the play style.
On a more 'balance' note, the games balance falls on how strongly a player can utilize race strengths and weaknesses. When you master a race, and play vs someone who has mastered their race, it doesn't really matter how easy either is to play in my book.
Personally I feel it's more about match-ups. I've played all races a bit, altho I think I played Z the most, then P then T. Leaving mirror match-ups aside for the moment, I feel in order from hard to easy the match-ups are: PvT > ZvT > PvZ > TvZ > TvP > ZvP. This is just for me tho, and has no reflection on the highest level, as I'm low master and not GM or anywhere near ^^
Why do people keep saying that blink micro is hard? It's THE easiest "spell" to micro. Select a few staplers taking damage, B, click to the back of your army, repeat. Marine splitting and stim kiting are much more difficult. Marine splitting is actually incredibly difficult compared to any other micro tactic in this game, but yields the most gain from doing so. Forcefield micro is important, yes, but when you have 10 sentries with full energy all you have to do is spam F+click...
I'm not saying Zerg micro is harder or anything but those people complaining that Protoss is micro intensive have never played Terran at a high level.
On August 11 2011 20:40 borny wrote: I'll just add my input.
I'm a random diamond player, and to my experience, Protoss is the easiest because macro is easy (only warp-gates, robotics and stargates basically), and less multitasking since you don't really do massive multipronged harasses so you can just attack with one large clump of units.
Zerg is in the middle, because you (at many levels and to a large extent) only focus on surviving and macroing. Sure, there is a lot to do at all times but you don't really have to harass until mutas are out and they are easy to control.
To my experience Terrans are the hardest to play. The macro is waay harder than with Protoss and you always need to pressure your opponent in EVERY matchup. The multitasking is insane and although less APM is needed than with Zerg (I average around 30 less with Terran), you need to have your focus on the entire map and really make sure to control your opponent while also macroing.
However, I do not believe Terrans are the worst race, Zerg second and Protoss overpowered. This is only how easy I find them to play.
TL:DR: I be diamond random player Protoss easiest Zerg middle Terran hardest
I am a random player as well and for me it's exactly the opposite, terran easiest and protoss hardest. I even started to pick protoss to brush up my skill with this race , but I lose so much it's not even funny.
I think it's just something that carried over from BW for me. I don't think they are the easiest race by any means, but lots of people disagree. I think the other races have a way easier macro mode. Protoss, you are forced to go back to your base to macro. With Terran, you can macro while microing.
I feel that for some (at least for me) this has to do with previous RTS experience. For example, I used to play a lot of AoE 2. Which meant that units came out of individual structures, and you could rally them to a certain point. Because all Zerg's units came out of 1 building this was hard for me to play as, and similar to warp gate the units couldn't be rallied in the traditional sense, and when I was new not being able to queue up the units was also challenging. Terran was the optimal choice for me in terms of ease of mechanics, though I did decide on protoss because my friends who got me into the game hate on Terran a lot
while at high level it's irrelevant, at low level, the macro mechanics are the most forgiving (chrono boost, warp gates,) with the "beefiest" units. Also, upgrades are more focused and easier to implement (zerg have to choose between melee and ranged, and armor or air, terran has to choose between infantry/armor, mech/armor, or air/armor) into your primary army, and tech switching is more forgiving.
Protoss stops becoming "easy" once players pass platinum or diamond, however.
the answer to this is simple, lets do an overview of each race strengths and compare
Protoss Pros:
Probes- probe make the and move on, and let it warp in. yes it still takes time, but compared to terrans, and especially zerg who lose their drone. thats just OP
Sentries- dont even need to explain them. only unit in the game that can make an instant loss no matter how you play into an easy win if your good with the F key(also works for stalkers!, see blink below)
-Shields- yes, they cant heal body dmg, but shields are good and regen quickly(compare to zerg regen which is so terrible, they might as well remove it, noone would notice)
-Chronoboost -arguably the most imba ability in the game(MULE is a close second) good from the beginning to the end, costs no resources to use, and does everything from researching upgrades to even lower the CD on warpgates. what do u need? a friggen nexus
-overall stronger units(also a con bc of the higher cost)
Warp Cannon-easily the best defensive structure in the game, attacks land/air AND detects stealth, and for some reason, even takes less time to build than spine crawlers. and often flat out wins games, even at the pro level of play.(notice WBC getting all the way to the championship pool at MLG Anaheim mainly cannon rushing)
-Warp gate- got a pylon? then you can warp in units anywhere in the map nearly instantly. this ability is roughly all you need to define the protoss gameplay. no unit producing skill on either of the other two races remotely competes with this.
-Observers- an easily missed but huge pro to the protoss, yes, they require a robo so you cant spam colossi, but they are small, they are permanately cloaked, and they detect, they also fly meaning most units cant even hit them(even if you can see them) so they also give high ground spotting,they are also diffucult to click to attack bc of their small unit size(compare to overseers especially), and most importantly, all you have to do it is click follow on your deathball and forget about them. this negates many many strats of other races with no work involved, mainly hindering zerg. Burrowed roach move ins? Nope. Creep Spread? nope. ghost cloaks? much more difficult bc of colossi range. all in all. really really good. easily giving protoss the best detection
-Dark Templars- so good if you dont see them coming and arent prepared(especially as zerg) you flat out lose the game. even if the opponent does scout them, they are usefull throughout the entire game if done correctly (cons are high cost though)
-Warp Prism-underused and underappreciated, but amazing. compare having this to a Loud,obnoxious Nydus canal and tell me which one you would rather have.
Blink-figure out the F key, make lots of stalkers, and you now have the most cost efficient unit in the game.(nevermid the rest of the awesomeness given by this)
Colossi- yes colossi are amazing DPS, but what is the other MORE amazing thing about them? the fact that u can bunch them up over the top of your other units and have no pathing issues. that single problem is what makes thors and ultralisks suck in comparison.
upgarades- all land are shared, for some reason its completely reasonable that zealot upgrades are share with colossi(cough bullshit cough)
flexible play- another great thing about Protoss is that it can play whatever suits the player. wanna turtle and mass up? SURE! toss can do that. wanna be aggressive and put pressure while still be fairly macro-capable? okay!(stargate openers especially) one flaw is that they do have the most diffucult time taking expansions though.
phew that was long, and that was just toss, next is the T word(no, not Big T)
Terran Pros:
MULE,- lol many minerals!
Scan- lol scouting and detection!(would obviously rather MULE though)
Marines- still trying to figure out why the most basic unit in the game is probably the single best unit overall in the terran arsenal(as Jinro and Idra say, Marines dont actually cost minerals, they just cost supply)
-Stim, yay for making insane dps even more insane(caution hazardous to your health)
-Maraduers- not use as much anymore bc people discovered the awesomeness of marine, but still very good and micro- capable
Siege tanks!- yay
Hellions: yay!
Blue flame upgrade-yes, it deserves its own spot
reactor addon- making macro funner since 2010
vikings- soooo good(with reactors!)
ghosts-powerful, and starting to be used
Planatery Fortress- makes expos easier
ability to lift most structures-nothing says fuck you like lifting all your buildings and flying them into the map corners when you've lost.
drop play-seperates the Terran boys from the Bastards
flexible playstyle as well-basically the same as protoss.
Zerg pros
massive expanding- very good, but also a must, (so therefore a con as well)
-counterattack ability- yay for zergling runbys why the enemy is attacking
queen injections-nothing says harhar to your oppenent like instantly remaxing your army 3 times if your perfect at injections.
-low cost units(also a con as they suck in small numbers)
-Roaches-(supply con though)
creep- good creep spread seperates the Zerg overlords from johnny Bronze
infestors- i admit it, these guys are good
Brood lords-see above
that being said, there are still cons to these races,(but this post is so damn long, i dont feel like writing them for each race now) but its not hard to see who is favored
On August 11 2011 22:39 Honeybadger wrote: while at high level it's irrelevant, at low level, the macro mechanics are the most forgiving (chrono boost, warp gates,) with the "beefiest" units. Also, upgrades are more focused and easier to implement (zerg have to choose between melee and ranged, and armor or air, terran has to choose between infantry/armor, mech/armor, or air/armor) into your primary army, and tech switching is more forgiving.
Protoss stops becoming "easy" once players pass platinum or diamond, however.
This. And most people play the game at a low level so they think protoss is easier.
The reason Protoss is considered the easiest race is because after the first 5 seconds of an engagement, in many cases, you don't even need to watch the battle beyond A-moving on the minimap. So often I too hear my friends/opponents complain about Protoss being easy. However, the complaint I often hear from them while observing is that Protoss don't even need to watch a battle as their fighting.
To those that debate this, I shall explain Pvnot P basic engagements: - Find the enemy army, or stay close to a wall/good choke - Cast your initial spells (forcefield, storm, blink splitting, what have you) - Go back to your closest pylon warp in your reinforcements. - Chronoboost your warpgates/robo/stargate if required - Start new tech at home (you need a templar archives for example for unscouted ghosts) - Go back to army. You are winning a fight.+ Show Spoiler +
I play protoss. This is not a balance argument. Many times your opponents give you free wins because they can't engage Protoss AoE. This was called a basic explanation because at low levels this little battle management still works.
Consider how much of that time isn't even spent watching the engagement. To your opponents that are furiously microing only to lose a battle you aren't watching, Protoss will seem easy. At a certain point, not watching and microing loses you games. The OP is in silver league, he isn't at that point.
Terran and Zerg units, especially compared to most of the Protoss units, are pretty flimsy. You can argue the difficulty in mechanics of injects/creep/chronoboost/mules etc, but I'd say it often comes down to the fact that you don't need to babysit your army.
I wonder how many people who claim "protoss EZ mode" could hold off a well-executed 1-1-1 marine-tank-banshee all-in. I think there's a lot of people who have never even played toss and think everything Idra says is gospel posting here.
On August 11 2011 05:17 DeepBlu2 wrote: Because it's just simpler, and requires less APM? not qqing, but I've played all 3 races, and I can say by Protoss is significantly easier, mechanics and APM wise. To be honest, I play protoss to relieve stress quite often on ladder.
Also, an important note: I'm left handed, protoss feels nicer as a left handed. as a Zerg player, i wish i wasn't left handed quite often as I'm forced to do a quite bad injection method.
You can start from the "lefties hotkeys" they included in the game and change a few things to make it very convenient. You can pretty much change everything now, there's no excuse for not finding something convenient as a leftie if you're willing to learn.
I have hatches at 0, queens at 9, backspace returns to my bases and injection is very easy using Mr Bitter's method.
Edit: Jesus Christ 20 pages just appeared out of nowhere... should've refreshed before posting sorry.
On August 11 2011 22:51 BushidoSnipr wrote: can all the ignorant protoss players leave this thread and only the terrans & zergs discuss?
its just disappointing seeing all these posts about PROTOSS IS ACTUALLY HARD even though its statistically, factually, and just flat out easy.
lol
please close this thread so this idiot among others doesn't have a place to spew his ignorance
User was warned for this post
Zerg-Cheap units, easily massable
Terran-Medium value units, not as easy to mass, but have good buid times for their power
Protoss-Very powerful units take long time to build, respective of their power have regenerative shields so u can be very flexible with your unit control
On August 11 2011 22:51 BushidoSnipr wrote: can all the ignorant protoss players leave this thread and only the terrans & zergs discuss?
its just disappointing seeing all these posts about PROTOSS IS ACTUALLY HARD even though its statistically, factually, and just flat out easy.
User was warned for this post
Please do share your experiences with Protoss, I'm dying to hear about it all. Seriously, I want to know why you think Protoss is so easy. Please give examples instead of just saying "it's easy". How is it "statistically" easy?
On August 11 2011 22:51 BushidoSnipr wrote: can all the ignorant protoss players leave this thread and only the terrans & zergs discuss?
its just disappointing seeing all these posts about PROTOSS IS ACTUALLY HARD even though its statistically, factually, and just flat out easy.
lol
please close this thread so this idiot among others doesn't have a place to spew his ignorance
User was warned for this post
Zerg-Cheap units, easily massable
Terran-Medium value units, not as easy to mass, but have good buid times for their power
Protoss-Very powerful units take long time to build, respective of their power have regenerative shields so u can be very flexible with your unit control
Thread killed for your ePeen battle.
Zero logic behnd this post. Easily counter argued by: reactor/larvae allows you to remax faster than chronoboost. That is counter argued by late, late game 23 warpgate Hasu stylin' That is counter argued by the concept that at 30+ minutes of a game, you're reaching.
See where this goes when you argue without any evidence at all? edit @ Zatic: it goes 40 pages long
On August 11 2011 23:00 zatic wrote: So I read the first few pages, a few in the middle, and the last few pages.
Is there anything to this thread but 40 pages of whining from all sides?
It's 70% people saying their race is the hardest, 25% people saying "fuck you bronze leaguer, my race is the hardest because xyz", and 5% people complaining about why this thread is open.
On August 11 2011 23:00 zatic wrote: So I read the first few pages, a few in the middle, and the last few pages.
Is there anything to this thread but 40 pages of whining from all sides?
It's 70% people saying their race is the hardest, 25% people saying "fuck you bronze leaguer, my race is the hardest because xyz", and 5% people complaining about why this thread is open.
Protoss have fewer and more individually powerful units.
This results in easier macro and micro.
Because you dont produce as many units, you have more time to focus on other parts of the game. In addition, the extra HP on units gives you more room for error when it comes to micro.
For example, if your unit accidently gets shot by a seige tank once while you are not paying attention, it just loses shields and you pull it back, as opposeed to it being blown up along with 4 of its friends in 1 shot.
With zergling and marine battles once you commit, theres no going back because your units die instantly. Theres no room for changing your mind.
This is why they have always been considered trhe easiest race even in broodwar. I have solved the debate, you can all go home now.
Protoss has the simplest macro, really. Chrono boost is a simple concept, and you just have to press W to build your units, and you can even chrono your probes. Contrarily, I believe Protoss can have very dynamic/difficult micro (especially in early game)
Terran can be argued to have a 'harder' macro mechanic between Mule and Scan. Also, whenever I play as terran I have no problem microing any units (siege up, 1a marines, derp?), but having a perfect macro as terran is much more difficult to achieve, as there is a bit more multitasking necessary for their macro. (preventing floating mins, etc.)
Zerg macro is difficult to grasp at first (balancing workers/units and knowing when to build workers, vs other races can build workers through their nexus/cc), and creepspread/larva inject are continuous necessities throughout the game as you play, and obv cannot be ignored. though once you get setup, you can just hit #szzzzzz or whatever unit you need for quick unit creation.
I personally think protoss is the easiest race because it doesnt require as much multitasking as the other races do. A protoss that just sits until he hits 200 supply is going to do to do better than a zerg doing the same thing, and MUCH better than a terran doing the same thing.
It's not that all protosses are bad and just sit around and do nothing though, it's more that they dont really have a viable option for harassment, bar DT's and MAYBE phoenix, but they're not the same as drops/nydus/hellions/mutas/lings, etc.
And then warp gates are also pretty intuitive, if you're high on minerals, you make zealots, if you're high on gas, you make sentries. Not to mention that because of the warp gate mechanic, you can sometimes get rewarded by macroing poorly, if someone drops let's say 8 marines in your base, you just warp in 5 zealots and you dont have to worry about it.
So basically, protoss is the easiest race for the same reason that it's probably the worst race at the very highest level, and at that level, protoss is just as hard to play as terran/zerg as you need to be able to work around the difficulties protoss has with harassing and such.
And as a zerg, I find terran much more challenging to play than protoss whenever I'm offracing, mostly due to the reasons I've already stated.
I think Protoss is easier to pick up and play. However, that is not the same as saying it is easier to WIN with Protoss, because in my opinion Protoss has a limited skill ceiling. For example, for ZvP, there is only so much you can do as Protoss, Protoss army is so immobile, you don't really have any real harass units, (VR Cheese and Phoenixes is pretty much defensible by anyone now, just make drones, queens and spores), when you move your ball out, you have to commit all the way, which is probably the reason why Protoss players resort to allins and timing attacks to win most of the time. However there's only so many times you can allin your way through tournaments before people start figuring out the timings for your attacks.
- Simplest production. Press w, S, hold shift, spam anywhere on the map sort of. - Simplest micro, keep colossi in back blink back stalker. - Simplest mechanics, oops forgot some probes ill just chrono some out and i'll be back on top of economy. - Forgiving units with shields allow you a second chance to back off which terran doesn't allow. - Great tech switches if you go down the wrong path and get C but your army would die to B. You warp in some, and get immortals instead of collossi for composition A.
I have played all races and i think protoss is the most fun race to play, second is terran. The basics of protoss is easy but its so hard to be very good. The other races is stronger overall i think, just watch statistics a terran can make big mistakes and still win a protoss cant make many mistakes against top terran and zergs. I think its hardest race to be good at.
On August 11 2011 23:26 Olsson wrote: - Simplest production. Press w, S, hold shift, spam anywhere on the map sort of. - Simplest micro, keep colossi in back blink back stalker. - Simplest mechanics, oops forgot some probes ill just chrono some out and i'll be back on top of economy. - Forgiving units with shields allow you a second chance to back off which terran doesn't allow. - Great tech switches if you go down the wrong path and get C but your army would die to B. You warp in some, and get immortals instead of collossi for composition A.
Really? Simplest production? Terran can just set rally point select baracks and press a... same idea Simplest micro? Yeah you dont need any micro for blink stalker, forcefields, dt, ht, etc -.- Simplest mechanics? If you dont chrono boost you will be behind, why do you think chrono boost is there. Otherwise you will be behind with terran with there mule drops. Forgiving units? Zerg can regain health with burrowed units, can let queens heal. Terran has scv to heal tanks etc and medivec to heal marines etc. Great tech switches? So terran cant go from marines to marauder? Terran cant switch add-ons? Zerg cant go make something else with larve? You cant be serious about that, can you?
On August 11 2011 22:16 enecateReAP wrote: In my opinion, protoss are the easiest, you never stack minerals past like...silver level because you have a freaking button telling you when your gateways are ready. You dont need map control because if you get dropped, oh well, you can just warp in and loose no probes. You dont need to split your army because banelings arent chasing your marines, or youre not trying to make sure the guys doesn't focus fire your banes with seiges.
Protoss has a lot fo easy aspects, I cant think of anything hard thats in the protoss metagame.
No need for map control? Besides the general benefits of knowing what's going on. Warping in after blue flame hellions finish their first few volleys really does not help. Same goes for baneling drops. And you realize how cost effective MM drops are against toss right? If they are dropped in a good position the warp in of zealots and stalkers don't manhandle it like you are suggesting.
No need to split? This screams troll bait. Heard of fungal growth? Baneling drops? Fungal growth AND baneling drops?
Also about our 'W' button, if you are terran you know you can produce more units when you hear unit confirmations, with zerg you can see how much larvae you have up. My comparisons are sound since you are strictly talking about the ability to SEE if you can produce another round of units or not.
I would say that Protoss is easy for beginners to learn to play SC2 based on personal experience. Learning Terran was hard for me because of all the stupid tech/reactor switching needed to be optimal and the marine micro. Because of that I switched to Protoss and actually learned how to play the game properly without having to worry about switching buildings properly.
On August 11 2011 23:18 TwilightStar wrote: As a random player, here are my thoughts.
Protoss has the simplest macro, really. Chrono boost is a simple concept, and you just have to press W to build your units, and you can even chrono your probes. Contrarily, I believe Protoss can have very dynamic/difficult micro (especially in early game)
Terran can be argued to have a 'harder' macro mechanic between Mule and Scan. Also, whenever I play as terran I have no problem microing any units (siege up, 1a marines, derp?), but having a perfect macro as terran is much more difficult to achieve, as there is a bit more multitasking necessary for their macro. (preventing floating mins, etc.)
Zerg macro is difficult to grasp at first (balancing workers/units and knowing when to build workers, vs other races can build workers through their nexus/cc), and creepspread/larva inject are continuous necessities throughout the game as you play, and obv cannot be ignored. though once you get setup, you can just hit #szzzzzz or whatever unit you need for quick unit creation.
You're only looking at the economy when speaking about macro. When protoss make units while in a battle, we have to leave the battleground and go back to a pylon to make units. Terran on the other hand can micro and macro at the same time, which is why their units are weaker and protoss units are stronger.
I don't understand why people are whining about how hard their race is ... did you already know that you can actually CHOSE your own race. Besides I heard that random is pretty good
On August 11 2011 23:00 zatic wrote: So I read the first few pages, a few in the middle, and the last few pages.
Is there anything to this thread but 40 pages of whining from all sides?
Nope, sorry...
I read the first few pages yesterday, was surprised it was already 4pages of whining and not closed, and now I'm extremely surprised it's still not closed after 42pages...
But after reading maybe a bit more than half of the pages in this thread, I really feel like Protoss is extremely easy, and that when I come back home tonight I'll instantly be at the top of the GrandMasters league.
I think I'll even switch to Terran just to have some kind of challenge. Yup, I'm totally serial.
On August 11 2011 23:26 Olsson wrote: - Simplest production. Press w, S, hold shift, spam anywhere on the map sort of. - Simplest micro, keep colossi in back blink back stalker. - Simplest mechanics, oops forgot some probes ill just chrono some out and i'll be back on top of economy. - Forgiving units with shields allow you a second chance to back off which terran doesn't allow. - Great tech switches if you go down the wrong path and get C but your army would die to B. You warp in some, and get immortals instead of collossi for composition A.
- All unit producing structures are similar in difficulty. Just press a key and units are made. - You forget that during a battle you have to micro your sentries put up well placed forcefileds, as well as make sure your high templars don't get emp'd or fungaled. Also you have to make sure vikings, or corruptors don't get at your collosi and do too much damage. - A chrono boost doesn't automatically catch you up and put you ahead economically. Missing probe production hurts you just as much as it would if you are a terran not producing scv's or a zerg missing a drones. - "Forgiving units with shields allow you a second chance to back off which terran doesn't allow." Well there are these wonderful things called medivacs and they kinda do the same thing as regenerating shileds accept at a faster rate. Zerg also regenerates hp but at a similar rate to shields.
I'm not saying that Protoss is the most difficult race by any means. I think that it technically is easier at the non pro level. Once you get to the professional level each race is equally hard. However I just felt the need to respond to this because your responses and almost all of these responses are just uneducated and stupid. The only one i cannot respond to is the one about easy tech switches and that being because I don't know enough about the terran and zerg tech paths and their ability to switch paths. But really why not think a little before saying something.
First of all, IdrA's balance complaints are not to be ignored. The guy understands the game incredibly well and to imply that he doesn't or is just biased is ignorant, especially coming from a silver-leaguer who knows essentially nothing about how zerg or terran are played.
Protoss is easy relatively to the other races. As Zerg, you need to outsmart and outmacro your opponent. It's incredibly hard to cheese, or win without playing greedily, scouting is incredibly important (your units are not cost-effective and can be countered easily), missing injects is incredibly punishing, and you need a lot of APM to macro, spread creep, scout, and micro your units.
Terran is harder than Protoss as well. Terran micro is incredibly difficult compared to even Zerg micro but especially Protoss micro (a-move, f+click and/or t+click). Terran and Zerg reward good multitasking very well, as Terran you need to micro drops, macro units, build depots consistently and que scvs back to mining, have very organized building placement, not to mention use of scans effectively, knowing when to siege up, when to stim, how many marines/marauders to stim in a given situation, the amount that you're punished for being out of position, etc.
By contrast, as Protoss I've been using this new strategy where I roll two dice to see how many gates I allin with, add tech appropriately, and this seems to work really well. 2 gate zealots, 3 gate stargate, 4 gate, 5 gate zealot-sentry, 6 gate, 7 gate blink, 8 gate blink, 9+ 3 base turtle to colossus sentry stalker.
Also,
- All unit producing structures are similar in difficulty. Just press a key and units are made. - You forget that during a battle you have to micro your sentries put up well placed forcefileds, as well as make sure your high templars don't get emp'd or fungaled. Also you have to make sure vikings, or corruptors don't get at your collosi and do too much damage. - A chrono boost doesn't automatically catch you up and put you ahead economically. Missing probe production hurts you just as much as it would if you are a terran not producing scv's or a zerg missing a drones. - "Forgiving units with shields allow you a second chance to back off which terran doesn't allow." Well there are these wonderful things called medivacs and they kinda do the same thing as regenerating shileds accept at a faster rate. Zerg also regenerates hp but at a similar rate to shields.
-Your micro complaints (FFs, moving templar and colossi) require essentially no APM. -Larva injects don't do that either, they barely keep you even, and terran can't make workers as fast so mules are needed. -Zerg units do not regenerate HP NEARLY as fast as Protoss shields. You reveal your ignorance when you say things like this. Also medivacs need to be built (100mins/100gas) and kept alive and use energy and don't affect all units, shields have none of these problems.
Can't we just agree to disagree whilst agreeing that Random is considered to be the "awesomest race"?
How do I report this entire thread with all the trollbait and ignorance?
TL;DR for entire thread: (logical discussion) Protoss potentially has a low skill ceiling, meaning that it's both easy to learn at a low level, but hard to meet the varied challenges of a higher level. (the rest of you) I hate X race because I picked Y race and therefore you suck for being X or Z race.
gogo platnum noobies ye know everything about this game,close this god damn thread,only people who should comment on this subject are random players who played random from bronze to high masters and who dont prefer a race over others,and I bet thats about 0.00001% of the community,and 0% of the people who posted a comment
On August 12 2011 00:21 A-BomB wrote: gogo platnum noobies ye know everything about this game,close this god damn thread,only people who should comment on this subject are random players who played random from bronze to high masters and who dont prefer a race over others,and I bet thats about 0.00001% of the community,and 0% of the people who posted a comment
On August 12 2011 00:21 A-BomB wrote: gogo platnum noobies ye know everything about this game,close this god damn thread,only people who should comment on this subject are random players who played random from bronze to high masters and who dont prefer a race over others,and I bet thats about 0.00001% of the community,and 0% of the people who posted a comment
On August 11 2011 23:26 Olsson wrote: - Simplest production. Press w, S, hold shift, spam anywhere on the map sort of. - Simplest micro, keep colossi in back blink back stalker. - Simplest mechanics, oops forgot some probes ill just chrono some out and i'll be back on top of economy. - Forgiving units with shields allow you a second chance to back off which terran doesn't allow. - Great tech switches if you go down the wrong path and get C but your army would die to B. You warp in some, and get immortals instead of collossi for composition A.
just by this post shows you have no clue, great tech switches? If we go DT or we got Stargate its bloody hard and costs so much mroe to swtich to Robo. So no not easy, Zerg if at liar only need one building, and Terran can swtich ractors and tech labs around all their unit producing buildings so no, with protoss if you go anything but Robo generally ur scouting suffers and also so does most chances of wining, Thats why any Protoss that goes DT vs Zerg and they scout or see it, normally ends up losing isntantly.
Everysingle race has the same production, slect drones press a key... Terran press barracks make marine so that makes no sense.
Simplest micro? How is that so when unmicroed we lose to any type of infestor usage and also any mmm pressure, we dont micro??? haha???? If Protoss DOESNT MICro use forcefields feedback ghosts or infestors or use storms well we will lose, we also dont just pull colussus back when they are being hit by eithier vikings or corruptors as moving them back out fo the way mrean no DPS and we aslo need to micro other units....
Chrono boost is nowhere near on par with Mule which is a LOT more forgiving, and also well scouted a zerg can do one round of drones and drone up just as quick where chrono boost if not used on gateways or buildings also cant catchup once well behind.
Shields regeneerate so do Zergs units on creep and also has transfuse from queens on larger units, then you also have medivacs with Terran so the same can be said for ALL three races.
My god whiny Zergs annoy me, just ebcause Idra says somethign doesnt mean its true.
I actually think its great for lower levels protoss but higher levels the other two races have it better shown by the win rates of protoss vs eithier race in the lastmonth or two.
My quick 2 cents on the 2 things that make protoss the "easiest race":
-Force field can be acquired early and can cut armies in half, which can easily devastate a zerg/terran force and allows protoss to pull ahead immediately. I don't know of a single Protoss player who doesn't know how to use FF effectively (so many people claiming you lose if you misplace a FF but I rarely see this happen). 4 out of 5 times, at least 1/4 of my forces get trapped, this makes it extremely difficult to attack early and mid-game.
-Observers allow Protoss guaranteed intel and are extremely hard to find/kill. Protoss always know when you are at a weak point in the game or always see the weakest of your bases, can blink in/out causing tons of damage and often lose nothing by the time you walk your force there to defend. This is coming from a Terran standpoint. I'm sure Zerg have an easier time dealing with blink stalkers attacking a distant base.
On August 11 2011 05:07 jonathan1 wrote: in my opinion, it's because they don't have the ability to move out of their base with small amounts of units to harass very well. we can see much more multi-tasking from terran and zerg players while protoss tend to sit in their base more and just focus on macro.
I think the fact that there's 42 pages and counting of arguing is pretty good proof in itself that there is no easiest race. Not sure how this thread is even still open.
Not to be a hypocrite by continuing the argument or anything, but this post is upsetting me, so I'm going to address it. (Edit: Evidently I'm not the first one to do so.)
On August 11 2011 23:26 Olsson wrote: - Simplest production. Press w, S, hold shift, spam anywhere on the map sort of.
Spam anywhere on the map? Terran don't have to spam anywhere on the map AT ALL. Press 4 and spam A, no clicks required. (Not that number of clicks in a production cycle is in any way indicative of difficulty)
- Simplest micro, keep colossi in back blink back stalker.
How convenient of you to forget sentries, HT, and phoenix.
- Simplest mechanics, oops forgot some probes ill just chrono some out and i'll be back on top of economy.
Because having 5 super SCVs instantly fall from the sky for free is so much different?
- Forgiving units with shields allow you a second chance to back off which terran doesn't allow.
Medivacs? Mech repair?
- Great tech switches if you go down the wrong path and get C but your army would die to B. You warp in some, and get immortals instead of collossi for composition A.
... what?
I know it might sound like I'm complaining Terran is easy, but I'm not. Just trying to point out how biased your post is. I don't think there is an "easiest race." I play random.
On August 12 2011 00:17 crocodile wrote: First of all, IdrA's balance complaints are not to be ignored. The guy understands the game incredibly well and to imply that he doesn't or is just biased is ignorant, especially coming from a silver-leaguer who knows essentially nothing about how zerg or terran are played.
Why cant idra go and talk to nestea about balance? Nestea cant be beat by anybody i guess hes think zerg sucks.
first off you say your in silver league, so when you say things like "protoss micro is harder" isn't really a solid fact, just based off your opinion, and if you're in silver, or even below diamond you're micro could be so much improved, aswell as so many other aspects of the game so to make these statements at your level is ludicrous.
But what makes protoss the easiest is first off how you warp in buildings, not requiring to pay attention to building making so you don't lose a worker or take one off mining, also warp gates don't need to be hotkeyed, they can be warped in anywhere instantly, chronoboost makes probe production way quicker, and very little required micro when going for a death ball, just 1 A, and even when going templar tech, the micro is 1 A, than storm and click or feedback, not really hard.
I don't think protoss is imba but it is definately the easiest race to play
On August 12 2011 00:30 Weioo wrote: My quick 2 cents on the 2 things that make protoss the "easiest race":
-Force field can be acquired early and can cut armies in half, which can easily devastate a zerg/terran force and allows protoss to pull ahead immediately. I don't know of a single Protoss player who doesn't know how to use FF effectively (so many people claiming you lose if you misplace a FF but I rarely see this happen). 4 out of 5 times, at least 1/4 of my forces get trapped, this makes it extremely difficult to attack early and mid-game.
-Observers allow Protoss guaranteed intel and are extremely hard to find/kill. Protoss always know when you are at a weak point in the game or always see the weakest of your bases, can blink in/out causing tons of damage and often lose nothing by the time you walk your army there..
Well placing forcefields can be damn hard in certain situations, If I went for a zealot/sentry/collosi with minimal stalker support and you went for a Double-React-Starport (or even double-starport agaisnt any composition that includes collosi really) and the terran camps his viking and start picking off your collosi you have to engage so you try to move in but the terran's army constantly stays out of range of the FF due to stim and slowly picks off your charging zealot, you then need to tell your zealot to stay back but by that time you loose you collosi and terran moves in and sweep your army since you don't have anymore collosi support.
Sure observers are hard to see, I agree, however zerg keeps an overseer with their army most of the time and terrans camps their natural under a missile turret. Your complaint about seeing the weakest point, blink there and pull back isn't exactly what terrans are doing to protoss since the dawn of time ? Drop in the main to attract the fast units (stalkers) while stimming and picking off the third base? In the situation of a PvZ , that's why proper creep spread is important and xel'naga towers are important, to know when the protoss is pushing and where, also, every single units zerg has is faster than stalkers on creep. So walking there isn't the big problem you describe with proper map control and correct reaction time.
On August 12 2011 00:40 Slago wrote: first off you say your in silver league, so when you say things like "protoss micro is harder" isn't really a solid fact, just based off your opinion, and if you're in silver, or even below diamond you're micro could be so much improved, aswell as so many other aspects of the game so to make these statements at your level is ludicrous.
But what makes protoss the easiest is first off how you warp in buildings, not requiring to pay attention to building making so you don't lose a worker or take one off mining, also warp gates don't need to be hotkeyed, they can be warped in anywhere instantly, chronoboost makes probe production way quicker, and very little required micro when going for a death ball, just 1 A, and even when going templar tech, the micro is 1 A, than storm and click or feedback, not really hard.
I don't think protoss is imba but it is definately the easiest race to play
you clearly havent played Protoss at all so shouldnt even bother posting in this thread if you think they only need to press 1 A to win. If thats so how come they ahev losing streaks in GSL and have lsoing records in the last month vs both Zerg and terrans proven in a similar thead from liquids own TLPD.
Come to think of it after reading the last 5 comments from anti protoss lovers im not goign to post in this thread ever again eithier. Complete and utter clueless people posting here, this thread should be closed as its going nowhere at all. Misinformed people whining about whos race is the easiest biased.
oh wow, i didnt expect this to go to 42 pages haha.
my 2 cents. the only reason i think protoss is the easiest is the warp cooldown mechanic, if you can get units out when that cooldown happens than your easy on your way to diamond and masters.
As a Terran Player it feels like, Gate units are quite strong. Combined with the warpin mechanic it is a bit easier in the lower leagues ( bronze - diamond ). Terrans first need to be VERY good with their bio to be able to compete with that. Dont know how it feels for zerg player.
On August 12 2011 00:30 Weioo wrote: My quick 2 cents on the 2 things that make protoss the "easiest race":
-Force field can be acquired early and can cut armies in half, which can easily devastate a zerg/terran force and allows protoss to pull ahead immediately. I don't know of a single Protoss player who doesn't know how to use FF effectively (so many people claiming you lose if you misplace a FF but I rarely see this happen). 4 out of 5 times, at least 1/4 of my forces get trapped, this makes it extremely difficult to attack early and mid-game.
-Observers allow Protoss guaranteed intel and are extremely hard to find/kill. Protoss always know when you are at a weak point in the game or always see the weakest of your bases, can blink in/out causing tons of damage and often lose nothing by the time you walk your army there..
Well placing forcefields can be damn hard in certain situations, If I went for a zealot/sentry/collosi with minimal stalker support and you went for a Double-React-Starport (or even double-starport agaisnt any composition that includes collosi really) and the terran camps his viking and start picking off your collosi you have to engage so you try to move in but the terran's army constantly stays out of range of the FF due to stim and slowly picks off your charging zealot, you then need to tell your zealot to stay back but by that time you loose you collosi and terran moves in and sweep your army since you don't have anymore collosi support.
Sure observers are hard to see, I agree, however zerg keeps an overseer with their army most of the time and terrans camps their natural under a missile turret. Your complaint about seeing the weakest point, blink there and pull back isn't exactly what terrans are doing to protoss since the dawn of time ? Drop in the main to attract the fast units (stalkers) while stimming and picking off the third base? In the situation of a PvZ , that's why proper creep spread is important and xel'naga towers are important, to know when the protoss is pushing and where, also, every single units zerg has is faster than stalkers on creep. So walking there isn't the big problem you describe with proper map control and correct reaction time.
in your first paragraph that is a horrible example, that comes down to him countering your build, you need to scout and do a different build, because double reactor port counters low stalker collsi death ball doesn't make protoss hard, it means you need to scout :/
On August 12 2011 00:44 WniO wrote: oh wow, i didnt expect this to go to 42 pages haha.
my 2 cents. the only reason i think protoss is the easiest is the warp cooldown mechanic, if you can get units out when that cooldown happens than your easy on your way to diamond and masters.
What... this is the exact same thing for Terran and Zerg... If you add another inject when the first one vanishes or if you can add another unit when the first one finishes (you can even put them in before !! , thats like queing units out of a warpgate or queing inject, how wonderfull ! ) than your easy on your way to diamond and masters.
So i playd a half year random, and i think u cant say there is a easiest race. It depends if its beginning, mid or late game. At the beginning Terran is the easiest race but as Protoss u often have a hard time if there comes a 3 rax push or 6 pool, because then u realy must micro. But in the late game its very easy with Protoss.
On August 11 2011 06:38 wei2coolman wrote: Press "w" "s" click, repeat, "s" click", until warpgates are on cooldown.
This is why.
and this is harder than pressing "5" "s" "rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr" ?
Roaches don't pop out instantly, nor do they blink around.
You do realize that warpgate has cooldown? and that you can reproduce 50 roches at one, while you only can reproduce as many stalkers as you have gateways. I cant really understand how you would say that protoss is so easy when GSL is dominated by zerg and terran. This is just batshit crasy.
GSL is not dominated by zerg and terran.
until this moment the little remaining protosses in code s are getting crushed by inferior adversaries playing different races. MC and Alicia getting 4th??? That is just crazy.
On August 12 2011 00:40 Slago wrote: first off you say your in silver league, so when you say things like "protoss micro is harder" isn't really a solid fact, just based off your opinion, and if you're in silver, or even below diamond you're micro could be so much improved, aswell as so many other aspects of the game so to make these statements at your level is ludicrous.
But what makes protoss the easiest is first off how you warp in buildings, not requiring to pay attention to building making so you don't lose a worker or take one off mining, also warp gates don't need to be hotkeyed, they can be warped in anywhere instantly, chronoboost makes probe production way quicker, and very little required micro when going for a death ball, just 1 A, and even when going templar tech, the micro is 1 A, than storm and click or feedback, not really hard.
I don't think protoss is imba but it is definately the easiest race to play
you clearly havent played Protoss at all so shouldnt even bother posting in this thread if you think they only need to press 1 A to win. If thats so how come they ahev losing streaks in GSL and have lsoing records in the last month vs both Zerg and terrans proven in a similar thead from liquids own TLPD.
Come to think of it after reading the last 5 comments from anti protoss lovers im not goign to post in this thread ever again eithier. Complete and utter clueless people posting here, this thread should be closed as its going nowhere at all. Misinformed people whining about whos race is the easiest biased.
it's funny cause your post was completely pointless, you didn't counter anything I said, you just said I was an idiot and shouldn't post here, not once did I say that protoss was winning alot, maybe you should learn top read a post before you reply, right now the game feels really balanced, maybe a few tweaks, but honestly if you play better than you're opponent you will win 95% of the time.
since you can't understand what I was saying let me spell it out, the compositions protoss use right now are deathballs with collos/voids, or deathballs with temps/archons, obviously there are other strats built that is what is hugely prodominent right now, especially after seeing only those comps in the GSTL this morning. with those compositions there i9s very little micro besides blink/ff/storm, all of which are fairly simple.
they do only need to press 1A to win in low leagues like diamond and below, that doesn't work higher up, but it still makes them the easiest, not the most powerful but the easiest
On August 12 2011 00:17 crocodile wrote: First of all, IdrA's balance complaints are not to be ignored. The guy understands the game incredibly well and to imply that he doesn't or is just biased is ignorant, especially coming from a silver-leaguer who knows essentially nothing about how zerg or terran are played.
Protoss is easy relatively to the other races. As Zerg, you need to outsmart and outmacro your opponent. It's incredibly hard to cheese, or win without playing greedily, scouting is incredibly important (your units are not cost-effective and can be countered easily), missing injects is incredibly punishing, and you need a lot of APM to macro, spread creep, scout, and micro your units.
Terran is harder than Protoss as well. Terran micro is incredibly difficult compared to even Zerg micro but especially Protoss micro (a-move, f+click and/or t+click). Terran and Zerg reward good multitasking very well, as Terran you need to micro drops, macro units, build depots consistently and que scvs back to mining, have very organized building placement, not to mention use of scans effectively, knowing when to siege up, when to stim, how many marines/marauders to stim in a given situation, the amount that you're punished for being out of position, etc.
By contrast, as Protoss I've been using this new strategy where I roll two dice to see how many gates I allin with, add tech appropriately, and this seems to work really well. 2 gate zealots, 3 gate stargate, 4 gate, 5 gate zealot-sentry, 6 gate, 7 gate blink, 8 gate blink, 9+ 3 base turtle to colossus sentry stalker.
- All unit producing structures are similar in difficulty. Just press a key and units are made. - You forget that during a battle you have to micro your sentries put up well placed forcefileds, as well as make sure your high templars don't get emp'd or fungaled. Also you have to make sure vikings, or corruptors don't get at your collosi and do too much damage. - A chrono boost doesn't automatically catch you up and put you ahead economically. Missing probe production hurts you just as much as it would if you are a terran not producing scv's or a zerg missing a drones. - "Forgiving units with shields allow you a second chance to back off which terran doesn't allow." Well there are these wonderful things called medivacs and they kinda do the same thing as regenerating shileds accept at a faster rate. Zerg also regenerates hp but at a similar rate to shields.
-Your micro complaints (FFs, moving templar and colossi) require essentially no APM. -Larva injects don't do that either, they barely keep you even, and terran can't make workers as fast so mules are needed. -Zerg units do not regenerate HP NEARLY as fast as Protoss shields. You reveal your ignorance when you say things like this. Also medivacs need to be built (100mins/100gas) and kept alive and use energy and don't affect all units, shields have none of these problems.
You reveal your ignorance when you say things like this.
On August 12 2011 00:34 Cofo wrote: I think the fact that there's 42 pages and counting of arguing is pretty good proof in itself that there is no easiest race. Not sure how this thread is even still open.
Not to be a hypocrite by continuing the argument or anything, but this post is upsetting me, so I'm going to address it. (Edit: Evidently I'm not the first one to do so.)
On August 11 2011 23:26 Olsson wrote: - Simplest production. Press w, S, hold shift, spam anywhere on the map sort of.
Spam anywhere on the map? Terran don't have to spam anywhere on the map AT ALL. Press 4 and spam A, no clicks required. (Not that number of clicks in a production cycle is in any way indicative of difficulty)
- Great tech switches if you go down the wrong path and get C but your army would die to B. You warp in some, and get immortals instead of collossi for composition A.
... what?
I know it might sound like I'm complaining Terran is easy, but I'm not. Just trying to point out how biased your post is. I don't think there is an "easiest race." I play random.
I do think Protoss is the easiest race at lower levels like Diamond or Master League and below; but likely harder at the highest level of play.
It's like BW.
Terran was unbelievably hard for average players in BW while Protoss seemed like a cake-walk. At the pro-level, though, Terran was (is?) very dominant. Zerg floated somewhere in the middle.
Now, if I were to look at the difficulty of races for the average player, I'd say it was something like:
Protoss - easiest Terran - average Zerg - hardest
Reason being, in my opinion, is that Protoss gets the furthest off the fewest bases once they're established behind a wall or natural expo defence. Nobody seems to rush these days, it's all macro, macro, macro (again, talking about lower leagues). So, once Protoss gets that magical number of colossi and VRs, they can pretty much just roll over an opponent that hasn't figured out how to pressure them beforehand. Something that's pretty hard for people in lower leagues.
So, I think the discussion shouldn't be about why Protoss is easiest (or considered such) but why it's considered such at specific levels of skill. I'd be willing to bet that race performance changes dramatically for all races across the various leagues.
On August 11 2011 05:07 jonathan1 wrote: in my opinion, it's because they don't have the ability to move out of their base with small amounts of units to harass very well. we can see much more multi-tasking from terran and zerg players while protoss tend to sit in their base more and just focus on macro.
Warp prism and phoenix...no sure what else to say
Do you even watch SC2? Who the hell uses warp prism, besides white ra.
On August 11 2011 05:12 DannyJ wrote: Macro is obviously the easiest, there's less ways to flat out die, A-moving is far more successful compared to other races.
Bull shit. Protoss vs Terran, Terran fails a push, not gg, Protoss fails, swarm of Tier 1.5 units = gg.
I don't think the whole "protoss is the easiest race" has any merit to it. Each race has its ups and downs in terms of difficulty. Protoss has to rely on micro in many early game situations, and has to deal with low mobility with their heavy hitting units. I feel zerg macro is often over exaggerated, it's not nearly as hard as zerg players would like to have you think, the thing that makes zerg hard is decision making, and is why zerg is probably the least forgiving race. Just my 2 cents.
I hope everyone took this opportunity to whine their heart out and I hope that will keep some people from whining about balance on the rest of the forum.
If not than well, at least there was a funny post on page one.
EPT
. I'm so eager to post it, lol.![[image loading]](http://www.fohguild.org/forums/attachments/starcraft-ii/171927d1305652662-protoss-strategies-replays-protosskeyboardsmul4.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.fohguild.org/forums/attachments/starcraft-ii/171928d1305652662-protoss-strategies-replays-forcefield.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.toyday.co.uk/shop/images/uploads/maracas1.jpg)
) where no one attacks in the mid game. It's all in aggro in the beginning or maxed armies later.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6xb9a.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pme5A.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Fjglf.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XA5Gh.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BAZWD.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lU5ap.png)
