|
It is not the easiest. Looking at Zerg and Terran replays that beat me, makes me feel they are the easier. Zerg can stack resources and spam their larvae if they go unpunish for bad marcoing and end up with same army supply any good zergs have. Terran can just 1a like protoss. And they have very strong 1 base all in.
Everybody has different opinions, at least to me, protoss is the hardest to play and master to perfection.
|
On August 11 2011 12:07 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 11:40 quiet noise wrote:On August 11 2011 11:37 Applesmack wrote:On August 11 2011 11:30 Trang wrote:On August 11 2011 09:30 Shooks wrote:On August 11 2011 09:21 grobo wrote:On August 11 2011 09:08 Shooks wrote:
Another thread with bronze level players commenting, sigh...
People talking about Protoss macro as if it's easy when we're the only race that can't really build units while micro'ing, people talking about how it's also easy to make gates, what? Terran have to make rax's, not much difference...
Point is, this thread is pointless, I wasn't lying when I said bronze level players, it's quite obvious the majority of the people posting have never even played at a high level if they think Protoss is A-moving race when that will get demolished by a MMM army with emp or an infestor based zerg army, Protoss is the most unforgiving race in terms of micro.
It also depends of which matchups, TvP is by far the most 1 dimensional matchup in the game, most top Terrans agree that it's a simple matchup for Terran. With that sentence i can now conclude that you are one of those bronze players you speak of. Toss has the toughest units in the entire game. As a zerg an entire control group of lings get roasted in a second to hellions if you look away at the wrong moment, an infinite number of mutas gets destroyed to a thor volley if you missmicro, huge groups of marines perish to two fungals. Nothing in a Toss army dies that quickly to anything. Now i play random so i don't care which race is easiest or hardest, but one thing is definitely true, as a toss you don't have to babysit your units like you have to with Z/T. Not being able to admit Protoss is the most unforgiving race blows my mind. I mean watching Yigioh play Thorzain the other day, can you honestly say that you need to baby sit units as zerg? Infact it's the complete opposite, the only units you need to babysit is the Mutas, and it's a fast flying units....Not exactly that hard if you have good APM. Like shit, I've vsed Zerg's that have just right clicked my Nexus with a bunch of roaches and lose them all then be able to make a ton more since there so cheap Since when is getting all your lings roasted gonna cost you the game, it can in the early game, but so does missing an FF on the ramp, durp. Saying Protoss units are tough is stupid, we get caught off guard and get fungal'd and we can lose them game right there, we get an Obs sniped and cloaked ghosts emp the sentrys and HTs, we lose, we get our collosi out of position and get sniped by vikings we lose, we miss FFs we lose, we have an HT based army against Terran and most of them get EMP'd we lose, the list goes on and on. I am not saying that Protoss is easier (I think this thread is a minefield really), but come on, let's be fair here. You're saying P loses if P gets EMP'd, misses FFs and so on. Sure that's true. But that isn't a fair basis for saying that P is the most unforgiving race. You're putting up a properly micro'd army against a non-micro'd army. No matter what the matchup, assuming comparable armies, the army with proper micro will always win against the army with no micro (I include setting up proper defensive positions, eg tank seiging, as micro). T and Z would lose too if their army gets stormed and feedbacked while they aren't watching. I also LOL at people saying protoss macro is easier. How is it easier exactly? Both P and T build units from their structures. Protoss has chrono and T has mule/scans (which I think is better). Both terran and protoss make their units from basically 3 structures: stargate/port, fac/robo/, gateway/rax. They basically identical in macro skill. Yep, and Zerg builds everything from 1 building and therefor doesnt need to add new facilities to increase production. Also, its cool if you slack on your macro for a minute because your larvae stacks up. Zerg has by far the easiest macro imo. ....half true in my opinion. Zerg and terran have very forgiving macro...especially terran....miss a mule drop?!? no problem you can just spam mules to play catch up....Zerg you can kinda stock up on larva....protoss you miss a chrono on nexus? too bad
how is zerg macro more forgiving than protoss. thats just an absurd claim. MULEs are probably the best out of the 3 but if zergs miss and inject, thats just potential gone. Chrono can be and is often saved up and spent in bursts. The problem with chrono is that the value of it drops as the game drags on to mid/late game generally.
I play toss and dont like the claims of toss being OP but saying missing injects is somehow more forgiving than missing a chrono is :/
|
In BroodWar protoss was definitely the easiest race to play until you hit that C+ish level, then after that protoss gets insanely hard ahah
I didnt think this carried onto Starcraft 2 though... I think zerg is easiest to play in sc2, but might just be because my offraces in bw were terrible.
|
On August 11 2011 12:22 Applesmack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 12:21 lyAsakura wrote:On August 11 2011 12:14 sickle wrote:
If protoss is so easy to play then why isn't the gsl dominated by them? Instead of that we have endless TvTvTvTs? Easy to play doesn't mean they're better... Protoss in BW is commonly accepted as the easiest to play race but protoss as a race has significantly less titles and usually very few top players. That makes no sense though. Why does protoss have very few top players if its so easy? You saying players will deliberately make it "harder" for themselves or something? I somehow doubt that. People say protoss is the easiest all the time yet at the top levels they often the ones doing the worst.
Skill caps. Given that protoss are lacking a harass unit (which will be adressed in HoTS) they don't have quite the variance in play or multi pronged attacks (except by things like DTs, but they can be nullified without counter-micro).
This makes a difference in overall play. Protoss units are also amazing when massed up, but in small numbers they can be picked off by things like speedlings or a medivac full of MM.
Generally things like improving constantly on your micro, map awareness and harassment can take you further as Z or T than P due to P's lack of options in that area.
|
On August 11 2011 12:26 paradox_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 12:07 SuperYo1000 wrote:On August 11 2011 11:40 quiet noise wrote:On August 11 2011 11:37 Applesmack wrote:On August 11 2011 11:30 Trang wrote:On August 11 2011 09:30 Shooks wrote:On August 11 2011 09:21 grobo wrote:On August 11 2011 09:08 Shooks wrote:
Another thread with bronze level players commenting, sigh...
People talking about Protoss macro as if it's easy when we're the only race that can't really build units while micro'ing, people talking about how it's also easy to make gates, what? Terran have to make rax's, not much difference...
Point is, this thread is pointless, I wasn't lying when I said bronze level players, it's quite obvious the majority of the people posting have never even played at a high level if they think Protoss is A-moving race when that will get demolished by a MMM army with emp or an infestor based zerg army, Protoss is the most unforgiving race in terms of micro.
It also depends of which matchups, TvP is by far the most 1 dimensional matchup in the game, most top Terrans agree that it's a simple matchup for Terran. With that sentence i can now conclude that you are one of those bronze players you speak of. Toss has the toughest units in the entire game. As a zerg an entire control group of lings get roasted in a second to hellions if you look away at the wrong moment, an infinite number of mutas gets destroyed to a thor volley if you missmicro, huge groups of marines perish to two fungals. Nothing in a Toss army dies that quickly to anything. Now i play random so i don't care which race is easiest or hardest, but one thing is definitely true, as a toss you don't have to babysit your units like you have to with Z/T. Not being able to admit Protoss is the most unforgiving race blows my mind. I mean watching Yigioh play Thorzain the other day, can you honestly say that you need to baby sit units as zerg? Infact it's the complete opposite, the only units you need to babysit is the Mutas, and it's a fast flying units....Not exactly that hard if you have good APM. Like shit, I've vsed Zerg's that have just right clicked my Nexus with a bunch of roaches and lose them all then be able to make a ton more since there so cheap Since when is getting all your lings roasted gonna cost you the game, it can in the early game, but so does missing an FF on the ramp, durp. Saying Protoss units are tough is stupid, we get caught off guard and get fungal'd and we can lose them game right there, we get an Obs sniped and cloaked ghosts emp the sentrys and HTs, we lose, we get our collosi out of position and get sniped by vikings we lose, we miss FFs we lose, we have an HT based army against Terran and most of them get EMP'd we lose, the list goes on and on. I am not saying that Protoss is easier (I think this thread is a minefield really), but come on, let's be fair here. You're saying P loses if P gets EMP'd, misses FFs and so on. Sure that's true. But that isn't a fair basis for saying that P is the most unforgiving race. You're putting up a properly micro'd army against a non-micro'd army. No matter what the matchup, assuming comparable armies, the army with proper micro will always win against the army with no micro (I include setting up proper defensive positions, eg tank seiging, as micro). T and Z would lose too if their army gets stormed and feedbacked while they aren't watching. I also LOL at people saying protoss macro is easier. How is it easier exactly? Both P and T build units from their structures. Protoss has chrono and T has mule/scans (which I think is better). Both terran and protoss make their units from basically 3 structures: stargate/port, fac/robo/, gateway/rax. They basically identical in macro skill. Yep, and Zerg builds everything from 1 building and therefor doesnt need to add new facilities to increase production. Also, its cool if you slack on your macro for a minute because your larvae stacks up. Zerg has by far the easiest macro imo. ....half true in my opinion. Zerg and terran have very forgiving macro...especially terran....miss a mule drop?!? no problem you can just spam mules to play catch up....Zerg you can kinda stock up on larva....protoss you miss a chrono on nexus? too bad how is zerg macro more forgiving than protoss. thats just an absurd claim. MULEs are probably the best out of the 3 but if zergs miss and inject, thats just potential gone. Chrono can be and is often saved up and spent in bursts. The problem with chrono is that the value of it drops as the game drags on to mid/late game generally. I play toss and dont like the claims of toss being OP but saying missing injects is somehow more forgiving than missing a chrono is :/
your right too but macro is more then just chrono inject and mules and they are very different....Guess thats more my fault but inject allows for stocking up on larva which once you have a ton of larva any extra resources can be all spent...protoss if you fall far behind its pretty much impossible to redeem yourself
|
On August 11 2011 12:28 Vore210 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 12:22 Applesmack wrote:On August 11 2011 12:21 lyAsakura wrote:On August 11 2011 12:14 sickle wrote:
If protoss is so easy to play then why isn't the gsl dominated by them? Instead of that we have endless TvTvTvTs? Easy to play doesn't mean they're better... Protoss in BW is commonly accepted as the easiest to play race but protoss as a race has significantly less titles and usually very few top players. That makes no sense though. Why does protoss have very few top players if its so easy? You saying players will deliberately make it "harder" for themselves or something? I somehow doubt that. People say protoss is the easiest all the time yet at the top levels they often the ones doing the worst. Skill caps. Given that protoss are lacking a harass unit (which will be adressed in HoTS) they don't have quite the variance in play or multi pronged attacks (except by things like DTs, but they can be nullified without counter-micro). This makes a difference in overall play. Protoss units are also amazing when massed up, but in small numbers they can be picked off by things like speedlings or a medivac full of MM. Generally things like improving constantly on your micro, map awareness and harassment can take you further as Z or T than P due to P's lack of options in that area.
Is there any indication of the harassment issue being addressed in HOTS, or are you simply making an optimistic assumption?
|
you people can't honestly be discussing this for 29 pages.
|
On August 11 2011 12:33 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 12:28 Vore210 wrote:On August 11 2011 12:22 Applesmack wrote:On August 11 2011 12:21 lyAsakura wrote:On August 11 2011 12:14 sickle wrote:
If protoss is so easy to play then why isn't the gsl dominated by them? Instead of that we have endless TvTvTvTs? Easy to play doesn't mean they're better... Protoss in BW is commonly accepted as the easiest to play race but protoss as a race has significantly less titles and usually very few top players. That makes no sense though. Why does protoss have very few top players if its so easy? You saying players will deliberately make it "harder" for themselves or something? I somehow doubt that. People say protoss is the easiest all the time yet at the top levels they often the ones doing the worst. Skill caps. Given that protoss are lacking a harass unit (which will be adressed in HoTS) they don't have quite the variance in play or multi pronged attacks (except by things like DTs, but they can be nullified without counter-micro). This makes a difference in overall play. Protoss units are also amazing when massed up, but in small numbers they can be picked off by things like speedlings or a medivac full of MM. Generally things like improving constantly on your micro, map awareness and harassment can take you further as Z or T than P due to P's lack of options in that area. Is there any indication of the harassment issue being addressed in HOTS, or are you simply making an optimistic assumption?
Browder said that protoss is getting a harassment unit in HoTS in an interview recently.
|
On August 11 2011 12:35 Vore210 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 12:33 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On August 11 2011 12:28 Vore210 wrote:On August 11 2011 12:22 Applesmack wrote:On August 11 2011 12:21 lyAsakura wrote:On August 11 2011 12:14 sickle wrote:
If protoss is so easy to play then why isn't the gsl dominated by them? Instead of that we have endless TvTvTvTs? Easy to play doesn't mean they're better... Protoss in BW is commonly accepted as the easiest to play race but protoss as a race has significantly less titles and usually very few top players. That makes no sense though. Why does protoss have very few top players if its so easy? You saying players will deliberately make it "harder" for themselves or something? I somehow doubt that. People say protoss is the easiest all the time yet at the top levels they often the ones doing the worst. Skill caps. Given that protoss are lacking a harass unit (which will be adressed in HoTS) they don't have quite the variance in play or multi pronged attacks (except by things like DTs, but they can be nullified without counter-micro). This makes a difference in overall play. Protoss units are also amazing when massed up, but in small numbers they can be picked off by things like speedlings or a medivac full of MM. Generally things like improving constantly on your micro, map awareness and harassment can take you further as Z or T than P due to P's lack of options in that area. Is there any indication of the harassment issue being addressed in HOTS, or are you simply making an optimistic assumption? Browder said that protoss is getting a harassment unit in HoTS in an interview recently.
Is there a source on that? :D
|
On August 11 2011 12:28 Vore210 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 12:22 Applesmack wrote:On August 11 2011 12:21 lyAsakura wrote:On August 11 2011 12:14 sickle wrote:
If protoss is so easy to play then why isn't the gsl dominated by them? Instead of that we have endless TvTvTvTs? Easy to play doesn't mean they're better... Protoss in BW is commonly accepted as the easiest to play race but protoss as a race has significantly less titles and usually very few top players. That makes no sense though. Why does protoss have very few top players if its so easy? You saying players will deliberately make it "harder" for themselves or something? I somehow doubt that. People say protoss is the easiest all the time yet at the top levels they often the ones doing the worst. Skill caps. Given that protoss are lacking a harass unit (which will be adressed in HoTS) they don't have quite the variance in play or multi pronged attacks (except by things like DTs, but they can be nullified without counter-micro). This makes a difference in overall play. Protoss units are also amazing when massed up, but in small numbers they can be picked off by things like speedlings or a medivac full of MM. Generally things like improving constantly on your micro, map awareness and harassment can take you further as Z or T than P due to P's lack of options in that area.
I agree. But this makes protoss hard to play, due to the lack of such options. Protoss is very unforgiving. A few sentries caught out of position - gg. A missed, or a not perfect ff - gg. If you didn't spot the drop on the way to your main while your army is in the middle of the map - gg.
|
Protoss seems to be the easiest race for a bunch of reasons:
warpgate mechanic and ability to macro purely through building more and more gateways
buildings auto build
easy hot keys
some devestating high tier units that require little control
all that being said I don't think toss is the easiest to play at higher levels where macro and micro mechanics are super solid across the board.
I can see the reason why OP made this thread. He was on a losing streak and he's really pissed off about it. He wants to give vent to his frustrations but if he complains people will just say LOLOLOL AT LEAST YOU DON'T PLAY ZERG. So in anticipation of that he creates this thread to first undermine the prevailing belief that protoss is the easiest to play in the spectrum of things, thus giving validity to his desire to whine.
I don't say this by way of criticism either, this game can evoke some strong emotions from people. Just know that the only way out is to improve.
|
+ Show Spoiler +On August 11 2011 05:14 HentaiPrime wrote:![[image loading]](http://www.fohguild.org/forums/attachments/starcraft-ii/171927d1305652662-protoss-strategies-replays-protosskeyboardsmul4.jpg) and ![[image loading]](http://www.fohguild.org/forums/attachments/starcraft-ii/171928d1305652662-protoss-strategies-replays-forcefield.jpg) now you're set! optional: ![[image loading]](http://www.toyday.co.uk/shop/images/uploads/maracas1.jpg) for after you 1a, hands off keyboard and celebrate! that's why i play protoss, zerg is way too hard and u can't 1a seige tanks
How am i supposed to warp in units with that keyboard?
|
On August 11 2011 12:28 Mobius wrote:
In BroodWar protoss was definitely the easiest race to play until you hit that C+ish level, then after that protoss gets insanely hard ahah
I didnt think this carried onto Starcraft 2 though... I think zerg is easiest to play in sc2, but might just be because my offraces in bw were terrible.
yes zerg is the easiest to play unlike what other people says. Even if you miss your inject you can still mass up a ton of army/drones in a short period of time. People with low apm that play zergs die to 4/6 gates easily and they blame tosses are easy.how many times have zerg players reach 1k resources and they just simply spend it all in a second?
|
On August 11 2011 12:24 Jacob666 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 05:10 Lewan72 wrote:
I hate it when people say Protoss is 1a move attack win. Protoss requires the MOST micro out of any race. If anything ZERG is a 1a move attack win race (not trying to diss on zerg, zerg is still hard and you have to macro very good). And then they say Protoss is then OP when we have the lowest winrate.
Yay i play zerg and i agree that zerg has the least amount of micro in a battle, i used to feel insulted when i heard people say this but now i have come to realized that i just want it to change, i dont want to be look at my hatchery making units the entire time instead of putting down rows of FF and storms or spliting my marine and stutter steping like a pro.
Well you get fungal growth micro (kind of), and ZvZs feels like a lot of micro in my opinion (especially when baneling ling vs baneling ling)
|
On August 11 2011 12:33 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 12:28 Vore210 wrote:On August 11 2011 12:22 Applesmack wrote:On August 11 2011 12:21 lyAsakura wrote:On August 11 2011 12:14 sickle wrote:
If protoss is so easy to play then why isn't the gsl dominated by them? Instead of that we have endless TvTvTvTs? Easy to play doesn't mean they're better... Protoss in BW is commonly accepted as the easiest to play race but protoss as a race has significantly less titles and usually very few top players. That makes no sense though. Why does protoss have very few top players if its so easy? You saying players will deliberately make it "harder" for themselves or something? I somehow doubt that. People say protoss is the easiest all the time yet at the top levels they often the ones doing the worst. Skill caps. Given that protoss are lacking a harass unit (which will be adressed in HoTS) they don't have quite the variance in play or multi pronged attacks (except by things like DTs, but they can be nullified without counter-micro). This makes a difference in overall play. Protoss units are also amazing when massed up, but in small numbers they can be picked off by things like speedlings or a medivac full of MM. Generally things like improving constantly on your micro, map awareness and harassment can take you further as Z or T than P due to P's lack of options in that area. Is there any indication of the harassment issue being addressed in HOTS, or are you simply making an optimistic assumption?
There was an interview with Mr Browder where he said toss will get a harassing option in HotS. It's pretty ridiculous without one atm. I mean, terran can drop a few blue-flame hellions in the mineral line and roast 30 probes. A zerg can drop banelings. What does toss have?
|
Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
|
Most of the argument of why protoss is easier is based around the idea that protoss has less to do through the early game. There is little to no harass that is possible before tier 3 and most non all-in pushes protoss have involve tier 3 units.
The major flaw in this logic is that the goal of the game isn't to "do stuff", it's to win. Zerg GET to spread creep and inject for massive macro. Terran GET to scan and do creative drop play. While these things may be harder on the player, the fact that a race has these options makes the game EASIER to win when played properly.
I'm not saying protoss are bad, it's just that all protoss play is a variation on the same game plan. The extreme immobility of the death ball (the same speed as hydras off creep and even slower with templar) combined with the lack of pre tier 3 harass basically limits play to
1) survive
2) push for win/lose
*given equally skilled play of course. Player skill is always the #1 determining factor in victory.
tl/dr : I believe the real sentiment towards protoss is that it has the simplest game planning but the more rational observers realize this is actually an obstacle to victory at any reasonable level of play and probably accounts for protoss having the lowest win rates.
|
|
|
On August 11 2011 12:39 Joey Wheeler wrote:
Protoss have an in-game map editor that takes much more micro from the other 2 races to prevent, while taking minimal micro to use from the Protoss. Early game relies on this simplistic spell. By midgame your prime aim is to mass up units and do a timing push (f click f click f click a click). Otherwise you expand and build up a deathball, which varies from (aclick fclick) to (aclick fclick tclick).
Protoss takes minimal micro, has the easiest and a forgiving macro mechanic, and has the entire strategy revolve around making a big ball of units, because they are the most efficient in the game.
In before some ignorant platinum league fuck tells me "if u turtle and make a ball u lose". Turtling and making a ball is agreed upon by the pros to be the best way to play. Look at Huk's PvZ, it's either timing pushes or getting a shitload of units and aclicking with them. And no, blink stalkers are not hard to micro.
You do realise that the entire protoss army is weak and relies on perfect ffs to be some-what effective. Tell me, how are ffs gonna save you from 3-pronged mm drops?
|
On August 11 2011 05:15 oskarla wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 05:12 DannyJ wrote:
Macro is obviously the easiest, there's less ways to flat out die, A-moving is far more successful compared to other races. Macro is actually easiest with zerg imo. Larva stacks so if you miss using it it saves up unlike for Protoss or Terran. I think decision making is hardest fro Zerg and easiest for Protoss and micro is obviously hardest for Protoss. Terran is kind of a middle ground with hard macro and prettyb easy micro. Terran definately needs most multitasking tho and Protoss needs kind of little of that.
Zerg has to be using their macro mechanic to get the larva to do that. Even when larva is stockpiled, Queens still need to inject to go over 3 per hatch.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
