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Why is protoss considered to be the "easiest race" - Page 28

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ThaZenith
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada3116 Posts
August 11 2011 03:08 GMT
#541
You don't need big macro, or big micro. Just stick the zealots in front and A-move, gg yo-z.

Keep in mind this only applies at low level play, which I'm assuming everyone is talking about. ^^
The KY
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom6252 Posts
August 11 2011 03:09 GMT
#542
On August 11 2011 11:46 quiet noise wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2011 11:43 The KY wrote:
On August 11 2011 11:38 hiturheartx wrote:
i dont care if people think toss is the easiest race, but i think terran players should understand that their race is the most ridiculous right now

1. blue flame hellions.
2. flying dts
3. fkin dropship healers
4. MULEs. i once watched tourney or something.. and the terran killed off most of his SCVs late game and started massing OCs. the commentators said it was a legit tactic.. 'MULE economy' seriously. i face palmed at how ridiculous this race is when i heard those 2 words.


I remember Kennigit once saying on SOTG that he'd like to show people what TL would be like sans moderation for a while to show them why moderation is so strict here.

Is this that? It's time to nuke this thread.


oh my, people actually bring up valid points and obvious flaws in the game balance? hit them with the ban hammer! show no mercy. NOONE points out obvious game design flaws on my watch!

care to explain to me how terran having flying DTs with range that actually works well as an addition to your army DESPITE your opponent having detection (unlike DTS) makes any sense? or are you just gonna sidestep any kind of argument by making another "peole wo discuss balance r st00pid the game is fine stfu"-post?


Yes. Shut the fuck up, the game is fine, balance whine is retarded, go back to b.net forums.

Anything I missed?
Deleted User 183001
Profile Joined May 2011
2939 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-11 03:09:54
August 11 2011 03:09 GMT
#543
Well, once upon a time, Terrans and Zergs didn't know how to counter Colossi. Now that they do, I don't see who is complaining or saying Protoss is easy. It's actually very difficult to play Protoss, like the other races, especially since they don't really have good harass until the late-game, and generally can't put on heavy, non-all-in assaults until Tier 3. Because of that, Protoss has to stay back except when pressuring or all-inning until they reach the heavy hitters.

If the Korean stats say anything, like what ctuchik posted a couple months ago, Protoss is pretty bad in Korea. I don't know, but that's the sort of indication that Protoss isn't really easy to play.
Lowell
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany346 Posts
August 11 2011 03:11 GMT
#544
On August 11 2011 11:44 dukem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2011 09:08 Shooks wrote:
Another thread with bronze level players commenting, sigh...
People talking about Protoss macro as if it's easy when we're the only race that can't really build units while micro'ing, people talking about how it's also easy to make gates, what? Terran have to make rax's, not much difference...

Point is, this thread is pointless, I wasn't lying when I said bronze level players, it's quite obvious the majority of the people posting have never even played at a high level if they think Protoss is A-moving race when that will get demolished by a MMM army with emp or an infestor based zerg army, Protoss is the most unforgiving race in terms of micro.

It also depends of which matchups, TvP is by far the most 1 dimensional matchup in the game, most top Terrans agree that it's a simple matchup for Terran.


And the most forgiving race in terms of macro after micro goes to shit.


I do not think that any race is consideribly easier/harder/stronger whatever than other, cause theres no reason to and everyone i've heard on the topic so far was "uhh my race is the worst and hardest and the other 2 are sooooo ez", but you're still talking bullshit.

In terms of the actual macro mechanics warp-ins are the least forgiving, if you miss a warp in u don't get it back and you can't queue. After that comes robo/stargate and Terran production, same as warp in, but with queuing. The most forgiving is larvae, you don't have to instantly spend it.
For the secondary macro mechanics injects are by faaaaaaar the least forgiving, probably making Zerg the hardest race to macro, but idk cause i've never really played Zerg. Mules are the most forgiving cause you can throw them all down if you missed some, not saying that this is optimal for Terran. Chronoboosts are a little less forgiving than Mules, you can spend them later if you missed them, but you can't use multiple Chronos on the same building.
Thats the fact, face it.

I am a low level player whos played Terran in Diamond and now plays Toss in Plat, working my way up. I had the same Problems with both races, if ive had to say something i'd say that Toss macro is a little harder for me and Terran micro was more challenging, but thats personal feelings and reaaaally minor difference.
Every balance discussion there is from non pros is ridiculous anyway, I really really dont get why people have to blame everything else, but themselves for losses, it's absolutely pathetic.

(Of course i am saying that there is no such thing as imbalance, or that things like the reaper pre nerf or beta roaches cant be pointed out, but simply whining at this point is unnecessary and won't help anything.)
Agh
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States928 Posts
August 11 2011 03:11 GMT
#545
If it hasn't already been said a lot of it is just stigma carried over from sc1. Where protoss was the 'easiest' to play, but arguably the worst race overall. But foreigners in general were so terrible that it just kind of played off that way.
I may appear to be an emotionless sarcastic pos, but just like an onion when you pull off more and more layers you find the exact same thing everytime and you start crying
Vore210
Profile Joined January 2011
Ireland256 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-11 03:14:39
August 11 2011 03:12 GMT
#546
On August 11 2011 11:40 quiet noise wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2011 11:37 Applesmack wrote:
On August 11 2011 11:30 Trang wrote:
On August 11 2011 09:30 Shooks wrote:
On August 11 2011 09:21 grobo wrote:
On August 11 2011 09:08 Shooks wrote:
Another thread with bronze level players commenting, sigh...
People talking about Protoss macro as if it's easy when we're the only race that can't really build units while micro'ing, people talking about how it's also easy to make gates, what? Terran have to make rax's, not much difference...

Point is, this thread is pointless, I wasn't lying when I said bronze level players, it's quite obvious the majority of the people posting have never even played at a high level if they think Protoss is A-moving race when that will get demolished by a MMM army with emp or an infestor based zerg army, Protoss is the most unforgiving race in terms of micro.

It also depends of which matchups, TvP is by far the most 1 dimensional matchup in the game, most top Terrans agree that it's a simple matchup for Terran.


With that sentence i can now conclude that you are one of those bronze players you speak of. Toss has the toughest units in the entire game. As a zerg an entire control group of lings get roasted in a second to hellions if you look away at the wrong moment, an infinite number of mutas gets destroyed to a thor volley if you missmicro, huge groups of marines perish to two fungals. Nothing in a Toss army dies that quickly to anything.

Now i play random so i don't care which race is easiest or hardest, but one thing is definitely true, as a toss you don't have to babysit your units like you have to with Z/T.


Not being able to admit Protoss is the most unforgiving race blows my mind. I mean watching Yigioh play Thorzain the other day, can you honestly say that you need to baby sit units as zerg? Infact it's the complete opposite, the only units you need to babysit is the Mutas, and it's a fast flying units....Not exactly that hard if you have good APM. Like shit, I've vsed Zerg's that have just right clicked my Nexus with a bunch of roaches and lose them all then be able to make a ton more since there so cheap

Since when is getting all your lings roasted gonna cost you the game, it can in the early game, but so does missing an FF on the ramp, durp.

Saying Protoss units are tough is stupid, we get caught off guard and get fungal'd and we can lose them game right there, we get an Obs sniped and cloaked ghosts emp the sentrys and HTs, we lose, we get our collosi out of position and get sniped by vikings we lose, we miss FFs we lose, we have an HT based army against Terran and most of them get EMP'd we lose, the list goes on and on.


I am not saying that Protoss is easier (I think this thread is a minefield really), but come on, let's be fair here. You're saying P loses if P gets EMP'd, misses FFs and so on. Sure that's true. But that isn't a fair basis for saying that P is the most unforgiving race. You're putting up a properly micro'd army against a non-micro'd army. No matter what the matchup, assuming comparable armies, the army with proper micro will always win against the army with no micro (I include setting up proper defensive positions, eg tank seiging, as micro). T and Z would lose too if their army gets stormed and feedbacked while they aren't watching.



I also LOL at people saying protoss macro is easier. How is it easier exactly? Both P and T build units from their structures. Protoss has chrono and T has mule/scans (which I think is better). Both terran and protoss make their units from basically 3 structures: stargate/port, fac/robo/, gateway/rax. They basically identical in macro skill.


Yep, and Zerg builds everything from 1 building and therefor doesnt need to add new facilities to increase production. Also, its cool if you slack on your macro for a minute because your larvae stacks up.

Zerg has by far the easiest macro imo.


Injects. Fall behind on them and you die, that's why people say zerg macro is hard. Well that and the multiple base management and having to deal with harassment when you're so spread out.

The reason people say protoss macro is easier is because chrono boost and warp gate mechanics are very forgiving if you mess up. You can remake a very cost effective army quickly, churn out upgrades quicker than other races (so you can hit timings better) and have units such as the observer which are a permanent eye on the opponents army/base (sans detection of course, but that goes without saying). If you get dropped, you also have the warp in mechanic to defend when your army is far away. You can also be lazy and just sit back and macro on 3 bases, if your opponent isn't aggressive while using multi-pronged attacks to snipe tech, you will build up a very hard to stop death ball (when managed properly).

I've played all 3 races. Terran the most and the journey to diamond was a straightforward one but I had to work for it. I then played protoss for a while and reached diamond level very quickly (about 10% of the games I played as terran). Lastly I played zerg for a bit, and while mid to endgame they felt unstoppable the early game all-ins and pressure builds were a pain in the ass. Think im around high plat level with zerg though i'm pretty sure I played more games as Z than P.

When playing protoss it just feels more relaxing as well. You can stop the vast majority of cheese (or any weird strategy you haven't seen before) by making a forge and cannons. This is opposed to the various drone cutting times and particular unit comps or spine/spore crawler timing as zerg, or the build order changes/unit comp changes that terran needs to do. I've known people with "ladder anxiety" which goes away when they play P.

As a closing point however, it's not as if it doesn't take skill to play protoss at a high level. Seeing someone like MC play shows it. But it is a more relaxing, 1a'ing kind of army with a fantastic mix of units and great ability to reinforce/rebuild armies in the late game while also having pretty awesome tech. It's also got the widest range of effective cheese of any race (terran obviously has the best all-in's, zerg is kinda lacking in both) which can net free wins, and cements the view of the relaxing race to play at a lower level. I'm not going to pretend I know anything about protoss in masters/grandmasters.
Light a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett
SilentCrono
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States1420 Posts
August 11 2011 03:13 GMT
#547
1a
forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield

oh no i lost my entire army! good thing i can warp in a new one in 3 seconds
♞ Your soul will forever be lost in the void of a horse. ♞
Radipon
Profile Joined September 2010
United States47 Posts
August 11 2011 03:13 GMT
#548
map editing is a legitimate skill, ask the iccup people
My goose is getting cooked!
sickle
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
New Zealand656 Posts
August 11 2011 03:14 GMT
#549
If protoss is so easy to play then why isn't the gsl dominated by them? Instead of that we have endless TvTvTvTs?
Makura
Profile Joined December 2010
United States317 Posts
August 11 2011 03:14 GMT
#550
I would suppose the stereotype comes from how often the games are played as 2-3 base turtle or 1 base cheese play. Zerg is perceived to require more macro and enormous map presence with counters with the weaker but generally faster units. Terran is considered harder i suppose because of the capacity for intense micro (i suppose).

Id say no race is easy, just races suit players more. Just dont pay heed to people who tell you that your race was easy, you deserve your wins :D
SHOW THEM WHAT THE CATFISH COMBO IS ALL ABOUT!
Applesmack
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada680 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-11 03:15:51
August 11 2011 03:15 GMT
#551
On August 11 2011 12:13 SilentCrono wrote:
1a
forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield

oh no i lost my entire army! good thing i can warp in a new one in 3 seconds


You so smart.Though I think there are supposed to be some storms in there as well if you use HT's.
ForeverSleep
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada920 Posts
August 11 2011 03:16 GMT
#552
easiness of one race or another in only an illusion. People that play one race will be as bad with another race, whether they think it or not. Most of the time, the people that complain are bnet forum retards who usually are gold rank, but think they are good because they are rank 1 gold 4vf4 league, as they are 13 years old in most case. play your game, dont care about the others.
"Life is what happens to you while you’re busy making other plans" - John Lennon
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
August 11 2011 03:18 GMT
#553
On August 11 2011 12:01 EliteReplay wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2011 11:38 figq wrote:
Average APM by race from 1128 replays at semi-pro and pro level at MLG Columbus 2011:
[image loading]
APM isn't a very important measure, but still I thought this could be interesting stats to check out.

Keep in mind though, that landing a perfect storm, or perfect forcefields, counts very little to the number of actions, and yet, it's more difficult than building 40 lings/rines and running them around.


Terran and Zerg have more apm because the action when producing units are taking into count
when u press W and warping units that doest count. but if protoss as to manually produce units apm will be arround 190-220 for protoss.

Plus Terran and Zerg are always moving arround their units while protoss need to play defensive = less apm.
It counts actions such as "Train Stalker (Warp gate)". About your other point, I agree.
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
lyAsakura
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States1414 Posts
August 11 2011 03:21 GMT
#554
On August 11 2011 12:14 sickle wrote:
If protoss is so easy to play then why isn't the gsl dominated by them? Instead of that we have endless TvTvTvTs?


Easy to play doesn't mean they're better... Protoss in BW is commonly accepted as the easiest to play race but protoss as a race has significantly less titles and usually very few top players.
WeMade FOX would be a deadly SC2 team.
Sc2ttyl
Profile Joined October 2010
United States245 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-11 03:23:10
August 11 2011 03:21 GMT
#555
Everyone knows toss is easiest, stop wasting our time with these awful posts.
yo
Applesmack
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada680 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-11 03:23:37
August 11 2011 03:22 GMT
#556
On August 11 2011 12:21 lyAsakura wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2011 12:14 sickle wrote:
If protoss is so easy to play then why isn't the gsl dominated by them? Instead of that we have endless TvTvTvTs?


Easy to play doesn't mean they're better... Protoss in BW is commonly accepted as the easiest to play race but protoss as a race has significantly less titles and usually very few top players.


That makes no sense though. Why does protoss have very few top players if its so easy? You saying players will deliberately make it "harder" for themselves or something? I somehow doubt that.

People say protoss is the easiest all the time yet at the top levels they often the ones doing the worst.
Dfgj
Profile Joined May 2008
Singapore5922 Posts
August 11 2011 03:23 GMT
#557
On August 11 2011 12:13 SilentCrono wrote:
1a
forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield forcefield

oh no i lost my entire army! good thing i can warp in a new one in 3 seconds

Barring the forcefield thing, I think this applies a lot more to Zerg :p
Jacob666
Profile Joined January 2011
United States285 Posts
August 11 2011 03:24 GMT
#558
On August 11 2011 05:10 Lewan72 wrote:
I hate it when people say Protoss is 1a move attack win. Protoss requires the MOST micro out of any race. If anything ZERG is a 1a move attack win race (not trying to diss on zerg, zerg is still hard and you have to macro very good). And then they say Protoss is then OP when we have the lowest winrate.
Yay


i play zerg and i agree that zerg has the least amount of micro in a battle, i used to feel insulted when i heard people say this but now i have come to realized that i just want it to change, i dont want to be look at my hatchery making units the entire time instead of putting down rows of FF and storms or spliting my marine and stutter steping like a pro.
EnderCraft
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-11 03:29:48
August 11 2011 03:25 GMT
#559
Oh another unexplored aspect of toss in this thread is the issue of tech. I find that teching as protoss is a lot more of an investment than teching as zerg or terran. As a terran, you almost always will have a starport or factory readily at your disposal. In addition, the add-on mechanic makes it easier for a terran to adapt to any situation if need be. If a protoss wants to get detection they must either build a forge or robotics facility followed by the observer or cannon. A terran can just swap a techlab onto his Starport and make a raven Terran buildings just synergize so much better than toss buildings... Building a stargate really puts a damper on your t1 unit production for the early game. If you don't do damage with stargate units, you lose. Starports are always useful throughout the game. Even if a banshee opening fails, they can still swap on a reactor and make medivacs or vikings. Toss are basically stuck with a useless tech structure unless they're going heavy phoenix. Which like I said, really hurts your overall army power early game.

Zerg on the other hand is a little less forgiving when teching. However, I believe an infestation pit only costs 100/100 to make one of the best spell casters in the game. Toss needs to invest in a twilight council, a templar archives, AND STORM! Infestors start with all their abilities except neural parasite and can get khadarin amulet.

So in a tech sense, protoss is by far the hardest to tech with and the other races are a lot more forgiving.

SC:BW has a higher skill ceiling than SC2? SC 64 is where it's at brah.
sickle
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
New Zealand656 Posts
August 11 2011 03:26 GMT
#560
On August 11 2011 12:21 lyAsakura wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2011 12:14 sickle wrote:
If protoss is so easy to play then why isn't the gsl dominated by them? Instead of that we have endless TvTvTvTs?


Easy to play doesn't mean they're better... Protoss in BW is commonly accepted as the easiest to play race but protoss as a race has significantly less titles and usually very few top players.


That's why I agree that at low-levels toss is easier to play. But at higher-levels I think it's definitely the hardest.
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