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On August 11 2011 11:25 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 11:12 PopcornColonel wrote:On August 11 2011 09:46 ZAiNs wrote:On August 11 2011 09:25 grobo wrote:On August 11 2011 09:23 GoKu` wrote:
everyone thinks their race is the hardest to play. That is usually how these topics / ideas get started. How do you explain the opinions of us random players? You probably think random is the hardest. Nah, Zerg is the hardest. Random is the most fun though ^^ Funny, Zerg is the once race that is underrepresented in the lower leagues (Gold-Bronze). Most Zerg players are either platinum or higher. Statisticly, Zerg players are higher in league and rank standing than protoss and terran. Kinda denies the "Zerg is the hardest race to play"-myth.
anyone who plays zerg is inherently smarter thus gets a higher league. if you dont see this you're a fucking retard
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lol he was giving examples of builds to try not the standard builds of the obvious 4 gate.... trying to do things to counter it~~~ please learn how to read intent instead of reading what you want to read
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imo, Protoss is the easiest race to hit diamond. Terran is the easiest race to hit masters... especially now. I do think Protoss is under powered in diamond and up leagues, of course also pro level of plays. But the game is pretty balanced I say.
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On August 11 2011 11:22 Darclite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 11:18 Phemtos wrote:
Warpgate is easier to use then having to constantly queue up units into production building without missing a beat, I don't think anyone would argue about that. They're essentially the same thing, the only difference is that you go 4aaaadddd, and the protoss goes double tap 6 (proxy pylon)W, S,click,S,click,S,click,Z,click,Zclick,Zclick. Also, you can't queue warpgates. So you are essentially making an argument out of something petty (my making of units is harder than your making of units), but your petty argument is wrong. Nice work. Go back to Bnet.
I'm talking during early/mid game because when you reach late game you can queue 2-3 units on the same production facility and not have it hurt your economy but during the early/mid game you don't want to queue more then 1 unit per building usually unless you get supplied blocked so doing that while never missing a beat is in my opinion a bit harder then just staring at the bottom right of your screen to see when your cooldown for instant units is up. The only thing protoss need to queue in PvT is worth 6 supply.
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On August 11 2011 11:22 ribboo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 11:17 dar5283 wrote:I noticed on the first page, someone said Protoss have the lowest winrate. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/mlg-anaheim-sc2-stats/Stats from MLG Anaheim. These stats actually include the number of players in each race, which is fairly equal. The other chart from Korean tournaments is SOOOO flawed. No total number of players for each race, and we all know Terrans run Korea. So look at the international one? http://i.imgur.com/uaVuw.png20.000 games beat a couple of hundreds when it comes to statistics, any day.
Those games were from ladder?
The ladder that includes leagues like bronze/silver/gold/plat/low-mid masters?
How many players tell you ladder is for trying out different builds, etc.
I've watched numerous streams, where the streamer is talking about how he should be taking ladder more serious, etc.
Bring me tournament statistics where all races have same number of players, with the same level of skill(or something very close), that shows Protoss struggling. Please, please show me.
There are a very small number of Protoss' in tournaments recently, and when they don't do well, people don't even take into consideration all the other factors that make a genuine stat sheet.
People who are going to argue with their only piece of information is a stat sheet with SOOOOOOOOOOO many flaws, need to take a basic stat class, and learn some things.
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On August 11 2011 09:30 Shooks wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 09:21 grobo wrote:On August 11 2011 09:08 Shooks wrote:
Another thread with bronze level players commenting, sigh...
People talking about Protoss macro as if it's easy when we're the only race that can't really build units while micro'ing, people talking about how it's also easy to make gates, what? Terran have to make rax's, not much difference...
Point is, this thread is pointless, I wasn't lying when I said bronze level players, it's quite obvious the majority of the people posting have never even played at a high level if they think Protoss is A-moving race when that will get demolished by a MMM army with emp or an infestor based zerg army, Protoss is the most unforgiving race in terms of micro.
It also depends of which matchups, TvP is by far the most 1 dimensional matchup in the game, most top Terrans agree that it's a simple matchup for Terran. With that sentence i can now conclude that you are one of those bronze players you speak of. Toss has the toughest units in the entire game. As a zerg an entire control group of lings get roasted in a second to hellions if you look away at the wrong moment, an infinite number of mutas gets destroyed to a thor volley if you missmicro, huge groups of marines perish to two fungals. Nothing in a Toss army dies that quickly to anything. Now i play random so i don't care which race is easiest or hardest, but one thing is definitely true, as a toss you don't have to babysit your units like you have to with Z/T. Not being able to admit Protoss is the most unforgiving race blows my mind. I mean watching Yigioh play Thorzain the other day, can you honestly say that you need to baby sit units as zerg? Infact it's the complete opposite, the only units you need to babysit is the Mutas, and it's a fast flying units....Not exactly that hard if you have good APM. Like shit, I've vsed Zerg's that have just right clicked my Nexus with a bunch of roaches and lose them all then be able to make a ton more since there so cheap Since when is getting all your lings roasted gonna cost you the game, it can in the early game, but so does missing an FF on the ramp, durp. Saying Protoss units are tough is stupid, we get caught off guard and get fungal'd and we can lose them game right there, we get an Obs sniped and cloaked ghosts emp the sentrys and HTs, we lose, we get our collosi out of position and get sniped by vikings we lose, we miss FFs we lose, we have an HT based army against Terran and most of them get EMP'd we lose, the list goes on and on.
I am not saying that Protoss is easier (I think this thread is a minefield really), but come on, let's be fair here. You're saying P loses if P gets EMP'd, misses FFs and so on. Sure that's true. But that isn't a fair basis for saying that P is the most unforgiving race. You're putting up a properly micro'd army against a non-micro'd army. No matter what the matchup, assuming comparable armies, the army with proper micro will always win against the army with no micro (I include setting up proper defensive positions, eg tank seiging, as micro). T and Z would lose too if their army gets stormed and feedbacked while they aren't watching.
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this thread just gave me braincancer, never seen a thread so stacked with gold leaguers
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I love when zergs say protoss is easy, then i ask if you want to switch races and I still beat them. I think at high levels all races are equally hard to play. I do agree that it takes protoss the least amount of time from bronze -> diamond imo
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On August 11 2011 10:59 Chronald wrote:
You trolling?
No warn? Nothing?
Wow.
On topic...
Protoss is not the easiest race. There is no easiest race. The race is only as hard to play as you make it. Sure you could 4gate every game, and that is easy. Just like Terran can 6 rax marine and Zerg and 6 pool. Cheese is cheese, it is 'easy' no matter what race you are.
Saying you can just 1a protoss armies is stupid and ignorant. Try playing above Copper level (yes I mean Copper, the league that was below bronze and doesn't exist anymore) and you will see that without micro-ing your army you lose almost every game.
IMO Terran is the easiest race. A wall you can lower, simple army tactics (stim, stutter), siege tanks, viable drops, MULEs, etc. Terran is obviously the easiest to play, or Blizzard wouldn't have given them out as the free race.
What? Be careful not to be so contradictory.
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On August 11 2011 11:26 Pervect wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 11:25 quiet noise wrote:On August 11 2011 11:12 PopcornColonel wrote:On August 11 2011 09:46 ZAiNs wrote:On August 11 2011 09:25 grobo wrote:On August 11 2011 09:23 GoKu` wrote:
everyone thinks their race is the hardest to play. That is usually how these topics / ideas get started. How do you explain the opinions of us random players? You probably think random is the hardest. Nah, Zerg is the hardest. Random is the most fun though ^^ Funny, Zerg is the once race that is underrepresented in the lower leagues (Gold-Bronze). Most Zerg players are either platinum or higher. Statisticly, Zerg players are higher in league and rank standing than protoss and terran. Kinda denies the "Zerg is the hardest race to play"-myth. anyone who plays zerg is inherently smarter thus gets a higher league. if you dont see this you're a fucking retard
I agree. if you dont see why zerg is the best race to play at the moment, you are pretty stupid. Why would anyone play protoss, lol?
<.<
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On August 11 2011 11:24 darthfoley wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 11:18 CCupcakeDyran wrote:On August 11 2011 11:13 The KY wrote:On August 11 2011 11:08 CCupcakeDyran wrote:On August 11 2011 11:04 Phemtos wrote:On August 11 2011 11:00 The KY wrote:On August 11 2011 10:56 Phemtos wrote:On August 11 2011 10:44 iChau wrote:
When you get out of bronze, try blinking back hurt stalkers while macroing with warpgates, kk? Ok you try queueing up your units nonstop without missing a beat while kiting the protoss army, spreading your bio and getting good emp off all the while microing the vikings so they all focus on the same colossus. Ok this is just ridiculous now. Go back to the b.net forums with this kind of 'HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY EXTENDED LIST OF THINGS I HAVE TO DO TO WIN, HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY SHORTENED LIST OF THING YOU HAVE TO DO TO WIN, SEE HOW MUCH HARDER IT IS FOR ME WITH MY CLEARLY AND OBVIOUSLY BIASED DESCRIPTIONS OF THE GAME' bullshit. Seriously. This doesn't belong here. Alright then please do explain me what else does a protoss need to do beside getting good Storm/FF off to win a big engagement. Go try and A move a max terran army bio against a max protoss army with a good amount of colossus without either of them being micro'd and tell me who win. Terran simply has to work more against HTS/chargelot or Colossus based army to win the battle. Why would you ever go heavy bio against a colossus based army anyway? Terran has tanks. The siege unit with the longest ground attack range in the game. You know, those things that kill Colo really damn fast if you know what focus fire is. ...nah tanks are bad against colossus + gateway armies. Colossus and tanks essentially fill the same role in that match up, the difference is that tanks have to take the time to siege and the colossus can just ball around, making you incredibly immobile in a matchup where mobility is key, if they die they take fucking ages to rebuild, immortals utterly destroy them...there's a reason very very few people use tanks in TvP. That's weird. I usually just spread them out and have some vikings around to help snipe colo. And it usually works out for me. It's all in the positioning and making sure you're not unsieged when you engage, IMO. That's true, but chargelots and immortals can still do insane dmg when they just charge tanks.
I totally agree, dude. I play P/Z but I used to be a random. But if you have a good stutter step micro, you can at least keep the chargelots/immorts back until your tanks/vikings snipe some colo.
In all honesty, I kinda try to treat colo like banelings on crack. (Marine splits, tank spread, good stim micro, etc)
But to stay on topic, if you've played P enough and then you switched to Z or T, then playing XvP is so easy.
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On August 11 2011 11:30 dar5283 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 11:22 ribboo wrote:On August 11 2011 11:17 dar5283 wrote:I noticed on the first page, someone said Protoss have the lowest winrate. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/mlg-anaheim-sc2-stats/Stats from MLG Anaheim. These stats actually include the number of players in each race, which is fairly equal. The other chart from Korean tournaments is SOOOO flawed. No total number of players for each race, and we all know Terrans run Korea. So look at the international one? http://i.imgur.com/uaVuw.png20.000 games beat a couple of hundreds when it comes to statistics, any day. Those games were from ladder? The ladder that includes leagues like bronze/silver/gold/plat/low-mid masters? How many players tell you ladder is for trying out different builds, etc. I've watched numerous streams, where the streamer is talking about how he should be taking ladder more serious, etc. Bring me tournament statistics where all races have same number of players, with the same level of skill(or something very close), that shows Protoss struggling. Please, please show me. There are a very small number of Protoss' in tournaments recently, and when they don't do well, people don't even take into consideration all the other factors that make a genuine stat sheet. People who are going to argue with their only piece of information is a stat sheet with SOOOOOOOOOOO many flaws, need to take a basic stat class, and learn some things.
That is tournament results. You can look for yourself what tournaments they put in there. It's by far the most valid statistics we have. -.-
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international
Or.. go read the thread.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252090
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see if this was bw, i would have said that we have the tankiest units, and thus required the least amount of micro to use effectively (hence 1a2a3a). however, given that is no longer the case, i cant really say why...
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On August 11 2011 11:28 chesshaha wrote:
imo, Protoss is the easiest race to hit diamond. Terran is the easiest race to hit masters... especially now. I do think Protoss is under powered in diamond and up leagues, of course also pro level of plays. But the game is pretty balanced I say.
statisticly, Zerg has less players in gold-bronze and more in platinum-grand master. kinda points in the opposite direction
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On August 11 2011 11:18 Phemtos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 11:09 The KY wrote:On August 11 2011 11:04 Phemtos wrote:On August 11 2011 11:00 The KY wrote:On August 11 2011 10:56 Phemtos wrote:On August 11 2011 10:44 iChau wrote:
When you get out of bronze, try blinking back hurt stalkers while macroing with warpgates, kk? Ok you try queueing up your units nonstop without missing a beat while kiting the protoss army, spreading your bio and getting good emp off all the while microing the vikings so they all focus on the same colossus. Ok this is just ridiculous now. Go back to the b.net forums with this kind of 'HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY EXTENDED LIST OF THINGS I HAVE TO DO TO WIN, HERE IS A PURPOSEFULLY SHORTENED LIST OF THING YOU HAVE TO DO TO WIN, SEE HOW MUCH HARDER IT IS FOR ME WITH MY CLEARLY AND OBVIOUSLY BIASED DESCRIPTIONS OF THE GAME' bullshit. Seriously. This doesn't belong here. Alright then please do explain me what else does a protoss need to do beside getting good Storm/FF off to win a big engagement. Go try and A move a max terran army bio against a max protoss army with a good amount of colossus without either of them being micro'd and tell me who win. Terran simply has to work more against HTS/chargelot or Colossus based army to win the battle. You know what? NO. I'm not going to explain to you each individual piece of micro that every race has to pull off. Because that's what balance whining children do, on the b.net forums. If you are one of those people, PLEASE, go back there. Go back a couple of your posts. You say that you have to get off a good EMP or you're dead. Ok. But then you say all protoss has to do is get off good storm and ff...can you seriously not see how fucking blinded you are by bias? Why is that so easy for them but so hard for you? I guarantee you if you played protoss you'd be saying 'all terran has to do is get off one good EMP and my super expensive ht's are useless'. FYI I play terran 75%, protoss 25%. Please try PvT some time, enjoy losing to MMM a dozen times in a row. Until then shut up about how hard everything is for you. Warpgate is easier to use then having to constantly queue up units into production building without missing a beat, I don't think anyone would argue about that. Alright take out the emp/ff/storm of the battle and tell me which of the two army has more action that need to be done in order to win. A protoss need to put his zealot in the front which is just positionning before the battle and focus the marine with his colossus and focus the vikings with his stalker. A terran need to spread his army so it doesn't get destroyed by the colossus aoe and has to kite the chargelot and focus each colosssus with his vikings. Now tell me which has more action in a battle that need to be done in order for them to win.
Lrn2read, I already said I'm not getting pulled into a pointless and retarded argument about listing minor micro requirements and comparing who has the most.
One thing I will argue is that warpgate is not easier to use. It is so, so easy to go 5aaaaaaddddddgg during a battle. It is much harder to take your eyes off the battle completely, go to a pylon, and warp in the different units you need. You can macro as terran without thinking about it, enough practise and it becomes reflex. But no matter how good you are, with protoss you have to refocus your attention to warp in units.
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On August 11 2011 11:30 Trang wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 09:30 Shooks wrote:On August 11 2011 09:21 grobo wrote:On August 11 2011 09:08 Shooks wrote:
Another thread with bronze level players commenting, sigh...
People talking about Protoss macro as if it's easy when we're the only race that can't really build units while micro'ing, people talking about how it's also easy to make gates, what? Terran have to make rax's, not much difference...
Point is, this thread is pointless, I wasn't lying when I said bronze level players, it's quite obvious the majority of the people posting have never even played at a high level if they think Protoss is A-moving race when that will get demolished by a MMM army with emp or an infestor based zerg army, Protoss is the most unforgiving race in terms of micro.
It also depends of which matchups, TvP is by far the most 1 dimensional matchup in the game, most top Terrans agree that it's a simple matchup for Terran. With that sentence i can now conclude that you are one of those bronze players you speak of. Toss has the toughest units in the entire game. As a zerg an entire control group of lings get roasted in a second to hellions if you look away at the wrong moment, an infinite number of mutas gets destroyed to a thor volley if you missmicro, huge groups of marines perish to two fungals. Nothing in a Toss army dies that quickly to anything. Now i play random so i don't care which race is easiest or hardest, but one thing is definitely true, as a toss you don't have to babysit your units like you have to with Z/T. Not being able to admit Protoss is the most unforgiving race blows my mind. I mean watching Yigioh play Thorzain the other day, can you honestly say that you need to baby sit units as zerg? Infact it's the complete opposite, the only units you need to babysit is the Mutas, and it's a fast flying units....Not exactly that hard if you have good APM. Like shit, I've vsed Zerg's that have just right clicked my Nexus with a bunch of roaches and lose them all then be able to make a ton more since there so cheap Since when is getting all your lings roasted gonna cost you the game, it can in the early game, but so does missing an FF on the ramp, durp. Saying Protoss units are tough is stupid, we get caught off guard and get fungal'd and we can lose them game right there, we get an Obs sniped and cloaked ghosts emp the sentrys and HTs, we lose, we get our collosi out of position and get sniped by vikings we lose, we miss FFs we lose, we have an HT based army against Terran and most of them get EMP'd we lose, the list goes on and on. I am not saying that Protoss is easier (I think this thread is a minefield really), but come on, let's be fair here. You're saying P loses if P gets EMP'd, misses FFs and so on. Sure that's true. But that isn't a fair basis for saying that P is the most unforgiving race. You're putting up a properly micro'd army against a non-micro'd army. No matter what the matchup, assuming comparable armies, the army with proper micro will always win against the army with no micro (I include setting up proper defensive positions, eg tank seiging, as micro). T and Z would lose too if their army gets stormed and feedbacked while they aren't watching.
Except that once again, it is far more difficult to set up the right forcefields and storms then it is to simply stutter step backwards as your vikings slaughter the colossus. Notice how no pro ever messes up their stutter step and easily crushes the protoss army while the protoss pros storm their own zealots due to chasing stutter step, miss forcefields, etc all the time. Even from top caliber code S players. The protoss player only can win if he caught the terran pinned against the wall or he hits insanely good forcefields without getting his sentries EMP'ed (almost impossible).
I also LOL at people saying protoss macro is easier. How is it easier exactly? Both P and T build units from their structures. Protoss has chrono and T has mule/scans (which I think is better). Both terran and protoss make their units from basically 3 structures: stargate/port, fac/robo/, gateway/rax. They basically identical in macro skill.
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i dont care if people think toss is the easiest race, but i think terran players should understand that their race is the most ridiculous right now
1. blue flame hellions.
2. flying dts
3. fkin dropship healers
4. MULEs. i once watched tourney or something.. and the terran killed off most of his SCVs late game and started massing OCs. the commentators said it was a legit tactic.. 'MULE economy' seriously. i face palmed at how ridiculous this race is when i heard those 2 words.
no other race has such a diverse use for their army aside from terran. hopefully the expansions fix this.
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Average APM by race from 1128 replays at semi-pro and pro level at MLG Columbus 2011:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6xb9a.png)
APM isn't a very important measure, but still I thought this could be interesting stats to check out.
Keep in mind though, that landing a perfect storm, or perfect forcefields, counts very little to the number of actions, and yet, it's more difficult than building 40 lings/rines and running them around.
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On August 11 2011 11:34 ribboo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 11:30 dar5283 wrote:On August 11 2011 11:22 ribboo wrote:On August 11 2011 11:17 dar5283 wrote:I noticed on the first page, someone said Protoss have the lowest winrate. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/mlg-anaheim-sc2-stats/Stats from MLG Anaheim. These stats actually include the number of players in each race, which is fairly equal. The other chart from Korean tournaments is SOOOO flawed. No total number of players for each race, and we all know Terrans run Korea. So look at the international one? http://i.imgur.com/uaVuw.png20.000 games beat a couple of hundreds when it comes to statistics, any day. Those games were from ladder? The ladder that includes leagues like bronze/silver/gold/plat/low-mid masters? How many players tell you ladder is for trying out different builds, etc. I've watched numerous streams, where the streamer is talking about how he should be taking ladder more serious, etc. Bring me tournament statistics where all races have same number of players, with the same level of skill(or something very close), that shows Protoss struggling. Please, please show me. There are a very small number of Protoss' in tournaments recently, and when they don't do well, people don't even take into consideration all the other factors that make a genuine stat sheet. People who are going to argue with their only piece of information is a stat sheet with SOOOOOOOOOOO many flaws, need to take a basic stat class, and learn some things. It's by far the most valid statistics we have. -.-
What don't you understand about statistics? Like, seriously, do I need to explain this again?
WHERE IS THE NUMBER OF PLAYERS FOR EACH RACE?
Not only that, but some of those stats have 2v2 games from EGMC, LMFAO!!!!
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On August 11 2011 11:37 Applesmack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 11:30 Trang wrote:On August 11 2011 09:30 Shooks wrote:On August 11 2011 09:21 grobo wrote:On August 11 2011 09:08 Shooks wrote:
Another thread with bronze level players commenting, sigh...
People talking about Protoss macro as if it's easy when we're the only race that can't really build units while micro'ing, people talking about how it's also easy to make gates, what? Terran have to make rax's, not much difference...
Point is, this thread is pointless, I wasn't lying when I said bronze level players, it's quite obvious the majority of the people posting have never even played at a high level if they think Protoss is A-moving race when that will get demolished by a MMM army with emp or an infestor based zerg army, Protoss is the most unforgiving race in terms of micro.
It also depends of which matchups, TvP is by far the most 1 dimensional matchup in the game, most top Terrans agree that it's a simple matchup for Terran. With that sentence i can now conclude that you are one of those bronze players you speak of. Toss has the toughest units in the entire game. As a zerg an entire control group of lings get roasted in a second to hellions if you look away at the wrong moment, an infinite number of mutas gets destroyed to a thor volley if you missmicro, huge groups of marines perish to two fungals. Nothing in a Toss army dies that quickly to anything. Now i play random so i don't care which race is easiest or hardest, but one thing is definitely true, as a toss you don't have to babysit your units like you have to with Z/T. Not being able to admit Protoss is the most unforgiving race blows my mind. I mean watching Yigioh play Thorzain the other day, can you honestly say that you need to baby sit units as zerg? Infact it's the complete opposite, the only units you need to babysit is the Mutas, and it's a fast flying units....Not exactly that hard if you have good APM. Like shit, I've vsed Zerg's that have just right clicked my Nexus with a bunch of roaches and lose them all then be able to make a ton more since there so cheap Since when is getting all your lings roasted gonna cost you the game, it can in the early game, but so does missing an FF on the ramp, durp. Saying Protoss units are tough is stupid, we get caught off guard and get fungal'd and we can lose them game right there, we get an Obs sniped and cloaked ghosts emp the sentrys and HTs, we lose, we get our collosi out of position and get sniped by vikings we lose, we miss FFs we lose, we have an HT based army against Terran and most of them get EMP'd we lose, the list goes on and on. I am not saying that Protoss is easier (I think this thread is a minefield really), but come on, let's be fair here. You're saying P loses if P gets EMP'd, misses FFs and so on. Sure that's true. But that isn't a fair basis for saying that P is the most unforgiving race. You're putting up a properly micro'd army against a non-micro'd army. No matter what the matchup, assuming comparable armies, the army with proper micro will always win against the army with no micro (I include setting up proper defensive positions, eg tank seiging, as micro). T and Z would lose too if their army gets stormed and feedbacked while they aren't watching. I also LOL at people saying protoss macro is easier. How is it easier exactly? Both P and T build units from their structures. Protoss has chrono and T has mule/scans (which I think is better). Both terran and protoss make their units from basically 3 structures: stargate/port, fac/robo/, gateway/rax. They basically identical in macro skill.
Yep, and Zerg builds everything from 1 building and therefor doesnt need to add new facilities to increase production. Also, its cool if you slack on your macro for a minute because your larvae stacks up.
Zerg has by far the easiest macro imo.
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EPT
