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There is nothing wrong with a player who masses games being at the same amount of points as an equally skilled player who doesn't.
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I doubt OP has understood the ladder system.
There is no sense in "waiting for bonus pool to fill up".
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On June 30 2011 00:40 shinyA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 00:28 Zephirdd wrote:On June 30 2011 00:19 shinyA wrote:On June 30 2011 00:15 Gnax wrote:On June 30 2011 00:10 Erasme wrote:On June 30 2011 00:04 Gnax wrote:On June 29 2011 23:49 shinyA wrote:On June 29 2011 23:26 Gnax wrote:On June 29 2011 23:22 shinyA wrote:
My problem with bonus pool is that it doesn't motivate players to play more, it only motivates them to play enough to keep their bonus pool low. It doesn't reward mass games, it actually rewards fewer games which shouldn't be the case.
If I play 1000 games in the first month of a ladder reset with a decent win percentage say I have 1500 points. After that month someone else starts laddering, has an inflated bonus pool, will have the same amount of points as me after just 100 games. That doesn't reward or motivate players to play more it actually does the opposite. Wow you're not very good at math. If he starts laddering when you have 1500 points and he has 1500 bonus pool it means he will have 1500 points and 0 bonus pool when you have 1500 points and 1500 bonus pool. Unless you constantly ladder then you will have around 3000 points when he has 1500. Wrong. The numbers I used were figurative and have nothing to do with the point made. There was no math involved in my argument. The bottom line was, I would play 1000 games and be ranked as the same as someone who plays 100 games. During my month of play my bonus pool would have run out long before the end of the month meaning that I wouldn't be gaining near as many points as the person who doesn't start playing until after that month, with a huge bonus pool. I would continue playing even while he's playing still and he will always be equal to my points as long as he keeps abusing the bonus pool and I keep on playing a lot. Why do you keep failing so much? if your bonus pool runs out you already "abused" bonus pool more than the guy who didn't play has. And when he starts playing he "abuses" it the way you already did until he catches up with you. Still wrong. Everybody have the same amount of bp. Even if they start 2months after everyone. Why do you keep failing so much ? Sir. First of all, I was never wrong in this thread, so you can't say I am still wrong. Secondly I have been saying the same thing you just said, so you say I'm wrong and then you echo what I've said. That is probably the ultimate fail right there. No, you're a moron and have been wrong in every post. You keep saying that everyone has the same amount of BP therefore it will even out eventually. But you can't seem to comprehend that when a player plays when he doesn't have bonus pool he hardly gains anything more than he loses. So two players of equal WL% but one plays every day and the other only plays when he has bonus pool, the player who only plays with bonus pool will have the same amount as the guy player every day. SO one player can have 1000 games and be at the same points as someone who only plays out their bonus pool and has 100 games. That, of course, is only true when the gives conditions occur: - All of the games are giving and removing the same amount of points for both players compared - Player A(the one with more games) NEVER gets better/ALWAYS ALWAYS will receive the same points(sry for repeating the first point) - Player B(the one that waits for the bonus pool) NEVER players with 0 bonus The thing is, the system won't work that way. As you get better, ladder starts varying the points. There is a point where you are either receiving +20 pure points a win or you get promoted. In this case, the active player - as he gets better - receives much more points. However, it is indeed true that a player with 100 wins can have the same points as a player with 1000. It is also true that it is more efficient to ladder when you wait for bonus. However, you are also stagnated in the league and won't go up into plat/diamond/masters or whatever, and the active player will improve due to the sheer fact that he is getting more experience, and eventually will get promoted. So, if you want points, play 2 games a day. If you want a promotion, 20 games a day. Yea, you're kinda right. But then what is the point of the ladder? A ladder is supposed to be a competition, points are supposed to be the reflection of the players skill. That isn't the case. Like with my example earlier: RevDime 1,869 437 393 52.65% SolidControL 1,870 151 140 51.89% I bet you those two players are pretty similar in skill and are both ranked in the top 50 masters players in NA. But why should one of them who played 800 games with a higher win % be ranked lower than someone who only played 300 games with a lower win%?
That is not 65% at all. The bonus pool doesnt change anything at 99.9% levels of play, the only time it matters is top 10 ladder where you lose 20+ points for a loss and only win 4 points for a win. In that circumstance there is no reason why you should play without bonus pool because a whole game for 4 points is a waste of time and the risk is too high.
The other time it matters is at rock bottom win trading when no one cares about points anyway because they are icon farming.
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On June 29 2011 23:12 GreEny K wrote:
Last season I tried to play a lot and get to the top, after a while I gave up on that because I didn't have the time. This season I have a 450 bonus pool and have only played about 90-100 games and am sitting at 1k points. I don't really care about the bonus or number of games played. People get better using different techniques and just because someone is at the top with a lot of points and games doesn't make them the best.
Agreed. See Lulush at the top of a couple regions and all the random Chinese players at the top of the ladder. They aren't winning tournaments though so who cares. Also, HuK isn't even GM for what it's worth and he won two major tournaments in a row.
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On June 30 2011 01:49 Uhh Negative wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 23:12 GreEny K wrote:
Last season I tried to play a lot and get to the top, after a while I gave up on that because I didn't have the time. This season I have a 450 bonus pool and have only played about 90-100 games and am sitting at 1k points. I don't really care about the bonus or number of games played. People get better using different techniques and just because someone is at the top with a lot of points and games doesn't make them the best. Agreed. See Lulush at the top of a couple regions and all the random Chinese players at the top of the ladder. They aren't winning tournaments though so who cares. Also, HuK isn't even GM for what it's worth and he won two major tournaments in a row.
He was top 50 GM on the ladder many times, he got knocked out of GM when he was playing in DreamHack and Home Story Cup because his bonus pool exceeded 180.
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On June 30 2011 01:23 VTPerfect wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 00:40 shinyA wrote:On June 30 2011 00:28 Zephirdd wrote:On June 30 2011 00:19 shinyA wrote:On June 30 2011 00:15 Gnax wrote:On June 30 2011 00:10 Erasme wrote:On June 30 2011 00:04 Gnax wrote:On June 29 2011 23:49 shinyA wrote:On June 29 2011 23:26 Gnax wrote:On June 29 2011 23:22 shinyA wrote:
My problem with bonus pool is that it doesn't motivate players to play more, it only motivates them to play enough to keep their bonus pool low. It doesn't reward mass games, it actually rewards fewer games which shouldn't be the case.
If I play 1000 games in the first month of a ladder reset with a decent win percentage say I have 1500 points. After that month someone else starts laddering, has an inflated bonus pool, will have the same amount of points as me after just 100 games. That doesn't reward or motivate players to play more it actually does the opposite. Wow you're not very good at math. If he starts laddering when you have 1500 points and he has 1500 bonus pool it means he will have 1500 points and 0 bonus pool when you have 1500 points and 1500 bonus pool. Unless you constantly ladder then you will have around 3000 points when he has 1500. Wrong. The numbers I used were figurative and have nothing to do with the point made. There was no math involved in my argument. The bottom line was, I would play 1000 games and be ranked as the same as someone who plays 100 games. During my month of play my bonus pool would have run out long before the end of the month meaning that I wouldn't be gaining near as many points as the person who doesn't start playing until after that month, with a huge bonus pool. I would continue playing even while he's playing still and he will always be equal to my points as long as he keeps abusing the bonus pool and I keep on playing a lot. Why do you keep failing so much? if your bonus pool runs out you already "abused" bonus pool more than the guy who didn't play has. And when he starts playing he "abuses" it the way you already did until he catches up with you. Still wrong. Everybody have the same amount of bp. Even if they start 2months after everyone. Why do you keep failing so much ? Sir. First of all, I was never wrong in this thread, so you can't say I am still wrong. Secondly I have been saying the same thing you just said, so you say I'm wrong and then you echo what I've said. That is probably the ultimate fail right there. No, you're a moron and have been wrong in every post. You keep saying that everyone has the same amount of BP therefore it will even out eventually. But you can't seem to comprehend that when a player plays when he doesn't have bonus pool he hardly gains anything more than he loses. So two players of equal WL% but one plays every day and the other only plays when he has bonus pool, the player who only plays with bonus pool will have the same amount as the guy player every day. SO one player can have 1000 games and be at the same points as someone who only plays out their bonus pool and has 100 games. That, of course, is only true when the gives conditions occur: - All of the games are giving and removing the same amount of points for both players compared - Player A(the one with more games) NEVER gets better/ALWAYS ALWAYS will receive the same points(sry for repeating the first point) - Player B(the one that waits for the bonus pool) NEVER players with 0 bonus The thing is, the system won't work that way. As you get better, ladder starts varying the points. There is a point where you are either receiving +20 pure points a win or you get promoted. In this case, the active player - as he gets better - receives much more points. However, it is indeed true that a player with 100 wins can have the same points as a player with 1000. It is also true that it is more efficient to ladder when you wait for bonus. However, you are also stagnated in the league and won't go up into plat/diamond/masters or whatever, and the active player will improve due to the sheer fact that he is getting more experience, and eventually will get promoted. So, if you want points, play 2 games a day. If you want a promotion, 20 games a day. Yea, you're kinda right. But then what is the point of the ladder? A ladder is supposed to be a competition, points are supposed to be the reflection of the players skill. That isn't the case. Like with my example earlier: RevDime 1,869 437 393 52.65% SolidControL 1,870 151 140 51.89% I bet you those two players are pretty similar in skill and are both ranked in the top 50 masters players in NA. But why should one of them who played 800 games with a higher win % be ranked lower than someone who only played 300 games with a lower win%? That is not 65% at all. The bonus pool doesnt change anything at 99.9% levels of play, the only time it matters is top 10 ladder where you lose 20+ points for a loss and only win 4 points for a win. In that circumstance there is no reason why you should play without bonus pool because a whole game for 4 points is a waste of time and the risk is too high. The other time it matters is at rock bottom win trading when no one cares about points anyway because they are icon farming.
I think you read it wrong. It's 437-389 which is 52.65%, not 65.
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On June 30 2011 00:40 shinyA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 00:28 Zephirdd wrote:On June 30 2011 00:19 shinyA wrote:On June 30 2011 00:15 Gnax wrote:On June 30 2011 00:10 Erasme wrote:On June 30 2011 00:04 Gnax wrote:On June 29 2011 23:49 shinyA wrote:On June 29 2011 23:26 Gnax wrote:On June 29 2011 23:22 shinyA wrote:
My problem with bonus pool is that it doesn't motivate players to play more, it only motivates them to play enough to keep their bonus pool low. It doesn't reward mass games, it actually rewards fewer games which shouldn't be the case.
If I play 1000 games in the first month of a ladder reset with a decent win percentage say I have 1500 points. After that month someone else starts laddering, has an inflated bonus pool, will have the same amount of points as me after just 100 games. That doesn't reward or motivate players to play more it actually does the opposite. Wow you're not very good at math. If he starts laddering when you have 1500 points and he has 1500 bonus pool it means he will have 1500 points and 0 bonus pool when you have 1500 points and 1500 bonus pool. Unless you constantly ladder then you will have around 3000 points when he has 1500. Wrong. The numbers I used were figurative and have nothing to do with the point made. There was no math involved in my argument. The bottom line was, I would play 1000 games and be ranked as the same as someone who plays 100 games. During my month of play my bonus pool would have run out long before the end of the month meaning that I wouldn't be gaining near as many points as the person who doesn't start playing until after that month, with a huge bonus pool. I would continue playing even while he's playing still and he will always be equal to my points as long as he keeps abusing the bonus pool and I keep on playing a lot. Why do you keep failing so much? if your bonus pool runs out you already "abused" bonus pool more than the guy who didn't play has. And when he starts playing he "abuses" it the way you already did until he catches up with you. Still wrong. Everybody have the same amount of bp. Even if they start 2months after everyone. Why do you keep failing so much ? Sir. First of all, I was never wrong in this thread, so you can't say I am still wrong. Secondly I have been saying the same thing you just said, so you say I'm wrong and then you echo what I've said. That is probably the ultimate fail right there. No, you're a moron and have been wrong in every post. You keep saying that everyone has the same amount of BP therefore it will even out eventually. But you can't seem to comprehend that when a player plays when he doesn't have bonus pool he hardly gains anything more than he loses. So two players of equal WL% but one plays every day and the other only plays when he has bonus pool, the player who only plays with bonus pool will have the same amount as the guy player every day. SO one player can have 1000 games and be at the same points as someone who only plays out their bonus pool and has 100 games. That, of course, is only true when the gives conditions occur: - All of the games are giving and removing the same amount of points for both players compared - Player A(the one with more games) NEVER gets better/ALWAYS ALWAYS will receive the same points(sry for repeating the first point) - Player B(the one that waits for the bonus pool) NEVER players with 0 bonus The thing is, the system won't work that way. As you get better, ladder starts varying the points. There is a point where you are either receiving +20 pure points a win or you get promoted. In this case, the active player - as he gets better - receives much more points. However, it is indeed true that a player with 100 wins can have the same points as a player with 1000. It is also true that it is more efficient to ladder when you wait for bonus. However, you are also stagnated in the league and won't go up into plat/diamond/masters or whatever, and the active player will improve due to the sheer fact that he is getting more experience, and eventually will get promoted. So, if you want points, play 2 games a day. If you want a promotion, 20 games a day. Yea, you're kinda right. But then what is the point of the ladder? A ladder is supposed to be a competition, points are supposed to be the reflection of the players skill. That isn't the case. Like with my example earlier: RevDime 1,869 437 393 52.65% SolidControL 1,870 151 140 51.89% I bet you those two players are pretty similar in skill and are both ranked in the top 50 masters players in NA. But why should one of them who played 800 games with a higher win % be ranked lower than someone who only played 300 games with a lower win%?
Because it is likely that solid improved faster than revdime
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United States12248 Posts
Formulating a more constructive post this time.
Bonus pool has two very specific intentions:
1. It's a disguised decay mechanism. Rather than directly penalizing players who don't play, bonus pool indirectly penalizes inactive players. So, instead of inactive players' points gravitating toward zero like they would in War3, those players just miss out on free points. This keeps the rankings just as accurate as a true decay system (and arguably moreso because there's more granularity).
2. It encourages players to play because hey, free points. Being able to earn up to double your points for a win feels good. Typically, only around the top 8 or 10 players in any given division have used up their entire bonus pool.
VTPerfect is also correct. For players who are still earning 12+12 bonus for a win and -12 for a loss, once their bonus pool runs out, their points stagnate. That's okay, because all that means is that you've used up all your "free" points and your skill hasn't actually been improving (more accurately, it hasn't been improving more rapidly than your peers). For players who are earning 15+15 bonus for a win and -9 for a loss, their points will still be going up even without any bonus. It's not until you reach a point where your points are much higher than any valid opponent's MMR (like at the tip-top of GM league where players earn 3+3 or 4+4 points or lose 20) that "saving up" bonus pool becomes a viable strategy because the risk is so great.
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If someone has the same rank (I.E. 1000) and has 150 bonus points, and you have zero. It means he has won more than you, becasue you got equal number of bonus points but you ended up using more for same rank.
So if somenoe has same rank, with more bonus, they are higher rank obviously since its not like anyone gets an advantage of bonus points
leave it, its fine.
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The points have absolutely no meaning to your actual ranking, they are just a way to make you feel special that you have X amount of points. There is no reason to actually remove them.
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I'm not sure why we are really arguing about this. Bonus pool exists solely to allow people who are not able to play often the ability to maintain their division rank. If bonus accrues the same for everyone then everyone will receive 84 points per week or 12 a day. That means that players who receives 12 points for a win (24 for bonus) and 6 for a loss, has a 50% win rate, and plays 1 game a day can be represented by the equation 3.5W-3.5L=P, where W=win points, L=loss points, B=Bonus, and P=Points.
Such a player should gain approximately 63 points per week if they maintain 7 games. If a player waits till the end of the week, when the bonus pool is full then they would have an 84 point bonus pool saved as opposed to spending it during the week. The player then proceeds to play his 7 games at 50% giving him....63 points. Such a player represents someone who is active and spends out their entire bonus pool during the week.
Now we have our player B who thinks that saving up his bonus will inflate his points. Such a player waits three whole weeks before laddering thus bumping up his bonus pool to a whopping 252 points! He then sits down and starts playing games at a 50% win rate. He plays 21 games thus spending out his bonus pool and having a record of 10.5w10.5L. This changes our equation slightly to 10.5W-10.5L=P. Player B in one night of gaming has amassed 189 points! This oddly enough is the exact same as the other player who diligently plays out his bonus pool every day. 63 points per week X 3 weeks...can you see where I'm going here??? If not it's 189 points.
This means that two players who play the same number of games and are of the same skill level each receive the SAME number of points no matter when they ladder so long as their win rate stays the same.
Now say that our first player plays 2 extra games per week that don't have bonus pool because he likes to play mass games...That player will gain +6 points per week bringing his total to 207. The player who waits and just plays out his bonus pool will never be able to catch the player who does this unless he also begins to play games that do not include bonus pool and maintains his win rate.
So if you have a two players with similar win rates then they player who plays the most will always have more points meaning that when I get back from the beach I can play out my bonus pool and put myself back up where I belong, which would still be below the people who play more and have the same or better win rate as me.
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On June 30 2011 00:58 ronpaul012 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 00:08 Mendelfist wrote:On June 30 2011 00:02 ronpaul012 wrote:
While 45% win ratio isn't very good, its still possible to be top 25 in your league as long as your active. No, it isn't, unless you are in bronze. With a 45% win ratio you will get demoted to a lower league after a while. woah, i'm not so sure about that. I've been keeping track of wins and losses personally and i'm a plat player with about 57% win ratio. Using your theory of a 5% off of 50 would a demotion/promotion I would be diamond. I dont think 45% is low enough, as long as there mmr is staying high enough. If everybody below a 50% win ratio would be moved down then ladder would be going crazy.
With 45% win ratio I mean the average of your latest games, not the total. The total is irrelevant. You cannot have 57% win ratio in e.g. your latest 50 games forever and stay in platinum. It will inevitably move to 50% or you will be promoted.
My point was that many people are somewhere between a 45-50% win ratio in the ladder. For all of those players, they would be at the same ranking,
They wouldn't. Without bonus pool your points converges to your MMR, if we disregard division and league offsets.
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You actually earn more points if you don't let your bonus pool stack up so its not really a bigdeal. And everybody uses the same amount of points in their bonus pool. Just because you use the points faster doesn't mean that people who let it build up have any sort of an advantage
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I don't have a problem with bonus pool. I see your point but in the end the ladder is practice.. why people take their rank so seriously, especially below masters.. blows my mind. it's not like you're gonna win a prize for being rank 1 bronze (or any league on the ladder for that matter) so why make a fuss about someone who sits on their pool and then can't be caught, doesn't represent their skill level.
rank 1 in my bronze div has about 2k points and has been inactive forever.. that's not going to effect anyone getting promoted.
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Without the bonus pool, the points at which youre at would mean alot more. I feel like alot of people wait for their bonus pool to increase so its easier to climb the ladder points. I think we should get rid of them. I think im the only one in my division (top 5) that doesnt wait for bonus pool to add up.
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All that really matters is that bonus pool can't be abused. An inactive player will advance more quickly in fewer games but they have no edge on someone of equal skill level who's been depleting their pool daily. If you disagree with this then you've failed to understand the system and should really stop complaining. It's there to cause point inflation and that's about it.
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i think they should distribute bonus points a little slower. poor kiwikaki is at risk of losing his #1 grand master spot because he only earns +3(+3) per game and has to stay under 180... although he has a ridiculous win ratio he has to play 20 games to spend 60 bonus points...if he wins all of them..
but yeah i used to try in the ladder, but like you said losing streaks kill you. so now i just chill with 100+ bonus points although am only ranked 20th when i should be top 10, maybe even top 8 :/
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Winning a game with bonus pool 30-40 points gained, winning with no bonus points 8 ish gained?
But if you lose a game regardless of bonus pool u lose 8-18? depending on being favorite or not. what i want personally is just standard points.
Win = 8 points
Loss = 8 points
Then you dont have stupid numbers and for example in grandmasters, you dont drop 10-20 places for losing 1 game and have to win 3-5 games again to get back to where u were.
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On June 30 2011 01:59 YarNhoj wrote:So if you have a two players with similar win rates then they player who plays the most will always have more points meaning that when I get back from the beach I can play out my bonus pool and put myself back up where I belong, which would still be below the people who play more and have the same or better win rate as me.
The only reason you need to "get back where you belong" is because the ones who have been playing have spent their bonus pool. Without bonus pool you wouldn't need to "get back where you belong". The bonus pool is punishing you for not playing. It's not helping you.
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On June 29 2011 23:26 mordek wrote:
A lot of my friends talk about what rank they are in Bronze or Silver. I don't tell them this but all that means is they've played more games at the Bronze/Silver level than other people in the league. I guess in Bronze if you never win the rank could mean something too...
This depends a lot on the division. In all leagues, there are some divisions where everyone uses all their bonus pool.
In fact, among players who keep their bonus pool near 0, which can be anywhere from the top few to the top 20 in a low-league division, ladder rankings should approximate MMR rankings pretty closely because of how the "favored" system works.
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EPT
