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On June 29 2011 23:22 shinyA wrote:
My problem with bonus pool is that it doesn't motivate players to play more, it only motivates them to play enough to keep their bonus pool low. It doesn't reward mass games, it actually rewards fewer games which shouldn't be the case.
If I play 1000 games in the first month of a ladder reset with a decent win percentage say I have 1500 points. After that month someone else starts laddering, has an inflated bonus pool, will have the same amount of points as me after just 100 games. That doesn't reward or motivate players to play more it actually does the opposite.
Wow you're not very good at math. If he starts laddering when you have 1500 points and he has 1500 bonus pool it means he will have 1500 points and 0 bonus pool when you have 1500 points and 1500 bonus pool. Unless you constantly ladder then you will have around 3000 points when he has 1500.
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On June 29 2011 23:21 Gnax wrote:
If you want bonus pool removed you're officially stupid. The only thing bonus pool does is motivate casual players to play ladder. And what that does is decrease the time you have to wait to find a ladder game. There is absolutely no negative effect on anything.
Having 0 bonus pool and playing ladder doesn't give you any disadvantage over someone who plays with 1000 bonus pool. If you have 0 bonus pool it means you have more points than the guy with 1000 bonus pool will ever get from bonus pool alone.
I was going to say something along these lines. The only people who care about what rank they are in the ladder are the people who care about points. For those people that understand your rank really doesn't mean jacksquat unless you're in master's or grandmaster's, the bonus pool is just something that gives you bigger green numbers when you win a game.
A lot of my friends talk about what rank they are in Bronze or Silver. I don't tell them this but all that means is they've played more games at the Bronze/Silver level than other people in the league. I guess in Bronze if you never win the rank could mean something too...
Anyways, having fun and getting better should be the motivators. Bonus pool makes a more tangible reward for these things. Getting promoted to a higher league should be the more real tangible reward to show you are improving.
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The incentive should be to move up in your division. Personally, I lose a lot of that incentive when I know a big part of moving up in my division is just a matter of playing more games, not playing better.
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I have 1,200 bonus pool. Not being able to have an actual ladder rank until I burn through that (roughly 240 games) prevents me from giving a damn about my ladder rank. I wouldn't miss it if it was gone.
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yea it should be removed <3
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Not to sound insensitive… but you had a bad losing streak and you're upset you're not in the top 8 anymore?
Sounds like winning would solve your problem to be honest.
At the end of the day there’s not a whole lot you can do to control your ranking. How upset would you be if you finally made it to first place.. and then someone gets demoted or promoted from a different league and is placed into your league…but has enough points to bump you out of first? Will you make a thread about how people shouldn’t be moved into new leagues?
I think you should be more concentrated on moving up in leagues vs. your placement in your division.. considering most people in the divisions are pretty inactive anyways.
Besides if you start winning more your placement will take care of itself.
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I dont play everyday, so I love having the bonus pool to catch up.
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Bonus pool does more good than bad.
Just to use up the bonus bool, you need about 1 win per day, so you play roughly 14 (or 15) games per week, assuming your MMR is correct and you have a 50% win chance.
This is more than the average player plays. He gets motivated to play. Regular player's don't need motivation as they play regularly. Even if you get out of Top-8 for a while, the bonus pool will get you back in if you belong in the Top-8.
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Their entire ladder system/ranking is stupid anyway.
They should switch to an iccup style, where you can directly see how many points you are away from plat/B+, and each win earns the same number of points based on your opponent's ranking.
Blizzard's system seems really random with how many points you gain/lose.
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On June 29 2011 23:18 cyrex wrote:From my understanding, your bonus pool accumulates equally. Everyone gets 12 points a day. Not just when you aren't playing. The only reason it gets bigger when you aren't playing is because you haven't used it up as you get the points. There is no benefit at all to letting your pool build up and if you wait too long and let it cap out, you will fall behind where you could be. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Battle.net_Leagues#Bonus_PoolSource
If you could win one 12 points game a day, would you win it in the beginning of the day, when your BP is 2, or near the end, when your BP is 12?
Also, if you could win only two games in two days, would you win both in the first day earning 12 bonus or one in each day, winning 24 bonus?
Yes, it is good to hold games until your bonus goes up, if what you are looking for are points.
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I really don't like it, I'm not gonna lie.
If they did remove it however, the system would fail.
It's a sort of necessary pain in the ass, voted I don't care.
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On June 29 2011 23:26 Gnax wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 23:22 shinyA wrote:
My problem with bonus pool is that it doesn't motivate players to play more, it only motivates them to play enough to keep their bonus pool low. It doesn't reward mass games, it actually rewards fewer games which shouldn't be the case.
If I play 1000 games in the first month of a ladder reset with a decent win percentage say I have 1500 points. After that month someone else starts laddering, has an inflated bonus pool, will have the same amount of points as me after just 100 games. That doesn't reward or motivate players to play more it actually does the opposite. Wow you're not very good at math. If he starts laddering when you have 1500 points and he has 1500 bonus pool it means he will have 1500 points and 0 bonus pool when you have 1500 points and 1500 bonus pool. Unless you constantly ladder then you will have around 3000 points when he has 1500.
Wrong.
The numbers I used were figurative and have nothing to do with the point made. There was no math involved in my argument.
The bottom line was, I would play 1000 games and be ranked as the same as someone who plays 100 games.
During my month of play my bonus pool would have run out long before the end of the month meaning that I wouldn't be gaining near as many points as the person who doesn't start playing until after that month, with a huge bonus pool. I would continue playing even while he's playing still and he will always be equal to my points as long as he keeps abusing the bonus pool and I keep on playing a lot.
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My problem with bonus pool is that it doesn't motivate players to play more, it only motivates them to play enough to keep their bonus pool low. It doesn't reward mass games, it actually rewards fewer games which shouldn't be the case.
If I play 1000 games in the first month of a ladder reset with a decent win percentage say I have 1500 points. After that month someone else starts laddering, has an inflated bonus pool, will have the same amount of points as me after just 100 games. That doesn't reward or motivate players to play more it actually does the opposite.
It's funny, the person above me says "you're officially stupid if you want bonus pool removed because it motivates the casual player to play" but that makes no sense. The casual player is actually persuaded to play less. They know playing over their bonus pool will risk losing more points so they will play only to keep the advantage of bonus pool. If there is no bonus pool they would be motivated to play more to keep up with other players. A system that rewards mass gaming is what motivates people to mass game. Logically a system that rewards minimal play cannot motivate more play.
If I know that I have a better chance of keeping my points high by not playing, why would I play more? First of all the argument in favor of bonus pool, which is for the casual gamer, would imply that the casual gamer cares a lot about points. If that's the case, like I have said then there is no reason for them to ever play past their bonus pool. But I would argue that if you're a casual player then you play for fun and should not care about points. But when you have a factor such as bonus pool it puts more emphasis on points which would, in my opinion, discourage mass gaming.
Take a ladder system like ICC for example, mass gamers are rewarded and those who don't play a lot won't get a high rank. How is that not how it should be? Why should someone who plays at the very end of a season be the same rank as someone who's play 10 times as many games?
Not to mention Bonus Pool makes no real skill bars, points are only important for whatever is the current time. 1000 points in the first few weeks is a cool thing but a couple weeks after that it's nothing. In a system like ICC points are a reflection of skill, if you're A+ you're one of the best players, but that's a set rank where other players of the same rank are equally skilled. When I play a game and I see +20 points I want that to mean something, as should everyone else, casual and competitive alike.
Edited my previous post and added more, so people don't quote the small bit I had before.
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The fact Kiwikaki can be North America GM first place with only 250~ games played is pretty ridiculous
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On June 29 2011 23:46 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 23:18 cyrex wrote:From my understanding, your bonus pool accumulates equally. Everyone gets 12 points a day. Not just when you aren't playing. The only reason it gets bigger when you aren't playing is because you haven't used it up as you get the points. There is no benefit at all to letting your pool build up and if you wait too long and let it cap out, you will fall behind where you could be. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Battle.net_Leagues#Bonus_PoolSource If you could win one 12 points game a day, would you win it in the beginning of the day, when your BP is 2, or near the end, when your BP is 12? Also, if you could win only two games in two days, would you win both in the first day earning 12 bonus or one in each day, winning 24 bonus? Yes, it is good to hold games until your bonus goes up, if what you are looking for are points.
I'm sorry, how does that matter unless you decide to uninstall starcraft after those two wins for some reason.
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On June 29 2011 23:17 Morphs wrote:
There should be some way to decay inactive players on the ladder. Two options here: decrease points at a steady rate or increase points at a steady rate. The first option prevents a bonus pool from filling up but at the same time also eats up the "skill points" which you don't want.
The current system can be improved though. Now the bonus pool greatly distorts the real ranking of someone. Say I have 1000 ladder points with no bonus pool. Someone else has 950 ladder points but has 150 bonus pool remaining. That makes a huge difference and really, it SUCKS to have to click on everyones profile on the ladder to get a sense of his/her skill points.
There should be a way to quickly see the "skill points" of a player. Like a button on the ladder screen that when clicked, substracts all bonus pool of the season from his/her current ladder points or adds the bonus pool to that player. That way you can see who is actually playing better/worse then you.
I'd have the first option (substracting) since it's more accurate, but negative values make people stop playing so Blizzard will never do that. And I think everything is too much work for them so this thread is kinda useless.
Still... they should allow more statistics for diamond/master/grandmaster players.
For a simple fix, I wouldn't mind if the bonus pool accrued at half the current rate.
But it doesn't necessarily have to take effect immediately (as in immediate after they become inactive). What's wrong with just having different seasons?
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stop caring about points/ranks
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On June 29 2011 23:31 Amber[LighT] wrote:
I dont play everyday, so I love having the bonus pool to catch up.
I wonder how many voted "no" because of misunderstandings like this. If there was no bonus pool you wouldn't have to catch up in the first place.
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On June 29 2011 23:00 koveras wrote:
In my league the number one player has played 80 games and has about 1500 ranked points and he has been inactive in ranked now for quite some time without anyone challenging him in our league. Last night I had a pretty bad losing streak and got kicked out of the top 8. Now im doubting if I should rank again or just wait for my bonus pool to fill up.
Excuse me for being blunt, but why the fuck do you even care about this? Your rank means nothing. Your division means nothing. Your points mean nothing. That's it. The entire system you're wanting to 'game' means nothing. Nothing will be gained and nothing will be lost regardless of what you do. The only thing that matters is if you improve and get to play better and better opponents. Maybe hitting masters league is cool too so you can see your loss record, but meh, it'll be about 50% no matter what you do. Just forget about everything the system tells you. It's better that way than trying to force out some useless information out of it to compare yourself with others.
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Bonus pool is mostly for blizzard to get you to play more. It encourages casual players and people that go on breaks/vacation/rotate games for a while to keep playing since they earn more points. And though there are people that have no bonus pool, the thing is those people are consistently playing the game. This way blizzard gets as many people playing the game on ladder as they can.
It also is used a lot for grandmasters to keep pros active on ladder. For me, I like to keep around a low bonus pool 0-100 and spend it all every once in a while, but I dont really like to play with no bonus pool. I guess I'm somewhat casual but I mostly play 1v1 and am masters though.
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EPT
